EPTI've had a read through of the thread, I need to lunch and then I will do some posts.
Cheers
Tere
Newbie Mini Mafia LXI
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
I've had a read through of the thread, I need to lunch and then I will do some posts. Cheers Tere | ||
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(FWIW, I do quite a lot of tone reading as part of my analysis) I dislike Hier's Bridges concept intensely, I consider it anti town in structure in that it forces players down an automated line of thought, discourages rereading thinking, and provides plenty of room for scum to hide in. Trfel, I think, posted a decent summary of his objections which I found myself nodding along to. However, this isn't why I am voting for Hier as scum. It's not unknown for town newbies to post schemes to catch mafia, and, while not town helpful, I don't think the plan itself alone would be alignment indicative. The next few posts defending the plan also read OK, although a little "my way or the highway". Hier's vote on rsoultin also felt a little OMGUSy to me http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=9#178 Where I really start to become uncomfy with Hier is this post, bold mine: On February 16 2015 07:50 Hier wrote: Trfel: It only takes one other player to declare his or her support for the model to get people to support its use. I know how Bridges works and how to use it to get a town victory. I will always abide by its rules, but if you later decide it's not worth it by all means abandon it. I really don't like that Hier says they will always abide by the model's rules, when pretty much everyone has come out and said they don't like it. Could be a stubborn townie, could be scum looking for an easy way to lay their votes down. I also really don't like the refusal to give reads here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=13#247 It really feels as though Hier has not much to say apart from pushing this flawed model. I was writing this as ElyAs was posting, and see their point about the use of language to confuse. Perhaps Hier's style is just normally swallowed a thesaurus regardless of alignment, but I can help but see posts like below as intentionally confusing. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=15#285 Hier, if you are town, you need, I think, to accept the Bridges model ain't happening, and help town to find some counterwagons Back with thoughts on everyone else once I've gone back and done some filter diving. | ||
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I need to see some actual helpful stuff from them before I shift my vote though. (BTW, while I think about it, I won't be here at round end almost certainly, I needed to be up at 4.30 this morning to take my husband to the station, and while I will try and be about, I might flake out. I'm a despiser of last minute vote shenannies anyway, I think they are helpful to town almost never IMO) | ||
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"I was writing this as ElyAs was posting, and see their point about the use of language to confuse. Perhaps Hier's style is just normally swallowed a thesaurus regardless of alignment, but I can't help but see posts like below as intentionally confusing. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=15#285" | ||
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Trfel - I liked Trfel's tongue in cheek entry and attempt to engage the thread, I also thought his interactions with rso and the Shining in the next couple of pages looked unforced and relaxed. I liked the push to close the discussion on the Bridges method and the fair way he suggested to Hier that it be discussed post game. I liked the pushing of rso to be a little less hard on the newbies. Here's the post of Trfel's on the Bridges method I liked: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=12#221 I liked the reaching out to rso - in general I feel Trfel is reaching out and trying to engage folk, and that's encouraging. There's little pockets of tongue in cheek amusement which feel towny also. I'm not sure I am fully on board with Trfel's case against the Shining, but the slow progression and thought process look towny enough. I'm going Town on Trfel for now. I can see peeps are asking me questions from Trfel's filter so I will catch up on the thread and deal with that. | ||
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On February 17 2015 00:30 rsoultin wrote: tere, why was mime (the player you replaced) nervous to post? xP Guys, keep your knickers on if I don't reply immediately, I'm going through filters and posting (that means you, Trfel!) Having had my PM I am completely confident the player in question was just completely overwhelmed and felt out of her depth and the "eep don't eat me" post and the immediate replace was just indicative of that. Incidentally rso, I'm made of sterner stuff  | ||
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jarjarbinks I want to see more from - the first page of that filter washed over me and left no impact. I do see that going to the effort to spreadsheet up the Bridges plan is slightly towny, but I am not sure I would give it lot of town points. But that's possibly my bias against the plan talking. There's a relaxed quality to their posts that I quite like, an in the moment quality that can be hard to replicate as scum. I liked the honesty that they needed to reread, I liked the immediacy of their read change on the shining.Silverarte Slight filter, but she's been catching up too. I liked this post http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=12#221 and there's an ease to her filter I liked. | ||
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rsoultin - one of the larger filters. I liked the reaching out to Trfel in the first few pages - the town finding town looked quite genuine there to me. The interaction with Hier looked quite natural, too. I liked the reaching out and explanation of wifom to zlefin, and the prod at and immediate reaction to jarjar. I also liked that they reached out to Hier here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=13#251 It boils down to relaxed stance, trying to solve the puzzle, just typing rather than crafting every individual post as scum is wont to do. The ShiningI was initially unsure about the Shining's first two posts and withdrawing when reading through, but their later posts looked better and more scumhunty to me. I liked the quick retraction on Jarjar. The only slightly odd post is the defensive would I bus my partner para in this post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=13#242. I see he's a bit suss of Trfel. There's a casual self mocking humour in his filter I like. OK, that's a filter dive done, ugh. I'll go back and pool my lynchpool, I guess. Apart from Hier, I don't feel I find anyone massively scummy, which troubles me :/ | ||
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Known town or towny Tere Trfel rsoultin Don't lynch today The Shining ElyAs Silverarte jarjarbinks Lynchpool zlefin Hier | ||
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I need to do stuff for a bit, but feel free to ask me questions | ||
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On February 17 2015 01:37 Trfel wrote: I guess it's probably best that I post this now. My thoughts on why lynching Hier isn't necessarily the best idea. Hier opened up the game by posting his Bridges method. By advocating something with direct impact on all players, people naturally responded, and it turned out that the responses were mostly negative. It seems that this immediately frustrated Hier a bit, judging by the tone of his first post after that. (link if you want it) From there, Hier is bombarded with questions. This seems to frustrate him more, and he doesn't answer all of them. One answer that he does provide is that he has no reads, which obviously leads to a whole new wave of questions. Hier posts a scumread on rsoultin. (link if you want it) This read actually isn't all that bad. While rsoultin and I have already discussed why the points addressed here make perfect sense, from Hier's perspective, it doesn't make sense. It is normally expected that someone explains their pushes, not asks everyone else for their opinions. Regardless of Hier's alignment, he is clearly frustrated. This leads to his posts being more sarcastic and less responsive, leading to people scumreading him even more (I don't need to post links to posts where Hier is clearly frustrated, it is too obvious). This also would discourage Hier from providing reads. That's why I can see Hier's play coming from a townie. His play hasn't been good, but it isn't unreasonable. That said, if he doesn't do anything to change his play in the near future, he could very well be the best lynch for the day (at least, as I see it). Thoughts? What I keep coming back to is that surely a scum coach and a scum QT would have persuaded Hier to drop the Bridges idea altogether, and / or nipped it in the bud if he posted it without consultation. Hier isn't being town helpful at the moment, but stubbornly sticking your neck out like Hier has isn't that helpful for a scum wincon.. I could be persuaded to another wagon, for sure. Just not sure I am seeing an obvious one. zlefin's filter also doesn't look appealing to me, but if this is their very first game that's equally a possibility for that. | ||
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On February 17 2015 01:49 Trfel wrote: To elaborate, my initial concern is that Tere's reads are more based on mafia ability than alignment indicative information. It is really easy to say why someone is wrong and call them mafia, or say that someone makes sense and call them town. But that isn't scumunting. I noticed that Tere's lynch list seems to definitely put those who have played more games higher on the list. I'm placing you and rso higher up, if that's what you mean, because you two are reaching out to each other and trying to build some town consensus, and that's town helpful behaviour I value. It's not about experience, per se. If anything I think the potential to mislynch a brand new player is higher and have reservations in lynching in that pool, although it's been forever since I played in a genuine newbie game. Happy to chat about my experience level if you wish. I can confirm this is the first time I've played on TL mafia. What do you want to know? Oh yeah, and I'm a she. | ||
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On February 17 2015 02:05 Trfel wrote: I'm not sure I understand this response that much. Town players have coaches too, and by the same logic, a town coach would have said the same thing? And if Hier's play hasn't seemed scum-motivated, why are you voting him? What I do think is scum motivated is his insistence that he's going to use the model regardless of what anyone else does - I picked up on that in my WOT on him when I placed my vote. It's probably the scummiest thing I think anyone has said right now, hence that's where my vote is. I rarely if ever have 100% reads Day 1. I have read your case on the Shining. What other wagons do you think are out there? | ||
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On February 17 2015 02:05 rsoultin wrote: It's a mindmeldy problem that has me biasing toward townreading her, reading her filter. I'm liking her reads in general except, ironically, the one on Hier because I don't really see how his model plays into his alignment and she had it as a reason to scumread him. Yeah, she could be pocketing me lol but at least some of her reads express things I've just thought and haven't actually posted. Regardless, I doubt I'm lynching her today. Perhaps I haven't expressed myself clearly enough in my WOT on him. I don't think the model structure is town helpful, in fact I think it hurts town. But I don't think posting it is that alignment indicative. Insisting you are going to adhere to it in the face of rejection by the rest of the group does look scummy though, IMO, as it provides perfect cover for not needing to give reads. That post and the general refusal to give reads throughout is what's pinging my scumdar. | ||
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Scum and town can be stubborn though *shrug* | ||
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On February 17 2015 02:19 Trfel wrote: I'm almost wondering if this is a scumslip. Why would a town player, particularly one who is new to TL Mafia (thus, probably unfamiliar with both coaching and scum QT's, though I have no clue what the other mafia sites play like so this could be wrong), think of the possibility of a player receiving help from a scum coach or a scum QT and only upon suggestion think of help from a town coach? Attention, attention, step away from the tunnel! Attention! :D (Yeah, I wasn't really thinking of things in terms of coaches TBH - I've never played on a site that has them. I was more thinking of the scumboard and then flung the coach in there without thinking it through to the logical conclusion). | ||
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On February 17 2015 02:26 rsoultin wrote: Meh -_- Truffle Why you're fighting this Hier lynch so much, yet voting for him anyway and setting up for an AFK vote...it is not giving me the warm town fuzzies. Me neither. Lack of alternate wagon push = inexperienced scum partner? | ||
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"I'm not really a complete newbie - just new to Team Liquid. I've probably played in 20 - 25 timed forum mafia games in the past 4 - 5 years, and read about the same number. However, quite a few of those have been on very casual sites where reading and analysis really isn't a thing, hence the shift (I hope) to a site that plays a little more seriously." So I've played quite a few games, but I'm not always the greatest case maker, and I tend to rely on tonal reads probably more than I ought, if I'm honest. | ||
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On February 17 2015 02:33 Trfel wrote: Yes, that is a distinct possibility. I suppose it's also possible that Hier quit and told his partner to bus. I know it's ridiculous, and I can't explain it, but Tere still seems suspicious to me. Her logic is fine, her reads are fine, her tone is comfortable and relaxed, but everything else seems really off. Just, please, keep an eye out... Uhhh... you want to flesh that out a bit? :D (no, I'm not bussing Hier) | ||
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On February 17 2015 02:36 Trfel wrote: That wasn't so much a case, as a collection of thoughts. If it was a case, believe me that I would be pushing it, and you would know. Rsoultin, I don't see any reasonably appealing counterwagons to someone who isn't really defending himself. And I really do need to leave. Stop being so distracting. But, but shinies! | ||
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First off, I think this is his first game: On February 01 2015 20:25 zlefin wrote: I should try this one of these days, so /in Then says he's a slight town read on trfel and slight scum on jarjar, null on the rest. Wants to consider policy lynching for inactivity after 12 hours, which is a little keen IMO. Says reads are mostly tonal and impressions, which I don't see as alignment indicative (given I use tone a lot myself). Townreads Hier (plan too much effort for scum) and rso (likes objections and analysis) after some clarification on WIFOM, then tries to connect you, demonstrating said WIFOM. Still wants to policy lynch even though he thinks it's unlikely it's a scum tell - which the Shining picked up on and I do think is a bit off too, it's funny logic for town. Dislikes the banter between Trfel and jarjar saying jarjar's joking makes him look scummy (I think the opposite). Doesn't like one of Hier's thesaurus posts (nor did I). Posts up his tally system, saying jarjar, hier, silver and trfel are lynchpool, prefers trfel for most information. Asks if he should OMGUS Shining for his push on him. There's a funny question about town probability of Trfel's townread on Hier. Confirms it is his first game and settles for Hier as most probable lynch. Ugh. There's aspects of that logic that I don't like for town (wanting to policy lynch while recognising unlikely to be scum, disliking the banter, wanting to lynch Trfel for most info despite not finding him the most scummy for example), but I can also see that as coming from newbie town, particularly newbie town who seems to be trying to feel their way on their own without relying too much on their coaching support. Bits look scummy but there might be a genuine reason for that in his new player status. I appreciate that's not much help. | ||
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So talk to us! | ||
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Talk to us Jarjar, where is your head at now (Hi, BTW) | ||
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On February 15 2015 15:26 jarjarbinks wrote: Trf's opening: slightly less crazy than last game I played with him in. No random vote the guy who might be inactive play. Wants to promote discussion. I could go either way cuz he "tried" to do that as scum. Shining- not much reaction there. What i'd typically expect I guess? You- I expect you to do what you do every game. You did it...lol Everyone else: I'm guessing they are gone for valentine's. I'd get worried if people aren't chiming in when I wake up tomorrow. While you are here, would you explain why you posted the bolded bit to rsoulin? I am lacking in the meta here. Thanks | ||
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If Hier is town, he really needs to come back into the thread and start reaching out, because lurking away looks terribad. What's everyone's thoughts on Trfel's case on the Shining? What's everyone thinking about Silverarte? | ||
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"I will be adding The Shining to my probable town list, to join jarjarbinks and Trfel. His actions do not make sense from a mafia perspective. Creating a third lynch candidate with no prior suspicion hovering over zlefin on the grounds of suggesting unlikely scenarios seems to be weak town play." I don't agree with the rationale, but it's a bit less WTF of you. Still not getting the massive fuzzies out of all that, though. | ||
