EPTPart 2 (normal cannon rush)
Part 1 (Heavy cannon rush)
Here you go:
[G] Reacting to cannon rushes
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
|
blade55555
United States17423 Posts
Part 2 (normal cannon rush) Part 1 (Heavy cannon rush) Here you go: | ||
|
TheTrueKerry
Canada34 Posts
| ||
|
-Kaiser-
Canada932 Posts
| ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
Akilon is perhaps the only map where this type of response truly works, but it seems like a definite working model. | ||
|
Rickyvalle21
United States320 Posts
| ||
|
NoNonsense
Malaysia43 Posts
| ||
|
ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
On November 12 2013 11:35 NoNonsense wrote: I think a better response to this kind of cannon rush especially when you opened pool first would be to pull drones. You can pull around 6-7 drones once you spot it and hit one of the pylons(with the large surface area all of the drones should be able to take it down quickly). Leave one drone on the opened path once the pylon go down, so that he cannot reseal it, and use the rest of the drones to hit the cannon. Lings should arrive just slightly after the pylon goes down and will help to deal with all the cannons. It's alright to pull many drones as he has invested heavily into the initial 3 pylons. If you watch the video blade explains he is in a good position BECAUSE no drones died and he didnt needlessly throw away units. So I feel like blade's response to this ridiculous cannon rush (so many pylons and cannons) was fine. Granted the protoss likely didnt need to make so many pylons so early and delay his gas or choose immortal sentry on this map but thats a seperate issue. The fact is protoss invested a lot, and blade didnt lose enough to justify the damage toss did to himself in this game. | ||
|
NoNonsense
Malaysia43 Posts
On November 12 2013 12:05 ZeromuS wrote: If you watch the video blade explains he is in a good position BECAUSE no drones died and he didnt needlessly throw away units. So I feel like blade's response to this ridiculous cannon rush (so many pylons and cannons) was fine. Granted the protoss likely didnt need to make so many pylons so early and delay his gas or choose immortal sentry on this map but thats a seperate issue. The fact is protoss invested a lot, and blade didnt lose enough to justify the damage toss did to himself in this game. It is exactly because I watched the video that I suggested a better option. The protoss opponent over invested so much it's not even funny and still came out way ahead economy wise. He made 3 cannon and 2 pylon at the hatch when he could have made one of each. If he did made one, he could have started the gateway and assimilators much earlier. He also skimped on a sentry. With a sentry to delay, the roaches would never have made it in. Notice that the cannon was started when the pool finished up. If lings are immediately built they will spawn when the cannons are only half done, and with the wall taken down by drones, and weakened cannons, the protoss will be forced to cancel them. No reasons why any drones should be lost anyway, because the cannons never get up | ||
|
-RusH
United States240 Posts
| ||
|
weikor
Austria580 Posts
The ONLY time this is a decent response is if you went for Hatch first, and THEN he walls off your base. With your pool halfway done there is no reason not to shut this down with a drone pull. If you dont scout it in time, or go hatch first, I can see the reasoning, but why would you not pull 4 drones - kill a pylon, forcing the protoss to either abandon this strat, or to throw down even more cannons. No offense Blade, and thanks for making videos but : How can you call this a guide "How to..." when your response hasn't even been thought through all the way by yourself. I should have taken gas floating 500 minerals and you end up behind after his rush | ||
|
MisterKatosS
France352 Posts
- Expanding at your natural was clearly a blunder, but what if you saved the drone took your third an build only (mostly) fighting units there? then you can sandwich the cannons ! - I don't see whats the protoss plan there: what was he doing with the gate up the ramp ? why did he add three canon separated to the firs two ? it does not seem coherent to me - when you countered with roaches why did you not leave them behind the natural out of canon range killing what you can ? | ||
NovemberstOrm
Canada16217 Posts
On November 12 2013 17:22 MisterKatosS wrote: Some questions : - Expanding at your natural was clearly a blunder, but what if you saved the drone took your third an build only (mostly) fighting units there? then you can sandwich the cannons ! - I don't see whats the protoss plan there: what was he doing with the gate up the ramp ? why did he add three canon separated to the firs two ? it does not seem coherent to me - when you countered with roaches why did you not leave them behind the natural out of canon range killing what you can ? The gateway up the ramp is for highground vision | ||
|
Kalmasc
Finland41 Posts
 | ||
|
Incand
143 Posts
I see some people suggested to pull drones to kill the pylons.. does this really work for you? as in you actually won a game doing this? i tried this and it just never work. by the time the pylon goes down he already got cannons finishing up and he can further wallin from the lowground with around the destructable plate. and i lose so much income pulling those drones while he doesnt lose any really since he already commited. | ||
|
growlizing
Norway122 Posts
On November 12 2013 11:10 -Kaiser- wrote: I would have preferred a demo of a more typical cannon rush. 2 pylons and 1 or 2 cannons is all it takes to deny the natural. Me too, two pylons in a choke blocking off a cannon + maybe a 2nd cannon. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
Added to recommended threads. | ||
|
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On November 12 2013 11:23 Rickyvalle21 wrote: I don't think this video is a good representation of how to not overreact to a canon rush because your opponent played that horribly wrong. On November 12 2013 12:43 NoNonsense wrote: It is exactly because I watched the video that I suggested a better option. The protoss opponent over invested so much it's not even funny and still came out way ahead economy wise. He made 3 cannon and 2 pylon at the hatch when he could have made one of each. If he did made one, he could have started the gateway and assimilators much earlier. He also skimped on a sentry. With a sentry to delay, the roaches would never have made it in. Notice that the cannon was started when the pool finished up. If lings are immediately built they will spawn when the cannons are only half done, and with the wall taken down by drones, and weakened cannons, the protoss will be forced to cancel them. No reasons why any drones should be lost anyway, because the cannons never get up On November 12 2013 13:14 weikor wrote: This is definitely not the ideal response to it. The ONLY time this is a decent response is if you went for Hatch first, and THEN he walls off your base. With your pool halfway done there is no reason not to shut this down with a drone pull. If you dont scout it in time, or go hatch first, I can see the reasoning, but why would you not pull 4 drones - kill a pylon, forcing the protoss to either abandon this strat, or to throw down even more cannons. No offense Blade, and thanks for making videos but : How can you call this a guide "How to..." when your response hasn't even been thought through all the way by yourself. I should have taken gas floating 500 minerals and you end up behind after his rush I think you guys aren't getting it. Blade specifically states that this response is the best response against someone who goes balls to the wall cannons (more than 2); in the video, he says you don't need roaches to clear one or two cannons. HOWEVER, when your opponent does try to do a bunch of cannon junk, roach play is definitely optimal. Even if your opponent cancels a couple of cannons or doesn't go as heavy as the guy in the video, you break out faster and force more cannons at your opponent's natural. After a cannon rush, there's nothing your opponent can do to stop you from going 3 hatch. Granted, the guy in the video was metagaming super hard, but that doesn't mean both players sucked and this isn't a good representation. I don't think it's smart to argue that you know better than the KR masters player. It's POSSIBLE to pull drones and get the perfect surround on the first pylon and make sure that your first lings get there to finish off the first cannon just before it completes, etc., etc., but it's a lot more complicated than "just go double gas, get enough for roaches, then double expand" which puts you in a fairly equal spot. On November 12 2013 22:22 Teoita wrote: Fuck yeah bladey blade Added to recommended threads. And why the hell would you let people access this? We need to keep this a secret so we can keep beating 1-base nydus! | ||
|
NoNonsense
Malaysia43 Posts
On November 12 2013 23:21 SC2John wrote: I think you guys aren't getting it. Blade specifically states that this response is the best response against someone who goes balls to the wall cannons (more than 2); in the video, he says you don't need roaches to clear one or two cannons. HOWEVER, when your opponent does try to do a bunch of cannon junk, roach play is definitely optimal. Even if your opponent cancels a couple of cannons or doesn't go as heavy as the guy in the video, you break out faster and force more cannons at your opponent's natural. After a cannon rush, there's nothing your opponent can do to stop you from going 3 hatch. Granted, the guy in the video was metagaming super hard, but that doesn't mean both players sucked and this isn't a good representation. I don't think it's smart to argue that you know better than the KR masters player. It's POSSIBLE to pull drones and get the perfect surround on the first pylon and make sure that your first lings get there to finish off the first cannon just before it completes, etc., etc., but it's a lot more complicated than "just go double gas, get enough for roaches, then double expand" which puts you in a fairly equal spot. And why the hell would you let people access this? We need to keep this a secret so we can keep beating 1-base nydus! When playing on a ladder, you never really know what your opponent is going to do next. When you see the 3 pylons above the ramp, you have no information to know whether he is going to continue to overcommit to cannons, or just put up 2 below the ramp. My point here is what if the protoss did not make the mistake of building an extra (2 cannons+ 1 pylon) 400 minerals worth of units, you will be as delayed, while he would have had all his tech brought forward. This type of cannon rush reminds me of the 3 pylon under the ramp before the neutral supply depot was introduced. It was impossible to come back unless there was a big error by protoss then, and remains so now. The only difference between then and now is that the initial building pylon has much more surface area now, and our response should capitalize on that. On another note, it is NOT more complicated to pull drones, rather i would think it is the simplest answer. How hard is it to box 6-7 drones and click on the pylon? Granted you have to notice the pylons early, and also split up your drones to attack the building cannons, but i believe any diamond player and above should be able to do so. If you hold off this cannon rush the way i suggested, not only are you not behind, you would be massively ahead as you can double expand at the same time as his nexus. | ||
|
[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
| ||
|
NovemberstOrm
Canada16217 Posts
Thanks for the guide blade. | ||
| ||
