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[Patch 4.11] Maokai Rework General Discussion

Forum Index > LoL General
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NeoIllusions
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States37500 Posts
July 01 2014 21:38 GMT
#1
Welcome to the Patch General Discussion thread for the League of Legends subforum. This thread is for discussion around League of Legends and the most recent patch. Free feel to talk about anything LoL related here that does not already have its own thread. While posting standards tend to be rather lax in this thread, pointless spam will not be tolerated.

Off-topic dicsussion should go in the Off-topic Discussion Thread.

Certain topics are blacklisted from LoL General Discussion and they include:
  • "Elo hell"
  • The Tribunal
  • Bans, either from TL.net or LoL
  • "What is a tank" (and other vague monikers)
  • Unjustified game theory
  • lomo

Additionally, the TL LoL Ten Commandments are available for you to reference if you have any questions about this subforum.

Use the LoL Strategy subforum if you have game or champion specific questions. Lastly, confine QQing and bragging to their respective threads.

There is no new champion this patch.

Patch 4.11: Live on July 2nd, 2014
+ Show Spoiler [Patch Notes] +

General


Kill dudes, buy boots. Turrets hit harder and ramp up faster. Lane minion experience range has been increased.



When we talk about 'snowballing' in League of Legends, we're mainly talking about teams rolling into victories through a single skirmish or unlucky fight without having to earn their win through multiple displays of skill. Like we've mentioned in our design values dev blog about mastery, we want to ensure there are systems in place that reward the consistently skilled team who can continually make intelligent choices - even when they're behind - to win the game.

Along that line of thought, back at the start of the 2014 season we made some 'anti-snowball' changes to First Blood mechanics so that it would still give rewards but not so much as to derail a game through one unsuccessful jungle invade. We still want to make sure League has exciting potential - even after first blood - but we felt we could spice up the incentives for successful early aggression.

As for the Turret and experience range changes, we wanted to make sure that Turrets remain a safe(ish) place to be in early levels and that players in 'lost' lanes (like 2v1 lanes or completely blown out matchups), can still function later in the game. While these upgrades are aimed specifically at competitive, they also affect other levels of play as players who fall behind in lane have virtually no safe place to hide. Finally, if the enemy team has a dive-heavy jungler (ie: Pantheon, Elise, Lee Sin, etc), weak turrets can skew champion diversity such that players can only choose champions who don't rely on turrets for protection (this is particularly true for solo lanes like top and mid).




Bounty Rewards


EARLY KILL LIMITS
Early kills now reward
60%
⇒
75% of normal value (scaling up to 100% at 4 minutes)

FIRST BLOOD BONUS
First Blood bonuses are unaffected by early kill reward limitations, so First Blood in the first 2 minutes of the game will now give
+280 gold
⇒
+325 gold

KILL STREAK BOUNTY
Personal bounty increases by
20%
⇒
16.5% per kill.

KILL STREAK BOUNTY CAP
Players will cap in value at 500 gold after
4 kills
⇒
5 kills




Turrets


PENETRATING BULLETS
Turrets now gain
+25%
⇒
37.5% damage per hit

WARMING UP
Turrets now finish 'warming up' after
3 hits
⇒
2 hits (maximum +75% bonus damage remains unchanged)

TURRET APM
Turrets select targets slightly faster




Experience


EXPERIENCE RANGE
Lane minions now grant experience at
1250
⇒
1400 range


Back to top


Champions


Braum


Braum's passive does less damage and the timing window that players have to activate his stun is now shorter.



While we're happy with how Braum does in equal matchups, he can still completely shut down a lane when he picks up a small advantage. These changes are to give a little more breathing room against this muscular shield man. As a clarification, the reduction in the debuff time to activate Concussive Blows means Braum (or his teammates) now have less time to proc the stun. It does not mean the stun lasts longer or that Braum can stun people more often (wouldn't that be terrifying).