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On February 16 2015 07:50 Hier wrote: Trfel: It only takes one other player to declare his or her support for the model to get people to support its use. I know how Bridges works and how to use it to get a town victory. I will always abide by its rules, but if you later decide it's not worth it by all means abandon it. | ||
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On February 17 2015 05:19 rsoultin wrote: I'm thinking that maybe I'm not making my reads as clear as I should, reading Hier's narrative. Is anyone else having trouble deciphering where I stand on my posts? I just went through your filter again, and you seem clear enough to me. But I think we do approach the game in quite a similar way, at least that's my gut. | ||
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On February 17 2015 05:24 Hier wrote: Now that I've started reading Tere's filter I've noticed that she does not have a case on me at all. She has taken rsoultin's route of "Your post is bad, Hier." No suggestion of intention, or a probable goal I might have as scum. This seems like an easy bandwagon to jump onto, scoring a free townie lynch. Ballsacks, I make my view of you pretty damn clear in the post explaining my vote, including specific posts I think are scummy, and have pointed out one of the items I think most problematic again very recently. It's hard not to see that as misrepresentation. I am trying to give you the opportunity to clear yourself but it's not going very well for me here. Are you going to answer my question? Also a bonus question, are you having fun here, it doesn't look like you are having fun? Final RFI - this might be how you are, it's possible. Can you please link your previous games at TL Mafia with alignment? I will go have a read through those filters but right now I'm not feeling a reason to move my vote. | ||
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On February 17 2015 05:48 Hier wrote: You voted for me in one post, and claimed that I could be a town player and that we need to look for counterwagons in your very next post. Sounds to me like even you thought your case against me was weak. That's called wanting to give someone the benefit of the doubt. If it makes you feel better, you are making me more confident on my scumread every time you post. Now are you going to answer my question? | ||
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A lot is based on tone. | ||
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On February 17 2015 05:17 Tere wrote: Out of interest, are you still intending to follow your Bridges strategy? (bold mine) ^ | ||
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On February 17 2015 05:48 Hier wrote: You voted for me in one post, and claimed that I could be a town player and that we need to look for counterwagons in your very next post. Sounds to me like even you thought your case against me was weak. Oh, and these questions, which I know you saw, since you replied to this post. | ||
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On February 17 2015 05:56 Hier wrote: Ok, ladies first. I'll be here when you post. Seriously dude? | ||
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I guess Hier doesn't want to defend himself | ||
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On February 17 2015 06:00 Hier wrote: This is a team game. It makes no difference if I get lynched, so long as town wins. As of right now you are formally ignoring my request. I guess that's just like the several questions you've ignored and the misrepresentations you've made of several people's reads. Oh, wait.... | ||
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On February 17 2015 06:06 Hier wrote: There is no avoiding me getting lynched, that has been established a long time ago. I am making last efforts for town to win once I'm gone. Okies, then you will be happy providing a last will and testament with cases, right? (Not understanding the way someone plays isn't a case )(FWIW this applies to me too, but if he's not going to supply any other evidence that his town game looks like this then I can't look at it) | ||
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Doesn't like your joke about being mafia the last time you posted a provocative entry post, Trfel, thinks it's mafia. Not sold on the Bridges plan. Initial reads here: + Show Spoiler + On February 15 2015 20:08 ElyAs wrote: Actually, I'm gonna elaborate on this. Although I don't like Trfel's opening, he is clearly trying to start discussions so I can't scumread him for that. I'm just gonna keep this in mind for later, but not gonna vote for him day 1. Shining posted a bit and disappeared, his last post was hinting towards "I'm gonna post more later", I expect you to do it. Until then nullread Rsoultin discussed with Trfel, then with jarjar, she is asking questions, which what I'd expect from town. jarjarbinks is sharing his insight on rsoultin's demand, but apart from that, not a lot of content. What do you think of Hier's plan ? Hier only posted his plan, and I've given my thoughts on that. Pokes the two inactives (my slot and Silver), pokes zlef for reads on Trfel and JarJar, Feels better about Trfel's entry, likes Rso's push on Hier. Some discomfort with reading Hier as town, pokes me when I show up. Case and vote on Hier here: + Show Spoiler + On February 16 2015 23:45 ElyAs wrote: I kinda agree with you on that post zlefin, and it's not the only post where I feel Hier is almost trying to confuse us. Hier, I think this is inconsistent with the fact that you proposed a plan based on "eliminating chaos". I understand that you're saying "I don't want to create unnecessary discussion", and that is consistent with your thought process, but I still have trouble following you on some posts. (post for reference) Plus as other players said, you were only talking about your plan and your scumread on rsoultin, half justified by "She is next on my list" and "She has null reads". Later, you said "Null reads are bad and counter productive". I disagree on that, because it promotes more effort from the person that is painted as null. If I don't have clear scumreads, I'm gonna analyze my null reads first. I do agree that saying "I've got a nullread on an inactive" is not constructive, but on active players, It is. (post for reference) Now, you said you were going to focus on somebody else, I look forward to this. But until then, ##vote Hier A lot of what he's saying there I agree with. He does post his slight worry about it being a mislynch later but we've all gone through that I think. He's not been back in the thread since Hier showed back up. On the basis of that I wouldn't lynch him over Hier. | ||
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On February 17 2015 05:55 Hier wrote: In turn, your innocence fades with each of yours. Why don't you convince me that you are town, and I will answer your question (which you'll have to repost). Well, jarjar, this is what I've got, it's not really a question, is it. It kinda bugs me that Hier's repeatedly refused to answer questions even when reposted, that's not town helpful at all IMO. But on the basis that it might be helpful for you also, I can have a stab. I'm reaching out and trying to engage with as many people as possible. On Day 1 locked townreads are very hard but it's important for me to reach out and try to understand people and see if we can work together. I wouldn't call it town block, but a lot of my initial work goes on understanding tone and getting the feel for how people play - even more important when I have no meta and you are all unknowns IMO. I've read through the thread to catch up and I've gone through all the filters and posted my thoughts on them (I am feeling better about you BTW) I've considered whether or not I am tunnelling (I don't think I am!). I've asked Hier to come back into the thread and talk to us rather than tunnelling on my scumread. I've asked Hier for alternate evidence as to playstyle so I can triangulate with known town in case he's just rubbing me up the wrong way and it's a playstyle clash. I've considered the cases for the alternate wagons and thought of alternatives. I just don't like any of them more than where I have my vote right now. Would anything else be helpful for you? Same question for Hier? | ||
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On February 17 2015 06:35 jarjarbinks wrote: It doesn't hurt to answer his stuff first does it? Done. | ||
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On February 17 2015 06:41 Hier wrote: I've noted that rsoultin's play could be attributed to a few minor mistakes, all conglomerating to form a potential scum vibe, with a viable agenda. Tere, on the other hand, I don't think I've seen a more obvious scum play. OMGUS much? Right, I've played your game, now answer your questions. A full clear read on all participants would be awesome. You have time, and, as you say, it's in the interests of town that you be clear. | ||
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BRB while I collect post. | ||
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On February 17 2015 07:10 Tere wrote: Hi, the Shining, how you doin'? (I'm reading a game on another site atm but checking back and forth) | ||
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On February 17 2015 07:25 Hier wrote: This was weak, and contradictory. The very first line of your very first game-related post was you voting to have me lynched. You did not try and "reach out to me" and "engage" with me, as you have put it. You came in as scum, saw a town player having a lot of votes, and auto-voted. It's really that simple. I have said you were a scumread for me, and, as per your request to clarify, I have explained why; it has partially to do with your case against me. To you that's tunnelling. This is at least the second time you are hiding behind the word "playstyle". Anything that seems amiss about your play you attribute to your personal playstyle, thinking it successfully defends against accusations. But, as promised, I will answer your question you wanted answered at the time of the agreement: Yes, I have always intended to use the Bridges method, after having pointed out that insubordination is part of its intentionally limiting design. Naturally, being the only person to oblige by its rules is meaningless, because the Bridges is meant to be a play method, not an explicit set of rules each individual is meant to follow. Dude, you are my scumread, and I posted first in to put thoughts down having read the 15 pages or whatever it was. It's quite clear from my post above that my motivation is to engage most with my townreads initially. If you don't like that play, I really don't care to be honest. I think you've been given ample opportunity to reach out and attempt to engage, I certainly feel I have reached out to you to bring you back in, and all I see for it is OMGUS, refusal to answer requestions, and blatent misrepresentation of other people. I see you are also claiming you are going to hang on to your method regardless of any town consensus on perceived utility. The only reason I can see for this is to get out of doing any other reads. No likey. You can try answering the other stuff now if you like. Including whether you are having fun. I asked it for a reason. | ||
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![[image loading]](http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z408/majere616/GIFs/tumblr_llo4bzU2LP1qbbc6wo1_500.gif) | ||
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(BRB while I upload it to my own photobucket) | ||
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If not, guess I'll work on a different method of record - beginning to see why filter skimming is the quickest route in this format. | ||
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She needs to do some work tomorrow though. | ||
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Plus it might have given a meta along with his filter if he'd been willing to work with me and point me to some games to understand him better. But he doesn't want to do that either. I will lynch the miserable if no other information, basically. But yeah, I think he's scum based on his defensiveness as well as the cases I've already laid out. I figure everyone has the wherewithal to actually read filters, and people actually seem to do that here, which is great. I skim and paraphrase in part so I can look back and see where my own head is at at a particular point in time and give my take at that point. If they bug you, don't read them  | ||
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On February 17 2015 08:24 kitaman27 wrote: Clicking the number sign in the top right of the post seems to be the quickest way (it will show up in the browser url without performing a redirect), Not sure if that is the post link you were referring to. Thanks, that helps | ||
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On February 17 2015 08:51 rsoultin wrote: Looks like Hier did vote Tere o.0 I didn't notice when that happened though. You posted this On February 17 2015 08:09 rsoultin wrote: Yeah, I'm feeling the meh on Hier myself. I think he's most likely mafia based on today's play, but almost everything he's done I can see from frustrated, tunneled town. I think the main reason I'm fine keeping the lynch where it is...is he claimed to be trying to help town (while martyring on the lynch situation), but I"m not seeing the reads or analysis that would do that. He also seems to be leaning more toward Tere as scum but isn't voting her...he should be trying to push her lynch and leading the way with it. He posted his vote 12 mins later. On February 17 2015 08:17 Hier wrote: ##unvote ##vote Tere | ||
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![[image loading]](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-B3Irobbzslo/UsLHMP7SvGI/AAAAAAAAPpQ/bhfhDq6WX7Q/s1600/drilling-F5.gif) | ||
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On February 17 2015 09:09 jarjarbinks wrote: Sorry mods! Hope you play again Hier lol I'm going to take a break. I'm going to eat then sleep, too. Hier, echoing this. Can always discuss post game | ||
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The Shining, Silverarte, zlefin and ElyAs, I'd particularly like to hear from you. (Yes I know ElyAs is in France. Shut up). Actually, I'd like to know everyone's top two scum picks right now. Cases would be awesome Sleep tight! xx | ||
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/390080-tl-mafia-database ctrl-F for the person whose filters you want to find. Having read Hier's other two VT games, I don't know if it would have helped any though. One was very short, the other filter read a lot more agreeable to me. (n.b. Hier, you could try proposing the Bridges idea as a playtest in the forum thread if you really want to try it out, perhaps? TL Mafia plays, like the Diplomacy thread?) Anyway, I am hoping some of you awesome people with evenings left will post thoughts in the thread. Back in a few hours | ||
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On February 17 2015 09:31 Tere wrote: It would be awesome if the non Euros posted some reflections (and insomniac Euros). The Shining, Silverarte, zlefin and ElyAs, I'd particularly like to hear from you. (Yes I know ElyAs is in France. Shut up). Actually, I'd like to know everyone's top two scum picks right now. Cases would be awesome Sleep tight! xx Morning! Glorious day and I am going to make the most of it for a few hours, back well before daybreak. In the meantime, it's pretty important to me that this be answered. Right choices are important | ||
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If you had two bullets, who would you shoot right now to kill scum? | ||
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On February 17 2015 10:12 Trfel wrote: One thing I'm thinking right now is that players who weren't really liking the Hier lynch are perhaps more likely to be scum. Knowing that Hier is in fact town, they could have been distancing themselves from the lynch by already knowing its result. A player who initially showed support for the lynch but later retracted this support would probably be the most suspicious. I know that this category includes me, and that's fine. Obviously it isn't foolproof, but I will keep it in mind when I look through what happened. I'm also going to be looking for people whose activity/scumhunting waned after we seemed set on a Hier lynch, since those people are more likely to be mafia. OK, reading through post lynch. I went to bed almost straight after, FWIW. With the first point, personally, I feel you are stretching a little there. I don't have an issue with indecision, and don't consider it a scum tell. It's very towny to be indecisive and change your reads and backtrack - I do it all the time. Yes, there's reasons that scum do it too, and distancing is one of them, but I wouldn't charge full pelt down the rabbit hole here. | ||
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On February 17 2015 11:02 Trfel wrote: What does this mean? Cross-post above, naturally? If so, can someone please explain this to the weak-minded Trfel? Yup, that's exactly what I meant - will have been because someone crossposted a WOT somewhere with me. | ||
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On February 17 2015 12:57 Trfel wrote: Tere
Looks like a healthy dose of town paranoia to me. That's not necessarily a bad thing, since I teased you about it before and you feel confident you can work through it Finally, a few thoughts to Tere (if she is in fact town). + Show Spoiler + Tere. You're obviously a capable mafia player, and you have been entertaining and enthusiastic so far. I like this a lot. But for all of your experience, your reads seem simple, as if you are stating reads that feel natural and easy, as opposed to actually trying to determine someone's alignment, which is much harder. I hope you can see where I am coming from. At this point, it's not paranoia, I am voicing suspicions and I expect you to take me seriously and answer them. I have had a tendency in the past to drown in the information, and digging through for every little thing is a great way to succumb to conf bias. Hopefully you feel I've answered stuff about. Feel free to ask me more, but por favour, perhaps not in an enormous casewall? It's easy to read initially but a pain to answer | ||
