Once again, I'd like to thank you all very much for viewing my newest ZvT article. I've written a few articles recently in which I analyze some ways of opening aggressively against Terran, while still transitioning into standard macro play. This will be my last ZvT guide for quite a while, and you can expect to see some new guides on ZvP and ZvZ in the near future.
If you've read my previous guides, you're likely aware that if you combine very precise early game economy management with solid scouting, you can punish your opponent with very strong timing attacks while droning to secure an economic advantage. Today will be a little different - I'm going to describe an even MORE aggressive style. We're going to look at the following timing attack:
8 Roaches, 6-8 Banelings, and 30 Zerglings by 8:20
Now I know what you might be thinking..."How the heck can you get that strong of a push at 8:20 without being all-in?" Well, surprise surprise, this IS an all-in build - You will not go beyond 22 drones with this attack. There will be some exceptions where you do the push and decide to drone afterwards, but for the most part this push is designed to outright win the game.
I know that many players frown at all-in aggressive builds, but it is my opinion that all serious SC2 gamers should experiment and perfect a few all-in timing attacks for two reasons: it does improve certain skill sets and it does add an element of unpredictability to your play. Should you make it your exclusive style of play? Of course not, but don't ignore it either.
So I've provided a stream video, some replays, and build order analysis to take you step by step through the process of planning a precise all-in build and executing the attack optimally. I guarantee there will be at least one person to say "This build is cheese, you shouldn't all in, etc" in the comments, but I have seen professional Korean zerg players execute builds like this in the GSL and I encourage you all to keep an open mind to new strategies that deviate from what is considered "Standard". There is more than one way to play successful StarCraft, and you're putting yourself at a disadvantage if you limit your arsenal of strategies to exclusively macro builds.
Opening Step 1: "Scouting and Planning" You want to keep very precise timings on your buildings, overlords, and drones to ensure maximized mineral income. It's also very important to scout to determine whether terran is planning to pressure you so you can plan the response to hold that pressure without losing drones.
15Hatch (Drone Scout) 15Gas 15Pool 17Overlord When Pool Finishes, you should have already determined your opponent's opening build. Against any build with gas, you're going to skip spine crawler defense and go right into 2-4 Lings and 2 Queens. The only time you will build spines is if your opponent is putting on 2Barracks pressure. (Builds like 1Barracks "Light" marine/scv pressure, reaper pressure, hellion openings, etc. can be shut down with proper queen/ling/drone micro until roaches are out. However, if your opponent has proxied his barracks or both his barracks finish by 3:00 (11/11 2Rax) then you will immediately need 2 spines at your expansion. NOTE: If you struggle with early pressure because your drone micro is weak OR if you for some reason don't get the scouting information, it's not the end of the world to build one spine to be safe.
Opening Step 2: "Responding" You should now have an idea of what your opponent is doing and planned your response accordingly. You should be practicing thin early game defenses while sticking to the follow steps. There are also a few little tricks to make defense easier (against hellions, for example).
17 Queenx2, 21 Lingx2-4 *Sometimes you can get away with producing 0 or 2 lings but for the majority of games, you'll want 4 to kill scouting SCVs, spot at the front of terran ramp, and hold the xel-naga towers. 23-28 Drones 28 Roach Warren, replace drone to 28 NOTE: Between 5:30-6:20 Reactor Hellions are a threat. Since your roaches don't spawn until 6:20 and you haven't built lings or spines, you could potentially be in a hazardous situation to even 2 hellions. It is never a bad idea, when you scout the hellions on the way, to wall your expansion ramp with your 2 queens and bring any drones from your expansion to your main. You will lose some mining time and you will miss a bit of larva-inject time, but no drones/queens will die before your roaches are out and that's the most important thing.
Opening Step 3: "Preparing the Push" At this point, you've scouted your opponent's opening, you've easily defended all early pressure and you've kept all your build order steps the same so your roach warren is already on the way. Everything is in place for you to execute a well-timed all-in, you just need to start the upgrades and build the units.
28 Zergling Speed (Notice it's quite delayed) 28 Overlordsx2 28-44 Roachesx8 44 Baneling Nest (replace drone) 44 Overlords x2 44-60 Mass Lings rallied to roaches Morph as many banes as you can in front of the terran base at 8:00 8:20 - 8Roaches, 6-8 Banelings, and 30+ Lings
Execution Part 1: Disguise your Attack Whenever you're executing a build like this, you want to make it as much of a surprise as possible for your opponent. Here are a few ways to deny his scouting:
1) Kill his scouting SCVs with zerglings/Queens. - Use your opening zerglings to make sure he doesn't sneak an SCV into your main. Don't let this happen to you:
2) Build your warren in your main and your baneling nest at your expansion, he's less likely to scout both.
3) Don't show him all 8 roaches. If he's pressuring with hellions, don't reveal all of your roaches - just use 3-4 to push the hellions back to his base and THEN move out with your roaches
4) Plan to move your roaches out so that they arrive near the terran front at 8:00 and morph the banelings right away so you can move in to attack at 8:20.
5)Don't morph banelings too close, try to morph them outside of your opponent's vision. You want to group up as close to the terran front without giving his units/buildings vision of the impending attack.
Execution Part 2: Micro your Attack The micro of this push is fairly easy, but you do have that constant element of keeping up with larva injects and producing constant zerglings rallied to your roaches. The first thing you MUST do is scout with a zergling before engaging.
Determine where his bunkers are placed, where his units are, where there are gaps to run through, etc. Each time will be different.
In this example, I see a sturdy marine/tank/bunker defense. The bunker is placed close to the depot on the left, so I decide to lead with banelings through that depot and then flood in with the roaches and lings.
