EPTPart 2 (normal cannon rush)
Part 1 (Heavy cannon rush)
Here you go:
[G] Reacting to cannon rushes
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
Part 2 (normal cannon rush) Part 1 (Heavy cannon rush) Here you go: | ||
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TheTrueKerry
Canada34 Posts
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-Kaiser-
Canada932 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
Akilon is perhaps the only map where this type of response truly works, but it seems like a definite working model. | ||
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Rickyvalle21
United States320 Posts
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NoNonsense
Malaysia43 Posts
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ZeromuS
Canada13386 Posts
On November 12 2013 11:35 NoNonsense wrote: I think a better response to this kind of cannon rush especially when you opened pool first would be to pull drones. You can pull around 6-7 drones once you spot it and hit one of the pylons(with the large surface area all of the drones should be able to take it down quickly). Leave one drone on the opened path once the pylon go down, so that he cannot reseal it, and use the rest of the drones to hit the cannon. Lings should arrive just slightly after the pylon goes down and will help to deal with all the cannons. It's alright to pull many drones as he has invested heavily into the initial 3 pylons. If you watch the video blade explains he is in a good position BECAUSE no drones died and he didnt needlessly throw away units. So I feel like blade's response to this ridiculous cannon rush (so many pylons and cannons) was fine. Granted the protoss likely didnt need to make so many pylons so early and delay his gas or choose immortal sentry on this map but thats a seperate issue. The fact is protoss invested a lot, and blade didnt lose enough to justify the damage toss did to himself in this game. | ||
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NoNonsense
Malaysia43 Posts
On November 12 2013 12:05 ZeromuS wrote: If you watch the video blade explains he is in a good position BECAUSE no drones died and he didnt needlessly throw away units. So I feel like blade's response to this ridiculous cannon rush (so many pylons and cannons) was fine. Granted the protoss likely didnt need to make so many pylons so early and delay his gas or choose immortal sentry on this map but thats a seperate issue. The fact is protoss invested a lot, and blade didnt lose enough to justify the damage toss did to himself in this game. It is exactly because I watched the video that I suggested a better option. The protoss opponent over invested so much it's not even funny and still came out way ahead economy wise. He made 3 cannon and 2 pylon at the hatch when he could have made one of each. If he did made one, he could have started the gateway and assimilators much earlier. He also skimped on a sentry. With a sentry to delay, the roaches would never have made it in. Notice that the cannon was started when the pool finished up. If lings are immediately built they will spawn when the cannons are only half done, and with the wall taken down by drones, and weakened cannons, the protoss will be forced to cancel them. No reasons why any drones should be lost anyway, because the cannons never get up | ||
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-RusH
United States240 Posts
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weikor
Austria580 Posts
The ONLY time this is a decent response is if you went for Hatch first, and THEN he walls off your base. With your pool halfway done there is no reason not to shut this down with a drone pull. If you dont scout it in time, or go hatch first, I can see the reasoning, but why would you not pull 4 drones - kill a pylon, forcing the protoss to either abandon this strat, or to throw down even more cannons. No offense Blade, and thanks for making videos but : How can you call this a guide "How to..." when your response hasn't even been thought through all the way by yourself. I should have taken gas floating 500 minerals and you end up behind after his rush | ||
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MisterKatosS
France352 Posts
- Expanding at your natural was clearly a blunder, but what if you saved the drone took your third an build only (mostly) fighting units there? then you can sandwich the cannons ! - I don't see whats the protoss plan there: what was he doing with the gate up the ramp ? why did he add three canon separated to the firs two ? it does not seem coherent to me - when you countered with roaches why did you not leave them behind the natural out of canon range killing what you can ? | ||
NovemberstOrm
Canada16217 Posts
On November 12 2013 17:22 MisterKatosS wrote: Some questions : - Expanding at your natural was clearly a blunder, but what if you saved the drone took your third an build only (mostly) fighting units there? then you can sandwich the cannons ! - I don't see whats the protoss plan there: what was he doing with the gate up the ramp ? why did he add three canon separated to the firs two ? it does not seem coherent to me - when you countered with roaches why did you not leave them behind the natural out of canon range killing what you can ? The gateway up the ramp is for highground vision | ||
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Kalmasc
Finland41 Posts
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Incand
143 Posts
I see some people suggested to pull drones to kill the pylons.. does this really work for you? as in you actually won a game doing this? i tried this and it just never work. by the time the pylon goes down he already got cannons finishing up and he can further wallin from the lowground with around the destructable plate. and i lose so much income pulling those drones while he doesnt lose any really since he already commited. | ||
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growlizing
Norway122 Posts
