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[G] ZvT Roach/Ling Baneling "Big Bust"

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-04 20:25:37
January 26 2012 20:19 GMT
#1
[G] ZvT Roach/Ling/Baneling "Big Bust"

[image loading]

Hello TL Forum-Users!

Once again, I'd like to thank you all very much for viewing my newest ZvT article. I've written a few articles recently in which I analyze some ways of opening aggressively against Terran, while still transitioning into standard macro play. This will be my last ZvT guide for quite a while, and you can expect to see some new guides on ZvP and ZvZ in the near future.

If you've read my previous guides, you're likely aware that if you combine very precise early game economy management with solid scouting, you can punish your opponent with very strong timing attacks while droning to secure an economic advantage. Today will be a little different - I'm going to describe an even MORE aggressive style. We're going to look at the following timing attack:

8 Roaches, 6-8 Banelings, and 30 Zerglings by 8:20

Now I know what you might be thinking..."How the heck can you get that strong of a push at 8:20 without being all-in?" Well, surprise surprise, this IS an all-in build - You will not go beyond 22 drones with this attack. There will be some exceptions where you do the push and decide to drone afterwards, but for the most part this push is designed to outright win the game.

I know that many players frown at all-in aggressive builds, but it is my opinion that all serious SC2 gamers should experiment and perfect a few all-in timing attacks for two reasons: it does improve certain skill sets and it does add an element of unpredictability to your play. Should you make it your exclusive style of play? Of course not, but don't ignore it either.

So I've provided a stream video, some replays, and build order analysis to take you step by step through the process of planning a precise all-in build and executing the attack optimally. I guarantee there will be at least one person to say "This build is cheese, you shouldn't all in, etc" in the comments, but I have seen professional Korean zerg players execute builds like this in the GSL and I encourage you all to keep an open mind to new strategies that deviate from what is considered "Standard". There is more than one way to play successful StarCraft, and you're putting yourself at a disadvantage if you limit your arsenal of strategies to exclusively macro builds.

References:

+ Show Spoiler +

To perfect your opening build up to 44 supply, I suggest reading Step 3 of the Zerg Guide to Macro-Aggression: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=301616

Here is an example of a similar style used by DRG:
(Please comment with additional pro games using roach/ling/bane)


Replays:

+ Show Spoiler +


"Big Bust" Roach/Ling/Bane Stream Tutorial:
http://www.twitch.tv/tangsc/b/306466364

Tang vs deathwatcher(mass hellion/tank/marine)
http://drop.sc/112657

Tang vs ImgGartok(Cloak banshee)
http://drop.sc/112628

Tang vs Frego (Reactor expand)
http://drop.sc/98513

Tang vs Svane
http://drop.sc/98444

Tang vs OscarMike (Mass Marine Expand)
http://drop.sc/98446

Tang vs Jray (Bunker/Hellion/Marine/Banshee)
http://drop.sc/98447

Tang vs Pulimuli (Marine/Hellion Expand
http://drop.sc/98448

Tang vs Smaug (Tank/Marine/Bunker Defense)
http://drop.sc/98510

Tang vs bnYParadise (Hellion/Marauder)
http://drop.sc/98449

Vanrake vs FreeWare (2Rax)
http://drop.sc/98514


The Build:

+ Show Spoiler +

Opening Step 1: "Scouting and Planning"
You want to keep very precise timings on your buildings, overlords, and drones to ensure maximized mineral income. It's also very important to scout to determine whether terran is planning to pressure you so you can plan the response to hold that pressure without losing drones.

15Hatch (Drone Scout)
15Gas
15Pool
17Overlord
When Pool Finishes, you should have already determined your opponent's opening build. Against any build with gas, you're going to skip spine crawler defense and go right into 2-4 Lings and 2 Queens. The only time you will build spines is if your opponent is putting on 2Barracks pressure. (Builds like 1Barracks "Light" marine/scv pressure, reaper pressure, hellion openings, etc. can be shut down with proper queen/ling/drone micro until roaches are out. However, if your opponent has proxied his barracks or both his barracks finish by 3:00 (11/11 2Rax) then you will immediately need 2 spines at your expansion.
NOTE: If you struggle with early pressure because your drone micro is weak OR if you for some reason don't get the scouting information, it's not the end of the world to build one spine to be safe.

