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United States4883 Posts
On September 19 2013 23:15 hipo wrote:
Nice guide!
A few games you might want to add to your guide:
- Sos vs Parting on Akilon in PL R6 [WJS vs SKT] (both players open 2gate FE)
- Dear vs Trust on Akilon in PL R6 [STX vs CJ] (vs 1gate FE)
Slight variation of the build (1 stalker into 2 sentries before Nexus):
- Wooki vs Trap on Newkirk Precint in PL R6 [STX vs KT] (Wooki actually lost vs fast DT + 4gate)
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xL7qiv4dylk Can't find 3rd game, but that's fine
Thank you so much for these excellent games! I'll see if I can get them edited into the OP! MC also does odd variations of this build all the time, doing things like going stalker -> stalker/sentry -> sentry + nexus -> 2 stalkers and weird shit lol. I also consider all builds that get a robo before nexus to be a part of this same vein, just slightly safer.
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I've seen this build a few times (or slight variants) on the ladder. I've never actually tried it.
One of the biggest issues I feel it has is that it is fairly easy to identify (msc and sentry first, 2nd gate). Once I identify it with a probe scout, I just 1 gate FE and go for super greedy play. I know I can get away with it because the two gates don't provide a lot of offensive potential since it is designed around holding early pressure. From there I can do several timings (colossus or immortal/archon/chargelot), because I'll be ahead on tech and econ from early on.
Not scouting early means this can basically always be punished with greedy expo play, since you don't really know exactly what I'm doing (only that I don't have proxies). I feel like this needs an aggressive variant to punish 1 gate FEs (and an earlier scout).
Maybe my opponents just aren't doing it right, but I don't see this lasting that long once people realize they can just out-greed it.
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Italy12246 Posts
Not everyone probe scouts while having the opportunity to adjust their build in time though. In fact,it's common to either don't scout or scout so late all they are looking for is the spawning postion of the opponent, rather than some clue to change their build hoping to counter something that may or may not be happening. This is especially true at higher levels of play.
The sentry+msc opening, while not very common, could easily go into tech. You invest 250 gas in early game safety as opposed to tech; this puts say a stargate as fast, say, as a 3stalker rush/msc > stargate build. It's not particularly fast but it's a possibility.
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There are plenty of sentry first openings that are 1 gate tech builds as well, so if he just scouts the sentry and mamacore (depending on his scout timing) its not rly a big tell
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On September 20 2013 00:34 HardlyNever wrote:
I've seen this build a few times (or slight variants) on the ladder. I've never actually tried it.
One of the biggest issues I feel it has is that it is fairly easy to identify (msc and sentry first, 2nd gate). Once I identify it with a probe scout, I just 1 gate FE and go for super greedy play. I know I can get away with it because the two gates don't provide a lot of offensive potential since it is designed around holding early pressure. From there I can do several timings (colossus or immortal/archon/chargelot), because I'll be ahead on tech and econ from early on.
Not scouting early means this can basically always be punished with greedy expo play, since you don't really know exactly what I'm doing (only that I don't have proxies). I feel like this needs an aggressive variant to punish 1 gate FEs (and an earlier scout).
Maybe my opponents just aren't doing it right, but I don't see this lasting that long once people realize they can just out-greed it.
adding a sg after the expand to react to a greedier build works well for me. usually you equalize or pull ahead economically. you can't really out-greed and have the same amount of gas
edit: oh, and the "3-Gate Pressure Variation" is a really good option, you are underestimating how this build's safety gives enough army to punish an out-greed attempt imho...there are lots of other transitions that i think are good too to punish out-greed response, but i wont post until i know they are viable at higher levels of play than mine
this is like the only PvP opening i ever used since WoL (only difference was i used sase's wol opening, into 2 gate expand; and also that sometimes if i scout an allin i delay the nexus)
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I vastly prefer 1 gate expo.
This build expo's so late and delays the robo so much that it's worse against those delayed pushes like blink stalkers or just some slower version of 3 gate expand. Admittedly 1 gate FE needs very good senses and adapting against something like 10 gate where this is better but overall it's the better build imo. I just don't see a real use in making 3 sentries in PvP, they are lousy combat units that get's compensate by FF but the hardest builds to stop (blink, stargate or just very fast 3 gate) all hit such that forcefields are relatively weak. FF isn't useless agianst blink but i rather just have stalker-immortal to defend it which a 1 gate FE get's up much quicker than using multiple sentries.
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United States4883 Posts
On September 20 2013 12:17 Markwerf wrote:
I vastly prefer 1 gate expo.
This build expo's so late and delays the robo so much that it's worse against those delayed pushes like blink stalkers or just some slower version of 3 gate expand. Admittedly 1 gate FE needs very good senses and adapting against something like 10 gate where this is better but overall it's the better build imo. I just don't see a real use in making 3 sentries in PvP, they are lousy combat units that get's compensate by FF but the hardest builds to stop (blink, stargate or just very fast 3 gate) all hit such that forcefields are relatively weak. FF isn't useless agianst blink but i rather just have stalker-immortal to defend it which a 1 gate FE get's up much quicker than using multiple sentries.
