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On March 17 2024 03:04 justanothertownie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2024 03:01 Jealous wrote:On March 17 2024 02:58 justanothertownie wrote:On March 17 2024 02:53 Jealous wrote:On March 17 2024 02:38 justanothertownie wrote:On March 16 2024 23:26 iamperfection wrote:On March 16 2024 19:31 Palmar wrote:On March 16 2024 11:21 iamperfection wrote:
I think Palmar just has to be mafia. I have listed the reasons several times and i just keep wifoming myself out of it. His reactions to the CC flip just adds to it he had no real thoughts or analysis to make as he isn't interested in figuring things out. This is the kinda shit that keeps you out of my towncircle. Of course I have no reaction. I "knew" she was town and I was highly annoyed at her. The people who I feel in hindsight swung the lynch onto her (DP/Vivax) are my town circle people so while I don't quite understand why they did it after all the dick move analysis, I don't think this warrants looking into them. DP shot mafia. He gets to be alive until lylo. That is the earliest I think he should be looked into. Vivax is a bed we kinda made on day 1, but there are additional reasons to think he may be town. I liked his early posting, and I don't think he does the whole paranoia thing as mafia. So why are my "reactions to the cc flip" bad? There is nothing to learn. We lynched a townie who everyone thought was town. The only way it actually becomes interesting if we confirm Jealous is mafia. But that would be a pre-flip association and you know how I feel about even post-flip associations. I dont really give a shit about your town circle palmar. if you want to call me mafia you need to refute this https://tl.net/forum/mafia/621454-a-classy-game-of-mafia?page=395#7899 otherwise im not gonna even entertain the discussion. My problem once again is that i feel like its pulling teeth from you to get attempts to discover mafia. You basically ignore all my larger points. Lets pretend you are town. I know i am town. I think the corrupt mayor theory isnt right so vivax is town. On March 09 2024 11:52 Grackaroni wrote:
Day Two Vote Count
Oatsmaster (9): Alakaslam, Jealous, JacobStrangelove, Rels, Meapak_Ziphh, iamperfection, DarthPunk, die_meatbaby, CopCake, Justanothertownie, ToTheStars, Koshi, marvellosity, JacobStrangelove, Alakaslam
VisceraEyes (7): Koshi, Oatsmaster, iamperfection, Vivax, Palmar, Alakaslam, Meapak_Ziphh, iamperfection, CopCake
Palmar (0): Oatsmaster, CopCake, iamperfection, JacobStrangelove, CopCake
Jealous (0): CopCake
Justanothertownie (0): Vivax, Oatsmaster
ToTheStars (0): iamperfection, Oatsmaster
marvellosity (0): Vivax
die_meatbaby (0): Oatsmaster
VisceraEyes (0): iamperfection
CopCake (0): Jealous
Not Voting (1): VisceraEyes
With 9 votes, Oatsmaster is currently set to be lynched!
The deadline is Saturday, Mar 09 3:00am GMT (GMT+00:00), which is in
Are we suggesting that 4 mafia were on the oats wagon? I dont think that is likely. I really would like the detail summary of that discord in full because i think it just has to be mz and palmar are mafia together the more i think about it. I do not think there necessarily has to be mafia on VE - if there is then maybe MZ. If the lynch goes through and VE flips town Oats will just be killed the day after and everyone who took part looks absolutely terrible. It would only postpone the result for no real gain. Hmmm... On March 08 2024 12:40 Rels wrote:On March 08 2024 10:56 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:On March 07 2024 23:18 marvellosity wrote:On March 07 2024 22:56 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
Everyone who has called into question Slam's check in anyway is instantly less town to me. That starts with copcake but also includes you now Koshi. It's got the vibe of a scum team that left slam alive thinking he wasn't gonna find any of them and are now mad that he's better than they thought.
If Oats flips VT we can revisit this but right now these posts only serve as opening the door for Oats to get out of the lynch.
Also funny your push was onto me Koshi when I'm the same lynch Oats tried to push as the alternative to him. Do you really think mafia think they can wiggle out of a red check? I think the opposite to you. I think mafia absolutely rolls with the red check. BING BING BING I FOUND IT. Crazy how you set up the premise of scum just rolling with a red check and I come back to the thread to find eveyrone looking for reasons not to lynch a red check. How convenient. Really disagree with this. Unless you're playing the "chaotic town" card, scum absolutely know there is no way Oats will survive the game if he's scum (or if he's town for that matter). We're not even in LYLO, buying one more day doesn't accomplish anything if it comes at the cost of their credibility Hmmm... On March 08 2024 12:46 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:On March 08 2024 12:40 Rels wrote:On March 08 2024 10:56 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:On March 07 2024 23:18 marvellosity wrote:On March 07 2024 22:56 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
Everyone who has called into question Slam's check in anyway is instantly less town to me. That starts with copcake but also includes you now Koshi. It's got the vibe of a scum team that left slam alive thinking he wasn't gonna find any of them and are now mad that he's better than they thought.
