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[D/G]Bisu/oov's new PvT opening

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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Kiante
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Australia7069 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-15 01:55:13
May 12 2011 02:35 GMT
#1
[image loading]




So i read the interview where bisu said he showed a new PVT build that hadn't been played on air before, so i was intrigued to go and watch the vod again. I remember thinking it was a curious build while it was being played. After watching the vod i've gone and played out the typical 1 gate FE and this new build vs an AI and i'll share my results and thoughts as to timing etc.

Build orders

Normal 1 gate FE (as is played in most pvt's on korean television these days. Note this is slightly different to the liquipedia version).

8 pylon
10 gate
11/12 gas
13 core
14 zealot
14 pylon
18 goon
21 range (pull 1 probe off gas here)
22 pylon
22 goon
27 goon
30 nexus (probe back on gas)
31 pylon

and so on
here is a replay of this i whipped up https://rapidshare.com/files/963094149/0383_CompT_asdasdP.rep
The most interesting thing to note in this comparison is the timings.

Range finishes at 4:45
Nexus finishes at 5:30
3 goons at 4:27
2nd gate finishes at 5:33

Now lets put that on ice for a bit and look at the build bisu used vs bogus yesterday (on icarus in case you're looking for the vod).

I watched it a couple of times and tried to replicate the build order, this is what i ended up with

8 pylon
10 gate
12 gas
13 core
15 pylon
17 range (pull probe from gas)
17 gate
20 nexus (cut probes to get the two goons and pylon out)
20 goon
22 goon
24 pylon (put probe back on gas)
25 2 more goons
31 robo

from here you need to respond to what the terran is doing, by either cutting goons and grabbing a fast third or teching to arbiters or defending an early rush.

here is the replay https://rapidshare.com/files/880062183/0384_asdasdP_CompT.rep
Anyways lets have a look at the timings.

2nd gate finishes at 3:35
range finishes at 4:23
nexus finishes at 4:50
4 goons at 4:53

oh heres the vod(courtesy of harem)

Analysis
So the first thing to think about is that if you get BBS'd, you're going to have a hard time, which means that maybe scouting the center of the map first would be advisable. If you do get caught off guard by proxy marines you're pretty much straight up dead unless you have gosu probe micro because you aren't making units for the first few minutes of the game lol.

Secondly you get a much faster range and more goons out faster (in the first build the fourth goon doesn't get out until after the 5:30 mark). Not to mention your second gate finishes so much earlier giving you much more potential production if there is cheese coming. One of the big weaknesses of a 1 gate FE is a 2 fac or FD. I know i have alot of trouble against these builds with a 1 gate FE as the push usually starts coming out as your three goons arrive at their base and range is almost done. With this build, while you only have 2 goons at their base, you get range done faster, allowing you to soften up the marines of an FD before pulling back to your reinforcement goons.
I would say that looking at bisu's play against bogus's strong FD, that this build is designed to completely destroy FD's. Your goon count is simply better, your economy faster. i actually got my robo up faster in the second build than i did in the first.

Now lets look at the other major difference, the nexus. You literally get a nexus 40 seconds faster, have more units at an important (stop an FD) timing. Holy shit. If the terran is doing a 1 rax FE build, your nexus starts around the same time as their cc, equalizing their economic advantage to an extent.

I would LOVE to see how this goes against 2 fac varieties, and i guess i will and i'm sure i'll be trying this out on iccup.

I'd love to hear peoples thoughts on this build. Did i get it right (my version could be wrong) so please submit corrections and i'll try to keep this up to date and maybe pretty it up a bit or add it to liquipedia if people think its viable.
Writer
Synystyr
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1446 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-12 02:46:39
May 12 2011 02:46 GMT
#2
oops.
Sky Terran TvP V2.0: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=355839
Harem
Profile Joined November 2007
United States11392 Posts
May 12 2011 02:46 GMT
#3
Wow, way to forget VOD link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXwpjj7kuks
Moderator。◕‿◕。
Lemonwalrus
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States5465 Posts
May 12 2011 02:46 GMT
#4
You are special and I love you.
Kiante
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Australia7069 Posts
May 12 2011 02:48 GMT
#5
On May 12 2011 11:46 Harem wrote:
Wow, way to forget VOD link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXwpjj7kuks