Passive - Concussive Blows


DAMAGE
70 + 10 per level
⇒
50 + 12 per level

DEBUFF TIME TO PROC STUN
5 seconds
⇒
4 seconds



W - Stand Behind Me


C'MON BRAUM
Fixed a bug where when Braum tried to jump over a wall to a teammate with an enemy nearby, he would try to protect his teammate by facing the enemy, but would then smack his butt into the wall and not actually jump over to safety. Braum now jumps more intelligently.




Heimerdinger




General


newCLARITY
Added a new 'Turret Focus Target' particle for Heimerdinger when he marks an opponent for Turret death

newCLARITY
Added new 'Turret Aggro' and 'Turret Focus Aggro' particles for the player being shot by Heimerdinger's turrets




Jax


Even though Jax is intended to be a champ that scales well into the late game, he's currently so well-rounded that 'scaling well' ultimately turns him into an offensive brick wall with very few defensive weaknesses.



General


BASE HEALTH
561
⇒
535

HEALTH PER LEVEL
+98
⇒
+85

ARMOR PER LEVEL
+3.5
⇒
+3.0




Karthus




R - Requiem


BUGFIX
Fixed a bug where Requiem's team ult HUD indicator (green dot on the left!) would display as available even when it wasn't




Kayle


Kayle gets less attack speed per level and her E scales less with ability power. Intervention's cooldown has been increased.



Kayle has a ton of strengths - good damage, safe laning, high utility, great wave clear, fancy wings - and not too many weaknesses. Initially we wanted to only hit Kayle's high offensive power so we could continue to emphasize her utility, but saw it just wasn't enough to reduce her fervor in a meaningful way. All of these changes, combined, should help in clipping some of Kayle's high power across the board.



General


ATTACK SPEED PER LEVEL
+2.5
⇒
+2.2



E - Righteous Fury


BONUS ABILITY POWER RATIO
+0.4 ability power
⇒
+0.2 ability power



R - Intervention


COOLDOWN
90/75/60 seconds
⇒
110/95/80 seconds




Lucian


We have no change for Lucian this patch but wanted to highlight that he's currently high on our list. Specifically in competitive play, Lucian is crowding out almost all other marksman choices (aside from maybe Kog'Maw) due to his high general strengths and lack of meaningful weaknesses (does this sound familiar?). We're currently very aware of Lucian's dominating performance but want to make sure we get the right changes in to give him said weaknesses!



General


Very Strong
Yes
⇒
Still yes




Maokai


Maokai is now a sentient purple people protector. Mana costs and damage on Maokai's abilities have gone down, but he's gained increased disruption with W on a lower cooldown and his Saplings slowing whoever they explode on. W's range has gone down so Maokai doesn't just become a nonstop ganking tree. Vengeful Maelstrom now centers on Maokai and travels with him.



These changes are to give Maokai more of a 'core' identity as a defensive peeling support tank who can disrupt the baddies that jump on his squishy friends. Some of you might be asking: why so much change for the tree? Old Maokai might not be the strongest jungler on the scene but he's still very capable of shutting down entire lanes in the early to mid game while not contributing much to later teamfights. These updates let us balance around new Maokai kit without bringing back the Maokai pain train of Season 2 (such nonstop reliable tower dives, wow).



Q - Arcane Smash


span class="attribute">SLOW DURATION
2 seconds
⇒
1.5 seconds

COST
55 mana
⇒
45 mana



W - Twisted Advance


removedCAST TIME
Maokai no longer has to 'wind up' before advancing to an enemy (travel time remains the same)

DAMAGE
80/115/150/185/220 (+0.8 ability power)
⇒
9/10.5/12/13.5/15% + (0.04 ability power)% of target's maximum health

COST
75/80/85/90/95 mana
⇒
75 mana at all ranks

COOLDOWN
13 seconds at all ranks
⇒
13/12/11/10/9 seconds

RANGE
650
⇒
525



E - Sapling Toss


newSPEEDY SAPLINGS
Sapling movement speed now scales with Maokai's bonus movement speed

newANNOYING SAPLINGS
Enemies damaged by a sapling explosion are now slowed by 50% for 1 second

SAPLING BASE MOVEMENT SPEED
475
⇒
450

LANDING MAGIC DAMAGE
40/75/110/145/180 (+0.4 ability power)
⇒
40/60/80/100/120 (+0.4 ability power)