If Oats flips VT we can revisit this but right now these posts only serve as opening the door for Oats to get out of the lynch.
Also funny your push was onto me Koshi when I'm the same lynch Oats tried to push as the alternative to him. Do you really think mafia think they can wiggle out of a red check? I think the opposite to you. I think mafia absolutely rolls with the red check. BING BING BING I FOUND IT. Crazy how you set up the premise of scum just rolling with a red check and I come back to the thread to find eveyrone looking for reasons not to lynch a red check. How convenient. Really disagree with this. Unless you're playing the "chaotic town" card, scum absolutely know there is no way Oats will survive the game if he's scum (or if he's town for that matter). We're not even in LYLO, buying one more day doesn't accomplish anything if it comes at the cost of their credibility I think that is naive to think that the town will have the discipline to come back to a red check if they pass it over once. A lot can change in a single day cycle. ? What are you trying to say here? Complete mind meld between you and Rels, but MZ doesn't seem to agree. This is while MZ was still pushing for an Oats lynch, but ended up not being on the Oats wagon. "A lot can change in a single day cycle" is almost predictive in this case, as what changed was that MZ ended up on the ML wagon. Ah, I see. And you think he would be posting his mafia thoughts this openly? Would they not talk about this in discord?
Reminder that this is him arguing to lynch Oats D2. So this is part of his argument as for why that is the correct play. If anything, this to me reads more like a future "See how sure I was of the Oats thing, guys?" if a counterwagon doesn't take off. It's like laying a foundation.
In this world, the temptation of the counterwagon on VE taking off made MZ abandon his position to buy one more day. I think the argument that "one more day doesn't change" anything argument is inaccurate, because it creates an extra ML before a scum is taken out in this case. Like gaining a tempo in chess. And as MZ says, "A lot can change in a single day."
Let's leave hypothetical land for a bit and explore the following question instead: Does a person's entire logical framework change within a single day with no additional concrete evidence?
This isn't a change in reads like from town to scum or vice versa. This is a complete reversal of their beliefs about how the game works, within 24 hours. On March 7th, not lynching Oats is not an option because it's too great of a risk to take from a gameplay standpoint. On March 8th, not lynching Oats is fine because VE just looks so scummy?
This is including the meta knowledge that VE gets ML'd all the time, apparently (I can't attest to this personally but it's been brought up several times in this thread).
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On March 09 2024 08:40 Vivax wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2024 08:38 iamperfection wrote:On March 09 2024 07:12 Palmar wrote:
I'm not actually caught up on today. has no time to read but has time to waste fucking 15 min on making a joke for rayn gtfo Stay the course on VE. You're taking away from the only chance of not lynching Oats.
God damn this looks so damn bad, if Vivax wasn't basically confirmed town this would just look atrocious lmao. Vivax's claim D1 has done like 99% of the heavy lifting for him.
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I do remember still reading it as "Town trying to bait scum into jumping ship, maybe" which would make sense if you're basically conf!town though, so maybe it's just galaxy brain play outside of the scope of my appreciation.
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On March 09 2024 09:22 Vivax wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2024 09:21 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
I went to the store and got some groceries and realized pretty much every realistic scum team scenario I was trying to figure out did not contain Oats but definitely included VE.
And yes, my math was also wrong. Go back and buy a coke maybe then you can post the entire team.
God tier post btw, one of my favorites in the whole game.
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So shortly after catching up with the thread and with a more clear mind, this point from this post stood out to me:
On March 16 2024 18:53 Palmar wrote:
Iamp, being annoying as he usually is, complained about me not talking about MZ. That is actually a really good point. To me MZ has been the most invisible player in the game.
My thoughts on the rest of the content of that post aside, I thought "Hmmm, that is a good point, and I kind of share that perception with Palmar."
This reminded me of D2 and MZ's switch onto VE. At the time, they got away with it pretty easily all things considered, as there were still bigger fish to fry in most people's minds (for me it was CopCake, for many others it was still VE, etc.) and because we had far fewer flips to reliably narrow down who among the VE wagon might be scum. Seeing iamp's post with the D2 vote count further solidified for me the need to go back and get an accurate timeline of MZ's progression from what I recalled to be a firm "lynch Oats" stance to then ending up on town!VE. Times will be in EST because that's just easier for me but I'll provide links. I'll be omitting/not commenting on some of the more repetitive stuff, like the second calculator post.
Night of March 6th - 7th
22:00 - D2 starts
22:11 - Slam posts Oats' red flip.
22:17 - MZ states that they are willing to lynch Oats to remove the possibility of framer/miller.
22:22 - MZ votes for Oats.
22:54 - Still considers VE the next-best lynch target. Laying the foundation?
22:55 - Making another point on VE: "like this post sounds like resigned scum who doesn't have much to talk about and is watching one of their team members go down to a red check."
23:17 - Vote count is 7 on Oats including MZ, 1 on DMB (Oats).
23:42 - Starts pressuring CopCake on Slam vs. Oats, possibility of Slam being scum, 1-for-1 situation, etc.
