Protoss vs. Protoss was one of the more controversial matchups in Wings of Liberty. From the days of nothing but four gates to the period of gigantic colossus vs. colossus wars, many people scorned Protoss vs. Protoss as the most boring and stale matchup in the game. However in Heart of the Swarm, it quickly became one of the more stable and solid matchups. With the addition of the mothership core and the viability of non-robo builds, Protoss players are safer and more flexible than they have been in the past, allowing for a huge variety of openings and builds that had previously proven impossible. Among these builds, fast expands have emerged.
One-gate expands were originally the standard for Protoss vs. Protoss fast expands, but many of them started to get punished heavily by pressure builds and all-in timings. As a result, many Protoss players have begun to expand off of two gateways instead; this variation allows a player to safely take a nexus at a reasonable time, while creating a catch-all and reactionary defense in order to transition into a stable mid game.
This guide covers a variation of the two-gate robo build that gets a nexus before robo while being safe from virtually all pressure through the use of forcefields and photon overcharge. This guide will also cover how to scout and respond to common pressure and tech plays, as well as how to transition into the mid game safely. Although less economical than some other expands, this build withstands all forms of pressure. The combination of a sentry first and MSC allows you to get away with minimal scouting while still getting a safe expansion and transitioning through robo play. For players who are just starting to get a grip on macro games and how to play PvP, this is a go-to build because of its ease and stability: glhf!
Quick Note on Replays: All linked games link to VODs. If a game is marked with a replay icon (), it can be found in the replay pack here:
This particular build revolves around getting a sentry first, followed by double stalker, followed by double sentry. This order of units is safe against virtually any early pressure. The combination of an early sentry and the MSC gives you access to forcefield and nexus cannon, which will buy you enough time to respond appropriately to any threat. The follow up stalkers and sentries further reinforce your defensive strength, and will allow you to take an early nexus while neglecting to scout your opponent's main base until 6:00 with hallucination.
This build is safe against most early pressure; as such, there is no need to scout the opponent's main base quickly. However, there are certain precautions you do need to have. After you build your first gateway, you need to scout around your main base and natural for proxies. If you scout a proxy 2-gate or a cannon rush, drop the build immediately and defend appropriately.
When your sentry pops out (~4:15), you want to send a probe scout in the opposite direction of your MSC to scout the outskirts of the map for proxies. It's important to keep this probe hidden on the map after scouting in order to build proxy pylons, which will help if you get contained, or plan on aggressively counter-attacking. This MSC and probe scout should alert you to anything like a proxy stargate or an early hidden pylon and will allow you to react accordingly. During this time, your sentry should be poised to get as much vision in front of your ramp as possible in order to spot early zealots trying to run into your main.
During this time, you should be thinking about things like:
Is my opponent going for some kind of warp gate rush?
Is my opponent trying to proxy a stargate?
Is my opponent trying to hide a twilight or dark shrine?
If I don't see anything, is my opponent fast expanding?
The MsC scouts the cliff area outside of your main, while the probe scouts the outer edges on the other side of the map
At 6:00 the first sentry should have enough energy for hallucination, so use it to scout your opponent's tech choice. Along with your proxy scouting earlier, this should give you a clear image of what your opponent is doing. This scout timing will let you know if you should build an immortal or an observer first, as well as whether or not you can skip the third gateway in favor of a faster forge.
This build stops probe production at 38 supply to build a nexus, robo, and third gateway. This timing also coincides with the 6:00 hallucination scout and leaves you with 19 probes on minerals, three on each gas, and one hiding on the map. If you scout pressure, you should cut probe production until you've defended the pressure. If you do not scout pressure, you should continue worker production and expand.
The basic setup: 3 sentries/2 stalkers
Defending Pressure
This build relies heavily on scouting the telltale signs of aggression and making appropriate changes to react to it. Between your vision coverage in the early game and your hallucination scout, you can get a fairly good idea of what your opponent is doing. This section will cover how to defend several different types of common pressure builds.
3-Gate Pressure 3-gate pressure will generally get to your natural around 5:30 with three stalkers and a MSC; in this case, your nexus will already be building and under fire. Feel free to poke at the stalkers to push them back, but don't stray too far from your ramp. Once you see additional reinforcements, make sure to stay back on your ramp and cancel the nexus if necessary. If your nexus manages to finish, use photon overcharge and push into your natural with the units that you have. If the nexus is canceled, build an additional gateway (for a total of four) and start a warp prism as soon as possible to break out of the contain.
Welmu vs. duckdeokSet 3. From WCS Europe, Ro16 (Welmu wins) State vs. ArthurSet 2. From WCS America, Challenger League, Group E (Arthur wins) Oz vs. HerOSet 1. From WCS America Ro32 (HerO wins) **NOTE: The first player mentioned in the replay links is the player executing the build
3-Gate/Oracle Pressure While there are many variations on this particular build, though generally the goal of the build is to pressure your front with stalkers, while sending an oracle into your main mineral line. Between your MSC and probe scout, as well as your hallucination scout, you should be able to spot a stargate by about 6:30. This build will generally hit your natural by 6:30 with about five stalkers and an oracle in your main mineral line. Against this you have to cancel the nexus, build an immortal, and warp in additional stalkers or zealots. It's important to place 3 stalkers in your main mineral line to deflect the oracles, while keeping your sentries near your ramp to forcefield. To break out of a contain, build a warp prism as soon as possible, and push down your ramp.
Proxy Stargate When you scout a proxy stargate with your MSC or probe, immediately pull your stalkers back to your mineral line, and build two stalkers in place of the two additional sentries. The earliest an oracle or a void ray can hit is ~5:15-5:30. While this is difficult to hold, and requires good micro or possibly a probe pull, it's possible to defend using this build. Against an oracle, expand as soon as possible, against void rays, you should continue making stalkers until you have enough energy to use photon overcharge; this should buy you enough time to get up warpgate.
Blink Stalkers Stalkers will generally walk across the map and hit you around 6:30, and blink will finish around 7:10 at the earliest. Your nexus should finish in time for you to use photon overcharge, which will push the stalkers away. During the time that photon overcharge is active, chronoboost immortals out, and warp in zealots. With immortals, zealots, and good positioning, you should be able to defend this pressure. Make sure you get a followup scout on whether or not your opponent expanded; if he does not expand, you need to keep cutting probes and continually make gateway units.
Oz vs. HerOSet 2. From WCS America, Ro32 (Oz wins)
Dark Templar DTs can hit you at 6:30-7:00, but the earliest you can get an observer using this build is 7:20. While waiting for the observer, hold position your units on the ramp (stalkers in front) and forcefield out any DTs that try to push up the ramp. Once your observer is out, you're free to walk down your ramp.
4-Gate Archon Bust If your 6:00 hallucination scout spots three or four gateways with no expansion, beware of a potential archon bust after deflecting the dark templar. An archon bust typically hits around 7:00-7:30. If your opponent lost a couple of DTs without doing any damage, you can try to hold your natural by walling it off with extra gateways. However, walling off is map dependent; good walling maps for this would be Bel'Shir Vestige or Frost. If you choose to abandon your natural, you can hold this attack more easily with a three-pylon wall at your ramp, or a good simcity in your main. During this time, you should be constantly warping in stalkers/zealots from your gateways as well.