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On February 17 2015 13:27 Silverarte wrote: Hmm, ok. So I'm going to start posting this stuff up as I get my thoughts in order (and hopefully without random copy/paste cut offs!) Let's see. I'll post up thoughts on Tere first! (Then Tere, I'll give you my thoughts for everyone since I did see you asked for that as well as Trfel. Also, by the way? HILARIOUS gifs! Loved coming back to those.) ALright, so back to the read on Tere here. -Jump on the bandwagon with Hier. Later, seems relatively unaffected considering all the effort placed here. Note, I'm not going to stare sideways too much for that one with Hier. That was a lynch gone bad, or so it felt to me with the way Hier was reacting. -Scumread list definitely is skewed to the most experienced players at the top (I did peek at your post Trfel before popping this up - darn you for being faster than me this round!), but I feel Zlefin may not be a bad read where she placed him. I think at this point, I'd really like to see what Tere has to say here. -I think my biggest issue where Tere is, really is in the communication with Hier, the scum reading and then yes, the counter wagon that was met with little to no attempts. But, this could be attributed to tunneling. I just think a lot of effort went into this here, with little attempts to other things she said. It does come off as contradicting itself. I agree with suspicion here, but I'm not sure Tere is an immediate lynch. Like I said, I'd really like to see what Tere has to say and go from there. I'm suspicious, but I some of the others catch my eye a bit more. I'm not all that unconvinced that you are on the wrong track, Trfel. Silver, I've just responded to Trfel's ginormous wall of spoilertext. Could you have a look at that and then maybe we can chat about any points you still need covered? Can you walk me through where your read of zlef is right now? And give me the two people you'd shoot if you had bullets? Cheers | ||
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On February 17 2015 13:51 Trfel wrote: Ah, just realized I forgot to add something to my case. It's not very important, but I'll tack it on here anyway. Tere didn't post her own reflections, in fact she seemed to avoid doing so. Why does she want everyone to respond and post their top two scumreads, without doing anything herself? I understand what rsoultin did early in the game, when nothing was happening, it made sense. But now, if you want to get discussion and reads, the best way to do it is to go investigate people and post your findings. Not to ask for reads without sharing your own insight. That is what is known in the business as going to bed, mate. I'm used to 24/12 turnarounds and 48/24 is definitely better. Why do you think I want everyone to post their top two scumreads? (you don't have to answer if you don't want to, but I definitely want those scumreads ) | ||
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On February 17 2015 14:12 Silverarte wrote: Quick notes: It looks like your table change for Trf and Silver since last time you posted it. What did they say/do that made you give them a point? I'm not sure, I'd have to look back through my own filter, at least for trf's case. I probably did it in response to something someone said, in which case I probably said something in thread about that, at least to agree with their concern. For silver, I'm just unsatisfied with his late posting, his explanation is reasonable, and could be the case, but I still don't like it. I was waiting to hear his explanations for not posting real life day 1 before dinging him a point (especially since until he posted, I thought he was gonna get replaced).[/QUOTE] Ten hour day and a date afterwards my friend! Go ahead and ding me for it, but I SO regret nothing! =D (1 am and we still weren't done talking philosophy. SO much fun. Also...lots of food. Mmm....) Thoughts/reads on people: The Shining: Posting content when arriving, and I can totally understand limited access here. That said, I'm still looking at the previous case where it was pointed out that The Shining did react defensive pretty quickly. At least he was honest about his Sheeping, for all he had a case on Zlefin. Suspicious of you man! But, not suspicious enough to push you at the moment. =P ElyAs: I'd really like to see more from Ely here. We go from case on Hier, to not being sold on the Lynch, back to the case on Hier, then a case on Zlefin. The only real content here are those cases and the rest of his posts don't have a lot of subtance. Ely is another person I'm waiting to see more from. (More to come! Yay filters!) [/QUOTE] Silver, could you get back to us with the more to come, please? | ||
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On February 17 2015 22:10 jarjarbinks wrote: Hey guys. Might be out till probably an hour or two before EOD with work. I think there is some things to look at here and will go through them when I get home. Send me some questions you want answered in the meantime. People I'm suspicious are from the votes would generally be Trfel, Elyas, and Silver. I am also suspicious of Tere for being voted on by Hier. Those are the first four filters I'm reading when I get home. Feel free to ask me questions if you are suspicious of me. Hi Jarjar, can you give me the two people you would shoot right now if you had two bullets? Thanks (this is not an indication of suspicion, you are reading OK to me. But I'd like an answer to that question.) | ||
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How do you think your plus and minus system is working out for you now? I like that you are tallying where the points are coming from now, it makes it easier to see your thought processes and I appreciate that. | ||
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There's an extremely good town related reason why someone might want to get a town consensus on scum reads during the night phase, and it's not that hard to figure out. Just saying Anyway, out to this bloody boring meeting. Back later. | ||
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On February 18 2015 00:20 rsoultin wrote: Firstly, if you're hinting at what I believe you're hinting at, Tere, use your best judgment and your coach. You don't need everyone else's reads to do it. Put on those big girl pants xP And give your own reads, cause you know how this confirmation bias stuff works, and you're feeding into it right now. Zlefin...let's try something, okay? Would you like to play a game with me? Lol, JJB will probably recognize this game. Oh, I don't need those reads, believe me. I'm very interested in people's reactions at me putting myself up as tasty Day 2 lynchbait though | ||
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You are just going to have to go with me here until then. I'm trying a thing. I saw it work quite well for someone in a recent game. | ||
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I'll post a full will and testament before nightfall, just in case, never fear. | ||
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Ta muchly. | ||
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On February 18 2015 02:23 ElyAs wrote: Got some time for this ! Reacting to the current train of thought, rsoultin, do you think jjb has started changing his playstyle to include more traditional reads and playstyle analysis ? Or is he really playing differently and more carefully than normal ? I intend to share my gameplan, I'm reading some filters right now. Hi ElyAs! If you had two bullets for scum now, who would you use them on and why? | ||
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On February 18 2015 02:09 Trfel wrote: The database is not updated frequently, unfortunately. It's more effective to view someone's profile to find their previous games. It appears that her only previous game was Newbie Mini Mafia LX. She was the town cop. Got it, that's helpful, thanks. | ||
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Actually that's more than helpful, since it has more than half the current game in it! | ||
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Trfel, have you rolled scum yet anywhere? | ||
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I will expand on that, never fear.I saw Jarjar will only be back about an hour before daybreak. I would very much like to hear from the Shining and ElyAs soon. | ||
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This works in my favour, as I will be veeery useful to town should I survive the night. More revealed after daybreak Still waiting on Jarjar and the Shining to weigh in | ||
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Terry, or Tehreh, I don't really mind. It's short for an old web handle, and it just stuck. | ||
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(n.b. the Student Mafia game is actually a game I read all the way through when shopping this site, so I've read both that way and filter diving. I read fast and hard when reading meta rather than obsessing and meeting a wall of information overload, so it's mainly a tonal read, which should be no surprise to anyone right now)This is where my head is at, towny to scummy. Towny Tere I'm the towniest town who ever towned, so pfft! rsoultin I am still liking her relaxed approach. Reading the other game where she is town, the filter flow is very very similar. There might be confbias there because in some ways her approach is quite similar to mine, but I am comfortable with her and happy to work with her. Trfel - I am still OK with a towny read on Trfel. I thought his push and case building on me was good, and his response to my response was also nice and relaxed. I like that he's holding back from a hard scumpush on me despite reservations and that he's still quite comfortable to reach out and engage with me. I had a read through his town and scum filters and this filter reads to me far more like his town filter than his scum one. His scum one was all about attempting to find lynch targets (read anyone else but him, lol, at least on a skim through), his conftown filter and this current filter feel much more like trying to solve the puzzle. I am happy to work with him. Leaning town, don't lynch for now Jarjarbinks. Jarjar still has a free and easy quality I like in his posts - plus to a certain extent I am giving my townread rsoultin's opinion on her brother some credence. Looking at his filter from when he was town before, there's quite a few similarities - the main difference is less emphasis on probability, which I see if anything as town positive - an attempt to change play to be more understandable to others based on given feedback. I think he could reach out a little more but overall I'm liking what I am seeing here. zlefin: As you can see, zlefin has gone up several notches in my estimation. I feel that he is trying to modify his play to make it more understandable to others and is taking care now to explain his points system. I feel he is working towards the goal of solving the game. I liked that he was comfortable stepping up to me and giving his reads, that's a relaxed stance that I would not expect from newbie scum in their first game despite the coaching support. There's lots of little tells that have made me feel better about him in the last few hours that have felt unforced. Silverarte: I feel quite a bit better about her having read her Cop first game - I feel there's enough similarities with her availability and posting style to calm any qualms about that being an excuse and skating. When she's had the opportunity to contribute I feel she has done so in a town positive way. Lynchpool for tomorrow: OK, here's where my two bullets would go: ElyAs: - I really liked what zlefin said about his filter feeling empty, I think that's a really good way to phrase it. He's focussed on what now could I think be seen as the two easy mislynch targets, but given himself room to back away if needed. Very little of what he has saying has been impactful for me. This is a filter I will be looking hard at tomorrow, if I have the chance. The Shining: If I had but one bullet, it would go here. I disliked his intro, and, while I thought there were a few positive posts day 1, I felt his defensive post looked, well, defensive. His response to Trfel's case on him looked a bit better but I wouldn't town read him for it, scum need to survive, town don't. I've seen very little else from him that has stuck in my mind. He moved his vote very late to sheep... someone? He's contributed almost nothing in the night phase. I would be looking hard at him tomorrow. Anyway, I need to take a nap, and might not be back before daybreak, but that's OK, I've concluded enough for what I need to do this evening | ||
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Night night. Bedwards I go, it was a late night last night. | ||
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Important point: IF ANYONE IS THINKING OF CLAIMING BASED ON WHAT I AM DOING PLEASE DON'T UNTIL I HAVE HAD A CHANCE TO TYPE ALL THIS UP K THANKS First off, vote analysis Day 1: Hier wagon: rsoul's first on with a decent yolo wagon start. Looked towny at the time, and lo, so she was. Silverarte's next on, after a succession of prodding posts at Hier about his lack of reads. The progression to the vote looks very unforced and natural to me, and town points I think. Have a look for yourself: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=15#294 ElyAs and I are next on, almost at the same time - if you look I reference his vote post in passing on my own, as I saw it whilst preparing my own post. ElyAs posts what looks very much like a placeholder vote on Hier - his main points being his confusing language, also picked up on at that point by zlefin, and some concern that the model is sowing chaos not spreading it. He says he will revisit once Hier starts looking at somebody else. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=16#301 This doesn't really happen, most of the rest of his filter till EOD is saying he doesn't like the vote but not really offering counterwagons. Tere: I'm next up. My main bones of contention with Hier is not his model per se, but his insistence that he will stick to it regardless, an easy thing to hide behind for scum, and his lack of willingness to provide reads. While I indicate the need for a counterwagon, I'm reasonably confident in my scumread, particularly when he comes back into thread and doesn't start being helpful. I stay on him till EOD. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=16#307 Trfel starts off more ambivalent on Hier, moving to a flash of irritation with him at his lack of reads here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=13#250, with a bit more followup here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=14#276 He pops down his vote on Hier after quite a lot of angst about mislynching and lack of counterwagons before popping a placeholder vote on Hier in case he isn't back at deadline, torturing himself about it until Nightfall. The flow of it all plus my more general read on him look like angsting town to me. zlefin's next. Completely new player, remember? His initial lynchpool based on his plus/ minus system is jarjar, hier, silver (for inactivity), and trfel. He thinks he should lynch trfel for info. Wonky reasoning IMO but new player. Note he says he's giving my slot a free pass until N1. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=15#290 He leans more to voting Hier later on http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=18#347. Later posts about trfel indicate that he's still thinking about lynching in terms of lynching for information - this isn't a scumtell to me, just a new player tell. (@zlefin it's not always a horribad idea in larger games IMO, but in a 7 v 2 game you are struggling with having minimal mislynches). He's moving towards voting for Hier here but aware it's a vote that doesn't contribute much and is probing as to what would give better information: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=22#436 - a couple of folk have found that scummy I think, but I actually find that reaching out quite towny. Finally votes Hier as he needs sleep. All in all I think that looks OK for a new player, I am not seeing the scummy in that. The Shining: pushes a fairly weak read in zlefin a little here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=10#183, asks why no-one is responding to it. There's a defensive post that he and zlef couldn't be scumbuddies here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=13#242 then lays a vote on him for what I see as fairly weak reasons here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=13#245. He unvotes when he returns to thread, mainly concerning himself with a defence against Trfel's case, then votes Hier at the last minute, saying he's sheeping his strongest townread, later clarified as rsoul. Weaksauce. OK - I think the people on that wagon who look like town are rsoul (flipped), Silverarte, Trfel, and zlefin. I know I am town, although clearly some people have some sort of problem with me jumping straight in with a vote and rationale on Hier. I think a case based on that is quite lame, if I'm honest - I was reading the game anyway, and I received the request to sub in at 4.30 a.m. my time, had a few hours that I used to reread and think through my initial reactions, and was simply waiting until I received my PM to place my main scumread. I would also point out that I was highly unlikely to be the Day 1 lynch, I'd already been given a pass by one person in the thread, and it would have been easy as pie as scum to say in the thread "hi guyz, sorry I can't catch up in the next few hours, gl have fun see you N1" and get a free pass. Charging in and putting oneself in the midst of the fray with less than 9 hours to go before nightfall doesn't play to a scum wincon, and I honestly don't know what to say to you if you think it does. Putting myself aside, the two people I think have weaker voting behaviour there are ElyAs (a placeholder vote which he never gets back to really) and The Shining (weak push on a new player that's easy meat, late move to Hier saying he's sheeping his main wagon). Really dude? Really? (Please also note the The Shining says rsoultin is his main townread here when thinking about the NK, also). zlefin's wagon: Poor lonely Jarjar! He says zlef needs to do a bit more here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=12#223, there's a couple more brief mentions that he wants to see more reads and then he probes zlef for answers and tries to reach out to him here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=12#239. He seems to feel a bit better about him here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=20#385. He doesn't like that he's got a -2 in zlef's points system (seems very personality indicative for jarjar given he's a numbers guy) then votes for zlef giving case here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=20#399. That looks like a decent case from a jarjar perspective, I can totally grok that he's not into tonal reads given his very different approach. He registers some discomfort with the size of Hier's wagon, indicates a willingness to shift if needed. He restates his position, which looks decent again from his perspective http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=28#550 - I particularly like his discomfort at being the lonely person on the wagon.OK, all of that looks very towny to me - fits his play and his previous town game to a T, and I really understand the mental progression here. I can't mindmeld with jarjar as he plays such a different way to me, but I can understand how this makes sense from the perspective of a town jarjar. Conclusion: From all that, the most town unfriendly votes for me are ElyAs and The Shining. | ||