As a general rule if they've taken their expansion, aim the banelings into either groups of clumped up units, clumps of SCVs either repairing or attacking, or even through bunkers themselves while your roaches absorb damage and your lings surround units. If he hasn't taken his expansion and he's walled the top with a depot/bunkers, you can either break through the depot with the banelings and then break the bunker with the roaches OR break the depot with the roaches and the bunkers with the banelings. The latter requires a bit more micro and is a bit harder to do, but can be very successful.
Because you commit so much to this attack, your best option if your first push doesn't work is to essentially commit to an all-in by continuously stream lings off your 2 hatcheries with 2 queens, then morphing as many banelings as your one gas geyser allows. Then proceed to constantly ling/baneling bust until you win or lose like in the games against Smaug and OscarMike: http://drop.sc/98510,http://drop.sc/98446.
IF your opponent somehow holds your early push and gets 2-3 tanks out, you're sort of forced to start pumping drones off 2 bases and 2 queens. He probably hasn't expanded, which means theoretically you could transition into a macro game from here (it'll be in very rare circumstances and honestly you're probably behind).
This build is incredibly difficult for terran to stop, even if they know it's coming. It's not impossible, though - here are a few examples of some top level terran players putting me in my place.
Game 1: Tang vs SiN SiN is a top-master/GM Terran on the NA server. His build utilized bunkers, banshees, and mass hellions to defend his expansion. http://drop.sc/98443
Game 2: Tang vs YoonYJ This Korean pro made me look silly. He took a very fast 3rd base, and with solid defense and micro he held the attacks and counter attacked me later with marines and marauders. http://drop.sc/98445
Poll: All Players should incorporate well-planned, all-in aggressive builds.
Yes, it's important to experiment to add variety and the element of unpredictability (115)
83%
Yes/No. This shouldn't be the focus of anyone's play, but it's fun to cheese when you're on tilt (10)
7%
No, Macro-Style is popular because it's the best and our practice time should be committed to macro (8)
6%
No, this type of attack is a pure gamble that requires no skill. Learn2Macro (5)
4%
138 total votes
Your vote: All Players should incorporate well-planned, all-in aggressive builds.
(Vote): Yes, it's important to experiment to add variety and the element of unpredictability (Vote): No, this type of attack is a pure gamble that requires no skill. Learn2Macro (Vote): No, Macro-Style is popular because it's the best and our practice time should be committed to macro (Vote): Yes/No. This shouldn't be the focus of anyone's play, but it's fun to cheese when you're on tilt
Good guide to the all-in variant of a very diverse build. I was hoping that someone would draw the line between the different versions of this aggro-style, and you have done a marvellous job of out-lining this particular style
I'm a high masters, ~850, and I use this build or a variation thereof quite frequently. I can safely say that if you scout early siege tank and your opponent is doing a marine/tank style with only a few reactor hellions, you should just expand and get ready to crush in the incoming tank/marine push with ling/bling/roach. Attacking into siege tanks is so cost inefficient for zerg that if you do not break into the main you might be behind and lose to a subsequent counterattack.
It's great, but I experience a lot of terran having siege up around that time, totally shutting that down.
Even worse, siege might finish in the midst of the battle.
For me, the two follow ups to your basic ZvT is either:
1. He was very greedy and looses to more rallied stuff 2. He prepared, so I camp his expo until he can clear my stuff up (requiring siege anyway) while I take a third which I can instantly saturate.
It's great, but I experience a lot of terran having siege up around that time, totally shutting that down.
Even worse, siege might finish in the midst of the battle.
For me, the two follow ups to your basic ZvT is either:
1. He was very greedy and looses to more rallied stuff 2. He prepared, so I camp his expo until he can clear my stuff up (requiring siege anyway) while I take a third which I can instantly saturate.
Usually if you're hitting at the 8:20 mark they won't have seige done.
On January 27 2012 06:01 Sox wrote: I'm a high masters, ~850, and I use this build or a variation thereof quite frequently. I can safely say that if you scout early siege tank and your opponent is doing a marine/tank style with only a few reactor hellions, you should just expand and get ready to crush in the incoming tank/marine push with ling/bling/roach. Attacking into siege tanks is so cost inefficient for zerg that if you do not break into the main you might be behind and lose to a subsequent counterattack.
Yeah you would definitely have to break in, otherwise you're way behind. But at 8:20 it's very very likely that you will break in.
Nice guide. However, roach / ling / bane all ins are very popular among top Korean Zergs, so it would have been nice if you had some content outlining how the pros do it and perhaps a comparison between this particular build and other variations of it. Wishing no offence to you, I'd rather read a thread that details how DongRaeGu does a roach / ling all in opposed to how Tang does it ;p
On January 27 2012 06:18 TheSubtleArt wrote: Nice guide. However, roach / ling / bane all ins are very popular among top Korean Zergs, so it would have been nice if you had some content outlining how the pros do it and perhaps a comparison between this particular build and other variations of it. Wishing no offence to you, I'd rather read a thread that details how DongRaeGu does a roach / ling all in opposed to how Tang does it ;p
Oh definitely, like I mentioned once some players include links of this or similar styles from DRG/Nestea/Julyzerg I'll include them.
It's great, but I experience a lot of terran having siege up around that time, totally shutting that down.
Even worse, siege might finish in the midst of the battle.
For me, the two follow ups to your basic ZvT is either:
1. He was very greedy and looses to more rallied stuff 2. He prepared, so I camp his expo until he can clear my stuff up (requiring siege anyway) while I take a third which I can instantly saturate.
Usually if you're hitting at the 8:20 mark they won't have seige done.
yes but if they have siege up by 8:45 I'm even more screwed potentially.
It's great, but I experience a lot of terran having siege up around that time, totally shutting that down.
Even worse, siege might finish in the midst of the battle.
