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Russian Federation603 Posts
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On September 21 2013 11:38 TLGoku wrote:
With all these different pressure openings being touched upon, I'm surprised the scariest one's being left out.
If your opponent goes one-gate Nexus, how does that not leave you in an atrocious position?
actually if you read the thread at all its brought up a ridiculously large amount of times because lots of people seem to think its a counter.
ill wait to hear people's reasoning but right now i just dont buy it. either you can punish then really hard, or if they cut probe production while nex is building, you wont be far behind in econ at all with a higher gas income in return...you can make enough extra probes before he continues probes to come out even, it depends solely on the reads you make on each other, not the BO imo. and, if he went 1g nex, u can make that read easily, while he may think you are going to be aggressive and cut probes longer 
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On September 22 2013 05:25 nath wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2013 11:38 TLGoku wrote:
With all these different pressure openings being touched upon, I'm surprised the scariest one's being left out.
If your opponent goes one-gate Nexus, how does that not leave you in an atrocious position? actually if you read the thread at all its brought up a ridiculously large amount of times because lots of people seem to think its a counter. ill wait to hear people's reasoning but right now i just dont buy it. either you can punish then really hard, or if they cut probe production while nex is building, you wont be far behind in econ at all with a higher gas income in return...you can make enough extra probes before he continues probes to come out even, it depends solely on the reads you make on each other, not the BO imo. and, if he went 1g nex, u can make that read easily, while he may think you are going to be aggressive and cut probes longer
Also, the 3 Gate Expand variation in the OP is pretty damn good at gutting 1 gate fast expand builds. If you go for it as soon as you scout his nexus, you should be able to get pretty far ahead at a minimum.
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On September 22 2013 06:11 Yonnua wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 05:25 nath wrote:On September 21 2013 11:38 TLGoku wrote:
With all these different pressure openings being touched upon, I'm surprised the scariest one's being left out.
If your opponent goes one-gate Nexus, how does that not leave you in an atrocious position? actually if you read the thread at all its brought up a ridiculously large amount of times because lots of people seem to think its a counter. ill wait to hear people's reasoning but right now i just dont buy it. either you can punish then really hard, or if they cut probe production while nex is building, you wont be far behind in econ at all with a higher gas income in return...you can make enough extra probes before he continues probes to come out even, it depends solely on the reads you make on each other, not the BO imo. and, if he went 1g nex, u can make that read easily, while he may think you are going to be aggressive and cut probes longer Also, the 3 Gate Expand variation in the OP is pretty damn good at gutting 1 gate fast expand builds. If you go for it as soon as you scout his nexus, you should be able to get pretty far ahead at a minimum.
Spare us your master league anecdotes, please. In a game where the players are not awful, how would this 2-Gate Nexus opening be able to reliably come out ahead against a 1-Gate Nexus?
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On September 22 2013 06:37 TLGoku wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 06:11 Yonnua wrote:On September 22 2013 05:25 nath wrote:On September 21 2013 11:38 TLGoku wrote:
With all these different pressure openings being touched upon, I'm surprised the scariest one's being left out.
If your opponent goes one-gate Nexus, how does that not leave you in an atrocious position? actually if you read the thread at all its brought up a ridiculously large amount of times because lots of people seem to think its a counter. ill wait to hear people's reasoning but right now i just dont buy it. either you can punish then really hard, or if they cut probe production while nex is building, you wont be far behind in econ at all with a higher gas income in return...you can make enough extra probes before he continues probes to come out even, it depends solely on the reads you make on each other, not the BO imo. and, if he went 1g nex, u can make that read easily, while he may think you are going to be aggressive and cut probes longer Also, the 3 Gate Expand variation in the OP is pretty damn good at gutting 1 gate fast expand builds. If you go for it as soon as you scout his nexus, you should be able to get pretty far ahead at a minimum. Spare us your master league anecdotes, please. In a game where the players are not awful, how would this 2-Gate Nexus opening be able to reliably come out ahead against a 1-Gate Nexus?
And how can a 1 Gate Nexus survive a 4 Gate Phoenix all-in..?
There are no safe builds in PvP, stop posting as if there is a solution.
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On September 22 2013 10:10 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 06:37 TLGoku wrote:On September 22 2013 06:11 Yonnua wrote:On September 22 2013 05:25 nath wrote:On September 21 2013 11:38 TLGoku wrote:
With all these different pressure openings being touched upon, I'm surprised the scariest one's being left out.