EXPLOSION MAGIC DAMAGE
80/130/180/230/280 (+0.6 ability power)
⇒
80/120/160/200/240 (+0.6 ability power)

COST
70/80/90/100/110 mana
⇒
60/70/80/90/100 mana



R - Vengeful Maelstrom


newUTILITY
Vengeful Maelstrom is now self-cast and circles Maokai instead of sitting in a targeted area

newGOOD JOB MAOKAI
Vengeful Maelstrom now shows (through combat text) how much damage Maokai is mitigating for his teammates (this is only visible to Maokai)

INITIAL COST
75 mana
⇒
40 mana

RADIUS
550
⇒
475




Nautilus


More anchors to the face.



When we were making the Ancient Golem and Quill Coat changes for tanky support junglers, we knew there were a few who needed some extra help to succeed in the modern game (like Nautilus). Here we saw some easy wins for Nautilus to scale into the late game while also adding... CLARITY!



Passive - Staggering Blow


newCLARITY!
There is now an indicator showing how long until you can use Staggering Blow on same target

UTILITY
Nautilus can now trigger this effect on the same target every
9 seconds at all ranks
⇒
9/8/7/6 seconds (at levels 1/6/11/16)




Nidalee


It's a little tough to explain these changes so you'll have to read them. Sorry!



Following Nidalee's Gameplay Update, we undershot on her overall power levels so we're giving her some small buffs and game flow improvements as we continue to watch players pick up on her new playstyle. These might look like a lot of changes, but they're really focused on helping Nidalee succeed at her cat games. One big goal here is to help Nidalee trigger her Hunting mechanic more reliably while not always getting her killed when she jumps into the fight.



General


Base Health
370
⇒
390

Base Armor
15
⇒
17



Passive - Prowl


newSPEEDY CAT
Nidalee now receives +10% Movement Speed in all directions while Hunting, which increases to +30% movement speed toward Hunted targets

KITTY SPEED LIMITS
At any one time, Nidalee can never receive more than a total of +30% Movement Speed from The Hunt and Brush movement speed bonuses



Q - Javelin Toss


JAVELIN WIDTH
30
⇒
40



W - Bushwhack


CLARITY
Targets that trigger a trap are now only marked as Hunted if Nidalee is within 3000 units of them

COOLDOWN
17/15/13/11/9 seconds
⇒
13/12/11/10/9 seconds

DAMAGE
12/14/16/18/20% of target's current health
⇒
10/12/14/16/18% of target's current health

BUGFIX
Fixed a bug where Bushwhack could reveal enemy wards when an enemy unit affected by Bushwhack walked over them



W - Pounce


HUNTED POUNCE RANGE
700
⇒
750

HUNTED POUNCE JUMP LOCATION
Pouncing on a Hunted target now puts Nidalee
150 units to the opposite side of the target
⇒
75 units in the direction the target is facing



E - Primal Surge


COST
60/80/100/120/140 mana
⇒
60/75/90/105/120 mana



R - Aspect Of The Cougar


newQUICKDRAW KITTY
Triggering The Hunt resets Aspect of the Cougar's cooldown if Nidalee is in Human form




Rengar




E - Empowered Bola Strike


BUGFIX
Empowered Bola Strike now correctly slows on top of the root




Skarner


When we made changes to Skarner back in patch 4.10, we had to tune down some of his offensive power in favor of his sticky Skarner-ness. Now that the loneliest scorpion has made his way to the live game, we're seeing he's still doing a lot of damage on top of his disruptive play so we're dialing him back just a bit.



Q - Crystal Slash


PHYSICAL DAMAGE
20/32/44/56/68
⇒
18/28/38/48/58

BONUS MAGIC DAMAGE
20/32/44/56/68
⇒
18/28/38/48/58

BONUS MOVEMENT SPEED
+3/4/5/6/7% per stack of Crystal Energy
⇒
+2/3/4/5/6% per stack of Crystal Energy



R - Impale


SKARNERFIX
Fixed a bug where Skarner could occasionally throw out basic attacks while impaling a target




Vladimir


We think the world is ready for a Vlad who can use Flash after he's entered his Sanguine Pool. Or Ghost. Or Heal. OR ZHONYA'S HOURGLASS?!