Phoenix All-ins Phoenix all-ins typically don't hit until after 7:30, which is when there are three to four phoenixes out. Phoenix all-ins are deadly if handled improperly by a fast expanding player, so you need to make sure you identify phoenixes and three to four gateways as soon as possible. After you've identified phoenix plus gateway pressure and no nexus from your opponent, cancel or sacrifice your own nexus and build an additional gateway for a total of four. In this scenario, place your units at the top of your ramp and continually warp in gateway units. Use a proxy pylon or warp prism to warp in zealots for harassment, do this until you have enough units to break out of the contain. In some cases, proxying a twilight council and a dark shrine with your hidden probe can allow you a very powerful stalker/archon/chargelot counterattack, as well as a more reliable way to break down your ramp.
Void Ray All-ins Void Ray all-ins can be difficult to beat if you don't get a good scout in, but between your hallucination scouts and observers, you should be able to scout void rays, extra gateways, and no nexus, in time to get the proper defenses. Most void ray all-ins hit around 8:00 with four void rays. When you scout a void ray all-in, you should add an extra gateway (for a total of four) and warp in as many stalkers as possible. In some cases, void ray all-ins can be zealot-heavy, in which case it's important to wall off your natural depending on the map. If you feel you can't hold your natural, feel free to sacrifice your nexus, and then retreat to the high ground while starting a twilight council for blink.
Other 1-Base All-ins All other 1-base all-ins will generally hit after 7:30 and will feature tech units of choice including immortals, colossus, warp prisms, and archons. To scout for these attacks, send a followup hallucination scout or probe scout to check for the nexus. If there is no nexus down by 7:00-7:30, you should prepare for a 1-base all-in by adding one or two gateways -- to a maximum of four -- and warping in as many gateway units as possible.
Using this build, your hallucination scout will arrive at your opponent's base a little bit before your robo finishes, allowing you the choice of making an immortal or an observer first based on what you see. Generally, you want to make an immortal first anytime you scout heavy gateway pressure (i.e. 3-gate pressure, blink stalkers, 3-gate stargate pressure, etc.) and an observer first if you scout any type of expansion or DT play.
Variations
Early Forge Variation
If you scout your opponent going for an early expand with your hallucinated phoenix, you can opt to build a forge instead of a third gateway at 42 supply. Halt robo production and spend all chronoboost on probes; this will allow you to power hard into the mid game. Generally, players will follow up with very early natural gases (~7:30-8:00) followed by either twilight tech or colossus tech. Add extra gateways as soon as 2-base saturation is reached. Overall, this is an economic play that can set you up for a very powerful 2-base timing.
A mid game attack...power overwhelming style
Puzzle vs. ClassicSet 1. From Peoleague 2013, Semifinals, KT Rolster vs. STX Soul (Classic wins) Mana vs. TitaNSet 2. From WCS Europe, Ro16 (Mana wins) Oz vs. HerOSet 3. From WCS America, Ro32 (HerO wins)
3-Gate Pressure Variation If your opponent goes for an earlier nexus (1-gate FE or nexus first), this build has a built in attack to punish it because of its emphasis on gateway units. When you use a hallucination scout at 6:00, you can get a good idea if your opponent expanded earlier than you and you can set up an attack:
...
40 stalker
42 stalker
42 gateway
(make 2 observers)
(As warpgates become available):
stalker
zealot
zealot
zealot x3 @proxy
*Chronoboost gateways*
zealot x3 @proxy
MsC stays at home with observer*
Move out at 7:30-8:00 with your gateway units, leaving your MSC and an observer at home. The attack should hit around 8:30-9:00 with 5 stalkers, 3 sentries, and 8 zealots. You should be producing probes constantly, using your MSC to defend from any kinds of zealot and or DT counterattacks. The primary purpose of this push is to allow you to saturate your natural more quickly than your opponent, but it is possible to kill their natural. Unless you are doing critical damage, consider pulling back after one to two additional warpins; then add a forge and twilight, or robo bay, as a transition while taking your natural gases. At this point you can transition into immortal/archon/chargelot or colossus.
Killing your opponent's nexus feels nice, doesn't it?
Some notes:
You can attack through the nexus cannon with the high number of gateway units you have
An optional tactic for this push is to hallucinate a warp prism or oracle to pull back some of your opponent's units from the natural
If your opponent moves his units onto the high ground, you can forcefield the ramp and get a 100% guaranteed nexus kill
Rain vs. DearSet 1. From Proleague 2013 Quarterfinals, SK Telecom vs. STX Soul (Dear wins) Rain vs. WelmuSet 3. From WCS Season 2 Finals, Group A (Rain wins)
Transitions
Immortal/Archon/Chargelot Immortal/archon/chargelot is generally the most common transition out of this build because you already have most of the infrastructure and several gateway units. It's also a very middle-of-the-road composition which does well against almost every other composition in the game: which furthers the theme of this build. Most often players will get immortals, charge, +1 attack, a templar archives, and 6-8 gateways off of 2 bases. From here, attempt to pressure the opponent while taking a faster third and transitioning into the late game by adding on tempests if needed against colossus.
Colossus Colossus transitions are becoming increasingly less popular as more players are using immortal/archon/chargelot. However, colossus mid games are still quite strong and contain a very powerful 2-base timing with four to six colossus; alternatively, you can take a later yet safer third base. Colossus transitions have a glaring weakness to stargate-based play, and should not be used against a player who opened stargate into phoenix or void rays.
Most colossus players will slowly transition back into immortal/archon/chargelot as they lose colossi in big battles. The end goal is to also add tempests to deal with enemy tempests/colossi.
Void Ray This is the least popular build transition as this particular composition is especially hard to smoothly transition into unless you opened stargate; however, It is still possible against other robo-based expands. This strategy is purely defensive and attempts to get a strong deathball together early. Add one or two stargates after deflecting any pressure and start void ray production while getting ground and air upgrades. After a critical mass of void rays (6-8) is reached, you can take a third safely and gradually transition into immortal/void ray/chargelot.
FAQs
What do I do if I scout a proxy 2-gate? Will the sentry be out in time? If you scout a proxy 2-gate, obviously drop your sentry-first opening and defend appropriately.
How does this build fare against zealot and stalker pokes? This build gets a sentry and 2 stalkers out at 5:30, the normal timing for a standard poke, so you should be able to deflect it without any trouble.
After early gateway pressure, I get contained on 1-base and can't get out...what do I do? The most common response is to make a warp prism from your robo and drop a few zealots while pushing down your ramp. If you managed to get a pylon out on the map, you can also do a zealot warpin to harass as well.
Is it possible to substitute a stargate for the robo? What about going blink or DTs? These timings are a little less solid and stargate play takes greater multi-tasking ability. You should not go blink or DTs to follow up this expand, primarily because you won't have detection and you don't get a solid scout until 6:00. If you try to skip detection with this build, you will 100% lose to early DTs.
I keep dying to certain all-ins like 10-gate into 3-gate, void ray all-ins, proxy 2-gate/core cheeses, etc. Am I doing something wrong? Honestly, these are all very difficult builds to stop even in the most ideal situations. Unless you're already opening with a 3-stalker rush, these cheeses are very difficult to hold. Fortunately, this build is the closest thing to a 3-stalker rush so it shouldn't be a build order loss: you just need to micro very well in order to win.
How is this build better than a one-gate expand? This build gets a lot of gateway units out early to deal with any potential threats while a one-gate expand focus on getting a very early nexus for an early photon overcharge to deflect early pressure. The two-gate expand's more mobile defense provides a lot of flexibility to adapt to your opponent's build and react accordingly, allowing you to play more safely and stably into the mid game compared to a one-gate expand. This build, for instance, can blindly hold proxy stargates and blink stalker all-ins and doesn't have to blindly build an immortal after expanding. The keyword here is safety.