On November 12 2013 11:10 -Kaiser- wrote: I would have preferred a demo of a more typical cannon rush. 2 pylons and 1 or 2 cannons is all it takes to deny the natural. Me too, two pylons in a choke blocking off a cannon + maybe a 2nd cannon. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
Added to recommended threads. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On November 12 2013 11:23 Rickyvalle21 wrote: I don't think this video is a good representation of how to not overreact to a canon rush because your opponent played that horribly wrong. On November 12 2013 12:43 NoNonsense wrote: It is exactly because I watched the video that I suggested a better option. The protoss opponent over invested so much it's not even funny and still came out way ahead economy wise. He made 3 cannon and 2 pylon at the hatch when he could have made one of each. If he did made one, he could have started the gateway and assimilators much earlier. He also skimped on a sentry. With a sentry to delay, the roaches would never have made it in. Notice that the cannon was started when the pool finished up. If lings are immediately built they will spawn when the cannons are only half done, and with the wall taken down by drones, and weakened cannons, the protoss will be forced to cancel them. No reasons why any drones should be lost anyway, because the cannons never get up On November 12 2013 13:14 weikor wrote: This is definitely not the ideal response to it. The ONLY time this is a decent response is if you went for Hatch first, and THEN he walls off your base. With your pool halfway done there is no reason not to shut this down with a drone pull. If you dont scout it in time, or go hatch first, I can see the reasoning, but why would you not pull 4 drones - kill a pylon, forcing the protoss to either abandon this strat, or to throw down even more cannons. No offense Blade, and thanks for making videos but : How can you call this a guide "How to..." when your response hasn't even been thought through all the way by yourself. I should have taken gas floating 500 minerals and you end up behind after his rush I think you guys aren't getting it. Blade specifically states that this response is the best response against someone who goes balls to the wall cannons (more than 2); in the video, he says you don't need roaches to clear one or two cannons. HOWEVER, when your opponent does try to do a bunch of cannon junk, roach play is definitely optimal. Even if your opponent cancels a couple of cannons or doesn't go as heavy as the guy in the video, you break out faster and force more cannons at your opponent's natural. After a cannon rush, there's nothing your opponent can do to stop you from going 3 hatch. Granted, the guy in the video was metagaming super hard, but that doesn't mean both players sucked and this isn't a good representation. I don't think it's smart to argue that you know better than the KR masters player. It's POSSIBLE to pull drones and get the perfect surround on the first pylon and make sure that your first lings get there to finish off the first cannon just before it completes, etc., etc., but it's a lot more complicated than "just go double gas, get enough for roaches, then double expand" which puts you in a fairly equal spot. On November 12 2013 22:22 Teoita wrote: Fuck yeah bladey blade Added to recommended threads. And why the hell would you let people access this? We need to keep this a secret so we can keep beating 1-base nydus! | ||
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NoNonsense
Malaysia43 Posts
On November 12 2013 23:21 SC2John wrote: I think you guys aren't getting it. Blade specifically states that this response is the best response against someone who goes balls to the wall cannons (more than 2); in the video, he says you don't need roaches to clear one or two cannons. HOWEVER, when your opponent does try to do a bunch of cannon junk, roach play is definitely optimal. Even if your opponent cancels a couple of cannons or doesn't go as heavy as the guy in the video, you break out faster and force more cannons at your opponent's natural. After a cannon rush, there's nothing your opponent can do to stop you from going 3 hatch. Granted, the guy in the video was metagaming super hard, but that doesn't mean both players sucked and this isn't a good representation. I don't think it's smart to argue that you know better than the KR masters player. It's POSSIBLE to pull drones and get the perfect surround on the first pylon and make sure that your first lings get there to finish off the first cannon just before it completes, etc., etc., but it's a lot more complicated than "just go double gas, get enough for roaches, then double expand" which puts you in a fairly equal spot. And why the hell would you let people access this? We need to keep this a secret so we can keep beating 1-base nydus! When playing on a ladder, you never really know what your opponent is going to do next. When you see the 3 pylons above the ramp, you have no information to know whether he is going to continue to overcommit to cannons, or just put up 2 below the ramp. My point here is what if the protoss did not make the mistake of building an extra (2 cannons+ 1 pylon) 400 minerals worth of units, you will be as delayed, while he would have had all his tech brought forward. This type of cannon rush reminds me of the 3 pylon under the ramp before the neutral supply depot was introduced. It was impossible to come back unless there was a big error by protoss then, and remains so now. The only difference between then and now is that the initial building pylon has much more surface area now, and our response should capitalize on that. On another note, it is NOT more complicated to pull drones, rather i would think it is the simplest answer. How hard is it to box 6-7 drones and click on the pylon? Granted you have to notice the pylons early, and also split up your drones to attack the building cannons, but i believe any diamond player and above should be able to do so. If you hold off this cannon rush the way i suggested, not only are you not behind, you would be massively ahead as you can double expand at the same time as his nexus. | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