Opening Step 2: "Responding"
You should now have an idea of what your opponent is doing and planned your response accordingly. You should be practicing thin early game defenses while sticking to the follow steps. There are also a few little tricks to make defense easier (against hellions, for example).

17 Queenx2,
21 Lingx2-4 *Sometimes you can get away with producing 0 or 2 lings but for the majority of games, you'll want 4 to kill scouting SCVs, spot at the front of terran ramp, and hold the xel-naga towers.
23-28 Drones
28 Roach Warren, replace drone to 28
NOTE: Between 5:30-6:20 Reactor Hellions are a threat. Since your roaches don't spawn until 6:20 and you haven't built lings or spines, you could potentially be in a hazardous situation to even 2 hellions. It is never a bad idea, when you scout the hellions on the way, to wall your expansion ramp with your 2 queens and bring any drones from your expansion to your main. You will lose some mining time and you will miss a bit of larva-inject time, but no drones/queens will die before your roaches are out and that's the most important thing.

Opening Step 3: "Preparing the Push"
At this point, you've scouted your opponent's opening, you've easily defended all early pressure and you've kept all your build order steps the same so your roach warren is already on the way. Everything is in place for you to execute a well-timed all-in, you just need to start the upgrades and build the units.

28 Zergling Speed (Notice it's quite delayed)
28 Overlordsx2
28-44 Roachesx8
44 Baneling Nest (replace drone)
44 Overlords x2
44-60 Mass Lings rallied to roaches
Morph as many banes as you can in front of the terran base at 8:00
8:20 - 8Roaches, 6-8 Banelings, and 30+ Lings


The Execution:

+ Show Spoiler +
Execution Part 1: Disguise your Attack
Whenever you're executing a build like this, you want to make it as much of a surprise as possible for your opponent. Here are a few ways to deny his scouting:

1) Kill his scouting SCVs with zerglings/Queens.
- Use your opening zerglings to make sure he doesn't sneak an SCV into your main. Don't let this happen to you:

[image loading]

2) Build your warren in your main and your baneling nest at your expansion, he's less likely to scout both.

3) Don't show him all 8 roaches. If he's pressuring with hellions, don't reveal all of your roaches - just use 3-4 to push the hellions back to his base and THEN move out with your roaches

4) Plan to move your roaches out so that they arrive near the terran front at 8:00 and morph the banelings right away so you can move in to attack at 8:20.

5)Don't morph banelings too close, try to morph them outside of your opponent's vision. You want to group up as close to the terran front without giving his units/buildings vision of the impending attack.

[image loading]

Execution Part 2: Micro your Attack
The micro of this push is fairly easy, but you do have that constant element of keeping up with larva injects and producing constant zerglings rallied to your roaches.
The first thing you MUST do is scout with a zergling before engaging.

[image loading]

Determine where his bunkers are placed, where his units are, where there are gaps to run through, etc. Each time will be different.

[image loading]

In this example, I see a sturdy marine/tank/bunker defense. The bunker is placed close to the depot on the left, so I decide to lead with banelings through that depot and then flood in with the roaches and lings.

As a general rule if they've taken their expansion, aim the banelings into either groups of clumped up units, clumps of SCVs either repairing or attacking, or even through bunkers themselves while your roaches absorb damage and your lings surround units. If he hasn't taken his expansion and he's walled the top with a depot/bunkers, you can either break through the depot with the banelings and then break the bunker with the roaches OR break the depot with the roaches and the bunkers with the banelings. The latter requires a bit more micro and is a bit harder to do, but can be very successful.

The End Result

[image loading]


Transition:

+ Show Spoiler +
Because you commit so much to this attack, your best option if your first push doesn't work is to essentially commit to an all-in by continuously stream lings off your 2 hatcheries with 2 queens, then morphing as many banelings as your one gas geyser allows. Then proceed to constantly ling/baneling bust until you win or lose like in the games against Smaug and OscarMike: http://drop.sc/98510, http://drop.sc/98446.

IF your opponent somehow holds your early push and gets 2-3 tanks out, you're sort of forced to start pumping drones off 2 bases and 2 queens. He probably hasn't expanded, which means theoretically you could transition into a macro game from here (it'll be in very rare circumstances and honestly you're probably behind).


