So i read the interview where bisu said he showed a new PVT build that hadn't been played on air before, so i was intrigued to go and watch the vod again. I remember thinking it was a curious build while it was being played. After watching the vod i've gone and played out the typical 1 gate FE and this new build vs an AI and i'll share my results and thoughts as to timing etc.
Build orders
Normal 1 gate FE (as is played in most pvt's on korean television these days. Note this is slightly different to the liquipedia version).
8 pylon 10 gate 11/12 gas 13 core 14 zealot 14 pylon 18 goon 21 range (pull 1 probe off gas here) 22 pylon 22 goon 27 goon 30 nexus (probe back on gas) 31 pylon
Range finishes at 4:45 Nexus finishes at 5:30 3 goons at 4:27 2nd gate finishes at 5:33
Now lets put that on ice for a bit and look at the build bisu used vs bogus yesterday (on icarus in case you're looking for the vod).
I watched it a couple of times and tried to replicate the build order, this is what i ended up with
8 pylon 10 gate 12 gas 13 core 15 pylon 17 range (pull probe from gas) 17 gate 20 nexus (cut probes to get the two goons and pylon out) 20 goon 22 goon 24 pylon (put probe back on gas) 25 2 more goons 31 robo
from here you need to respond to what the terran is doing, by either cutting goons and grabbing a fast third or teching to arbiters or defending an early rush.
2nd gate finishes at 3:35 range finishes at 4:23 nexus finishes at 4:50 4 goons at 4:53
oh heres the vod(courtesy of harem) Analysis So the first thing to think about is that if you get BBS'd, you're going to have a hard time, which means that maybe scouting the center of the map first would be advisable. If you do get caught off guard by proxy marines you're pretty much straight up dead unless you have gosu probe micro because you aren't making units for the first few minutes of the game lol.
Secondly you get a much faster range and more goons out faster (in the first build the fourth goon doesn't get out until after the 5:30 mark). Not to mention your second gate finishes so much earlier giving you much more potential production if there is cheese coming. One of the big weaknesses of a 1 gate FE is a 2 fac or FD. I know i have alot of trouble against these builds with a 1 gate FE as the push usually starts coming out as your three goons arrive at their base and range is almost done. With this build, while you only have 2 goons at their base, you get range done faster, allowing you to soften up the marines of an FD before pulling back to your reinforcement goons. I would say that looking at bisu's play against bogus's strong FD, that this build is designed to completely destroy FD's. Your goon count is simply better, your economy faster. i actually got my robo up faster in the second build than i did in the first.
Now lets look at the other major difference, the nexus. You literally get a nexus 40 seconds faster, have more units at an important (stop an FD) timing. Holy shit. If the terran is doing a 1 rax FE build, your nexus starts around the same time as their cc, equalizing their economic advantage to an extent.
I would LOVE to see how this goes against 2 fac varieties, and i guess i will and i'm sure i'll be trying this out on iccup.
I'd love to hear peoples thoughts on this build. Did i get it right (my version could be wrong) so please submit corrections and i'll try to keep this up to date and maybe pretty it up a bit or add it to liquipedia if people think its viable.
2 Factory is pretty easy to stop with 1 gate expansion build, you just need good Dragoon control and building placement. If stopped without a lot of damage, the Terran loses the game pretty easily. Moreover, the initial Zealot and/or Probe can generally scout whether or not a 2 Factory is coming. If not initially, if becomes evident since the Terran isn't making a Command Center that some sort of aggression is coming.
If the terran wants to deny you information, they will. Theres no real way to pre-scout a 2 fac if the terran doesn't want you too. As for stopping 2 fac with 1 gate fe...well you need to have amazing micro and a bit of luck, because a regular 2 fac will at LEAST kill the expo of a 1 gate FE toss, in the long run losing you the game (see best vs reality if you want proof)
I am impressed! This is quite smart. Delay the goon for an earlier goon range and make up for goon count with an earlier second gateway.
I feel the earlier goon range is such a good counter to the 1 rax FE. He will need to spend resources on repairing the bunker much earlier, which is at a critical point before the nat CC is up. This means he is going to lose even more minerals because the timing that a tank can be up is still the same.
This is weak vs a 1 rax CC timing push. Usually with a 1 gate nexus you will have 2 goons shooting at the bunker at ~4:30. Now, you'll have 2 goons shooting at ~5:00. They can shoot for only 20 seconds before siege is done. Also, w/o early dragoons to deny scouting, there is no need for T to build engineering bay/turrets. So T's early game is much smoother.
For the sake of argument, let's say you can continuously produce goons out of those 2 gates, get a robo, AND a 3rd nexus (a very generous assumption). You'll have 4 goons at 5:00, 8 at 6:00, and 10 at 7:00 + a shuttle. In Flash vs Free on Grand Line, Flash gets pressured early game (which this build can't), puts down an engineering bay (which this build won't force), and STILL is able to get 7 marines and 6 tanks at 7:00. I'd say 7 marines + 6 tanks + scvs > 10 goons + a shuttle.
I still like this P build though, but I'm just pointing out its one huge weakness.
On May 12 2011 12:28 tryummm wrote: 2 Factory is pretty easy to stop with 1 gate expansion build, you just need good Dragoon control and building placement. If stopped without a lot of damage, the Terran loses the game pretty easily. Moreover, the initial Zealot and/or Probe can generally scout whether or not a 2 Factory is coming. If not initially, if becomes evident since the Terran isn't making a Command Center that some sort of aggression is coming.
It's hard of hard to tell what's coming when they've denied or chased your probe out with a marine and then walled off, no real way to tell if he has a second factory until he actually moves out. You can't always count on looking for the CC either as they can build it in the main and float it out.