i told people how to find it
Writer
Zergneedsfood
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States10671 Posts
May 12 2011 03:24 GMT
#6
Way to ruin my dreams of getting an advantage off of 1rax cc
/人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\ Make a contract with me and join TLADT | Onodera isn't actually a girl, she's just a doormat you walk over to get to the girl. - Numy 2015
tryummm
Profile Joined August 2009
774 Posts
May 12 2011 03:28 GMT
#7
2 Factory is pretty easy to stop with 1 gate expansion build, you just need good Dragoon control and building placement. If stopped without a lot of damage, the Terran loses the game pretty easily. Moreover, the initial Zealot and/or Probe can generally scout whether or not a 2 Factory is coming. If not initially, if becomes evident since the Terran isn't making a Command Center that some sort of aggression is coming.
Kiante
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Australia7069 Posts
May 12 2011 03:32 GMT
#8
If the terran wants to deny you information, they will. Theres no real way to pre-scout a 2 fac if the terran doesn't want you too.
As for stopping 2 fac with 1 gate fe...well you need to have amazing micro and a bit of luck, because a regular 2 fac will at LEAST kill the expo of a 1 gate FE toss, in the long run losing you the game (see best vs reality if you want proof)
Writer
JMave
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Singapore1805 Posts
May 12 2011 03:33 GMT
#9
I am impressed! This is quite smart. Delay the goon for an earlier goon range and make up for goon count with an earlier second gateway.

I feel the earlier goon range is such a good counter to the 1 rax FE. He will need to spend resources on repairing the bunker much earlier, which is at a critical point before the nat CC is up. This means he is going to lose even more minerals because the timing that a tank can be up is still the same.

Hot!
火心 Jealous. I always loved that feeling when I was young. Embrace it.
ArvickHero
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
10387 Posts
May 12 2011 03:33 GMT
#10
I would like to say there's a big difference between 1-gate FE and Range-expand..
Writerptrk
aegisabcde
Profile Joined November 2008
United States145 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-12 03:37:19
May 12 2011 03:36 GMT
#11
This is weak vs a 1 rax CC timing push. Usually with a 1 gate nexus you will have 2 goons shooting at the bunker at ~4:30. Now, you'll have 2 goons shooting at ~5:00. They can shoot for only 20 seconds before siege is done. Also, w/o early dragoons to deny scouting, there is no need for T to build engineering bay/turrets. So T's early game is much smoother.

For the sake of argument, let's say you can continuously produce goons out of those 2 gates, get a robo, AND a 3rd nexus (a very generous assumption). You'll have 4 goons at 5:00, 8 at 6:00, and 10 at 7:00 + a shuttle. In Flash vs Free on Grand Line, Flash gets pressured early game (which this build can't), puts down an engineering bay (which this build won't force), and STILL is able to get 7 marines and 6 tanks at 7:00. I'd say 7 marines + 6 tanks + scvs > 10 goons + a shuttle.

I still like this P build though, but I'm just pointing out its one huge weakness.
XenOsky
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Chile2279 Posts
May 12 2011 03:41 GMT
#12
nice thread, just by the look of it, im really liking it... gonna try some games.
StarCraft & Audax Italiano.
Kiante
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Australia7069 Posts
May 12 2011 03:42 GMT
#13
On May 12 2011 12:41 XenOsky- wrote:
nice thread, just by the look of it, im really liking it... gonna try some games.

oh hi there
nice games this morning
Writer
Hyde
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
Australia14568 Posts
May 12 2011 03:55 GMT
#14
On May 12 2011 12:28 tryummm wrote:
2 Factory is pretty easy to stop with 1 gate expansion build, you just need good Dragoon control and building placement. If stopped without a lot of damage, the Terran loses the game pretty easily. Moreover, the initial Zealot and/or Probe can generally scout whether or not a 2 Factory is coming. If not initially, if becomes evident since the Terran isn't making a Command Center that some sort of aggression is coming.

It's hard of hard to tell what's coming when they've denied or chased your probe out with a marine and then walled off, no real way to tell if he has a second factory until he actually moves out. You can't always count on looking for the CC either as they can build it in the main and float it out.