W - Sanguine Pool


newUTILITY
Vladimir can now cast summoner spells and use items while in his troll pool




Yasuo


As a nimble fighter, Yasuo should be balancing his offense and defense throughout the laning phase. Right now, however, Yasuo's ability to stack up excessive amounts of extra damage on Sweeping Blade (particularly at early levels) means he can quickly bully out opponents before they have the chance to retaliate.



E - Sweeping Blade


BONUS DAMAGE CAP
100% at 4 stacks
⇒
50% at 2 stacks




Zac


Like Nautilus, when we were making the Ancient Golem and Quill Coat changes for tanky support junglers, we knew there were a few who needed some extra help to succeed in the modern game. For Zac, it was a simple matter of bouncing up his early clear speeds while also giving his sustained damage an elastic stretch in the right direction.



W - Unstable Matter


newUNSTABLER MATTER
Picking up a chunklet reduces the cooldown of Unstable Matter by 1 second

newUNSTABLEST MATTER
Whenever Zac hits a jungle monster with Unstable Matter, he can walk through the monster (to pick up chunklets)

COOLDOWN
4 seconds
⇒
5 seconds




Ziggs


Ziggs moves slower and his bombs got skinnier.



Right now we see Ziggs as having a unique strategic fit in the game (stalling out to let his teammates ramp up in strength), but he's a little too safe in lane and still has a lot of explosive power to carry his team to a win when he gets ahead. Adding on these strengths, Ziggs is also a well-rounded, consistent champion who can do a lot of things at once, so we're looking for ways to add more risk or unreliability to his kit.



General


MOVEMENT SPEED
330
⇒
325



Q - Bouncing Bomb


EXPLOSION TRIGGER DETECTION RADIUS
180
⇒
150




Embiggened Champions


This might be a nerf (or buff if you enjoy eating skill shots) to the following champions, but we want to ensure for the sake of clarity that their hitboxes always match their visual representation.


HITBOX
The following champions had smaller than average hitboxes so we've increased them to the average hitbox size. In other words, we've added 27.3% Teemos to each champion's overall hitbox (from 50 units all around to 65 units all around) but there should be no visual change:


Shyvana



Thresh



Vi





Updated Splashes


Given their high visibility, we're taking a broad look at base champion splashes throughout our roster and showing some love to older ones that are showing their age. Caitlyn and Urgot are first out of the gate; keep an eye out for more over the next few patches!


SPLASH
Several champions have received updated splashes:


Caitlyn



Urgot



Back to top


Items


Sustain-focused tanky junglers now have an item build path that supports their playstyle from Hunter's Machete to Quill Coat to Spirit of the Ancient Golem. These new (and newly changed) items give high regeneration stats while ensuring jungle monsters can be taken down in a decent timeframe from the mid to late game.



The problem with the old Hunter's Machete and Spirit Stone items (at least for tanky sustained junglers) was that they were too damage-focused to really help the slow and steady Maokaii and Nautilii (Maokais? Nautiluses?) of the world. As a result, these tanky dudes fell out of favor against damage-heavy junglers like Kha'Zix and Pantheon or early pressure/utility junglers like Lee Sin and Elise. While these changes may not directly shift the landscape back to equal footing, we want to at least offer a meaningful choice for those who want to play the utility tank jungler.

To focus on the changes themselves, our goal here is to 'normalize' jungle clear speeds so that even a utility jungler can clear reasonably well throughout the game - even without buying a damage item. The solution to add Sapping Barbs (and make it based off a percent of maximum health) means that once a jungler gets a Quill Coat / Spirit of the Ancient Golem, they'll be guaranteed to clear a jungle camp within a set period of time. Adding a ward to Quill Coat and Ancient Golem also gives tanky junglers a way to fight back against high-pressure junglers through superior vision control, rather than giving more stats to out-duel the duelists. Final point: Spirit of the Ancient Golem scales with bonus health, so you'll need to be building health to see bigger gains.




Jungle Items




Hunter's Machete


PRICE
300 gold
⇒
325 gold

newDAMAGE REDUCTION
+5 Damage Reduction vs. Monsters

newBONUS DAMAGE
+10 Attack Damage vs. Monsters

removedMAIMLESS
No longer has the UNIQUE Passive: Maim

removedBUTCHERLESS
No longer has the UNIQUE Passive: Butcher



new Quill Coat


RECIPE
Hunter's Machete + Cloth Armor + 75 gold

TOTAL COST
700 gold

ARMOR
+20

PASSIVE
Sapping Barbs: Attacking monsters lose 5% of their maximum health over 3 seconds (up to 150). Wearer gains +40 health regeneration per 5 seconds and +30 mana regeneration per 5 seconds when in combat with monsters.

ACTIVE
Hunter's Ward: Places a Stealth Ward that reveals the surrounding area for 180 seconds (180 second cooldown)



Spirit of the Ancient Golem


newRECIPE
Quill Coat + Kindle Gem + 450 gold

TOTAL COST
2000 gold (unchanged)

HEALTH
+350
⇒
+200

COOLDOWN REDUCTION
+10% (unchanged)

newARMOR
+0
⇒
+20

newBONUS HEALTH
+25% Bonus Health

newPASSIVE
Sapping Barbs: Attacking monsters lose 5% of their maximum Health over 3 seconds (up to 195). Wearer gains +60 health regeneration per 5 seconds and +45 mana regeneration per 5 seconds when in combat with monsters.

newACTIVE
Hunter's Ward: Places a Stealth Ward that reveals the surrounding area for 180 seconds (180 second cooldown)

removedTENACITYLESS
No longer has the UNIQUE Passive: Tenacity

removedBUTCHERLESS
No longer has the UNIQUE Passive: Butcher



Spirit Stone


COMBINE COST
40 gold
⇒
15 gold (total cost remains the same)



Madred's Razors


TOTAL COST
750 gold
⇒
775 gold



Wriggle's Lantern


COMBINE COST
240 gold
⇒
215 gold (total cost remains the same)




Attack Damage Items




While we realize that Essence Reaver probably needs more tweaks before it'll be in an optimal state, we want to keep it in the spotlight to show that we're committed to supporting this build path for marksman (ie: Ezreal, Corki and Sivir) that should like it.

Essence Reaver



ATTACK DAMAGE
50
⇒
60


Back to top


Ranked Duo Queue


We're introducing a new restriction for ranked duo queues so players can only duo queue with teammates ranked within one full tier above or below them. We found that the vast majority of duos are already between players within these thresholds and this change will allow us to curb some of the potential abuse cases we see under the current matchmaking system.

In the case of unseeded players, the new system allows for duo queuing with Gold, Silver and Bronze players while their skill level is still being assessed. After they've been placed, the usual restrictions will apply.

  • Players may only queue for ranked duo games with players ranked within one full tier above or below them. For example, a Silver III player may duo with players ranked anywhere from Bronze V to Gold I.

  • Unseeded players who were ranked in solo queue during the previous season will use that rank to determine duo eligibility.

  • Unseeded players who have never been ranked in solo queue are able to duo queue with Gold, Silver or Bronze players.




Back to top


Bots


With our bot updates in Patch 4.6, we were able to take bots off their purple leash and introduce a little variety to which side players end up on. This has been a great addition for our Co-op vs AI enthusiasts, but it's a little jarring for new players trying to get a handle on how the game is played. In order to meet each group's needs, bots in Beginner Co-op matches will go back to always being the Purple team while Intermediate matches will continue to sometimes give Blue side to the bots.

  • Bots in Beginner-level Co-op vs AI matches will always play from Purple side



Back to top


Public Chat Rooms


Public chat rooms aren't really serving their purpose at the moment as they're often filled with scams, spam and phishing attempts. This can create a pretty negative experience, especially for new players, so we're disabling them while we investigate long-term solutions.

