[G] ZvT Roach/Ling Baneling "Big Bust" - Page 2

Usyless

54 Posts

January 27 2012 09:16 GMT

#21

It's possible, with a little cutting corners when it comes to scouting, to do a build that is safe against standard play, comes at the exact same time and with the exact same units as this one but with 10-12 more drones. I'll leave it to you guys to figure out how

Host-

New Zealand459 Posts

January 27 2012 09:24 GMT

#22

On January 27 2012 18:16 Usyless wrote:
It's possible, with a little cutting corners when it comes to scouting, to do a build that is safe against standard play, comes at the exact same time and with the exact same units as this one but with 10-12 more drones. I'll leave it to you guys to figure out how

Enlighten us please

djtopa

United Kingdom59 Posts

January 27 2012 09:34 GMT

#23

This is a really good build and it's incredibly difficult to hold as terran. I open reactor hellion expand every single time against zerg. Do you think it is possible to hold it ?
I can't scout the roach warren because the zergs initial lings will kill my scv.
After my scout dies I have two options:
1. Blindly prepare for this, build a bunker at my ramp, keep the CC inbase build a tech lab on the factory, get tanks and siege ASAP and build marauders (?) aswell. In this case I can take my natural when siege is ready. If he does the roach ling bling allin, I can have siege ready and not die. But if not and he just builds a couple speedlings than he can take map control and I loose all the advantages the hellion opener gives me.
2. Continue making hellions till about 4-6 then get tanks and siege mode. This will die to roach ling bling almost 100% but if they don't do it I can deny 3rd and keep the zerg in base till mutas are out.
Also hellion opener can easily die to a simple roach ling allin on maps where the rush distance is not very long (close air meta, close air shattered temple).
Basically I have a feeling that it's not safe to take the natural until siege mode in any case with reactor hellion opener against zerg.
what are your thoughts ?

Host-

New Zealand459 Posts

January 27 2012 09:36 GMT

#24

On January 27 2012 18:34 djtopa wrote:
This is a really good build and it's incredibly difficult to hold as terran. I open reactor hellion expand every single time against zerg. Do you think it is possible to hold it ?
I can't scout the roach warren because the zergs initial lings will kill my scv.
After my scout dies I have two options:
1. Blindly prepare for this, build a bunker at my ramp, keep the CC inbase build a tech lab on the factory, get tanks and siege ASAP and build marauders (?) aswell. In this case I can take my natural when siege is ready. If he does the roach ling bling allin, I can have siege ready and not die. But if not and he just builds a couple speedlings than he can take map control and I loose all the advantages the hellion opener gives me.
2. Continue making hellions till about 4-6 then get tanks and siege mode. This will die to roach ling bling almost 100% but if they don't do it I can deny 3rd and keep the zerg in base till mutas are out.
Also hellion opener can easily die to a simple roach ling allin on maps where the rush distance is not very long (close air meta, close air shattered temple).
Basically I have a feeling that it's not safe to take the natural until siege mode in any case with reactor hellion opener against zerg.
what are your thoughts ?

The trick, as with all all ins, is scouting it. I think you should stil float your cc down, and as soon as you see a roach warren/roaches, throw down a bunker. Then if you scout anything else suspicious with your hellions, throw down another 1-2, and then you've held.

oOOoOphidian

United States1402 Posts

January 27 2012 09:53 GMT

#25

This push is significantly weaker than the popular roach/baneling attack that has been used often in GSL, as Darkforce indicated. That one has a lot more drones and hits only 40 seconds later, while having a way better ability to transition into a 3rd base and mutalisks. The higher drone count also makes it easier to continue applying a little pressure as a follow up, too. The other build is not really so all-in and is fairly safe against something like cloaked banshees or mech builds that have tanks (which hold the push quite well). Also, the more common roach/baneling attack allows for building speedlings early on to deal with hellions, rather than relying on queens and drones to hold them until roaches pop.

MarcusRife

343 Posts

January 27 2012 10:33 GMT

#26

Why do you get 2 queens? You don't use all that larvae. It seems to me you could drop the 2nd queen for an earlier roach warren and not have as big a window where you are vulnerable to hellions. Perhaps something like:

+ Show Spoiler +

9 Overlord
15 Scout
15 Hatchery
15 Spawning Pool
17 Extractor
16 Overlord
18 Queen
20 Zergling
24 Roach Warren
23 Overlord
28 Roach[2]
32 Overlord
32 Zergling[4]
36 Overlord
36 Zergling[4]
40 Roach[5]
50 Overlord
50 Roach
52 Metabolic Boost
52 Baneling Nest
51 Zergling[9]

The first Roaches are out ~5:35. The baneling nest is done ~7:30. Metabolic Boost ~8:00. I find that this is much more efficient with larvae. There is probably still some optimization left to be done, but I feel the one you have proposed is very far from optimal given your objective.

ELYSiUMlol

United States89 Posts

January 27 2012 12:28 GMT

#27

Oh my God this build is such a rapetrain.

