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On February 16 2015 21:07 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2015 15:17 Hier wrote:On February 16 2015 15:10 rsoultin wrote:On February 16 2015 14:52 rsoultin wrote:On February 16 2015 14:47 Hier wrote:On February 16 2015 12:51 rsoultin wrote:On February 16 2015 07:08 Hier wrote:
rsoultin:
In 3 separate posts you have described your reads to be null towards people that have posted, and despite you not liking the Bridges method, which is fine, said that it is something a town player may suggest thinking it’s good.
Later, after someone mentioned they weren't a fan of my model, you've gone to suggest that I've done nothing to show that I care about finding scum,
all the while you proclaim your reads are null and just ask what other players’ reads are. That is the way mafia players probe the scene to start a bandwagon.
Why else, out of the blue, without any further analysis, would you vote me to be lynched with the phrase “Tell me why I’m wrong, or get onboard.”? No, it is your job to tell everyone the reasons behind your vote, not to tell everyone to get onboard. Okay, in the interest of fairness, if you genuinely believe each of these claims, I can understand your scumread. So I'm going to ask you to actually quote the posts I made that led you to the three bolded conclusions. Preferably in context, because if you misrepresent me I do very much have a tendency to get tunneled xP Once you've done so, I'll answer the last bit. Alright. You went back to my original accusation, to which you have already responded, and are now demanding further explanation when, quite literally, nobody else is asking for it. People have already read my statement and have made up their minds, whatever those may be. You are creating artificial content by searching for an excuse to re-state your innocence, and projecting the appearance of scum hunting at the same time. That would create drivel. You have not been the centre of discussion for several pages, and nobody has been tunnelling you, much less me. Right now it looks like the one doing the tunnelling is you. Look, for now my vote stays where it is. If you post something that changes my mind or a more obvious scum target comes up I promise I will be the first one to let you know. For now let me focus on somebody else, instead of going through your filter again. On February 16 2015 13:31 jarjarbinks wrote:On February 16 2015 07:58 rsoultin wrote:On February 16 2015 07:50 Hier wrote:
Trfel:
It only takes one other player to declare his or her support for the model to get people to support its use. I know how Bridges works and how to use it to get a town victory. I will always abide by its rules, but if you later decide it's not worth it by all means abandon it.
Didn't you say that you'd just made this method up? And again, you're focusing on the model and not what I'm asking you for. @Trfel - I am not in favor of Bridges. Clearly. Even if Hier would be the next "auto-lynch" and I'd laugh my ass off if he flips scum, caught in his own mechanism  Hier, I know a lot of people have been asking you questions. Can you answer this one? Should be easy enough? I've already answered this, and my answer isn't changing. Yes, as the game began. As of right now I do not think Trfel or jarjarbinks are scum, and thus have no intention of voting for them. I don't know if this is just because you're new, but me bringing up your case on me and giving you the opportunity to justify it...how does that come from a scum perspective? As you said, no one seems to really be buying your case, so why would I need to further establish my innocence? For the record, I'd still like this answered, Hier. From a more veteran player I'd be calling to lynch you with fire for most of your posts xP but I recognize that this is a newbie game and you might actually believe what you're saying. I just don't know how far my lexicon can take me reiterating my own accusations, and I don't really see the point when you'll just rebuke it my saying I misinterpreted your quotes, thus creating a nucleus for a completely unnecessary discussion. But if you really really really want I'll do so in the morning. It's getting late here too, and tomorrow is a holiday here, so I'll have time. I would like it if you did that, I find this post of yours feels scummy to me. It feels like a lot of blather, and needlessly fanc y words (admittedly something I tend to do myself), that say very little and amount to a post that doesn't really add anything.
I kinda agree with you on that post zlefin, and it's not the only post where I feel Hier is almost trying to confuse us.
Hier, I think this is inconsistent with the fact that you proposed a plan based on "eliminating chaos".
I understand that you're saying "I don't want to create unnecessary discussion", and that is consistent with your thought process, but I still have trouble following you on some posts.
(post for reference)
On February 16 2015 07:08 Hier wrote:
jarjarbinks, Trfel:
Purely numerically completely off the wall random lynches win out over the Bridges method by a little over 2 percentage points at the second lynch; it is negligible. In both cases mafia’s odds of escaping 2 lynches in a row are a little better than a coin flip.
Better blind mathematical odds are not, however, what I’m advocating. I am selling a platform, a canvas, through which reads can be made. You say people will be content with the predetermined 2nd lynch and activity will drop – I say you’re wrong. As long as there are 2 sides that want to win arguments will always arise, except in this case they will be of a different nature: justification of substitution, rather than a timed mandatory witch hunt. Bandwagons will certainly not be eliminated, but through this method they will demand sturdier foundations, which eliminates chaos.
[...]
