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On February 17 2015 01:37 Trfel wrote:I guess it's probably best that I post this now. My thoughts on why lynching Hier isn't necessarily the best idea. Hier opened up the game by posting his Bridges method. By advocating something with direct impact on all players, people naturally responded, and it turned out that the responses were mostly negative. It seems that this immediately frustrated Hier a bit, judging by the tone of his first post after that. ( link if you want it) From there, Hier is bombarded with questions. This seems to frustrate him more, and he doesn't answer all of them. One answer that he does provide is that he has no reads, which obviously leads to a whole new wave of questions. Hier posts a scumread on rsoultin. ( link if you want it) This read actually isn't all that bad. While rsoultin and I have already discussed why the points addressed here make perfect sense, from Hier's perspective, it doesn't make sense. It is normally expected that someone explains their pushes, not asks everyone else for their opinions. Regardless of Hier's alignment, he is clearly frustrated. This leads to his posts being more sarcastic and less responsive, leading to people scumreading him even more (I don't need to post links to posts where Hier is clearly frustrated, it is too obvious). This also would discourage Hier from providing reads. That's why I can see Hier's play coming from a townie. His play hasn't been good, but it isn't unreasonable. That said, if he doesn't do anything to change his play in the near future, he could very well be the best lynch for the day (at least, as I see it). Thoughts?
Despite a few knee-jerk reaction posts here and there :/ I've been more than willing to entertain the notion that Hier is town. Lol, this is hardly a Grade-A rsoul tunnel right now. He's just done nothing to convince me that he is town.
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I concur with your analysis on Hier trfel.
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On February 17 2015 01:38 rsoultin wrote:
Where you at on Tere, Truffle?
I'm liking her, honestly lol ^^
Is Tere female? I don't think that it was specified? It would be much more convenient to have this answered, please.
As for Tere's alignment, I don't know. I really don't know.
This is why I didn't want Tere to answer your question. In addition to pushing (what I believe are) the rules, or at least their intentions, it provides bias that shouldn't be there for the sake of fairness. (side note, it could also be perceived as bluehunting, though I think that's a silly notion)
Just posting this for reference, in case anyone else is wondering about Tere's previous mafia experience. Tere seems to have a reasonable grasp of the game, and what he/she is saying makes sense, but I need to look more closely to separate the logic from its implications on Tere's alignment.
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On February 17 2015 01:44 zlefin wrote:
I concur with your analysis on Hier trfel.
Zlefin, who do you want to lynch now? (and yes, I read your previous list, if it is the same, then that is fine... unless of course you decide to lynch me, in which case I'll be pretty annoyed)
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On February 17 2015 01:44 Trfel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2015 01:38 rsoultin wrote:
Where you at on Tere, Truffle?
I'm liking her, honestly lol ^^ Is Tere female? I don't think that it was specified? It would be much more convenient to have this answered, please. As for Tere's alignment, I don't know. I really don't know. This is why I didn't want Tere to answer your question. In addition to pushing (what I believe are) the rules, or at least their intentions, it provides bias that shouldn't be there for the sake of fairness. (side note, it could also be perceived as bluehunting, though I think that's a silly notion) Just posting this for reference, in case anyone else is wondering about Tere's previous mafia experience. Tere seems to have a reasonable grasp of the game, and what he/she is saying makes sense, but I need to look more closely to separate the logic from its implications on Tere's alignment.
To elaborate, my initial concern is that Tere's reads are more based on mafia ability than alignment indicative information. It is really easy to say why someone is wrong and call them mafia, or say that someone makes sense and call them town. But that isn't scumunting. I noticed that Tere's lynch list seems to definitely put those who have played more games higher on the list.
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On February 17 2015 01:44 Trfel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2015 01:38 rsoultin wrote:
Where you at on Tere, Truffle?