For me, the two follow ups to your basic ZvT is either:
1. He was very greedy and looses to more rallied stuff 2. He prepared, so I camp his expo until he can clear my stuff up (requiring siege anyway) while I take a third which I can instantly saturate.
Usually if you're hitting at the 8:20 mark they won't have seige done.
yes but if they have siege up by 8:45 I'm even more screwed potentially.
If you attack at 8:20, siege doesn't matter. If the games ends right there I don't understand how 8:45 siege makes any difference. If you attack into them and for some reason they do have siege researched already, saturate and take another base. You have a force that can defend against anything he might throw at you for at least another minute or two. Just make sure you scout any push he might make and engage him as far up the map as you can and force a siege. You'll be able to get more units out if you slow his push down. Otherwise drone/tech up and try to catch up (basically you have to get greedy at this point).
It's great, but I experience a lot of terran having siege up around that time, totally shutting that down.
Even worse, siege might finish in the midst of the battle.
For me, the two follow ups to your basic ZvT is either:
1. He was very greedy and looses to more rallied stuff 2. He prepared, so I camp his expo until he can clear my stuff up (requiring siege anyway) while I take a third which I can instantly saturate.
Usually if you're hitting at the 8:20 mark they won't have seige done.
yes but if they have siege up by 8:45 I'm even more screwed potentially.
If you attack at 8:20, siege doesn't matter. If the games ends right there I don't understand how 8:45 siege makes any difference. If you attack into them and for some reason they do have siege researched already, saturate and take another base. You have a force that can defend against anything he might throw at you for at least another minute or two. Just make sure you scout any push he might make and engage him as far up the map as you can and force a siege. You'll be able to get more units out if you slow his push down. Otherwise drone/tech up and try to catch up (basically you have to get greedy at this point).
Yes in strange circumstances like if the terran player doesn't build a 2nd command center and just plays 1base defensive marine/siege tank/bunker, you could consider not engaging and just keeping your roach/ling/bane army ready if he pushes while you up at home.
Then you just have to gauge whether he is eventually going to expand or just plans to 1base all-in. If he 1-base all-ins, you can just spam units as soon as you see him push out. If he expands, you can either try to mass up and bust it or transition into a macro game with upgrades/tech/3rd.
i like this allin better than than your other one (yea yea i know the other one is not as allin ~~). i think under hard counters you should be listing builds that get banshees before CC, because the first banshee should be out a bit before you move out, and when terran sees you moving out with his hellions, he just starts shooting your slowly crawling roaches with his banshee, and you will take quite some losses before you have gotten over the map. also a second banshee pops soon after and will make the attack even less good.
but i dont only want to hate on this one, as i think its definitely an improvement over the other one, because chances of dealing alot of damage or outright winning seem better with the banelings, but its weak against about the same things.
Maybe there is just more one base play in silver league, but it is not at all uncommon for terrans I go up against to have seige by 8:20, by 8:45 they could have 3 or 4 tanks w/ seige.
But with that said I've seen this type of push twice on ladder; once it was crushed (probably due to it just not being performed properly) and the other time it absolutely crushed me, I could believe the amount of stuff he had at that time and the hatch first tricked me into thinking I was much safer than I was. So when executed probably this build is nasty.
Oh, what i wnated to know, why do you prefer this variation over the one was used in GSL quite a few times? (i havent tried around much with it personally, so im not sure what pros/cons are) that gets a good bit more drones, 2nd gas and aims for a bigger, later attack with more eco to back it up.
the fact that you called this an all-in and not an ECO Aggression build wins you many cookies haha.
cant really criticize the build because it has all the weaknesses of other all ins which is if scouted and accounted for the damage it can do is mitigated quite largely.
It's possible, with a little cutting corners when it comes to scouting, to do a build that is safe against standard play, comes at the exact same time and with the exact same units as this one but with 10-12 more drones. I'll leave it to you guys to figure out how
On January 27 2012 18:16 Usyless wrote: It's possible, with a little cutting corners when it comes to scouting, to do a build that is safe against standard play, comes at the exact same time and with the exact same units as this one but with 10-12 more drones. I'll leave it to you guys to figure out how
This is a really good build and it's incredibly difficult to hold as terran. I open reactor hellion expand every single time against zerg. Do you think it is possible to hold it ? I can't scout the roach warren because the zergs initial lings will kill my scv. After my scout dies I have two options: 1. Blindly prepare for this, build a bunker at my ramp, keep the CC inbase build a tech lab on the factory, get tanks and siege ASAP and build marauders (?) aswell. In this case I can take my natural when siege is ready. If he does the roach ling bling allin, I can have siege ready and not die. But if not and he just builds a couple speedlings than he can take map control and I loose all the advantages the hellion opener gives me. 2. Continue making hellions till about 4-6 then get tanks and siege mode. This will die to roach ling bling almost 100% but if they don't do it I can deny 3rd and keep the zerg in base till mutas are out. Also hellion opener can easily die to a simple roach ling allin on maps where the rush distance is not very long (close air meta, close air shattered temple). Basically I have a feeling that it's not safe to take the natural until siege mode in any case with reactor hellion opener against zerg. what are your thoughts ?
On January 27 2012 18:34 djtopa wrote: This is a really good build and it's incredibly difficult to hold as terran. I open reactor hellion expand every single time against zerg. Do you think it is possible to hold it ? I can't scout the roach warren because the zergs initial lings will kill my scv. After my scout dies I have two options: 1. Blindly prepare for this, build a bunker at my ramp, keep the CC inbase build a tech lab on the factory, get tanks and siege ASAP and build marauders (?) aswell. In this case I can take my natural when siege is ready. If he does the roach ling bling allin, I can have siege ready and not die. But if not and he just builds a couple speedlings than he can take map control and I loose all the advantages the hellion opener gives me. 2. Continue making hellions till about 4-6 then get tanks and siege mode. This will die to roach ling bling almost 100% but if they don't do it I can deny 3rd and keep the zerg in base till mutas are out. Also hellion opener can easily die to a simple roach ling allin on maps where the rush distance is not very long (close air meta, close air shattered temple). Basically I have a feeling that it's not safe to take the natural until siege mode in any case with reactor hellion opener against zerg. what are your thoughts ?