It's possible to do variations on this build including skipping the second set of sentries and building a faster nexus/robo or going stalker first into double sentry into double stalker (and probe scout). You're not set in stone having to go with 3 sentries if you dislike sentries.
PvP build orders aren't as rigid and unforgiving as people seem to think they are, pro players just generally take inordinate amounts of risks in this matchup. "Safety" is still a relative term in the metagame as protoss players are still trying to figure out how to take a fast expand without outright dying or falling behind against opponents that are trying increasingly risky and all-innish strategies. So take it with a grain of salt that when a PvP build is called "safe", it just means that the relative risk you're taking is small.
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There is no safe fast expanding, you always take a big risk against a good 3g pressure.
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Really enjoy these, very helpful thank you.
Hope to see many many more articles from the TL Strategy team
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Italy12246 Posts
On September 20 2013 19:11 SalvationII wrote:
There is no safe fast expanding, you always take a big risk against a good 3g pressure.
A tight expand build should be able to hold 3gate pressure actually. Imo things like 3gate/oracle are much scarier.
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On September 20 2013 20:27 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2013 19:11 SalvationII wrote:
There is no safe fast expanding, you always take a big risk against a good 3g pressure. A tight expand build should be able to hold 3gate pressure actually. Imo things like 3gate/oracle are much scarier.
if the 3gate comes of 10 gate it's really hard to hold, I think you can with 1 gate FE if your reaction is super quick and you cancel nexus, ff the ramp to buy some time till nexus cannon is ready but it's quite hard.
3 gate oracle is fairly easy to stop for FE actually unless the stargate is proxies but you should find that easily, it's another build against which less sentries is better because you can split up much easier.
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Is it possible to do this with making a Stargate instead of a robo? I really hate robo play, stargate play is so much more interesting to me. Are Voids just not good enough early on?
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Italy12246 Posts
On September 21 2013 01:28 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
Is it possible to do this with making a Stargate instead of a robo? I really hate robo play, stargate play is so much more interesting to me. Are Voids just not good enough early on?
It's possible but it's even riskier.
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Is there a better way to do stargate PvP, then? No oracle all-in nonsense, something solid.
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Italy12246 Posts
1Gate tech->3gate or 3gate -> stargate; robo if necessary, expo when safe.
Im not very expert on stargate buidls so i can't be very specific, but that'd be the general idea. The big difference from WoL is that you can hold blink allins with voids (see parting vs swagger on polar night) instead of immortals.
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Yeah, blink all ins would be my biggest concern. I lose to early pressure a lot, though, and I think it's because my build isn't all that great. Anyway, I'm getting a bit off topic for this thread. I'll try to find some VODs/replays of a good stargate build I guess.
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what must I do if I scout a stargate with void-ray production but it isn't an all-in? So the enemy expand itself and then mass void..
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On September 21 2013 04:23 DeBiA wrote:
what must I do if I scout a stargate with void-ray production but it isn't an all-in? So the enemy expand itself and then mass void..
From the Protoss Help Me thread:
Q:How do i deal with a player going heavy stargate in the midgame?
rsvp wrote:
I usually go for a 2 base timing off of 8-10 gates when blink and +1 finishes. No storm or charge yet, but I'll have 2-3 archons. If that doesn't work or he turtles too hard, then I'll try to stall his 3rd while getting my own 3rd up, and tech to storm. Just have your blink stalkers out on the map, threatening backstabs if he tries to move out. There's not much harass that you can do during the mid game while he's turtling on 2 bases/establishing his 3rd, but once it gets to late game you'll want proxy pylons and warp prisms to flood zealots into one or more of his bases as soon as he moves out.
As far as engagements go there's not much to say, I usually lead with blink stalkers to bait/get a few free shots off or maybe snipe a void ray, then go in with the rest of my army. You want to try to target fire voids with stalkers but it can be hard sometimes especially as the armies get bigger so sometimes I just a-move and focus on trying to blink back and save stalkers instead.
Storm actually does pretty well against VR, especially towards late game once armies get bigger. Mid game zealot/stalker/archon does ok as well.
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United States4883 Posts
On September 21 2013 04:23 DeBiA wrote:
what must I do if I scout a stargate with void-ray production but it isn't an all-in? So the enemy expand itself and then mass void..
As a general rule: if your opponent tries to do a void ray mid game, he has to play defensively and therefore you can expand freely. In PvP, this means that you can take your 3rd base before adding on extra gateways (so you would expand off of 3-4 gates instead of 6-8). Mid game blink transitions are good at keeping void ray armies pinned back too, but you don't HAVE to go blink. Obviously, storm is necessary later in the game.
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With all these different pressure openings being touched upon, I'm surprised the scariest one's being left out.
If your opponent goes one-gate Nexus, how does that not leave you in an atrocious position?
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EPT