If your opponent goes one-gate Nexus, how does that not leave you in an atrocious position? actually if you read the thread at all its brought up a ridiculously large amount of times because lots of people seem to think its a counter. ill wait to hear people's reasoning but right now i just dont buy it. either you can punish then really hard, or if they cut probe production while nex is building, you wont be far behind in econ at all with a higher gas income in return...you can make enough extra probes before he continues probes to come out even, it depends solely on the reads you make on each other, not the BO imo. and, if he went 1g nex, u can make that read easily, while he may think you are going to be aggressive and cut probes longer Also, the 3 Gate Expand variation in the OP is pretty damn good at gutting 1 gate fast expand builds. If you go for it as soon as you scout his nexus, you should be able to get pretty far ahead at a minimum. Spare us your master league anecdotes, please. In a game where the players are not awful, how would this 2-Gate Nexus opening be able to reliably come out ahead against a 1-Gate Nexus? And how can a 1 Gate Nexus survive a 4 Gate Phoenix all-in..? There are no safe builds in PvP, stop posting as if there is a solution.
I wasn't even aware I was posting as if there were a solution. Thank you very much for enlightening me! I will refrain from such nonsense in the future.
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On September 22 2013 10:34 TLGoku wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 10:10 Sated wrote:On September 22 2013 06:37 TLGoku wrote:On September 22 2013 06:11 Yonnua wrote:On September 22 2013 05:25 nath wrote:On September 21 2013 11:38 TLGoku wrote:
With all these different pressure openings being touched upon, I'm surprised the scariest one's being left out.
If your opponent goes one-gate Nexus, how does that not leave you in an atrocious position? actually if you read the thread at all its brought up a ridiculously large amount of times because lots of people seem to think its a counter. ill wait to hear people's reasoning but right now i just dont buy it. either you can punish then really hard, or if they cut probe production while nex is building, you wont be far behind in econ at all with a higher gas income in return...you can make enough extra probes before he continues probes to come out even, it depends solely on the reads you make on each other, not the BO imo. and, if he went 1g nex, u can make that read easily, while he may think you are going to be aggressive and cut probes longer Also, the 3 Gate Expand variation in the OP is pretty damn good at gutting 1 gate fast expand builds. If you go for it as soon as you scout his nexus, you should be able to get pretty far ahead at a minimum. Spare us your master league anecdotes, please. In a game where the players are not awful, how would this 2-Gate Nexus opening be able to reliably come out ahead against a 1-Gate Nexus? And how can a 1 Gate Nexus survive a 4 Gate Phoenix all-in..? There are no safe builds in PvP, stop posting as if there is a solution. I wasn't even aware I was posting as if there were a solution. Thank you very much for enlightening me! I will refrain from such nonsense in the future.
You, and a lot of other people, are posting in this thread to state that this build is at a disadvantage against x build. However, the fact is that x build will also be countered by some other build, because that's just how PvP works. Posting as if this build is bad because it has a counter is quite silly, and shows a complete lack of understanding as to how PvP works...
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On September 22 2013 10:52 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 10:34 TLGoku wrote:On September 22 2013 10:10 Sated wrote:On September 22 2013 06:37 TLGoku wrote:On September 22 2013 06:11 Yonnua wrote:On September 22 2013 05:25 nath wrote:On September 21 2013 11:38 TLGoku wrote:
With all these different pressure openings being touched upon, I'm surprised the scariest one's being left out.
If your opponent goes one-gate Nexus, how does that not leave you in an atrocious position? actually if you read the thread at all its brought up a ridiculously large amount of times because lots of people seem to think its a counter. ill wait to hear people's reasoning but right now i just dont buy it. either you can punish then really hard, or if they cut probe production while nex is building, you wont be far behind in econ at all with a higher gas income in return...you can make enough extra probes before he continues probes to come out even, it depends solely on the reads you make on each other, not the BO imo. and, if he went 1g nex, u can make that read easily, while he may think you are going to be aggressive and cut probes longer Also, the 3 Gate Expand variation in the OP is pretty damn good at gutting 1 gate fast expand builds. If you go for it as soon as you scout his nexus, you should be able to get pretty far ahead at a minimum. Spare us your master league anecdotes, please. In a game where the players are not awful, how would this 2-Gate Nexus opening be able to reliably come out ahead against a 1-Gate Nexus? And how can a 1 Gate Nexus survive a 4 Gate Phoenix all-in..? There are no safe builds in PvP, stop posting as if there is a solution. I wasn't even aware I was posting as if there were a solution. Thank you very much for enlightening me! I will refrain from such nonsense in the future. You, and a lot of other people, are posting in this thread to state that this build is at a disadvantage against x build. However, the fact is that x build will also be countered by some other build, because that's just how PvP works. Posting as if this build is bad because it has a counter is quite silly, and shows a complete lack of understanding as to how PvP works...
Your reading comprehension is as poor as you presume to proclame my understanding of PvP is.
