|
iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
First off all - it's a shame this forum is so empty!
But instead of crying about that, I decided to add something instead. ^^
I also do apologize for not making this thread as nicely looking as it probably could be and just go with a pure "write-up-style".
Introduction:
This buildorder is VERY fragile - but if you do it right probably one of the strongest (and most unknown) BO's to have in your arsenal.
It is NOT a "do it every game" strategy, it requires good goon micro and especially very, very good eco management because it kinda abuses "eco optimizing" like a lot of Terran buildorders do. Also it works better the larger the map is.
The Buildorder:
8 Pylon
- make Probes preemptively until you have worker 10+11+12 in production.
11 Gate (your 10th probe should spawn right when you have about 150 minerals.)
- make more preemptive probes until you have worker 13+14 also in production (Yes, that means you have 3 or more workers in queue right now.) -
12 Gas
- make 2 more probes. you should now have probe 13,14,15,16 in queue.
14 Core (or whenever you have minerals and your gate finishes)
- by now your gas should finish. you put in only ONE worker.
- stop probe production. CUT IT.
16 Pylon
- put probe number 2 in your gas.
- send one probe to your natural.
16 Nexus [as soon as you have 400 minerals, this is the most critical timing of the whole buildorder because this Nexus "replaces" pylon 3 in your buildorder]
16 Dragoon
- put worker number 3 in gas.
16 Probe (after everything else you made at 16 ^^)
17 2nd Gate
17 Range
18 2nd goon
- resume probe production, do not MISS A SINGLE ONE, you did cut a little bit of eco make this happen so it is VERY important that you now do not miss a single fucking one. Not even while you're microing. 9p0p9p0p. All the time! Doesn't matter if you don't have time to send them to work during a fight, important is that you build them.
Keep on making Dragoons from 2 Gateways.
You should have 4 goon and range at 90% when a FD push arrives.
STAY PASSIVE WITH THOSE GOONS !!!
Do NOT donate them under any fucking circumstance!
Do NOT go further away then whatever is the best choke point near your natural!
This means you got to buy a little bit of time. (if you're not confident enough in your goon micro just take off your eco at the natural and use it to fight.)
Make dragoon 5+6 if FD push happens, make Robo asap if not.
ANYTHING but FD push needs this Robo faster than goon 5+6.
Place pylon 4/5 outside on common drop routes, your observer is slightly late.
Exception: you sense 2fac push - then pump goon like crazy, (get robo as soon as you have enough money while still making goon) you can STILL hold it with this if you micro proper.
From here on the rest is pretty much easy and "up to what happens".
Can't give you guys an exact buildorder anymore because this part is mostly up to what your opponent is doing and what you have scouted by now.
You'll have to decide which road you want to go, but as long as you did not die (or forget to make probes) you're ahead anyway.
Thus you can go for a fast 3rd and have really good chances of holding that against any pushes (given the fact you make a shuttle and know how to use it), tech to arbiters fast and recall him to hell or simply try to kill him with a timing.
"Pro"-Tip: If his FD completely failed and you still went for the *greedy* Robo after goon 3+4 you'll have around 8-10 goon when your first ob arrives at his place - if he's unprepared (no / to few turrets is pretty common vs such a greedy FE) you can easily make a shuttle, add 4 Zealots and overrun him at this point.
So yea, that's pretty much all I can share about this.
All there's left for me to do now is provide you with a replay on how exactly this works because the write up might be a little bit too confusing without it. 
It's a tricky build after all.
Against FD push: Sample#1
Against Siege FE: Sample#2
Background "Story"
+ Show Spoiler + It's kind of funny what being wasted can do to you.
One day about 3-4 years ago I was grinding and grinding, just one of those nights where I did not fucking want to stop.
I was too tired and I starting to get sloppy tho, played a normal 8 pyl 10 gate 12 gas 14 core and 16 pylon opener - but forgot to put workers in gas.
There I was sitting at 16 supply, left with a gate, a core, a gas, a second pylon as well as 400 Minerals but no Gas.
