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I need help in this matchup of ZvP in the mid-late game. In the early game I'm doing fine, but once Protoss gets into the mid-late game and adds Collossi and HT to their army of mostly Stalkers (and some Zeals for the front line) then I'm never able to win.
I have alot of (failed) experience with this, because my friend follows pretty much the same strategy every game. I'm sometimes able to win when I do an all-in cheese rush like Nydus, Muta, or mass speedling rush. But I'd really love to be able to find a way that I might be able to win in the mid-late game.
Below is a replay of probably the best example of what I'm struggling with. For most of the game I had complete map control, was rallying units to the middle of the map, had creep spread all over, and had a unit mix of Roaches Lings and Hydras with 1/1 upgrades, with some Mutas. I was able to win the first battle, and he retreated. Once in his base, I tried poking his defenses to try and find a way in. But once he brings in the Collossi and HT like he does every game, I can't find any unit composition that can fight his unit composition in a head-on battle.
http://rapidshare.com/files/368845581/ZvP_to_study.SC2Replay.html
When analyzing the replay I noticed that although I had map control, I could have taken advantage of this by expanding more. I also noticed that his probe count was higher than my drone count even though I had map control, so I realize this is one mistake I made. Even if I had a better income, I have no idea what to spend it on once he brings the collossi and HT online into his mix.
I've also tried to bring Infestors into my game by trying to neural parasite his HT and then have it cast storm on his own HTs, but I've never been able to cast the Psi Storm in time (either the infestor dies or the parasited HT dies). In games where I bring infestors into the mix, my friend backs off on building Collossi, and sticks with lots of HT with his mix instead, so that I can't turn his Collossi against him with neural parasite.
I've also tried to bring Ultralisks into my mix as well. They are definitely a tough unit. They have never been able to help me win a battle, because it often ends up being that every unit in my army that is not an Ultralisk gets Psi Stormed. Then my Ultralisks have no support and they just end up dying.
On another note, I should also mention that my friend's micro is superior to mine, he is a much more experienced player, so my downfall might just come down to a lack of experience and micro. But it is my hope that there might be some practical advise that might help me anyways. He often blinks his injured stalkers to the back row, and I end up losing because of it.
In other games I have tried to flank him, but so far I've been unsuccessful with it. He usually has observers on the field and sees my flank attempts in advance.
I appreciate any feedback that may be able to help me better deal with this.
Thank You,
EDIT: If anyone has a replay of a ZvP game where a good micro Protoss player mixes in HT with their army, and the Zerg is able to win in a head-to-head battle, please post it
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i'm having trouble here as well... even if i have 5-6 BLs and a mass of hydras with some lings for good measure... i get owned.
4-5 colossus take out all my hydras no problem... the stalkers drop my BLs before i can move them... they don't even need high templars from what i've experienced.. just mass stalkers with a handful of zealots and colossus..... i even tried banelings but a pack of 15ish gets roasted before they even get close... i've also tried infestors by the time they get within range to cast anything they're already dead... i seriously have no idea how we can even make this battle close... i've had battles where i've had a 40+ supply army advantage and still get obliterated....
please help!
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ive only played one protoss so far who really used templars to their advantage (im rank #11 in platinum div 8, or was before I slept anyways lol) and thats the only thing that really is an issue in my opinion.. Hydras are just so slow, they cant dodge storms as easy as in BW. Not that im complaining balance wise, its just we will have to find another way to beat this protoss army.
For collosus/stalker, I usually do the Julyzerg style Muta harass to stall while I take the whole map and mass roach/hydra/ling/etc.. so what I try doing, is getting my mutas to take out the collosus (catch them out of position) while my hydras take out phoenix/stalkers, or any collosus in range. The key there, is not letting the collosus have free fire over your hydra/roach line, or at least splitting them up so they dont damage your whole force in 1 hit. You may sacrifice like 8 mutas to kill 2 collosus, but then your hydras can clean up the stalkers easily.
If they have 5+ collosus, you really need to attack or at least stall before they ever get to that point. At that point, I think protoss won.