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It will become clear I'm serious about this when I get to my suggestion as to what we do today in a bit. Onwards. | ||
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Rsoultin was killed by a Minecraft Creeper. I've never watched South Park (Shut up, I know, lol) and I can't really determine much flavour to help us see if it's the scum kill or a vig but in the absence of a vig claim (and a vig on rsoul would have been bonkers IMO) I think we go with it being the scum kill. Doesn't look like TL Mafia uses much flavour analysis to help with newbie games anyway, it's more just a bit of fun. (BTW, I think it's hilarious that all the Vanilla Towns are Kenny, well played :D) I'm actually not going to say too much about this as I don't particularly want to get bogged down with it - NKs can generate immense amounts of wifom. Reasons that rsoultin might have been the NK. 1. The simplest and most obvious one - rsoultin was I think reading the most towny to pretty much all of us apart from Hier. Certainly Hier's attempt at a wagon got absolutely no traction. Occam's would suggest that, and it basically gives us no lean on scum. Interestingly The Shining does make it clear that she's his strongest townread and sheeps her. 2. Someone in rsoultin's friendship group is scared of her sussing them out. This would appear to be a smaller group of jarjarbinks, Silverarte and The Shining. I haven't gone back and looked at her filter in depth yet, but from memory the only one of that group she expressed doubt on was the Shining. 3. Rsoul caught other scum and it was a fearkill. Unlikely, I don't remember other strong reads from her if I'm honest. Her will was posted very late so scum wouldn't have had time to react. I can't recall the timing requirements for night actions offhand but I imagine there's a set time beforehand they have to be in by. 4. Scum want to push for a lynch on me today, and Rsoul was my strongest supporter. It's possible, but if so I really don't care. Why will become apparent when I post today's suggested plan. I did note The Shining's push against Trfel as being the likely source of the NK and thought that was very interesting. I don't really feel the need to get into that right now, save to say that I think Trfel's defence of that holds water. Interesting that The Shining pushed it though. So it's 1 or 2 for me. Not much info to glean from that IMO. It's worth a look back at rsoul's filter if you are unsure. I may do that later. | ||
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Onwards. | ||
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First off, I am not claiming anything right now, and don't intend to as yet, as claiming my role would be detrimental to town. If that generates into a bunch of meaningless WIFOM that kills the thread and nothing will get done until you stop yelling at me I will, but I can assure you that outing my role won't be town helpful and I won't do that unless forced to. Important point repeated again: IF ANYONE IS THINKING OF CLAIMING BASED ON WHAT I AM DOING PLEASE DON'T. Claim for your own reasons, for sure, but don't claim because of my activities. I will, however, answer the question on why I mixed things up in nightchat and poked everyone for their two scumreads. 1. The easy bit first. Hi, I'm Tere. My meta this game is super aggro town, if you don't believe me now, you will on my flip. Scum are susceptible to WIFOM too. I love annoying scum. Hi scum! 2. I've been accused of not scumhunting. Well, for me this is some scumhunting activity. Scum really don't like to be tied down to decisive positions, in general. I'm almost less bothered by the actual answer than the attitude towards giving an answer. To me a major town tell is a relaxed position and a willingness to give reads and be flexible about them. There's a freedom and spontaneity to playing town and giving opinions that isn't there with scum, as the wincon is so different. Town can play offensive, scum, of necessity, need to have a defensive element to them. What I'm looking for here is a relaxed approach to giving opinions. Scum have to watch being caught out. Town don't need to do that. (n.b. if anyone who is town lynches me based on the terribad reason that Hier placed a vote on me, I am going to laugh at you in post game. Dead town don't gain powers of oracle infallibility, and Hier's proven misread on rsoultin should demonstrate that). So, what did I find out, and what do I think about it? (Here's where my play starts, with my current lynchpool at the time. I plop it in and head to bed, more or less: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=29#577. I push it again when I get up here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=32#623) zlefin: Tere and Jarjar http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=32#628 I really like this response, it comes very quickly, only 20 mins after I poke him directly seeing him in thread, and feels very unforced. Town points to zlefin here. His poking at me about WTF I am doing feels OK too: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=32#637 silverarte: Tere and zlefin. Silver feels relaxed in the way she produces these options, and posts a decent rebuttal of why she doesn't want to be asked. It doesn't feel defensive or forced. This looks OK here. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=33#649 I like her asking why not one bullet a bit less, as the results show, I have good reasons for asking for two reads apart from there being two scum less, and just one read wouldn't have given me anywhere as near as much information. But it's not enough for me to see that as a scumtell. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=36#715 Trfel: No answer - Trfel starts out by expressing confusion at WTF I am doing and why I hadn't done it myself here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=31#614 (as an aside, please don't scumread me for being asleep fairly soon after day and night ends that end at midnight my time, that would be lovely). He then posts his discomfort and thinks I am fishing in order that I can place the kills (because he's seen Artanis do this as mafia) here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=33#642. He scumreads me a little more strongly for this here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=33#648. There's some form of impenetrable chat with rsoultin about a point on an observation board somewhere, which Trfel will need to explain if he's convinced that whatever is on that board is relevant, but after further thought he seems to discount it. His response to me saying he really doesn't want to play looks OK, though, calm, measured - he's not lost down a rabbit hole somewhere. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=35#687 He never answers but hislast will and testament puts lynchpool at Tere, ElyAs, Silverarte (maybe jarjar) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=38#749 On the face of it the refusal looks bad but I think the way he handles it looks OK. He's clearly worrying about some game I have no meta for so meh. I can't see why it would be so OMG critical to get two names out for scum and certainly I wouldn't need to do so to place a NK. It's not inherently scummy, he's just got his knickers in a twist about something. rsoultin: No answer - she grasps what I am doing I think, tells me to put my big girl pants on I really liked the relaxed tone from her, and lo, she flips town as the nightkill. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=34#661 Also, sod off with the deliberately condescending, lady N.B. rsoultin puts ElyAs as her top scumread in her farewell post and I for one, would be happy to oblige her with that ElyAs: Tere and zlefin http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=36#711 . I don't really like this as much - he's deliberately distancing himself while giving the reads and does so further when I point out immediately after that I was voting and posting at basically the same point as him on the bandwagon. Tere: The Shining and ElyAs. I get bored with waiting on The Shining and post my WOT of reads here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=37#723 The Shining: Tere and ElyAs. Comes straight in with an attack on me and flat out refuses to divulge top two scumreads until after EON. Not massively friendly. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=37#725. He eventually gives two picks after rsoultin probes him for it here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=37#736. I have to say I really don't like his reentry into the thread, his general defensiveness, his attacks on Trfel in particular. I think rsoultin has a genuine point about him Beetlejuicing and anyone who has also played scum with him before should consider her POV. No likey. Jarjarbinks: ElyAs and Tere: Jarjar hops on and quite quickly gives a promise he'd get to the shot question before EON, that looks very unforced and relaxed to me. He writes a very brief shot confirm just before EON http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=38#747. He posts thoughts about ElyAs after daybreak here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=38#759 and about me here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=39#771 . The timing of this stuff looks fine and the cases look relaxed. Town points from me, I also liked his presence in the thread in general after daybreak. Conclusion as to scumteam? Well, its pretty obvious to me - The Shining and ElyAs look the worst coming out of all of that. Since that also meshes with what I've felt from other parts of their filter I am comfortable with that. Other conclusion? Well, it's pretty obvious that everybody finds me scummy. I find this laughable, as as far as I am concerned I am happily playing aggro town, and the fact that everybody finds me scummy should be a decent clue that perhaps I am not. However, it is fine. I have a cunning plan for this. More shortly. | ||
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
On February 18 2015 12:44 Trfel wrote: 1. It's not WIFOM because Hier was lynched, not night killed. Given the nature of the lynch, the best you can take from this is that Hier was scumreading Tere. There's not much else to be said here. 2. It's probably best for townies not to respond to weak pokes. If townies are too caught up in defending every single suspicion someone raises against them, not only does that detract from their own scumhunting, but it distracts the entire thread. On the contrary, I actually felt that she was a bit too responsive to my suspicions of her when I admitted they were unfounded in the exact same post. Since End of Day, many people have expressed suspicions of Tere, and she has just said that all will be clear after the Day post. Tere's next few posts will probably be extremely crucial in reading her. Tere, I am very much awaiting an explanation for your posting during the night. You've been hinting at something. Time to reveal. Anyone there who wants to chat? Trfel, if you are town, can you please not bloody do this, it's very irritating. My response to you yesterday probably took an hour of my time by the time I'd fucked about with the formatting to make it readable. You made it very clear in your initial post that you wanted a response from me, I took the time and trouble to craft it, and your response is to scumread me for it further. I don't have the time to play this game 24/7, and behaving like this if you are town makes me not want to work with you. That's compounded by you simply saying "That's not good enough", laying a lame vote on me and sodding off just now. I'm now up to 4 hours time spent in the thread post daybreak, with more to come. If this is what you are going to do, I don't see why I should put the effort in, quite frankly, particularly given I'm being universally scumread right now. I should just let you guys mislynch me, AFK, and troll you in the deadboard. Not impressed right now. | ||
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United Kingdom225 Posts
On February 19 2015 00:23 Trfel wrote: I'm sorry, I thought you were done (misinterpreted what you were saying, I guess). You're still posting reasoning/explanations. Carry on then. I said I was posting up a bunch of WOTs in the first sentence, not impressed with you right now. | ||
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United Kingdom225 Posts
On February 19 2015 00:28 Half the Sky wrote: Normally I don't do this, but for the sake of information for everyone, I am going to step in here and clarify now for everyone. I have clarified in my veteran game (link) that my storylines are for flavour purposes only and no interpretation of my storyline will or should ever determine anyone's alignment. I deliberately write as such to prevent any WIFOM and any other pro-flavour host from what I've seen does the same. This is the case here as it would be in a normal veteran game. The only time I ever reveal or even write about players personally in a storyline is when they are getting flipped (from lynch, NK, etc). That's what I suspected, Half the Sky, but thanks for clarifying (It's still hilarious that VT are Kennies, though :D) | ||
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United Kingdom225 Posts
Right. Hi. I am Tere, and everyone in the game is currently finding me scummy. This should be a clue that perhaps I am not, but hey. I would rarely if ever recommend a mislynch for information, but this might be a point (take note, zlefin ) at which it might be appropriate. If I am causing this amount of WIFOM, I am not going to be NKed, and I am going to be poison at Lylo. However, I know I am town, and I am not going to simply roll over and die. If you mislynch me, you had better be sure you get the maximum amount of impact and information out of it. If I see a wagon today that looks like Tere (6), someone else (1) with no sensible thought or analysis, I am going to start punching puppies, posting sarcastic gifs and lolcats and will righteously call the 4 remaining townies out on the deadboard. Being lametown is lame. Don't be lametown.Town needs to not be lazy and you are trying to catch two scum. You need two sensible thought out and thought through counterwagons, one a direct counterwagon to me, the other for shenannieing onto as and when the counterwagon fakeclaims if scum. I want to see everyone doing the thought experiment that I am telling the truth and am town, and following it through. Please note I do not intend to make any last minute blue claims. If you want to vote for me, that's fine, too, but I want to see a REAL reason for it, not something daft like Hier's vote placement, and I want to see a backup plan as to the next two people in your lynchpool. If you mislynch me today, and a NK goes through tonight, you have one more mislynch by my reckoning, and then into save by power role. So you need to make this day count, regardless. It's probably clear as to where I want my counterwagon to be, one of ElyAs and The Shining. I almost don't want to post anything more about that right now to minimise WIFOM. You can read my read list from N1 but for now I am going to leave it there. Good luck. | ||
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So you need to make this day count, guys. | ||
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You'd better make it good, Silver... Also I was just about to say that I wasn't ready to weigh in mightily, given that only Trfel, ElyAs and zlefin had posted since my mega WOT, and I wanted to hear what others had to say clean, without giving cues. I guess I will let Silver collect herself and post. In the meantime I did have a few thoughts on what's gone on since my WOTs. I'll work on those. | ||
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On February 19 2015 00:23 Trfel wrote: I'm sorry, I thought you were done (misinterpreted what you were saying, I guess). You're still posting reasoning/explanations. Carry on then. I was going to honeybadger you for this, given I'd said there was plenty more to come, but then you apologised later and said you missed that sentence, so I am chalking this up to sleepy Trfel and giving you the benefit of the doubt for the moment. These things happen, I've misread enough as town that I'm not going to crucify you for it. null read. Carry on. | ||
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