Now guess what I did use them on.
I ended up raping the Terran's FD push nevertheless and took the game with ease.
Needless to say I did what I had to do and refined it after I basically got the idea served on a silver table.
|
|
|
Nice build. Will try it out on iccup.
And yes it is very sad that the Brood War section is lacking activity. Thanks very much for the effort.
|
horang2 did a build similar to this vs Hwasin on Neo medusa, but I feel that the SKT Builds are more optimized to holding pushes. If any koreans see you do a no goon range expand, they will most likely continue to make marines and bring a few scvs, without obs you cant re-gain your natural once they have placed mines.
|
iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On January 03 2013 16:25 dRaW wrote:
horang2 did a build similar to this vs Hwasin on Neo medusa, but I feel that the SKT Builds are more optimized to holding pushes. If any koreans see you do a no goon range expand, they will most likely continue to make marines and bring a few scvs, without obs you cant re-gain your natural once they have placed mines.
Ironically enough this build is literally a Korean killer. Most of them do try to FD push with a lot of marines and that just does not work. All progamer Terran's I've faced with this build also said it's great. ^^
If he does pull a lot of scv you just continue to make probes and sac the nexus, as you would do with 14 Nex.
You're still ahead after.
Also your robo won't really be that late if you don't have to make a lot of probes.
You can still hold if you use the natural eco tho, if that fails and you lose the eco + the nexus you're obviously dead.
|
Isn't it the build you used to beat gosi[terran] during TSL2 ? I remember a weird gateway core nexus build opening.
Also, could you elaborate on why you make it sound like it is difficult to defend against 2 fact ? Wouldn't you be in a situation very close to a 12 nex, ie : comfortable to defend vs 2 fact ?
Thanks !
|
Thank you for sharing this opening ! As a terran user, what is the best response to this when the terran is opening FD ? (Implying the protoss have a good micro goon  ). Still try to be agressive to force the Protoss to delay his tech, or taking a fast third base to make up for the protoss economical advantage ?
(I don't ask for the perfect counter but what kind of response "annoyed" you ? :p)
|
Is this same build used against Flash in wcg 2010? Looks very similar
|
iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
Yea the build was used in public games a lot by me - definitely vs Flash.
The game however was lost due to losing 5 goons to a mine when I had an observer ready *shrug*.
Not sure I also used it vs Juan, I deleted those games from my memory because getting raped by somebody who's number you always had is obviously not a nice feeling. ^^
@endy:
"Exception: you sense 2fac push - then pump goon like crazy, (get robo as soon as you have enough money while still making goon) you can STILL hold it with this if you micro proper."
Edit:
@glio
This buildorder depends a LOT on execution, it's very fragile.
Means as much as - do whatever you usually do best against it.
You have great FD push micro? Go for it and kill a few probes.
You have really nice macro? Take the fast 3rd.
You're awesome with dropships? Drop!
I love this buildorder because (in my opinion) it will always make the "better player" come out on top.
Means you can horribly lose if your opponent simply outmicroes you with this as well.
|
Thank you for writing this
|
United States42480 Posts
Glad to see a Protoss I respect as much as you still honouring brood war with your presence.
|
please start playing p v z again
|
|
|
Can't not post in here. Was wondering if that build or any of the variants I was aware of ever makes it into a guide. <3
Now if only people start playing Tau Cross again...
|
I had a couple of successful experimental games with this build on iccup, it seems pretty promising, definitely adding it to my repertoire and going to try it out more. Thanks!
|
iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On January 05 2013 11:41 r.Evo wrote:
Can't not post in here. Was wondering if that build or any of the variants I was aware of ever makes it into a guide. <3
Now if only people start playing Tau Cross again...
o//
That build works perfect on almost ANY new map because they're all large as fuck!
On January 04 2013 10:45 KwarK wrote:
Glad to see a Protoss I respect as much as you still honouring brood war with your presence.
Awww stop flattering me man!