23:51 23:54 00:00 - Three more posts in the above line of pressuring CopCake.
00:08 - Infamous math post; "Me personally, I'm taking that [chance that Oats is scum] every time."
00:10 - CopCake votes Oats; "Welcome to the correct answer 12 pages later."
Day of March 7th
08:36 - Says that they will be out for most of the day due to a flight.
08:49 08:52 - Makes defensive posts against Koshi's scum read on MZ, which is based mostly on meta stuff. Repeats twice that the vote has to be on the red check. "If you were arguing for someone like VE I'd still say you're wrong because the chance this check is wrong is so low."
08:56 - "Everyone who has called into question Slam's check in anyway is instantly less town to me."
08:59 - Another defensive post against Koshi, pointing out that Oats has been trying to push MZ as an alternative to himself, and that's why Koshi's world view is wrong. We're going to jump ahead of the timeline here for a bit for the sake of continuity: Oats flailed a lot in the evening of March 6th EST by pressuring, casting doubt upon, and scumreading a lot of people. Examples: Me, me again, DMB, VE, and JAT. Only after MZ's math post we get Oats being triggered and making a case on MZ. Oats then accuses MZ of just wanting to park their vote on him based on the previous interaction with CopCake. Oats then goes on to chime in to bus TTS in the very next post, so we know he has no qualms about doing so when it works to his advantage. At this point we are up to 6 people Oats has pushed as potential alternative wagons. Oats then continues to push JAT as scum, later busses and votes TTS, but his pressure against JAT continues for many posts until the lynch. He then votes JAT. We will get back to Oats vs. MZ later, but at this point, my conclusion is that MZ really hasn't been pushed all that hard by Oats, not even a vote over TTS. It was all done based on one bad math post and Oats moved on to his next target.
09:05 - More defense against Koshi, now saying that it "pinged" MZ that Koshi is making this case. Basically a low level retaliatory scum read, especially in retrospect.
09:08 - Still pushing the Oats lynch hard.
09:10 - Now it's "Why Palmar and not VE?"
09:28 - "We could instead be discussing VE or TTS or even yourself [marv]..."
09:45 - 10 on Oats including MZ, 1 on DMB (Oats).
09:54 - "There is a lot of uncertainty right now in my eyes with people like Copcake/DMB/JAT/Marv they would be better topics. We could also discuss VE a bit more, while I'm pretty sold he's lurking scum, some folks may still have him as town so we could be fleshing that out."
Night of March 7th - 8th
20:55 - 10 on Oats, 2 on JAT, 1 on TTS. Oats first goes to TTS then to JAT. Iamperfection went from Oats to TTS.
20:56 - Pings marv because "Crazy how you set up the premise of scum just rolling with a red check and I come back to the thread to find eveyrone looking for reasons not to lynch a red check. How convenient." Basically, still firmly on Oats.
21:02 - Chastising Koshi, still firms on Oats. There are several more posts like this directed to Vivax and Oats as well. Another at 21:12.
Oats posts: 21:04 21:08 - Oats is sowing the seeds of doubt in MZ. "they can't all be mafia so..."
21:09 - MZ still talking about marv, saying they have "metas suspicions" of marv, still pushing the red check.
21:17 - MZ still talking about marv, still firmly on Oats. I'm going to stop cataloguing every single one of these because ther are so many. Basically all of page 8 from MZ's filter.
Oats post: 21:34 - "10/10 would lynch ve as well"
21:57 - Pointing this one out because MZ catalogues all the people who suggested alternatives to Oats. Summarized list:
1. iamp suggests TTS
2. Koshi says we should lynch Oats, lists Rels/MZ/VE/Palmar. Throws in Jacob too.
3. Vivax saying he won't vote Oats, votes marv.
"You’re right vivax, koshi hasn’t been a factor since I left the thread this morning." "Also This does not clear marv in anyway, if anything I find it funny hes now doing what he said scum would do and just go along with the lynch."
22:46 - "I think that is naive to think that the town will have the discipline to come back to a red check if they pass it over once. A lot can change in a single day cycle." As I mention here, doesn't this seem awfully prophetic?
23:34 - MZ starting to show signs of cracking, by basically blaming 10 people for reading Oats as town but still knowing it is the right vote at this point. "I can't believe I'm even considering this seriously." Somehow, we are supposed to believe that other people's reads are more important to MZ than their votes or MZ's own belief in what is the objectively right thing to do, something hey have chastised several others for not also believing in the preceding 24 hours?
00:44 - Gives a half-hearted townread on DMB; "at the end of the day I see more scum in VE/Marv at this point."
01:03 - Scumreads marv due to meta.
Day of March 8th
08:32 - 9 on Oats including MZ, 2 on Palmar, 1 on JAT, 1 on TTS, 1 on VE. Koshi switched from Oats to VE. Oats switched to Palmar. CopCake switched to Palmar.
11:14 - First post back ends with "What do you think of this VE push?"