I'm really liking the timings of this build though, good work Kiante
If there is a tank timing push coming, and they've skipped turrets you'll have obs in their base and scout it before you drop your third (if you dont you're just greedy). From there you can just drop a few more gates, delay the push a little and be safe. Shuttles are trey strong when it comes to pushes with low vulture counts
i believe infernal used to do this, or something very similar to it. he got 1 dragoon, nexus, range, 2nd gateway iirc.
anyway both versions are weak to a 5marine+vulture+scv attack, like those commonly used against 12nexus. In this case, the protoss has the option of canceling his nexus though..possibly holding his ramp and being able to counter attack before siege or mines...
this could have some potential specially on 2player maps, to remove the threat of BBS and 1rax cc.
ill probably try it out in the next few days
edit: also 10 dragoons beats 6 tanks and 7 marines with scvs..u just one shot every tank, then clean up the marines
On May 12 2011 12:59 FyRe_DragOn wrote: i believe infernal used to do this, or something very similar to it. he got 1 dragoon, nexus, range, 2nd gateway iirc.
anyway both versions are weak to a 5marine+vulture+scv attack, like those commonly used against 12nexus. In this case, the protoss has the option of canceling his nexus though..possibly holding his ramp and being able to counter attack before siege or mines...
this could have some potential specially on 2player maps, to remove the threat of BBS
ill probably try it out in the next few days
you get the gates up so fast. you'll have 2 goons out by the time this push comes to your base. Pull a couple of probes and you're safe, sure you might lose a probe or two but its not the end of the world, then you get 2 more goons popping out and you can immediately counter while the terran is building their machine shop/making tank and potentially do more damage
On May 12 2011 12:59 FyRe_DragOn wrote: i believe infernal used to do this, or something very similar to it. he got 1 dragoon, nexus, range, 2nd gateway iirc.
anyway both versions are weak to a 5marine+vulture+scv attack, like those commonly used against 12nexus. In this case, the protoss has the option of canceling his nexus though..possibly holding his ramp and being able to counter attack before siege or mines...
this could have some potential specially on 2player maps, to remove the threat of BBS
ill probably try it out in the next few days
you get the gates up so fast. you'll have 2 goons out by the time this push comes to your base. Pull a couple of probes and you're safe, sure you might lose a probe or two but its not the end of the world, then you get 2 more goons popping out and you can immediately counter while the terran is building their machine shop/making tank and potentially do more damage
i dont think this would work with rangeless dragoons..they r pretty bad. does range finish in time? i think it would come when your 2nd dragoon had just popped, and range not done yet, but not sure..
But if you look at that Bisu Bogus VOD you'll notice that his observer pops at 6:30. By the time it gets to T's base at 7:00, the tank push is already moving out. Cutting goons temporarily for a faster observer will make your goon count lower.
Also, vs a 1 rax CC, the more you delay your third, the larger T's window gets. Any competent T will know not to push out till he knows you've probably expanded. And the longer you stay on two bases, the more powerful T's two bases get.
On May 12 2011 13:08 aegisabcde wrote: But if you look at that Bisu Bogus VOD you'll notice that his observer pops at 6:30. By the time it gets to T's base at 7:00, the tank push is already moving out. Cutting goons temporarily for a faster observer will make your goon count lower.
Also, vs a 1 rax CC, the more you delay your third, the larger T's window gets. Any competent T will know not to push out till he knows you've probably expanded. And the longer you stay on two bases, the more powerful T's two bases get.
or you go for a 2 base arbiter and totally lockdown the game there.
On May 12 2011 13:08 aegisabcde wrote: But if you look at that Bisu Bogus VOD you'll notice that his observer pops at 6:30. By the time it gets to T's base at 7:00, the tank push is already moving out. Cutting goons temporarily for a faster observer will make your goon count lower.
Also, vs a 1 rax CC, the more you delay your third, the larger T's window gets. Any competent T will know not to push out till he knows you've probably expanded. And the longer you stay on two bases, the more powerful T's two bases get.
or you go for a 2 base arbiter and totally lockdown the game there.
That's what I would do if I were doing this build vs a 1 rax CC.
reyis has a good point. if you do see a 1 rax FE you could skip detection entirely, get some dt's out and go 4 gate 2 base arbiter. You use dt's to waste scans while you try and get an arbiter out.
I think that one of the keys of this build is the fact that you get super super late scouting - you lose many of the advantages that this build has if you scout before about 20 supply.
i scouted after core in my test run and still hit those timings. You need to scout before the nexus goes down or you could insta-lose to an un-scouted bbs, hence why i recommended proxy searching, one of this BO's main weaknesses.
On May 12 2011 13:20 Kiante wrote: What happens if you scout them last and you've already dropped your second gateway?
like i said earlier, i think this build would be strong on 2player maps. I probably wouldnt use it on 4player but i havent tested it out at all yet either
On May 12 2011 12:36 aegisabcde wrote: This is weak vs a 1 rax CC timing push. Usually with a 1 gate nexus you will have 2 goons shooting at the bunker at ~4:30. Now, you'll have 2 goons shooting at ~5:00. They can shoot for only 20 seconds before siege is done. Also, w/o early dragoons to deny scouting, there is no need for T to build engineering bay/turrets. So T's early game is much smoother.
For the sake of argument, let's say you can continuously produce goons out of those 2 gates, get a robo, AND a 3rd nexus (a very generous assumption). You'll have 4 goons at 5:00, 8 at 6:00, and 10 at 7:00 + a shuttle. In Flash vs Free on Grand Line, Flash gets pressured early game (which this build can't), puts down an engineering bay (which this build won't force), and STILL is able to get 7 marines and 6 tanks at 7:00. I'd say 7 marines + 6 tanks + scvs > 10 goons + a shuttle.
I still like this P build though, but I'm just pointing out its one huge weakness.
I didn't read half of what you said just because you mentioned 2 goons @ 4:30 vs a bunker (range doesn't even finish until 4:45 he said and the other build has faster range) How do you kill a bunker with no range?
Now that its been revealed hopefully the SKT protosses will start using this in pvt more often so we can see what decisions they make when they come up against 1 rax fe's. This build is so raw i figured we could start speculating now >.>
On May 12 2011 12:36 aegisabcde wrote: This is weak vs a 1 rax CC timing push. Usually with a 1 gate nexus you will have 2 goons shooting at the bunker at ~4:30. Now, you'll have 2 goons shooting at ~5:00. They can shoot for only 20 seconds before siege is done. Also, w/o early dragoons to deny scouting, there is no need for T to build engineering bay/turrets. So T's early game is much smoother.