The trick, as with all all ins, is scouting it. I think you should stil float your cc down, and as soon as you see a roach warren/roaches, throw down a bunker. Then if you scout anything else suspicious with your hellions, throw down another 1-2, and then you've held.
This push is significantly weaker than the popular roach/baneling attack that has been used often in GSL, as Darkforce indicated. That one has a lot more drones and hits only 40 seconds later, while having a way better ability to transition into a 3rd base and mutalisks. The higher drone count also makes it easier to continue applying a little pressure as a follow up, too. The other build is not really so all-in and is fairly safe against something like cloaked banshees or mech builds that have tanks (which hold the push quite well). Also, the more common roach/baneling attack allows for building speedlings early on to deal with hellions, rather than relying on queens and drones to hold them until roaches pop.
Why do you get 2 queens? You don't use all that larvae. It seems to me you could drop the 2nd queen for an earlier roach warren and not have as big a window where you are vulnerable to hellions. Perhaps something like:
The first Roaches are out ~5:35. The baneling nest is done ~7:30. Metabolic Boost ~8:00. I find that this is much more efficient with larvae. There is probably still some optimization left to be done, but I feel the one you have proposed is very far from optimal given your objective.
DRG has a variation of this build where you go upto around 32 drones, it's really strong. Can't remember the time it hits, but it isn't far off this one.
On January 27 2012 18:34 djtopa wrote: This is a really good build and it's incredibly difficult to hold as terran. I open reactor hellion expand every single time against zerg. Do you think it is possible to hold it ? I can't scout the roach warren because the zergs initial lings will kill my scv. After my scout dies I have two options: 1. Blindly prepare for this, build a bunker at my ramp, keep the CC inbase build a tech lab on the factory, get tanks and siege ASAP and build marauders (?) aswell. In this case I can take my natural when siege is ready. If he does the roach ling bling allin, I can have siege ready and not die. But if not and he just builds a couple speedlings than he can take map control and I loose all the advantages the hellion opener gives me. 2. Continue making hellions till about 4-6 then get tanks and siege mode. This will die to roach ling bling almost 100% but if they don't do it I can deny 3rd and keep the zerg in base till mutas are out. Also hellion opener can easily die to a simple roach ling allin on maps where the rush distance is not very long (close air meta, close air shattered temple). Basically I have a feeling that it's not safe to take the natural until siege mode in any case with reactor hellion opener against zerg. what are your thoughts ?
You'll most likely be able to scout an all in with your first 2 hellions, and if you dont, just build a bunker at your natural anyway just to be safe. Try to wall off with depots and perhaps even put a depot in front of your bunker. This will help you greatly against any all in really. You should absolutely not wait for siege mode before you move your CC out. Thats gonna set you behind quite a bit if your opponent doesnt go for an all in. I dont think this particular strategy is impossible to hold at your natural at all. You just need to place your buildings correctly and a little bit of micro.
On January 27 2012 13:25 DarKFoRcE wrote: Oh, what i wnated to know, why do you prefer this variation over the one was used in GSL quite a few times? (i havent tried around much with it personally, so im not sure what pros/cons are) that gets a good bit more drones, 2nd gas and aims for a bigger, later attack with more eco to back it up.
Like you say, there are pros and cons to both sides. This build is great because of the time it hits (8:20 is so early). If you do it later around 9min, cloak banshee and siege tanks are often out. This version is a straight-up all-in, DRG's version has more drones therefore you can transition fairly well into muta play (and, like you mention, you get a 2nd gas and more banelings)
On January 27 2012 08:41 DarKFoRcE wrote: i like this allin better than than your other one (yea yea i know the other one is not as allin ~~). i think under hard counters you should be listing builds that get banshees before CC, because the first banshee should be out a bit before you move out, and when terran sees you moving out with his hellions, he just starts shooting your slowly crawling roaches with his banshee, and you will take quite some losses before you have gotten over the map. also a second banshee pops soon after and will make the attack even less good.
but i dont only want to hate on this one, as i think its definitely an improvement over the other one, because chances of dealing alot of damage or outright winning seem better with the banelings, but its weak against about the same things.
Well it depends on the build. If they do a very strong 1/1/1 all in with banshees, you're in dire straights - just like you mention, the banshees start attacking your roaches / banes while they're walking over or morphing in. If they go 2port banshee though, you can almost always break in and wreck their mineral line without the need for banelings. I think the biggest hard-counter is the 1/1/1 All-In (defensively at first, with cloak)
Thanks for the guide prof tang. But is it just me but most of the build order is essentially your roachling "all in or is it" build except for a 15 hatch instead of 14 and a baneling nest instead of transitioning?
On January 28 2012 02:16 jliu wrote: Thanks for the guide prof tang. But is it just me but most of the build order is essentially your roachling "all in or is it" build except for a 15 hatch instead of 14 and a baneling nest instead of transitioning?
Hey jliu, the build is VERY similar in the opening stages. It's the execution and transition that differs (as well as the overall goal). I wanted to do a guide that is definitively all-in, designed specifically to end the game outright.