11:31 - "The biggest thing for me right now are the amount of people who voted Oats while calling him town. People caveating their votes like that is making me second guess some things."
11:58 - "In a vacuum I think he's going to flip red because of how unlikely it is for either of those events to occur. But everyone being so wishy washy with their votes is making me uncomfortable."
12:12 - We are now approaching full walkback mode. "People not overcoming their personal read in the face of a red check and voting with their read is at least more honest than not overcoming that read but still voting for the red check."
Evening of March 8th
18:11 - "Slam talks about Oats a lot in his filter, if you were going to target slam with a framer, all you'd have to do is pick from his scum reads which he doesn't have a bunch of and your math gets a lot better."
18:27 - Re: CopCake: "If she actually cared about not lynching Oats, VE already had to votes on him when she voted jealous. Instead she just yeets her vote out a window."
18:36 - Re: Palmar: "That said, his decision to park his vote on VE instead of just throwing it on someone random like copcake sits a little better with me, assuming VE is scum, because now the vote count is pretty close and I can't imagine if he was scum with VE he'd risk that." <- Setting up the WIFOM?
18:46 - "I actually am pretty set on copcake being scum at the moment, her votes are just horrible for a townie. It begs the question why doesn't she want to be on Oats."
19:17 - MZ switches to VE. "fuckit"
19:21 - "I went to the store and got some groceries and realized pretty much every realistic scum team scenario I was trying to figure out did not contain Oats but definitely included VE."
19:46 - "I've spent most of today trying to figure this out, at least I'm more certain of this move because it's VE."
19:59 - "Slam Ninja'd back onto Oats so I think this is probably gonna be a nonstarter."
21:08 - To Oats: "Damn dude we very similar reads and I came around to the idea that you were town and you're still scumreading me? I have spent far too much time over the last day trying to discern your alignment, I'm sticking with town."
22:07 - "Gj to the folks who stuck that lynch through, should have stuck with my gut and not get lost in the vivax/koshi sauce there. Oh well, my fault for talking myself into it."
Voting Breakdown
22:22 - MZ votes for Oats.
23:17 - 7 on Oats including MZ, 1 on DMB (Oats).
09:45 - 10 on Oats including MZ, 1 on DMB (Oats).
20:55 - 10 on Oats including MZ, 2 on JAT, 1 on TTS. Oats first goes to TTS then to JAT. Iamperfection went from Oats to TTS.
08:32 - 9 on Oats including MZ, 2 on Palmar, 1 on JAT, 1 on TTS, 1 on VE. Koshi switched from Oats to VE. Oats switched to Palmar. CopCake switched to Palmar.
13:41 - 10 on Oats including MZ, 3 on VE, 1 on JAT, 1 on Jealous. Oats and iamp switched to VE. CopCake switched to Jealous. Marv voted Oats.
19:17 - MZ switches to VE.
19:49 - 9 on Oats not including MZ, 5 on VE, 1 on Palmar, 1 on Jealous. Order of switches:
1. Vivax switched to VE.
2. Palmar switched to VE.
3. Slam switched to VE.
4. iamp switched to Palmar.
5. JSL switched to Palmar.
6. MZ switched to VE. <- They were the last to do so after the wagon started taking off here. At this point there were 7 votes on Oats and they became the 6th vote on VE. Pushing it into easy ML territory.
7. JSL switched to Oats. <- Town hero btw.
8. Slam switched to Oats. <- Town hero btw. It's almost like he baited out MZ here.
21:51 - 9 on Oats not including MZ, 7 on VE. Order of switches:
1. iamp switched to VE.
2. CopCake switched to Palmar.
3. CopCake switched to VE. <- "How many scummy things can town do in one game" record holder btw.
Final Vote Breakdown::
On March 09 2024 11:51 Grackaroni wrote:
Oatsmaster (9): Alakaslam, Jealous, JacobStrangelove, Rels, Meapak_Ziphh, iamperfection, DarthPunk, die_meatbaby, CopCake, Justanothertownie, ToTheStars, Koshi, marvellosity, JacobStrangelove, Alakaslam
VisceraEyes (7): Koshi, Oatsmaster, iamperfection, Vivax, Palmar, Alakaslam, Meapak_Ziphh, iamperfection, CopCake
Conclusion::
I think it's time to stop ignoring what is, in my opinion, objectively the biggest potential scum tell left in the game. MZ was not alone in this. To my recollection, MZ's transition from Oats to VE was the most unnatural. However, we need to hear from iamp and Palmar, in that order. Vivax, this was still a bad call for you.
##Vote: Meapak_Ziphh
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If anyone wants to take a look at iamp/Palmar's vote/read progression from D2 for comparison, that would be great. I'm definitely not doing another one of these, but I am guessing theirs should be easier as they were relatively less invested into it/prolifically vocal about it if my recollection is correct.
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On March 17 2024 04:49 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
I mean... well done posting my entire filter for a 3 day stretch? I have been abundantly clear on what I was thinking, when I was thinking it, and why I was thinking it. It's very convenient that this case comes the day after I started putting pressure on you for whatever the fuck happened after yesterday's deadline. It's also gotten you out of having to defend or explain your scumreads of Palmar, Rels, or DMB.
