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[G] Tank Positioning

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
Post a Reply
1 2 Next All
Vekzel
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Poland142 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-09 07:12:19
October 08 2009 12:30 GMT
#1
[image loading]


Table of Contents:

+ Show Spoiler +
I. INTRODUCTION

II. POSITIONAL BASICS

II. DO NOT WANT:
A) Nada vs JangBi
B) Fantasy vs Stork

III. DO WANT:
A) Fantasy vs JangBi
B) Fantasy vs Kal

IV. MAP OF TANK SPOTS

V. END NOTES & CREDITS


I. INTRODUCTION

Ah, Siege Tanks. Probably the second reason for all Terran players to choose this race.

+ Show Spoiler +
First reason is (T)BoxeR, of course



The hated weapon of terror with bigh mothafucka gun mounted on heavy-armored body: can be anything better than that? Surely, a dozen of Tanks can easily melt down any number of enemies, when used properly. This guide is for all Tank users, and, probably, all Tank haters as well. I'll be discussing TvP examples, partially because Tanks are so important in this matchup.

Before you start reading, have this in mind:

+ Show Spoiler +
SIEGE TANK (SIEGE MODE):

Advantages:
> 70 Damage.
> Splash damage.
> Great range.
> Shooting over obstacles.

Disadvantages:
> Can't move.
> Hurts own units.
> Has minimal range.
> Deploying takes time.



II. POSITIONAL BASICS
You may want to skip this, if you are above D level.

+ Show Spoiler +
Since Tanks' terryfing power lies in Siege Mode, the positioning issue is critical. When deployed, Tanks cannot move, so placing them on awkward spots often results with huge loss of time (at best) or total disaster (at worst). Let's take a look and analyze some samples:

[image loading]


Note: In all these pictures I assume Toss will attack from the North.

I call this formation "The Blob". Tanks look scary when set up like that, yet it is an illusion. Any competent Protoss player will destroy such armor cluster without too much trouble. Psi Storm, Zealot bombs or simple run of Speedlot gang and Terran shall be screwed. On some ocassions "The Blob" may work, but most often it will lead to disaster.



[image loading]


In contrary to previous example, this is kind of almost-perfect formation. Tank line has "depth", meaning it will reveal it's full power gradually, as enemy approaches. Not only the opponent will have longer distance to run under fire - he will often miscalculate his chances of successful breakthrough. (Note that due to his limited vision, he may assume there are not that many Tanks on his way).

Tanks at the bottom of this formation are not split like those above, to increase efectiveness of massive fire. It's unlikely for Toss to break throught the whole line, so they don't need to be spread out that good as initial ones.



[image loading]


A typical example of self-ownage. Tanks are occupying terrible position on a minefield, meaning it will take only a Shuttle with 4 Zealots on it to kill them all. If you ever wondered why progamers are sometimes killing his own mines, let this be a good explanation.



[image loading]


Very standard setup, albeit not perfect. Simply speaking, Mines are clustered and placed very close to the Tank line. They will probably destroy each other and on a ocassion, hit own units as well (remember, those Spider crawlers are incredibly stupid). If Mine God will smile, this should be probably enough to survive an attack, but who needs to risk that much?



[image loading]

Here is the solution: Mines are spread out and placed further from Tanks, giving Vulture support just enough time to deal with the Zealots. Furthermore, Tanks are split better as well. Thanks to SCV support, the area is covered by Turrets, which makes Zealot bombing more difficult and nullifies half of the Protoss Arbiters' advantage. Some Depots and EBay provide additional cover in case of run-by.



[image loading]


Good, but rarely seen setup. Tank is covered by swarm of moving SCV's and CC. Furthermore, workers can repair it when needed.



Tanks like Destination. Below, two samples of placement for profit:

[image loading]

Early-game setup. Tanks are moved a bit further from cliff's edge to avoid Goons' return fire.

[image loading]

Mid-game setup. This time tanks on high ground are placed on the edge to maximize their range.



III. DO NOT WANT

Below, two examples of Tank-commander rage. Watch and cry:

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


And here are the full games, in which this happened:

A) (P)JangBi <Othello> (T)NaDa
(2 Set, KHAN vs WeMade, Proleague, 20.04.2008)

+ Show Spoiler +




JangBi goes 1 Gate Goon, Nada 1 Fac expo. JangBi scouts wrong and he is not able to get into Nada's base. Nada chooses to build Starport right away after his CC, and prepares Siege drop. Protoss gets Observers first and sneaks it into Terran base. JangBi spots drop early and nullifies it easily while double expanding. Nada expands again as well and builds more Turrets to intercept the Shuttle. JangBi builds another Nexus at 9 o'clock. He then sends Shuttle with Reaver to harass, but with no success. On another drop attempt he fails even more, losing two Shuttles, Reaver and a Dragoon to clever Turret placement. Nada then tries some Vulture harassement, yet JangBi's forces are in place and Toss has already secured himself 4th expo. Nada Drops 2 Tanks over new enemy outpost, still of no avail. He is willing to sacrifice a lot of Vultures in exchange for Probes from Toss' third expo. However, as the game is progressing, Terran forces are more and more contained in his 11 o'clock corner, while servants of Aiur are taking almost all available resource nodes. Finally Nada manages to wreck mining at one enemy base, but at cost of more Vultures. Shortly after this, he moves out with massive Tank army. The "Terran killer" mode unleashes out of the blue and Nada's army dies in few seconds to extraordinary effort of Khan's Executor. After few more minutes JangBi's expo count is revealed to his opponent and he has nothing more to do that typing gg.

This macro-fest was severly interrupted by MBC Refree, who lagged in the midgame and was eventually dropped from game. (Both players seemed relieved after this.)


In this particular game, both players simply omitted mid-game, and went towards long struggle by multi-expanding. However, the key factor were Nada's Vultures. They used to be his trademark, but here they did too little damage, and were repeatedly sacrificed in sake of Probehunting. Actually, PvT like this might be forgotten 5 minutes after it ended, if JangBi had less skill at storming. Still, Nada blew it by not having enough Vults at critical point and fighting on unfavourable area. He also skipped some necessary Goliaths, so Shuttles and Arbiters had easy time winning this game.

Conclusions:
> Avoid Tank clusters.
> Do not surrender map control.
> Never make Tank-only army. Never.


B) (P)Stork <Chupung-Ryeong> (T)fantasy
(5 Set, InCruit OSL Finals, 1.10.2008)

+ Show Spoiler +




Stork scouts with 7th Probe and steals Fantasy's gas, following this with 1Gate Goon range. Fantasy answers this with fast 1Rax into expo and Bunker in his natural. Some well-positioned Goons are intercepting Fantasy's SCV scouts, but Probe scout is denied as well. Then Stork manages to snipe Fantasy's 1st Tank, forcing Terran to spent a lot of minerals on repairing a Bunker. Stork retreats after Siege Mode is up and sits on his ridge while double expanding. Using Pylon blocks, he shuts Vulture holes at both natural and 3rd base. Fantasy gets more Factories, but fails to do any damage with Vults. The Observers are are following Terran army as it's repositioned to low ground above Fantasy's 1st ridge. Stork however, has much larger force, and attacks shortly after Fantasy moves out. Overrun by superior numbers, Terran loses most of his units and the control over "his" hill. With some sneaky tactics, Fantasy opts for ninja expo at 9 o'clock and finally scores some Probe kills with Vultures. However, his 2nd attempt to move out is swiftly countered by Dragoons attacking from high ground and, more importantly, some miraclous Storms. Stork smashes Terran natural and marches up his ramp. GG, Dino Toss clinches his 1st title.

Stork's facial expression after this game was probably 2nd greatest heart-melting feature in SC progaming, beaten only by Calm's tears after recent MSL Semifinal.


Hard pressed from the beginning, Fantasy deployed his 1st Tank outpost on low ground, despite some nice cliff behind his back. It looked like he was safe there, but without mines on the way, and support from behind, his position was doomed. Notice that Stork's Observer followed Terran army all the way it moved out, and revealed that there was no "depth" at enemy position. Knowing this, forces of Aiur were able to win first battle without single Storm being casted.

The second battle was determined by map structure. After taking the high ground, Stork had a choice when to attack and simply ran over Fantasy when he tried to move out (he was forced to do this since Toss had full map control). Simply speaking, Terran was behind in troop count, ground control and vision (attacking uphill).

Conclusions:
> Abuse cliffs as hard as possible.
> Scan your forces and snipe incoming Observers.
> When moving out, plant mines on new position before sieging.

This was as sad as this:

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


But time for something more appealing...


IV. DO WANT

Tremble with fear, Protoss, Tanks below are made of win:

(T)fantasy <Chupung-Ryeong> (P)JangBi
(1 Set, SKT1 vs KHAN, Proleague, 20.12.2008)

+ Show Spoiler +




JangBi gets 1Gate Goon range and blocks ramp with two Probes. He then plants ninja Citadel to get fast DT's. Fantasy plays standard 1Fac expo. Protoss forces are chasing 1st SCV scout so hard that they somehow let another Terran worker to sneak in and reveal his build. Fantasy survives Templar trouble with almost no damage. JangBi gets his natural running and adds 2 more Gateways. With very fast Arbiter tech instead of another expo, servants of Aiur are planning some timing agression, but this is repeatadly intimidated by marauding Vultures. Fantasy moves out to 1st ridge unspotted and drops 4 Vultures on JangBi's main. 2nd drop gets pretty well intercepted by Goons, but so does recall attempt, which costs JangBi an Arbiter. Terran secures 3rd expo and smashes first Toss attack on it. Another Protoss attack goes through east lane, but it's repulsed again by massive Tank and Vessel force. After securing his control over bottom ridge, Fantasy takes the opportunity and assaults new 3 o'clock expo. With same number of bases, JangBi settles for a recall in Terran main. This area is filled with mines and Fantasy's reinforcements, turning the attack into a suicide. Another recall hits 5 o'clock, this time to greater effect, but Terran control over high ground remains overwhelming. Fantasy pushes through west lane and even titanic efforts are not enough for Toss to stop this. Left with pitful few units and no additional expos, JangBi surrenders to the massive Tank army.

Fantasy's defensive potential and reactions were both so awesome, he even managed to EMP Arbiters, which were Hallucinated just to annoy him.


Fantasy did his homework after OSL finals and used Tanks properly. Notice that this time he expands more and takes full control of Chupung's hills instead of going through centre. Also, his reaction time is absolutely amazing, as well as army compositions and tactical insight. JangBi's unfortunate Arbiters and lack of early pressure backfired in late game, when Terran had easy time shutting middle expos at 3 and 9 o'clock.

Conclusions:
> Late game Tanks >> Late game Goons+Zealots.
> Remember to set up minefields in your main base.
> Use Goliath support.


(T)fantasy <Destination> (P)Kal
(1 Set, SKT1 vs STX, Proleague, 15.06.2009

+ Show Spoiler +




Game opens with Fantasy scouting for proxy Gates, while Kal employs 14Nexus. After standard 1Fac expand, Terran opts for timing attack with 3 Tanks, 3 Vultures and 3 Marines. By abusing backdoor lane, Fantasy cuts off mining supply at Protoss natural and brutalizes it even more with frontal Vulture raid. Some gigantic effort allows Kal to save himself, but his counter (Shuttle) is intercepted by another counter (Wraith). Kal rushes to Arbiters and horribly fails with another drop attempt (or rather is brilliantly caught by Fantasy's Gosu Starsense). One more agressive move by Toss is repulsed, and Terran has his 3rd Gas secured. SKT1 Terrorist livens up to his nickname by 2Vult 1Tank Drop at Kal's main followed by another Vulture invasion. Warriors of Adun are rammed once again when Fantasy catches their 1st Arbiter with 4 Goliaths sent to 2 o'clock expo. Kal jumps through central bridges, but he is unable to breakthrough and he gets trapped at Terran backdoor. 1st Recall is interrupted by EMP, while second one fails within a... second to impenetrable human defense. Shortly after this, Kal loses 8 o'clock expo and brand new Nexus at 5 o'clock. Last full-control group of Goons melts under Mech fire and this is the end of Protoss' suffering.

A must-watch. Fantasy's defence again was flawless. Even when Kal managed to get a recall he was so utterly destroyed, that it raises questions about some kind of in-game bug.


In this game, Fantasy fully abuses Destination's tank-friendly layout. From nice backdoor timing attack to impeccable defense of his own natural, Jung Myung Hoon shows that not only Vultures are his trademark. Watch it carefully, as this game is full of great interception moves and defensive manuevers. In fact, Kal was on his back foot the whole time and never managed to launch a successful attack.


Conclusions:
> Destination is Tank-friendly map.
> Use floating buildings to extend Tank range.
> When given a chance, try to corner Toss forces at your backdoor.


IV. MAP OF TANK SPOTS

Yellow dots are marking good Tank positions and/or typical areas where Tanks are being sieged during the game. Note that some maps have considerably less Tank spots than other - this however, does not mean that they are less Tank-friendly (well, at least not always).

+ Show Spoiler +
Blue Storm:
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Destination:
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Heartbreak Ridge:

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Outsider:
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Andromeda:
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Byzantium:
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Colosseum:
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Katrina:
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]



V. END NOTES & CREDITS

+ Show Spoiler +
I focused on TvP matchup, but I want to make two more threads with TvT and TvZ.
(Should I do it? Fill the poll, please.)

Some of those thoughts may be a bit irrelevant. I'm not an expert player.
If I messed up someting, just write it here or PM me.

Special Thanks To:
SgtHK0223 (YouTube user; for banner inspiration),
Jon747 (aka Baezzi, for videos),
4chan (for rage thread inspiration),
You (for reading this).

No Pandabearguys were harmed during the making of this guide.


[image loading]

Poll: Should I make more Tank guides?
(Vote): Absolutely, this one was great!
(Vote): Yes, we'll see if you will improve.
(Vote): No, learn more about SC first.
(Vote): Never, this was horrible :-(
#1 Stork Fan II RET FIGHTING!!! II Nal_rA, Calm, UpMaGiC: GL 2U! II sAviOr: recover PLZ!
T.O.P. *
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Hong Kong4685 Posts
October 08 2009 12:37 GMT
#2
Nice, you should talk about how to micro those tanks into that position. I know the theory, I just can't do it in practice.
Oracle comes in, Scvs go down, never a miscommunication.
29 fps
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States5725 Posts
October 08 2009 13:11 GMT
#3
nice guide. good examples of good and bad setups. suggestion: you should have diff colors for offensive/defensive tank positions in those pics. the spots at the narrow choke on blue storm look like offensive spots. also, positions for tank drops would be useful knowledge
4v4 is a battle of who has the better computer.
50bani
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Romania480 Posts
October 08 2009 13:51 GMT
#4
Don't like.

I thought you were posting micro tips and all. We know what we want and what we don't but how do we get it right consistently is where we all lack.
I'm posting on twoplustwo because I have always been amazed at the level of talent that populates this site --- it's almost unparalleled on the Internet.
StorrZerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States13922 Posts
October 08 2009 14:01 GMT
#5
not bad, nice 1st/2nd post
Hwaseung Oz fan for life. Swing out, always swing out.
cascades
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Singapore6122 Posts
October 08 2009 14:11 GMT
#6
I thought it was really awesome. You obviously put a lot of work into this, features like nice tank spots was cool. Only thing lacking is how to micro into those positions, but that omission is no reason to hate on the guide. 4.5/5
HS: cascades#1595 || LoL: stoppin
AzureEye
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States1360 Posts
October 08 2009 14:12 GMT
#7
On October 08 2009 22:51 50bani wrote:
Don't like.

I thought you were posting micro tips and all. We know what we want and what we don't but how do we get it right consistently is where we all lack.


Yeah same here, I thought you were actually going to layout what kind of tank positioning will be most effective with angles and stuff
Terrans who whine: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=107788
The Raurosaur
Profile Joined April 2009
198 Posts
October 08 2009 14:27 GMT
#8
Good post, great analysis and examples. You seem to forget that sometimes you don't have a shit-ton of tanks, though - sometimes you only have 4 or 5, and in these cases you may want to spread the tanks a storm-distance apart from each other (like you do with lurkers in ZvP). Also, while you talked about using mines and buildings as buffers between your enemy and tanks, I saw no mention of vultures?!

I'd love to see a positioning guide for TvT though.
:(){:|:&};:
Necosarius
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Sweden4042 Posts
October 08 2009 14:42 GMT
#9
Good work, thanks!
Pokebunny
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States10654 Posts
October 08 2009 14:50 GMT
#10
I think TvT is actually a bit more difficult and demanding for tank positioning, but decent guide nonetheless.
Semipro Terran player | Pokebunny#1710 | twitter.com/Pokebunny | twitch.tv/Pokebunny | facebook.com/PokebunnySC
pat965
Profile Joined April 2009
Canada274 Posts
October 08 2009 15:14 GMT
#11
Regardless of how the article is received, this is a very good effort and if you continue to put the same energy and enthusiasm towards more projects like this, then we will be happy. This guide serves as a good introduction.
hi
KawaiiRice
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States2914 Posts
October 08 2009 15:29 GMT
#12
I often clump my tanks. It's a bad habit but safer against zealot bombing (clustered tanks don't splash each other). Later on I just get owned by storm though.
@KawaiiRiceLighT
mOnion
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States5660 Posts
October 08 2009 16:06 GMT
#13
um

how hard is tank positioning tvp? even the most basic nub knows that a clusterfuck of tanks is bad. i've never seen a player who didnt know that a basic tank spread and cliffs were good.

this seems like a pvz guide on "storm is good"
☆★☆ 7486!!! Join the Ban mOnion Anti-Trolling Initiative! - Caller | "on a scale of machine to 10, how bad is that Zerg?" - LZgamer | you are the new tl.net bonjwa monion, congrats - Rekrul | "Cheeseburgers dynamite lilacs" - Chill
pangshai
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Chinatown5333 Posts
October 08 2009 16:36 GMT
#14
looking forward to a follow up on how to micro tanks into position, as everyone seems to have requested. this one is great! (although mostly everyone knows this already, but its still nice to have a thread with pictures and vods and all).
#1 midas fan
Eiii
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States2566 Posts
October 08 2009 17:39 GMT
#15
Nice guide! It's funny that you used a bunch of periods to properly 'position' the image at the top of the page, though...
:3
oxidized
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States324 Posts
October 08 2009 19:26 GMT
#16
Was hoping for a more TvT oriented guide but this is also good. I am digging the maps of tanking spots.
Grobyc
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Canada18410 Posts
October 08 2009 20:58 GMT
#17
On October 08 2009 23:50 Pokebunny wrote:
I think TvT is actually a bit more difficult and demanding for tank positioning, but decent guide nonetheless.

this
If you watch Godzilla backwards it's about a benevolent lizard who helps rebuild a city and then moonwalks into the ocean.
aG.Admirai
Profile Joined October 2009
Canada55 Posts
October 08 2009 21:12 GMT
#18
Good guide. I loved the "self-ownage position" one lol
DZhou
Profile Joined November 2008
China14 Posts
October 08 2009 22:52 GMT
#19
The pics won't load for me
All I see is polish text
zekie
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Canada380 Posts
October 08 2009 22:55 GMT
#20
most of the pics won't work for me either.
1 2 Next All
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PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
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