I'm liking her, honestly lol ^^ Is Tere female? I don't think that it was specified? It would be much more convenient to have this answered, please. As for Tere's alignment, I don't know. I really don't know. This is why I didn't want Tere to answer your question. In addition to pushing (what I believe are) the rules, or at least their intentions, it provides bias that shouldn't be there for the sake of fairness. (side note, it could also be perceived as bluehunting, though I think that's a silly notion) Just posting this for reference, in case anyone else is wondering about Tere's previous mafia experience. Tere seems to have a reasonable grasp of the game, and what he/she is saying makes sense, but I need to look more closely to separate the logic from its implications on Tere's alignment.
Lol, truffle, maybe I'm missing a rule somewhere, but evaluating a player without considering the player they replaced seems foolish and not against the rules xP
Interesting to know she's a bit more experienced, though (can kind of get that from how she's approaching the game, anyway). Mostly my liking her was based on how she's approached her reads. I'm asking you cause I know that a large portion of it is just I like her tone lol >< Me and my tonereads.
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On February 17 2015 01:47 Trfel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2015 01:44 zlefin wrote:
I concur with your analysis on Hier trfel.
Zlefin, who do you want to lynch now? (and yes, I read your previous list, if it is the same, then that is fine... unless of course you decide to lynch me, in which case I'll be pretty annoyed)
Currently, I'm most likely to lynch Hier. There's a mild chance I choose someone else on my list as a probe for information.
On you, I think I'll wait a day at least, I still feel that a lynch on you would provide the most information to guide future plans, but I need to build a better case for that and think about it before going through with it.
I'm also deciding whether to vote now, or wait to give Hier a chance to respond before voting, as he's presently asleep.
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On February 17 2015 01:37 Trfel wrote:I guess it's probably best that I post this now. My thoughts on why lynching Hier isn't necessarily the best idea. Hier opened up the game by posting his Bridges method. By advocating something with direct impact on all players, people naturally responded, and it turned out that the responses were mostly negative. It seems that this immediately frustrated Hier a bit, judging by the tone of his first post after that. ( link if you want it) From there, Hier is bombarded with questions. This seems to frustrate him more, and he doesn't answer all of them. One answer that he does provide is that he has no reads, which obviously leads to a whole new wave of questions. Hier posts a scumread on rsoultin. ( link if you want it) This read actually isn't all that bad. While rsoultin and I have already discussed why the points addressed here make perfect sense, from Hier's perspective, it doesn't make sense. It is normally expected that someone explains their pushes, not asks everyone else for their opinions. Regardless of Hier's alignment, he is clearly frustrated. This leads to his posts being more sarcastic and less responsive, leading to people scumreading him even more (I don't need to post links to posts where Hier is clearly frustrated, it is too obvious). This also would discourage Hier from providing reads. That's why I can see Hier's play coming from a townie. His play hasn't been good, but it isn't unreasonable. That said, if he doesn't do anything to change his play in the near future, he could very well be the best lynch for the day (at least, as I see it). Thoughts?
What I keep coming back to is that surely a scum coach and a scum QT would have persuaded Hier to drop the Bridges idea altogether, and / or nipped it in the bud if he posted it without consultation. Hier isn't being town helpful at the moment, but stubbornly sticking your neck out like Hier has isn't that helpful for a scum wincon..
I could be persuaded to another wagon, for sure. Just not sure I am seeing an obvious one. zlefin's filter also doesn't look appealing to me, but if this is their very first game that's equally a possibility for that.
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On February 17 2015 01:51 rsoultin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2015 01:44 Trfel wrote:On February 17 2015 01:38 rsoultin wrote:
Where you at on Tere, Truffle?