Terran Responses:

+ Show Spoiler +
This build is incredibly difficult for terran to stop, even if they know it's coming. It's not impossible, though - here are a few examples of some top level terran players putting me in my place.

Game 1: Tang vs SiN
SiN is a top-master/GM Terran on the NA server. His build utilized bunkers, banshees, and mass hellions to defend his expansion.
http://drop.sc/98443

Game 2: Tang vs YoonYJ
This Korean pro made me look silly. He took a very fast 3rd base, and with solid defense and micro he held the attacks and counter attacked me later with marines and marauders.
http://drop.sc/98445


Feedback Poll:

+ Show Spoiler +

Poll: All Players should incorporate well-planned, all-in aggressive builds.

Yes, it's important to experiment to add variety and the element of unpredictability (115)
 
83%

Yes/No. This shouldn't be the focus of anyone's play, but it's fun to cheese when you're on tilt (10)
 
7%

No, Macro-Style is popular because it's the best and our practice time should be committed to macro (8)
 
6%

No, this type of attack is a pure gamble that requires no skill. Learn2Macro (5)
 
4%

138 total votes

Your vote: All Players should incorporate well-planned, all-in aggressive builds.

(Vote): Yes, it's important to experiment to add variety and the element of unpredictability
(Vote): No, this type of attack is a pure gamble that requires no skill. Learn2Macro
(Vote): No, Macro-Style is popular because it's the best and our practice time should be committed to macro
(Vote): Yes/No. This shouldn't be the focus of anyone's play, but it's fun to cheese when you're on tilt




Please Vote on Reddit:

+ Show Spoiler +
Everyone down votes real content on Reddit, especially if it deviates from standard strategies. Please vote UP if you found this thread helpful and DOWN if you don't. http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/oy1dg/tangstarcrafts_guide_to_the_zvt_roachlingbaneling/


Discussion Questions:

+ Show Spoiler +
1) How can terran players scout this? / What terran responses are strongest to this style?

2) What are the pros and cons to this build as opposed to the other variations seen in GSL?

3) When is the best time to use this style? (ie. on ladder, once in a BO5, every game, once you scout an expansion)

4) What types of skills do you practice when you do a build like this as opposed to a macro build?


I'm grateful for the time you've taken to read, ask questions, and/or contribute to this thread.

-Tang

Courtesy of www.TangStarcraft.com
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
FenneK
Profile Joined November 2010
France1231 Posts
January 26 2012 20:22 GMT
#2
This is great to have, thanks!
good luck have batman
DYEAlabaster
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Canada1009 Posts
January 26 2012 20:36 GMT
#3
Good guide to the all-in variant of a very diverse build. I was hoping that someone would draw the line between the different versions of this aggro-style, and you have done a marvellous job of out-lining this particular style
NoisyNinja
Profile Joined February 2011
United States991 Posts
January 26 2012 20:41 GMT
#4
Good guide. If only you played random
Sox
Profile Joined September 2010
United States13 Posts
January 26 2012 21:01 GMT
#5
I'm a high masters, ~850, and I use this build or a variation thereof quite frequently. I can safely say that if you scout early siege tank and your opponent is doing a marine/tank style with only a few reactor hellions, you should just expand and get ready to crush in the incoming tank/marine push with ling/bling/roach. Attacking into siege tanks is so cost inefficient for zerg that if you do not break into the main you might be behind and lose to a subsequent counterattack.
Mahtasooma
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany475 Posts
January 26 2012 21:04 GMT
#6

It's great, but I experience a lot of terran having siege up around that time, totally shutting that down.

Even worse, siege might finish in the midst of the battle.

For me, the two follow ups to your basic ZvT is either:

1. He was very greedy and looses to more rallied stuff
2. He prepared, so I camp his expo until he can clear my stuff up (requiring siege anyway) while I take a third which I can instantly saturate.
http://twitch.tv/mahtasooma
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
January 26 2012 21:05 GMT
#7
On January 27 2012 06:04 Morghaine wrote:

It's great, but I experience a lot of terran having siege up around that time, totally shutting that down.

Even worse, siege might finish in the midst of the battle.