I think I did a pretty good job on Palmar tbh. I'll take a dive on Rels later today, tired of reading for now. DMB is apparently off-limits and I got chastised for pursuing it so it is what it is, plus I think I'll go insane if I have to read their filter again.
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On March 17 2024 05:04 Vivax wrote:
MZ what‘s your gender?
Might need updating after his case
Lmfao 😂
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On March 17 2024 05:10 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2024 05:06 Vivax wrote:
I think it‘s a case made with the help of scripts or something, maybe some ghostwriters who slave for Jealous.
It‘s still a bit disconnected from the game. There is no emphasis of MZ drunkposting during D2 when I briefly thought it made him 100% mafia. Those would be great to leverage his arguments. It's literally just a summary of what I posted. I've already explained and reexplained where I was coming from. But I read his post in the context that I posted this 3 hours ago: Show nested quote +On March 17 2024 01:47 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:On March 16 2024 19:37 Palmar wrote:I hate reading MZ so much. I'm so certain he has to be mafia for the game to make sense. And my feeling throughout the game, and even very often in his posting he sounds like passive mafia. He's never in the thick of things. He even did the same dumbass "I'll be mayor" thing that Oats did. But he's just such a genuinely likable person that I don't want to call him scum, and it makes it hard. I'm just a short bit into his filter and I need to head out now. I am going to be far less available than yesterday, so you know, if you wanna take a shot at me, your shot is today boys  This sounds like pure scum frustration right here realizing that despite all the shade he's been throwing me this game, nobody has bitten hard on it and he doesn't actually have a case. If he ever "finishes" reading my filter I'm gonna be super stoked to see what sort of case he comes up with. He's grasping at straws and he knows it. It's funny how the best he can manage is "passive mafia" and then put that phrase in this sort of post. Like his post is the epitome of passive mafia right here. Pointing out Palmar's lack of case on me. Very very convenient timing for him to develop that read after not having me on his scum list up until this morning.
If you think this took me only 3 hours in between lunch + YT video, text messages with friends and family, and responding to other posts here, then you must think very highly of me, thank you.
FWIW I started some time between these two posts, so about 5 hours ago:
https://tl.net/forum/mafia/621454-a-classy-game-of-mafia?page=462#9225
https://tl.net/forum/mafia/621454-a-classy-game-of-mafia?page=462#9231
So anything that happened after wasn't really a factor, I was gonna do this anyway. The actual post that inspired me to do this was indeed Palmar's though, it's the one I quoted at the top, from last night:
https://tl.net/forum/mafia/621454-a-classy-game-of-mafia?page=460#9200
On March 17 2024 05:06 Vivax wrote:
I think it‘s a case made with the help of scripts or something, maybe some ghostwriters who slave for Jealous.
It‘s still a bit disconnected from the game. There is no emphasis of MZ drunkposting during D2 when I briefly thought it made him 100% mafia. Those would be great to leverage his arguments.
I am above that level of hypocrisy 🍻 #drunkposters4life
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On March 17 2024 05:16 iamperfection wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2024 05:06 Vivax wrote:
I think it‘s a case made with the help of scripts or something, maybe some ghostwriters who slave for Jealous.
It‘s still a bit disconnected from the game. There is no emphasis of MZ drunkposting during D2 when I briefly thought it made him 100% mafia. Those would be great to leverage his arguments. what a giga chad if its not using scripts though.
I type really fast.
On March 17 2024 05:18 iamperfection wrote:
Jealous did you read the whole palmar mz mason dynamic going on?
Yea I saw it, honestly I don't think I can find much AI in someone else's mason chats when there are timezone differences, one of them traveling constantly and the other seeming pretty disinterested in the chat and with the concept of masons in general IIRC from Palmar's filter.
I did find the point that if they were both scum that they might try harder to make it seem productive/active to be an interesting one, it was a good thought. No guarantee that they would have had that same thought, though. I think focusing on stuff that actually happened in the game (posts, reads, and votes) makes more sense to me overall.
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On March 17 2024 05:28 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2024 05:25 Jealous wrote:On March 17 2024 05:16 iamperfection wrote:On March 17 2024 05:06 Vivax wrote:
I think it‘s a case made with the help of scripts or something, maybe some ghostwriters who slave for Jealous.
It‘s still a bit disconnected from the game. There is no emphasis of MZ drunkposting during D2 when I briefly thought it made him 100% mafia. Those would be great to leverage his arguments. what a giga chad if its not using scripts though. I type really fast. On March 17 2024 05:18 iamperfection wrote:
Jealous did you read the whole palmar mz mason dynamic going on? Yea I saw it, honestly I don't think I can find much AI in someone else's mason chats when there are timezone differences, one of them traveling constantly and the other seeming pretty disinterested in the chat and with the concept of masons in general IIRC from Palmar's filter. I did find the point that if they were both scum that they might try harder to make it seem productive/active to be an interesting one, it was a good thought. No guarantee that they would have had that same thought, though. I think focusing on stuff that actually happened in the game (posts, reads, and votes) makes more sense to me overall. So you now think that Palmar and I can't be scum together? Is that what you're saying here?