I won't quit this game as long as there's Nerds to play it with anyway! )
On January 04 2013 13:38 GoTuNk! wrote:
please start playing p v z again
Never really stopped!
Just been playing too much BGH lately, hehe. Can't help it!
Glad to see some people are still interesting in learning things in this beautiful game!
Quite a decent number of views! :D
BW FIGHTING~~
|
Every time I beat you when you do this b/o you call me a cheeser 
Edit: So this post can be productive... my critique of this build as a Terran who has played against it at least 100 times:
Due to the quick expansion, you're playing catch up. You're safe, but you don't have vision anywhere. You can't risk sending out units to kill a random scv killing any pylon you make, and sending probes out to watch for movement is futile at a high level. Following your lack of vision, and trying to make up for it, you have to take a 3rd rather quick off of your quick economy to stay relevant in the game. With that, on FS (which I'm sure most of you will try it on), you're extremely vulnerable to a quick 3fact or 5fact push, paired with the game ending chance of a successful drop in the main or quick speed vulture run by into your third. For the little you gain, you can't use this build more than once versus any Terran with an average level of intelligence. However, this is definitely a great build for bo3 matches and ladder games. Also, this build is great on large maps like Icarus, Sniper Ridge, etc, where goons can be used in a more effective manner.
Edit 2: The best way to play this build is to make a shuttle the second your third starts (how Pat initially would beat me since I wouldn't make an armory and he'd meet me mid-map when he started using this build).
|
iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
Yea I emphasized the fact that a shuttle is really really useful.
From the days on which we've played I got to add that I learned to use proxy pylons as scout for drops thus "negating" another weakness nowadays you exploited the one or other time back then.
I also pointed out that is not a "do it every game build", as you said, it's perfect for Bo3's or Ladder games (especially vs Koreans who get confused by anything out of the norm) but still I always go at very least 50-50 with it even if the opponent knows it, as it always depends on execution of it as I said ^^
Other than that, you have a few good points.
It is vulnerable for a short period of time (depending whether you go for fast or late obs too) in terms of "map visibility" of course, but a scouting probe should be around to see any pushes moving out.
Again, nothing is perfect - but for me this is pretty much my "to go for if it matters" build in PvT.
|
Nice guide Pat, now give me all your replays! haha
|
what if they see the expansion and bunker rush??
|
Just wanted to point out the flaws for the TL community. Why? Not because I'm a dick, but because I've had lower level friends (10 or so - thus I assume everyone does this given the 100% success rate) who read something on TL's strategy forum and make it their go to build every game. For instance: LRM)nOoNe's 5 hatch hydra build (essentially ChOseN's), and he was only B rank.
|
I've not done this bo, but what about this build is better than the SKT bo?:
17 goon
19 range
21 goon
23 nexus
23 goon
25 pylon
25 robo
29 gateway
30 gateway
Nexus finishes and is used as pylon
Advantages I see in this BO:
-Faster goon range and 3 goons. This means I can send them out to micro vs FD and it causes me no issue. Or I can smack the bunker a little if they went rax cc.
-Faster robo.
Neutral
Nexus is still in time to be used as a pylon before a push comes (saving minerals).
I expect the economies to be around the same, though this is a guess.
Disadvantages
You probably get a few more goons in time for a 2 fact but I feel that the SKT BO is acceptable in this instance (and you can tell something is coming because your 3 goons won't have seen a cc or an FD unless the terran tries to hide the 2 fact... which I don't feel benefits him a lot because I'll be macroing out of 3 gates for a bit until my obs is out anways.
But thanks for the guide, etc! Always interesting to see different approaches.
|
Muff2n can you upload any rep with this build, the best would be with 2 facts or FD
|
On January 08 2013 07:31 bulbasaur) wrote:
Muff2n can you upload any rep with this build, the best would be with 2 facts or FD
SKT1 build, aka 21 nex/1 goon FE, gets out 4 goons for FD timing (on FS they arrive a few seconds before terran gets to you're bridge).