  • Public Chat Rooms have been disabled




Back to top


Bugfixes


  • Muting players in-game no longer unfriends them or puts them on your Blocked list

    • As a result, accidental mutes no longer reset Mystery Gifting's 2-week restriction on sending Mystery Gifts to new friends

  • 'Ignore' tools have been relabeled as 'Block' to clarify their functionality




Back to top


Upcoming Skins


The following skins will be released at various times throughout Patch 4.11:





Hazmat Heimerdinger



Soulstealer Vladimir






+ Show Spoiler [Previous GD Threads & Patch Notes] +
Nidalee/Skarner Rework General Discussions
RIP Kha'Zix General Discussion
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CUDDLY INCOMING! ヽ(*・ω・)ノ
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Worlds Championship General Discussion
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Yimake General Discussion
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Aatrox General Discussion
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Nerf Everything Not Nami General Discussion
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Quinn General Discussion
Patch 3.02 General Discussion
Season 3 General Discussion
Preseason Balance Update 2
Preseason Balance Update 1
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Twisted Fate Update General Discussion
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Rengar General Discussions
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Spectator Mode General Discussion
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ModeratorFor the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Discord: NeoIllusions#1984
Slusher
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States19143 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-01 21:42:13
July 01 2014 21:41 GMT
#2
Some people, like myself, find normals a completely fucking useless exercise. Its the exact same thing as ranked but you have nothing to show for it.


3-4 player q is really important to me. and starting tomorrow bronze-gold as well. it only takes me 10 games to get skin reward so I get everything I want from ranked in 10 games
Carrilord has arrived.
NeoIllusions
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States37500 Posts
July 01 2014 21:43 GMT
#3
Some of you care a little too much about ranks and numbers.
Just play the game and measure yourself on how you personally do? It's asking for a lot, I know.
ModeratorFor the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Discord: NeoIllusions#1984
obesechicken13
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10467 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-01 21:58:48
July 01 2014 21:44 GMT
#4
Oddone streaming over the patch notes.

Edit: It's over.

RIP AP Kayle.
I think in our modern age technology has evolved to become more addictive. The things that don't give us pleasure aren't used as much. Work was never meant to be fun, but doing it makes us happier in the long run.
Slusher
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States19143 Posts
July 01 2014 21:48 GMT
#5
as far as the patch notes go I'm really glad they've toned down the anti snowballing, and the tower changes combined with exp devalue lane swaps, combined with the fact that early Dragon gold is OP atm, I think riot might have made some changes that aren't convoluted but prevent swaps anyway, time will tell.

also lol at bruiser Nidalee buffs, pretty sure her bad numbers were based on people trying to play her the same as pre patch. can you imagine playing a junlger with a nidalee top with this new buffed FB gold?? gank that lane once and laugh your way to the freelo
Carrilord has arrived.
Fusilero
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United Kingdom50293 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-01 21:52:08
July 01 2014 21:50 GMT
#6
On July 02 2014 06:43 NeoIllusions wrote:
Some of you care a little too much about ranks and numbers.
Just play the game and measure yourself on how you personally do? It's asking for a lot, I know.

I don't get the obsession with ranks, I just kinda take it one match at a time and then "oh I'm plat now yay". Idk I stopped thinking about ranks a long time ago, if I keep improving I'll reach higher ranks in time anyway.
I hope jax nerfs means he'll finally be off the permaban list, jax has been one of my favourites for so long but since he got permabanned everything kinda sucks, irelia/shyvana just never do it for me like jax did
Glorious SEA doto
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-01 21:52:22
July 01 2014 21:51 GMT
#7
I just lost a game, for the most part, because pathing glitches made me die instead of killing my opponent twice (came down to 30 HP for him both times, and any spell or auto did more than that).
Give me back s2, with the fat minions who at least didn't have a hitbox that made them worse than dragoons to navigate.

About the Skarner thing, he can Q during hisult, but shouldn't be able to auto.

Uh... this ranked game just banned Teemo, Poppy, Nunu, Sion, Taric, Janna. I guess the draft should be "interesting" (I'm more afraid of having to deal with all the retarded shit like Braum, Kayle, Nidalee, Kassadin and Rengar all in one game though).
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
Zess
Profile Joined July 2012
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
July 01 2014 21:51 GMT
#8
On July 02 2014 01:34 cLutZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 02 2014 00:37 xes wrote:
The advantage of the new league system is that Gold V 90 LP is not view as any better or worse than Gold V 45 LP, whereas the granularity of MMR means that small difference are amplified, especially at the XX90 mark, where 1500 is somehow much different than 1490.

