EPT....also, for some reason I thought I posted the 'more to come'. Huh. Let me fix that too.
Newbie Mini Mafia LXI - Page 33
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Silverarte
115 Posts
....also, for some reason I thought I posted the 'more to come'. Huh. Let me fix that too. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On February 17 2015 22:20 zlefin wrote: I commented on it a few posts later.I'm disliking that Tere keeps asking people for their top two kills without having said her own. Feels like probing for information to join a wagon without committing; I think someone else already noted this as a potential issue, but I forget who, and it's not where I thought it would be (in trfels analysis post). I refuse to provide my top two kills until Tere actually does some scumhunting of her own. Scumhunting is one thing, but I am not going to scumhunt in the manner someone else tells me to for no reason. Why do I think that Tere wants everyone to provide their top two kills? Maybe to know where everyone stands, maybe to choose the best night kill for the mafia. Either way, you can use someone's filter to mostly figure out where everyone stands, and I would prefer the emphasis to be on cases and scumhunting than making everyone share their top kills. Note that the last time I saw someone make everyone share their top scumreads was when I was shadowing Artanis[Xp] in Imperial Mafia. He was mafia. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On February 17 2015 09:31 Tere wrote: Wait, Tere, this is your lynch pool?It would be awesome if the non Euros posted some reflections (and insomniac Euros). The Shining, Silverarte, zlefin and ElyAs, I'd particularly like to hear from you. (Yes I know ElyAs is in France. Shut up). Actually, I'd like to know everyone's top two scum picks right now. Cases would be awesome  Sleep tight! xx | ||
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
There's an extremely good town related reason why someone might want to get a town consensus on scum reads during the night phase, and it's not that hard to figure out. Just saying  Anyway, out to this bloody boring meeting. Back later. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On February 17 2015 19:57 Tere wrote: I get the sense that you are continually misinterpreting what I say, both here and other places. I clearly don't mean that anyone doing these things is sure scum, since I myself am probably the first player who comes to mind when you think of these things (and no, I'm not calling myself scum). I still think that these things are likely things for a scum player to do, though obviously quite possible to come from town. You can't expect me to have a 100% way to catch mafia.OK, reading through post lynch. I went to bed almost straight after, FWIW. With the first point, personally, I feel you are stretching a little there. I don't have an issue with indecision, and don't consider it a scum tell. It's very towny to be indecisive and change your reads and backtrack - I do it all the time. Yes, there's reasons that scum do it too, and distancing is one of them, but I wouldn't charge full pelt down the rabbit hole here. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On February 17 2015 22:43 Tere wrote: Yup. There's an extremely good town related reason why someone might want to get a town consensus on scum reads during the night phase, and it's not that hard to figure out. Just saying Anyway, out to this bloody boring meeting. Back later. that strikes me as rude. If you have a good reason, you should provide it. It feels like instead you want someone to come up with something that you can then say "yeah that was it", when you can't think of a good reason yourself. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On February 17 2015 22:56 zlefin wrote: To be fair, Tere is right, there are plenty of good reasons. There are also several bad ones. While the bad generally outweighs the good, I would still prefer people to play the game as they see fit. If they only have one scumread, so be it. If they have three, so be it. I am more interested in seeing reasoning than lists, as this seems to encourage. I almost feel that constantly badgering everyone for two scumreads gets in the way more than it helps.that strikes me as rude. If you have a good reason, you should provide it. It feels like instead you want someone to come up with something that you can then say "yeah that was it", when you can't think of a good reason yourself. On the bright side, it's a really nice way for Tere to look productive without scumhunting. | ||
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Silverarte
115 Posts
And Tere if I had two top shoots? You and probably Zlefin at this point. I'll address Zlefin in my next post, but in the meantime? Tere? On February 17 2015 22:39 Trfel wrote: I commented on it a few posts later. I refuse to provide my top two kills until Tere actually does some scumhunting of her own. Scumhunting is one thing, but I am not going to scumhunt in the manner someone else tells me to for no reason. Why do I think that Tere wants everyone to provide their top two kills? Maybe to know where everyone stands, maybe to choose the best night kill for the mafia. Either way, you can use someone's filter to mostly figure out where everyone stands, and I would prefer the emphasis to be on cases and scumhunting than making everyone share their top kills. Note that the last time I saw someone make everyone share their top scumreads was when I was shadowing Artanis[Xp] in Imperial Mafia. He was mafia. I'm only popping this up but I can find other instances as well of the similar complaint on the lines of "Wait! you want us to provide, but you won't?" There might be a legitimate reason for this. I'm sure there is! But really, this is still suspicious to me. Now, reviewing everything...why do I see more of the above, rather than scum hunting? | ||
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Silverarte
115 Posts
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Silverarte
115 Posts
