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On May 13 2011 14:36 henzi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 13:06 JMave wrote:On May 13 2011 12:14 Kiante wrote:On May 13 2011 08:31 JMave wrote:
Ya man. I think this build dies to BBS. please read the OP. I recommend scouting for proxies and not doing this if you see a BBS I have read the OP. Your assumption is based on proxy BBS. Even if he decides to go for BBS in his own base, you are still going to die if you do this build because of how late your units arrive. I feel that the proxy is useful for a double rax rush but not needed. The only real significance is proxy off 1 rax because common logic is that your marine count is double with BBS than with a single proxy rax. an in base BBS makes no sense since the distance is so long for marine follow ups, even if you take down the nexus, the protoss has range done and two gates, while you have two barracks and a bunker. I think this build has some flexibility, especially for in base BBS that gets scouted, cutting probes for that first dragoon, if scouting goes well
I'm not really sure but you might be talking about something against a 12 nexus or something because there would be no way his nat nexus would be up by the time you attack with BBS. For BBS, your attack is way before range is complete and the completion of a second gateway wouldn't be up unless he had gone for a 10/15 gate.
EDIT: But I don't know. Since the success of BBS against a 1 gate FE is dependent on the first goon, the delay of the first goon for range in this build optimizes the BBS timing a lot more. One thing is for sure, you cannot continue with this build if you scout a BBS.
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It's killing me that I don't have a mouse right now, to test whether Range-Gate-Nexus actually has any advantages over Range-Goon-Nexus.
It feels wrong that you could increase your dragoon count by cutting dragoons to build an earlier gateway. It feels pointless to have dragoon range before your first dragoon could reach the opponent's base (according to the recorded timings). It feels weak to allow the opponent such extensive scouting of your base. (Terran that knows he doesn't need missile turrets? Very hard to play against.)
Would someone please test this build order against a comparable build that switches the positions of the first dragoon and the second gateway? (Note - you will want 11 gas, not 12 gas, since you're not scouting early (so 11 gas does not inflict a probe cut) and you need a fully 200 gas.)
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On May 13 2011 15:18 JMave wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 14:36 henzi wrote:On May 13 2011 13:06 JMave wrote:On May 13 2011 12:14 Kiante wrote:On May 13 2011 08:31 JMave wrote:
Ya man. I think this build dies to BBS. please read the OP. I recommend scouting for proxies and not doing this if you see a BBS I have read the OP. Your assumption is based on proxy BBS. Even if he decides to go for BBS in his own base, you are still going to die if you do this build because of how late your units arrive. I feel that the proxy is useful for a double rax rush but not needed. The only real significance is proxy off 1 rax because common logic is that your marine count is double with BBS than with a single proxy rax. an in base BBS makes no sense since the distance is so long for marine follow ups, even if you take down the nexus, the protoss has range done and two gates, while you have two barracks and a bunker. I think this build has some flexibility, especially for in base BBS that gets scouted, cutting probes for that first dragoon, if scouting goes well I'm not really sure but you might be talking about something against a 12 nexus or something because there would be no way his nat nexus would be up by the time you attack with BBS. For BBS, your attack is way before range is complete and the completion of a second gateway wouldn't be up unless he had gone for a 10/15 gate. EDIT: But I don't know. Since the success of BBS against a 1 gate FE is dependent on the first goon, the delay of the first goon for range in this build optimizes the BBS timing a lot more. One thing is for sure, you cannot continue with this build if you scout a BBS.
yes, and this is noted in the OP. Whats the problem?
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yeah the opening is very greedy but it is also safe. you need to scout whole time the terrans marine count tho. aslong as you are scouting, you should be fine against any earlier agression.
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On May 13 2011 16:32 Kiante wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 15:18 JMave wrote:On May 13 2011 14:36 henzi wrote:On May 13 2011 13:06 JMave wrote:On May 13 2011 12:14 Kiante wrote:On May 13 2011 08:31 JMave wrote:
Ya man. I think this build dies to BBS. please read the OP. I recommend scouting for proxies and not doing this if you see a BBS I have read the OP. Your assumption is based on proxy BBS. Even if he decides to go for BBS in his own base, you are still going to die if you do this build because of how late your units arrive. I feel that the proxy is useful for a double rax rush but not needed. The only real significance is proxy off 1 rax because common logic is that your marine count is double with BBS than with a single proxy rax. an in base BBS makes no sense since the distance is so long for marine follow ups, even if you take down the nexus, the protoss has range done and two gates, while you have two barracks and a bunker. I think this build has some flexibility, especially for in base BBS that gets scouted, cutting probes for that first dragoon, if scouting goes well I'm not really sure but you might be talking about something against a 12 nexus or something because there would be no way his nat nexus would be up by the time you attack with BBS. For BBS, your attack is way before range is complete and the completion of a second gateway wouldn't be up unless he had gone for a 10/15 gate. EDIT: But I don't know. Since the success of BBS against a 1 gate FE is dependent on the first goon, the delay of the first goon for range in this build optimizes the BBS timing a lot more. One thing is for sure, you cannot continue with this build if you scout a BBS. yes, and this is noted in the OP. Whats the problem?