I'm liking her, honestly lol ^^ Is Tere female? I don't think that it was specified? It would be much more convenient to have this answered, please. As for Tere's alignment, I don't know. I really don't know. This is why I didn't want Tere to answer your question. In addition to pushing (what I believe are) the rules, or at least their intentions, it provides bias that shouldn't be there for the sake of fairness. (side note, it could also be perceived as bluehunting, though I think that's a silly notion) Just posting this for reference, in case anyone else is wondering about Tere's previous mafia experience. Tere seems to have a reasonable grasp of the game, and what he/she is saying makes sense, but I need to look more closely to separate the logic from its implications on Tere's alignment. Lol, truffle, maybe I'm missing a rule somewhere, but evaluating a player without considering the player they replaced seems foolish and not against the rules xP Interesting to know she's a bit more experienced, though (can kind of get that from how she's approaching the game, anyway). Mostly my liking her was based on how she's approached her reads. I'm asking you cause I know that a large portion of it is just I like her tone lol >< Me and my tonereads. For the record, I'm dropping the point in your first paragraph because I don't believe it serves any further purpose, not because I agree with you.
Would you mind taking another look at Tere and start with the assumption that Tere is a reasonably experienced and capable mafia player? I will do the same.
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On February 17 2015 01:49 Trfel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2015 01:44 Trfel wrote:On February 17 2015 01:38 rsoultin wrote:
Where you at on Tere, Truffle?
I'm liking her, honestly lol ^^ Is Tere female? I don't think that it was specified? It would be much more convenient to have this answered, please. As for Tere's alignment, I don't know. I really don't know. This is why I didn't want Tere to answer your question. In addition to pushing (what I believe are) the rules, or at least their intentions, it provides bias that shouldn't be there for the sake of fairness. (side note, it could also be perceived as bluehunting, though I think that's a silly notion) Just posting this for reference, in case anyone else is wondering about Tere's previous mafia experience. Tere seems to have a reasonable grasp of the game, and what he/she is saying makes sense, but I need to look more closely to separate the logic from its implications on Tere's alignment. To elaborate, my initial concern is that Tere's reads are more based on mafia ability than alignment indicative information. It is really easy to say why someone is wrong and call them mafia, or say that someone makes sense and call them town. But that isn't scumunting. I noticed that Tere's lynch list seems to definitely put those who have played more games higher on the list.
Good point on the scumhunting. Will take that into consideration. Though I think generally people who have played more have an easier time getting townread, anyway.
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On February 17 2015 01:49 Trfel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2015 01:44 Trfel wrote:On February 17 2015 01:38 rsoultin wrote:
Where you at on Tere, Truffle?
I'm liking her, honestly lol ^^ Is Tere female? I don't think that it was specified? It would be much more convenient to have this answered, please. As for Tere's alignment, I don't know. I really don't know. This is why I didn't want Tere to answer your question. In addition to pushing (what I believe are) the rules, or at least their intentions, it provides bias that shouldn't be there for the sake of fairness. (side note, it could also be perceived as bluehunting, though I think that's a silly notion) Just posting this for reference, in case anyone else is wondering about Tere's previous mafia experience. Tere seems to have a reasonable grasp of the game, and what he/she is saying makes sense, but I need to look more closely to separate the logic from its implications on Tere's alignment. To elaborate, my initial concern is that Tere's reads are more based on mafia ability than alignment indicative information. It is really easy to say why someone is wrong and call them mafia, or say that someone makes sense and call them town. But that isn't scumunting. I noticed that Tere's lynch list seems to definitely put those who have played more games higher on the list.
I'm placing you and rso higher up, if that's what you mean, because you two are reaching out to each other and trying to build some town consensus, and that's town helpful behaviour I value. It's not about experience, per se. If anything I think the potential to mislynch a brand new player is higher and have reservations in lynching in that pool, although it's been forever since I played in a genuine newbie game.
Happy to chat about my experience level if you wish. I can confirm this is the first time I've played on TL mafia. What do you want to know?
Oh yeah, and I'm a she.
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Had a feeling that rsoultin was right about that. Why are all of the sensible people female?