I'm really liking the timings of this build though, good work Kiante
Because when you left, Brood War was all spotlights and titans. Now, with the death of the big leagues, Brood War has moved to the basements and carparks. Now, Brood War is unlicensed brawls, lost teeth, and bloody fights for fistfulls of money - SirJolt
Kiante
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Australia7069 Posts
May 12 2011 03:57 GMT
#15
If there is a tank timing push coming, and they've skipped turrets you'll have obs in their base and scout it before you drop your third (if you dont you're just greedy). From there you can just drop a few more gates, delay the push a little and be safe. Shuttles are trey strong when it comes to pushes with low vulture counts
Writer
FyRe_DragOn
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Canada2056 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-12 04:05:43
May 12 2011 03:59 GMT
#16
i believe infernal used to do this, or something very similar to it. he got 1 dragoon, nexus, range, 2nd gateway iirc.

anyway both versions are weak to a 5marine+vulture+scv attack, like those commonly used against 12nexus. In this case, the protoss has the option of canceling his nexus though..possibly holding his ramp and being able to counter attack before siege or mines...

this could have some potential specially on 2player maps, to remove the threat of BBS and 1rax cc.

ill probably try it out in the next few days

edit: also 10 dragoons beats 6 tanks and 7 marines with scvs..u just one shot every tank, then clean up the marines
aka DragOn[NaS]
Kiante
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Australia7069 Posts
May 12 2011 04:01 GMT
#17
On May 12 2011 12:59 FyRe_DragOn wrote:
i believe infernal used to do this, or something very similar to it. he got 1 dragoon, nexus, range, 2nd gateway iirc.

anyway both versions are weak to a 5marine+vulture+scv attack, like those commonly used against 12nexus. In this case, the protoss has the option of canceling his nexus though..possibly holding his ramp and being able to counter attack before siege or mines...

this could have some potential specially on 2player maps, to remove the threat of BBS

ill probably try it out in the next few days


you get the gates up so fast. you'll have 2 goons out by the time this push comes to your base. Pull a couple of probes and you're safe, sure you might lose a probe or two but its not the end of the world, then you get 2 more goons popping out and you can immediately counter while the terran is building their machine shop/making tank and potentially do more damage
Writer
shinjin
Profile Joined January 2010
United States398 Posts
May 12 2011 04:06 GMT
#18
wow this looks really interesting, and could possibly net very big advantages at low levels of iccup...eg. up until C-

will definitely be trying this variation
give it one more try because the best things in life dont come free.
FyRe_DragOn
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Canada2056 Posts
May 12 2011 04:07 GMT
#19
On May 12 2011 13:01 Kiante wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2011 12:59 FyRe_DragOn wrote:
i believe infernal used to do this, or something very similar to it. he got 1 dragoon, nexus, range, 2nd gateway iirc.

anyway both versions are weak to a 5marine+vulture+scv attack, like those commonly used against 12nexus. In this case, the protoss has the option of canceling his nexus though..possibly holding his ramp and being able to counter attack before siege or mines...

this could have some potential specially on 2player maps, to remove the threat of BBS

ill probably try it out in the next few days


you get the gates up so fast. you'll have 2 goons out by the time this push comes to your base. Pull a couple of probes and you're safe, sure you might lose a probe or two but its not the end of the world, then you get 2 more goons popping out and you can immediately counter while the terran is building their machine shop/making tank and potentially do more damage


i dont think this would work with rangeless dragoons..they r pretty bad. does range finish in time? i think it would come when your 2nd dragoon had just popped, and range not done yet, but not sure..
aka DragOn[NaS]
aegisabcde
Profile Joined November 2008
United States145 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-12 04:09:25
May 12 2011 04:08 GMT
#20
But if you look at that Bisu Bogus VOD you'll notice that his observer pops at 6:30. By the time it gets to T's base at 7:00, the tank push is already moving out. Cutting goons temporarily for a faster observer will make your goon count lower.

Also, vs a 1 rax CC, the more you delay your third, the larger T's window gets. Any competent T will know not to push out till he knows you've probably expanded. And the longer you stay on two bases, the more powerful T's two bases get.
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