So i read the interview where bisu said he showed a new PVT build that hadn't been played on air before, so i was intrigued to go and watch the vod again. I remember thinking it was a curious build while it was being played. After watching the vod i've gone and played out the typical 1 gate FE and this new build vs an AI and i'll share my results and thoughts as to timing etc.
Build orders
Normal 1 gate FE (as is played in most pvt's on korean television these days. Note this is slightly different to the liquipedia version).
8 pylon 10 gate 11/12 gas 13 core 14 zealot 14 pylon 18 goon 21 range (pull 1 probe off gas here) 22 pylon 22 goon 27 goon 30 nexus (probe back on gas) 31 pylon
Range finishes at 4:45 Nexus finishes at 5:30 3 goons at 4:27 2nd gate finishes at 5:33
Now lets put that on ice for a bit and look at the build bisu used vs bogus yesterday (on icarus in case you're looking for the vod).
I watched it a couple of times and tried to replicate the build order, this is what i ended up with
8 pylon 10 gate 12 gas 13 core 15 pylon 17 range (pull probe from gas) 17 gate 20 nexus (cut probes to get the two goons and pylon out) 20 goon 22 goon 24 pylon (put probe back on gas) 25 2 more goons 31 robo
from here you need to respond to what the terran is doing, by either cutting goons and grabbing a fast third or teching to arbiters or defending an early rush.
2nd gate finishes at 3:35 range finishes at 4:23 nexus finishes at 4:50 4 goons at 4:53
oh heres the vod(courtesy of harem) Analysis So the first thing to think about is that if you get BBS'd, you're going to have a hard time, which means that maybe scouting the center of the map first would be advisable. If you do get caught off guard by proxy marines you're pretty much straight up dead unless you have gosu probe micro because you aren't making units for the first few minutes of the game lol.
Secondly you get a much faster range and more goons out faster (in the first build the fourth goon doesn't get out until after the 5:30 mark). Not to mention your second gate finishes so much earlier giving you much more potential production if there is cheese coming. One of the big weaknesses of a 1 gate FE is a 2 fac or FD. I know i have alot of trouble against these builds with a 1 gate FE as the push usually starts coming out as your three goons arrive at their base and range is almost done. With this build, while you only have 2 goons at their base, you get range done faster, allowing you to soften up the marines of an FD before pulling back to your reinforcement goons. I would say that looking at bisu's play against bogus's strong FD, that this build is designed to completely destroy FD's. Your goon count is simply better, your economy faster. i actually got my robo up faster in the second build than i did in the first.
Now lets look at the other major difference, the nexus. You literally get a nexus 40 seconds faster, have more units at an important (stop an FD) timing. Holy shit. If the terran is doing a 1 rax FE build, your nexus starts around the same time as their cc, equalizing their economic advantage to an extent.
I would LOVE to see how this goes against 2 fac varieties, and i guess i will and i'm sure i'll be trying this out on iccup.
I'd love to hear peoples thoughts on this build. Did i get it right (my version could be wrong) so please submit corrections and i'll try to keep this up to date and maybe pretty it up a bit or add it to liquipedia if people think its viable.
2 Factory is pretty easy to stop with 1 gate expansion build, you just need good Dragoon control and building placement. If stopped without a lot of damage, the Terran loses the game pretty easily. Moreover, the initial Zealot and/or Probe can generally scout whether or not a 2 Factory is coming. If not initially, if becomes evident since the Terran isn't making a Command Center that some sort of aggression is coming.
If the terran wants to deny you information, they will. Theres no real way to pre-scout a 2 fac if the terran doesn't want you too. As for stopping 2 fac with 1 gate fe...well you need to have amazing micro and a bit of luck, because a regular 2 fac will at LEAST kill the expo of a 1 gate FE toss, in the long run losing you the game (see best vs reality if you want proof)
I am impressed! This is quite smart. Delay the goon for an earlier goon range and make up for goon count with an earlier second gateway.
I feel the earlier goon range is such a good counter to the 1 rax FE. He will need to spend resources on repairing the bunker much earlier, which is at a critical point before the nat CC is up. This means he is going to lose even more minerals because the timing that a tank can be up is still the same.
This is weak vs a 1 rax CC timing push. Usually with a 1 gate nexus you will have 2 goons shooting at the bunker at ~4:30. Now, you'll have 2 goons shooting at ~5:00. They can shoot for only 20 seconds before siege is done. Also, w/o early dragoons to deny scouting, there is no need for T to build engineering bay/turrets. So T's early game is much smoother.