The problem is scouting the BBS in time. Since you are rushing the nexus and the second gateway in time for goon influx, you will not be able to scout as early as you would, probably as late as after you plant down the second gateway.
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Whats stopping you from scouting early? if its a choice between cutting a probe or two to get goons out and not dying to BBS, i'll choose scouting
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Well, if you are going to follow Bisu's exact build, then that is something you should question as well.
If it is a significant thing to note that you should remove one probe from gas after starting range, this should mean that the difference in scouting timing will also make a significant difference and should be questioned just as much.
The reason why I feel what you said doesn't really make sense to me is because it doesn't keep in flow with the whole intention of the build. If you have to cut one probe or two to get goons out earlier and to scout earlier, then why go this build in the first place? Going for a standard 10 gate 10 scout and 13 core is much better because it serves its purpose.
EDIT: But ya, lol. I made a complete fool of myself with the in base BBS. ^^
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the scouting timings are to taste, some people scout after core, some scout after gate, etc etc. its really not a big deal. you cut the probe off gas because otherwise you end up with a gas excess. more minerals are better but not vital. its the same any any other build. The big concepts to take away are getting range but not units before you drop your expo and what that means in terms of how you respond to different builds (aka if you 12 nex and get bbs'd, you die. if u do this build, get bbs'd, you see it, and diverege by building units. hence making it safer than a 12 nex by far)
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On May 13 2011 17:51 Kiante wrote:
the scouting timings are to taste, some people scout after core, some scout after gate, etc etc. its really not a big deal. you cut the probe off gas because otherwise you end up with a gas excess. more minerals are better but not vital. its the same any any other build. The big concepts to take away are getting range but not units before you drop your expo and what that means in terms of how you respond to different builds (aka if you 12 nex and get bbs'd, you die. if u do this build, get bbs'd, you see it, and diverege by building units. hence making it safer than a 12 nex by far)
Okay. That makes sense. Thanks 
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Really nice builds.
Glad to see pvt builds still evolving.
My guess though is that it is not going to be very safe VS 2 fact.
Will try it to see.....
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Werra and JMave I agree. I also agree with Pyrogenetix who says the build is very interesting. It really is interesting.
Severedevil, consider the zerg race. They build drones and hatcheries and tech for as long as possible then switch over to making an army for as long as is necessary before going back to improving economy, infrastructure and more tech.
This concept is exactly the same for Terran and Protoss. If you can get away with building 3 command centres before a barracks and then 20 factories before a single army unit you would but maps dont allow this. Do you see what Im saying? I hope that helps you.
Hafnium, I disagree. I believe the build would be exceptionally good at defending 2 factory timing attacks. And I think Bisu actually anticipated Bogus was a high contender to do a 2 fac and later drop to exploit the ledge due to his style.
I believe he read Bogus and risked it all to win in this game. Bisu essentially didnt scout at all. Bisu made the game a 50/50 game. He absolutely cheesed. A protoss who doesnt scout early and doesnt make a zealot is cheesing. Bisu is guilty already but then doesnt make a goon either. Absolutely 100% cheese. My definition of cheese is taking a risk that means you would guaranteed lose the game if the opponent does something. You gamble that he doesnt do this thing. If he doesnt, it will give you a very powerful timing attack later in the game and that is the attraction.
If Bogus had scouted 12 o clock first it would have been a different game. Instead, Bogus scouts late and his own cheese build (1 fac drop) was already beaten.
If Bogus had scouted first try, it would have been interesting to see who won. If Bisu had scouted earlier I would be very excited. Lets see what Bisu does on the future but I dont think this build has a future personally.
PS Rhaegar99, 10 15 gate is map dependant as are all builds. Think about Medusas architecture. It is rampless and quite wide aswell. Early timing attacks are therefore stronger than on other maps. However, the earlier your timing attack is, the less chances you have given yourself to pull ahead previously with small details, and therefore the less likely you are to suceed. This is why the later your timing attack is, the better. The best player never actually attacks fully, they just threaten before cementing the lead further with more upgrades, economy and infrastructure. But if you see an opportunity, by all means punish the opponent as much as you can while still not opening yourself up to counters. That is perfect play and that is why early attacks like 10 15 are not popular at the highest level.