Not sure how you got that from what I said. I think it's possible, because I don't think that the mason chat was AI.
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On March 17 2024 05:06 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2024 04:58 Jealous wrote:On March 17 2024 04:49 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
I mean... well done posting my entire filter for a 3 day stretch? I have been abundantly clear on what I was thinking, when I was thinking it, and why I was thinking it. It's very convenient that this case comes the day after I started putting pressure on you for whatever the fuck happened after yesterday's deadline. It's also gotten you out of having to defend or explain your scumreads of Palmar, Rels, or DMB. I think I did a pretty good job on Palmar tbh. I'll take a dive on Rels later today, tired of reading for now. DMB is apparently off-limits and I got chastised for pursuing it so it is what it is, plus I think I'll go insane if I have to read their filter again. Dude this: Show nested quote +--"Conclusion"--
I think that Palmar is pretty hard to put a finger on. Did he type a lot of things? Yes. Were some of them good-sounding? Assuredly so. Does he have strong convictions, drive, and does he ever put himself into any significant danger? No. This was your conclusion on Palmar. Like you refused to outright scum read him despite him being #2 on your list of scum targets and just chickened out with "pretty hard to put a finger on." I don't believe this read any more than I believe you forgot Koshi had died last night. Also your "case" (summarizing my D2) is now perfectly set up for Palmar to push without actually ever having to do work himself. If you get me mislynched today, Palmar's hands will still be clean.
FWIW by "pretty hard to put a finger on" was more about his general lack of conviction, which was what my last sentence in that paragraph was addressing, which is also why I put him down as scummier than iamp and JAT in the end. It felt more like a person trying to not make too many waves than iamp and JAT who were more outspoken and aggressive at times, even if it was to their detriment and/or they were wrong.
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On March 17 2024 05:30 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2024 05:29 Jealous wrote:On March 17 2024 05:28 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:On March 17 2024 05:25 Jealous wrote:On March 17 2024 05:16 iamperfection wrote:On March 17 2024 05:06 Vivax wrote:
I think it‘s a case made with the help of scripts or something, maybe some ghostwriters who slave for Jealous.
It‘s still a bit disconnected from the game. There is no emphasis of MZ drunkposting during D2 when I briefly thought it made him 100% mafia. Those would be great to leverage his arguments. what a giga chad if its not using scripts though. I type really fast. On March 17 2024 05:18 iamperfection wrote:
Jealous did you read the whole palmar mz mason dynamic going on? Yea I saw it, honestly I don't think I can find much AI in someone else's mason chats when there are timezone differences, one of them traveling constantly and the other seeming pretty disinterested in the chat and with the concept of masons in general IIRC from Palmar's filter. I did find the point that if they were both scum that they might try harder to make it seem productive/active to be an interesting one, it was a good thought. No guarantee that they would have had that same thought, though. I think focusing on stuff that actually happened in the game (posts, reads, and votes) makes more sense to me overall. So you now think that Palmar and I can't be scum together? Is that what you're saying here? Not sure how you got that from what I said. I think it's possible, because I don't think that the mason chat was AI. Ah so Palmar is still scum, is he your second highest read now after me? Or where has he shuffled out on the list.
Yea I'd probably say you are more lynchable than him now for me. Still have to look at Rels, also hoping Palmar and iamp address the fact that they too were on that horrible wagon, iamp being the last vote to stick on VE twice even, though as I said before the fact that the second VE vote was TvT with CopCake makes it overall less egregious IMO. And again, if someone else could do the work of looking into their read progressions on Oats instead of just getting the posters-in-question' self-testimonies, that would be a big help IMO.
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On March 09 2024 06:59 Palmar wrote:
Meapak_Ziphh - lack of investigation from me, I'm masoned with the dude but I'm a terrible mason partner because I think they're stupid. That's mostly on me. I also recall some of his posting being a little meek
Found the post I was thinking of. It is interesting to me how this contrasts a bit with the following:
On March 06 2024 07:19 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2024 07:16 Vivax wrote:
I'm retownreading Sandro.
If Palmar is mafia it's Trfel and JAT on the bus train atm. Maybe even Slam. Slam looks decidedly worse this game than last, but I also had the mason thing with him in that game which was very helpful in reading him. I'm on the fence about slam and rayn, I actually don't think Trfel is mafia, but it's a weak townread.
Maybe that's just a Slam-specific thing, though.
Also found this, not exactly relevant to the above exploration but kinda:
On March 07 2024 01:02 Palmar wrote:
I think it's possible that marv, rayn and sandroba are mafia (varying degrees of possibility) and I don't care who masoned who.