For the sake of argument, let's say you can continuously produce goons out of those 2 gates, get a robo, AND a 3rd nexus (a very generous assumption). You'll have 4 goons at 5:00, 8 at 6:00, and 10 at 7:00 + a shuttle. In Flash vs Free on Grand Line, Flash gets pressured early game (which this build can't), puts down an engineering bay (which this build won't force), and STILL is able to get 7 marines and 6 tanks at 7:00. I'd say 7 marines + 6 tanks + scvs > 10 goons + a shuttle.
I still like this P build though, but I'm just pointing out its one huge weakness.
I didn't read half of what you said just because you mentioned 2 goons @ 4:30 vs a bunker (range doesn't even finish until 4:45 he said and the other build has faster range) How do you kill a bunker with no range?
Why should I reference that when I know when range can finish? For example, in this game it clearly finishes at 4:38.
The timings just came out of the replay that i ran. Theres obviously some level of leeway here (eg: if i cut a probe to get range out it would come out a few seconds earlier, aka 4:38)
On May 12 2011 12:59 FyRe_DragOn wrote: edit: also 10 dragoons beats 6 tanks and 7 marines with scvs..u just one shot every tank, then clean up the marines
Without siege, maybe, with siege, no way, and there's no reason why you wouldn't have siege at that timing. Flash had it btw. The marines dps alone would take out quite a few dragoons. Also, try defending against this push when the tanks are parked outside your natural. It's not like you will have much room for splitting your dragoons or surrounding him.
the idea with that kind of push is you have your dragoons delay the push by forcing siege while you get a shuttle and some zealots out. once they're out you can bomb the tanks and you're sweet
MBCGame Hero Protosses used it in a few games around that time. Classic opens with the rax double so I think you will be interested in this game. It is a brilliant game. Very clean, Im tempted to do an analysis on it.
Also you mentioned bias towards SK Telecom T1 players; Best has used the build on Fortress several times. Off the top, one against Frozen where he goes arbiter then 3rd nexus, and also one against ForGG where he goes 3rd nexus after 3rd gate with obs. Ive got the build orders written down for both these games if you want them.
The build is map dependant. Icarus and Fortress are short rush maps relative to others. Thats why you want a slightly larger army earlier on to be safe. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=193287 Flash vs Grape on Icarus, search the interview for the word 'rush'.
In my opinion: A protoss player can use range, 2nd gate, nexus build against a factory first build by Terran to great effect, especially on aggressive maps. If P sees a rax expand, skip the second gate and get the nexus. This is a general rule for todays current maps. In starcraft things change.
Overall go watch Classic vs Tyson. It is one of my favourite games of last year! Enjoy
...no one has used the 2 Gate Range FE build before. Those games you listed are classic examples of the normal 2 Gate Range, but they sacrifice economy for much stronger aggression, whereas 2 Gate Range FE for some reason has an even better economy than 1 Gate Range FE
MBCGame Hero Protosses used it in a few games around that time. Classic opens with the rax double so I think you will be interested in this game. It is a brilliant game. Very clean, Im tempted to do an analysis on it.
Also you mentioned bias towards SK Telecom T1 players; Best has used the build on Fortress several times. Off the top, one against Frozen where he goes arbiter then 3rd nexus, and also one against ForGG where he goes 3rd nexus after 3rd gate with obs. Ive got the build orders written down for both these games if you want them.
The build is map dependant. Icarus and Fortress are short rush maps relative to others. Thats why you want a slightly larger army earlier on to be safe. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=193287 Flash vs Grape on Icarus, search the interview for the word 'rush'.
In my opinion: A protoss player can use range, 2nd gate, nexus build against a factory first build by Terran to great effect, especially on aggressive maps. If P sees a rax expand, skip the second gate and get the nexus. This is a general rule for todays current maps. In starcraft things change.
Overall go watch Classic vs Tyson. It is one of my favourite games of last year! Enjoy
i watched the vod. the build is different. What makes this build unique is you literally DONT MAKE A GOON before your nexus. Nothing, JUST range. The classic tyson game was a regular 2 gate, this build is special
imo this build could struggle, if the terran builds just a bunker at ur nat, since u have no units, u cant really stop it. so in the end i think the timings of the first goons are nearly the same as them if u do 12 nexus.
to all the people saying that it dies to bbs, couldnt the toss just scout first for the bbs and then go on its regular rounds. The gates are there to start the zealot production just that they are not used so if a bbs is scouted should it not be easy to switch
Aren't y'all comparing a CoreZ build against a no-zealot build? CoreZ builds cut probe and slightly delay dragoon to get an early zealot. If you don't have plans for that zealot, you do not open CoreZ.
The oddity in this build is that you go Range-Gate-Nexus before building any units. Is this really better than going Range-Goon-Nexus?
On May 13 2011 12:09 Severedevil wrote: The oddity in this build is that you go Range-Gate-Nexus before building any units. Is this really better than going Range-Goon-Nexus?
Your pulling probes off gas after range to get a faster nexus. I guess also cause your 2nd gate comes out faster, you'll have move units later on against fac timing pushes.
A bit off topic but does anyone know what happened to the 10/15 pressure build that use to be popular back in the days. I remember it being used a lot on Medusa and some other maps.
On May 13 2011 12:09 Severedevil wrote: The oddity in this build is that you go Range-Gate-Nexus before building any units. Is this really better than going Range-Goon-Nexus?
Your pulling probes off gas after range to get a faster nexus. I guess also cause your 2nd gate comes out faster, you'll have move units later on against fac timing pushes.
A bit off topic but does anyone know what happened to the 10/15 pressure build that use to be popular back in the days. I remember it being used a lot on Medusa and some other maps.
I use it occasionally. Its fairly easy to block and easy to scout and puts you behind if they defend it, which is probably why korean pros dont use it very often.
On May 13 2011 12:09 Severedevil wrote: The oddity in this build is that you go Range-Gate-Nexus before building any units. Is this really better than going Range-Goon-Nexus?