Replay: http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=52525
|
On January 08 2013 07:03 Muff2n wrote:
I've not done this bo, but what about this build is better than the SKT bo?:
17 goon
19 range
21 goon
23 nexus
23 goon
25 pylon
25 robo
29 gateway
30 gateway
Nexus finishes and is used as pylon
Advantages I see in this BO:
-Faster goon range and 3 goons. This means I can send them out to micro vs FD and it causes me no issue. Or I can smack the bunker a little if they went rax cc.
-Faster robo.
Neutral
Nexus is still in time to be used as a pylon before a push comes (saving minerals).
I expect the economies to be around the same, though this is a guess.
Disadvantages
You probably get a few more goons in time for a 2 fact but I feel that the SKT BO is acceptable in this instance (and you can tell something is coming because your 3 goons won't have seen a cc or an FD unless the terran tries to hide the 2 fact... which I don't feel benefits him a lot because I'll be macroing out of 3 gates for a bit until my obs is out anways.
But thanks for the guide, etc! Always interesting to see different approaches.
That's not the SKT1 BO though. It's actually 21 nexus 21 gate 21 goon 23 pylon 28 robo
|
On January 06 2013 10:32 iNfeRnaL wrote:
Glad to see some people are still interesting in learning things in this beautiful game!
Quite a decent number of views! :D
BW FIGHTING~~
of course! it's a shame that liquipedia is so out of date. I really appreciate anyone to write a guide or current BOs. Thank you very much, i will try this at iccup!
|
On January 08 2013 07:03 Muff2n wrote:
I've not done this bo, but what about this build is better than the SKT bo?:
17 goon
19 range
21 goon
23 nexus
23 goon
25 pylon
25 robo
29 gateway
30 gateway
Nexus finishes and is used as pylon
Advantages I see in this BO:
-Faster goon range and 3 goons. This means I can send them out to micro vs FD and it causes me no issue. Or I can smack the bunker a little if they went rax cc.
-Faster robo.
Neutral
Nexus is still in time to be used as a pylon before a push comes (saving minerals).
I expect the economies to be around the same, though this is a guess.
Disadvantages
You probably get a few more goons in time for a 2 fact but I feel that the SKT BO is acceptable in this instance (and you can tell something is coming because your 3 goons won't have seen a cc or an FD unless the terran tries to hide the 2 fact... which I don't feel benefits him a lot because I'll be macroing out of 3 gates for a bit until my obs is out anways.
But thanks for the guide, etc! Always interesting to see different approaches.
No goon before Nex in the SKT build.
|
On January 08 2013 22:39 endy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2013 07:03 Muff2n wrote:
I've not done this bo, but what about this build is better than the SKT bo?:
17 goon
19 range
21 goon
23 nexus
23 goon
25 pylon
25 robo
29 gateway
30 gateway
Nexus finishes and is used as pylon
Advantages I see in this BO:
-Faster goon range and 3 goons. This means I can send them out to micro vs FD and it causes me no issue. Or I can smack the bunker a little if they went rax cc.
-Faster robo.
Neutral
Nexus is still in time to be used as a pylon before a push comes (saving minerals).
I expect the economies to be around the same, though this is a guess.
Disadvantages
You probably get a few more goons in time for a 2 fact but I feel that the SKT BO is acceptable in this instance (and you can tell something is coming because your 3 goons won't have seen a cc or an FD unless the terran tries to hide the 2 fact... which I don't feel benefits him a lot because I'll be macroing out of 3 gates for a bit until my obs is out anways.
But thanks for the guide, etc! Always interesting to see different approaches. No goon before Nex in the SKT build.
Unless you're thinking of a completely different SKT1 build, there is absolutely a goon before nexus. That's part of what allows you to have 4 goons at FD timing.
There may well be multiple variants of SKT1 build though as I have seen Tento do a variation where he goes nexus before goon at like 18/19 and ends up with, iirc, 3 goons at the FD timing.