For me, the two follow ups to your basic ZvT is either:

1. He was very greedy and looses to more rallied stuff
2. He prepared, so I camp his expo until he can clear my stuff up (requiring siege anyway) while I take a third which I can instantly saturate.

Usually if you're hitting at the 8:20 mark they won't have seige done.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
January 26 2012 21:06 GMT
#8
On January 27 2012 06:01 Sox wrote:
I'm a high masters, ~850, and I use this build or a variation thereof quite frequently. I can safely say that if you scout early siege tank and your opponent is doing a marine/tank style with only a few reactor hellions, you should just expand and get ready to crush in the incoming tank/marine push with ling/bling/roach. Attacking into siege tanks is so cost inefficient for zerg that if you do not break into the main you might be behind and lose to a subsequent counterattack.

Yeah you would definitely have to break in, otherwise you're way behind. But at 8:20 it's very very likely that you will break in.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
TheSubtleArt
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada2527 Posts
January 26 2012 21:18 GMT
#9
Nice guide. However, roach / ling / bane all ins are very popular among top Korean Zergs, so it would have been nice if you had some content outlining how the pros do it and perhaps a comparison between this particular build and other variations of it. Wishing no offence to you, I'd rather read a thread that details how DongRaeGu does a roach / ling all in opposed to how Tang does it ;p
Dodge arrows
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
January 26 2012 21:24 GMT
#10
On January 27 2012 06:18 TheSubtleArt wrote:
Nice guide. However, roach / ling / bane all ins are very popular among top Korean Zergs, so it would have been nice if you had some content outlining how the pros do it and perhaps a comparison between this particular build and other variations of it. Wishing no offence to you, I'd rather read a thread that details how DongRaeGu does a roach / ling all in opposed to how Tang does it ;p

Oh definitely, like I mentioned once some players include links of this or similar styles from DRG/Nestea/Julyzerg I'll include them.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
Mahtasooma
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany475 Posts
January 26 2012 21:47 GMT
#11
On January 27 2012 06:05 TangSC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 27 2012 06:04 Morghaine wrote:

It's great, but I experience a lot of terran having siege up around that time, totally shutting that down.

Even worse, siege might finish in the midst of the battle.

For me, the two follow ups to your basic ZvT is either:

1. He was very greedy and looses to more rallied stuff
2. He prepared, so I camp his expo until he can clear my stuff up (requiring siege anyway) while I take a third which I can instantly saturate.

Usually if you're hitting at the 8:20 mark they won't have seige done.


yes but if they have siege up by 8:45 I'm even more screwed potentially.
http://twitch.tv/mahtasooma
Grohg
Profile Joined March 2011
United States243 Posts
January 26 2012 22:09 GMT
#12
On January 27 2012 06:47 Morghaine wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 27 2012 06:05 TangSC wrote:
On January 27 2012 06:04 Morghaine wrote:

It's great, but I experience a lot of terran having siege up around that time, totally shutting that down.

Even worse, siege might finish in the midst of the battle.

For me, the two follow ups to your basic ZvT is either:

1. He was very greedy and looses to more rallied stuff
2. He prepared, so I camp his expo until he can clear my stuff up (requiring siege anyway) while I take a third which I can instantly saturate.

Usually if you're hitting at the 8:20 mark they won't have seige done.


yes but if they have siege up by 8:45 I'm even more screwed potentially.



If you attack at 8:20, siege doesn't matter. If the games ends right there I don't understand how 8:45 siege makes any difference. If you attack into them and for some reason they do have siege researched already, saturate and take another base. You have a force that can defend against anything he might throw at you for at least another minute or two. Just make sure you scout any push he might make and engage him as far up the map as you can and force a siege. You'll be able to get more units out if you slow his push down. Otherwise drone/tech up and try to catch up (basically you have to get greedy at this point).
You can't spell slaughter without laughter.
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
January 26 2012 23:15 GMT
#13
On January 27 2012 07:09 Grohg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 27 2012 06:47 Morghaine wrote:
On January 27 2012 06:05 TangSC wrote:
On January 27 2012 06:04 Morghaine wrote:

It's great, but I experience a lot of terran having siege up around that time, totally shutting that down.

Even worse, siege might finish in the midst of the battle.