Your pulling probes off gas after range to get a faster nexus.
Of course. That's a very basic piece of optimization... normal 1 gate FE builds don't mine more gas than they want, either.
I guess also cause your 2nd gate comes out faster, you'll have move units later on against fac timing pushes.
You're buying an earlier second gateway to pump more dragoons. And to get it, you're not pumping dragoons.
On May 13 2011 08:31 JMave wrote: Ya man. I think this build dies to BBS.
please read the OP. I recommend scouting for proxies and not doing this if you see a BBS
I have read the OP. Your assumption is based on proxy BBS. Even if he decides to go for BBS in his own base, you are still going to die if you do this build because of how late your units arrive.
I feel that the proxy is useful for a double rax rush but not needed. The only real significance is proxy off 1 rax because common logic is that your marine count is double with BBS than with a single proxy rax.
On May 13 2011 12:09 Severedevil wrote: The oddity in this build is that you go Range-Gate-Nexus before building any units. Is this really better than going Range-Goon-Nexus?
Your pulling probes off gas after range to get a faster nexus.
Of course. That's a very basic piece of optimization... normal 1 gate FE builds don't mine more gas than they want, either.
I guess also cause your 2nd gate comes out faster, you'll have move units later on against fac timing pushes.
You're buying an earlier second gateway to pump more dragoons. And to get it, you're not pumping dragoons.
Why is that a good idea?
Because it gives you faster range allowing you to slow down FE's etc. You get 4 goons at a critical timing to defend an FD push (as we saw in the bisu bogus game). If you say got 1 gate then took the expo, you'd just have less goons all up and straight up die to the FD
On May 13 2011 08:31 JMave wrote: Ya man. I think this build dies to BBS.
please read the OP. I recommend scouting for proxies and not doing this if you see a BBS
I have read the OP. Your assumption is based on proxy BBS. Even if he decides to go for BBS in his own base, you are still going to die if you do this build because of how late your units arrive.
I feel that the proxy is useful for a double rax rush but not needed. The only real significance is proxy off 1 rax because common logic is that your marine count is double with BBS than with a single proxy rax.
i've literally never, ever, seen someone do an in base BBS. Not to mention, in this build, you scout. You get 2 gateways fast. if something is up, you dont drop your nexus and you get units instead. easy peasy.
honestly though, where are you finding these terrans doing their in base BBS, seriously. O.o
On May 13 2011 08:31 JMave wrote: Ya man. I think this build dies to BBS.
please read the OP. I recommend scouting for proxies and not doing this if you see a BBS
I have read the OP. Your assumption is based on proxy BBS. Even if he decides to go for BBS in his own base, you are still going to die if you do this build because of how late your units arrive.
I feel that the proxy is useful for a double rax rush but not needed. The only real significance is proxy off 1 rax because common logic is that your marine count is double with BBS than with a single proxy rax.
an in base BBS makes no sense since the distance is so long for marine follow ups, even if you take down the nexus, the protoss has range done and two gates, while you have two barracks and a bunker. I think this build has some flexibility, especially for in base BBS that gets scouted, cutting probes for that first dragoon, if scouting goes well
On May 13 2011 08:31 JMave wrote: Ya man. I think this build dies to BBS.
please read the OP. I recommend scouting for proxies and not doing this if you see a BBS
I have read the OP. Your assumption is based on proxy BBS. Even if he decides to go for BBS in his own base, you are still going to die if you do this build because of how late your units arrive.
I feel that the proxy is useful for a double rax rush but not needed. The only real significance is proxy off 1 rax because common logic is that your marine count is double with BBS than with a single proxy rax.
an in base BBS makes no sense since the distance is so long for marine follow ups, even if you take down the nexus, the protoss has range done and two gates, while you have two barracks and a bunker. I think this build has some flexibility, especially for in base BBS that gets scouted, cutting probes for that first dragoon, if scouting goes well
I'm not really sure but you might be talking about something against a 12 nexus or something because there would be no way his nat nexus would be up by the time you attack with BBS. For BBS, your attack is way before range is complete and the completion of a second gateway wouldn't be up unless he had gone for a 10/15 gate.
EDIT: But I don't know. Since the success of BBS against a 1 gate FE is dependent on the first goon, the delay of the first goon for range in this build optimizes the BBS timing a lot more. One thing is for sure, you cannot continue with this build if you scout a BBS.
It's killing me that I don't have a mouse right now, to test whether Range-Gate-Nexus actually has any advantages over Range-Goon-Nexus.
It feels wrong that you could increase your dragoon count by cutting dragoons to build an earlier gateway. It feels pointless to have dragoon range before your first dragoon could reach the opponent's base (according to the recorded timings). It feels weak to allow the opponent such extensive scouting of your base. (Terran that knows he doesn't need missile turrets? Very hard to play against.)
Would someone please test this build order against a comparable build that switches the positions of the first dragoon and the second gateway? (Note - you will want 11 gas, not 12 gas, since you're not scouting early (so 11 gas does not inflict a probe cut) and you need a fully 200 gas.)
On May 13 2011 08:31 JMave wrote: Ya man. I think this build dies to BBS.
please read the OP. I recommend scouting for proxies and not doing this if you see a BBS
I have read the OP. Your assumption is based on proxy BBS. Even if he decides to go for BBS in his own base, you are still going to die if you do this build because of how late your units arrive.
I feel that the proxy is useful for a double rax rush but not needed. The only real significance is proxy off 1 rax because common logic is that your marine count is double with BBS than with a single proxy rax.
an in base BBS makes no sense since the distance is so long for marine follow ups, even if you take down the nexus, the protoss has range done and two gates, while you have two barracks and a bunker. I think this build has some flexibility, especially for in base BBS that gets scouted, cutting probes for that first dragoon, if scouting goes well
I'm not really sure but you might be talking about something against a 12 nexus or something because there would be no way his nat nexus would be up by the time you attack with BBS. For BBS, your attack is way before range is complete and the completion of a second gateway wouldn't be up unless he had gone for a 10/15 gate.