On February 19 2015 00:55 Trfel wrote:+ Show Spoiler + On February 19 2015 00:29 Tere wrote: Before I get on to a suggestion for today's play, I just want to respond briefly to what I've bolded here: Trfel, if you are town, can you please not bloody do this, it's very irritating. My response to you yesterday probably took an hour of my time by the time I'd fucked about with the formatting to make it readable. You made it very clear in your initial post that you wanted a response from me, I took the time and trouble to craft it, and your response is to scumread me for it further. I don't have the time to play this game 24/7, and behaving like this if you are town makes me not want to work with you. That's compounded by you simply saying "That's not good enough", laying a lame vote on me and sodding off just now. I'm now up to 4 hours time spent in the thread post daybreak, with more to come. If this is what you are going to do, I don't see why I should put the effort in, quite frankly, particularly given I'm being universally scumread right now. I should just let you guys mislynch me, AFK, and troll you in the deadboard. Not impressed right now. 1. First of all, I apologize for the formatting being difficult. I tried to put it in a formatting that was easy to read. In the future, if anyone wants to respond to me, they may feel free to put it in whatever formatting is easiest for them, I am more than happy to read a response in potentially poor formatting. That was not my intention at all. I do appreciate you spending a lot of time on this game, for the record, I've been spending a lot of time on it too. It took me over an hour to type the post in question as well. As to why I voted you, I had maybe two minutes before I had to leave for class. I read your posts, saw night kill analysis and voting analysis (which I considered weak*), and no explanation of your strange behavior as of late. Therefore, I placed a vote for you. Note that this vote was pressure, not a firm vote, you can sort of tell that by the sentence in parentheses underneath the vote. I missed the sentences where you said that you were not done. Bad play by me? Yes. Uncalled for? Yes. Can we move on? I hope so. Ironically, my intention was exactly the same as what you suggested (and for basically the same reasons). 2. *I believe that the voting analysis and night kill analysis you provided are weak (not your fault, they are quite good for the little material to work with). However, what I did not realize is that you were providing an extremely comprehensive thought process including analysis of everything possible, which naturally would include a voting analysis and a night kill analysis, however strong/weak. Therefore, the voting and night kill analysis make perfect sense and are appreciated. I will not lynch for information. I don't think that is a good idea at all. And yes, if we mislynch today, we are on LYLO, and I do not like that prospect. 1. I didn't have a problem with the post format as a concept, and agree it's a decent way to format a case for others to read so it's not terrifying. What would have made it much easier to answer is if you'd numbered the points rather than bulleted them, and I'd recommend something like that going forward, because it really was a PITA to navigate all those tags. This goes for everyone, BTW - if you want someone to respond to a complex case, please make it easy for them. A less motivated and stubborn person than myself might have just AFKed the post, which wouldn't have been town positive. 2. I think you are discrediting voting analysis and NK analysis if you discard them on principle. One of the reasons I did the votecount was that I saw Eden on this site in one of the recent games I read (it could have been Imperial, sicklucker was scum, IamRobik was cop) use it to excellent effect to catch scum Susperia and scum rt....y? I agree that there is not much that is fantastic to go on here. My main points of takeaway from the vote analysis, in case they got lost in the WOT, was that I townread jarjarbinks despite him being and outlier, and scumread The Shining for the lazy sheep onto hier citing rsoul.. I read Silver's early vote as being towny, but I can equally see the cases made for her plopping a vote on an easy lynch, so that moves back to a null for me. My main takeaway from the N1 analysis - don't WIFOM over it overly much - the main point of interest was The Shining's push on you immediately after the flip. It's not a scumread per se. I just want it noted. Does that help? | ||
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
On February 19 2015 01:27 ElyAs wrote: You know what Tere ? I'm sold on you being town, and I really hope I'm right. When I red your posts and Trfel's snap vote, I skipped a beat because I was starting to townread you and saw one of my townreads vote for you. I'm kinda relieved by Trfel's follow-up. I know I'm not in the best of lights right now, and I'm gonna try to step up my game to find a good case, I owe it to jarjar and Trfel because their posts gave me a little bit of confidence. I got an hour to allocate to this game right now and I'll try to use it well. (It is really a time consuming game !) This post feels as towny as fuck to me. It's enough to move him off my autolynch pile - before this I was going to place a vote as the best option. It comes from a real place of emotion that is horribly hard to fake, IMO. Moving Elyas up my town - scum pile towards town. Lurkers beware | ||
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
On February 19 2015 01:47 zlefin wrote: Tere's long set of texts looks fairly towny. It feels like a strong attempt to make people believe she's town. And it does read towny, lots of info, good analysis, appropriate level of outrage at prospect of being lynched. My one concern is that it kinda feels like trying to get the benefit of blueclaiming without actually blueclaiming. The only point I would make as a new player is don't expend too much mental energy over this. I have told people in ALLCAPS not to claim as a result of anything I am doing, I certainly don't expect people to not lynch me over this. Ignore any claims you see in my behaviour and carry on. Seriously, ignore any WIFOM over if I am a special or not | ||
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On February 19 2015 04:09 Trfel wrote: This will be a more detailed response to Tere's recent posts. (or, since I napped for so long, not so recent any more) First, I note that the amount of effort that Tere put into these posts is probably the greatest single time effort I have ever seen in a mafia game. I almost townread her for effort alone, though without knowing her character, that isn't safe, unfortunately. However, the amount of effort put in is extremely encouraging. Tere's comment. I could have an extended rant about why this is really annoying, but I won't. It feels like a patronising "good girl, well done" or something. Trfel, if this is unintentional, you need to work on your wording a bit. I generally think that voting analysis (at least when basically everyone votes for one obvious person) and night kill analysis are weak. I'm guessing that it would be easily possible to spin the voting analysis to have a completely different set of implicated players (not implying that this is what Tere did). Keep in mind that I have never actually performed or analyzed someone else's voting analysis.... Tere's comment: OK, but you should see what Eden can do with vote analysis. I've gone into why the NK analysis is WIFOM. What's there is a yucky bandwagon, but we don't have much. Shutting it down isn't helpful. All the players here are smart. I am trusting that the town majority can make their own judgements I see the way that Silverarte voted as more null than town, and I feel that the way The Shining voted wasn't as terrible as Tere thinks. Tere's comment - I know you are townreading The Shining and disagree with that. I agree that seeing the early vote from Silverarte as an alternative is quite reasonable And I feel that ElyAs was actually the most proactive about looking into counterwagons. Tere's comment: I got a reasonable angst from him at the time so yeah. I don't know I'd describe him as proactive then, but his responses today have looked better. We need time to work out if it's a scramble away from a lazy lynch now I'm in honeybadger mode, or a real attempt to help. Right now we have that time. I suppose it's silly to try and judge my own play, but I am more inclined to think that the way I voted for Hier looks more scummy than towny. Though that could be completely wrong. And naturally, I think that the rest of my play is more than towny enough to make up for it. Tere's comment: Oh STFU with your own personal wifom. Stop making your suicide sword. Seriously. Kill scum. I have no sympathy for wangst. Chop chop. (Yes, I'm not very sympathetic. deal with it.) On to Tere's analysis of our collective scumreads. I'm not. But you had time to post an F5 gif and another post or two, you could have expressed a little disappointment at the flip. It's a moot point, since I'm accepting your explanation, and now that I think about it more, scum tend to feel guilty and sorry for the mislynch. Not showing emotion is not really alignment indicative. Tere's comment, good, because I'm not going to apologise for killing a non helpful town player in the absence of an attractive counterwagon. I've outlined why before. You are going to have to live with that. I have already offered to talk to Hier post game, because I'm not actually a bitch I also disagree with some of Tere's reasoning for the "two kills" analysis. Nice people aren't always town, and mean people aren't always mafia. For example, while The Shining's filter does contain several suspicious things, it also contains several things that look towny. So I'm not confident in scumreading him just for being angry. Tere's comment, this is a horribad simplification of this analysis, and is setting off all sorts of alarm bells, particularly after yesterday's attempt at saying I was only townreading experienced people. If you are town, townreading me, and not getting all my internal cognitions, get out of my way and accept I have a different process, as I've done with jarjar (and would probably have worked out with Hier had he shown an interest at all in reaching out, but hey ho). I am not typing out every nuance of my internal dialogues, I spent a ton of time I didn't have today working to a town win, and just, yeah. Get out of my way if we have the same wincon. If you can't trust me, and had a decent read of Rso, I'll remind you Rso grokked me, (although of course dead players aren't infallible). If you are scum, fuck you In addition to this, Tere's posting has this tone that I run into every so often, not only convincing me that the player posting is the most towny player in the history of mafia, but also making me feel miserable for ever doubting their towniness. With an experienced conversationalist like Tere, logic tells me to be careful with this tone read. Tere's comment: Hi, Town Paranoia, meet Trfel. Trfel, meet Town Paranoia. Come back from this rabbit hole please I'm not willing to completely clear Tere. But she has gone through an incredible effort, and much of what she says makes sense (though given the size of the posts, there weren't that many profound insights, though because her posts were formatted to talk about everything that is acceptable, I suppose). Tere's comment, WTF is up with this negging? I'm a little worried that Tere's posts make her look better than I feel the analysis warrants, but on the whole, I'm mostly happy to accept Tere as town. Especially if Tere leads us to a scum lynch. If she leads a mislynch, then I will have to take another serious look at this again.... Tere's comment. I think I made it clear my lynchpool at start of day. ElyAs is looking a bit better now, which means I need to look to a POE candidate. I still can't see for the life of me why a bunch of you are townreading The Shining, right now he is textbook defensive scum to me. The best next POE candidate for me would be Silver, because I think there are merits to both you and ElyAs' cases. I would lynch within that pool, but given the cloud of WIFOM. I am not going to lead a wagon right now. Deal with it. I want people to make their own decisions. There's over half the day left and I want town aligned players to be proactive, not responsive First off, this was such a weird thing for me to read. It gave me the weirdest lady negative boner, is the best way to explain it. It was kind of like going on a date with this guy who had read one of those pick up artists books about how you have to neg your date. That's the best way to explain it. I guess I have to preface this with two things. a) Trfel, if you are scum, much props to you for a Machievellian attempt at manipulation, and also, fuck you the outcome I think more likely is b) Trfel, if you are town, I spent a long long time just going through the basics this morning, and you have to give me a bit of credit, and I haven't gone into any of the depths of the nuances of my reads. Stop simplifying things, you did that weird thing where you insisted that I was only town reading experienced folk, and now I am townreading people who are nice to me. Give me a bit of credit and accept I haven't gone into all the passages of my brain and laid them out for you. Don't be that weird negging guy. If you won't, don't make me honeybadger you. You won't like it. More in the mega quote. Please read it. | ||
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
On February 19 2015 04:15 Trfel wrote: I've been more seriously considering the possibility of Silverarte being scum as well. You beat me to it. But please, Tere is not, never has been, and probably never will be an easy lynch target. High post count players are rarely easy lynch targets, even if they aren't as sensible and persuasive as Tere is. Dude, as of start of day I was the sole common denominator on everyone's scum lists. That's like the definition of lynchable right there. Right now I think scum are not posting, and are trying to work out what to do now their easy lynches of zlef and myself aren't looking so lynchable. That's why I want to pull back. I love giving people rope to hang themselves | ||
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
On February 19 2015 06:19 zlefin wrote: I don't know why, but reading your last two posts Tere, makes me feel a bit more suspicious rather than less. Hopefully you're number of posts doesn't change as I'm typing this. I actually like this, it feels very honest, I am not scumreading you for it | ||
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
On February 19 2015 06:26 zlefin wrote: You may hate unflipped association analysis Trfel, I'd say it's weak, but not utterly useless. Mostly I'd expect associations to be unclear, but the fewer people there are left in the pool, the more it becomes possible to maybe say something. Even if I could just say a certain pair of people aren't both mafia, that'd still be useful. It also represents another way of looking at things; and looking at things from a different angle can be helpful, as long as you don't read too much into it. I've tried unflipped associations, and my honest view is that can lead you into a WIFOM rabbithole of horribleness. A mountainous game I played in has left particular scars there. Try by all means. A light analysis might help (looking at your two main scum leads for interactions, for example). If you find yourself losing sleep over it, stop, is my best advice | ||
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Looking at his filter, it's so markedly different from his last scum game, and so full of genuine wangst about the correct lynch, I'm finding it hard to do anything but town read him. If he is scum, well done, good game, and fuck you, basically I would be happy to lose to him, which is where I generally put my strong townreads | ||
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I think scum is in two out of three of those right now. Discuss. | ||
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It's owl time: Dear scum: | ||
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On February 19 2015 07:00 Silverarte wrote: You are wanting to discuss this with me? Or exempting me, but with everyone else? (Also...BBL?) Be Back Later. As in, you've been gone over an hour. Get on with it. You are moving down my lynch pile. | ||
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
On February 19 2015 07:02 Tere wrote: Be Back Later. As in, you've been gone over an hour. Get on with it. You are moving down my lynch pile. In fairness, when I posted this, I hadn't, for whatever reason had notification of Silverarte's longer post beforehand. I will go read that. | ||