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NovemberstOrm
Canada16217 Posts
Thanks for the guide blade. | ||
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sc2chronic
United States777 Posts
good tosses will only make enough cannons (usually one is all it can take) to deny the expo and be ahead. stopping them from getting a cannon up behind natural mineral line comes with good scouting and drone micro. i can confirm zvp these days is littered with all sorts of cannon rushes because of wcs. there are too many different variations of it and you only gave a solution to one variation of a cannon rush. im going to agree with some ppl in here and say that this should be re-titled to "How to play normal after opponent invests 1000 minerals into cannon rushing". common sense should tell you to macro up behind it. also, for the love of god get a new mic. Puh-Puh-Puh-lease! | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
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Rokevo
Finland1033 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On November 12 2013 21:17 growlizing wrote: Me too, two pylons in a choke blocking off a cannon + maybe a 2nd cannon. I will do another cannon rush video show casing my response to it (a normal one). I did this one as I know that quiet a few protosses (specially lower levels) will do cannon rushes like this. I will do a part 2 probably this weekend going over the standard cannon rush .On November 13 2013 20:09 [F_]aths wrote: It is more about the position of the micro. If it would be positioned were it is not directly in the air stream, it would not generate such noises. But I agree that even though ones like to watch Blade's video for the quality content, I would be nice if he could reduce the microphone "puh" issue. What is the puh issue? I thought it was just too quiet? Is it when there is a random kinda loud noise? I will move the mic further from mouth and increase volume a little bit so that people can hear it better. Appreciate the feedback! | ||
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Crypdos
Netherlands110 Posts
Actually, even after botching his cannonrush he still seemed ahead. Had he just macrod better and not let the roaches in. And imagine if he actually did a decent job at cannonrushing, then he would've been miles ahead. People have been cannonrushing since the start of sc2, and 1base roach has been one of the responses to it.. It's pretty common knowledge by now that it "should not work". Sorry for the agressive tone, but it is just stupid to base a stategy like this on a really sloppy game and then even claim that going 1base roach is THE way to deal with cannonrushes. I could say that 10pool speed is good vs terran, and prove it by showing a replay of a terran not walling and getting overrun... | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13386 Posts
On November 13 2013 23:57 Crypdos wrote: You won because the toss played bad, not because going 1base roach is the perfect response to cannonrushes like this ... Let's be honest now. The cannonrush itself was pretty bad (going 3 pylons on highground what? Then adding a gateway into the cannonrush?) and then he made hilarious avoidable mistakes like letting the roaches in or making a cannon in his main, or not mining gas. Actually, even after botching his cannonrush he still seemed ahead. Had he just macrod better and not let the roaches in. And imagine if he actually did a decent job at cannonrushing, then he would've been miles ahead. People have been cannonrushing since the start of sc2, and 1base roach has been one of the responses to it.. It's pretty common knowledge by now that it "should not work". Sorry for the agressive tone, but it is just stupid to base a stategy like this on a really sloppy game and then even claim that going 1base roach is THE way to deal with cannonrushes. I could say that 10pool speed is good vs terran, and prove it by showing a replay of a terran not walling and getting overrun... I think that staying calm, not losing drones, and pressuring with roaches is what blade is trying to impress on people. Too often people will lose drones, throw lings away and make a few spines to kill the cannons and let protoss macro without worry. Granted yeah the toss did play it out poorly, for lower level players this kind of example is great. Don't freak out, don't lose drones, pressure and resume your game plan. All great tips. And as Blade says above he will make another video showing how to respond to a less aggressive cannon rush like the one shown here. | ||
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Incand
143 Posts
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RaLakedaimon
United States1564 Posts
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UltiBahamut
United States102 Posts
EDIT: Err you can actually start breaking out with 1-3 pretty quickly and start pushing for the contain with about 8ish  But roaches are fun as well. | ||
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MonkeyBot
United States125 Posts
Sticking with the hatch tech responses, could burrow tech plus a little roach micro make this even stronger? | ||
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UltiBahamut
United States102 Posts
But as blade showed, roaches are perfectly fine and more standard way of breaking out as it works perfectly fine. Anyways. Roach burrow could help you get out, but just as much as pulling wounded roaches back. Cannons have vision anyways and even with his counter push you cooooooouuuuuld do roach burrow shenanigans until he gets out enough detection but since Blade's thing hit about the same time the robo finished it probably wouldn't be able to make up the extra 100/100 on top of the roaches themselves. | ||
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MonkeyBot
United States125 Posts