On January 27 2012 08:41 DarKFoRcE wrote: i like this allin better than than your other one (yea yea i know the other one is not as allin ~~). i think under hard counters you should be listing builds that get banshees before CC, because the first banshee should be out a bit before you move out, and when terran sees you moving out with his hellions, he just starts shooting your slowly crawling roaches with his banshee, and you will take quite some losses before you have gotten over the map. also a second banshee pops soon after and will make the attack even less good.
but i dont only want to hate on this one, as i think its definitely an improvement over the other one, because chances of dealing alot of damage or outright winning seem better with the banelings, but its weak against about the same things.
Well it depends on the build. If they do a very strong 1/1/1 all in with banshees, you're in dire straights - just like you mention, the banshees start attacking your roaches / banes while they're walking over or morphing in. If they go 2port banshee though, you can almost always break in and wreck their mineral line without the need for banelings. I think the biggest hard-counter is the 1/1/1 All-In (defensively at first, with cloak)
why does 1/1/1 have to be allin? i have seen people go reactor hellion into 1 banshee and then CC quite a few times. of course terran sacs some eco for the early banshee, but they can also put more pressure, as zergs often go very light on early defenses these days.
of course 1/1/1 allin owns the build just as bad. also, im pretty sure that 2 port banshee does not have banshee that much later compared to 1-1-1. i guess it also depends on the size of the map, coz on maps like TDA terminus antiga(cross only) and such, your units really take quite some time to walk over the map, giving terran ample time to prepare (yea yea i know u send out few roaches first, but once they are a bit out, terran can drive around them and see whether there is more stuff coming behind, you see koreans do that all the time).
Like your guides dude. Thanks TangSC. It is really fun to just build units as an opener instead of marco kinging and defending all the time (not that I have the best drone and ling micro anyways... -_-!!). Changes how I play my solos and team games quite a bit.
On January 28 2012 02:31 iGn1t3 wrote: Like your guides dude. Thanks TangSC. It is really fun to just build units as an opener instead of marco kinging and defending all the time (not that I have the best drone and ling micro anyways... -_-!!). Changes how I play my solos and team games quite a bit.
Glad to hear it iGn ^^ It's important to have aggressive responses and macro responses as a Zerg player. Be sure to upload a few replays if you use this style!
Lol another cheese/all in by tang. However ts a great guide (and im terran). I saw this on the ladder a while back (high dia) and won purely becuase i was marauder hellion all inning already. I dont think idve held at all if idve macrod.
Thanks i love your strategies. I would like to thank you for the time in putting it down so i dont have to be solely a drone all day til the last minute zerg.
I have to say that i prefer the drg version, (don't make roaches til 44 supply, along with a second gas) for a larger push, specifically with allowing for more games. This version can be seen blizzard cup final game 1 (along with another game i believe). The drg version has a lot more chance of having siege done, but also is bigger push.
On January 28 2012 08:08 Moosegills wrote: I have to say that i prefer the drg version, (don't make roaches til 44 supply, along with a second gas) for a larger push, specifically with allowing for more games. This version can be seen blizzard cup final game 1 (along with another game i believe). The drg version has a lot more chance of having siege done, but also is bigger push.
I really like the DRG version, use it now and then.
The thing that's great about this play is that it is a perfect response to all the 3 cc plays that Terran is doing these days. Playing a macro game against such a build is complete hell, so us zergs have a duty to keep Terrans honest by frequently mixing in busts. Terrans have no right to complain about cheese, because heavy macro plays are equally as cheesy in my opinion.
On January 28 2012 22:46 deadjawa wrote: The thing that's great about this play is that it is a perfect response to all the 3 cc plays that Terran is doing these days. Playing a macro game against such a build is complete hell, so us zergs have a duty to keep Terrans honest by frequently mixing in busts. Terrans have no right to complain about cheese, because heavy macro plays are equally as cheesy in my opinion.
allins are good but lets not kid ourselves and call this a response to 3 cc... because its blind oo~
Haven't actually been able to test this on ladder these couple of days... seems like there aren't as much Terrans playing in Gold/Platinum at this time of the day.
On January 28 2012 22:46 deadjawa wrote: The thing that's great about this play is that it is a perfect response to all the 3 cc plays that Terran is doing these days. Playing a macro game against such a build is complete hell, so us zergs have a duty to keep Terrans honest by frequently mixing in busts. Terrans have no right to complain about cheese, because heavy macro plays are equally as cheesy in my opinion.
allins are good but lets not kid ourselves and call this a response to 3 cc... because its blind oo~
True, but wouldn't the later roach/baneling attack ala DRG work as well? I've seen 3cc hold that before, but even then it usually puts the players at least even and keeps the terran defensive for a short while. That one can be done more reactively after an overlord scout and other ways to confirm it's 3cc.
Really depends on terran not scouting it and getting like 4 bunkers on time. Zerg usually wins if t doesn't bunk and target banes. I've held roach banes super easy and lost to them super badly. just depends if t prepares.
I like the drg version better. 15h 17p 16 gas dont take drone off gas even after speed 40 roach den 44 gas bane nest with roach is 80% complete and 3 overlords and cut drones. At this point you should have 10 lings out on the field. He made this build just for MMA and MVP's greedy style.
hmm I almost want to say I prefer a regular baneling bust over this the only downside to that is dealing with the hellions but with good control you should be able to. Reasoning: 1: Roaches are slow moving roaches across map should give terran time to build bunkers while if you suddenly stream 30 lings across terran has no time to react. 2: Roach warren costs money and roaches cost alot of supply so you spend alot of money on overlords with your all in
I'd say if you would roach bane bust you should do a later one I think the percentage of times where you just straight out win is around the same maybe a little less. It's alot safer and lets you play out alot of games where you did damage but couldnt overrun. What this build seems to me is you looked at a roach bane agression and created an all in build out of it wich is just as potent at killing as the original but doesnt have a follow up. Either way it can catch alot of people off gaurd and you should get a decent amount of build order wins against really greedy 3cc while teching or double reactor w/e.