User was warned for this post
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On September 22 2013 10:54 TLGoku wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 10:52 Sated wrote:On September 22 2013 10:34 TLGoku wrote:On September 22 2013 10:10 Sated wrote:On September 22 2013 06:37 TLGoku wrote:On September 22 2013 06:11 Yonnua wrote:On September 22 2013 05:25 nath wrote:On September 21 2013 11:38 TLGoku wrote:
With all these different pressure openings being touched upon, I'm surprised the scariest one's being left out.
If your opponent goes one-gate Nexus, how does that not leave you in an atrocious position? actually if you read the thread at all its brought up a ridiculously large amount of times because lots of people seem to think its a counter. ill wait to hear people's reasoning but right now i just dont buy it. either you can punish then really hard, or if they cut probe production while nex is building, you wont be far behind in econ at all with a higher gas income in return...you can make enough extra probes before he continues probes to come out even, it depends solely on the reads you make on each other, not the BO imo. and, if he went 1g nex, u can make that read easily, while he may think you are going to be aggressive and cut probes longer Also, the 3 Gate Expand variation in the OP is pretty damn good at gutting 1 gate fast expand builds. If you go for it as soon as you scout his nexus, you should be able to get pretty far ahead at a minimum. Spare us your master league anecdotes, please. In a game where the players are not awful, how would this 2-Gate Nexus opening be able to reliably come out ahead against a 1-Gate Nexus? And how can a 1 Gate Nexus survive a 4 Gate Phoenix all-in..? There are no safe builds in PvP, stop posting as if there is a solution. I wasn't even aware I was posting as if there were a solution. Thank you very much for enlightening me! I will refrain from such nonsense in the future. You, and a lot of other people, are posting in this thread to state that this build is at a disadvantage against x build. However, the fact is that x build will also be countered by some other build, because that's just how PvP works. Posting as if this build is bad because it has a counter is quite silly, and shows a complete lack of understanding as to how PvP works... Your reading comprehension is as poor as you presume to proclame my understanding of PvP is.
You can't even spell "proclaim" and you presume to lecture me on my English skills..? Cute kid...
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On September 22 2013 11:03 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 10:54 TLGoku wrote:On September 22 2013 10:52 Sated wrote:On September 22 2013 10:34 TLGoku wrote:On September 22 2013 10:10 Sated wrote:On September 22 2013 06:37 TLGoku wrote:On September 22 2013 06:11 Yonnua wrote:On September 22 2013 05:25 nath wrote:On September 21 2013 11:38 TLGoku wrote:
With all these different pressure openings being touched upon, I'm surprised the scariest one's being left out.
If your opponent goes one-gate Nexus, how does that not leave you in an atrocious position? actually if you read the thread at all its brought up a ridiculously large amount of times because lots of people seem to think its a counter. ill wait to hear people's reasoning but right now i just dont buy it. either you can punish then really hard, or if they cut probe production while nex is building, you wont be far behind in econ at all with a higher gas income in return...you can make enough extra probes before he continues probes to come out even, it depends solely on the reads you make on each other, not the BO imo. and, if he went 1g nex, u can make that read easily, while he may think you are going to be aggressive and cut probes longer Also, the 3 Gate Expand variation in the OP is pretty damn good at gutting 1 gate fast expand builds. If you go for it as soon as you scout his nexus, you should be able to get pretty far ahead at a minimum. Spare us your master league anecdotes, please. In a game where the players are not awful, how would this 2-Gate Nexus opening be able to reliably come out ahead against a 1-Gate Nexus? And how can a 1 Gate Nexus survive a 4 Gate Phoenix all-in..? There are no safe builds in PvP, stop posting as if there is a solution. I wasn't even aware I was posting as if there were a solution. Thank you very much for enlightening me! I will refrain from such nonsense in the future. You, and a lot of other people, are posting in this thread to state that this build is at a disadvantage against x build. However, the fact is that x build will also be countered by some other build, because that's just how PvP works. Posting as if this build is bad because it has a counter is quite silly, and shows a complete lack of understanding as to how PvP works... Your reading comprehension is as poor as you presume to proclame my understanding of PvP is. You can't even spell "proclaim" and you presume to lecture me on my English skills..? Cute kid...
Yet again, you fail to realize what's going on. I'm not lecturing you on your English skills. Srsly, though, this is going nowhere. You have issues.
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United States4481 Posts
On September 22 2013 06:37 TLGoku wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 06:11 Yonnua wrote:On September 22 2013 05:25 nath wrote:On September 21 2013 11:38 TLGoku wrote:
With all these different pressure openings being touched upon, I'm surprised the scariest one's being left out.