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On February 19 2015 06:53 Silverarte wrote: Ok, so I backtracked and caught up and it looks like the most pressing thing right now is to clear my name. So if I'm missing questions, please feel free to point them out and I'll get right on that. Now first off, I see I wasn't clear about the two bullet question I had. I meant for that to be directed at Tere, who at the time, was not giving us an answer for anything when I posted that. My main hope had been that perhaps I'd be able to one answer from her if not the two. I was obviously not clear and hadn't noticed that at the time. Now, as for the cases on Tere and Zlefin: -You've stated it yourself Trfel. This is a newbie game. For all Tere has mountains of experience elsewhere, Zlefin does not and Tere still had more to come. Moreso, it was N1 with all of us metaphorically twiddling our thumbs to wait for the results. We had, as of then, over two more days to figure out who our next lynch was be. With D2 around the corner, my thought was we had time to figure out just what Tere was doing and where Zlefin was going to pop up as. (Speaking of, good job Zle. You stepped up the game on those explanations when you're assigning points). Now, I agreed with your case. I could have copy/pasted it over or pull over additional information (and am more than happy to break it down), but as I said, we had more time to figure it out. -I have asked a couple times if anyone's had questions for me. While people have interacted with me, I've not seen many questions until Tere joined us and did that odd play with the bullets. On that note, if anyone has other questions for me now, please feel free to ask. -If we review where my votes have been. Tere pointed out the way things worked out with Hier and I've explained my thought processes with my previous scum reads. That said, I felt I've been consistent with my reads. Is this enough to save me this round? Not sure! I'll just have to keep playing and prove I'm town. (Also, sidenote. Tere? You so made me want to go watch the Beetlejuice movie now.) Your contibution is noted. That is all I wish to say at this time, | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + On February 19 2015 07:03 zlefin wrote: I've for the most part (aside from the couple posts mentioned a short while ago) liked Tere's responses of late, so I'm giving her a town point; here's where my point totals are now: Trfel 0/2 Shining 1/1 rsoultin 1/1 dead town N1 elyas -1/1 jarjar -1/3 tere -1/3 hier 0/2 dead town D1 silver -1/1 as a reminder, not all points area created equal, it simply means I at one time or another had a feel one way or another. Some feels are stronger than others, and I haven't yet figured out a system for letting points decay over time, or if I even should have points decay over time. I'm going to put this in another format: Townish: Shining Neutral: Trfel, Jarjar, tere Scummish: elyas, silver Question for everyone: In terms of the above 3 categories (townish, neutral, or scummish) how would you classify each other remaining player? If you could format it similarly to above, so it's easier to read and compare them, please do so. Jarjar, you seem to like data and tables, would having that data from each player be helpful to you, given that they're merely statements and not votes? So, question: Question for everyone: In terms of the above 3 categories (townish, neutral, or scummish) how would you classify each other remaining player? I would put a mental category above that in. if you are town, you know you are 100% town. I don't think there's any issue in reminding people of that. Town: Tere Townish: Trfel, Jarjar, zlefin Neutral: ElyAs, Scummish: Silverarte, The Shining If you want to contrast it to my end of N1 reads, ElyAs has moved up slightly, SilverArte has moved down. I've read the two cases against her. There are other factors, I want to wait for others to post before digging in to that. I think you / zlefin are consistently trying to find his own way newbie, I feel that's a stronger townread. I am slightly less comfy with Trfel after that weird neggy post, but I am waiting for him to respond, so I haven't moved him yet. He was my strongest townread beforehand. Where my head currently is anyway. Anyone got any burning questions? I need to sleep soonish | ||
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On February 19 2015 07:31 The Shining wrote: OK, Tere. I have a really big problem with you in that on the surface, your posts look townie, some of your reads and points are original, and you put a lot of effort into your formatting and large WOTs. However, seeing as I'm now your only lynch target, you can see why I'm a bit suspicious of you. I have a few questions to start you with. ElyAs and myself have been at the bottom of your list for a while. Now you've suddenly bumped him up to town. You also did the same with Zlefin. So who is my latest scum partner for today? You just gonna keep throwing names out there until someone doesn't defend themselves? And pinging on my defensiveness in my posts. I don't see how this is alignment indicative in any way. If you're saying only scum is defensive, the opposite of that is town just rolls right over and dies without putting up a fight. Am I the only one that sees how stupid that sounds? "Scum needs to survive, town doesn't." Really? REALLY? If town doesn't survive, how the hell does town win? I'm pretty sure dead town can't scumhunt. You posted a vote analysis in which every voter except the lynched and JJB were on the wagon. Although I do like the analysis in and of itself, its not necessarily accurate. First off, you misrepresent my push on Zlefin as anything other than a pressure vote, which I've already stated it was. At that time, Zlefin had little to no presence in the thread. You also conveniently made it sound like I just dropped my vote and addressed Trfel's case on me. If you had actually read my defense, my vote and the reasoning for dropping it was explained in that same response to Trfel. You also conveniently throw in a one-liner about my top townread being RSoultin, IRT the night kill, as if that has some sort of significance. Its been mentioned countless times how RSo was all but confirmed town and townread by basically everyone. Why does my read of her have any more significance than anyone else? Meh, WOT. Honestly I've been unmotivated this game. It happens any time someone goes AFK or punks out cuz of RNG and gets replaced. Last time(and the only time on TL) it happened to me was Scott replacing a lurker scum!Gumdrop in the last Newbie Mini. Limited experiences with replacements, who all replace unwilling scum members, is giving me a really bad bias here. If you're town, you're misguided. If you're scum, and I seem to be the only one realistically entertaining this possibility, WP. I'll go ahead and dive Silver, Zlef and ElyAs again for some insight before my mislynch today. Quite frankly, I don't even care if it happens. Dear town, I could do a point by point right now, but the day is young. It's just another defensive post by The Shining as far as I'm concerned. The rest of you have at it. I know what I want to say, but scum hate having nothing to make a case against. I'll leave them hanging for a while. This is my strongest scumread. If you need me to explain why tomorrow, I'll do it. In the meantime, lame post is lame. Try scumhunting. Oh wait, you can't. Nighty night. The two people I would shoot right now are The Shining and Silverarte. | ||
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Or wanna gladiate? That would be awesome. I would be totally up for gladiating <3 Sweet dreams... | ||
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Double fuck yous if by some miracle you aren't scum. If you are, apologise for that in end game. | ||
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I don't mind you making the play at all, but if it's a play you need to man the fuck up and explain it when it ends. Don't be a dickhead. | ||
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On February 19 2015 07:49 The Shining wrote: Language. That's just rude. I'll take the doubles, though, lol. Can't wait. Don't see whose character or skill I was attacking, either. Simply stating in the only 2 Newbie games I've played, there have been replacements. It has ruined my experience, personally, so I will not participate in one again. Have to stick to Student/non-Newbie games. Its just a statistic. A lot of salt coming from you. Guilt getting to you? No, I'll troll you 6 ways to Sunday if you leg it though. If you are town, go find scum, sensibly. I don't accept AFKs for lame reasons. Chop chop. Don't make me bring out my probably not safe for work gifs relating to that. Nobody will be the winner | ||
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Sleeping now nn town and scum xx | ||
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(what I need from you is to reach out to us. I think I get where you are coming from but it's liking parsing Earth to Martian. If you can't speak your language to talk to me, pretend I'm your sister, that was very insightful, not perfect but a reasonable base to start from) I'll get a cup of coffee. You are my second strongest townread right now so what do you need from me? | ||
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I don't do ad homimem. I will righteously burn a lame argument with fire, but I don't ad hominmem a person. If anyone feels I am doing that they can either a) call me out in thread, in which case I apologise b) I am open to PMs but it's a no PM game, if you want to do that I am cool with that but it's really up to the mods. Or set up a QT and me and the mods can all hang in there and we can discuss. Or save it up and we can do in postgame. I genuinely am not a honeybadger, I really don't want anyone to quit this game because of anything I am doing. My door is open, OK? (I make most excellent macaroons, I can bring them to the post game party ) | ||
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Seriously, guys, life is too short. Let's have fun together. I don't want anyone to have sadmafia, OK? sadmafia is not cool] back to your regular programming. | ||
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On February 19 2015 08:30 jarjarbinks wrote: Your filter is ridicously long since last night lol which is definatley a good thing. Hard for scum to BS for an entire day lol I think you ended up on silver and shining. Silver hasn't posted yet, and you got in a piss argument. Do you see them as a possible scumteam? Two lurkers seems off for a scumteam, but it is possible. IF they can't be a scumteam, would you pick one over the other? I'm thinking silver over Shining, although both of their behaviors are similar to the games I have played with them in. Do you feel like you might be tunneling Shining? I think you've gotten muddled up, both those people have posted since then. Silver has posted a WOT that I don't feel is strong. The Shining has aggroed on me. If I am honest I wouldn't say either of them were lurkers, per se, I wouldn't say I'm tunnelling Shining right now. I haven't constructed a case yet - I am leaving that quite deliberately. As the person who entered Day 2 with the most scum reads, I shouldn't be generating cases right now. What I want to do now is sleep and give people room to post for 8-12 hours. I have opinions, but I would rather people came to independent conclusions. It's easy for scum to refute conclusions, less easy to drive their own agenda. Having said that, I'd love a loose read from you once you've combed through everything. You are a town read, but your thought processes are somewhat alien to me. I need to understand where you are coming from more I think. Night night | ||
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On February 19 2015 08:35 jarjarbinks wrote: Shining you aren't actually quitting right? We've already had 1 replacement. Think about the other players in this game. I don't believe he is quitting. | ||
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On February 19 2015 08:39 The Shining wrote: I'm still posting. I'm still active. I'm diving filters right now, just like I said I would in my last post. If I find something more damning than the fact that Tere is now towning my supposed scum partner and one of her top scumreads(ElyAs) who just happened to be one of my top scumreads and basically picking off low hanging fruit one by one to see who is the easiest mislynch(Zlefin, Ely, me in rapid succession, I just happened to be the only one willing to call her out on her scattershot suspicions), then I'll share it. so are you cool to gladiate me tomorrow then? I think it will be 1 for 1. That hurts scum. I know I am town. Want to play? Are you that confident? | ||
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Otherwise, straw poll, everyone want me to gladiate The Shining? (this doesn't let you off my homework of find two other scum candidates apart from me. Just saying ) | ||
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Sleep now | ||
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That confident of your scumread? | ||
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On February 19 2015 09:00 Silverarte wrote: Silver is still lurking like she said she would be. She's also just working on what she said she would be. Silver, that's incredibly lame. Woman up. | ||
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On February 19 2015 09:07 The Shining wrote: I'm reading "I'm willing to win the game for scum right now" if you are in fact town. I already stated earlier I don't care about me being mislynched anymore. My vote is on you. If town is onboard, they vote with me. Or they vote against me. When I flip town, they'll want to lynch you until you manage to WOT your way out of it and win for scum. I'll even go first, if that's what you want. Of course, town votes decide it. I just need the townies here to promise me they will reevaluate what little I have been able to give them after I flip. OK. Either you are obvscum or completely misguided town at this point. I'm kinda insulted if you can read my play in any way as throwing the game for scum. Seriously. Something something (insert strong language as appropriate). If you are town, and that is what you are thinking and you think scum has won the argument, you need to wake up, stop sulking, get back to base , and stop sulking. Because, regardless of your perception, I'm on your side. Really. If your wincon is to win with town, I'm on your side. You don't have to trust me with this, but I need you to have a mode that can consider it... i'm town, and reaching out to you here. I think you are a smart and capable guy, I've read your town games, you are town to be proud of associating with. Don't check out. I'm on your side, and reaching out to you here. Don't lock down, OK? You can analyse me and decide I'm full of shit, but don't check out right now. I want town to win too. Come talk to me. You don't have to trust me right now (and I do need to sleep, it's bedtime here) but I want you to take some time out, take a deep breath, and if you are town, and want town to win, you need to come talk to me, OK? Because you are either locking down caught scum or passionate town without a lock and I have NFI right now. Just talk to me. I'm not Circe. There's no game mechanic to turn you into a pig. What harm can there be, right? Time out. I need to sleep. Talk to me, OK? | ||
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On February 19 2015 09:10 Trfel wrote: I'm glad to see that there were several pages while I was gone. I'm still reading, but I wanted to drop in and say this. Tere, do you mind if I don't respond to your post? My impression of what you are asking me to do is exactly what I am attempting to do. I feel like I am having a hard time communicating my true intent with you (probably my fault, not yours), so I'm not sure that responding would help anything. Though if you do want me to respond, of course I can do so, I'm just not sure that it would help with anything. Oh, and zlefin, I hope you won't mind if I don't list my reads like that, just because I don't like quantifying or categorizing my reads. But as of Page 44, Silverarte seems to be the best lynch. I don't mind if you don't respond right now. I'm talking. | ||
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On February 19 2015 09:13 Trfel wrote: Wait, we're only allowed to lynch Tere or The Shining? Do I get in a say in this? I think both are town. And I don't want to lynch town. I am just going to point out there is no mechanic in the original setup to cover this, now shush. | ||
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On February 19 2015 09:14 Trfel wrote: Please don't throw the game for the sake of argument and ego.... Hush now, he's either rage quit or pretended to rage quit or I'm not sure but i've been told off for swearing. Whatever alignment he is, I'll bet dollars to doughnuts he ain't quitting. And most of this is alignment neutral for me. If you have a meta on whether scum Shining would crumble against a strong defence, hit me with it, but right now I think it's a passionate person doing something passionate and it's not alignment indicatiive (and quite frankly, in a newbie game, I'd throw to the newbies if I had to. Not that I won't give them a run for a money if it's neutral (because an easy ride is boring )) | ||
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On February 19 2015 09:22 The Shining wrote: Something is off. Ely has an unwillingness to even consider the idea that his read on Tere might be wrong, whereas even now, I'm still weary I may mistakenly mislynch. Since you can't decide, you'll just go with scum since that's what your townread is going with, right? One of you is scum but you strong towning her so hard gives me pause. And I'd rather not get hung up on unflipped association. The Shining, I need to go to bed, I need to establish if you are taking your ball and going home or what. If it's not and for whatever reason that's a play, you can send people who are pissed off with me towards me, OK? The play is OK. I just need to sleep soon *shrug* There's a lot of time left in the day, to point out the obvious, you kids carry on. | ||
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Time out 10 hours, goodnight. | ||
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On February 19 2015 09:33 The Shining wrote: I posted a post before the one you quoted here asking you a question, would you mind answering it for me? I am talking to you. I may be proud and have an ego, etc, but I'm not trying to throw here. I'm not locked down. I'm filter diving like I said I would. Threw a question out at you, threw one out at ElyAs, expect more as I read and reread. Honestly, the interaction today pissed me off. But it also gave me back the motivation I lost from being in another game with a replacement. But...why are you trying to feed my ego so much? Lol. I have NFI if it's a real call to reason and look at things objectively, or scum in sheep's clothing? I seriously need to take a breather from you and reread you objectively when I get home tonight. If it makes you feel better, I got told off too - I think things got a little more heated than the mods would prefer for a newbie game. I use salty language when passionate, and I have absolutely not a problem with anyone telling me that's not OK. I see two people passionate about their wincon not necessarily talking to each other here. I'll be honest, when I came into this day I didn't trust you and I don't have a basis right now to trust you. But, if you have a town alignment, I can work with you. I am open to reaching out to you and understanding you and talking to you. That's not a trap. It's almost 1 am here and I have stayed up way too late the last couple of nights to play mafia. So I don't have much time. But I think you are a smart and perceptive guy, even from a skim, and I would ask you to take a step back, take a breather, let me get some rest. Take some time yourself. Let's talk tomorrow. If your wincon isn't incompatible with mine, we aren't enemies. Really we're not. I'll have a look for your question but genuinely I need to sleep. If I don't respond please don't think the worst and poke me. It will be fine. Tere. | ||