P.S. cant quick 3 cc hold almost anything if reacted '' perfectly ''. I mean techincally you retreive back like 75% of the cost of the CC itself after dropping a mule?
On January 29 2012 04:07 Cosmology wrote: So basically you just copied jEcho's build and call it your own now?
I'm not trying to randomly flame you like you are tang, but most of the "builds" on these forums that people write guides for have been done by different players long before they ever get posted here whether or not the OP knows it or not. A roach bling bust . . . . yeah other people have probably done it, doesn't mean you have to be a dick about it. This is a pretty cool all-in to keep terrans on their toes, nice guide Tang!
On January 28 2012 22:46 deadjawa wrote: The thing that's great about this play is that it is a perfect response to all the 3 cc plays that Terran is doing these days. Playing a macro game against such a build is complete hell, so us zergs have a duty to keep Terrans honest by frequently mixing in busts. Terrans have no right to complain about cheese, because heavy macro plays are equally as cheesy in my opinion.
allins are good but lets not kid ourselves and call this a response to 3 cc... because its blind oo~
But at the same time doing a 3rd cc is blind too. Terrans just feel safe because they can make it in their main.
On January 28 2012 22:46 deadjawa wrote: The thing that's great about this play is that it is a perfect response to all the 3 cc plays that Terran is doing these days. Playing a macro game against such a build is complete hell, so us zergs have a duty to keep Terrans honest by frequently mixing in busts. Terrans have no right to complain about cheese, because heavy macro plays are equally as cheesy in my opinion.
allins are good but lets not kid ourselves and call this a response to 3 cc... because its blind oo~
But at the same time doing a 3rd cc is blind too. Terrans just feel safe because they can make it in their main.
On January 28 2012 22:46 deadjawa wrote: The thing that's great about this play is that it is a perfect response to all the 3 cc plays that Terran is doing these days. Playing a macro game against such a build is complete hell, so us zergs have a duty to keep Terrans honest by frequently mixing in busts. Terrans have no right to complain about cheese, because heavy macro plays are equally as cheesy in my opinion.
allins are good but lets not kid ourselves and call this a response to 3 cc... because its blind oo~
But at the same time doing a 3rd cc is blind too. Terrans just feel safe because they can make it in their main.
entirely missing my point but ok
I know that wasn't your point, but it is the reason there are so many roach type all ins now zvt is because every terran and their mother is going fast 3rd cc, so zergs are blindly trying to metagame.
On January 29 2012 04:07 Cosmology wrote: So basically you just copied jEcho's build and call it your own now?
Jecho's build and mine are pretty different actually, his comes much later. The unit choice is the same, but the overall style and execution is completely different.
This build saved my life!!! I was failing in mid game ZvT and i remembered seeing this thread a couple days ago and then read the build order while playing and destroyed the terran easily. Thanks dude, your builds are awesome!
On January 30 2012 01:47 DKaidon wrote: DRG just used it against MKP in KSL semis, but MKP somehow held wth loosing only ~8scvs - still gonna try this build for sure :D
apologize for the noob question guys, what time usually the siege research finish?
I encountered some terrans who get them early enough (siege expand), but do terrans really fall behind if they get early siege and zerg don't commit to all in?
Why do you have polls about aggression at the bottom of everyone of your guides? I feel like you spend just as much time justifying your aggressive play in your guides as you do explaining it.
On January 30 2012 09:45 Gen_Syntax wrote: apologize for the noob question guys, what time usually the siege research finish?
I encountered some terrans who get them early enough (siege expand), but do terrans really fall behind if they get early siege and zerg don't commit to all in?
If you see someone seige expand, just take faster bases and drone up because they won't be dropping you for a while. If they try to push with that all you do is build mass lings. The only good builds that really get tanks in time for this attack are mech.
I LOVE this build. Helps me get back at all those Terran all ins I've experienced and throws something new in my play rather then being pure macro 24/7.
On January 30 2012 09:48 ClysmiC wrote: Why do you have polls about aggression at the bottom of everyone of your guides? I feel like you spend just as much time justifying your aggressive play in your guides as you do explaining it.
It's not really to justify my play, I'm just working to squash that SC2 stereotype that Zerg can only play macro. A poll at the end of a guide is a way readers can contribute their opinion, and I definitely didn't spend as much time making the little poll as I did writing the guide lol.
On February 02 2012 05:42 fighter2_40 wrote: It seems like too many people confuse any type of ling bane roach pressure as the same build. They are different. Stop hating.
There are definitely different variations of the Roach/Ling/Bane all-in. There are 2base lair styles where you get both speed upgrades for roach/bane, and there are 1base styles where you drone a bit more so you can get 2 gas and more banelings at a later time. The one I presented here is the earliest/most all-in version.
Thanks, this is a lot earlier than I would be able to hit them with that. Really nice guide, finally a way to attack a Terran back after then nasty Hellions! ^_^
On February 16 2012 03:27 ODKStevez wrote: Thanks, this is a lot earlier than I would be able to hit them with that. Really nice guide, finally a way to attack a Terran back after then nasty Hellions! ^_^
Yeah pretty much any 26-28 warren is good for dealing with reactor hellions. Keep in mind after 6-8 roaches you don't have to execute a build this all-in, you can just do roach/ling or even 6-8 roaches alone.
Hey Tang, I was watching that DRG game and it looks like he has 2 gas and more drones. Does he have fewer lings? You cut drone production like mad, but it looks like his timing attack was very successful as well and just as many units.
On February 20 2012 04:46 aznkukuboi wrote: Hey Tang, I was watching that DRG game and it looks like he has 2 gas and more drones. Does he have fewer lings? You cut drone production like mad, but it looks like his timing attack was very successful as well and just as many units.