Of course, the heavy gateway count and later nexus of a two-gate expand result in a less economic opening with a later nexus and later tech. However, the focus on heavy gateway units and good flow on information allows you to compete with the more economic 1-gate expands by using 3-gate attacks and faster forges to pull ahead. While one-gate expands can deflect 3-gate pressure with a finished nexus and nexus cannon, the two-gate expand has weaknesses to 3-gate pressure builds before the nexus has finished (~7:30). In these situations, it's usually mandatory to cancel the nexus, defend on one base, and play from behind. However, the emphasis on early gateway units allows you to harass and push down your ramp fairly early to break even again. During this time, you can generally get a strong read on your opponent through hallucination and observers.
The point of this build is to develop of a stable defense while taking an early non-committal expansion. Simply put, in situations where one-gate expands would die, this build would only be playing from behind. The two-gate expand is a great ladder build because of it's ability to defend almost anything with only minor adjustments.
Is this build map dependent? This build has the potential to do well on any map, but works best on maps with small chokes at the natural and manageable cliffs such as Frost or Bel'Shir Vestige. This is primarily due to the build's reliance on forcefields and walloffs to deal with certain all-ins. This build does not do well on maps with large surface areas to blink into the main such as Yeonsu or Polar Night.
I'm learning builds for a BoX series...would you say this is a good build to add? Not particularly. While this build is safe and stable, it isn't greedy or aggressive enough to put you far ahead of your opponent compared to other builds like 4-gate blink or one-gate expands. However, it works well in Bo1 matches and ladder because of its safety. If you wanted to open up with a very stable macro build in a BoX series, though, this could potentially work well as an opening build but not much better than a DT expand or a more standard robo expand
Great guide. I already do a 2-gate expand which opens 3 Stalker, so I'll have to try the Sentry-heavy version. That 3-gate attack seems interesting, usually when I see a 1-gate FE I just cancel the Nexus and throw down 2 desperation gates and it tends to work at my level. I'd much rather have a half-decent response
On September 19 2013 09:12 Yonnua wrote: Thank goodness, TL Strategy! You always have great timing; first saving my PvT with Tails' DT build, now saving my PvP!
Great job guys; looking forward to reading this and learning the build to within an inch of its life. :D
I've read through now and it's gorgeous - it covers every possible eventuality flawlessly and explains the response. Using this build should make it easy to get in to the mid-game with a considerable advantage.
This build is actually terrible against blink all-in...not sure why you state otherwise. If you check your provided VOD carefully, Oz does a different build and is thus able to hold the attack off. Sentry stalker stalker sentry sentry nexus is a near-autoloss against that particular all-in.
edit: I should point out that the build Oz used in that VOD (which Hero also uses) has a huge downside: no fast halluc scout. Unfortunately there are no HOTS PvP builds that are safe against everything.
On September 19 2013 09:46 city42 wrote: This build is actually terrible against blink all-in...not sure why you state otherwise. If you check your provided VOD carefully, Oz does a different build and is thus able to hold the attack off. Sentry stalker stalker sentry sentry nexus is a near-autoloss against that particular all-in.
edit: I should point out that the build Oz used in that VOD (which Hero also uses) has a huge downside: no fast halluc scout. Unfortunately there are no HOTS PvP builds that are safe against everything.
The build that Oz used gets exactly all of the same things that this build gets by the same time. At 7:30, you have a completed nexus, 4-6 stalkers/3 sentries, and an immortal on the way against ~8 blink stalkers or ~12 stalkers without blink at the worst. Along with nexus cannon, you can defend long enough to get 2 immortals and 1-2 more waves of warpins from 3 gates. And once you have a sizeable enough chunk of zealot/stalker/immortal that you can split your forces, there's nothing blink stalkers can do.
The particular build that HerO used in that VoD does get a very late blink (and 2 sentries?), but having it earlier wouldn't have made any difference as Oz already had the necessary ingredients to defend a blink stalker attack at 7:10.
Also, I don't consider not having a fast hallucination scout to be a "huge downside". An early hallucination scout is nice because you get a 100% free scout of your opponent, but it comes with the drawback of having to be very passive. I suggest watching this video to get a better understanding of how scouting works in PvP: PvP: Scouting in the Early/Mid Game
On September 19 2013 10:11 SC2John wrote: Also, I don't consider a fast hallucination scout to be a "huge downside". An early hallucination scout is nice because you get a 100% free scout of your opponent, but it comes with the drawback of having to be very passive. I suggest watching this video to get a better understanding of how scouting works in PvP: PvP: Scouting in the Early/Mid Game
Actually, he said not having a fast hallu scout was the huge downside.
On September 19 2013 10:11 SC2John wrote: Also, I don't consider a fast hallucination scout to be a "huge downside". An early hallucination scout is nice because you get a 100% free scout of your opponent, but it comes with the drawback of having to be very passive. I suggest watching this video to get a better understanding of how scouting works in PvP: PvP: Scouting in the Early/Mid Game
Actually, he said not having a fast hallu scout was the huge downside.
I badly worded that. I correct myself: NOT having a fast hallucination scout is NOT a "huge downside".
On September 19 2013 09:46 city42 wrote: This build is actually terrible against blink all-in...not sure why you state otherwise. If you check your provided VOD carefully, Oz does a different build and is thus able to hold the attack off. Sentry stalker stalker sentry sentry nexus is a near-autoloss against that particular all-in.
edit: I should point out that the build Oz used in that VOD (which Hero also uses) has a huge downside: no fast halluc scout. Unfortunately there are no HOTS PvP builds that are safe against everything.
The build that Oz used gets exactly all of the same things that this build gets by the same time. At 7:30, you have a completed nexus, 5-7 stalkers/3 sentries, and an immortal on the way against ~8 blink stalkers at the worst. Along with nexus cannon, you can defend long enough to get 2 immortals and 1-2 more waves of warpins from 3 gates. And once you have a sizeable enough chunk of zealot/stalker/immortal that you can split your forces, there's nothing blink stalkers can do.
The particular build that HerO used in that VoD does get a very late blink (and 2 sentries?), but having it earlier wouldn't have made any difference as Oz already had the necessary ingredients to defend a blink stalker attack at 7:10.
Also, I don't consider a fast hallucination scout to be a "huge downside". An early hallucination scout is nice because you get a 100% free scout of your opponent, but it comes with the drawback of having to be very passive. I suggest watching this video to get a better understanding of how scouting works in PvP: PvP: Scouting in the Early/Mid Game
It's really not enough against a proper blink build, with 11 stalkers blinking on top of your immortal at 7:50. I've been using this build since Oz showed it off at IEM, and blink is extremely good against it, especially on maps where blinking straight into the main is possible. This is at NA GM level which isn't the best, but I do know how to execute a build order.
One more thing:
10-Gate Into 3-Gate Pressure The sign of this build is an early stalker and zealot poke before 5:30.
This doesn't seem to be accurate. Considering that build warps 3 stalkers into your main or natural at 5:20, it's a whole lot more than a "poke" at your ramp at 5:30! The poke will be before 5:00 and will include a probe.
10-Gate Into 3-Gate Pressure The sign of this build is an early stalker and zealot poke before 5:30.
This doesn't seem to be accurate. Considering that build warps 3 stalkers into your main or natural at 5:20, it's a whole lot more than a "poke" at your ramp at 5:30! The poke will be before 5:00 and will include a probe.
Originally the text said "significantly" but was edited out . The point here is that the earliest a normal 13-gate zealot/stalker poke will get to you is 5:30; if there are any zealot/stalker pokes before that time, you automatically know he went for a 10-gate (or a 12-gate, but that's less common).