Plus as other players said, you were only talking about your plan and your scumread on rsoultin, half justified by "She is next on my list" and "She has null reads". Later, you said "Null reads are bad and counter productive". I disagree on that, because it promotes more effort from the person that is painted as null. If I don't have clear scumreads, I'm gonna analyze my null reads first.
I do agree that saying "I've got a nullread on an inactive" is not constructive, but on active players, It is.
(post for reference)
On February 16 2015 04:23 Hier wrote:
I was excited seeing so many new posts, turns out it was for naught. A lot of people are requesting that I provide further reads. I am going to point out that as off right now ElyAs, zlefin, jarjarbinks, and Trfel have not a single scum read with justification between them. Instead what we have from them is a mass of neutral to townish reads that they aren’t willing to commit to, opting to wait for more posts from other people by asking for their reads.
I have provided my prime scum read with justification. Of course rsoultin may just not be very good at the game, which is fine, but I’ll stand by my claim. The Shining’s scum read on zlefin isn’t without rationale, but I suspect the second mafia player to be one of the two inactive players. I do not have a solid town read, in fact it doesn’t make sense to, and stating you are neutral about that guy and that guy isn’t productive.
Now, you said you were going to focus on somebody else, I look forward to this. But until then,
##vote Hier
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Dear lovely mods, would it be possible to get links to each person's filter next to their name in the intro post or something?
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
On February 16 2015 23:48 Tere wrote:
Dear lovely mods, would it be possible to get links to each person's filter next to their name in the intro post or something?
^ see post 3
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Lol, sorry, I didn't parse the click throughs. Sorry and thanks for clarifying 
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Hi Tere.
On Hier, for now I am thinking that he is more likely to be town than scum. There is a definite difference between bad play and mafia, and while I don't see Hier's play as being particularly beneficial to town, I don't really see it being mafia-motivated.
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I kinda agree with you, Trfel. I'm really not sold on that lynch, and I think my post reflects that. But I don't have much on other players.
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So, carried over from vote thread ##Vote Hier
(FWIW, I do quite a lot of tone reading as part of my analysis)
I dislike Hier's Bridges concept intensely, I consider it anti town in structure in that it forces players down an automated line of thought, discourages rereading thinking, and provides plenty of room for scum to hide in. Trfel, I think, posted a decent summary of his objections which I found myself nodding along to. However, this isn't why I am voting for Hier as scum. It's not unknown for town newbies to post schemes to catch mafia, and, while not town helpful, I don't think the plan itself alone would be alignment indicative. The next few posts defending the plan also read OK, although a little "my way or the highway".
Hier's vote on rsoultin also felt a little OMGUSy to me
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=9#178
Where I really start to become uncomfy with Hier is this post, bold mine:
On February 16 2015 07:50 Hier wrote:
Trfel:
It only takes one other player to declare his or her support for the model to get people to support its use. I know how Bridges works and how to use it to get a town victory. I will always abide by its rules, but if you later decide it's not worth it by all means abandon it.
I really don't like that Hier says they will always abide by the model's rules, when pretty much everyone has come out and said they don't like it. Could be a stubborn townie, could be scum looking for an easy way to lay their votes down.
I also really don't like the refusal to give reads here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=13#247
It really feels as though Hier has not much to say apart from pushing this flawed model.
I was writing this as ElyAs was posting, and see their point about the use of language to confuse. Perhaps Hier's style is just normally swallowed a thesaurus regardless of alignment, but I can help but see posts like below as intentionally confusing.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=15#285
Hier, if you are town, you need, I think, to accept the Bridges model ain't happening, and help town to find some counterwagons
Back with thoughts on everyone else once I've gone back and done some filter diving.
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I agree Hier could be town and just locked on their pet model, and agree we need to look for some counterwagons. No-one yet is really pinging for me yet though :/
I need to see some actual helpful stuff from them before I shift my vote though.
(BTW, while I think about it, I won't be here at round end almost certainly, I needed to be up at 4.30 this morning to take my husband to the station, and while I will try and be about, I might flake out. I'm a despiser of last minute vote shenannies anyway, I think they are helpful to town almost never IMO)
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Truffle, time to test that mindmeld...
what did you think I was doing with the push on Hier?
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On February 16 2015 20:43 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2015 09:53 jarjarbinks wrote:On February 16 2015 09:31 Trfel wrote:On February 16 2015 09:29 jarjarbinks wrote:
Rsoultin: Do you actually believe Hier is scum or do you just disapprove of his idea? Town can be wrong right?
Maybe next game you can be mother hen xD lol Town can never be wrong. Your statement is wrong, so you are scum. lolz dang it you caught me! lol While I recognize it was done in jest, I still dislike this statement, it feels scummy to say such a thing, even as a joke.