For the sake of argument, let's say you can continuously produce goons out of those 2 gates, get a robo, AND a 3rd nexus (a very generous assumption). You'll have 4 goons at 5:00, 8 at 6:00, and 10 at 7:00 + a shuttle. In Flash vs Free on Grand Line, Flash gets pressured early game (which this build can't), puts down an engineering bay (which this build won't force), and STILL is able to get 7 marines and 6 tanks at 7:00. I'd say 7 marines + 6 tanks + scvs > 10 goons + a shuttle.
I still like this P build though, but I'm just pointing out its one huge weakness.
On May 12 2011 12:28 tryummm wrote: 2 Factory is pretty easy to stop with 1 gate expansion build, you just need good Dragoon control and building placement. If stopped without a lot of damage, the Terran loses the game pretty easily. Moreover, the initial Zealot and/or Probe can generally scout whether or not a 2 Factory is coming. If not initially, if becomes evident since the Terran isn't making a Command Center that some sort of aggression is coming.
It's hard of hard to tell what's coming when they've denied or chased your probe out with a marine and then walled off, no real way to tell if he has a second factory until he actually moves out. You can't always count on looking for the CC either as they can build it in the main and float it out.
I'm really liking the timings of this build though, good work Kiante
If there is a tank timing push coming, and they've skipped turrets you'll have obs in their base and scout it before you drop your third (if you dont you're just greedy). From there you can just drop a few more gates, delay the push a little and be safe. Shuttles are trey strong when it comes to pushes with low vulture counts
i believe infernal used to do this, or something very similar to it. he got 1 dragoon, nexus, range, 2nd gateway iirc.
anyway both versions are weak to a 5marine+vulture+scv attack, like those commonly used against 12nexus. In this case, the protoss has the option of canceling his nexus though..possibly holding his ramp and being able to counter attack before siege or mines...
this could have some potential specially on 2player maps, to remove the threat of BBS and 1rax cc.
ill probably try it out in the next few days
edit: also 10 dragoons beats 6 tanks and 7 marines with scvs..u just one shot every tank, then clean up the marines
On May 12 2011 12:59 FyRe_DragOn wrote: i believe infernal used to do this, or something very similar to it. he got 1 dragoon, nexus, range, 2nd gateway iirc.
anyway both versions are weak to a 5marine+vulture+scv attack, like those commonly used against 12nexus. In this case, the protoss has the option of canceling his nexus though..possibly holding his ramp and being able to counter attack before siege or mines...
this could have some potential specially on 2player maps, to remove the threat of BBS
ill probably try it out in the next few days
you get the gates up so fast. you'll have 2 goons out by the time this push comes to your base. Pull a couple of probes and you're safe, sure you might lose a probe or two but its not the end of the world, then you get 2 more goons popping out and you can immediately counter while the terran is building their machine shop/making tank and potentially do more damage
On May 12 2011 12:59 FyRe_DragOn wrote: i believe infernal used to do this, or something very similar to it. he got 1 dragoon, nexus, range, 2nd gateway iirc.
anyway both versions are weak to a 5marine+vulture+scv attack, like those commonly used against 12nexus. In this case, the protoss has the option of canceling his nexus though..possibly holding his ramp and being able to counter attack before siege or mines...
this could have some potential specially on 2player maps, to remove the threat of BBS
ill probably try it out in the next few days
you get the gates up so fast. you'll have 2 goons out by the time this push comes to your base. Pull a couple of probes and you're safe, sure you might lose a probe or two but its not the end of the world, then you get 2 more goons popping out and you can immediately counter while the terran is building their machine shop/making tank and potentially do more damage
i dont think this would work with rangeless dragoons..they r pretty bad. does range finish in time? i think it would come when your 2nd dragoon had just popped, and range not done yet, but not sure..
But if you look at that Bisu Bogus VOD you'll notice that his observer pops at 6:30. By the time it gets to T's base at 7:00, the tank push is already moving out. Cutting goons temporarily for a faster observer will make your goon count lower.
Also, vs a 1 rax CC, the more you delay your third, the larger T's window gets. Any competent T will know not to push out till he knows you've probably expanded. And the longer you stay on two bases, the more powerful T's two bases get.
EPT
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