I did a Videoguide on a very similar 1(!) gate FE build. Basically, the Idea is the same - a way of gaining information through mapcontrol and intelligent spacing.
Awesome stuff. Is this the current Meta though? I usually see 3 gate expand or one gate expand.. Oh well, can't wait to try it out soon! Thanks for the guide OP!
I like this build, and this guide is good, but I personally do not find this build safe. In fact, it loses to almost everything PRECISE. A PRECISE VR all-in, phoenix all-in, 3-5-7 Stalker pressure, MSC blink, crazy fast DTS. Damn. This build loses to everything TIGHT.
I like it as a ladder build because if you do everything right, and your opponent's build is just a little sloppy, you defend everything. Sadly, if your opponent and you play perfectly, you lose to almost everything. It's also really sad when your opponent one gate expands!
It used to be every toss in PL played this build. Like I said, this guide was well-written. Despite my quibbling, I really had blast reading it.
Well written guide but I do disagree that this build is safe vs anything. Pvp nothing is safe vs anything. A 10 gate 3 gate will win vs this if executed right. A probe and a zealot can come up your ramp at 4:45-4:55 and by that time you will have 1 sentry and mothershipcore in its scouting path and 2 stalkers on the way. You can either let the probe come and proxy in your base or ff the probe out but then u will have to beat 5 stalkers 1 zealot with 2 stalkers and 1 sentry and a mothershipcore.
On September 19 2013 06:21 TL Strategy wrote: Other 1-Base All-ins All other 1-base all-ins will generally hit after 7:30 and will feature tech units of choice including immortals, colossus, warp prisms, and archons. To scout for these attacks, send a followup hallucination scout or probe scout to check for the nexus. If there is no nexus down by 7:00-7:30, you should prepare for a 1-base all-in by adding one or two gateways -- to a maximum of four -- and warping in as many gateway units as possible.
Question! How about the Korean Style Four Warpgate All-In? The current trend of heavy teching and later scouting has enticed me to resurrect this archaic build, and while I am a mediocre player playing against other mediocre players, I have been met with surprising success. I'm interested in knowing what more skilled players think about this.
On September 19 2013 06:21 TL Strategy wrote: Other 1-Base All-ins All other 1-base all-ins will generally hit after 7:30 and will feature tech units of choice including immortals, colossus, warp prisms, and archons. To scout for these attacks, send a followup hallucination scout or probe scout to check for the nexus. If there is no nexus down by 7:00-7:30, you should prepare for a 1-base all-in by adding one or two gateways -- to a maximum of four -- and warping in as many gateway units as possible.
Question! How about the Korean Style Four Warpgate All-In? The current trend of heavy teching and later scouting has enticed me to resurrect this archaic build, and while I am a mediocre player playing against other mediocre players, I have been met with surprising success. I'm interested in knowing what more skilled players think about this.
That build relies very heavily on a poor reaction from your opponent. Sure, it'll work sometimes, but almost everything works sometimes, evena build like K4G that relies on getting pylons down in your opponents main. This expand build can hold it off (as can practically any build), although as with any cheese defence, you have to react correctly or you'll probably lose.
I like the guide and it gives a great additional way to play on ladder, but I definitely prefer a stargate expand - it's safer and although you will be behind faster expand builds from an economic perspective, phoenixes give you an ideal way to catch up - or all-in if you aren't willing to catch up with better multitasking than your opponent.
If it's scouted this should be holdable and that build is extremely easy to scout, at least that's what my gut feel is. Early sentry to stall the attack and a better economy + ramp should be enough to hold this off.
On September 19 2013 15:30 InfusedTT.DaZe wrote: it's a bit out of fashion but, this build is actually free lose vs a 1 gate -> council -> blink and 3 more gates all-in
after 3 years of pvp... no... there is no safe pvp build that has no cons, any pro protoss player will agree
In my experience blink all ins are the ones held more easily with an FE build. Stargate all ins are far more tricky.
edit:
also I woke up this morning checked TL and was like: again no blog post from SC2John... is this guy on holidays...., then I clicked this article :D
If it's scouted this should be holdable and that build is extremely easy to scout, at least that's what my gut feel is. Early sentry to stall the attack and a better economy + ramp should be enough to hold this off.
The guide is not saying to probe scout. My guess is that it will throw off certain timings. Havent done the build yet but if you probe scout, I would guess you dont have enough to chrono 2 stalkers right away. As I mention before this build will lose to 10 gate 3 gate. Also Traps all in is not even the hardest hitting 10 gate 3 gate. His hits at 5:27-5:30. A better variation hits at 5:20-5:23 which you wont have enough to defend by then.
Obviously there is no such thing as an all-around pvp build that's good against everything; it's more about how behind are you vs what "counters" you and how ahead are you vs what you're countering.
This build minimizes both. You aren't that far behind vs say blink all-ins compared to a crazy coinflip like, 1gate fe->stargate, but you aren't as ahead either against DT expo compared to a greedier 1gate FE->robo for instance. Of course these are somewhat extreme examples, but that's the general idea behind this.
On September 19 2013 19:57 Teoita wrote: You guys seem to be misunderstanding things.
Obviously there is no such thing as an all-around pvp build that's good against everything; it's more about how behind are you vs what "counters" you and how ahead are you vs what you're countering.
This build minimizes both. You aren't that far behind vs say blink all-ins compared to a crazy coinflip like, 1gate fe->stargate, but you aren't as ahead either against DT expo compared to a greedier 1gate FE->robo for instance. Of course these are somewhat extreme examples, but that's the general idea behind this.
TL Protoss builds should have memorable names like the Magic Johnson (2-2-2) or the Man Train (Zealot/Immortal all in). I humbly suggest that this awesome new guide should be referred to as "The Goldilocks Opening."
On September 19 2013 10:56 CrazyHunter wrote: Awesome stuff. Is this the current Meta though? I usually see 3 gate expand or one gate expand.. Oh well, can't wait to try it out soon! Thanks for the guide OP!
It started making an appearance during S2 of WCS and also in Proleague. Players who seem to use it most often have been Welmu and Rain (and Mana to some extent).
On September 19 2013 11:10 -_- wrote: I like this build, and this guide is good, but I personally do not find this build safe. In fact, it loses to almost everything PRECISE. A PRECISE VR all-in, phoenix all-in, 3-5-7 Stalker pressure, MSC blink, crazy fast DTS. Damn. This build loses to everything TIGHT.
I like it as a ladder build because if you do everything right, and your opponent's build is just a little sloppy, you defend everything. Sadly, if your opponent and you play perfectly, you lose to almost everything. It's also really sad when your opponent one gate expands!
It used to be every toss in PL played this build. Like I said, this guide was well-written. Despite my quibbling, I really had blast reading it.
I don't know why you say that this loses to everything. As is common with a fast expand build, it has some weaknesses to stargate play and really early blink aggression, but this build makes up for that with a large number of early gateway units and a fairly early robo; in the worst case scenarios, you can just give up your natural and play from behind whereas 1-gate expands would just straight up die to some of these things. 3-7 stalker pressure is actually very easy to deflect with this build. Fast DTs are also super easy to beat. Most DT expands have DTs warped in at 6:50, but if the twilight goes down before stalker or MsC, the first DTs can get warped in at 6:20 at the earliest. At that point, you STILL get a hallucination scout and you'll have 2-3 forcefields available to buy you time; in a worst case scenario, you may have to pull your probes and run around a bit, but you should lose almost nothing to DTs with this build.
