this is only one type of cannon rush the toss can do. another one is hidden behind natural mineral line. most of the time they will not get more than 3 cannons like he did in this replay. his production of 2 useless cannons and letting roaches into his natural makes it seem like he must be in diamond league, even if in korea. with common sense zerg should realize hes not behind at all once he takes down the cannons and goes into straight macro game.
good tosses will only make enough cannons (usually one is all it can take) to deny the expo and be ahead. stopping them from getting a cannon up behind natural mineral line comes with good scouting and drone micro.
i can confirm zvp these days is littered with all sorts of cannon rushes because of wcs. there are too many different variations of it and you only gave a solution to one variation of a cannon rush. im going to agree with some ppl in here and say that this should be re-titled to "How to play normal after opponent invests 1000 minerals into cannon rushing". common sense should tell you to macro up behind it.
also, for the love of god get a new mic. Puh-Puh-Puh-lease!
It is more about the position of the micro. If it would be positioned were it is not directly in the air stream, it would not generate such noises. But I agree that even though ones like to watch Blade's video for the quality content, I would be nice if he could reduce the microphone "puh" issue.
On November 12 2013 11:10 -Kaiser- wrote: I would have preferred a demo of a more typical cannon rush. 2 pylons and 1 or 2 cannons is all it takes to deny the natural.
Me too, two pylons in a choke blocking off a cannon + maybe a 2nd cannon.
I will do another cannon rush video show casing my response to it (a normal one). I did this one as I know that quiet a few protosses (specially lower levels) will do cannon rushes like this.
I will do a part 2 probably this weekend going over the standard cannon rush .
On November 13 2013 20:09 [F_]aths wrote: It is more about the position of the micro. If it would be positioned were it is not directly in the air stream, it would not generate such noises. But I agree that even though ones like to watch Blade's video for the quality content, I would be nice if he could reduce the microphone "puh" issue.
What is the puh issue? I thought it was just too quiet? Is it when there is a random kinda loud noise? I will move the mic further from mouth and increase volume a little bit so that people can hear it better.
You won because the toss played bad, not because going 1base roach is the perfect response to cannonrushes like this ... Let's be honest now. The cannonrush itself was pretty bad (going 3 pylons on highground what? Then adding a gateway into the cannonrush?) and then he made hilarious avoidable mistakes like letting the roaches in or making a cannon in his main, or not mining gas. Actually, even after botching his cannonrush he still seemed ahead. Had he just macrod better and not let the roaches in. And imagine if he actually did a decent job at cannonrushing, then he would've been miles ahead. People have been cannonrushing since the start of sc2, and 1base roach has been one of the responses to it.. It's pretty common knowledge by now that it "should not work".
Sorry for the agressive tone, but it is just stupid to base a stategy like this on a really sloppy game and then even claim that going 1base roach is THE way to deal with cannonrushes. I could say that 10pool speed is good vs terran, and prove it by showing a replay of a terran not walling and getting overrun...
On November 13 2013 23:57 Crypdos wrote: You won because the toss played bad, not because going 1base roach is the perfect response to cannonrushes like this ... Let's be honest now. The cannonrush itself was pretty bad (going 3 pylons on highground what? Then adding a gateway into the cannonrush?) and then he made hilarious avoidable mistakes like letting the roaches in or making a cannon in his main, or not mining gas. Actually, even after botching his cannonrush he still seemed ahead. Had he just macrod better and not let the roaches in. And imagine if he actually did a decent job at cannonrushing, then he would've been miles ahead. People have been cannonrushing since the start of sc2, and 1base roach has been one of the responses to it.. It's pretty common knowledge by now that it "should not work".
Sorry for the agressive tone, but it is just stupid to base a stategy like this on a really sloppy game and then even claim that going 1base roach is THE way to deal with cannonrushes. I could say that 10pool speed is good vs terran, and prove it by showing a replay of a terran not walling and getting overrun...
I think that staying calm, not losing drones, and pressuring with roaches is what blade is trying to impress on people. Too often people will lose drones, throw lings away and make a few spines to kill the cannons and let protoss macro without worry.
Granted yeah the toss did play it out poorly, for lower level players this kind of example is great. Don't freak out, don't lose drones, pressure and resume your game plan. All great tips. And as Blade says above he will make another video showing how to respond to a less aggressive cannon rush like the one shown here.
Just faced a similar cannonrush.. and despite me saying that pulling drones doesn't work I did that.. and it worked. The difference being i had one drone already outside so i got 7 drones hitting on the pylon and managed to shut it down with ease but I think it can be done just by reacting fast. Still i think this roach response is the best thing to do when you're not fast enough. If anyone want to see replay: http://ggtracker.com/matches/4374268
Nice video Blade, I don't even play as Zerg but I thought I'd give it a watch for a second and ended up watching the entire thing. Good quality vid/commentary. ^_^
Ehhhhhh personally i just prefer going swarm hosts after they commit that much. once i get up 8ish which is easy off 1 base they are so delayed that you can break out/take your nat and start pushing out for a contain while building up queens for a stargate all in.
EDIT: Err you can actually start breaking out with 1-3 pretty quickly and start pushing for the contain with about 8ish But roaches are fun as well.
Thanks for the guide Blade, and thanks to Novemberst0rm for the written version. I've had success with drone pulls when I spot the first pylon early enough, but many failures as well. SH and 1 base nydus are fun, but coin flippy IMO. Your approach seems best.
Sticking with the hatch tech responses, could burrow tech plus a little roach micro make this even stronger?