For reference: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=222055
|
Thanks for the post! Might give this a try.
|
United States11390 Posts
On January 09 2013 03:23 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2013 22:39 endy wrote:On January 08 2013 07:03 Muff2n wrote:
I've not done this bo, but what about this build is better than the SKT bo?:
17 goon
19 range
21 goon
23 nexus
23 goon
25 pylon
25 robo
29 gateway
30 gateway
Nexus finishes and is used as pylon
Advantages I see in this BO:
-Faster goon range and 3 goons. This means I can send them out to micro vs FD and it causes me no issue. Or I can smack the bunker a little if they went rax cc.
-Faster robo.
Neutral
Nexus is still in time to be used as a pylon before a push comes (saving minerals).
I expect the economies to be around the same, though this is a guess.
Disadvantages
You probably get a few more goons in time for a 2 fact but I feel that the SKT BO is acceptable in this instance (and you can tell something is coming because your 3 goons won't have seen a cc or an FD unless the terran tries to hide the 2 fact... which I don't feel benefits him a lot because I'll be macroing out of 3 gates for a bit until my obs is out anways.
But thanks for the guide, etc! Always interesting to see different approaches. No goon before Nex in the SKT build. Unless you're thinking of a completely different SKT1 build, there is absolutely a goon before nexus. That's part of what allows you to have 4 goons at FD timing. There may well be multiple variants of SKT1 build though as I have seen Tento do a variation where he goes nexus before goon at like 18/19 and ends up with, iirc, 3 goons at the FD timing. For reference: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=222055
http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=52533
Here's a replay of Tento crushing Shinee with his version for anyone curious.
|
On January 09 2013 03:23 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2013 22:39 endy wrote:On January 08 2013 07:03 Muff2n wrote:
I've not done this bo, but what about this build is better than the SKT bo?:
17 goon
19 range
21 goon
23 nexus
23 goon
25 pylon
25 robo
29 gateway
30 gateway
Nexus finishes and is used as pylon
Advantages I see in this BO:
-Faster goon range and 3 goons. This means I can send them out to micro vs FD and it causes me no issue. Or I can smack the bunker a little if they went rax cc.
-Faster robo.
Neutral
Nexus is still in time to be used as a pylon before a push comes (saving minerals).
I expect the economies to be around the same, though this is a guess.
Disadvantages
You probably get a few more goons in time for a 2 fact but I feel that the SKT BO is acceptable in this instance (and you can tell something is coming because your 3 goons won't have seen a cc or an FD unless the terran tries to hide the 2 fact... which I don't feel benefits him a lot because I'll be macroing out of 3 gates for a bit until my obs is out anways.
But thanks for the guide, etc! Always interesting to see different approaches. No goon before Nex in the SKT build. Unless you're thinking of a completely different SKT1 build, there is absolutely a goon before nexus. That's part of what allows you to have 4 goons at FD timing. There may well be multiple variants of SKT1 build though as I have seen Tento do a variation where he goes nexus before goon at like 18/19 and ends up with, iirc, 3 goons at the FD timing. For reference: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=222055
I was thinking of http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/2_Gate_Range_Expand
|
On January 06 2013 22:34 Berceno wrote:
what if they see the expansion and bunker rush??
hi infernal. how do you react to bunker rushes? i tried this a few times and it seems like bunker rush is quite effective since the goon and range are delayed slightly. if he doesnt commit a lot of workers to the rush then i could possibly fall behind economically and he can easily contain me.
|
On January 08 2013 08:41 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2013 07:31 bulbasaur) wrote:
Muff2n can you upload any rep with this build, the best would be with 2 facts or FD SKT1 build, aka 21 nex/1 goon FE, gets out 4 goons for FD timing (on FS they arrive a few seconds before terran gets to you're bridge). Replay: http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=52525
was it you in this replay? because the mistake of getting air armor than goon range could have cost you the nexus had his bunker been in range.
|
On January 09 2013 11:53 JMave wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2013 08:41 L_Master wrote:On January 08 2013 07:31 bulbasaur) wrote:
Muff2n can you upload any rep with this build, the best would be with 2 facts or FD SKT1 build, aka 21 nex/1 goon FE, gets out 4 goons for FD timing (on FS they arrive a few seconds before terran gets to you're bridge). Replay: http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=52525 was it you in this replay? because the mistake of getting air armor than goon range could have cost you the nexus had his bunker been in range.