On September 19 2013 12:15 Rickyvalle21 wrote: Well written guide but I do disagree that this build is safe vs anything. Pvp nothing is safe vs anything. A 10 gate 3 gate will win vs this if executed right. A probe and a zealot can come up your ramp at 4:45-4:55 and by that time you will have 1 sentry and mothershipcore in its scouting path and 2 stalkers on the way. You can either let the probe come and proxy in your base or ff the probe out but then u will have to beat 5 stalkers 1 zealot with 2 stalkers and 1 sentry and a mothershipcore.
You're absolutely right, this was overlooked in the making of the guide. That section is taken out. 10-gate, however, is rare and difficult to hold even if you know it's coming. With this build, the best thing I can tell you is to use your 1 forcefield to buy time, chronoboost only stalkers, and pull half your probes to hold on the initial push. If you can get a surround on the ramp, it's possible to hold this.
On September 19 2013 12:23 jcroisdale wrote: why is there no talk about macro phoenix play? I feel very far behind if my opponent open no sentries straight into 1 gate sg phoenix.
Obviously stargate openings are good versus both robo AND early expand builds. However, if they are opting to play macro and expand, you're not really in a bad spot, especially if you spotted it and managed to get your forge down early. Most of the time players will transition into Immortal/Archon/Chargelot with this build, using stalkers and photon overcharge to push away the phoenixes, but you can also try some variations such as going blink before charge, cancelling the robo and reactively putting down double stargate, etc., etc. Get creative .
On September 19 2013 06:21 TL Strategy wrote: Other 1-Base All-ins All other 1-base all-ins will generally hit after 7:30 and will feature tech units of choice including immortals, colossus, warp prisms, and archons. To scout for these attacks, send a followup hallucination scout or probe scout to check for the nexus. If there is no nexus down by 7:00-7:30, you should prepare for a 1-base all-in by adding one or two gateways -- to a maximum of four -- and warping in as many gateway units as possible.
Question! How about the Korean Style Four Warpgate All-In? The current trend of heavy teching and later scouting has enticed me to resurrect this archaic build, and while I am a mediocre player playing against other mediocre players, I have been met with surprising success. I'm interested in knowing what more skilled players think about this.
Korean 4-gate was taken out because it's such an old and out-of-style build. Most modern warp gate rushes are either 10-gate into 3-gate, 3-gate pressure, or delayed 4-gate with 2 gases. To defend with this build, you just forcefield your ramp @5:45-6:00 (you should have 2-4 FFs ready depending on whether or not you already sent hallucination scout)...if you can't continually forcefield your opponent out, you can hide behind photon overcharge until you can get an immortal and several gateway units off of your 3-gates. Worst case scenario, you have to pull probes, but 4-gate should be easy to deal with using this build.
On September 19 2013 15:30 InfusedTT.DaZe wrote: it's a bit out of fashion but, this build is actually free lose vs a 1 gate -> council -> blink and 3 more gates all-in
after 3 years of pvp... no... there is no safe pvp build that has no cons, any pro protoss player will agree
I disagree. Robo expands are the best case scenario against blink stalkers, the only issue being that the stalkers can blink past your natural directly into your main. If you're really worried about stalker all-ins, you can just get the robo before expanding for a faster 2nd immortal. In my opinion, the most important thing to defending blink is to get up 3-4 zealots as fast as possible to prevent the blink on top of your immortal.
On September 19 2013 19:57 Teoita wrote: You guys seem to be misunderstanding things.
Obviously there is no such thing as an all-around pvp build that's good against everything; it's more about how behind are you vs what "counters" you and how ahead are you vs what you're countering.
This build minimizes both. You aren't that far behind vs say blink all-ins compared to a crazy coinflip like, 1gate fe->stargate, but you aren't as ahead either against DT expo compared to a greedier 1gate FE->robo for instance. Of course these are somewhat extreme examples, but that's the general idea behind this.
TL Protoss builds should have memorable names like the Magic Johnson (2-2-2) or the Man Train (Zealot/Immortal all in). I humbly suggest that this awesome new guide should be referred to as "The Goldilocks Opening."
On September 19 2013 19:57 Teoita wrote: You guys seem to be misunderstanding things.
Obviously there is no such thing as an all-around pvp build that's good against everything; it's more about how behind are you vs what "counters" you and how ahead are you vs what you're countering.
This build minimizes both. You aren't that far behind vs say blink all-ins compared to a crazy coinflip like, 1gate fe->stargate, but you aren't as ahead either against DT expo compared to a greedier 1gate FE->robo for instance. Of course these are somewhat extreme examples, but that's the general idea behind this.
Yes, people overemphasize on reading "safe build". Gotta +1 this post.
Nice guide! A few games you might want to add to your guide: - Sos vs Parting on Akilon in PL R6 [WJS vs SKT] (both players open 2gate FE) - Dear vs Trust on Akilon in PL R6 [STX vs CJ] (vs 1gate FE)
Slight variation of the build (1 stalker into 2 sentries before Nexus): - Wooki vs Trap on Newkirk Precint in PL R6 [STX vs KT] (Wooki actually lost vs fast DT + 4gate)
On September 19 2013 23:15 hipo wrote: Nice guide! A few games you might want to add to your guide: - Sos vs Parting on Akilon in PL R6 [WJS vs SKT] (both players open 2gate FE) - Dear vs Trust on Akilon in PL R6 [STX vs CJ] (vs 1gate FE)
Slight variation of the build (1 stalker into 2 sentries before Nexus): - Wooki vs Trap on Newkirk Precint in PL R6 [STX vs KT] (Wooki actually lost vs fast DT + 4gate)
Thank you so much for these excellent games! I'll see if I can get them edited into the OP! MC also does odd variations of this build all the time, doing things like going stalker -> stalker/sentry -> sentry + nexus -> 2 stalkers and weird shit lol. I also consider all builds that get a robo before nexus to be a part of this same vein, just slightly safer.
I've seen this build a few times (or slight variants) on the ladder. I've never actually tried it.
One of the biggest issues I feel it has is that it is fairly easy to identify (msc and sentry first, 2nd gate). Once I identify it with a probe scout, I just 1 gate FE and go for super greedy play. I know I can get away with it because the two gates don't provide a lot of offensive potential since it is designed around holding early pressure. From there I can do several timings (colossus or immortal/archon/chargelot), because I'll be ahead on tech and econ from early on.
Not scouting early means this can basically always be punished with greedy expo play, since you don't really know exactly what I'm doing (only that I don't have proxies). I feel like this needs an aggressive variant to punish 1 gate FEs (and an earlier scout).
Maybe my opponents just aren't doing it right, but I don't see this lasting that long once people realize they can just out-greed it.
Not everyone probe scouts while having the opportunity to adjust their build in time though. In fact,it's common to either don't scout or scout so late all they are looking for is the spawning postion of the opponent, rather than some clue to change their build hoping to counter something that may or may not be happening. This is especially true at higher levels of play.
The sentry+msc opening, while not very common, could easily go into tech. You invest 250 gas in early game safety as opposed to tech; this puts say a stargate as fast, say, as a 3stalker rush/msc > stargate build. It's not particularly fast but it's a possibility.
There are plenty of sentry first openings that are 1 gate tech builds as well, so if he just scouts the sentry and mamacore (depending on his scout timing) its not rly a big tell
On September 20 2013 00:34 HardlyNever wrote: I've seen this build a few times (or slight variants) on the ladder. I've never actually tried it.
One of the biggest issues I feel it has is that it is fairly easy to identify (msc and sentry first, 2nd gate). Once I identify it with a probe scout, I just 1 gate FE and go for super greedy play. I know I can get away with it because the two gates don't provide a lot of offensive potential since it is designed around holding early pressure. From there I can do several timings (colossus or immortal/archon/chargelot), because I'll be ahead on tech and econ from early on.
