The following is a collection of threads representing recent thought on StarCraft in the Brood War Strategy forum. The purpose of this collection is to be a place for new and veteran players alike to read up on current conversation about this game. The date of the thread creation is given to provide context, and will be ordered chronologically.
! [G] Timing [i]Chill Canada. January 26 2008 08:34
Day9 stuff
If you are familiar with Day9's more recent stuff, don't let that scare you off from these podcasts and videos. If you want reliable, insightful strategy discussion, these are all you really need. He covers pretty much everything at a time close enough to the end of pro Brood War that it never became irrelevant.
and maybe one day I will get around to editing the OP with it. It doesn't have to be that recent, just has to seem applicable to modern play. Doesn't have to be a straight up BO guide either, if you think there's a good discussion with a lot of insight that's alright too.
If nothing else this can be a quick reference for contributors to see what's been posted, what areas are poorly discussed etc. All I did was go thru the last 12 pages or something of the forum looking for anything that looked like a guide.
Nice collections I'll make sure to peruse this soon and contribute Do you think 2v2 Strategy threads are worth adding since 2v2 is still a popular game mode? The old "Recommended Threads" thread had 3 decent ones
And what about this thread: Zerg Guide By Ahzz Ahzz Finland. June 13 2008 19:15 It has still plenty of useful information, I guess, it is sort of accompanied by this: Ahzz FPVODs Ahzz Finland. April 30 2009 22:33 Dunno, whether all videos work now...
Finally another old one, needs verification, though(and I am not T): ! [G] DaZe advice for T's DaZe Sweden. February 08 2007 21:26
[url=http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=89286]! [G]The art of TvZ Han Bang-1 Vessel 3 Tank Timing[/url] [small][i]petzergling March 11 2009 00:33[/i][/small]
I read about 12 pages of that and it's kinda gross, but I added it anyway for completeness Here's a gem:
Losing to stupid things will happen and there might be a point where you can beat a decent player who plays correctly yet lose to a poor one who uses inferior strategies.
Straight out of Idra's diary hahaha. I would advise Day9 over Ver, since they take on the same topics but Day strikes me as vastly more realistic and understanding of how to develop strategies as well as skill. Ver is also very wordy and uncharismatic in his style, insulting pros and taking a whole page or two to say 'probably a good idea to study Flash cause he's the best.' By contrast on the same topic Day has said things like choose a pro's style which you LIKE and WANT to play, which is probably a much more effective way to make your brain care about what you're learning. "copy flash" is pretty derpy advice.
Could we use this thread to collect strategical videos too? I think that would make it the ultimate strategy thread in the BW forums here. I really want to link to stylish's thread, but it is mostly strategy vids, rather than a guide perhaps. Also ifu.pauline's last two vids would fit if that were the case.
The main reason why I sticked this one and unstickied the other one, is to try to make the Strategy forum more relevant to today. You can all, and are encouraged to, help with this!
While I love the Hydra ZvZ thread and it is beautiful, do you think this is the best place for it? If the purpose of this is to make it easier for beginners to find good places to learn putting Hydra ZvZ there might throw them off...maybe add an extra section for stuff like The Stove and Hydra ZvZ? Idk what it would be titled tho...
Ok, I removed both my guides (macro theory + hydra zvz). I don't want to argue too much since obviously I'm biased, but my criteria for adding links to this thread was 'does it look like it had some time put into it.' Since both mine were done in the last year or two, they were also most appropriate for current thought. My ZvZ guide had some info about how one goes about learning a new build.
I think both Hydra ZvZ and The Stove are legit ;p I don't mind Kau's proxy hatch guide either (although I prefer Maejang's proxy hatch style myself). Ultimately I think they teach the new players important things. I didn't think of the purpose of this thread as being a destination just for beginners though. It's just an easy reference for all the guides that would otherwise be really annoying to find, goofy or otherwise. I'm not adding a new section because I don't feel like passing judgement on everyone's threads. Even beginners will be able to tell if a guide is for them or not. The special Day9 section is basically my way of saying 'but if you want actually good info, go here' and his ZvZ VODs are very insightful and almost the reason I don't bother writing a guide on more standard ZvZ, since I'd just be repeating things he said.
There is absolutely no legitmacy to removing the mentioned guides from this thread. This is supposed to be a collection of strategy threads; not a selection. Removing them makes this thread obsolete and is in no way better for a beginner who then oftentimes never even realizes these strategies exist. What happens when a new zerg player only reads that zvz is played with muta-ling etc and then encounters hydra ZvZ which he has never even heard of? Well I can give you a hint: he has no idea what is going on.
Reading a guide helps one understand not only how to execute a build, but also through that what strategies might work against it. The hydra ZvZ guide contains replays of good players playing against this style and in one of them the non-hydra ZvZer wins IIRC. Further more, last year Technics used hydras in a ZvZ vs Sziky on HBR in RO8 of the biggest tour at that time. How is this not relevant?
edit: Also, just like with any unorthodox play,, a new player needs to know about the Stove's existence to be able to understand what is going on when facing it.