EDIT: But I don't know. Since the success of BBS against a 1 gate FE is dependent on the first goon, the delay of the first goon for range in this build optimizes the BBS timing a lot more. One thing is for sure, you cannot continue with this build if you scout a BBS.
yes, and this is noted in the OP. Whats the problem?
yeah the opening is very greedy but it is also safe. you need to scout whole time the terrans marine count tho. aslong as you are scouting, you should be fine against any earlier agression.
On May 13 2011 08:31 JMave wrote: Ya man. I think this build dies to BBS.
please read the OP. I recommend scouting for proxies and not doing this if you see a BBS
I have read the OP. Your assumption is based on proxy BBS. Even if he decides to go for BBS in his own base, you are still going to die if you do this build because of how late your units arrive.
I feel that the proxy is useful for a double rax rush but not needed. The only real significance is proxy off 1 rax because common logic is that your marine count is double with BBS than with a single proxy rax.
an in base BBS makes no sense since the distance is so long for marine follow ups, even if you take down the nexus, the protoss has range done and two gates, while you have two barracks and a bunker. I think this build has some flexibility, especially for in base BBS that gets scouted, cutting probes for that first dragoon, if scouting goes well
I'm not really sure but you might be talking about something against a 12 nexus or something because there would be no way his nat nexus would be up by the time you attack with BBS. For BBS, your attack is way before range is complete and the completion of a second gateway wouldn't be up unless he had gone for a 10/15 gate.
EDIT: But I don't know. Since the success of BBS against a 1 gate FE is dependent on the first goon, the delay of the first goon for range in this build optimizes the BBS timing a lot more. One thing is for sure, you cannot continue with this build if you scout a BBS.
yes, and this is noted in the OP. Whats the problem?
The problem is scouting the BBS in time. Since you are rushing the nexus and the second gateway in time for goon influx, you will not be able to scout as early as you would, probably as late as after you plant down the second gateway.
Well, if you are going to follow Bisu's exact build, then that is something you should question as well.
If it is a significant thing to note that you should remove one probe from gas after starting range, this should mean that the difference in scouting timing will also make a significant difference and should be questioned just as much.
The reason why I feel what you said doesn't really make sense to me is because it doesn't keep in flow with the whole intention of the build. If you have to cut one probe or two to get goons out earlier and to scout earlier, then why go this build in the first place? Going for a standard 10 gate 10 scout and 13 core is much better because it serves its purpose.
EDIT: But ya, lol. I made a complete fool of myself with the in base BBS. ^^
the scouting timings are to taste, some people scout after core, some scout after gate, etc etc. its really not a big deal. you cut the probe off gas because otherwise you end up with a gas excess. more minerals are better but not vital. its the same any any other build. The big concepts to take away are getting range but not units before you drop your expo and what that means in terms of how you respond to different builds (aka if you 12 nex and get bbs'd, you die. if u do this build, get bbs'd, you see it, and diverege by building units. hence making it safer than a 12 nex by far)
On May 13 2011 17:51 Kiante wrote: the scouting timings are to taste, some people scout after core, some scout after gate, etc etc. its really not a big deal. you cut the probe off gas because otherwise you end up with a gas excess. more minerals are better but not vital. its the same any any other build. The big concepts to take away are getting range but not units before you drop your expo and what that means in terms of how you respond to different builds (aka if you 12 nex and get bbs'd, you die. if u do this build, get bbs'd, you see it, and diverege by building units. hence making it safer than a 12 nex by far)
Werra and JMave I agree. I also agree with Pyrogenetix who says the build is very interesting. It really is interesting.
Severedevil, consider the zerg race. They build drones and hatcheries and tech for as long as possible then switch over to making an army for as long as is necessary before going back to improving economy, infrastructure and more tech. This concept is exactly the same for Terran and Protoss. If you can get away with building 3 command centres before a barracks and then 20 factories before a single army unit you would but maps dont allow this. Do you see what Im saying? I hope that helps you.
Hafnium, I disagree. I believe the build would be exceptionally good at defending 2 factory timing attacks. And I think Bisu actually anticipated Bogus was a high contender to do a 2 fac and later drop to exploit the ledge due to his style. I believe he read Bogus and risked it all to win in this game. Bisu essentially didnt scout at all. Bisu made the game a 50/50 game. He absolutely cheesed. A protoss who doesnt scout early and doesnt make a zealot is cheesing. Bisu is guilty already but then doesnt make a goon either. Absolutely 100% cheese. My definition of cheese is taking a risk that means you would guaranteed lose the game if the opponent does something. You gamble that he doesnt do this thing. If he doesnt, it will give you a very powerful timing attack later in the game and that is the attraction.
If Bogus had scouted 12 o clock first it would have been a different game. Instead, Bogus scouts late and his own cheese build (1 fac drop) was already beaten.
If Bogus had scouted first try, it would have been interesting to see who won. If Bisu had scouted earlier I would be very excited. Lets see what Bisu does on the future but I dont think this build has a future personally.
PS Rhaegar99, 10 15 gate is map dependant as are all builds. Think about Medusas architecture. It is rampless and quite wide aswell. Early timing attacks are therefore stronger than on other maps. However, the earlier your timing attack is, the less chances you have given yourself to pull ahead previously with small details, and therefore the less likely you are to suceed. This is why the later your timing attack is, the better. The best player never actually attacks fully, they just threaten before cementing the lead further with more upgrades, economy and infrastructure. But if you see an opportunity, by all means punish the opponent as much as you can while still not opening yourself up to counters. That is perfect play and that is why early attacks like 10 15 are not popular at the highest level.
On May 13 2011 15:48 Severedevil wrote: It's killing me that I don't have a mouse right now, to test whether Range-Gate-Nexus actually has any advantages over Range-Goon-Nexus.
It feels wrong that you could increase your dragoon count by cutting dragoons to build an earlier gateway. It feels pointless to have dragoon range before your first dragoon could reach the opponent's base (according to the recorded timings). It feels weak to allow the opponent such extensive scouting of your base. (Terran that knows he doesn't need missile turrets? Very hard to play against.)
