|
On February 17 2015 00:35 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2015 00:02 Trfel wrote:
Hi Tere.
On Hier, for now I am thinking that he is more likely to be town than scum. There is a definite difference between bad play and mafia, and while I don't see Hier's play as being particularly beneficial to town, I don't really see it being mafia-motivated. Just want to be clear on what you're saying: you're saying you have a town read on him, which, given the baseline probability of 77% of him being town, you're placing the odds of him being town at higher than that? I ask because the statement "more likely to be town than scum" would technically be true of someone who had a 51% chance of being town.
I don't mean to specify an exact percentage, but I generally meant the latter option.
Basically, I mean to say that Hier doesn't look good, but (pending another reread) I don't really want to lynch him yet.
|
On February 17 2015 00:30 rsoultin wrote:
tere, why was mime (the player you replaced) nervous to post? xP
Guys, keep your knickers on if I don't reply immediately, I'm going through filters and posting (that means you, Trfel!)
Having had my PM I am completely confident the player in question was just completely overwhelmed and felt out of her depth and the "eep don't eat me" post and the immediate replace was just indicative of that.
Incidentally rso, I'm made of sterner stuff 
|
Okay, time for a revised post on The Shining, hopefully I'm a little more awake now.
- The Shining seems very suspicious of me early on in the game, the reason being that I was scum in the last game that he played. This reason doesn't make any sense to me, but it doesn't seem significantly more likely to come from one alignment than the other. That said, I would like to have it explained.
+ Show Spoiler +On February 16 2015 07:32 The Shining wrote:
Trfel I'm a little biased against because I scummed with him last game and although I do agree with Ely saying him hiding it would have been way more suspicious, controversial start for Trfel seems to not be alignment indicative. Def wouldn't town him for it. And he tried to push discussion last game, too. Null, must see more. Note that I am not saying that it is suspicious that The Shining isn't townreading me, but that the reasoning is strange.
- The Shining's townread on rsoultin is very poor. He has played with rsoultin twice before, and ought to know that rsoultin asking questions is something that will happen regardless of rsoultin's alignment.
- The Shining's push on zlefin is rather poor, and I expected better.
+ Show Spoiler +On February 16 2015 07:32 The Shining wrote:
Zlefin has a couple of posts that lead nowhere and weak and unexplained reads. Mentions WIFOM, game voting rules, some parroting. Says Hier and RSo could both be town or both be scum but wont commit to his reads. Seems to be all for policy lynching inactives when there were only 2. How likely is it both scum members are inactive? Likely my leading candidate for a shot at D1 scum lynch. This is the original case. And the points in it are incorrect. Mentioning WIFOM and game voting rules is definitely not alignment indicative. Zlefin's reads on Hier and rsoultin had a reasonable amount of commitment for an unsure townie at an early stage in the game. I also don't see zlefin only going after inactives. Several of zlefin's posts suggest that he is actively scumhunting. On February 16 2015 09:07 The Shining wrote:
Um, is no one going to even remotely address my slight push on Zlefin? Odd. Why did The Shining clarify that the push is slight? If it's a pressure push, then saying that it is a slight push is horrid. And if it's a serious push, then it isn't slight. The comment just seems like The Shining wants to distance himself from his push a little, while still seeming possessive ("Hey, look at me, I'm doing something, but if it goes badly, don't blame me for it!"). On February 16 2015 12:20 The Shining wrote:
Also, so it's not a surprise.
Vote Zlefin
That's in voting thread. I'll be here at EOD, I'm off of work tomorrow and I don't like the lack of response. Could be inactivity, IRL stuff or just lurking but...my vote is where it is at. Zlefin didn't post in between these three quoted posts. I'm not sure what caused this push to change from a slight push to a vote.
- The Shining seems overly defensive and shows a very strange, ambiguous stance on me (Trfel).