For me, the two follow ups to your basic ZvT is either:

1. He was very greedy and looses to more rallied stuff
2. He prepared, so I camp his expo until he can clear my stuff up (requiring siege anyway) while I take a third which I can instantly saturate.

Usually if you're hitting at the 8:20 mark they won't have seige done.


yes but if they have siege up by 8:45 I'm even more screwed potentially.



If you attack at 8:20, siege doesn't matter. If the games ends right there I don't understand how 8:45 siege makes any difference. If you attack into them and for some reason they do have siege researched already, saturate and take another base. You have a force that can defend against anything he might throw at you for at least another minute or two. Just make sure you scout any push he might make and engage him as far up the map as you can and force a siege. You'll be able to get more units out if you slow his push down. Otherwise drone/tech up and try to catch up (basically you have to get greedy at this point).


Yes in strange circumstances like if the terran player doesn't build a 2nd command center and just plays 1base defensive marine/siege tank/bunker, you could consider not engaging and just keeping your roach/ling/bane army ready if he pushes while you up at home.

Then you just have to gauge whether he is eventually going to expand or just plans to 1base all-in. If he 1-base all-ins, you can just spam units as soon as you see him push out. If he expands, you can either try to mass up and bust it or transition into a macro game with upgrades/tech/3rd.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
DarKFoRcE
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Germany1215 Posts
January 26 2012 23:41 GMT
#14
i like this allin better than than your other one (yea yea i know the other one is not as allin ~~). i think under hard counters you should be listing builds that get banshees before CC, because the first banshee should be out a bit before you move out, and when terran sees you moving out with his hellions, he just starts shooting your slowly crawling roaches with his banshee, and you will take quite some losses before you have gotten over the map. also a second banshee pops soon after and will make the attack even less good.

but i dont only want to hate on this one, as i think its definitely an improvement over the other one, because chances of dealing alot of damage or outright winning seem better with the banelings, but its weak against about the same things.
Follow me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/#!/PinDarKFoRcE
serum321
Profile Joined January 2012
United States606 Posts
January 26 2012 23:53 GMT
#15
Long time lurker, first time poster.

Maybe there is just more one base play in silver league, but it is not at all uncommon for terrans I go up against to have seige by 8:20, by 8:45 they could have 3 or 4 tanks w/ seige.

But with that said I've seen this type of push twice on ladder; once it was crushed (probably due to it just not being performed properly) and the other time it absolutely crushed me, I could believe the amount of stuff he had at that time and the hatch first tricked me into thinking I was much safer than I was. So when executed probably this build is nasty.
TheTurk
Profile Joined January 2011
United States732 Posts
January 27 2012 00:33 GMT
#16
This shit so good.
Thanks so much Tang.
I <3 all your guides. ^_^
Starcraft is a lifestyle.
Gen_Syntax
Profile Joined September 2011
25 Posts
January 27 2012 00:41 GMT
#17
Of all your guides...I like this one the most. I've seen a lot of pros do roach ling bling bust and I was looking of a guide, thanks...
mrGRAPE
Profile Joined November 2011
Singapore293 Posts
January 27 2012 01:04 GMT
#18
Hey Tang,

This guide seems a lot more well written and looks like it had more potential to do massive damage with banelings added into the mix.

I'll definitely give this a try tonight and see if I can get a few good replays up to post here.
Starcraft 2 and eSports enthusiast. https://twitter.com/#!/mrGRAPETV | http://mrgrapetv.wordpress.com/
DarKFoRcE
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Germany1215 Posts
January 27 2012 04:25 GMT
#19
Oh, what i wnated to know, why do you prefer this variation over the one was used in GSL quite a few times? (i havent tried around much with it personally, so im not sure what pros/cons are) that gets a good bit more drones, 2nd gas and aims for a bigger, later attack with more eco to back it up.
Follow me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/#!/PinDarKFoRcE
TyrantPotato
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Australia1541 Posts
January 27 2012 04:29 GMT
#20
the fact that you called this an all-in and not an ECO Aggression build wins you many cookies haha.

cant really criticize the build because it has all the weaknesses of other all ins which is if scouted and accounted for the damage it can do is mitigated quite largely.

good guide nevertheless
Forever ZeNEX.
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