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On May 13 2011 15:48 Severedevil wrote:
It's killing me that I don't have a mouse right now, to test whether Range-Gate-Nexus actually has any advantages over Range-Goon-Nexus.
It feels wrong that you could increase your dragoon count by cutting dragoons to build an earlier gateway. It feels pointless to have dragoon range before your first dragoon could reach the opponent's base (according to the recorded timings). It feels weak to allow the opponent such extensive scouting of your base. (Terran that knows he doesn't need missile turrets? Very hard to play against.)
Would someone please test this build order against a comparable build that switches the positions of the first dragoon and the second gateway? (Note - you will want 11 gas, not 12 gas, since you're not scouting early (so 11 gas does not inflict a probe cut) and you need a fully 200 gas.)
It feels wrong, but its not. When a 2 Fac/FD of some sort hits a Protoss that just 1 gate FEed, it hits at a timing that either the Protoss is stopping goons slightly to get that nexus (no 2nd gateway), OR the nexus is almost complete (I think, if done properly), but the Protoss hadn't had time to gain the econ benefits to add more gates and produce more goons.
In this case, the nexus is already done at the FD timing, while the Protoss is making dragoons out of both gates. Like Kiate said, in that critical FD timing, Protoss has 4 ranged goons instead of 3 rangeless goon and a zealot to hold off the FD. The range is to stop the FD timing, not for your first goon to harass, because by the time your goon makes it to their base, their tank will prolly be out any second. lol
As for the no missile turret thing. I find that building a turret ring isn't too bad. Sure it wastes resource, but it prevents obs scouting puts a lot more pressure mentality wise on the Protoss. Plus, you have to sac an obs in hopes of scouting the Terran base.
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On May 13 2011 22:51 Miwyfe wrote:
Werra and JMave I agree. I also agree with Pyrogenetix who says the build is very interesting. It really is interesting.
Severedevil, consider the zerg race. They build drones and hatcheries and tech for as long as possible then switch over to making an army for as long as is necessary before going back to improving economy, infrastructure and more tech.
This concept is exactly the same for Terran and Protoss. If you can get away with building 3 command centres before a barracks and then 20 factories before a single army unit you would but maps dont allow this. Do you see what Im saying? I hope that helps you.
Hafnium, I disagree. I believe the build would be exceptionally good at defending 2 factory timing attacks. And I think Bisu actually anticipated Bogus was a high contender to do a 2 fac and later drop to exploit the ledge due to his style.
I believe he read Bogus and risked it all to win in this game. Bisu essentially didnt scout at all. Bisu made the game a 50/50 game. He absolutely cheesed. A protoss who doesnt scout early and doesnt make a zealot is cheesing. Bisu is guilty already but then doesnt make a goon either. Absolutely 100% cheese. My definition of cheese is taking a risk that means you would guaranteed lose the game if the opponent does something. You gamble that he doesnt do this thing. If he doesnt, it will give you a very powerful timing attack later in the game and that is the attraction.
If Bogus had scouted 12 o clock first it would have been a different game. Instead, Bogus scouts late and his own cheese build (1 fac drop) was already beaten.
If Bogus had scouted first try, it would have been interesting to see who won. If Bisu had scouted earlier I would be very excited. Lets see what Bisu does on the future but I dont think this build has a future personally.
PS Rhaegar99, 10 15 gate is map dependant as are all builds. Think about Medusas architecture. It is rampless and quite wide aswell. Early timing attacks are therefore stronger than on other maps. However, the earlier your timing attack is, the less chances you have given yourself to pull ahead previously with small details, and therefore the less likely you are to suceed. This is why the later your timing attack is, the better. The best player never actually attacks fully, they just threaten before cementing the lead further with more upgrades, economy and infrastructure. But if you see an opportunity, by all means punish the opponent as much as you can while still not opening yourself up to counters. That is perfect play and that is why early attacks like 10 15 are not popular at the highest level.
you say the game would be different if bogus scouted it. how would it be different. What could bogus have done to counter this build?
one thing that DOES work, is ebay blocking the nexus spot. This relies on scouting really early, (aka as the rax goes down), and knowing exactly whats going on (usually when you see 2 early gates, your first thought isn't to go and block an expo)
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...and then I felt dumb.
Of course you can get more units by cutting probes than by not cutting probes. Dunno if this would compare favorably to a goon-before-second-gate build that also cuts probes at 19, however. I'll find out when I can.
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On May 14 2011 04:17 Severedevil wrote:
...and then I felt dumb.
Of course you can get more units by cutting probes than by not cutting probes. Dunno if this would compare favorably to a goon-before-second-gate build that also cuts probes at 19, however. I'll find out when I can.