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Overall I'd say that MZ looks more townie in the mason chat alone, though it wouldn't be too hard to fake that and leading off with a TR does feel a little awkward unprompted IMO. Kinda like you're buttering him up, which I think is possible as both SvT and TvS and TvT for that matter, so really goes back to my thinking that it is NAI or WIFOM at best.
Palmar just looks wholly disinterested which I think leans slightly more scummy overall but that is WIFOM too, I imagine scum would in general at least try to look interested. If he truly thinks they are stupid then it's NAI, it would have to be a belief that he has in a vacuum outside of this specific game. I guess if anyone has masoned before with Palmar outside of Slam, now would be a good time to compare that to previous occurrences to see if there is some inconsistency there.
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On March 17 2024 05:57 justanothertownie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2024 05:36 Jealous wrote:On March 17 2024 05:30 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:On March 17 2024 05:29 Jealous wrote:On March 17 2024 05:28 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:On March 17 2024 05:25 Jealous wrote:On March 17 2024 05:16 iamperfection wrote:On March 17 2024 05:06 Vivax wrote:
I think it‘s a case made with the help of scripts or something, maybe some ghostwriters who slave for Jealous.
It‘s still a bit disconnected from the game. There is no emphasis of MZ drunkposting during D2 when I briefly thought it made him 100% mafia. Those would be great to leverage his arguments. what a giga chad if its not using scripts though. I type really fast. On March 17 2024 05:18 iamperfection wrote:
Jealous did you read the whole palmar mz mason dynamic going on? Yea I saw it, honestly I don't think I can find much AI in someone else's mason chats when there are timezone differences, one of them traveling constantly and the other seeming pretty disinterested in the chat and with the concept of masons in general IIRC from Palmar's filter. I did find the point that if they were both scum that they might try harder to make it seem productive/active to be an interesting one, it was a good thought. No guarantee that they would have had that same thought, though. I think focusing on stuff that actually happened in the game (posts, reads, and votes) makes more sense to me overall. So you now think that Palmar and I can't be scum together? Is that what you're saying here? Not sure how you got that from what I said. I think it's possible, because I don't think that the mason chat was AI. Ah so Palmar is still scum, is he your second highest read now after me? Or where has he shuffled out on the list. Yea I'd probably say you are more lynchable than him now for me. Still have to look at Rels, also hoping Palmar and iamp address the fact that they too were on that horrible wagon, iamp being the last vote to stick on VE twice even, though as I said before the fact that the second VE vote was TvT with CopCake makes it overall less egregious IMO. And again, if someone else could do the work of looking into their read progressions on Oats instead of just getting the posters-in-question' self-testimonies, that would be a big help IMO. Can you elaborate why palmar is less lynchable than mz in your opinion?
I mean, I think it's pretty close.
MZ pushed the vote to being a 1 vote difference between Oats and VE, so he seems to me to be a better choice. MZ completely changing their philosophy on the proper way to play mafia as a whole generates a fair amount of disbelief in the narrative for me.
I really don't want to do this because I'm pretty mafia-d out at the moment, but it looks like I'll have to go back into Palmar's filter to refresh my memory for how he made the jump from Oats to VE to compare. Heading out for a very late lunch right now, maybe I'll scroll when I go out for a smoke break after.
Do you hold the opposite opinion? Why or why not?
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On March 17 2024 06:06 justanothertownie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2024 06:03 Jealous wrote:On March 17 2024 05:57 justanothertownie wrote:On March 17 2024 05:36 Jealous wrote:On March 17 2024 05:30 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:On March 17 2024 05:29 Jealous wrote:On March 17 2024 05:28 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:On March 17 2024 05:25 Jealous wrote:On March 17 2024 05:16 iamperfection wrote:On March 17 2024 05:06 Vivax wrote:
I think it‘s a case made with the help of scripts or something, maybe some ghostwriters who slave for Jealous.
It‘s still a bit disconnected from the game. There is no emphasis of MZ drunkposting during D2 when I briefly thought it made him 100% mafia. Those would be great to leverage his arguments. what a giga chad if its not using scripts though. I type really fast. On March 17 2024 05:18 iamperfection wrote:
Jealous did you read the whole palmar mz mason dynamic going on? Yea I saw it, honestly I don't think I can find much AI in someone else's mason chats when there are timezone differences, one of them traveling constantly and the other seeming pretty disinterested in the chat and with the concept of masons in general IIRC from Palmar's filter. I did find the point that if they were both scum that they might try harder to make it seem productive/active to be an interesting one, it was a good thought. No guarantee that they would have had that same thought, though. I think focusing on stuff that actually happened in the game (posts, reads, and votes) makes more sense to me overall. So you now think that Palmar and I can't be scum together? Is that what you're saying here? Not sure how you got that from what I said. I think it's possible, because I don't think that the mason chat was AI. Ah so Palmar is still scum, is he your second highest read now after me? Or where has he shuffled out on the list. Yea I'd probably say you are more lynchable than him now for me. Still have to look at Rels, also hoping Palmar and iamp address the fact that they too were on that horrible wagon, iamp being the last vote to stick on VE twice even, though as I said before the fact that the second VE vote was TvT with CopCake makes it overall less egregious IMO. And again, if someone else could do the work of looking into their read progressions on Oats instead of just getting the posters-in-question' self-testimonies, that would be a big help IMO. Can you elaborate why palmar is less lynchable than mz in your opinion? I mean, I think it's pretty close. MZ pushed the vote to being a 1 vote difference between Oats and VE, so he seems to me to be a better choice. MZ completely changing their philosophy on the proper way to play mafia as a whole generates a fair amount of disbelief in the narrative for me. I really don't want to do this because I'm pretty mafia-d out at the moment, but it looks like I'll have to go back into Palmar's filter to refresh my memory for how he made the jump from Oats to VE to compare. Heading out for a very late lunch right now, maybe I'll scroll when I go out for a smoke break after. Do you hold the opposite opinion? Why or why not? I was just trying to understand your thought process. I understood lynchable as "easy to lynch" - but it seems you meant "a good lynch" . Which did not make sense to me. You know my opinion on Palmar. I don't think he is "lynch able" today.