On November 19 2013 02:32 UltiBahamut wrote: How is it coin flippy? queens + swarm hosts will hold pretty much anything they do. I hate nydus play so i invest in ovie speed and do a creep highway and putting tumors the whole way, much cheaper and easier to retreat as your whole army moves at once and isnt standing there hoping to get in a nydus worm before they or it dies. But as blade showed, roaches are perfectly fine and more standard way of breaking out as it works perfectly fine. Anyways. Roach burrow could help you get out, but just as much as pulling wounded roaches back. Cannons have vision anyways and even with his counter push you cooooooouuuuuld do roach burrow shenanigans until he gets out enough detection but since Blade's thing hit about the same time the robo finished it probably wouldn't be able to make up the extra 100/100 on top of the roaches themselves. On one base, I can only get so many swarm hosts. I can win if his economy is crap, but if not, I have trouble. On a recent game, I pushed against the cannon contain with too few - the toss just bolstered the cannons to kill the locusts before they could do real damage, and replaced the cannons and pylons that my hosts slowly killed, all while taking the map. I wonder if there's a critical mass of hosts needed to kill a really serious cannon contain? I see your point on burrow. I have a soft spot for nydus vs cannon aggression... + Show Spoiler + because a guy recently cannoned me in, then basically called me a noob for losing a few drones and putting up spines (I am pretty bad, but that's beside the point). I saw Lowko do a 1-base nydus in response to a pylon block on his stream, so I decided to try, unrehearsed. I nydused his main with speedlings and cleaned out the whole base, even though he had walled his ramp with gates and pylons. Then he told me I still 'won't be able to win like that'. I got spores/spines in time when he tried to DT me and he left without a gg soon after. That may be the most fun I've had in a single game. Good points, thanks for the reply! | ||
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Sufinsil
United States760 Posts
The 2 cannons at the bottom of the ramp were freebies. Plus the protoss should have had a Stargate and Voidray way earlier, but he wasted 450 or more minerals and had very late gas. No Mothership core started. He should have built 2 more cannons after seeing that many roaches. Hell he built a cannon at the top of the ramp of his main for no reason. No warp prism with his push. Should have came from below the 3rd. Why not hatch block his expo? Scenarios to look at: vs Pool first 1) pylon wall in natural minerals, harder for protoss to pull off 2) Top of Ramp contain, very fast forge and 3 pylons (shown in video, pylons being made while pool half done) I would call this a Cannon Contain, not a cannon rush. vs Hatch first 1) pylon wall in natural minerals. 1-2 cannons 2) Cannons built to cover bottom of main ramp. More investment in contain. 3) Top of Ramp contain. Later lings and queens. | ||
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Denzil
United Kingdom4193 Posts
On November 12 2013 17:22 MisterKatosS wrote: Some questions : - Expanding at your natural was clearly a blunder, but what if you saved the drone took your third an build only (mostly) fighting units there? then you can sandwich the cannons ! - I don't see whats the protoss plan there: what was he doing with the gate up the ramp ? why did he add three canon separated to the firs two ? it does not seem coherent to me - when you countered with roaches why did you not leave them behind the natural out of canon range killing what you can ? Question 1, he made the hatchery to force more cannons I believe, the pylon range was no enough to build a cannon in range of the hatchery and the hatchery was not in range of the cannons, if the protoss had left it as is he wouldn't of actually achieved anything apart from controlling the ramp, by building that hatch the protoss MUST respond to it with more cannons or the already hefty investment is worth fuckall question 2, that was for vision so his cannons could react to anything attacking the pylons question 3, he should have left them at the nat to deny mining for a longer period but in the heat of the moment as cool as blade is playing it im sure the temptation to wreck untold havoc in the main mineral line popped into his head as he tried to sneak up the ramp got caught out and thought bollocks shouldn't of got greedy as his roaches got trapped good video blade, i do indeed think that a lot of people overreact to cannon rushes and as a result the standard way of replying to them (nydus all ins and so on) have become very predictable, to the point where they dont even work, I think the protoss could of played that game much better with less mistakes and the result may have been different, but then again you could of also played the game better. I guess it's these sorts of mistakes you stay in the game to jump upon when your opponent makes them | ||
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Dwayn
Germany949 Posts
In essence I feel you won because you played far better and afterwards. | ||
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Gene(S)is
Sweden419 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
Part 2 (normal cannon rush) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sURGav1Qpy4&feature=youtu.be | ||
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Rusty Eyeballs
United States30 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On December 15 2013 16:55 Rusty Eyeballs wrote: I agree with one of the posters that this is 1 version of many different cannon rushes. I think this really only helps a very specific scenario. That's why I have 2 videos, 1 for that crazzyyyy cannon rush and the other for a normal one | ||
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TheFlexN
Israel472 Posts
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Spec
Taiwan931 Posts
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