How is it coin flippy? queens + swarm hosts will hold pretty much anything they do. I hate nydus play so i invest in ovie speed and do a creep highway and putting tumors the whole way, much cheaper and easier to retreat as your whole army moves at once and isnt standing there hoping to get in a nydus worm before they or it dies. But as blade showed, roaches are perfectly fine and more standard way of breaking out as it works perfectly fine.
Anyways. Roach burrow could help you get out, but just as much as pulling wounded roaches back. Cannons have vision anyways and even with his counter push you cooooooouuuuuld do roach burrow shenanigans until he gets out enough detection but since Blade's thing hit about the same time the robo finished it probably wouldn't be able to make up the extra 100/100 on top of the roaches themselves.
On November 19 2013 02:32 UltiBahamut wrote: How is it coin flippy? queens + swarm hosts will hold pretty much anything they do. I hate nydus play so i invest in ovie speed and do a creep highway and putting tumors the whole way, much cheaper and easier to retreat as your whole army moves at once and isnt standing there hoping to get in a nydus worm before they or it dies. But as blade showed, roaches are perfectly fine and more standard way of breaking out as it works perfectly fine.
Anyways. Roach burrow could help you get out, but just as much as pulling wounded roaches back. Cannons have vision anyways and even with his counter push you cooooooouuuuuld do roach burrow shenanigans until he gets out enough detection but since Blade's thing hit about the same time the robo finished it probably wouldn't be able to make up the extra 100/100 on top of the roaches themselves.
On one base, I can only get so many swarm hosts. I can win if his economy is crap, but if not, I have trouble. On a recent game, I pushed against the cannon contain with too few - the toss just bolstered the cannons to kill the locusts before they could do real damage, and replaced the cannons and pylons that my hosts slowly killed, all while taking the map. I wonder if there's a critical mass of hosts needed to kill a really serious cannon contain?
I see your point on burrow. I have a soft spot for nydus vs cannon aggression... + Show Spoiler +
because a guy recently cannoned me in, then basically called me a noob for losing a few drones and putting up spines (I am pretty bad, but that's beside the point). I saw Lowko do a 1-base nydus in response to a pylon block on his stream, so I decided to try, unrehearsed. I nydused his main with speedlings and cleaned out the whole base, even though he had walled his ramp with gates and pylons. Then he told me I still 'won't be able to win like that'. I got spores/spines in time when he tried to DT me and he left without a gg soon after. That may be the most fun I've had in a single game.
I think how to deal with the atypical cannon rush, pylon wall behind the mineral line with 1-2 cannons, would be a lot more useful. Or how to deal with 3 cannons in your natural while also covering the ramp.
The 2 cannons at the bottom of the ramp were freebies. Plus the protoss should have had a Stargate and Voidray way earlier, but he wasted 450 or more minerals and had very late gas. No Mothership core started. He should have built 2 more cannons after seeing that many roaches. Hell he built a cannon at the top of the ramp of his main for no reason. No warp prism with his push. Should have came from below the 3rd.
Why not hatch block his expo?
Scenarios to look at: vs Pool first 1) pylon wall in natural minerals, harder for protoss to pull off 2) Top of Ramp contain, very fast forge and 3 pylons (shown in video, pylons being made while pool half done) I would call this a Cannon Contain, not a cannon rush.
vs Hatch first 1) pylon wall in natural minerals. 1-2 cannons 2) Cannons built to cover bottom of main ramp. More investment in contain. 3) Top of Ramp contain. Later lings and queens.
On November 12 2013 17:22 MisterKatosS wrote: Some questions :
- Expanding at your natural was clearly a blunder, but what if you saved the drone took your third an build only (mostly) fighting units there? then you can sandwich the cannons !
- I don't see whats the protoss plan there: what was he doing with the gate up the ramp ? why did he add three canon separated to the firs two ? it does not seem coherent to me
- when you countered with roaches why did you not leave them behind the natural out of canon range killing what you can ?
Question 1, he made the hatchery to force more cannons I believe, the pylon range was no enough to build a cannon in range of the hatchery and the hatchery was not in range of the cannons, if the protoss had left it as is he wouldn't of actually achieved anything apart from controlling the ramp, by building that hatch the protoss MUST respond to it with more cannons or the already hefty investment is worth fuckall
question 2, that was for vision so his cannons could react to anything attacking the pylons
question 3, he should have left them at the nat to deny mining for a longer period but in the heat of the moment as cool as blade is playing it im sure the temptation to wreck untold havoc in the main mineral line popped into his head as he tried to sneak up the ramp got caught out and thought bollocks shouldn't of got greedy as his roaches got trapped
good video blade, i do indeed think that a lot of people overreact to cannon rushes and as a result the standard way of replying to them (nydus all ins and so on) have become very predictable, to the point where they dont even work, I think the protoss could of played that game much better with less mistakes and the result may have been different, but then again you could of also played the game better.
I guess it's these sorts of mistakes you stay in the game to jump upon when your opponent makes them
Didn't really convince me. I think he was far ahead and fucked up. Letting those roaches in his natural should have never happened. His follow up sentry//immo follow up seems bad on this map. In essence I feel you won because you played far better and afterwards.
On December 15 2013 16:55 Rusty Eyeballs wrote: I agree with one of the posters that this is 1 version of many different cannon rushes. I think this really only helps a very specific scenario.
That's why I have 2 videos, 1 for that crazzyyyy cannon rush and the other for a normal one
EPT
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But roaches are fun as well.