Why is your build "better"?
His push actually have a better economy and more lings/banelings, but it comes 20 seconds later which means some siege builds will finish. Also, roaches are out later so defense against reapers/hellions is a bit harder. Pros/Cons to both builds.
What would be a good transition if for whatever reason, your roaches didn't get out in time to defend a hellion, and you lost a few drones which delayed your push? Is it still a good idea to continue with this build? or would it be a safer bet to opt for a macro game instead.
Thats a good guide but people should practice as if you see your openent being greedy you can do it and punish him, theres no such thing as auto-win build order, imo you shouldnt start the game and be like im gonna do the thang build, because learning step by step build of some1 wont make u a better player. Don't bash me guyz, i got respect for thang , hes a good player. I'm just trying to point out the fact that if your average player , you shouldnt be looking at this build seriously because chance u execute it well are slim. Macro > micro > decision making are steps priority for learning and i think this build to be executed very well requires alot of practice and alot of skills. DRG did a similar build because he knew what was going on, watch drgs replay, he scout like a boss and he reacted with this similar build because he saw the opportunity to end the game, he didnt planned to do it so. Thats the difference DRG doesnt have a build order, he got his general guideline and adapt to what his opponent is doing.
"Side note" I'm currently high diamond and every time I face protoss they do some kind of silly all-ins, 7 gate blink stalkers and some variants and they do it blindly why ? Because Mc did it so, so they learned step by step the build and went to diamond doing that instead of doing the build as a response to X build. I crush them so badly and they rage quit, and it might be frustrating for them, but that's what happens when your a 1 build guy. My point is, i saw many post in this guide and I kinda feel like they gonna hit a wall if they open up blindly doing it w/o any real knowledge because lot of questions are really silly and comes from people with poor knowledge.
On March 08 2012 17:21 Bellazuk wrote: Thats a good guide but people should practice as if you see your openent being greedy you can do it and punish him, theres no such thing as auto-win build order, imo you shouldnt start the game and be like im gonna do the thang build, because learning step by step build of some1 wont make u a better player. Don't bash me guyz, i got respect for thang , hes a good player. I'm just trying to point out the fact that if your average player , you shouldnt be looking at this build seriously because chance u execute it well are slim. Macro > micro > decision making are steps priority for learning and i think this build to be executed very well requires alot of practice and alot of skills.
Well actually there are such things as build-order wins, but that's another topic.
I disagree pretty strongly with a couple of your points, especially when you say that following a build step by step won't make you a better player. Of course it will, you need structure to your play with clearly planned steps. A lot of players don't know how they're going to win the game, they just build and build their economy with no precise timings of when they attack.
Just because an "average player" will not execute this build optimally the first time doesn't mean they shouldn't practice it and perfect their execution of it. Your concept of "Macro > Micro > Decision making" is not at all based on statistics or evidence, these are three things that can be improved simultaneously regardless of the build you choose. You don't have to develop perfect macro before incorporating aggressive builds into your repertoire; you should be doing it from the beginning. That's the only way to learn the game-sense / decision-making of aggressive styles, by playing aggressively. If you always macro, you won't know those situations where it's correct to go for an attack like DRG's ling/bane/roach.
I am just saying that if you can get more drones before you plan for this attack, and actually drone up during the attack, you don't get too far behind in case this did not work.
I am just saying that if you can get more drones before you plan for this attack, and actually drone up during the attack, you don't get too far behind in case this did not work.
It's an all-in, you're sacrificing any kind of follow-up to maximize the chances of winning NOW.
I am just saying that if you can get more drones before you plan for this attack, and actually drone up during the attack, you don't get too far behind in case this did not work.
It's an all-in, you're sacrificing any kind of follow-up to maximize the chances of winning NOW.
I want Tang himself to say this exact statement and put that into the title rather than telling others that this strategy is not an all-in and you can have follow up in case it does not.
I am just saying that if you can get more drones before you plan for this attack, and actually drone up during the attack, you don't get too far behind in case this did not work.
It's an all-in, you're sacrificing any kind of follow-up to maximize the chances of winning NOW.
I want Tang himself to say this exact statement and put that into the title rather than telling others that this strategy is not an all-in and you can have follow up in case it does not.
Stated in the introduction of this guide:
Now I know what you might be thinking..."How the heck can you get that strong of a push at 8:20 without being all-in?" Well, surprise surprise, this IS an all-in build - You will not go beyond 22 drones with this attack. There will be some exceptions where you do the push and decide to drone afterwards, but for the most part this push is designed to outright win the game.
very usefull build to have, i use it in korhal compound (imba cliffs in mid/late -.-) and in antiga close positions! before learning this bo i just improvised it with a lot of succes..but this is probably much more optimal! thanks
Startale_Curious vs MaruPrime, GSTL match at 8:00 siege tank is done. So the timing wouldnt work if he wanted to do it so. Its not something u gamble on it I guess, u cannot be sure that at 8:20 , there will be no siege researched.
While normally I bash you for not accepting your builds being allin and always touting relentless aggression, I feel like by acknowledging it, the value of your posts is much greater. Similarly, I believe this style of attack is very strong, and while I may prefer to attempt ones like I see in the GSL, this is a good starting point. TY
On March 12 2012 15:00 Hossinaut wrote: While normally I bash you for not accepting your builds being allin and always touting relentless aggression, I feel like by acknowledging it, the value of your posts is much greater.
Well this build is undeniably all-in (you don't make more than 22 drones). Most of the other guides I've done are based on the idea that attacking can buy you time to build economy.
I really like roach/ling/bling busts. I always did the DRG one but now I will pull this out everytime i get cheesed by a terran I will follow this up the next game . Though I've done other versions and this is what I've come up with at high-mid masters.