Ah yea I meant it like "good lynch."
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On March 17 2024 06:08 justanothertownie wrote:
I also commented on MZs day1 progression in my large post about him. It is objectively scummy. But also extremely brazen if he is mafia.
I don't know if brazen is the term I'd use, because they put in enough effort to preempt criticism. When I think brazen I think of a person with no fucks to give. MZ clearly gave a lot of fucks.
The scum approach just makes too much sense to me. To boil it down, it's basically:
1. Push hard for an Oats lynch after the flip, so they look neutral-to-good when Oats is lynched.
2. Berate anyone on other wagons when they don't have much steam, effect is similar to #1.
3. When the wagon starts gaining steam, make many posts explaining how you're having a change of heart and why, making it seem like a natural development.
4. "Aw shucks, y'all convinced me. My fault."
And given that it was D2 and the game is still pretty much wide open, there will still be a lot of people looking elsewhere, other townies making questionable plays, and in this game, an easy ML on VE. I think it could have been a calculated gamble.
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On March 17 2024 06:18 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2024 05:48 Jealous wrote:
Overall I'd say that MZ looks more townie in the mason chat alone, though it wouldn't be too hard to fake that and leading off with a TR does feel a little awkward unprompted IMO. Kinda like you're buttering him up, which I think is possible as both SvT and TvS and TvT for that matter, so really goes back to my thinking that it is NAI or WIFOM at best.
Palmar just looks wholly disinterested which I think leans slightly more scummy overall but that is WIFOM too, I imagine scum would in general at least try to look interested. If he truly thinks they are stupid then it's NAI, it would have to be a belief that he has in a vacuum outside of this specific game. I guess if anyone has masoned before with Palmar outside of Slam, now would be a good time to compare that to previous occurrences to see if there is some inconsistency there. And you too. I am very interested in this game. I’m one of like the top 3 players in terms of games played and this may be the longest filter I’ve ever produced. I am very interested in the game. No idea why people feel comfortable pushing the idea I’m not interested or haven’t done stuff. If you wanna push that I’ve been wrong or that I’ve been unsure or flip floppy or whatever that’s fine. But I am absolutely interested
This post was about the Mason chat. I think you will agree with me that you looked wholly disinterested there.
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On March 17 2024 06:32 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2024 06:30 Jealous wrote:On March 17 2024 06:18 Palmar wrote:On March 17 2024 05:48 Jealous wrote:
Overall I'd say that MZ looks more townie in the mason chat alone, though it wouldn't be too hard to fake that and leading off with a TR does feel a little awkward unprompted IMO. Kinda like you're buttering him up, which I think is possible as both SvT and TvS and TvT for that matter, so really goes back to my thinking that it is NAI or WIFOM at best.
Palmar just looks wholly disinterested which I think leans slightly more scummy overall but that is WIFOM too, I imagine scum would in general at least try to look interested. If he truly thinks they are stupid then it's NAI, it would have to be a belief that he has in a vacuum outside of this specific game. I guess if anyone has masoned before with Palmar outside of Slam, now would be a good time to compare that to previous occurrences to see if there is some inconsistency there. And you too. I am very interested in this game. I’m one of like the top 3 players in terms of games played and this may be the longest filter I’ve ever produced. I am very interested in the game. No idea why people feel comfortable pushing the idea I’m not interested or haven’t done stuff. If you wanna push that I’ve been wrong or that I’ve been unsure or flip floppy or whatever that’s fine. But I am absolutely interested This post was about the Mason chat. I think you will agree with me that you looked wholly disinterested there. I don’t see the point in mason chats. Go read last game or even a little exchange I had with Marv this game for confirmation
Eh, at least one of your posts would beg to differ. Please see this post I made recently:
https://tl.net/forum/mafia/621454-a-classy-game-of-mafia?page=467#9327
Could you explain the apparent inconsistency here?
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/CA2ERl3.jpeg)