I disagree with this, zle, based solely on the fact that if you read Truffle's post to JJB it was a joke in response to a joke. Unless you believe that Truffle actually meant his "town can never be wrong so you're scum" comment
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On February 17 2015 00:24 rsoultin wrote:
Truffle, time to test that mindmeld...
what did you think I was doing with the push on Hier?
Pretty sure you were creating pressure from very little to get the thread going. I didn't say that earlier because saying so would defeat the purpose, as people could then refuse to respond.
Which is precisely the reason why Hier's case on you (rsoultin) falls apart. While the points he brought up are good points, this is the simple explanation from a town perspective.
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tere, why was mime (the player you replaced) nervous to post? xP
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On February 17 2015 00:26 rsoultin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2015 20:43 zlefin wrote:On February 16 2015 09:53 jarjarbinks wrote:On February 16 2015 09:31 Trfel wrote:On February 16 2015 09:29 jarjarbinks wrote:
Rsoultin: Do you actually believe Hier is scum or do you just disapprove of his idea? Town can be wrong right?
Maybe next game you can be mother hen xD lol Town can never be wrong. Your statement is wrong, so you are scum. lolz dang it you caught me! lol While I recognize it was done in jest, I still dislike this statement, it feels scummy to say such a thing, even as a joke. I disagree with this, zle, based solely on the fact that if you read Truffle's post to JJB it was a joke in response to a joke. Unless you believe that Truffle actually meant his "town can never be wrong so you're scum" comment
I did read the earlier post, and recognize it's likely to be a joke in response to a joke, I still don't like it though. And it's not like I have piles of reads to work with, so I'll take what I can get.
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On February 17 2015 00:30 rsoultin wrote:
tere, why was mime (the player you replaced) nervous to post? xP
Uh............
Tere, don't answer this question? XD
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On February 17 2015 00:28 Trfel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2015 00:24 rsoultin wrote:
Truffle, time to test that mindmeld...
what did you think I was doing with the push on Hier? Pretty sure you were creating pressure from very little to get the thread going. I didn't say that earlier because saying so would defeat the purpose, as people could then refuse to respond. Which is precisely the reason why Hier's case on you (rsoultin) falls apart. While the points he brought up are good points, this is the simple explanation from a town perspective.
Got it in one, lol. Okay, good, cause that's where our mindmeld starts to diverge :/
Even when I stepped back and gave him plenty of room to breathe, cause yeah, you were right that I can be intimidating and that defeats the purpose, he still was highly defensive and closed off. This makes me uncomfortable.
Another thing that makes me uncomfortable is your lack of direction so far this game, unless after sleeping you're still scumreading Shining? (I have to look at that case closer, and will do that while deciding whether or not to keep pushing Hier)
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On February 17 2015 00:33 Trfel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2015 00:30 rsoultin wrote:
tere, why was mime (the player you replaced) nervous to post? xP Uh............ Tere, don't answer this question? XD
Lol -amused- I wanted to see how flustered Tere got -flicks trfel- ruining my schemes ^^
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On February 17 2015 00:02 Trfel wrote:
Hi Tere.
On Hier, for now I am thinking that he is more likely to be town than scum. There is a definite difference between bad play and mafia, and while I don't see Hier's play as being particularly beneficial to town, I don't really see it being mafia-motivated.
Just want to be clear on what you're saying:
you're saying you have a town read on him, which, given the baseline probability of 77% of him being town, you're placing the odds of him being town at higher than that?
I ask because the statement "more likely to be town than scum" would technically be true of someone who had a 51% chance of being town.
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More thoughts on players - I'll do it post by post so I don't WOT you.
Trfel - I liked Trfel's tongue in cheek entry and attempt to engage the thread, I also thought his interactions with rso and the Shining in the next couple of pages looked unforced and relaxed. I liked the push to close the discussion on the Bridges method and the fair way he suggested to Hier that it be discussed post game. I liked the pushing of rso to be a little less hard on the newbies.
Here's the post of Trfel's on the Bridges method I liked: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=12#221
I liked the reaching out to rso - in general I feel Trfel is reaching out and trying to engage folk, and that's encouraging. There's little pockets of tongue in cheek amusement which feel towny also.
I'm not sure I am fully on board with Trfel's case against the Shining, but the slow progression and thought process look towny enough.
I'm going Town on Trfel for now.
I can see peeps are asking me questions from Trfel's filter so I will catch up on the thread and deal with that.
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On February 17 2015 00:35 rsoultin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2015 00:33 Trfel wrote:On February 17 2015 00:30 rsoultin wrote:
tere, why was mime (the player you replaced) nervous to post? xP Uh............ Tere, don't answer this question? XD Lol -amused- I wanted to see how flustered Tere got -flicks trfel- ruining my schemes ^^
You know very well why I posted that.
No need to read my original post on The Shining, the new version is coming very soon.
I still think we are largely in the same place. Just that we are interpreting the information slightly differently with regards to Hier. I'll take another look at Hier after I finish with The Shining.
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EPT