Would someone please test this build order against a comparable build that switches the positions of the first dragoon and the second gateway? (Note - you will want 11 gas, not 12 gas, since you're not scouting early (so 11 gas does not inflict a probe cut) and you need a fully 200 gas.)
It feels wrong, but its not. When a 2 Fac/FD of some sort hits a Protoss that just 1 gate FEed, it hits at a timing that either the Protoss is stopping goons slightly to get that nexus (no 2nd gateway), OR the nexus is almost complete (I think, if done properly), but the Protoss hadn't had time to gain the econ benefits to add more gates and produce more goons.
In this case, the nexus is already done at the FD timing, while the Protoss is making dragoons out of both gates. Like Kiate said, in that critical FD timing, Protoss has 4 ranged goons instead of 3 rangeless goon and a zealot to hold off the FD. The range is to stop the FD timing, not for your first goon to harass, because by the time your goon makes it to their base, their tank will prolly be out any second. lol
As for the no missile turret thing. I find that building a turret ring isn't too bad. Sure it wastes resource, but it prevents obs scouting puts a lot more pressure mentality wise on the Protoss. Plus, you have to sac an obs in hopes of scouting the Terran base.
On May 13 2011 22:51 Miwyfe wrote: Werra and JMave I agree. I also agree with Pyrogenetix who says the build is very interesting. It really is interesting.
Severedevil, consider the zerg race. They build drones and hatcheries and tech for as long as possible then switch over to making an army for as long as is necessary before going back to improving economy, infrastructure and more tech. This concept is exactly the same for Terran and Protoss. If you can get away with building 3 command centres before a barracks and then 20 factories before a single army unit you would but maps dont allow this. Do you see what Im saying? I hope that helps you.
Hafnium, I disagree. I believe the build would be exceptionally good at defending 2 factory timing attacks. And I think Bisu actually anticipated Bogus was a high contender to do a 2 fac and later drop to exploit the ledge due to his style. I believe he read Bogus and risked it all to win in this game. Bisu essentially didnt scout at all. Bisu made the game a 50/50 game. He absolutely cheesed. A protoss who doesnt scout early and doesnt make a zealot is cheesing. Bisu is guilty already but then doesnt make a goon either. Absolutely 100% cheese. My definition of cheese is taking a risk that means you would guaranteed lose the game if the opponent does something. You gamble that he doesnt do this thing. If he doesnt, it will give you a very powerful timing attack later in the game and that is the attraction.
If Bogus had scouted 12 o clock first it would have been a different game. Instead, Bogus scouts late and his own cheese build (1 fac drop) was already beaten.
If Bogus had scouted first try, it would have been interesting to see who won. If Bisu had scouted earlier I would be very excited. Lets see what Bisu does on the future but I dont think this build has a future personally.
PS Rhaegar99, 10 15 gate is map dependant as are all builds. Think about Medusas architecture. It is rampless and quite wide aswell. Early timing attacks are therefore stronger than on other maps. However, the earlier your timing attack is, the less chances you have given yourself to pull ahead previously with small details, and therefore the less likely you are to suceed. This is why the later your timing attack is, the better. The best player never actually attacks fully, they just threaten before cementing the lead further with more upgrades, economy and infrastructure. But if you see an opportunity, by all means punish the opponent as much as you can while still not opening yourself up to counters. That is perfect play and that is why early attacks like 10 15 are not popular at the highest level.
you say the game would be different if bogus scouted it. how would it be different. What could bogus have done to counter this build?
one thing that DOES work, is ebay blocking the nexus spot. This relies on scouting really early, (aka as the rax goes down), and knowing exactly whats going on (usually when you see 2 early gates, your first thought isn't to go and block an expo)
Of course you can get more units by cutting probes than by not cutting probes. Dunno if this would compare favorably to a goon-before-second-gate build that also cuts probes at 19, however. I'll find out when I can.
On May 14 2011 04:17 Severedevil wrote: ...and then I felt dumb.
Of course you can get more units by cutting probes than by not cutting probes. Dunno if this would compare favorably to a goon-before-second-gate build that also cuts probes at 19, however. I'll find out when I can.
I've been practicing with that build last night. You need to cut around 10 seconds of probe. Depending on what you see, you can even get away with a probe at 19, and a dragoon at 20 instead of cutting probe a little longer with a dragoon at 19. You cut 15 seconds of probe max, but you get your nexus 40 seconds faster, and robotics faster as well, meaning u can make more probes faster, scout with obs faster, not to mention a better econ from 2 bases. It is definitely worth it. Because of the fast obs, when you see Terrans not putting the second fac in favor of armory first, you can get away with a third nexus with only 6 goons.
On May 14 2011 04:17 Severedevil wrote: ...and then I felt dumb.
Of course you can get more units by cutting probes than by not cutting probes. Dunno if this would compare favorably to a goon-before-second-gate build that also cuts probes at 19, however. I'll find out when I can.
I've been practicing with that build last night. You need to cut around 10 seconds of probe. Depending on what you see, you can even get away with a probe at 19, and a dragoon at 20 instead of cutting probe a little longer with a dragoon at 19. You cut 15 seconds of probe max, but you get your nexus 40 seconds faster, and robotics faster as well, meaning u can make more probes faster, scout with obs faster, not to mention a better econ from 2 bases. It is definitely worth it. Because of the fast obs, when you see Terrans not putting the second fac in favor of armory first, you can get away with a third nexus with only 6 goons.
So you're enjoying the build? Do you feel its superior to the classic 1 zealot 3 goon expo?
I just want to repeat that I do think this is a really interesting game, fully worthy of a thread. Games like this one push the whole sport forward and I love that. Kiante, nice idea with the ebay block, hadnt thought of that. Also, I think some sort of scv and offensive bunker would still be powerful and viable for Bogus if he had scouted first try. I think your counter to that would be the fact that P could cancel the nexus (something not possible with nexus first builds) and would already have range upgrade to deal with this. If so then I would agree to an extent, but scvs can repair and P would still be boxed in to his main only for a long time. A dangerous situation. See Movie vs Major on Icarus for an example of the kind of scv bunker timing Im suggesting Bogus could have done. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/47321_Major_vs_Movie/vod
Well, even if Bisu can defend all reactive timng attacks that T could throw at him, the problem of BBS or 2 rax (after supply) in a forward location is too much of an issue to ignore. I know you have addressed this already.