Not scouting early means this can basically always be punished with greedy expo play, since you don't really know exactly what I'm doing (only that I don't have proxies). I feel like this needs an aggressive variant to punish 1 gate FEs (and an earlier scout).
Maybe my opponents just aren't doing it right, but I don't see this lasting that long once people realize they can just out-greed it.
adding a sg after the expand to react to a greedier build works well for me. usually you equalize or pull ahead economically. you can't really out-greed and have the same amount of gas
edit: oh, and the "3-Gate Pressure Variation" is a really good option, you are underestimating how this build's safety gives enough army to punish an out-greed attempt imho...there are lots of other transitions that i think are good too to punish out-greed response, but i wont post until i know they are viable at higher levels of play than mine
this is like the only PvP opening i ever used since WoL (only difference was i used sase's wol opening, into 2 gate expand; and also that sometimes if i scout an allin i delay the nexus)
I vastly prefer 1 gate expo. This build expo's so late and delays the robo so much that it's worse against those delayed pushes like blink stalkers or just some slower version of 3 gate expand. Admittedly 1 gate FE needs very good senses and adapting against something like 10 gate where this is better but overall it's the better build imo. I just don't see a real use in making 3 sentries in PvP, they are lousy combat units that get's compensate by FF but the hardest builds to stop (blink, stargate or just very fast 3 gate) all hit such that forcefields are relatively weak. FF isn't useless agianst blink but i rather just have stalker-immortal to defend it which a 1 gate FE get's up much quicker than using multiple sentries.
On September 20 2013 12:17 Markwerf wrote: I vastly prefer 1 gate expo. This build expo's so late and delays the robo so much that it's worse against those delayed pushes like blink stalkers or just some slower version of 3 gate expand. Admittedly 1 gate FE needs very good senses and adapting against something like 10 gate where this is better but overall it's the better build imo. I just don't see a real use in making 3 sentries in PvP, they are lousy combat units that get's compensate by FF but the hardest builds to stop (blink, stargate or just very fast 3 gate) all hit such that forcefields are relatively weak. FF isn't useless agianst blink but i rather just have stalker-immortal to defend it which a 1 gate FE get's up much quicker than using multiple sentries.
It's possible to do variations on this build including skipping the second set of sentries and building a faster nexus/robo or going stalker first into double sentry into double stalker (and probe scout). You're not set in stone having to go with 3 sentries if you dislike sentries.
PvP build orders aren't as rigid and unforgiving as people seem to think they are, pro players just generally take inordinate amounts of risks in this matchup. "Safety" is still a relative term in the metagame as protoss players are still trying to figure out how to take a fast expand without outright dying or falling behind against opponents that are trying increasingly risky and all-innish strategies. So take it with a grain of salt that when a PvP build is called "safe", it just means that the relative risk you're taking is small.
On September 20 2013 19:11 SalvationII wrote: There is no safe fast expanding, you always take a big risk against a good 3g pressure.
A tight expand build should be able to hold 3gate pressure actually. Imo things like 3gate/oracle are much scarier.
if the 3gate comes of 10 gate it's really hard to hold, I think you can with 1 gate FE if your reaction is super quick and you cancel nexus, ff the ramp to buy some time till nexus cannon is ready but it's quite hard. 3 gate oracle is fairly easy to stop for FE actually unless the stargate is proxies but you should find that easily, it's another build against which less sentries is better because you can split up much easier.
Is it possible to do this with making a Stargate instead of a robo? I really hate robo play, stargate play is so much more interesting to me. Are Voids just not good enough early on?
On September 21 2013 01:28 KrazyTrumpet wrote: Is it possible to do this with making a Stargate instead of a robo? I really hate robo play, stargate play is so much more interesting to me. Are Voids just not good enough early on?
1Gate tech->3gate or 3gate -> stargate; robo if necessary, expo when safe.
Im not very expert on stargate buidls so i can't be very specific, but that'd be the general idea. The big difference from WoL is that you can hold blink allins with voids (see parting vs swagger on polar night) instead of immortals.
Yeah, blink all ins would be my biggest concern. I lose to early pressure a lot, though, and I think it's because my build isn't all that great. Anyway, I'm getting a bit off topic for this thread. I'll try to find some VODs/replays of a good stargate build I guess.
On September 21 2013 04:23 DeBiA wrote: what must I do if I scout a stargate with void-ray production but it isn't an all-in? So the enemy expand itself and then mass void..
From the Protoss Help Me thread:
Q:How do i deal with a player going heavy stargate in the midgame? rsvp wrote: I usually go for a 2 base timing off of 8-10 gates when blink and +1 finishes. No storm or charge yet, but I'll have 2-3 archons. If that doesn't work or he turtles too hard, then I'll try to stall his 3rd while getting my own 3rd up, and tech to storm. Just have your blink stalkers out on the map, threatening backstabs if he tries to move out. There's not much harass that you can do during the mid game while he's turtling on 2 bases/establishing his 3rd, but once it gets to late game you'll want proxy pylons and warp prisms to flood zealots into one or more of his bases as soon as he moves out.
As far as engagements go there's not much to say, I usually lead with blink stalkers to bait/get a few free shots off or maybe snipe a void ray, then go in with the rest of my army. You want to try to target fire voids with stalkers but it can be hard sometimes especially as the armies get bigger so sometimes I just a-move and focus on trying to blink back and save stalkers instead.
Storm actually does pretty well against VR, especially towards late game once armies get bigger. Mid game zealot/stalker/archon does ok as well.
On September 21 2013 04:23 DeBiA wrote: what must I do if I scout a stargate with void-ray production but it isn't an all-in? So the enemy expand itself and then mass void..
As a general rule: if your opponent tries to do a void ray mid game, he has to play defensively and therefore you can expand freely. In PvP, this means that you can take your 3rd base before adding on extra gateways (so you would expand off of 3-4 gates instead of 6-8). Mid game blink transitions are good at keeping void ray armies pinned back too, but you don't HAVE to go blink. Obviously, storm is necessary later in the game.
On September 21 2013 11:38 TLGoku wrote: With all these different pressure openings being touched upon, I'm surprised the scariest one's being left out.
If your opponent goes one-gate Nexus, how does that not leave you in an atrocious position?
actually if you read the thread at all its brought up a ridiculously large amount of times because lots of people seem to think its a counter.
ill wait to hear people's reasoning but right now i just dont buy it. either you can punish then really hard, or if they cut probe production while nex is building, you wont be far behind in econ at all with a higher gas income in return...you can make enough extra probes before he continues probes to come out even, it depends solely on the reads you make on each other, not the BO imo. and, if he went 1g nex, u can make that read easily, while he may think you are going to be aggressive and cut probes longer
On September 21 2013 11:38 TLGoku wrote: With all these different pressure openings being touched upon, I'm surprised the scariest one's being left out.
If your opponent goes one-gate Nexus, how does that not leave you in an atrocious position?
actually if you read the thread at all its brought up a ridiculously large amount of times because lots of people seem to think its a counter.
ill wait to hear people's reasoning but right now i just dont buy it. either you can punish then really hard, or if they cut probe production while nex is building, you wont be far behind in econ at all with a higher gas income in return...you can make enough extra probes before he continues probes to come out even, it depends solely on the reads you make on each other, not the BO imo. and, if he went 1g nex, u can make that read easily, while he may think you are going to be aggressive and cut probes longer
Also, the 3 Gate Expand variation in the OP is pretty damn good at gutting 1 gate fast expand builds. If you go for it as soon as you scout his nexus, you should be able to get pretty far ahead at a minimum.