S and A are too close evidently.
|
On January 09 2013 08:42 endy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 03:23 L_Master wrote:On January 08 2013 22:39 endy wrote:On January 08 2013 07:03 Muff2n wrote:
I've not done this bo, but what about this build is better than the SKT bo?:
17 goon
19 range
21 goon
23 nexus
23 goon
25 pylon
25 robo
29 gateway
30 gateway
Nexus finishes and is used as pylon
Advantages I see in this BO:
-Faster goon range and 3 goons. This means I can send them out to micro vs FD and it causes me no issue. Or I can smack the bunker a little if they went rax cc.
-Faster robo.
Neutral
Nexus is still in time to be used as a pylon before a push comes (saving minerals).
I expect the economies to be around the same, though this is a guess.
Disadvantages
You probably get a few more goons in time for a 2 fact but I feel that the SKT BO is acceptable in this instance (and you can tell something is coming because your 3 goons won't have seen a cc or an FD unless the terran tries to hide the 2 fact... which I don't feel benefits him a lot because I'll be macroing out of 3 gates for a bit until my obs is out anways.
But thanks for the guide, etc! Always interesting to see different approaches. No goon before Nex in the SKT build. Unless you're thinking of a completely different SKT1 build, there is absolutely a goon before nexus. That's part of what allows you to have 4 goons at FD timing. There may well be multiple variants of SKT1 build though as I have seen Tento do a variation where he goes nexus before goon at like 18/19 and ends up with, iirc, 3 goons at the FD timing. For reference: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=222055 I was thinking of http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/2_Gate_Range_Expand
Whoa someone added this to liquidpedia? Liquidpedia is improving.
|
On January 09 2013 17:18 puppykiller wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 08:42 endy wrote:On January 09 2013 03:23 L_Master wrote:On January 08 2013 22:39 endy wrote:On January 08 2013 07:03 Muff2n wrote:
I've not done this bo, but what about this build is better than the SKT bo?:
17 goon
19 range
21 goon
23 nexus
23 goon
25 pylon
25 robo
29 gateway
30 gateway
Nexus finishes and is used as pylon
Advantages I see in this BO:
-Faster goon range and 3 goons. This means I can send them out to micro vs FD and it causes me no issue. Or I can smack the bunker a little if they went rax cc.
-Faster robo.
Neutral
Nexus is still in time to be used as a pylon before a push comes (saving minerals).
I expect the economies to be around the same, though this is a guess.
Disadvantages
You probably get a few more goons in time for a 2 fact but I feel that the SKT BO is acceptable in this instance (and you can tell something is coming because your 3 goons won't have seen a cc or an FD unless the terran tries to hide the 2 fact... which I don't feel benefits him a lot because I'll be macroing out of 3 gates for a bit until my obs is out anways.
But thanks for the guide, etc! Always interesting to see different approaches. No goon before Nex in the SKT build. Unless you're thinking of a completely different SKT1 build, there is absolutely a goon before nexus. That's part of what allows you to have 4 goons at FD timing. There may well be multiple variants of SKT1 build though as I have seen Tento do a variation where he goes nexus before goon at like 18/19 and ends up with, iirc, 3 goons at the FD timing. For reference: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=222055 I was thinking of http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/2_Gate_Range_Expand Whoa someone added this to liquidpedia? Liquidpedia is improving.