So again, all I can say now is what I said earlier, 'Lets see what Bisu does in the future' haha. I know Im very excited to find out. And even though I ramble, please understand, I just love discussing strategy!
On May 14 2011 04:17 Severedevil wrote: ...and then I felt dumb.
Of course you can get more units by cutting probes than by not cutting probes. Dunno if this would compare favorably to a goon-before-second-gate build that also cuts probes at 19, however. I'll find out when I can.
I've been practicing with that build last night. You need to cut around 10 seconds of probe. Depending on what you see, you can even get away with a probe at 19, and a dragoon at 20 instead of cutting probe a little longer with a dragoon at 19. You cut 15 seconds of probe max, but you get your nexus 40 seconds faster, and robotics faster as well, meaning u can make more probes faster, scout with obs faster, not to mention a better econ from 2 bases. It is definitely worth it. Because of the fast obs, when you see Terrans not putting the second fac in favor of armory first, you can get away with a third nexus with only 6 goons.
So you're enjoying the build? Do you feel its superior to the classic 1 zealot 3 goon expo?
It is a much better build than 1 zeal 3 goon expo. At C level atleast, most terrans cant respond well to this build. They end up making their CC in base when they see the 2nd gateway, and are quite a bit behind as a result.
Edit: Not sure about the response in the blue and green ranks in ICCUP, but I doubt any C+ can come up with a proper response to punish the 40 second earlier nexus.
Actually the game in the OP shows how dangerous this build is vs all in..if bogus didn't mis micro his first marine/tank group, while he was dropping vul in the main he could have setup a good position in bisu's nat, the commentators note this as well. Obviously we won't know whether it would have worked or not but I do believe this is worth noting, especially because opening can easily transition into CC (flux of early gas but can be regulated by adjusting scv count on refinery).
On May 14 2011 11:05 CaffeineFree-_- wrote: Actually the game in the OP shows how dangerous this build is vs all in..if bogus didn't mis micro his first marine/tank group, while he was dropping vul in the main he could have setup a good position in bisu's nat, the commentators note this as well. Obviously we won't know whether it would have worked or not but I do believe this is worth noting, especially because opening can easily transition into CC (flux of early gas but can be regulated by adjusting scv count on refinery).
it would be even worse with a regular 3 goon expand
On May 14 2011 04:17 Severedevil wrote: ...and then I felt dumb.
Of course you can get more units by cutting probes than by not cutting probes. Dunno if this would compare favorably to a goon-before-second-gate build that also cuts probes at 19, however. I'll find out when I can.
I've been practicing with that build last night. You need to cut around 10 seconds of probe. Depending on what you see, you can even get away with a probe at 19, and a dragoon at 20 instead of cutting probe a little longer with a dragoon at 19. You cut 15 seconds of probe max, but you get your nexus 40 seconds faster, and robotics faster as well, meaning u can make more probes faster, scout with obs faster, not to mention a better econ from 2 bases. It is definitely worth it. Because of the fast obs, when you see Terrans not putting the second fac in favor of armory first, you can get away with a third nexus with only 6 goons.
So you're enjoying the build? Do you feel its superior to the classic 1 zealot 3 goon expo?
It is a much better build than 1 zeal 3 goon expo. At C level atleast, most terrans cant respond well to this build. They end up making their CC in base when they see the 2nd gateway, and are quite a bit behind as a result.
Edit: Not sure about the response in the blue and green ranks in ICCUP, but I doubt any C+ can come up with a proper response to punish the 40 second earlier nexus.
On May 12 2011 12:28 tryummm wrote: 2 Factory is pretty easy to stop with 1 gate expansion build, you just need good Dragoon control and building placement. If stopped without a lot of damage, the Terran loses the game pretty easily. Moreover, the initial Zealot and/or Probe can generally scout whether or not a 2 Factory is coming. If not initially, if becomes evident since the Terran isn't making a Command Center that some sort of aggression is coming.
Really? I thought the only build 2 fac was good against was a 1 gate FE. Anyways this is a great build, thanks for taking the time to share it!
So anyways i altered the BO in the opening post a little after doing some more testing to include the probe cutting period.
Now i'm thinking of putting this into liquipedia, so i figured i'd get some community input here. so, if you have ideas for these sections, please share!
Counter to Countered by Strong maps Weak maps Replays (if you have any where you think you played the game out well)
I think i can write the rest out (though i'll appreciate edits when it comes to transitions). But yeah, if anyone wants to help out could you try and throw out some ideas for the underlined points there? Please include reasons ^_^
Isn't it a counter to 1 rax expand, assuming it gets scouted? They see 2 gates quickly, making it hard to decide if you are expanding or putting on pressure?
The late goons give him more time to get tank with siege. Also, the nexus is obtained quite early even before the first goon is out. A scouting SCV will be able to see all of this.
this build dies to 2 factory contain. T pushes out with marines vulture and tanks and plant down mines outside of your base while researching siege mode. Obs come out after siege, and T and just build supply depots and turrents and bunkers outside of your base. super hard to break out.
Yes that is correct. But the main thing is getting to that contain. By the time you get 3 tanks out, he will have around 7 goons out, which is more than enough to completely crush your push.
Since you are prioritizing siege before your expansion, losing the push will make you dead if you cannot do a contain.
Defending a 2 fac should be easier than it is with a regular 1 gate expand because you're getting an extra goon out if they start the push with 1 tank. 2 fac vs this build will be hard, but its not unwinnable. the trick is catching the push at the terran base and forcing mines/killing marines/vultures before they get to your base while prioritising a shuttle out to bomb the tanks if they get sieged up
i've been using it in pretty much every PVT i've played since i made this thread. The only times i haven't are when i've forgotten my first pylon and rage 12 nex'd lolololol
On May 20 2011 03:26 APurpleCow wrote: Looks like a good build, but it seems to me like it's inferior to 12 nex against everything but proxy rax and BBS.