This is the same argument why the high level of granularity in SAT scores amplifies the noise rather than bringing any meaningful indicators of performance (and why in signal processing in general, if the incoming information is garbage you can't make it more meaningful no matter how much you amplify it because you just introduce noise).

Sat noise isn't very large. In fact people cry about Sat scores just like they did elo because it's harder to accept how actually a number can define your aptitude (in fact very accurately).

There are a number of issues with your argument.

1) MMR via Elo rating has inherent to the system a noise gate: the K factor logistic distribution coefficient. Thus at the optimum, MMR is still not very precise (which is the argument we're going for here, not accuracy. MMR is accurate, but so is the League system. What we're discussing here is whether the League system obfuscation eliminates precision, and the argument is that the extra precision of MMR is just noise).

2) The SAT example works better in one direction than the other: people's opinions of their own skill suffer from heavy selection bias on MMR sampling, taking only the highest number from a streak or rounding numbers near multiples of 100 up; SAT scores suffer similarly from poor sampling (although not from selection bias, but because you have to pay money to take it, it is grueling to take, and it is not offered in the frequency to derive an appropriate distribution). In addition, as with MMR rounding, the pursuit of round numbers heavily drives SAT retaking [n/b: no emprical evidence of rounding and selection bias in MMR reporting, but no one else has data for that either so let's just win it].

So while I am relying on sophistry and a bit of anecdotal ass-talking to say that MMR noise and the lack of precision in granular MMR scores is like SAT, it is much more difficult to argue that MMR is precise like SAT (because in the optimum scenario, MMR is in fact much more precise than SAT scores).

3) While MMR precision is statistically well-defined, the idea of self-perception of skill as driven by granular MMR is what we are arguing as much less precise. In season 2, no one said "I am currently a 1200 player with a peak at 1350 and a lower support at 1150, my k-factor is 8." Even if Riot provided variance information (or you could sample your own via MMR tracking), there is almost no accessible intuition about statistical distributions, especially the logistic one which has fatter tails.

So if MMR is internalized as a biased (statistical sense, as well as cognitive one) estimator that is then rounded, are we really losing precision by hiding that and instead displaying leagues which are just giant MMR buckets?
Administrator@TL_Zess
| (• ◡•)|八 (❍ᴥ❍ʋ)
MooMooMugi
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States10531 Posts
July 01 2014 21:56 GMT
#9
Spirit of the Ancient Golem is going to be so strong now.... sucks about the tenacity removal but you can just build mercs to make up for that
|LoL & SC2 IGN both my username| Just livin' the baylife| Hearthstone ID: MooMooMugi#1544| Dank Memer since 2011
Terranasaur
Profile Joined May 2011
United States2085 Posts
July 01 2014 22:00 GMT
#10
Never noticed those hitboxes before. Did they seem small to anyone?
Decisions Determine Destiny - Terranasaur#1719 D3 #557 SC2 3DS FC: 2423-3623-8068
LightningStrike
Profile Joined February 2011
United States14277 Posts
July 01 2014 22:01 GMT
#11
Thanks for the buff for Elise Riot :D New SoTAG is going to make her even better when going for the cdr build!
May the next light shine/Former #1 Alliance LoL fan/ Current Teamliquid LoL Fan
Slusher
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States19143 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-01 22:07:46
July 01 2014 22:07 GMT
#12
On July 02 2014 07:01 LightningStrike wrote:
Thanks for the buff for Elise Riot :D New SoTAG is going to make her even better when going for the cdr build!