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On February 17 2015 01:52 Tere wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2015 01:37 Trfel wrote:I guess it's probably best that I post this now. My thoughts on why lynching Hier isn't necessarily the best idea. Hier opened up the game by posting his Bridges method. By advocating something with direct impact on all players, people naturally responded, and it turned out that the responses were mostly negative. It seems that this immediately frustrated Hier a bit, judging by the tone of his first post after that. ( link if you want it) From there, Hier is bombarded with questions. This seems to frustrate him more, and he doesn't answer all of them. One answer that he does provide is that he has no reads, which obviously leads to a whole new wave of questions. Hier posts a scumread on rsoultin. ( link if you want it) This read actually isn't all that bad. While rsoultin and I have already discussed why the points addressed here make perfect sense, from Hier's perspective, it doesn't make sense. It is normally expected that someone explains their pushes, not asks everyone else for their opinions. Regardless of Hier's alignment, he is clearly frustrated. This leads to his posts being more sarcastic and less responsive, leading to people scumreading him even more (I don't need to post links to posts where Hier is clearly frustrated, it is too obvious). This also would discourage Hier from providing reads. That's why I can see Hier's play coming from a townie. His play hasn't been good, but it isn't unreasonable. That said, if he doesn't do anything to change his play in the near future, he could very well be the best lynch for the day (at least, as I see it). Thoughts? What I keep coming back to is that surely a scum coach and a scum QT would have persuaded Hier to drop the Bridges idea altogether, and / or nipped it in the bud if he posted it without consultation. Hier isn't being town helpful at the moment, but stubbornly sticking your neck out like Hier has isn't that helpful for a scum wincon.. I could be persuaded to another wagon, for sure. Just not sure I am seeing an obvious one. zlefin's filter also doesn't look appealing to me, but if this is their very first game that's equally a possibility for that. I'm not sure I understand this response that much. Town players have coaches too, and by the same logic, a town coach would have said the same thing? And if Hier's play hasn't seemed scum-motivated, why are you voting him?
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On February 17 2015 01:53 Trfel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2015 01:51 rsoultin wrote:On February 17 2015 01:44 Trfel wrote:On February 17 2015 01:38 rsoultin wrote:
Where you at on Tere, Truffle?
I'm liking her, honestly lol ^^ Is Tere female? I don't think that it was specified? It would be much more convenient to have this answered, please. As for Tere's alignment, I don't know. I really don't know. This is why I didn't want Tere to answer your question. In addition to pushing (what I believe are) the rules, or at least their intentions, it provides bias that shouldn't be there for the sake of fairness. (side note, it could also be perceived as bluehunting, though I think that's a silly notion) Just posting this for reference, in case anyone else is wondering about Tere's previous mafia experience. Tere seems to have a reasonable grasp of the game, and what he/she is saying makes sense, but I need to look more closely to separate the logic from its implications on Tere's alignment. Lol, truffle, maybe I'm missing a rule somewhere, but evaluating a player without considering the player they replaced seems foolish and not against the rules xP Interesting to know she's a bit more experienced, though (can kind of get that from how she's approaching the game, anyway). Mostly my liking her was based on how she's approached her reads. I'm asking you cause I know that a large portion of it is just I like her tone lol >< Me and my tonereads. For the record, I'm dropping the point in your first paragraph because I don't believe it serves any further purpose, not because I agree with you. Would you mind taking another look at Tere and start with the assumption that Tere is a reasonably experienced and capable mafia player? I will do the same.
It's a mindmeldy problem that has me biasing toward townreading her, reading her filter. I'm liking her reads in general except, ironically, the one on Hier because I don't really see how his model plays into his alignment and she had it as a reason to scumread him.
Yeah, she could be pocketing me lol but at least some of her reads express things I've just thought and haven't actually posted. Regardless, I doubt I'm lynching her today.