Yes, you can thank Kiante for that guide.
|
On January 09 2013 08:24 Harem wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2013 03:23 L_Master wrote:On January 08 2013 22:39 endy wrote:On January 08 2013 07:03 Muff2n wrote:
I've not done this bo, but what about this build is better than the SKT bo?:
17 goon
19 range
21 goon
23 nexus
23 goon
25 pylon
25 robo
29 gateway
30 gateway
Nexus finishes and is used as pylon
Advantages I see in this BO:
-Faster goon range and 3 goons. This means I can send them out to micro vs FD and it causes me no issue. Or I can smack the bunker a little if they went rax cc.
-Faster robo.
Neutral
Nexus is still in time to be used as a pylon before a push comes (saving minerals).
I expect the economies to be around the same, though this is a guess.
Disadvantages
You probably get a few more goons in time for a 2 fact but I feel that the SKT BO is acceptable in this instance (and you can tell something is coming because your 3 goons won't have seen a cc or an FD unless the terran tries to hide the 2 fact... which I don't feel benefits him a lot because I'll be macroing out of 3 gates for a bit until my obs is out anways.
But thanks for the guide, etc! Always interesting to see different approaches. No goon before Nex in the SKT build. Unless you're thinking of a completely different SKT1 build, there is absolutely a goon before nexus. That's part of what allows you to have 4 goons at FD timing. There may well be multiple variants of SKT1 build though as I have seen Tento do a variation where he goes nexus before goon at like 18/19 and ends up with, iirc, 3 goons at the FD timing. For reference: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=222055 http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=52533Here's a replay of Tento crushing Shinee with his version for anyone curious.
That rep is ridiculous by the way. Shinee comes out and Tento has like everything. He seems to defend everything with it too, 3 fact, 6facts, etc. all off of like 5-7 gates.
|
iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
First up - why not the SKT build?
For me the explanation is easy.
I don't need an observer all that early.
I rather have a bigger army size, eco, faster expansion.
What could potentially happen if you skip the obs for 1-2 min?
The only thing that usually scared me off in this situation was a vulture drop but again, as I've said, add scouting pylons in drop route => problem solved. Even if he "flys around" that will buy you enough time to have your observer out + realize no push is coming and be super prepared.
The SKT1 build is basically just a very greedy 1 gate expo.
I don't really consider my build as a 1 gate expo, it's more like a hybrid of Nex first + 2 gate expo - and that's the beauty of it imo.
I do have 4 goons by the time this push arrives as well, yea, my range is slightly later but I will do infinitely better with 2 gate goon support if ANYTHING goes wrong (or very right) for the Terran with his FD - especially if he wisely decides to add a 2nd tank which usually pressures ANY sort of 1 gate expo really really hard - ob on time or not.
I rather have 6-8 goons + obs finishing that time vs it than 5 goons, 6th one making but observer ready.
As I've stated however, the build is very fragile and most people might in fact be better off just using the SKT build cause it is a lot easier to execute.
On January 09 2013 11:47 JMave wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2013 22:34 Berceno wrote:
what if they see the expansion and bunker rush??
hi infernal. how do you react to bunker rushes? i tried this a few times and it seems like bunker rush is quite effective since the goon and range are delayed slightly. if he doesnt commit a lot of workers to the rush then i could possibly fall behind economically and he can easily contain me.
Same reaction as with 13 nex basically.
If he sends a lot of SCV you sacrifice the Nexus, add Robo and pump out eco like crazy in the mean time.
Remake expo as soon as you have 4-5 goon + one zealot to clean out mines.
If he doesn't send a lot of SCV you use your probes + goons to defend, yep yep, I know, at this point you have no range, but guess what, usually scv/rine arrive before tank/vult in this scenario so you can still micro.
Even tho this is 14 Nex this game (large ass map) - the reaction is exactly the same as with my build.
1628-QuestiP-ceOT-AFallenTT.rep
Slide probes away & try to see if you can deny the bunker, if you can't stay at ramp and get ob.
If you can stop the bunker tho, you basically won the game no matter how bad you play after.
Important is that you use your 2nd Nexus to make probes as long as possible (until shit's actually hitting your Nex)
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