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As you wish. Let's just give everyone a breather and try to think the best of everyone for 12 hours or so? Sound a decent deal? | ||
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On February 19 2015 09:33 The Shining wrote: I posted a post before the one you quoted here asking you a question, would you mind answering it for me? I am talking to you. I may be proud and have an ego, etc, but I'm not trying to throw here. I'm not locked down. I'm filter diving like I said I would. Threw a question out at you, threw one out at ElyAs, expect more as I read and reread. Honestly, the interaction today pissed me off. But it also gave me back the motivation I lost from being in another game with a replacement. But...why are you trying to feed my ego so much? Lol. I have NFI if it's a real call to reason and look at things objectively, or scum in sheep's clothing? I seriously need to take a breather from you and reread you objectively when I get home tonight. If it's not obvious, I thought this interaction was very genuine. I want to reach out and work with this guy.... | ||
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On February 19 2015 09:45 The Shining wrote: Lmao the Circe thing made me lol. Tere, I guess I should've outright stated it but I didn't take any offense. Can I also point out I'm somewhat reminded of how RSo and Geript went at it in Student Mafia V? Scum really likes hanging back when these kinds of interactions happen. I want everyone's reactions, please. It's totally selfish, because it's 12.45 am and I've not had a proper sleep for 3 nights (shut up, Trfel, I'm still allowed to tease you) but I'd like a moratorium against righteous rage until midday at least? Seem fair? | ||
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On February 19 2015 09:45 Tere wrote: If it's not obvious, I thought this interaction was very genuine. I want to reach out and work with this guy.... The Shining, I've gone back for about 10 mins and I am not sure what you need me to answer. I want to answer you, I just don't know where it's coming from. Does that make sense? | ||
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On February 19 2015 09:49 Trfel wrote: A response to Tere (because zlefin asked for it, shrug) Note that I do not require a response if you do not choose to provide one. It is spoilered because I don't see it as being very important. + Show Spoiler + This post makes a lot of sense. I understand more at what you were getting at in your Walls of Text. Not directed towards me, but this is really nice to see. Now, this post. I hate adding responses inside quotes, so bear with me (if anyone is actually reading this). As to me being patronizing to Tere ("good girl, well done"), this is not intended in the slightest. Whether she is scum or town, I'm pretty sure that Tere is the most skilled player left in this game, and I have no right whatsoever to be condescending to her. My only intention was to acknowledge the effort and thank her for it, and say that I felt that it made rather good evidence for her being town. As for me judging my own play, I was not looking for sympathy, and my intention was not to talk about myself. I was saying that you townread me for something, and I didn't like your reasoning, while allowing for the possibility of an accurate tone read (because I am terrible at tone reads). I have already accepted that Tere and I think differently and work differently. I don't think that is a problem. As for simplifying your reads, you are right that that part of my post was horrid. I have no explanation. As for me not being confident in my tone read of Tere, I'm bad at tone reads, of course I'm not confident in it (that won't stop me from trying to use tone reads, though...). I guess it makes sense that you don't want to lead a wagon. I disagree, and think that you are good enough at this game that I think you ought to lead a wagon, but I understand what you are saying and I accept it. And no, I'm not scum. I am not 100% sure of your alignment, but I think you are town. Tagging this at the bottom because I'm not sure it deserves its own post. You already have my reaction, to me it seems like a town vs town argument. I'm not sure what I'm expected to comment on here. I posted the enormous wall of text, and then I wanted to see who talked to me about it. What I feel so far is this - the initial unforced interactions were myself, trfel, zfle and Elyas, after a time Silverarte showed and immediately aFKed, The Shining showed later, was adamant and I am trying to reach out to him. Jar jar looked great at start of day, not wighed in yet. | ||
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On February 19 2015 09:56 Trfel wrote: I'm going to trust Tere and not respond to Silverarte's post at this time, I suppose. But this part does require response. In the future, please don't do this. You can NEVER have too much time to work out a lynch (if you are town, I bet that an hour before the Day 2 lynch deadline you'll be wishing you had been more active at night). I have been told in the past by extremely reliable sources that town's best strategy is to continue scumhunting full steam at night. Yes, I am aware that some people disagree, but I currently feel that it is best to use the night to scumhunt as well. This, seriously don't do this if you are town aligned. The most unhelpful thing than can happen is random town shenannies at day end. Never support it. | ||
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On February 19 2015 10:00 The Shining wrote: Tere, this is what I was referring to. I can see Ely making this post from either alignment in a move to earn town cred, similar to what I thought you might be doing in talking to me like I'm a baby now. However, I'm going to actively talk to you right now and tomorrow when were both here before I pass anymore judgment on you. If you are reading me like I'm talking to you like a baby, you are reading me wrong. I respect you and your intelligence. However, I really need to go to bed. We can spar in the morning? Deal? | ||
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On February 19 2015 10:08 The Shining wrote: Just a heads up, my first post today up until about 6-8 hours from now are my most active times. I'm a night worker, mornings aren't my thing. But I'll def catch up with you as soon as I'm awake. I need to crash, but this brings up a really great point. There's a thing in the profile that can bring up a continent, that;s helpful as a baseline. Knowing the timezones is a bonus. | ||
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On February 19 2015 10:23 The Shining wrote: I'm EST. Work 3-11 PM EST Weds-Sun. Wake up at 1 PM, ready for work etc, usually here once I settle in at work. Itll be EoD tomorrow so I'll be early, barring any work emergencies. But that doesn't normally happen. Trfel, enjoy. I'll be here. If you don't mind me asking, what is it that you do? (I'm GMT, I run a tourism business and most of my work is work from home. Monday - Friday, weekends difficult.) | ||
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On February 19 2015 10:27 The Shining wrote: Tere, lol. If you post again, after another somewhat long gap in time, I'm seriously going to have to wonder why you couldn't answer my one question. out of spoons, I will if you repost it, sorry if I'm lametown but i need to sleep, nn | ||
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I drank too much last night, have an unhappy stomach and am fuzzy headed, but right now I kinda think I wanna do something which will probably bug the crap out of everybody. I kinda think I wanna ##vote Trfel. It's like this. There's a post in my filter where I respond to him and say he's like this weirdly negging boyfriend that's not giving me a lady boner. I just can't shake it, I really can't. It's really bothering me. I need everyone else to go look at Trfel's filter and see what they think. I might just be falling down the rabbit hole, but if so I need to step away from the edge. I need to take the car in for servicing and will be at least 8 or 9 hours. I won't be able to post but I will try and grab a coffee and do a full read and reset. | ||
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OK, well first off, I've done a full and complete reread, and I feel much better about things. I think we can win this, guys. As often happens when you do this, I've had a complete rethink on my reads. I'm not going to apologise for that, I think it's pretty normal if I'm honest. Here are my four townreads, I feel these are all strong townreads now: The Shining - Firstly, the Shining, apologies for swearing at you last night when you said you were going to quit, I was just really frustrated with you. Secondly, thank you for the fisticuffs, because a)yay, I get to say fisticuffs, and b)yay, it really helped me to sort you. The whole interaction we had then made me feel much much better about you, particularly your response to my gladiation challenge. Sorry I didn't answer your question last night, I was just very sleepy and really quite tipsy and was being dippit. To answer your question on my townread of ElyAs, I felt it came from a quite genuine place of emotion from him at the time, and I could really see the flow there. I also really liked his follow up with Silverarte later, which I'd read before responding to him as strong town, and had done a filter reread, so, while I guess I didn't say so at the time, my change of view was built up from more than just the one post. Does that make sense, do you need more from me? zlefin - looking back through his filter, on no account lynch this, this is newbie town trying to find his voice. Everything in his filter looks genuine and genuinely questioning, no ping for me at all. Jarjar - I might not understand Jarjar's read process, but all his interactions come strongly from a town perspective. I am reading him as strongly town and have been for quite some time. ElyAs - having gone back through his filter, I am far more comfortable with ElyAs in general. Now, here are my two scumreads. There is quite a lot of mental distance between the two lists for me. I feel there is a very good bet this is the scumteam. I'd say I am 95% sure, for those of you who like percentages. Silverarte - assistant scum, currently be bussed by obvscum Trfel in an attempt at towncred. Trfel - tank scum. Probably the Godfather, if I were to guess. I think this scum team really stacks up - there is clearly a more active scum around given the lack of obvscum in the quieter players, and it's not me and I don't believe it's the Shining, I have a strong townread on him now. If you do an associative read on these two it's also looking pretty likely. I am going to do a full case on the pair of them and a look at associative reads. This is going to be long and detailed and it is a lot of work so you have to bear with me for a couple of hours. I don't mind which we lynch in principle, but in practice I think it would be a lot better if we lynched Trfel. His flip will show Silverarte as scum pretty clearly I feel and will clear up all the WIFOM from his current bussing. I won't countenance lynching anyone from outside this lynchpool today. I do want the four of us to try to line up on one clear target in order that scum can't try and save themselves at the last minute. Pretty please? Back with some epic WOTs. | ||
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
On February 19 2015 07:34 Tere wrote: Question I've bolded is in the quote. Read the spoilers. + Show Spoiler + On February 19 2015 07:03 zlefin wrote: I've for the most part (aside from the couple posts mentioned a short while ago) liked Tere's responses of late, so I'm giving her a town point; here's where my point totals are now: Trfel 0/2 Shining 1/1 rsoultin 1/1 dead town N1 elyas -1/1 jarjar -1/3 tere -1/3 hier 0/2 dead town D1 silver -1/1 as a reminder, not all points area created equal, it simply means I at one time or another had a feel one way or another. Some feels are stronger than others, and I haven't yet figured out a system for letting points decay over time, or if I even should have points decay over time. I'm going to put this in another format: Townish: Shining Neutral: Trfel, Jarjar, tere Scummish: elyas, silver Question for everyone: In terms of the above 3 categories (townish, neutral, or scummish) how would you classify each other remaining player? If you could format it similarly to above, so it's easier to read and compare them, please do so. Jarjar, you seem to like data and tables, would having that data from each player be helpful to you, given that they're merely statements and not votes? So, question: Question for everyone: In terms of the above 3 categories (townish, neutral, or scummish) how would you classify each other remaining player? I would put a mental category above that in. if you are town, you know you are 100% town. I don't think there's any issue in reminding people of that. Town: Tere Townish: Trfel, Jarjar, zlefin Neutral: ElyAs, Scummish: Silverarte, The Shining If you want to contrast it to my end of N1 reads, ElyAs has moved up slightly, SilverArte has moved down. I've read the two cases against her. There are other factors, I want to wait for others to post before digging in to that. I think you / zlefin are consistently trying to find his own way newbie, I feel that's a stronger townread. I am slightly less comfy with Trfel after that weird neggy post, but I am waiting for him to respond, so I haven't moved him yet. He was my strongest townread beforehand. Where my head currently is anyway. Anyone got any burning questions? I need to sleep soonish quickly before I WOT. zlefin, here was my read you asked for from last night. Where I am after myreread is as follows: Town: Tere 95% Town: The Shining, zlefin, Jarjar, ElyAs 95% Scum: Silverarte, Trfel. I'd actually be willing to go higher than 95% I think. Nothing's a certainty, but I'm pretty damn certain. | ||
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
Lookit the little scum getting ready to work up another of his lame scumcases on me. Lookit the little scum again trying to neg my case by claiming it's going to just be based on associative reads when I said no such thing. Oh there will be a case on you, scum. You bet it. And I'll be drilling you hard. If necessary, I'll pull out every single scummy thing you've said and done in your filter, and I'll do it until you are dead. I smell your fear, scum. Trfel, I am calling you out - if you are so sure I am scum, Gladiate Meh! let's do this, I have fire in my belly. Now ignoring the thread to work on cases, until done. | ||
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
I'll out if the consensus from my townreads is that you want me to back to work | ||
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
Hey, Trfelscum, you conceding? Epic incoming WOT once I have put some bold in. | ||
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
I should be the first to say props to Trfel, he's tried very hard, and his scum game is much better than the one he linked to (which is, of course, why he was so happy to link it). I think the reason for this is pretty simple - this is a coached game, and, while I don't know what ObiWanShinobi's scum game is, I have read through one of Damdred's scum games, and he's this scary scary scum lord. Seriously. The guy is good, and Trfel is a smart player who will soak up all the coaching he can. From a out of game perspective, well done. From an ingame perspective, I am coming for you with a noose right now. I took 4 hours or so while waiting for my car to be serviced to read carefully through the entirety of the thread, because I think it's important to do that as well as filter dive in order to get the context. I got several things from this, the first being that I townread the four townies I have much more strongly. These are some of the tells and suspicious things I saw from Trfel. I am not going to quote every single thing, because his filter is enormous, but I will pick out some cases for each that hope explain my points. I strongly recommend everybody go read his filter with these points in mind, so you can make up your own mind regardless of what I am saying here. 1. The "hey guyz look how towny I am" case There's a whole bunch of little things that add up here. There are several "hey guyz lookit this towny post there's no way I'd do this as mafia" posts, for example, starting right out of the gate with http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=5#97. He's really careful to say how hard he's working and how he's staying up late etc. etc. rather than just doing it. Town don't need to tell town they are towny like that. Scum need to do that. The very bland "will and testament" N1 is another example - play see if you can actually understand his position on people to see what they mean (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=38#749). I also hate this post, it reeks of fake to me http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=38#755. I also saw this post as strange and rather suspicious. Why would a town Trfel ask that of rsoultin at night? That just looks like a scum trying to pick their nightkill http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=30#585 There is also this about how he's not bussing Silverarte, honest. Yeaaah. No. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=54#1065 On their own these things aren't particularly strong, but combined with the stuff below, I think it's worth considering. 