If your opponent goes one-gate Nexus, how does that not leave you in an atrocious position? actually if you read the thread at all its brought up a ridiculously large amount of times because lots of people seem to think its a counter. ill wait to hear people's reasoning but right now i just dont buy it. either you can punish then really hard, or if they cut probe production while nex is building, you wont be far behind in econ at all with a higher gas income in return...you can make enough extra probes before he continues probes to come out even, it depends solely on the reads you make on each other, not the BO imo. and, if he went 1g nex, u can make that read easily, while he may think you are going to be aggressive and cut probes longer Also, the 3 Gate Expand variation in the OP is pretty damn good at gutting 1 gate fast expand builds. If you go for it as soon as you scout his nexus, you should be able to get pretty far ahead at a minimum. Spare us your master league anecdotes, please. In a game where the players are not awful, how would this 2-Gate Nexus opening be able to reliably come out ahead against a 1-Gate Nexus?
The 3-gate opening is a fairly reliable way to put pressure on your opponent and equalize the economies of both players. I wouldn't say it puts you "pretty far ahead" unless you manage to kill the nexus. Otherwise you're just stabilizing. However, the 3-gate pressure is not the only way to catch back up; you can go early forge, fake a push, and still be in a good position. There are also a number of mid game tactics that can help you equalize (immortal drops, warp prism harassment, blink stalkers).
To address playing against a 1-gate nexus specifically, you ARE playing at a disadvantage. The point of this build is not to be good against everything, it's to minimize risks and take a more middle-of-the-road approach. The key is that instead of auto-losing to certain builds, you end at a disadvantage in the worst case scenario. Originally I named this build "Rain's 2-gate FE"; even though he was not the first person to use it, it fits with his playstyle the best. Again, "safe" is a relative term and doesn't mean that this build is great against anything and everything and cannot lose to anything.
Sidenote @nath: You don't actually scout the nexus until after 6:00 with this build. By the time you walk across the map, the nexus will be finished, so you can't put on SUPER early pressure (unless you just opt to poke in with a probe around 5:30 if you suspect an early nexus). However, the 3-gate pressure after expansion is a feasible option.
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In the build order, you say that your nexus starts at 5:45- but in the 3 gate pressure section, you say that 3 stalkers and a MSC reaches your natural at 5:30 and that your nexus should already be under construction.
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United States4481 Posts
On September 23 2013 07:39 xtruder wrote:
In the build order, you say that your nexus starts at 5:45- but in the 3 gate pressure section, you say that 3 stalkers and a MSC reaches your natural at 5:30 and that your nexus should already be under construction.
Apologies, "around 5:30" is an approximation. In situations where the pressure arrives promptly at 5:30, your nexus won't even start (and you can just build an extra gateway with that money), but most of the time you start it before it starts getting fired on. It all depends on how aggressive your opponent is being and whether or not you scout the pressure.
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ok i take back everything i said, i'm a retard, i defend blink all-ins with this very easy
it's a very strong and solid build, you're not even THAT far behind vs 1 gate expo, you guys should really try this out
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Russian Federation302 Posts
can anyone tell me why ppl stopped using colo and go for archon immo? i mean they could do it long ago but didnt...
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United States4481 Posts
On September 24 2013 21:13 RandomPlayer wrote:
can anyone tell me why ppl stopped using colo and go for archon immo? i mean they could do it long ago but didnt...
Immortal/archon/chargelot secures you a lot more map control and allows you to get an earlier 3rd base against colossus builds. The primary reason we're seeing immortal/archon/chargelot more now is because natural expansions are getting up sooner, meaning you can rely on heavy gateway styles (as opposed to tech-heavy styles) because you have so much more mineral income. Also, the addition of the tempest makes it not suicide to delay your colossus count; in WoL, you HAD to start colossus production early or you were dead.
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Italy11471 Posts
Archon/immortal can very easily switch into tempests while also having a superior economy and better map control.
It's still possible to go colossus, but it's used as a unit to hit a timing before your opponent can have the appropriate counter, usually.
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this build is so perfect; its so similar to the 2g fe build i always used in wol except obviously in hots its safer.
however it says not to scout til 25; but proxy 2 gate will destroy considering you aren't making a zealot and your 2nd gate will likely be started before u know (and its started before you scout)...do i just scout earlier or something? or what should i do?
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On September 27 2013 10:07 nath wrote:
this build is so perfect; its so similar to the 2g fe build i always used in wol except obviously in hots its safer.
however it says not to scout til 25; but proxy 2 gate will destroy considering you aren't making a zealot and your 2nd gate will likely be started before u know (and its started before you scout)...do i just scout earlier or something? or what should i do?
It says to scout your main and natural after gateway on 13.
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Is what's written in the OP really the best way to deal with someone who goes for a 3 Stalker Rush -> 3 Gate push with Stalkers? If I am cancelling the Nexus, getting an Immortal, and then attempting to expand with a Warp Prism then it feels like I'm massively behind by the time I try to expand. I usually go for a one base Colossus all-in instead, but that's hardly a solution!
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