On September 21 2013 11:38 TLGoku wrote: With all these different pressure openings being touched upon, I'm surprised the scariest one's being left out.
If your opponent goes one-gate Nexus, how does that not leave you in an atrocious position?
actually if you read the thread at all its brought up a ridiculously large amount of times because lots of people seem to think its a counter.
ill wait to hear people's reasoning but right now i just dont buy it. either you can punish then really hard, or if they cut probe production while nex is building, you wont be far behind in econ at all with a higher gas income in return...you can make enough extra probes before he continues probes to come out even, it depends solely on the reads you make on each other, not the BO imo. and, if he went 1g nex, u can make that read easily, while he may think you are going to be aggressive and cut probes longer
Also, the 3 Gate Expand variation in the OP is pretty damn good at gutting 1 gate fast expand builds. If you go for it as soon as you scout his nexus, you should be able to get pretty far ahead at a minimum.
Spare us your master league anecdotes, please. In a game where the players are not awful, how would this 2-Gate Nexus opening be able to reliably come out ahead against a 1-Gate Nexus?
On September 21 2013 11:38 TLGoku wrote: With all these different pressure openings being touched upon, I'm surprised the scariest one's being left out.
If your opponent goes one-gate Nexus, how does that not leave you in an atrocious position?
actually if you read the thread at all its brought up a ridiculously large amount of times because lots of people seem to think its a counter.
ill wait to hear people's reasoning but right now i just dont buy it. either you can punish then really hard, or if they cut probe production while nex is building, you wont be far behind in econ at all with a higher gas income in return...you can make enough extra probes before he continues probes to come out even, it depends solely on the reads you make on each other, not the BO imo. and, if he went 1g nex, u can make that read easily, while he may think you are going to be aggressive and cut probes longer
Also, the 3 Gate Expand variation in the OP is pretty damn good at gutting 1 gate fast expand builds. If you go for it as soon as you scout his nexus, you should be able to get pretty far ahead at a minimum.
Spare us your master league anecdotes, please. In a game where the players are not awful, how would this 2-Gate Nexus opening be able to reliably come out ahead against a 1-Gate Nexus?
And how can a 1 Gate Nexus survive a 4 Gate Phoenix all-in..?
There are no safe builds in PvP, stop posting as if there is a solution.
I wasn't even aware I was posting as if there were a solution. Thank you very much for enlightening me! I will refrain from such nonsense in the future.
On September 21 2013 11:38 TLGoku wrote: With all these different pressure openings being touched upon, I'm surprised the scariest one's being left out.
If your opponent goes one-gate Nexus, how does that not leave you in an atrocious position?
actually if you read the thread at all its brought up a ridiculously large amount of times because lots of people seem to think its a counter.
ill wait to hear people's reasoning but right now i just dont buy it. either you can punish then really hard, or if they cut probe production while nex is building, you wont be far behind in econ at all with a higher gas income in return...you can make enough extra probes before he continues probes to come out even, it depends solely on the reads you make on each other, not the BO imo. and, if he went 1g nex, u can make that read easily, while he may think you are going to be aggressive and cut probes longer
Also, the 3 Gate Expand variation in the OP is pretty damn good at gutting 1 gate fast expand builds. If you go for it as soon as you scout his nexus, you should be able to get pretty far ahead at a minimum.
Spare us your master league anecdotes, please. In a game where the players are not awful, how would this 2-Gate Nexus opening be able to reliably come out ahead against a 1-Gate Nexus?
And how can a 1 Gate Nexus survive a 4 Gate Phoenix all-in..?
There are no safe builds in PvP, stop posting as if there is a solution.
I wasn't even aware I was posting as if there were a solution. Thank you very much for enlightening me! I will refrain from such nonsense in the future.
You, and a lot of other people, are posting in this thread to state that this build is at a disadvantage against x build. However, the fact is that x build will also be countered by some other build, because that's just how PvP works. Posting as if this build is bad because it has a counter is quite silly, and shows a complete lack of understanding as to how PvP works...
Your reading comprehension is as poor as you presume to proclame my understanding of PvP is.
On September 21 2013 11:38 TLGoku wrote: With all these different pressure openings being touched upon, I'm surprised the scariest one's being left out.
If your opponent goes one-gate Nexus, how does that not leave you in an atrocious position?
actually if you read the thread at all its brought up a ridiculously large amount of times because lots of people seem to think its a counter.
ill wait to hear people's reasoning but right now i just dont buy it. either you can punish then really hard, or if they cut probe production while nex is building, you wont be far behind in econ at all with a higher gas income in return...you can make enough extra probes before he continues probes to come out even, it depends solely on the reads you make on each other, not the BO imo. and, if he went 1g nex, u can make that read easily, while he may think you are going to be aggressive and cut probes longer
Also, the 3 Gate Expand variation in the OP is pretty damn good at gutting 1 gate fast expand builds. If you go for it as soon as you scout his nexus, you should be able to get pretty far ahead at a minimum.
Spare us your master league anecdotes, please. In a game where the players are not awful, how would this 2-Gate Nexus opening be able to reliably come out ahead against a 1-Gate Nexus?
And how can a 1 Gate Nexus survive a 4 Gate Phoenix all-in..?
There are no safe builds in PvP, stop posting as if there is a solution.
I wasn't even aware I was posting as if there were a solution. Thank you very much for enlightening me! I will refrain from such nonsense in the future.
You, and a lot of other people, are posting in this thread to state that this build is at a disadvantage against x build. However, the fact is that x build will also be countered by some other build, because that's just how PvP works. Posting as if this build is bad because it has a counter is quite silly, and shows a complete lack of understanding as to how PvP works...
Your reading comprehension is as poor as you presume to proclame my understanding of PvP is.
You can't even spell "proclaim" and you presume to lecture me on my English skills..? Cute kid...
Yet again, you fail to realize what's going on. I'm not lecturing you on your English skills. Srsly, though, this is going nowhere. You have issues.
On September 21 2013 11:38 TLGoku wrote: With all these different pressure openings being touched upon, I'm surprised the scariest one's being left out.
If your opponent goes one-gate Nexus, how does that not leave you in an atrocious position?
actually if you read the thread at all its brought up a ridiculously large amount of times because lots of people seem to think its a counter.
ill wait to hear people's reasoning but right now i just dont buy it. either you can punish then really hard, or if they cut probe production while nex is building, you wont be far behind in econ at all with a higher gas income in return...you can make enough extra probes before he continues probes to come out even, it depends solely on the reads you make on each other, not the BO imo. and, if he went 1g nex, u can make that read easily, while he may think you are going to be aggressive and cut probes longer
Also, the 3 Gate Expand variation in the OP is pretty damn good at gutting 1 gate fast expand builds. If you go for it as soon as you scout his nexus, you should be able to get pretty far ahead at a minimum.
Spare us your master league anecdotes, please. In a game where the players are not awful, how would this 2-Gate Nexus opening be able to reliably come out ahead against a 1-Gate Nexus?
The 3-gate opening is a fairly reliable way to put pressure on your opponent and equalize the economies of both players. I wouldn't say it puts you "pretty far ahead" unless you manage to kill the nexus. Otherwise you're just stabilizing. However, the 3-gate pressure is not the only way to catch back up; you can go early forge, fake a push, and still be in a good position. There are also a number of mid game tactics that can help you equalize (immortal drops, warp prism harassment, blink stalkers).
