On May 12 2011 13:08 aegisabcde wrote: But if you look at that Bisu Bogus VOD you'll notice that his observer pops at 6:30. By the time it gets to T's base at 7:00, the tank push is already moving out. Cutting goons temporarily for a faster observer will make your goon count lower.
Also, vs a 1 rax CC, the more you delay your third, the larger T's window gets. Any competent T will know not to push out till he knows you've probably expanded. And the longer you stay on two bases, the more powerful T's two bases get.
or you go for a 2 base arbiter and totally lockdown the game there.
On May 12 2011 13:08 aegisabcde wrote: But if you look at that Bisu Bogus VOD you'll notice that his observer pops at 6:30. By the time it gets to T's base at 7:00, the tank push is already moving out. Cutting goons temporarily for a faster observer will make your goon count lower.
Also, vs a 1 rax CC, the more you delay your third, the larger T's window gets. Any competent T will know not to push out till he knows you've probably expanded. And the longer you stay on two bases, the more powerful T's two bases get.
or you go for a 2 base arbiter and totally lockdown the game there.
That's what I would do if I were doing this build vs a 1 rax CC.
reyis has a good point. if you do see a 1 rax FE you could skip detection entirely, get some dt's out and go 4 gate 2 base arbiter. You use dt's to waste scans while you try and get an arbiter out.
I think that one of the keys of this build is the fact that you get super super late scouting - you lose many of the advantages that this build has if you scout before about 20 supply.
i scouted after core in my test run and still hit those timings. You need to scout before the nexus goes down or you could insta-lose to an un-scouted bbs, hence why i recommended proxy searching, one of this BO's main weaknesses.
On May 12 2011 13:20 Kiante wrote: What happens if you scout them last and you've already dropped your second gateway?
like i said earlier, i think this build would be strong on 2player maps. I probably wouldnt use it on 4player but i havent tested it out at all yet either
On May 12 2011 12:36 aegisabcde wrote: This is weak vs a 1 rax CC timing push. Usually with a 1 gate nexus you will have 2 goons shooting at the bunker at ~4:30. Now, you'll have 2 goons shooting at ~5:00. They can shoot for only 20 seconds before siege is done. Also, w/o early dragoons to deny scouting, there is no need for T to build engineering bay/turrets. So T's early game is much smoother.
For the sake of argument, let's say you can continuously produce goons out of those 2 gates, get a robo, AND a 3rd nexus (a very generous assumption). You'll have 4 goons at 5:00, 8 at 6:00, and 10 at 7:00 + a shuttle. In Flash vs Free on Grand Line, Flash gets pressured early game (which this build can't), puts down an engineering bay (which this build won't force), and STILL is able to get 7 marines and 6 tanks at 7:00. I'd say 7 marines + 6 tanks + scvs > 10 goons + a shuttle.
I still like this P build though, but I'm just pointing out its one huge weakness.
I didn't read half of what you said just because you mentioned 2 goons @ 4:30 vs a bunker (range doesn't even finish until 4:45 he said and the other build has faster range) How do you kill a bunker with no range?
Now that its been revealed hopefully the SKT protosses will start using this in pvt more often so we can see what decisions they make when they come up against 1 rax fe's. This build is so raw i figured we could start speculating now >.>
On May 12 2011 12:36 aegisabcde wrote: This is weak vs a 1 rax CC timing push. Usually with a 1 gate nexus you will have 2 goons shooting at the bunker at ~4:30. Now, you'll have 2 goons shooting at ~5:00. They can shoot for only 20 seconds before siege is done. Also, w/o early dragoons to deny scouting, there is no need for T to build engineering bay/turrets. So T's early game is much smoother.
For the sake of argument, let's say you can continuously produce goons out of those 2 gates, get a robo, AND a 3rd nexus (a very generous assumption). You'll have 4 goons at 5:00, 8 at 6:00, and 10 at 7:00 + a shuttle. In Flash vs Free on Grand Line, Flash gets pressured early game (which this build can't), puts down an engineering bay (which this build won't force), and STILL is able to get 7 marines and 6 tanks at 7:00. I'd say 7 marines + 6 tanks + scvs > 10 goons + a shuttle.
I still like this P build though, but I'm just pointing out its one huge weakness.
I didn't read half of what you said just because you mentioned 2 goons @ 4:30 vs a bunker (range doesn't even finish until 4:45 he said and the other build has faster range) How do you kill a bunker with no range?
Why should I reference that when I know when range can finish? For example, in this game it clearly finishes at 4:38.
The timings just came out of the replay that i ran. Theres obviously some level of leeway here (eg: if i cut a probe to get range out it would come out a few seconds earlier, aka 4:38)
On May 12 2011 12:59 FyRe_DragOn wrote: edit: also 10 dragoons beats 6 tanks and 7 marines with scvs..u just one shot every tank, then clean up the marines
Without siege, maybe, with siege, no way, and there's no reason why you wouldn't have siege at that timing. Flash had it btw. The marines dps alone would take out quite a few dragoons. Also, try defending against this push when the tanks are parked outside your natural. It's not like you will have much room for splitting your dragoons or surrounding him.
EPT