On December 04 2013 15:49 Jaevlaterran wrote: There is absolutely no legitmacy to removing the mentioned guides from this thread. This is supposed to be a collection of strategy threads; not a selection. Removing them makes this thread obsolete and is in no way better for a beginner who then oftentimes never even realizes these strategies exist. What happens when a new zerg player only reads that zvz is played with muta-ling etc and then encounters hydra ZvZ which he has never even heard of? Well I can give you a hint: he has no idea what is going on.
Reading a guide helps one understand not only how to execute a build, but also through that what strategies might work against it. The hydra ZvZ guide contains replays of good players playing against this style and in one of them the non-hydra ZvZer wins IIRC. Further more, last year Technics used hydras in a ZvZ vs Sziky on HBR in RO8 of the biggest tour at that time. How is this not relevant?
edit: Also, just like with any unorthodox play,, a new player needs to know about the Stove's existence to be able to understand what is going on when facing it.
because some strategies will actually slow down a player's development due to the vast array of strategies out there and some of them being very bad in the current meta game. They should be separated. Keep the old articles, but make sure newcomers know that they are outdated.
edit: it would be nice if there was a BO and strat guide for 3 hatch muta for ZvT.
Add SuperJongMan's TvZ 1 Rax CC Build. Let me see if I can find it, though. Strange. It's not on the database. Maybe someone else might have better luck.
On December 04 2013 15:49 Jaevlaterran wrote: There is absolutely no legitmacy to removing the mentioned guides from this thread. This is supposed to be a collection of strategy threads; not a selection. Removing them makes this thread obsolete and is in no way better for a beginner who then oftentimes never even realizes these strategies exist. What happens when a new zerg player only reads that zvz is played with muta-ling etc and then encounters hydra ZvZ which he has never even heard of? Well I can give you a hint: he has no idea what is going on.
Reading a guide helps one understand not only how to execute a build, but also through that what strategies might work against it. The hydra ZvZ guide contains replays of good players playing against this style and in one of them the non-hydra ZvZer wins IIRC. Further more, last year Technics used hydras in a ZvZ vs Sziky on HBR in RO8 of the biggest tour at that time. How is this not relevant?
edit: Also, just like with any unorthodox play,, a new player needs to know about the Stove's existence to be able to understand what is going on when facing it.
because some strategies will actually slow down a player's development due to the vast array of strategies out there and some of them being very bad in the current meta game. They should be separated. Keep the old articles, but make sure newcomers know that they are outdated.
edit: it would be nice if there was a BO and strat guide for 3 hatch muta for ZvT.
Well ofc they should be marked as unorthodox, that has already been said by some people.
Also, please put the "hidden unit for hive ZvZ" under the "goofy category" as well. Guardians in hive ZvZ? I mean talk about unorthodox. After the thread fills with people believing this is a troll guide he narrows it down to this basically: his whole guide is only regarding the specific timing when both players are teching for defiler hydra to use 2-3 guardians over a mineral line WTF. Hydra ZvZ guide is more useful than this IMO.
That's actually a really cool thread, thanks. It's the type of thing that's obvious for some, but not for others—and frequently even people who do know it don't implement it unless they've read it in such an organized way.
It seems that most people agree on keeping unorthodox guides in here as well but under a separate tag, such as "Unorthodox" or such. Can they be included now?
edit: This one is an interesting strategy thread classic in my book with great discussion and game examples from progamer use etc.
[url=http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=105439]Walling on Match Point[/url] [small][i]Necosarius Sweden. November 11 2009 05:36[/i][/small]
[url=http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=401135]Overlord Scouting Techniques[/url] [small][i] traceurling United States. March 03 2013 15:13[/i][/small]
When I played Terran for one season on ICCUP TvP was always problematic for me. However I found 2 builds that helped me tremendously. One for winning games and the other for winning morale!
[url=http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=170706]Hiya 4-fact Timing[/url] [small][i]NeVeR November 21 2010 18:36[/i][/small]
The build I used to keep up my morale:
(put this under goofy section) It contains lots of nice pictures and replays as well as a phenomenal written style. I've gotten some questions about bio TvP from friends, and here is where I learned it all. Also please look at the comments of this guide before saying it is not worthy of being in this thread. This is a style for those who simply want to play on ICCUP for fun and not to try and get to yellow ranks as fast as possible.
[url=http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=97127]D+ Adventures in Bio-tank[/url] [small][i]Manifesto7 Osaka. July 07 2009 16:38[/i][/small]
The whole concept of being the one to make a thread like this is to make sure one can and will update it. This thread has not been updated in weeks now or so. Bad!
Well, in Chef's defense he didn't log into TL in 11 days so it's not like he's not updating it willfully. Shoot him a PM and I'm sure he'll update it when he sees it. Otherwise I'll do it.
In last weeks STL GameZZZ opened 10 hatch in ZvT vs spx; following some discussion about the build. Here is a thread with great informations about how it is different from the other hatch first timings.
[url=http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=106593]9 hatch vs 10 hatch vs 12 hatch[/url] [small][i]ultramagnetics Poland. November 28 2009 05:52[/i][/small]
EPT
Here's a gem:
