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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
First off all - it's a shame this forum is so empty!
But instead of crying about that, I decided to add something instead. ^^
I also do apologize for not making this thread as nicely looking as it probably could be and just go with a pure "write-up-style".
Introduction:
This buildorder is VERY fragile - but if you do it right probably one of the strongest (and most unknown) BO's to have in your arsenal.
It is NOT a "do it every game" strategy, it requires good goon micro and especially very, very good eco management because it kinda abuses "eco optimizing" like a lot of Terran buildorders do. Also it works better the larger the map is.
The Buildorder:
8 Pylon
- make Probes preemptively until you have worker 10+11+12 in production.
11 Gate (your 10th probe should spawn right when you have about 150 minerals.)
- make more preemptive probes until you have worker 13+14 also in production (Yes, that means you have 3 or more workers in queue right now.) -
12 Gas
- make 2 more probes. you should now have probe 13,14,15,16 in queue.
14 Core (or whenever you have minerals and your gate finishes)
- by now your gas should finish. you put in only ONE worker.
- stop probe production. CUT IT.
16 Pylon
- put probe number 2 in your gas.
- send one probe to your natural.
16 Nexus [as soon as you have 400 minerals, this is the most critical timing of the whole buildorder because this Nexus "replaces" pylon 3 in your buildorder]
16 Dragoon
- put worker number 3 in gas.
16 Probe (after everything else you made at 16 ^^)
17 2nd Gate
17 Range
18 2nd goon
- resume probe production, do not MISS A SINGLE ONE, you did cut a little bit of eco make this happen so it is VERY important that you now do not miss a single fucking one. Not even while you're microing. 9p0p9p0p. All the time! Doesn't matter if you don't have time to send them to work during a fight, important is that you build them.
Keep on making Dragoons from 2 Gateways.
You should have 4 goon and range at 90% when a FD push arrives.
STAY PASSIVE WITH THOSE GOONS !!!
Do NOT donate them under any fucking circumstance!
Do NOT go further away then whatever is the best choke point near your natural!
This means you got to buy a little bit of time. (if you're not confident enough in your goon micro just take off your eco at the natural and use it to fight.)
Make dragoon 5+6 if FD push happens, make Robo asap if not.
ANYTHING but FD push needs this Robo faster than goon 5+6.
Place pylon 4/5 outside on common drop routes, your observer is slightly late.
Exception: you sense 2fac push - then pump goon like crazy, (get robo as soon as you have enough money while still making goon) you can STILL hold it with this if you micro proper.
From here on the rest is pretty much easy and "up to what happens".
Can't give you guys an exact buildorder anymore because this part is mostly up to what your opponent is doing and what you have scouted by now.
You'll have to decide which road you want to go, but as long as you did not die (or forget to make probes) you're ahead anyway.
Thus you can go for a fast 3rd and have really good chances of holding that against any pushes (given the fact you make a shuttle and know how to use it), tech to arbiters fast and recall him to hell or simply try to kill him with a timing.
"Pro"-Tip: If his FD completely failed and you still went for the *greedy* Robo after goon 3+4 you'll have around 8-10 goon when your first ob arrives at his place - if he's unprepared (no / to few turrets is pretty common vs such a greedy FE) you can easily make a shuttle, add 4 Zealots and overrun him at this point.
So yea, that's pretty much all I can share about this.
All there's left for me to do now is provide you with a replay on how exactly this works because the write up might be a little bit too confusing without it. 
It's a tricky build after all.
Against FD push: Sample#1
Against Siege FE: Sample#2
Background "Story"
+ Show Spoiler + It's kind of funny what being wasted can do to you.
One day about 3-4 years ago I was grinding and grinding, just one of those nights where I did not fucking want to stop.
I was too tired and I starting to get sloppy tho, played a normal 8 pyl 10 gate 12 gas 14 core and 16 pylon opener - but forgot to put workers in gas.
There I was sitting at 16 supply, left with a gate, a core, a gas, a second pylon as well as 400 Minerals but no Gas.
Now guess what I did use them on.
I ended up raping the Terran's FD push nevertheless and took the game with ease.
Needless to say I did what I had to do and refined it after I basically got the idea served on a silver table.
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Nice build. Will try it out on iccup.
And yes it is very sad that the Brood War section is lacking activity. Thanks very much for the effort.
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horang2 did a build similar to this vs Hwasin on Neo medusa, but I feel that the SKT Builds are more optimized to holding pushes. If any koreans see you do a no goon range expand, they will most likely continue to make marines and bring a few scvs, without obs you cant re-gain your natural once they have placed mines.
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On January 03 2013 16:25 dRaW wrote:
horang2 did a build similar to this vs Hwasin on Neo medusa, but I feel that the SKT Builds are more optimized to holding pushes. If any koreans see you do a no goon range expand, they will most likely continue to make marines and bring a few scvs, without obs you cant re-gain your natural once they have placed mines.
Ironically enough this build is literally a Korean killer. Most of them do try to FD push with a lot of marines and that just does not work. All progamer Terran's I've faced with this build also said it's great. ^^
If he does pull a lot of scv you just continue to make probes and sac the nexus, as you would do with 14 Nex.
You're still ahead after.
Also your robo won't really be that late if you don't have to make a lot of probes.
You can still hold if you use the natural eco tho, if that fails and you lose the eco + the nexus you're obviously dead.
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Isn't it the build you used to beat gosi[terran] during TSL2 ? I remember a weird gateway core nexus build opening.
Also, could you elaborate on why you make it sound like it is difficult to defend against 2 fact ? Wouldn't you be in a situation very close to a 12 nex, ie : comfortable to defend vs 2 fact ?
Thanks !
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Thank you for sharing this opening ! As a terran user, what is the best response to this when the terran is opening FD ? (Implying the protoss have a good micro goon  ). Still try to be agressive to force the Protoss to delay his tech, or taking a fast third base to make up for the protoss economical advantage ?
(I don't ask for the perfect counter but what kind of response "annoyed" you ? :p)
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Is this same build used against Flash in wcg 2010? Looks very similar
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
Yea the build was used in public games a lot by me - definitely vs Flash.
The game however was lost due to losing 5 goons to a mine when I had an observer ready *shrug*.
Not sure I also used it vs Juan, I deleted those games from my memory because getting raped by somebody who's number you always had is obviously not a nice feeling. ^^
@endy:
"Exception: you sense 2fac push - then pump goon like crazy, (get robo as soon as you have enough money while still making goon) you can STILL hold it with this if you micro proper."
Edit:
@glio
This buildorder depends a LOT on execution, it's very fragile.
Means as much as - do whatever you usually do best against it.
You have great FD push micro? Go for it and kill a few probes.
You have really nice macro? Take the fast 3rd.
You're awesome with dropships? Drop!
I love this buildorder because (in my opinion) it will always make the "better player" come out on top.
Means you can horribly lose if your opponent simply outmicroes you with this as well.
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Thank you for writing this
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United States43163 Posts
Glad to see a Protoss I respect as much as you still honouring brood war with your presence.
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please start playing p v z again
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Can't not post in here. Was wondering if that build or any of the variants I was aware of ever makes it into a guide. <3
Now if only people start playing Tau Cross again...
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I had a couple of successful experimental games with this build on iccup, it seems pretty promising, definitely adding it to my repertoire and going to try it out more. Thanks!
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On January 05 2013 11:41 r.Evo wrote:
Can't not post in here. Was wondering if that build or any of the variants I was aware of ever makes it into a guide. <3
Now if only people start playing Tau Cross again...
o//
That build works perfect on almost ANY new map because they're all large as fuck!
On January 04 2013 10:45 KwarK wrote:
Glad to see a Protoss I respect as much as you still honouring brood war with your presence.
Awww stop flattering me man!
I won't quit this game as long as there's Nerds to play it with anyway! )
On January 04 2013 13:38 GoTuNk! wrote:
please start playing p v z again
Never really stopped!
Just been playing too much BGH lately, hehe. Can't help it!
Glad to see some people are still interesting in learning things in this beautiful game!
Quite a decent number of views! :D
BW FIGHTING~~
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Every time I beat you when you do this b/o you call me a cheeser 
Edit: So this post can be productive... my critique of this build as a Terran who has played against it at least 100 times:
Due to the quick expansion, you're playing catch up. You're safe, but you don't have vision anywhere. You can't risk sending out units to kill a random scv killing any pylon you make, and sending probes out to watch for movement is futile at a high level. Following your lack of vision, and trying to make up for it, you have to take a 3rd rather quick off of your quick economy to stay relevant in the game. With that, on FS (which I'm sure most of you will try it on), you're extremely vulnerable to a quick 3fact or 5fact push, paired with the game ending chance of a successful drop in the main or quick speed vulture run by into your third. For the little you gain, you can't use this build more than once versus any Terran with an average level of intelligence. However, this is definitely a great build for bo3 matches and ladder games. Also, this build is great on large maps like Icarus, Sniper Ridge, etc, where goons can be used in a more effective manner.
Edit 2: The best way to play this build is to make a shuttle the second your third starts (how Pat initially would beat me since I wouldn't make an armory and he'd meet me mid-map when he started using this build).
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
Yea I emphasized the fact that a shuttle is really really useful.
From the days on which we've played I got to add that I learned to use proxy pylons as scout for drops thus "negating" another weakness nowadays you exploited the one or other time back then.
I also pointed out that is not a "do it every game build", as you said, it's perfect for Bo3's or Ladder games (especially vs Koreans who get confused by anything out of the norm) but still I always go at very least 50-50 with it even if the opponent knows it, as it always depends on execution of it as I said ^^
Other than that, you have a few good points.
It is vulnerable for a short period of time (depending whether you go for fast or late obs too) in terms of "map visibility" of course, but a scouting probe should be around to see any pushes moving out.
Again, nothing is perfect - but for me this is pretty much my "to go for if it matters" build in PvT.
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Nice guide Pat, now give me all your replays! haha
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what if they see the expansion and bunker rush??
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EPT