+ Show Spoiler +On February 16 2015 12:11 The Shining wrote:
JJB if you're most worried at first glance about Zf and myself, ask yourself this:
Would I bus my partner D1 while no one but me is pressuring him? He's my top scumread with what's been put into the thread so far. And it might be WIFOM to think I'd light pressure him so that if he does ever flip scum, it'd buy me town cred. But if that was the case, I wouldn't have later commented on the fact that no one else commented on my Zfelin case. I forced it. Scum Shining would just leave it be and if he does flip, I'd be able to go "oh look I called that D1."
So I'm now waiting on Hiers defense, JJbs top scumread and Ely to swing by with a little more than that. I'm assuming you (ElyAs) dozing off now means you'll revisit the RSo Hier exchange with fresh eyes in the morning? BEFORE EoD?
For what its worth, Ely's last post was just a summary of the Hier Rso exchange, a parrot of my questioning Hiers lack of other leads, and an excuse for not giving us more.
Trfel, I really truly hate walls of text. I saw you do it as scum and so did I. I'd scum you for that entire post if I didn't actually read it lmao. And I made that point in the hopes that it would inspire you to do so, Trfel, so I'm glad you obliged. You can see how I was setting it up to see if you were really going to catch up or afk it. And eh, in a game where everyone is on opposite ends of the activity spectrum(very actively posting or lurking along, no mid ground), I feel its my best shot. Policy lynch talk and weak reads and no other talk of lynches shows a disinterest...I know I'd be a bit disinterested if I rolled scum in a newbie game.
Oh wait, I did. And I was. Last game. Lol. Ignoring the fact that the comment the first portion of this post is responding to was already retracted, this is still extremely defensive for an off-hand comment. While town obviously has incentive to be townread and survive, this seems overly so. The last paragraph makes no sense to me. I can't tell if I (Trfel) am being townread, scumread, or what, and I can't tell the reasoning for it. Why can't The Shining form a clear opinion of whether I am town or scum? (or null, for that matter?)
In addition to this, some of The Shining's other posts seem to show genuine scumhunting and thinking. So I am not entirely sure on The Shining. I would definitely like to hear people's thoughts, including The Shining's.
|
On February 17 2015 00:41 Tere wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2015 00:30 rsoultin wrote:
tere, why was mime (the player you replaced) nervous to post? xP Guys, keep your knickers on if I don't reply immediately, I'm going through filters and posting (that means you, Trfel!) Having had my PM I am completely confident the player in question was just completely overwhelmed and felt out of her depth and the "eep don't eat me" post and the immediate replace was just indicative of that. Incidentally rso, I'm made of sterner stuff
(You actually didn't have to answer my question, lol, but I like your answer anyway )
|
ElyAs - quite a short filter, but it feels like they are probing to finding a solution, working things out. Don't want to lynch today.
jarjarbinks I want to see more from - the first page of that filter washed over me and left no impact. I do see that going to the effort to spreadsheet up the Bridges plan is slightly towny, but I am not sure I would give it lot of town points. But that's possibly my bias against the plan talking. There's a relaxed quality to their posts that I quite like, an in the moment quality that can be hard to replicate as scum. I liked the honesty that they needed to reread, I liked the immediacy of their read change on the shining.
Silverarte Slight filter, but she's been catching up too. I liked this post http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=12#221 and there's an ease to her filter I liked.
|
On February 17 2015 00:42 Trfel wrote:Okay, time for a revised post on The Shining, hopefully I'm a little more awake now. - The Shining seems very suspicious of me early on in the game, the reason being that I was scum in the last game that he played. This reason doesn't make any sense to me, but it doesn't seem significantly more likely to come from one alignment than the other. That said, I would like to have it explained.
+ Show Spoiler +On February 16 2015 07:32 The Shining wrote:
Trfel I'm a little biased against because I scummed with him last game and although I do agree with Ely saying him hiding it would have been way more suspicious, controversial start for Trfel seems to not be alignment indicative. Def wouldn't town him for it. And he tried to push discussion last game, too. Null, must see more. Note that I am not saying that it is suspicious that The Shining isn't townreading me, but that the reasoning is strange.