I've been practicing with that build last night. You need to cut around 10 seconds of probe. Depending on what you see, you can even get away with a probe at 19, and a dragoon at 20 instead of cutting probe a little longer with a dragoon at 19. You cut 15 seconds of probe max, but you get your nexus 40 seconds faster, and robotics faster as well, meaning u can make more probes faster, scout with obs faster, not to mention a better econ from 2 bases. It is definitely worth it. Because of the fast obs, when you see Terrans not putting the second fac in favor of armory first, you can get away with a third nexus with only 6 goons.
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On May 14 2011 04:28 renzy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 04:17 Severedevil wrote:
...and then I felt dumb.
Of course you can get more units by cutting probes than by not cutting probes. Dunno if this would compare favorably to a goon-before-second-gate build that also cuts probes at 19, however. I'll find out when I can. I've been practicing with that build last night. You need to cut around 10 seconds of probe. Depending on what you see, you can even get away with a probe at 19, and a dragoon at 20 instead of cutting probe a little longer with a dragoon at 19. You cut 15 seconds of probe max, but you get your nexus 40 seconds faster, and robotics faster as well, meaning u can make more probes faster, scout with obs faster, not to mention a better econ from 2 bases. It is definitely worth it. Because of the fast obs, when you see Terrans not putting the second fac in favor of armory first, you can get away with a third nexus with only 6 goons.
So you're enjoying the build? Do you feel its superior to the classic 1 zealot 3 goon expo?
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I just want to repeat that I do think this is a really interesting game, fully worthy of a thread. Games like this one push the whole sport forward and I love that.
Kiante, nice idea with the ebay block, hadnt thought of that. Also, I think some sort of scv and offensive bunker would still be powerful and viable for Bogus if he had scouted first try. I think your counter to that would be the fact that P could cancel the nexus (something not possible with nexus first builds) and would already have range upgrade to deal with this. If so then I would agree to an extent, but scvs can repair and P would still be boxed in to his main only for a long time. A dangerous situation.
See Movie vs Major on Icarus for an example of the kind of scv bunker timing Im suggesting Bogus could have done.
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/47321_Major_vs_Movie/vod
Well, even if Bisu can defend all reactive timng attacks that T could throw at him, the problem of BBS or 2 rax (after supply) in a forward location is too much of an issue to ignore. I know you have addressed this already.
So again, all I can say now is what I said earlier, 'Lets see what Bisu does in the future' haha. I know Im very excited to find out. And even though I ramble, please understand, I just love discussing strategy!
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On May 14 2011 05:48 Kiante wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 04:28 renzy wrote:On May 14 2011 04:17 Severedevil wrote:
...and then I felt dumb.
Of course you can get more units by cutting probes than by not cutting probes. Dunno if this would compare favorably to a goon-before-second-gate build that also cuts probes at 19, however. I'll find out when I can. I've been practicing with that build last night. You need to cut around 10 seconds of probe. Depending on what you see, you can even get away with a probe at 19, and a dragoon at 20 instead of cutting probe a little longer with a dragoon at 19. You cut 15 seconds of probe max, but you get your nexus 40 seconds faster, and robotics faster as well, meaning u can make more probes faster, scout with obs faster, not to mention a better econ from 2 bases. It is definitely worth it. Because of the fast obs, when you see Terrans not putting the second fac in favor of armory first, you can get away with a third nexus with only 6 goons. So you're enjoying the build? Do you feel its superior to the classic 1 zealot 3 goon expo?
It is a much better build than 1 zeal 3 goon expo. At C level atleast, most terrans cant respond well to this build. They end up making their CC in base when they see the 2nd gateway, and are quite a bit behind as a result.
Edit: Not sure about the response in the blue and green ranks in ICCUP, but I doubt any C+ can come up with a proper response to punish the 40 second earlier nexus.
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Actually the game in the OP shows how dangerous this build is vs all in..if bogus didn't mis micro his first marine/tank group, while he was dropping vul in the main he could have setup a good position in bisu's nat, the commentators note this as well. Obviously we won't know whether it would have worked or not but I do believe this is worth noting, especially because opening can easily transition into CC (flux of early gas but can be regulated by adjusting scv count on refinery).
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On May 14 2011 11:05 CaffeineFree-_- wrote:
Actually the game in the OP shows how dangerous this build is vs all in..if bogus didn't mis micro his first marine/tank group, while he was dropping vul in the main he could have setup a good position in bisu's nat, the commentators note this as well. Obviously we won't know whether it would have worked or not but I do believe this is worth noting, especially because opening can easily transition into CC (flux of early gas but can be regulated by adjusting scv count on refinery).
it would be even worse with a regular 3 goon expand
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EPT