To address playing against a 1-gate nexus specifically, you ARE playing at a disadvantage. The point of this build is not to be good against everything, it's to minimize risks and take a more middle-of-the-road approach. The key is that instead of auto-losing to certain builds, you end at a disadvantage in the worst case scenario. Originally I named this build "Rain's 2-gate FE"; even though he was not the first person to use it, it fits with his playstyle the best. Again, "safe" is a relative term and doesn't mean that this build is great against anything and everything and cannot lose to anything.
Sidenote @nath: You don't actually scout the nexus until after 6:00 with this build. By the time you walk across the map, the nexus will be finished, so you can't put on SUPER early pressure (unless you just opt to poke in with a probe around 5:30 if you suspect an early nexus). However, the 3-gate pressure after expansion is a feasible option.
In the build order, you say that your nexus starts at 5:45- but in the 3 gate pressure section, you say that 3 stalkers and a MSC reaches your natural at 5:30 and that your nexus should already be under construction.
On September 23 2013 07:39 xtruder wrote: In the build order, you say that your nexus starts at 5:45- but in the 3 gate pressure section, you say that 3 stalkers and a MSC reaches your natural at 5:30 and that your nexus should already be under construction.
Apologies, "around 5:30" is an approximation. In situations where the pressure arrives promptly at 5:30, your nexus won't even start (and you can just build an extra gateway with that money), but most of the time you start it before it starts getting fired on. It all depends on how aggressive your opponent is being and whether or not you scout the pressure.
On September 24 2013 21:13 RandomPlayer wrote: can anyone tell me why ppl stopped using colo and go for archon immo? i mean they could do it long ago but didnt...
Immortal/archon/chargelot secures you a lot more map control and allows you to get an earlier 3rd base against colossus builds. The primary reason we're seeing immortal/archon/chargelot more now is because natural expansions are getting up sooner, meaning you can rely on heavy gateway styles (as opposed to tech-heavy styles) because you have so much more mineral income. Also, the addition of the tempest makes it not suicide to delay your colossus count; in WoL, you HAD to start colossus production early or you were dead.
this build is so perfect; its so similar to the 2g fe build i always used in wol except obviously in hots its safer.
however it says not to scout til 25; but proxy 2 gate will destroy considering you aren't making a zealot and your 2nd gate will likely be started before u know (and its started before you scout)...do i just scout earlier or something? or what should i do?
On September 27 2013 10:07 nath wrote: this build is so perfect; its so similar to the 2g fe build i always used in wol except obviously in hots its safer.
however it says not to scout til 25; but proxy 2 gate will destroy considering you aren't making a zealot and your 2nd gate will likely be started before u know (and its started before you scout)...do i just scout earlier or something? or what should i do?
It says to scout your main and natural after gateway on 13.
On September 28 2013 00:51 Sated wrote: Is what's written in the OP really the best way to deal with someone who goes for a 3 Stalker Rush -> 3 Gate push with Stalkers? If I am cancelling the Nexus, getting an Immortal, and then attempting to expand with a Warp Prism then it feels like I'm massively behind by the time I try to expand. I usually go for a one base Colossus all-in instead, but that's hardly a solution!
If you do some zealot harassment with your proxy pylon, you can even things up some. It also puts some pressure on your opponent's multi-tasking and allows you to break down your ramp more easily. Of course, colossus all-ins are a possible choice too, but they're easily scouted and held off with a ton of gateway units (might be funny to proxy the robo bay though lol). Most pros use the warp prism though.
All in all, it's a bit difficult to find that time to break out of the contain that's not too early and not too late. Just practice using the warp prism and microing it well and eventually you'll start to get a feel for it.
This build is good because its pretty weak against DTs, and thats all I do PvX. If they spot the DTs really quickly they forcefield the ramp. If they don't, its pretty much gg if the DTs kill the robo. If they are quick enough and forcefield the ramp, I kill their natural nexus and expand myself.
I simply wanted to say thank you for this guide. This post has by far had the largest impact on my play than any other. Completely revived my PvP from the ground up.
On October 02 2013 13:45 MeLo wrote: I hope this build becomes meta because i can crush it with a 10gate 4gate.
in what league ? good players will scout with 2 stalkers around if they see proxy pylon and units incoming they cancel nexus and by the time you have first warp in the guy who opens like this has already 3 sentry and 2 stalkers up his ramp and planting down a robo .
On October 02 2013 13:45 MeLo wrote: I hope this build becomes meta because i can crush it with a 10gate 4gate.
in what league ? good players will scout with 2 stalkers around if they see proxy pylon and units incoming they cancel nexus and by the time you have first warp in the guy who opens like this has already 3 sentry and 2 stalkers up his ramp and planting down a robo .
10-gate into 3-gate is actually pretty strong against this build since you don't scout your opponent's main early. The initial zealot/stalker/probe poke gets up the ramp before even the stalkers get out and while you only have one forcefield available (~5:10). You can survive if you chronoboost out only stalkers (don't make the 2nd and 3rd sentries) and pull probes to deal with the initial push, but the defense is not easy. It's possible to adjust this build some and poke into your opponent's base with your probe scout before 4:10, but 10-gate is so rare that it's not really necessary.
A 10-gate into 4-gate is inefficient lol, and will end up hitting later and less effectively.
On October 02 2013 13:45 MeLo wrote: I hope this build becomes meta because i can crush it with a 10gate 4gate.
in what league ? good players will scout with 2 stalkers around if they see proxy pylon and units incoming they cancel nexus and by the time you have first warp in the guy who opens like this has already 3 sentry and 2 stalkers up his ramp and planting down a robo .
10-gate into 3-gate is actually pretty strong against this build since you don't scout your opponent's main early. The initial zealot/stalker/probe poke gets up the ramp before even the stalkers get out and while you only have one forcefield available (~5:10). You can survive if you chronoboost out only stalkers (don't make the 2nd and 3rd sentries) and pull probes to deal with the initial push, but the defense is not easy. It's possible to adjust this build some and poke into your opponent's base with your probe scout before 4:10, but 10-gate is so rare that it's not really necessary.
A 10-gate into 4-gate is inefficient lol, and will end up hitting later and less effectively.
The probe will try to go up your ramp at 4:40 with a 10 gate --> 3 gate, with a pylon in your nat starting just after 4:30. Here is a good illustration of the timing. Like you said, it's extremely rare (I see it maybe once a month) so it's not really an issue, but it is indeed strong against this build.
When doing this build, has anyone had much luck trying to punish 1 gate FE builds with a nexus cancel into a 5 gate all in (with a cancelled robo)? I usually don't probe scout the natural with this build so I don't find out about the fast expand until I scout with my hallucinated phoenix around 6:30ish. I've played around with it (at Diamond) and it seems to be generally effective unless they followed up with a stargate and they manage to get a decent number of probe kills (usually because I'm not paying attention).
On October 16 2013 15:04 onlyRox wrote: nice guide :D
but pls make a terran guide ;;
Pt.2 of the 4M TvZ guide is set to come out soon, and probably a TvP guide following that.
A note about exploiting 1-gate FE:
Using this build, you should walk across the map the moment you spot nexus first or 1-gate FE with your initial units (4 stalkers, 3 sentries). This move will almost always force a nexus cannon and additional warp-ins and can even pick off a few probes and/or sentries (using forcefields). This little poke generally hits around 7:00, just before an immortal gets out. I have a 100% success rate with this getting me even or ahead in economy. Generally, I also couple this with the early forge variation .
EPT
Liquipedia
), it can be found in the replay pack here:
. The point here is that the earliest a normal 13-gate zealot/stalker poke will get to you is 5:30; if there are any zealot/stalker pokes before that time, you automatically know he went for a 10-gate (or a 12-gate, but that's less common).