- The Shining's townread on rsoultin is very poor. He has played with rsoultin twice before, and ought to know that rsoultin asking questions is something that will happen regardless of rsoultin's alignment.
- The Shining's push on zlefin is rather poor, and I expected better.
+ Show Spoiler +On February 16 2015 07:32 The Shining wrote:
Zlefin has a couple of posts that lead nowhere and weak and unexplained reads. Mentions WIFOM, game voting rules, some parroting. Says Hier and RSo could both be town or both be scum but wont commit to his reads. Seems to be all for policy lynching inactives when there were only 2. How likely is it both scum members are inactive? Likely my leading candidate for a shot at D1 scum lynch. This is the original case. And the points in it are incorrect. Mentioning WIFOM and game voting rules is definitely not alignment indicative. Zlefin's reads on Hier and rsoultin had a reasonable amount of commitment for an unsure townie at an early stage in the game. I also don't see zlefin only going after inactives. Several of zlefin's posts suggest that he is actively scumhunting. On February 16 2015 09:07 The Shining wrote:
Um, is no one going to even remotely address my slight push on Zlefin? Odd. Why did The Shining clarify that the push is slight? If it's a pressure push, then saying that it is a slight push is horrid. And if it's a serious push, then it isn't slight. The comment just seems like The Shining wants to distance himself from his push a little, while still seeming possessive ("Hey, look at me, I'm doing something, but if it goes badly, don't blame me for it!"). On February 16 2015 12:20 The Shining wrote:
Also, so it's not a surprise.
Vote Zlefin
That's in voting thread. I'll be here at EOD, I'm off of work tomorrow and I don't like the lack of response. Could be inactivity, IRL stuff or just lurking but...my vote is where it is at. Zlefin didn't post in between these three quoted posts. I'm not sure what caused this push to change from a slight push to a vote.
- The Shining seems overly defensive and shows a very strange, ambiguous stance on me (Trfel).
+ Show Spoiler +On February 16 2015 12:11 The Shining wrote:
JJB if you're most worried at first glance about Zf and myself, ask yourself this:
Would I bus my partner D1 while no one but me is pressuring him? He's my top scumread with what's been put into the thread so far. And it might be WIFOM to think I'd light pressure him so that if he does ever flip scum, it'd buy me town cred. But if that was the case, I wouldn't have later commented on the fact that no one else commented on my Zfelin case. I forced it. Scum Shining would just leave it be and if he does flip, I'd be able to go "oh look I called that D1."
So I'm now waiting on Hiers defense, JJbs top scumread and Ely to swing by with a little more than that. I'm assuming you (ElyAs) dozing off now means you'll revisit the RSo Hier exchange with fresh eyes in the morning? BEFORE EoD?
For what its worth, Ely's last post was just a summary of the Hier Rso exchange, a parrot of my questioning Hiers lack of other leads, and an excuse for not giving us more.
Trfel, I really truly hate walls of text. I saw you do it as scum and so did I. I'd scum you for that entire post if I didn't actually read it lmao. And I made that point in the hopes that it would inspire you to do so, Trfel, so I'm glad you obliged. You can see how I was setting it up to see if you were really going to catch up or afk it. And eh, in a game where everyone is on opposite ends of the activity spectrum(very actively posting or lurking along, no mid ground), I feel its my best shot. Policy lynch talk and weak reads and no other talk of lynches shows a disinterest...I know I'd be a bit disinterested if I rolled scum in a newbie game.
Oh wait, I did. And I was. Last game. Lol. Ignoring the fact that the comment the first portion of this post is responding to was already retracted, this is still extremely defensive for an off-hand comment. While town obviously has incentive to be townread and survive, this seems overly so. The last paragraph makes no sense to me. I can't tell if I (Trfel) am being townread, scumread, or what, and I can't tell the reasoning for it. Why can't The Shining form a clear opinion of whether I am town or scum? (or null, for that matter?)
In addition to this, some of The Shining's other posts seem to show genuine scumhunting and thinking. So I am not entirely sure on The Shining. I would definitely like to hear people's thoughts, including The Shining's.
- You making a controversial opening post to "generate discussion" is something you did in your scum game xP I'm not seeing a problem with him being wary of that.
- My scum game was Horn. Unless he read it, he doesn't know my scum game here, and he quite easily catches me on our other forum lol xP So I can see him being confident of a read on me, however unjustified it may be. (Also, would tend to disagree that I play scum well, but that's not really a discussion for this thread.)
- I, too, disagree with his Zlefin read. Not enough to call him scum for it, but it's weak.
- That last point is probably the only one I would consider scum-like...getting defensive so quickly before anyone is really scumreading you. Probably best to recheck the context.
|
lol, rso, when I was reading through pre knowing her alignment I was a bit "seriously, an appeal to emotion don't eat me I'm a poor little newbie, really, really" but no, you are just that scary and she was that overwhelmed 
|
I'm not looking so much as what The Shining did, but why.
I'm fine with The Shining being suspicious of me. It's the reasoning for it that is strange.
I'm fine with The Shining pushing zlefin. But the reasons and strange progression of the push seem off.
Side note, I might actually be back right before the deadline. No guarantees, but I will do my best. Hopefully we won't be needing any last second vote switches, though.
|
On February 17 2015 01:04 Trfel wrote:
I'm not looking so much as what The Shining did, but why.
I'm fine with The Shining being suspicious of me. It's the reasoning for it that is strange.
I'm fine with The Shining pushing zlefin. But the reasons and strange progression of the push seem off.
Side note, I might actually be back right before the deadline. No guarantees, but I will do my best. Hopefully we won't be needing any last second vote switches, though.
Can you outline what exactly is strange?
|
On February 17 2015 01:07 rsoultin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2015 01:04 Trfel wrote:
I'm not looking so much as what The Shining did, but why.
I'm fine with The Shining being suspicious of me. It's the reasoning for it that is strange.
I'm fine with The Shining pushing zlefin. But the reasons and strange progression of the push seem off.
Side note, I might actually be back right before the deadline. No guarantees, but I will do my best. Hopefully we won't be needing any last second vote switches, though. Can you outline what exactly is strange?
EBWOP:
The slight push bit I get, actually, so it's mostly just in regards to his read on you. Still not seeing that.
|
On February 17 2015 01:07 rsoultin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2015 01:04 Trfel wrote:
I'm not looking so much as what The Shining did, but why.
I'm fine with The Shining being suspicious of me. It's the reasoning for it that is strange.
I'm fine with The Shining pushing zlefin. But the reasons and strange progression of the push seem off.
Side note, I might actually be back right before the deadline. No guarantees, but I will do my best. Hopefully we won't be needing any last second vote switches, though. Can you outline what exactly is strange?
I tried to do that already?
Look at the quotes in the first and third spoilers I provided. I have no clue what read The Shining is giving me, and I don't understand the reasoning behind it, either. If you can explain it to me, then I will retract the point.
The Shining described the push as a slight push, but also voted with it. This makes no sense. In addition, the case on zlefin seems to be more making something out of nothing than just a case that I disagree with.
|
Eh, JJB kept ninjaing Shining, so Shining probably hadn't seen that he'd retracted the scumread already.
The defense was still a bit over-the-top maybe? Yes, I know, I know, pot calling the kettle black lol xP I get growly when people use what I perceive to be false reasons to scumread me.
I don't know, Truffle. Could be, but it's not screaming scum at me at the moment. Is he going to be your vote?
|
zlefin - I am not totally getting the warm fuzzies from zlefin's filter. I don't have a problem with the tentative reads as such. It's a tonal thing, and I wish I could put my finger on it. However, this is zlefin's very first game, right? It could be a question of not having found their voice. Gah.
rsoultin - one of the larger filters. I liked the reaching out to Trfel in the first few pages - the town finding town looked quite genuine there to me. The interaction with Hier looked quite natural, too. I liked the reaching out and explanation of wifom to zlefin, and the prod at and immediate reaction to jarjar. I also liked that they reached out to Hier here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=13#251
It boils down to relaxed stance, trying to solve the puzzle, just typing rather than crafting every individual post as scum is wont to do.
The ShiningI was initially unsure about the Shining's first two posts and withdrawing when reading through, but their later posts looked better and more scumhunty to me. I liked the quick retraction on Jarjar. The only slightly odd post is the defensive would I bus my partner para in this post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=13#242. I see he's a bit suss of Trfel. There's a casual self mocking humour in his filter I like.
OK, that's a filter dive done, ugh. I'll go back and pool my lynchpool, I guess. Apart from Hier, I don't feel I find anyone massively scummy, which troubles me :/
|
On February 17 2015 01:18 rsoultin wrote:
Eh, JJB kept ninjaing Shining, so Shining probably hadn't seen that he'd retracted the scumread already.
The defense was still a bit over-the-top maybe? Yes, I know, I know, pot calling the kettle black lol xP I get growly when people use what I perceive to be false reasons to scumread me.
I don't know, Truffle. Could be, but it's not screaming scum at me at the moment. Is he going to be your vote?
Of course The Shining didn't know that jarjarbinks had retracted the comment. Even if he hadn't, the post was definitely more defensive than necessary.
I don't yet know who I will end up voting for. I suppose Hier and The Shining probably seem like the best options at the moment? That said, I would like to hear more opinions on The Shining if possible, and I would like to hear more from The Shining and Hier (well, I'd like to hear more from everyone, but particularly those two...).
|
I think based on all of that,
Known town or towny
Tere
Trfel
rsoultin
Don't lynch today
The Shining
ElyAs
Silverarte
jarjarbinks
Lynchpool
zlefin
Hier
|
On February 16 2015 15:17 Hier wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2015 15:10 rsoultin wrote:On February 16 2015 14:52 rsoultin wrote:On February 16 2015 14:47 Hier wrote:On February 16 2015 12:51 rsoultin wrote:On February 16 2015 07:08 Hier wrote:
rsoultin:
In 3 separate posts you have described your reads to be null towards people that have posted, and despite you not liking the Bridges method, which is fine, said that it is something a town player may suggest thinking it’s good.
Later, after someone mentioned they weren't a fan of my model, you've gone to suggest that I've done nothing to show that I care about finding scum,
all the while you proclaim your reads are null and just ask what other players’ reads are. That is the way mafia players probe the scene to start a bandwagon.
Why else, out of the blue, without any further analysis, would you vote me to be lynched with the phrase “Tell me why I’m wrong, or get onboard.”? No, it is your job to tell everyone the reasons behind your vote, not to tell everyone to get onboard. Okay, in the interest of fairness, if you genuinely believe each of these claims, I can understand your scumread. So I'm going to ask you to actually quote the posts I made that led you to the three bolded conclusions. Preferably in context, because if you misrepresent me I do very much have a tendency to get tunneled xP Once you've done so, I'll answer the last bit. Alright. You went back to my original accusation, to which you have already responded, and are now demanding further explanation when, quite literally, nobody else is asking for it. People have already read my statement and have made up their minds, whatever those may be. You are creating artificial content by searching for an excuse to re-state your innocence, and projecting the appearance of scum hunting at the same time. That would create drivel. You have not been the centre of discussion for several pages, and nobody has been tunnelling you, much less me. Right now it looks like the one doing the tunnelling is you. Look, for now my vote stays where it is. If you post something that changes my mind or a more obvious scum target comes up I promise I will be the first one to let you know. For now let me focus on somebody else, instead of going through your filter again. On February 16 2015 13:31 jarjarbinks wrote:On February 16 2015 07:58 rsoultin wrote:On February 16 2015 07:50 Hier wrote:
Trfel:
It only takes one other player to declare his or her support for the model to get people to support its use. I know how Bridges works and how to use it to get a town victory. I will always abide by its rules, but if you later decide it's not worth it by all means abandon it.