I would argue not being able to get tenacity and CDR boots at the same time is a net nerf. I actually think this change makes golem bad on her.
Carrilord has arrived.
GhandiEAGLE
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States20754 Posts
July 01 2014 22:07 GMT
#13
Excited for new Maokai, one of my favorite champions ^_^
Oh, my achin' hands, from rakin' in grands, and breakin' in mic stands
Kinie
Profile Joined December 2011
United States3106 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-01 22:20:30
July 01 2014 22:15 GMT
#14
The loss of Tenacity on SotAG is what will keep the tanky junglers out of play still. If they had left the tenacity on then I think we'd see more Naut, Zac, and Maokai. Now the jungler will have to spend an extra 200-400 (or so) gold to get tenacity (previously they build Tabi or CDR boots).

Though with the new item, I will give it a try on Zac (as he was the champion that got me to be a jungler) and see if it's good on him or not. I think I'll probably end up going something like SotAG > Merc Treads > Randuins > BV > Ryleis > Warmogs, just try to have a billion HP and be able to ult and not get instagibed in the middle of it.

Ziggs nerf will probably knock him out of competetive play, Kayle nerf on the ult finally, but she'll probably turn into more of a late game AP carry now, as she'll need one more AP item after the normal buy of Nashors + Raba to deal the damage she currently does (just means she basically has to get Lich Bane now instead of it being an option). Braum nerf is fine, Yasuo nerf is basically going to punish people maxing E first now, probably make them go 3 points into E then max Q.

I refuse to comment on Maokai as I have played 0 games as him, so I have no idea on how the changes are good/bad for him.
Slusher
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States19143 Posts
July 01 2014 22:27 GMT
#15
nerf doesn't change what is op about Ziggs, his ability to stall games is untouched.
Carrilord has arrived.
Kinie
Profile Joined December 2011
United States3106 Posts
July 01 2014 22:30 GMT
#16
On July 02 2014 07:27 Slusher wrote:
nerf doesn't change what is op about Ziggs, his ability to stall games is untouched.


The ability to defend your towers isn't changed, what changes is his ability to siege an enemy tower. You can't just throw your bombs out willy-nilly anymore and still see them hit like you can right now.
zer0das
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States8519 Posts
July 01 2014 22:32 GMT
#17
Those are a lot of Kayle nerfs. She kind of deserves it, but yeesh.

Also, Nid getting speed in bushes again regardless... great.
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35131 Posts
July 01 2014 22:33 GMT
#18
On July 02 2014 07:30 Kinie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 02 2014 07:27 Slusher wrote:
nerf doesn't change what is op about Ziggs, his ability to stall games is untouched.


The ability to defend your towers isn't changed, what changes is his ability to siege an enemy tower. You can't just throw your bombs out willy-nilly anymore and still see them hit like you can right now.

The only thing that reduced his ability to do that would be mana or cooldown changes. Either way, you're still throwing bombs into a crowd.
Slusher
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States19143 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-01 22:42:59
July 01 2014 22:35 GMT
#19
tower dives also got nerfed so I would say Ziggs is actually buffed overall in this patch.

which really is riot balance at it's finest lol. I hate the fact that they balance every 2 weeks but if you are going to do it why so much at once? why nerf 3 things about Kayle in 1 patch if there will be another patch in 2 weeks? why nerf snowballing and buff exp range in the same patch?

Carrilord has arrived.
obesechicken13
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10467 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-01 23:04:27
July 01 2014 22:40 GMT
#20
On July 02 2014 07:15 Kinie wrote:
Ziggs nerf will probably knock him out of competetive play, Kayle nerf on the ult finally, but she'll probably turn into more of a late game AP carry now, as she'll need one more AP item after the normal buy of Nashors + Raba to deal the damage she currently does (just means she basically has to get Lich Bane now instead of it being an option).

If Kayle has a greater than 50% winrate after that AP ratio nerf, using AP builds, I'll eat my own hat.
+ Show Spoiler +
I don't really have a hat


I think Yas is a snowbally champion. Like by the numbers his autoattack damage with IE + shiv gold is higher than any other champion, just like on paper AD Sion can duel anyone. But getting to that point for Yasuo is hard since he loses duels in my experience early. And Sion just gets kited.
I think in our modern age technology has evolved to become more addictive. The things that don't give us pleasure aren't used as much. Work was never meant to be fun, but doing it makes us happier in the long run.
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