The 28 roach warren. This is TangSC version I think and I like it really much it hits early and relatively hard though it's all-in. The 36 roach warren. This is somewhat in between Tang's and DRG and it isn't as all-in but it is to drone behind and to regain map control. The 42 roach warren. This is what DRG does, he often drones behind it and expands. Since you will have so much money because of your drones and so few larvae because of lings you will be able to expand very safely behind this.
On March 14 2012 02:21 Olsson wrote: The 42 roach warren. This is what DRG does, he often drones behind it and expands. Since you will have so much money because of your drones and so few larvae because of lings you will be able to expand very safely behind this.
Thanks for the info, Olsson. I've seen DRG and Stephano do this build, but I don't have any replay files - do you have any that I could look over? I'd like to practice the style and write a guide on it.
On March 14 2012 02:21 Olsson wrote: The 42 roach warren. This is what DRG does, he often drones behind it and expands. Since you will have so much money because of your drones and so few larvae because of lings you will be able to expand very safely behind this.
Thanks for the info, Olsson. I've seen DRG and Stephano do this build, but I don't have any replay files - do you have any that I could look over? I'd like to practice the style and write a guide on it.
Yes I think I found some on some replay sites. Will be linking the replays soon checking them out again.
Also I did see a game on Metropolis DRG vs MKP/MMA where he failed a roach ling bling bust vs mech in a tournament, maybe KSL but I can't find the replay.
On March 14 2012 02:21 Olsson wrote: The 42 roach warren. This is what DRG does, he often drones behind it and expands. Since you will have so much money because of your drones and so few larvae because of lings you will be able to expand very safely behind this.
Thanks for the info, Olsson. I've seen DRG and Stephano do this build, but I don't have any replay files - do you have any that I could look over? I'd like to practice the style and write a guide on it.
Yes I think I found some on some replay sites. Will be linking the replays soon checking them out again.
Also I did see a game on Metropolis DRG vs MKP/MMA where he failed a roach ling bling bust vs mech in a tournament, maybe KSL but I can't find the replay.
Much appreciated. I can hardly even call DRG's Roach/Ling/Bane an all-in because, like you say, he makes so many drones first and is able to transition into muta/ling with a 3rd very quickly.
On March 12 2012 15:00 Hossinaut wrote: While normally I bash you for not accepting your builds being allin and always touting relentless aggression, I feel like by acknowledging it, the value of your posts is much greater.
Well this build is undeniably all-in (you don't make more than 22 drones). Most of the other guides I've done are based on the idea that attacking can buy you time to build economy.
I feel like attacking to buy time to build economy doesn't have to be allin, however. I do the (I believe) rather common 7-13 roach rush off 2 base and ~35 drones in ZvP, and just forcing a reaction and forcing errors helps me a lot, but I play mega macro behind it, and I have a pretty good base for doing so having made so many drones anyway.
Back on the topic of this specific thread, if I want to play a more macro-centric style anyway, but want to pressure, how many drones can I get away with while hitting before siege mode is up? This may be a bad place to ask that and I see that you are looking to address this issue in a future article, but ~20 drones seems too few and and ~35 seems too many (I go 1 gas and then get another nearer the actual assault for bane count).
On March 12 2012 15:00 Hossinaut wrote: While normally I bash you for not accepting your builds being allin and always touting relentless aggression, I feel like by acknowledging it, the value of your posts is much greater.
Well this build is undeniably all-in (you don't make more than 22 drones). Most of the other guides I've done are based on the idea that attacking can buy you time to build economy.
Back on the topic of this specific thread, if I want to play a more macro-centric style anyway, but want to pressure, how many drones can I get away with while hitting before siege mode is up? This may be a bad place to ask that and I see that you are looking to address this issue in a future article, but ~20 drones seems too few and and ~35 seems too many (I go 1 gas and then get another nearer the actual assault for bane count).
I think there are two ways to make this less all-in. First, build the warren later like DRG does between 36-42 supply - this version gets early 2nd gas and more drones, allowing for earlier tech and 3rd base. Or, you could still build the warren at 28 and go 28-44 on roaches, then drone a bit, THEN switch to ling and baneling production with a second gas. This allows you to still pressure early with 8 roaches, but the roach/ling/baneling timing will come later which means siege mode could be done.
On April 02 2012 23:32 c_kAelle wrote: Stephano vs. PuMa, 2012 ASUS ROG Assembly Winter, Playoffs Semifinals Ro4, Game 3 Shakuras Plateau.
Excellent! Found the game on youtube, thanks a lot for posting this. You wouldn't happen to know where I can find the replay file would you? HD never leaves the production tab open and I have a few things to clarify. Expect a guide on this style soon :D
On April 02 2012 23:32 c_kAelle wrote: Stephano vs. PuMa, 2012 ASUS ROG Assembly Winter, Playoffs Semifinals Ro4, Game 3 Shakuras Plateau.
Excellent! Found the game on youtube, thanks a lot for posting this. You wouldn't happen to know where I can find the replay file would you? HD never leaves the production tab open and I have a few things to clarify. Expect a guide on this style soon :D
On April 02 2012 23:32 c_kAelle wrote: Stephano vs. PuMa, 2012 ASUS ROG Assembly Winter, Playoffs Semifinals Ro4, Game 3 Shakuras Plateau.
Excellent! Found the game on youtube, thanks a lot for posting this. You wouldn't happen to know where I can find the replay file would you? HD never leaves the production tab open and I have a few things to clarify. Expect a guide on this style soon :D
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/CU2QW.jpg)
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DRG doesnt have a build order, he got his general guideline and adapt to what his opponent is doing. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NoSv9.jpg)
