EPTI've had a read through of the thread, I need to lunch and then I will do some posts.
Cheers
Tere
Newbie Mini Mafia LXI
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
I've had a read through of the thread, I need to lunch and then I will do some posts. Cheers Tere | ||
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
(FWIW, I do quite a lot of tone reading as part of my analysis) I dislike Hier's Bridges concept intensely, I consider it anti town in structure in that it forces players down an automated line of thought, discourages rereading thinking, and provides plenty of room for scum to hide in. Trfel, I think, posted a decent summary of his objections which I found myself nodding along to. However, this isn't why I am voting for Hier as scum. It's not unknown for town newbies to post schemes to catch mafia, and, while not town helpful, I don't think the plan itself alone would be alignment indicative. The next few posts defending the plan also read OK, although a little "my way or the highway". Hier's vote on rsoultin also felt a little OMGUSy to me http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=9#178 Where I really start to become uncomfy with Hier is this post, bold mine: On February 16 2015 07:50 Hier wrote: Trfel: It only takes one other player to declare his or her support for the model to get people to support its use. I know how Bridges works and how to use it to get a town victory. I will always abide by its rules, but if you later decide it's not worth it by all means abandon it. I really don't like that Hier says they will always abide by the model's rules, when pretty much everyone has come out and said they don't like it. Could be a stubborn townie, could be scum looking for an easy way to lay their votes down. I also really don't like the refusal to give reads here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=13#247 It really feels as though Hier has not much to say apart from pushing this flawed model. I was writing this as ElyAs was posting, and see their point about the use of language to confuse. Perhaps Hier's style is just normally swallowed a thesaurus regardless of alignment, but I can help but see posts like below as intentionally confusing. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=15#285 Hier, if you are town, you need, I think, to accept the Bridges model ain't happening, and help town to find some counterwagons Back with thoughts on everyone else once I've gone back and done some filter diving. | ||
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
I need to see some actual helpful stuff from them before I shift my vote though. (BTW, while I think about it, I won't be here at round end almost certainly, I needed to be up at 4.30 this morning to take my husband to the station, and while I will try and be about, I might flake out. I'm a despiser of last minute vote shenannies anyway, I think they are helpful to town almost never IMO) | ||
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
"I was writing this as ElyAs was posting, and see their point about the use of language to confuse. Perhaps Hier's style is just normally swallowed a thesaurus regardless of alignment, but I can't help but see posts like below as intentionally confusing. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=15#285" | ||
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
Trfel - I liked Trfel's tongue in cheek entry and attempt to engage the thread, I also thought his interactions with rso and the Shining in the next couple of pages looked unforced and relaxed. I liked the push to close the discussion on the Bridges method and the fair way he suggested to Hier that it be discussed post game. I liked the pushing of rso to be a little less hard on the newbies. Here's the post of Trfel's on the Bridges method I liked: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=12#221 I liked the reaching out to rso - in general I feel Trfel is reaching out and trying to engage folk, and that's encouraging. There's little pockets of tongue in cheek amusement which feel towny also. I'm not sure I am fully on board with Trfel's case against the Shining, but the slow progression and thought process look towny enough. I'm going Town on Trfel for now. I can see peeps are asking me questions from Trfel's filter so I will catch up on the thread and deal with that. | ||
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
On February 17 2015 00:30 rsoultin wrote: tere, why was mime (the player you replaced) nervous to post? xP Guys, keep your knickers on if I don't reply immediately, I'm going through filters and posting (that means you, Trfel!) Having had my PM I am completely confident the player in question was just completely overwhelmed and felt out of her depth and the "eep don't eat me" post and the immediate replace was just indicative of that. Incidentally rso, I'm made of sterner stuff  | ||
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
jarjarbinks I want to see more from - the first page of that filter washed over me and left no impact. I do see that going to the effort to spreadsheet up the Bridges plan is slightly towny, but I am not sure I would give it lot of town points. But that's possibly my bias against the plan talking. There's a relaxed quality to their posts that I quite like, an in the moment quality that can be hard to replicate as scum. I liked the honesty that they needed to reread, I liked the immediacy of their read change on the shining.Silverarte Slight filter, but she's been catching up too. I liked this post http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=12#221 and there's an ease to her filter I liked. | ||
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
rsoultin - one of the larger filters. I liked the reaching out to Trfel in the first few pages - the town finding town looked quite genuine there to me. The interaction with Hier looked quite natural, too. I liked the reaching out and explanation of wifom to zlefin, and the prod at and immediate reaction to jarjar. I also liked that they reached out to Hier here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=13#251 It boils down to relaxed stance, trying to solve the puzzle, just typing rather than crafting every individual post as scum is wont to do. The ShiningI was initially unsure about the Shining's first two posts and withdrawing when reading through, but their later posts looked better and more scumhunty to me. I liked the quick retraction on Jarjar. The only slightly odd post is the defensive would I bus my partner para in this post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=13#242. I see he's a bit suss of Trfel. There's a casual self mocking humour in his filter I like. OK, that's a filter dive done, ugh. I'll go back and pool my lynchpool, I guess. Apart from Hier, I don't feel I find anyone massively scummy, which troubles me :/ | ||