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On February 17 2015 02:05 Trfel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2015 01:52 Tere wrote:On February 17 2015 01:37 Trfel wrote:I guess it's probably best that I post this now. My thoughts on why lynching Hier isn't necessarily the best idea. Hier opened up the game by posting his Bridges method. By advocating something with direct impact on all players, people naturally responded, and it turned out that the responses were mostly negative. It seems that this immediately frustrated Hier a bit, judging by the tone of his first post after that. ( link if you want it) From there, Hier is bombarded with questions. This seems to frustrate him more, and he doesn't answer all of them. One answer that he does provide is that he has no reads, which obviously leads to a whole new wave of questions. Hier posts a scumread on rsoultin. ( link if you want it) This read actually isn't all that bad. While rsoultin and I have already discussed why the points addressed here make perfect sense, from Hier's perspective, it doesn't make sense. It is normally expected that someone explains their pushes, not asks everyone else for their opinions. Regardless of Hier's alignment, he is clearly frustrated. This leads to his posts being more sarcastic and less responsive, leading to people scumreading him even more (I don't need to post links to posts where Hier is clearly frustrated, it is too obvious). This also would discourage Hier from providing reads. That's why I can see Hier's play coming from a townie. His play hasn't been good, but it isn't unreasonable. That said, if he doesn't do anything to change his play in the near future, he could very well be the best lynch for the day (at least, as I see it). Thoughts? What I keep coming back to is that surely a scum coach and a scum QT would have persuaded Hier to drop the Bridges idea altogether, and / or nipped it in the bud if he posted it without consultation. Hier isn't being town helpful at the moment, but stubbornly sticking your neck out like Hier has isn't that helpful for a scum wincon.. I could be persuaded to another wagon, for sure. Just not sure I am seeing an obvious one. zlefin's filter also doesn't look appealing to me, but if this is their very first game that's equally a possibility for that. I'm not sure I understand this response that much. Town players have coaches too, and by the same logic, a town coach would have said the same thing? And if Hier's play hasn't seemed scum-motivated, why are you voting him?
What I do think is scum motivated is his insistence that he's going to use the model regardless of what anyone else does - I picked up on that in my WOT on him when I placed my vote. It's probably the scummiest thing I think anyone has said right now, hence that's where my vote is. I rarely if ever have 100% reads Day 1.
I have read your case on the Shining. What other wagons do you think are out there?
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On February 17 2015 02:05 rsoultin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2015 01:53 Trfel wrote:On February 17 2015 01:51 rsoultin wrote:On February 17 2015 01:44 Trfel wrote:On February 17 2015 01:38 rsoultin wrote:
Where you at on Tere, Truffle?
I'm liking her, honestly lol ^^ Is Tere female? I don't think that it was specified? It would be much more convenient to have this answered, please. As for Tere's alignment, I don't know. I really don't know. This is why I didn't want Tere to answer your question. In addition to pushing (what I believe are) the rules, or at least their intentions, it provides bias that shouldn't be there for the sake of fairness. (side note, it could also be perceived as bluehunting, though I think that's a silly notion) Just posting this for reference, in case anyone else is wondering about Tere's previous mafia experience. Tere seems to have a reasonable grasp of the game, and what he/she is saying makes sense, but I need to look more closely to separate the logic from its implications on Tere's alignment. Lol, truffle, maybe I'm missing a rule somewhere, but evaluating a player without considering the player they replaced seems foolish and not against the rules xP Interesting to know she's a bit more experienced, though (can kind of get that from how she's approaching the game, anyway). Mostly my liking her was based on how she's approached her reads. I'm asking you cause I know that a large portion of it is just I like her tone lol >< Me and my tonereads. For the record, I'm dropping the point in your first paragraph because I don't believe it serves any further purpose, not because I agree with you. Would you mind taking another look at Tere and start with the assumption that Tere is a reasonably experienced and capable mafia player? I will do the same. It's a mindmeldy problem that has me biasing toward townreading her, reading her filter. I'm liking her reads in general except, ironically, the one on Hier because I don't really see how his model plays into his alignment and she had it as a reason to scumread him. Yeah, she could be pocketing me lol but at least some of her reads express things I've just thought and haven't actually posted. Regardless, I doubt I'm lynching her today.