Didn't you say that you'd just made this method up? And again, you're focusing on the model and not what I'm asking you for. @Trfel - I am not in favor of Bridges. Clearly. Even if Hier would be the next "auto-lynch" and I'd laugh my ass off if he flips scum, caught in his own mechanism Hier, I know a lot of people have been asking you questions. Can you answer this one? Should be easy enough? I've already answered this, and my answer isn't changing. Yes, as the game began. As of right now I do not think Trfel or jarjarbinks are scum, and thus have no intention of voting for them. I don't know if this is just because you're new, but me bringing up your case on me and giving you the opportunity to justify it...how does that come from a scum perspective? As you said, no one seems to really be buying your case, so why would I need to further establish my innocence? For the record, I'd still like this answered, Hier. From a more veteran player I'd be calling to lynch you with fire for most of your posts xP but I recognize that this is a newbie game and you might actually believe what you're saying. I just don't know how far my lexicon can take me reiterating my own accusations, and I don't really see the point when you'll just rebuke it my saying I misinterpreted your quotes, thus creating a nucleus for a completely unnecessary discussion. But if you really really really want I'll do so in the morning. It's getting late here too, and tomorrow is a holiday here, so I'll have time.
Here's the deal, bud. I'm not asking you to reiterate your accusations. I'm asking you to quote the 3 posts with null reads, demonstrate how my scumming you was a result of someone else criticizing your model, and show that I've generally been null reading everyone while asking questions. I want to see where you're getting your scumread from to decide whether I think it comes from town or not. Town can scumread me; I'm not an idiot xP
As it stands, it makes me think you don't believe your own read when you refuse to back it up. So yes, I really really really want you to show me your line of thought, because I'd like to get scum Day 1, and right now you're reading the most scummy to me. If you're town, show me how I'm wrong.
|
I do see Trfel's point on the Shining though, reading through their case.
I need to do stuff for a bit, but feel free to ask me questions
|
I guess it's probably best that I post this now. My thoughts on why lynching Hier isn't necessarily the best idea.
Hier opened up the game by posting his Bridges method. By advocating something with direct impact on all players, people naturally responded, and it turned out that the responses were mostly negative. It seems that this immediately frustrated Hier a bit, judging by the tone of his first post after that. (link if you want it)
From there, Hier is bombarded with questions. This seems to frustrate him more, and he doesn't answer all of them. One answer that he does provide is that he has no reads, which obviously leads to a whole new wave of questions.
Hier posts a scumread on rsoultin. (link if you want it) This read actually isn't all that bad. While rsoultin and I have already discussed why the points addressed here make perfect sense, from Hier's perspective, it doesn't make sense. It is normally expected that someone explains their pushes, not asks everyone else for their opinions.
Regardless of Hier's alignment, he is clearly frustrated. This leads to his posts being more sarcastic and less responsive, leading to people scumreading him even more (I don't need to post links to posts where Hier is clearly frustrated, it is too obvious). This also would discourage Hier from providing reads.
That's why I can see Hier's play coming from a townie. His play hasn't been good, but it isn't unreasonable. That said, if he doesn't do anything to change his play in the near future, he could very well be the best lynch for the day (at least, as I see it).
Thoughts?
|
Where you at on Tere, Truffle?
I'm liking her, honestly lol ^^
|
Yes this is my first game.
I'm not entirely clear on what you mean by finding a voice; but I know I tend to be more tentative in general than most people, and there isn't a mafia history yet to compare with.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