2. The disappearing reads case Before you look at this, answer me this - could you, even now, after all of Trfel's filters, manage to say clearly what his scumreads are? There's an awful lot of talking and filter padding, but actually very little of substance. Almost every single "read" he makes is then ringed around with caveat after caveat, distancing behaviour that is not town compatible play. Townies are comfortable to give reads, they are fearless, they will never have to go back on their reads to push a lynch to ensure scum survival. You can pretty much look at any of Trfel's reads and see this nervousness, this distancing, this care to place cases and retract them. Look at his interaction and "scum read" on the Shining Day 1, for example, or pretty much any of his reads on me. Scum doesn't know who they need to have in their pocket and who to go for. There's a nervousness that carries with scum reads, and Trfel's reads have it in spades. When you look through his filter, you see lots of little pushes all over the place, but a great care to step away from them (leaving them available for later). It's a neat little trail of breadcrumbs to make sure he can build cases later when he needs to, with the notable exception of Silverarte, until he decides to bus her. Just look at his vote on Hier, vague handwringing about it being the wrong lynch, but absolutely no attempt to push a counterwagon himself, despite ample time to do so. He then scumreads ElyAs and myself for not finding a counterwagon when he did nothing about it himself, despite having plenty of time to put down other WOTs. He makes a vague suggestion of ElyAs and then sorta washes his hands of it http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=24#476. That's it. A bit like him trying to get me to lead the charge today, when he thought I had him as a locked townread. Very hands off. There's reams and reams of this stuff, so I am just going to pick a couple. They aren't hand picked, just the ones that I come to. rsoultin: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=12#236 The Shining: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=6#105, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=17#323 zlefin (I hate hate hate this one!) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=34#679 jarjar http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=35#681 and fake rsoul - oracle with bonus potshot at the Shining http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=39#770 - and this, he talks to jar for ages N1 and this is what he comes up with? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=40#798 3. The reaction to Tere trolling the scumteam case Hopefully it's clear by now from ElyAs' claim that I was winding up the scum team by softclaiming vig and / or veteran. Two reasons, one to try and draw the block if there was one away from any town specials that did exist, and secondly to force the scum team to come at me in the daytime, in case I really was the vet (now ElyAs has claimed it's clear there's no vet in the game). I'd have liked another night of trolling the scum team, but I guess I'm going to call it job done I also wanted the two picks to see reactions, and my analysis on that is here. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=41#820 Here's what I said on Trfel: "No answer - Trfel starts out by expressing confusion at WTF I am doing and why I hadn't done it myself here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=31#614 (as an aside, please don't scumread me for being asleep fairly soon after day and night ends that end at midnight my time, that would be lovely). He then posts his discomfort and thinks I am fishing in order that I can place the kills (because he's seen Artanis do this as mafia) here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=33#642. He scumreads me a little more strongly for this here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=33#648. There's some form of impenetrable chat with rsoultin about a point on an observation board somewhere, which Trfel will need to explain if he's convinced that whatever is on that board is relevant, but after further thought he seems to discount it. His response to me saying he really doesn't want to play looks OK, though, calm, measured - he's not lost down a rabbit hole somewhere (clearly I don't feel this now). http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=35#687 He never answers but his last will and testament puts lynchpool at Tere, ElyAs, Silverarte (maybe jarjar) Note the broad lynchpool, but with the potential to bus if he needs it.http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=38#749" The only thing I want to point out apart from that is that when rsoul said she knew what I was doing, he tried to fish to find out what it was, which didn't work http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=34#662. Classic blue fishing there, and a great scum tell. At the time it was a negative for me but I thought my townread on him outweighed it. Clearly I no longer feel that. Also note how hard he tries to push me to out straight out the gate earlier today. 4. The "negging boyfriend" case, a.k.a. I'm totally going to copyright negative ladyboner I think I hit the nail on the head in my post last night about my interactions with Trfel being a bit like being on a date with one of those weird negging guys who's read on of those pick up artist books. That post is here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=43#855. He's weird with me right out of the gate here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=18#343, and it raised a red flag for me at the time. It's not that he wants to know my experience level per se, it's more that he kinda drops in my comment from another TL Mafia thread like that, almost like he's trying to show I'm being dishonest and not revealing my experience level. It's weird. 5 mins later he's immediately on the attack on my reads http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=18#345, claiming they are based on mafia ability rather than alignment indicative information. If it was one post, it would be odd, but OK, but there's quite a few posts in his filter which he's quick to attack my reads in whatever way he can, if you look for them. A concerted attempt like this to dismiss and denigrate another player's reads isn't town aligned behaviour. Town should always keep an open mind, and you see in townies a respect for reads even if they don't understand them. I'm given no leeway at all here, and you see the discrediting time and time again. Trfel's been gunning for me out of the gate, while trying to keep my in his pocket while I'm townreading him. I think my negging boyfriend post is a good example, with it's nice people aren't town nasty people aren't mafia negging, but there are plenty of others in the filter. Look how keen he was to vote me out of the gate this morning, when I'm being scumread by everyone. The "I'm so careful, I'm such a good townie, look how slowly I work" Trfel missed that more was coming from me twice in my WOTs, once clearly at the beginning, once at the end? No. Scum slip there, buddy. Trfel's seen me as a threat since the start and has been working for me to be out since the word go. He probably shat his pants when I said I'd played in or read over 50 games. He wasn't expecting my giant WOT analysis and that wrongfooted him, although he was careful to work to discredit voting analysis, N1 analysis and my two pick analysis quickly. He was prepping to buddy me up, and I also wrongfooted him with scumreading him this morning, hence the complete silence in the thread today. That isn't a townie reaching out to understand another townie and work with them. That's a defensive scum reacting through fear. Contrast it, say, with the way The Shining and I played out last night during our fisticuffs if you want to see a tonal difference. His filter is obsessed with me, and it's not because he's scumreading me. He even flat out says he wishes I'd be the N1 kill http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=22#429, the am I a veteran am I a vig or not trolling must have been driving him up the wall. I expect the scumboard to be a good read 5. Connections to Silverarte. Associative reads are not particularly strong, that's one of the few true things that Trfel has said, but what really stood out to me about Trfel and Silverarte is that, until he decided to bus her, there's almost no actual interaction between them at all, I could only find two or three things on a readthrough, and none are probing each other, it's "Hiya, what do you think of X". It's like they are invisible to each other, although he's careful to lock down any discussion of the N1 kill as perhaps being related to any of rsoul's real life connections. There's a bit of Silverarte backing up his case on me, but I'll cover that in her case. That's it This push at me is very interesting though - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=50#983 - this is a push as to why I have Silverarte as scum AFTER he's written up his big ass bussing case on her. That pings. That's more than enough from me. Please all go and look at Trfel's filter, I think it's a slam dunk, I really do. I am completely happy to gladiate against him. Note he doesn't want to do that. Of course he doesn't. A 1 v 1 is terrible for scum, particularly with Silverarte already so exposed. | ||
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
On February 20 2015 06:06 Trfel wrote: If I were scum conceding, then the game would already be over. Town Trfel is conceding. Now why would a town Trfel even need to do that? Town isn't even in Lylo. You're just giving invalid reasons for throwing your hands in the air and stopping working. It's lame. | ||
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
On February 20 2015 06:15 The Shining wrote: Well, say I believe the Doc claim, right? That means I'm wrong on one of my reads. Ely goes from red to blue in my eyes. That forces me to look for another possible scum, as Tere can't work alone. Didn't Tere also bump Zlefin up a couple of notches on her town list? Defends his wanting to lynch Trfel for info as a Newbie play. Suspicious of him then bumps him up to new townie finding his voice once he says he'll give her slot a pass. Nice try. The Scum coaches are listed right in the intro posts. I have no idea whose your is or even if you have one, I have no idea what they have said to you, and I am not speculating on it. It's perfectly fine to say I respect scum Damdred's play, because he's good. Daam... I will, however, remove it if the GMs ask me too, of course. It's hardly a major part of the case, and I am perfectly happy it stands on its own merits. | ||
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
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United Kingdom225 Posts
On February 20 2015 06:29 The Shining wrote: Tere, you realize if Trfel flips town, you'll likely be gladiated anyway? And if your case is to be believed, plus your thoughts on Silver, you're saying our only 2 wagons are both scum? Yup, I am totally cool with that. Yes, I think they are both scumwagons. Trfel is hard budding Silverarte. He wasn't expecting me to come out gunning for him today, and thinks it will buy him towncred. | ||
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I'm not bothering to respond to Trfel's response. You know my read on him, it's up to the rest of you guys to evaluate things now. I'll just shit up the thread. Back in a bit, I want this out before end of Day in case there's a hiccup and I'm lynched. If I am, my last kill instructions are Trfel, then Silverarte. Trfel is obvscum and it will give you back one mislynch that way, although the only very slight question mark I had was ElyAs and he's non cc-ed blue. In bfore Silverarte CCs Doc. If she does, don't believe her. | ||
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
If you have managed to stalk me, well done, although that's a bit creepy. Actually it's really creepy :/ But that's also a flat out lie, and, if you want me too, guys, I will link you to a post I made when very frustrated with someone scum reading me that makes it quite clear how I hate playing mafia and thought I sucked at it. It's also a post that makes it clear I am stating this while I am playing vanilla town (it's from a mountainous). I can take a forum off ignore and fish for it if you guys really want it. Vanilla town is my favourite role. I still think Trfel and I should be gladiating. Why don't you want to gladiate, Trfel? Oh wait, it's because you are caught scum. | ||
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
I've caught Trfel in an out and out lie about my activity on other sites, and he's obscum, but she's his scum buddy. I'd rather kill him but I'm happy with either of them. As long as we lynch the other one tomorrow. | ||
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
http://mindromp.org/forum/showpost.php?p=215977&postcount=374 The most pertinent to this discussion is the first link: "I am a terrible scum player and hate being scum. The only two times I've been it I was genuinely bonkers busy (should have subbed out really) and got lynched for non-contribution and then the other time I was Don and no-one bloody read me and I got vigged or something. So yeah, if I was being pushed for a list of reads as scum I'd find it hard." Here's my flip: http://mindromp.org/forum/showpost.php?p=186940&postcount=549 Trfel is lying. | ||
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United Kingdom225 Posts
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United Kingdom225 Posts
On February 20 2015 07:50 jarjarbinks wrote: Wow... Trfel late defense is what i'd expect from scum Trfel with a chance to survive. I need to filter dive Trfel. I still have an hour right? Yup, just over an hour. I am eating but here, I will get my case out on Silver before EOD, but if I don't eat now I'll keel over. I am also grumpy for having to take that forum off ignore. Love the people, but playing mafia with them drives me potty. Also I still have scars from that damn mountainous game. | ||
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
Silverarte's filter is shorter and very much weaker. Much of her filter consists of excuses about lack of contribution and promises to do better. To be honest I lost the will to live even reading it just now, which is why this is just notes rather than a casey case. It's just so... nothing. She's barely even present, it feels like. She hops on early on Hier, setting it up here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=13#257, doing a bit of pushing, sheeping Trfel a little on the shining, then voting, then disappearing. Is clearly about end of day, but only hops on just after with this tonal clanger and another excuse. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=29#570. I didn't like this at all when she did it. The "oh noes, we mislynched (tee hee)" tone is a classic newb scum tell for me. There's a post about me which is basically following what Trfel's said here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=31#611 There's some very lacklustre posts following a filter dive and more FOS on me. A bit of a FOS on zlefin. She drops this clanger when she asks if she can just do one read - "Also, so far, what is everyone's top? Rather than two bullets, how about one?" of course that will be me. Attempting to lock things down so she doesn't expose herself. They were looking to push for a lynch on me D2 at this point I'm sure: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=36#715 Defensive post trying to "clear her name" is defensive. Town don't need to do this. Scum do. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=43#859 She then posts a wall of text about me, after some prompting, and talks about zlefin. Nobody else. That's what really strikes me - it's focussing on what probably looked like the safest lynches at the time. Very opportunistic. There's very little interaction with Trfel, but, like him, she focusses on pushing me. Yeah. She needs to die, but I'd rather kill Trfel We can kill her tomorrow. | ||
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United Kingdom225 Posts
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I may have to insist. | ||
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United Kingdom225 Posts
Jarjar, there's a thread showing very clearly that scum can pull off incredibly long filters and discussing town reading due to filter content size not working on the board, discussed very recently. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/477857-activity-and-town-play Look at the content, not the length. Trfel is lying about having found me saying I love playing mafia on other sites. I've caught him in the lie and have provided proof. He's obvscum. He's just trying to survive. | ||
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
On February 20 2015 08:42 The Shining wrote: OK Tere. If you believe both of your own cases, and believe your town read in me, I ask you to sheep me and vote Silver, since she is scum to you, as well. I feel Silver's flip will give us the most information. And if all 3 of us are town, I would rather have at least 2 of us here tomorrow, assuming one of us dies tonight. OK, sure. Can we kill Trfel tomorrow if I do it? | ||
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
I just know I have limited time to play D3 and if I'm not NKed, I want you guys to help me kill him. Deal? | ||
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United Kingdom225 Posts
##unvote ##vote Silverarte You guys need to come with me and kill Trfel tomorrow though, because he is the scummiest scum that ever scummed. We can kill his henchie first if you want though. | ||
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
On February 20 2015 08:51 ElyAs wrote: 10 minutes before EoD, damn. Tere, sorry but you claimed VT and not Vig ? Abort mission, lynch Silver. Yes, I'm claiming Vanilla Town. One who loves trolling scum. We can shenannie onto Silver, but you guys are giving me Trfel's head on a platter D3, regardless of whether I am alive or not. Or I will haunt you mercilessly from the deadboard. | ||
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Why would I even offer it as an option. Gladiating makes no sense for scum. | ||
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Look hard at Trfel's play in the last 24 hours. I'm going to bed. What I am proposing tomorrow, is that we agree to do a Gladiate. Me vs Trfel. http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Gladiator night night. | ||
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
On February 20 2015 09:13 The Shining wrote: Scum slip? Only scum knows set up. Yes, you could argue the RB flip confirms it but Ely is still not confirmed Doc. He might as well be but he isn't. I'm not really sure why you posted this, since its a point we could have all made on our own. Only 2 total setups with both a role blocker and Doctor. No Vigi claim and no N1 shot. Nah, I just believe ElyAs. I'm going to bed right now though, worn out. | ||
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United Kingdom225 Posts
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