Perhaps I haven't expressed myself clearly enough in my WOT on him. I don't think the model structure is town helpful, in fact I think it hurts town. But I don't think posting it is that alignment indicative. Insisting you are going to adhere to it in the face of rejection by the rest of the group does look scummy though, IMO, as it provides perfect cover for not needing to give reads. That post and the general refusal to give reads throughout is what's pinging my scumdar.
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You do have a point that town coaching should have picked up on that, too, though Trfel.
Scum and town can be stubborn though *shrug*
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I just realized. There's been almost nothing going as far as counterwagons to Hier. Just a really small push from The Shining on zlefin.
If Hier really is mafia, I would expect to see some sort of counter push (unless it actually is a The Shining and Hier scumteam).
This makes me even more hesitant to lynch Hier. It just really feels like a typical newbie game Day 1 mislynch.
Tere, I don't know at the moment. And rsoultin, I'm really hesitant to lynch someone who is making sense when they have just replaced into the game. That seems silly.
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See, I don't think that Hier is insisting on using the model at this point. He proposed the model, people said why they didn't want to use it, then he said that he was still intending to use it. But since this post, Hier has not stated that he will be following his model, so I don't think we can assume that he is still insisting that he will follow it.
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On February 17 2015 02:12 Tere wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2015 02:05 rsoultin wrote:On February 17 2015 01:53 Trfel wrote:On February 17 2015 01:51 rsoultin wrote:On February 17 2015 01:44 Trfel wrote:On February 17 2015 01:38 rsoultin wrote:
Where you at on Tere, Truffle?
I'm liking her, honestly lol ^^ Is Tere female? I don't think that it was specified? It would be much more convenient to have this answered, please. As for Tere's alignment, I don't know. I really don't know. This is why I didn't want Tere to answer your question. In addition to pushing (what I believe are) the rules, or at least their intentions, it provides bias that shouldn't be there for the sake of fairness. (side note, it could also be perceived as bluehunting, though I think that's a silly notion) Just posting this for reference, in case anyone else is wondering about Tere's previous mafia experience. Tere seems to have a reasonable grasp of the game, and what he/she is saying makes sense, but I need to look more closely to separate the logic from its implications on Tere's alignment. Lol, truffle, maybe I'm missing a rule somewhere, but evaluating a player without considering the player they replaced seems foolish and not against the rules xP Interesting to know she's a bit more experienced, though (can kind of get that from how she's approaching the game, anyway). Mostly my liking her was based on how she's approached her reads. I'm asking you cause I know that a large portion of it is just I like her tone lol >< Me and my tonereads. For the record, I'm dropping the point in your first paragraph because I don't believe it serves any further purpose, not because I agree with you. Would you mind taking another look at Tere and start with the assumption that Tere is a reasonably experienced and capable mafia player? I will do the same. It's a mindmeldy problem that has me biasing toward townreading her, reading her filter. I'm liking her reads in general except, ironically, the one on Hier because I don't really see how his model plays into his alignment and she had it as a reason to scumread him. Yeah, she could be pocketing me lol but at least some of her reads express things I've just thought and haven't actually posted. Regardless, I doubt I'm lynching her today. Perhaps I haven't expressed myself clearly enough in my WOT on him. I don't think the model structure is town helpful, in fact I think it hurts town. But I don't think posting it is that alignment indicative. Insisting you are going to adhere to it in the face of rejection by the rest of the group does look scummy though, IMO, as it provides perfect cover for not needing to give reads. That post and the general refusal to give reads throughout is what's pinging my scumdar.
I don't read that post the same way. In context, he was trying to get support for his model from Truffle, and when asked why he'd stick to it by himself, he claimed that getting just one more person to support it would probably lead to more -shrugs- Which seems viable enough to me.
It's the lack of desire to put in work, the clamming up and dodging questions, and the determination to stick to his guns regardless of any other evidence that presents itself that bugs me. Can I see this coming from frustrated newbie town? Absolutely. But I also know it's difficult to change positions as scum, because it's harder to generate reasons for changing your mind or stance. It's also pretty easy to hide behind set-up speculation or policy, and this mechanism falls into the set-up category.
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EPT