Brood lords are intriging, I havent even used them yet to be honest, but I imagine they could take out collosus very fast, same thing as before just get good position so stalkers have to blink into your hydras to attack them, but then your hydras eat the stalkers up. Keep hydras away from col's until they are gone or 1-2 left.
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in my experience the only thing that could make this battles close are mass 3-3 roaches with speed and regen upgrade. You should always right click walk them to the enemy army to get a little closer to him , so that he cant storm you without his own units. In a even battle he will come out victorious but seriously decimated. You can pump roaches faster then he can pump his shit so you will be able to atleast beat him back until he runs out of minerals.
i am a rank 30 plat player pre reset.
Dont know how well this would work on higher levels.
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I should also remind you guys.. this is ZERG vs PROTOSS.. If you remember in BW, If the Protoss has a 150/150 army of goon/zeal/archon/templars, and you have 200/200 of hydra/ling/etc (no swarm).. Who always wins? The protoss. Thats their racial identity, let protoss get big and they should be able to roll over anyone.. Zerg is not suppose to win those big battles, they are suppose to just weaken the protoss down by harassing and swarming til the protoss is tapping out.
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Russian Federation81 Posts
i watched this replay and what ca n isay:
1) your build order is bad. if you going to expand, you could expand it earlier.
1 guy advices very good BO for me:
pool 14, then gas+roach+queen+over+zerling (about 17) all at the same time after pool finished
at 18 you go for your nat.
at 100gas upgrade lings/lair
zerlings should know whats goign on and you have to create coutner. usually mass lings is enough to beat any atatck form him. (you should make workers straight untill unit supply ~26, then massing lings/roachers to defend
2) i noticed you expanded faster than protos but still had way less resources (good gob with spending htough). you need to keep workers number very high. you had like 12 and 8 drons at main and nat, thats why you didnt had mney.
3) due of [2] you wasnt able to make big armies and thus, at some points of the game you had like 140 pop agaisnt protoss 200, and it wasn't "after battle" statistics. you ALWAYS should be ahead of population of toss, thanks queens.
4) you better dont try to push his base unless you have really solid background to reinforce army. this toss, even played badly, managed to get a good sim city and its hard to atack choke with your masses.
zerg need big place for his army to be able attack from 2 sides at least.
zergs win in front attacks very rare.
5) you might ask what to do if you cant attack his chocke - answer is: expand more. you got some "map control" (even though protoss just didnt didnt went ahead, he could have map control instead of you but for some reasons played very turtle style)
try to get many expansion but with strong base (liek 3 hatcheries + queens non stop so you can reinforce fast)
6) your upgrades weren't enough. you had armor 1 at least by 2/3 of the game, which is bad. try to upgrade more.
also your units wasnt much superior to coutner his stalkers, i.e. roachers arent very good since they armored. hydras fits this role better even they're slower but still..
you hadnt lings there, but you dont have minerals supply for them as i unerstand, hovewer they can take some weak meat shield .
at actual battle you had no chances to win in blob, with better army you needed to attack from 2-3 sides so collossi cant rape everything. + lings could evade zealots wall and hit hard these stalkers.
at this point as said, probably only mass BL can help you vs collosi. perhars ifnestors, but it requires lots of micro/luck involved.
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cool, thanks for all the feedback and analysis. I will practice implementing what I've learned here into my games.
sounds like the main idea is that against a solid mid-late game mix of protoss units, there isn't one particular unix mix that zerg requires to win. it sounds like Zerg is all about macro powering, expanding and having enough income to the point that toss wont be able to keep up with zerg's production. for some reason i thought that starcraft would be balanced in such a way that there would be a particular unit composition that zerg could use to counter the unit composition that toss is using, but now I understand that this is not really the case. i guess protoss's thing is to reach a strong unit composition, while zerg's thing is to reach a weak but huge mass of forces.
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chinaski's point about attacking from 2-3 sides is the one people keep skipping over. Blob fighting colossus is just feeding. Split your army before engagement, not during. I learned this the hard way in Free Fire Advance Server too, flanking matters more than raw numbers. Curious though, does anyone actually pull off the muta snipe on colossus consistently or does the protoss just pull them back every time?
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EPT