On May 20 2011 03:26 APurpleCow wrote: Looks like a good build, but it seems to me like it's inferior to 12 nex against everything but proxy rax and BBS.
Am I wrong here?
Theres no real risk of getting bunker rushed. When you 12 nex, a terran who scouts you before your gateway finishes has the options to simply box 8 scv's and kill your nexus, and if they know what they're doing, you cant really stop it. Sure, you can sac the nexus and try and play it out, but if they've expanded while doing it, dont sac their scv's, you end up equal or behind. This build just puts you ahead, thats the advantage. Also getting range out super fast lets u hold rushes and defuse mines. range on a 12 nex is super late
On May 21 2011 13:39 Taekwon wrote: this build could theoretically work in PvP...
no. they make a zealot they send it to your base, you HAVE to make a goon/zealot to stop it. hence you deviate from the build, making the build useless.
It's so boring that every time a SKT player does something unusual we have instant reaction zomgOovsogenius. It's already doubtful that players really invent the builds they do; and Oov doesn't even play Protoss.
On May 21 2011 17:40 Biff The Understudy wrote: Why Oov?
It's so boring that every time a SKT player does something unusual we have instant reaction zomgOovsogenius. It's already doubtful that players really invent the builds they do; and Oov doesn't even play Protoss.
Someone doesn't read interviews. i even mentioned it in the OP
Q: Any last words you want to say? A: I used a special build in today’s ace match, and it was a build created by Coach (T)iloveoov. It had been never used in a broadcasted match before.
against a 4-6 factory, can the third base to gateway timing be slimmed down in time for the push along with zealot speed?
assuming he opens siege expand, it is possible to get the third nexus before the robotics. i was wondering if you add in 4-5 gates just as your nexus is 75% complete and your citadel after the gateways, if this could stomp a 6 factory push.
since the natural econ is up quite early, constant goons can be made through the initial 2 gates during the duration of the 3rd nexus building time and halted at around 50% for gateways to be made along with the citadel.
1rax cc economic style beats this easily p has to cut probes to get his units out, t doesn't, also less agression than regular 1gate fe because goons arive later at your bunker and siege will finish soon p can't deny your scout so you won't need turrets, get your 3rd base early, don't attack with your units just defend
I wouldn't say it beats it. Your nexus gets down fairly quickly, and you still have a chance to snipe a tank if they've over agressive with it (hold back 2 goons, they come to hit 2 goons 2 with their tank, sprint with 4 goons and attempt to kill). You could even rush to DT tech as soon as their scv dies in your base to take advantage of a terran who's skimping on detection, or attempt a 2 base goon/shuttle push to break a terran going too hard for a third. saying this build straight up is beaten by a 1 rax cc is just :S. by the same logic 1 rax cc also beats 1 gate 3 goon FE, which is what 90% of pro games are
i didnt say to skip on detection just on ebay/turrets get comsat with armory anyway i said you dont need to be agressive with your units, so you cant snipe a tank except when t tries to get to his 3rd
1gate fe denies t scout much earlier so you have to get turrets to be safe against dt
and how will you scout a fast 3rd with 6minutes and something obs?
this build gets 4 goons out faster than 1 gate fe. also, if you didn't know about this build as t, and you saw 2 gate in protoss base, wouldn't you build more marines in fear of aggression?
i have no doubt that anyone will lose to this build who doens't know about it but once you know how it works, it isn't that fearsome anymore
i don't think this build is bad, because it forces the terran into a macro game even if he doesn't want it, but 1gate fe into arbiters does the same thing if not better once the novelity of the build has vanished
This build gets a faster nexus with more goons. if you dont get bunker rushed and completely screw it up, and you hold a 2 fac with good micro that would've got scouted by initial zealot harass (aka vs a bad terran) then i dont see how 1 gate is better...
Against Rax CC having earlier goons isn't useful anyway, since you can't start hammering away at the bunker until you have range, so this build is actually better that 1gate fe.
well i would say this build is something flash would came up if he was playin protoss. very good one for todays games. it offers you many many different options to transition into very easily also if terran do something.
Kiante still using this build? How are you getting on with it?
I only recently watched a game between Best and Classic March 2011 on Circuit Breakers where Best uses this build. It is actually an earlier example of it strangely, despite the interview. So hope this is considered a worthwhile bump. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/60935_BeSt_vs_Classic/vod
Also I must apologise for my earlier posts in this thread.
Nice bump! I'll be giving this a try since FD has been giving me trouble since my goon micro is below average. My only real negative thought is that your first goon is so late the Terran will have unopposed scouting of everything you are doing. I guess they can't really kill you with that information, but they can at least delay ebay which opens up really strong Fac-CC-Fac and 3Fac timings if they scout your 3rd. It will be fun to play around with this on both sides! (I play TvP and PvT)
your micro is going to have to be really good if you use this build. even with faster range, you are going to have to micro like a god to hold off a strong fd. even with the faster second gate, it does not kick in timely for his push so you will need to micro very carefully to not let the tank get any shots off.
But I think with this build you're better equipped to deal with (non-BBS) bunker rushes/early vultures. 12nex has trouble with these.
I could also see this being stronger vs a 1rax CC. the early 4 goons with range means you can pressure their bunker hard very quickly, while still having a decent economy to follow up with.
I dont know of it being used apart from that, I think Bisu might have used it again like once though.
The build sort of evolved into the 1 goon expo http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/417964-pvt-opening-1-goon-range-nexus The t1 protosses in particular would get a second gate after the nexus, which reflects the build in this thread. Sun used that alot on Beltway etc. Shuttle for example was also quick to adopt this style and use it quite often; he did so on new empire of the sun quite alot etc. Soon after, other protoss players began favouring to stay on 1 gate and get robo and observatory while making goons out of the single gateway. I would say the STX protosses were probably the main guys who pushed this forward. By the later part of the 2012 season even the t1 protoss players were favouring to stay on 1 gate and get robo and observatory while making goons out of the single gateway. Thats why I focused on the later style in the 1 goon expo thread.
EPT
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