On February 16 2015 21:14 zlefin wrote: Ok, I've reviewed the thread to date, and here's the score sheet I keep with my running tally estimates on town/scumminess, positive numbers are town, negative numbers are scum; the denominator represents the number of total read points for that person. i.e. each time I get a feel, I add or subtract one from the ongoing tally. Trfel 1/1 Shining rsoultin 1/1 elyas jarjar -2/2 mimeux hier 0/2 silver with mimeux out, and his replacement not yet in, I don't expect to get enough information on the replacement to have a read on them by voting time. I remain concerned about silver having no posts on the first real life day, and overall activity level. Now I gotta go back, find jarjars question to answer it, and then maybe review the people I don't have any read on to see if I can find something. my current lynch candidates are jarjar, hier, silver, trfel. The reason for trfel is that I feel trfel is a high information lynch. If he's scum, he's a skilled scum; and there's a lot of discussion between trfel and others, if I could go back through those discussions with the lynch knowledge of his alignment, I think that would provide a lot of other leads one way or the other. I think it would provide more information than anyone else's lynch. I'm all for the jumping in and reading here. I feel Zlefin did an ok job with trying to get in there....but... On February 16 2015 23:07 zlefin wrote: rsoultin is not on my lynch list, the lynch list was separate and later in the post. The points are positive indicate town reads, negative is scum reads. denominator is total reads one way or the other. I don't maintain a list of where each point comes from, though reasons for the majority of them will be somewhere in my filter with me saying something; others are more impressions over several posts or a large discussion. I suppose I should be more thorough in tracking them. I am giving some understanding for holiday, but it still seems odd to not find the time to put in a post or two even if you can't do a full thread read. I'm a person with plenty of time, so I tend to view others through the same lens. And I clearly misread the intial post with the points. However, I don't believe I ever got an answer to my questions. While we received answers in the ways of other posts the closer we got to the EOD (end of day, right?), I don't see how he particularly was engaged til significantly later after Tere jumped on board. That said, most of the involvement when it comes to 'original thought' centers on the point totals. I can appreciate the tracking system and its organization, but I'm floundering at the lack of detail, reasoning and the 'look through my filter' for the answers. Point totals are great, but while this can be used for 'pressure' it's not explanatory. I'm hesitant to follow something where - while it's clear it's working for Zle, where is the explanations/support/reasoning outside of "I feel this." Zlefin, would you mind clarifying for me? On February 15 2015 22:58 zlefin wrote: I can't explain my reads well, they're only quite mild reads at this point. For Trfel, it's partly a tonal read, and partly that he's encouraging discussion and trying to get things going. So he's either town, or a well-played (and hence dangerous) scum. For jarjar, it's just an impression, I can't really explain why. I know this is from when you started with us, but is this still the case? | ||
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Silverarte
115 Posts
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Trfel
7015 Posts
I will preface this by saying that for a mafia player to put themselves in a position where there is no possible town explanation for their actions, they have to really, really, really screw up. There will basically never be a time where you will get a case on mafia (excluding roles/setup/strong vote case) that can't be explained away. The question is, how much suspicion is there, and how reasonable is the explanation.
Tere, given these events, I don't think you can argue that you shouldn't be given some suspicion. Accept it and move on. Of course you can provide a logical town explanation, but if that criteria was used, town would basically never lynch anyone. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
The point totals are not something anyone else is meant to follow, it's simply letting people know where I'm at. I made the totals for myself, to help me keep track of my thoughts a little. I post them simply because it's very easy to copy/paste it and information tends to be good for town, and there's no issue with spam in these games in general, so I may as well post it in addition to whatever else I'm doing. As to what is now the case, well, my initial reads still are what they were; I don't get new reads on people of any sort very often. The most new reads are on Tere for the reasons I mentioned a bit ago (I assume it's so recent you don't need a reminder). I don't think I've been getting new tonal reads on people. (my memory could of course be faulty, as I don't keep timelapse data on my point system). What other clarifications would you like? | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On February 17 2015 23:28 Trfel wrote: Zlefin, I hope you can understand why people are skeptical of your list. It would be extremely nice if in the future, you could keep a list of why you read people as the alignment that you do for the individual points. This is also helpful for you, because if you decide that someone is scum, you can use these lists to quickly show why they are scum. I will try to be a little more detailed. But the points again are really more for my own use than for others, and I only copy/paste because it's easy to do so. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On February 17 2015 23:35 zlefin wrote: You do realize that you are at the top of most people's suspicions, right?I will try to be a little more detailed. But the points again are really more for my own use than for others, and I only copy/paste because it's easy to do so. Unfortunately, at the moment you are probably the top Day 2 lynch candidate. Fortunately for you, there is a lot of time to change this. Explaining where you get your reads is crucial for not being lynched, as without that there is absolutely no way for town to know if you are actually scumhunting or not. In addition, the more explanation you provide, it promotes more discussion, which is good. You can't be expected to solve the game by yourself, I am under the impression that even the very, very best players would have trouble doing so. Thus, we really appreciate hearing your thoughts, and simply seeing an unexplained tally of who you feel is scummy doesn't really help. I really need to do some homework. I'll check in later today. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
If I had thoughts I'd share them, and I have. Often I just don't. I can't give you what isn't there. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On February 17 2015 23:48 zlefin wrote: Do you mind maybe taking a look at someone's filter and recording your thoughts as you go through, and then posting all of your thoughts and your conclusion?I do realize that, but there's only so much I can do about that. I already explained my reads as best I could, often there wasn't anything I could point to back it up, it was just my impression. It is what it is and I can't change that. If people don't want to believe that I can't help that. If I had thoughts I'd share them, and I have. Often I just don't. I can't give you what isn't there. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
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Though, when you're around again, let me know what you think without all of the sleepiness there?