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
Known town or towny Tere Trfel rsoultin Don't lynch today The Shining ElyAs Silverarte jarjarbinks Lynchpool zlefin Hier | ||
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
I need to do stuff for a bit, but feel free to ask me questions | ||
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
On February 17 2015 01:37 Trfel wrote: I guess it's probably best that I post this now. My thoughts on why lynching Hier isn't necessarily the best idea. Hier opened up the game by posting his Bridges method. By advocating something with direct impact on all players, people naturally responded, and it turned out that the responses were mostly negative. It seems that this immediately frustrated Hier a bit, judging by the tone of his first post after that. (link if you want it) From there, Hier is bombarded with questions. This seems to frustrate him more, and he doesn't answer all of them. One answer that he does provide is that he has no reads, which obviously leads to a whole new wave of questions. Hier posts a scumread on rsoultin. (link if you want it) This read actually isn't all that bad. While rsoultin and I have already discussed why the points addressed here make perfect sense, from Hier's perspective, it doesn't make sense. It is normally expected that someone explains their pushes, not asks everyone else for their opinions. Regardless of Hier's alignment, he is clearly frustrated. This leads to his posts being more sarcastic and less responsive, leading to people scumreading him even more (I don't need to post links to posts where Hier is clearly frustrated, it is too obvious). This also would discourage Hier from providing reads. That's why I can see Hier's play coming from a townie. His play hasn't been good, but it isn't unreasonable. That said, if he doesn't do anything to change his play in the near future, he could very well be the best lynch for the day (at least, as I see it). Thoughts? What I keep coming back to is that surely a scum coach and a scum QT would have persuaded Hier to drop the Bridges idea altogether, and / or nipped it in the bud if he posted it without consultation. Hier isn't being town helpful at the moment, but stubbornly sticking your neck out like Hier has isn't that helpful for a scum wincon.. I could be persuaded to another wagon, for sure. Just not sure I am seeing an obvious one. zlefin's filter also doesn't look appealing to me, but if this is their very first game that's equally a possibility for that. | ||
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
On February 17 2015 01:49 Trfel wrote: To elaborate, my initial concern is that Tere's reads are more based on mafia ability than alignment indicative information. It is really easy to say why someone is wrong and call them mafia, or say that someone makes sense and call them town. But that isn't scumunting. I noticed that Tere's lynch list seems to definitely put those who have played more games higher on the list. I'm placing you and rso higher up, if that's what you mean, because you two are reaching out to each other and trying to build some town consensus, and that's town helpful behaviour I value. It's not about experience, per se. If anything I think the potential to mislynch a brand new player is higher and have reservations in lynching in that pool, although it's been forever since I played in a genuine newbie game. Happy to chat about my experience level if you wish. I can confirm this is the first time I've played on TL mafia. What do you want to know? Oh yeah, and I'm a she. | ||
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
On February 17 2015 02:05 Trfel wrote: I'm not sure I understand this response that much. Town players have coaches too, and by the same logic, a town coach would have said the same thing? And if Hier's play hasn't seemed scum-motivated, why are you voting him? What I do think is scum motivated is his insistence that he's going to use the model regardless of what anyone else does - I picked up on that in my WOT on him when I placed my vote. It's probably the scummiest thing I think anyone has said right now, hence that's where my vote is. I rarely if ever have 100% reads Day 1. I have read your case on the Shining. What other wagons do you think are out there? | ||
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
On February 17 2015 02:05 rsoultin wrote: It's a mindmeldy problem that has me biasing toward townreading her, reading her filter. I'm liking her reads in general except, ironically, the one on Hier because I don't really see how his model plays into his alignment and she had it as a reason to scumread him. Yeah, she could be pocketing me lol but at least some of her reads express things I've just thought and haven't actually posted. Regardless, I doubt I'm lynching her today. Perhaps I haven't expressed myself clearly enough in my WOT on him. I don't think the model structure is town helpful, in fact I think it hurts town. But I don't think posting it is that alignment indicative. Insisting you are going to adhere to it in the face of rejection by the rest of the group does look scummy though, IMO, as it provides perfect cover for not needing to give reads. That post and the general refusal to give reads throughout is what's pinging my scumdar. | ||
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
Scum and town can be stubborn though *shrug* | ||
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
On February 17 2015 02:19 Trfel wrote: I'm almost wondering if this is a scumslip. Why would a town player, particularly one who is new to TL Mafia (thus, probably unfamiliar with both coaching and scum QT's, though I have no clue what the other mafia sites play like so this could be wrong), think of the possibility of a player receiving help from a scum coach or a scum QT and only upon suggestion think of help from a town coach? Attention, attention, step away from the tunnel! Attention! :D (Yeah, I wasn't really thinking of things in terms of coaches TBH - I've never played on a site that has them. I was more thinking of the scumboard and then flung the coach in there without thinking it through to the logical conclusion). | ||
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
On February 17 2015 02:26 rsoultin wrote: Meh -_- Truffle Why you're fighting this Hier lynch so much, yet voting for him anyway and setting up for an AFK vote...it is not giving me the warm town fuzzies. Me neither. Lack of alternate wagon push = inexperienced scum partner? | ||
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