I do think there are probably better ways to do it though, it seems really, really low econ, but idk.

enecateReAP

United Kingdom378 Posts

January 27 2012 12:35 GMT

#28

DRG has a variation of this build where you go upto around 32 drones, it's really strong.
Can't remember the time it hits, but it isn't far off this one.

Xorphene

United Kingdom492 Posts

January 27 2012 12:41 GMT

#29

This thread had a couple of people highlighting the Nestea and DRG versions:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=296315

kyllinghest

Norway1607 Posts

January 27 2012 13:35 GMT

#30

I like this build alot! I think its way harder to defend these types of pushes when there are banelings involved. Great thread!

Tailss

Sweden233 Posts

January 27 2012 14:00 GMT

#31

You'll most likely be able to scout an all in with your first 2 hellions, and if you dont, just build a bunker at your natural anyway just to be safe. Try to wall off with depots and perhaps even put a depot in front of your bunker. This will help you greatly against any all in really. You should absolutely not wait for siege mode before you move your CC out. Thats gonna set you behind quite a bit if your opponent doesnt go for an all in. I dont think this particular strategy is impossible to hold at your natural at all. You just need to place your buildings correctly and a little bit of micro.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

January 27 2012 14:50 GMT

#32

On January 27 2012 13:25 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Oh, what i wnated to know, why do you prefer this variation over the one was used in GSL quite a few times? (i havent tried around much with it personally, so im not sure what pros/cons are) that gets a good bit more drones, 2nd gas and aims for a bigger, later attack with more eco to back it up.

Like you say, there are pros and cons to both sides. This build is great because of the time it hits (8:20 is so early). If you do it later around 9min, cloak banshee and siege tanks are often out. This version is a straight-up all-in, DRG's version has more drones therefore you can transition fairly well into muta play (and, like you mention, you get a 2nd gas and more banelings)

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

January 27 2012 16:58 GMT

#33

On January 27 2012 08:41 DarKFoRcE wrote:
i like this allin better than than your other one (yea yea i know the other one is not as allin ~~). i think under hard counters you should be listing builds that get banshees before CC, because the first banshee should be out a bit before you move out, and when terran sees you moving out with his hellions, he just starts shooting your slowly crawling roaches with his banshee, and you will take quite some losses before you have gotten over the map. also a second banshee pops soon after and will make the attack even less good.

but i dont only want to hate on this one, as i think its definitely an improvement over the other one, because chances of dealing alot of damage or outright winning seem better with the banelings, but its weak against about the same things.

Well it depends on the build. If they do a very strong 1/1/1 all in with banshees, you're in dire straights - just like you mention, the banshees start attacking your roaches / banes while they're walking over or morphing in. If they go 2port banshee though, you can almost always break in and wreck their mineral line without the need for banelings. I think the biggest hard-counter is the 1/1/1 All-In (defensively at first, with cloak)

jliu

282 Posts

January 27 2012 17:16 GMT

#34

Thanks for the guide prof tang. But is it just me but most of the build order is essentially your roachling "all in or is it" build except for a 15 hatch instead of 14 and a baneling nest instead of transitioning?

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

January 27 2012 17:21 GMT

#35

On January 28 2012 02:16 jliu wrote:
Thanks for the guide prof tang. But is it just me but most of the build order is essentially your roachling "all in or is it" build except for a 15 hatch instead of 14 and a baneling nest instead of transitioning?

Hey jliu, the build is VERY similar in the opening stages. It's the execution and transition that differs (as well as the overall goal). I wanted to do a guide that is definitively all-in, designed specifically to end the game outright.

DarKFoRcE

Germany1215 Posts

January 27 2012 17:24 GMT

#36

On January 28 2012 01:58 TangSC wrote:

Show nested quote +

why does 1/1/1 have to be allin? i have seen people go reactor hellion into 1 banshee and then CC quite a few times. of course terran sacs some eco for the early banshee, but they can also put more pressure, as zergs often go very light on early defenses these days.

of course 1/1/1 allin owns the build just as bad. also, im pretty sure that 2 port banshee does not have banshee that much later compared to 1-1-1. i guess it also depends on the size of the map, coz on maps like TDA terminus antiga(cross only) and such, your units really take quite some time to walk over the map, giving terran ample time to prepare (yea yea i know u send out few roaches first, but once they are a bit out, terran can drive around them and see whether there is more stuff coming behind, you see koreans do that all the time).

iGn1t3

Hong Kong73 Posts

January 27 2012 17:31 GMT

#37

Like your guides dude. Thanks TangSC. It is really fun to just build units as an opener instead of marco kinging and defending all the time (not that I have the best drone and ling micro anyways... -_-!!). Changes how I play my solos and team games quite a bit.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

January 27 2012 19:46 GMT

#38

On January 28 2012 02:31 iGn1t3 wrote:
Like your guides dude. Thanks TangSC. It is really fun to just build units as an opener instead of marco kinging and defending all the time (not that I have the best drone and ling micro anyways... -_-!!). Changes how I play my solos and team games quite a bit.

Glad to hear it iGn ^^ It's important to have aggressive responses and macro responses as a Zerg player. Be sure to upload a few replays if you use this style!