TvP 1 rax FE into 6 factory timing 9 Supply 11 Rax 16 CC 17 Supply -A nice wall will prevent run bys Make sure to heal the bunker you later make to keep it alive from the goons
Think of adding the 2nd factory when the first is 50%
Add more production buildings
You can try pushing out after your completed production buildings make a round of vultures
Protoss will almost always take a fast 3rd in order to stay one base higher than terran If protoss tries to mass on two base, terran might still be able to push out, or instead take a 3rd
You can make an armory and an academy while pushing out or make a 3rd command center.
There was a ton of this build being used in the YSL Ro32 I saw yesterday. I think every time it failed. I noticed when this pushes out Terran is behind by 20 supply compared to toss. Does someone know how reliable this build is?
On September 05 2012 08:40 BWalma wrote: There was a ton of this build being used in the YSL Ro32 I saw yesterday. I think every time it failed. I noticed when this pushes out Terran is behind by 20 supply compared to toss. Does someone know how reliable this build is?
Also thanks for the guide.
in general, into the macro stages of the game, protoss should be 20 supply ahead of terran. its just how things go.
On September 05 2012 08:40 BWalma wrote: There was a ton of this build being used in the YSL Ro32 I saw yesterday. I think every time it failed. I noticed when this pushes out Terran is behind by 20 supply compared to toss. Does someone know how reliable this build is?
Also thanks for the guide.
It all depends on the execution from the Terran.
I was C+/B- peak when I still regularly played BW, and TvP / PvT were my best matchups. From my experience, PvT was easier than TvP by far at least around the upper C ranks, especially when it comes to push breaking (playing as P) vs. actually pushing (playing as T).
It's impressive and showy when nice zealot mine drags or shuttle bombs dismantle a push, but in reality it's not that APM intensive or difficult to accomplish. However, setting up effective mine fields, spreading tanks on-the-fly, good turret placement then rinse and repeat x 2-4 times (to actually reach the protoss natural) is hard as fuck to perfect, and doesn't garner as much showmanship as the flashy stuff P does during push breaking.
Really makes me appreciate a Flash TvP timing push, truly an art and a thing of beauty.
Hello, all. Look I know this thread is old as shit, but it's a good resource for the community, and I feel it could be expanded. I didn't see anything in this thread about what to do when protoss spots your 1 Rax FE and then proxy shuttles. It's hard enough executing this build while your bunker is under constant dragoon/zealot fire, but what do you do when your first tank barely pops and the protoss already has a shuttle on the way?
seriously though, you have to pull scvs and block and repair and micro and build turrets. if he comes from front with the reaver, you need 2 bunkers. the key to stop this is scouting that there is a proxy robo, but even if you find it, you can still die if you don't do the micro perfectly, of if the toss does it perfectly.
In the game I'm thinking of he elevatored his goons into my main. I only had one tank out. Are you saying that you should build a bunker in the main as well to prevent this?
Last consecutive post I promise. So let's say you survive the opening and protoss goes for 3rd. Should you immediately try for a timing push? Or is it better to turtle and take a 3rd yourself and go double armory?
by the time he elevates goons in your main, you should have 2 tanks at least i think. no. i'm saying if he comes with a reaver on the ground to your natural to kill your bunker, you should have 2 bunkers there. to stop an elevator, you need to build a supply depot or something wide out in your base to spot his strategy. when you see that he is starting to elevate goons, take half of your scvs in the main and a tank and attack the goons. don't let him snipe the tank, you need to block and repair with scvs. newly built tanks should come and you should also probably leave 1 tank and/or scvs at your natural to cover the bunker.
the choice to go for a timing push or going 3 base depends on you, which style do you prefer. both can work, both can loose. a good player should variate because he becomes unpredictable by doing so. this doesn't affect ladder though, because if you always play vs a new opponent, you are unpredictable anyway. thats why ladder rank doesn't always show real skill level, since you can just use 1 build on ladder all the time, but die after the second game using that vs 1 opponent. if you came out behind after the opening, a timing push will most probably not work. but in that case, you will most probably loose anyway, because if you go 3 base, tvp gets significantly harder, cause you have to deal with arbiters.
you seem to be a beginner so in your case i would just practice making workers and macroing without flaws.
I don't think you will get very informed answers to your question, because the better foreign Terrans who do 1 Rax Expand vs Protoss can probably be counted on one hand. You should probably rather watch progames from the last BW only proleague. There Terrans played pretty consistently 1 Rax Expand. I remember this game that is pretty much the case you describe, the only difference is, Flash went 14 CC on the high ground, the timings are pretty similar though. Jangbi wants to counter it with a proxy Robo. Flash indeed has only one tank out by the time Jangbi wants to elevator some troops in so your timing should be alright with that.
Wow. do you have some kind of database or you remember all these games??
You originally posted a sun vs reality game, you might have meant this one instead:
because the one you linked was an FD vs fast reaver, and this is 1 rax exp vs proxy dt.
To summarize the conclusions from these 8 games:
-If you can't see a fast nexus reaction with your initial scout, scout around your base for a proxy robo and/or gates (right after your bunker finishes). You should be able to find it. If you can't find anything, but you scout no expansion, still expect some inbase robo or dt. He can actually dt even if he expanded. -I indeed said it wrong, you should only have 1 tank when the elevating starts, in fact, sea and bogus didn't even have a tank ready. -The best counter: once you see or suspect a robo, build a very fast ebay and cover the edge of your base with turrets (2-3). Halt scv production if needed; all the turrets in the main should be ready before your first tank is ready. This way he simply won't be able to do anything. If he drops anything in, he will loose the shuttle, and you just have kill his 2 goons or some zealots with scvs+1 tank. -Second possible counter: if you scout his shit late, or the main is too big to cover with turrets (for example tau cross), make extra marines and possibly build a bunker in the main as well. Use scvs+the first tank+extra marines+vults from the second fact to power down elevated goons and zealots. Meanwhile build an armory and goliaths or ebay and turrets to deal with the later arriving reaver. You also have to watch for the repairing of the frontal bunker. This scenario will be decided by the micro. you need to save and repair the tank, and trap the goons with scvs. Only siege if you think he can't pick out the tank, or if he will loose most of his units for it. You can still loose even if you killed the first wave of elevated units, if you're not prepared for the reaver.
fun facts: -out of the 5 games that were proxy robo, 4 were scouted with an scv, but despite that, only 2 were held. -poor hon_sin died 3 times to 3 different ways of this counter. -in every game, the statistically better player won. that means only flash and sea won among the terrans.
Yep, I have searchable notes and I remember them too.
If you scout 1 base robo: -Build ebay after 1 fac, then get 2nd factory. -Resume marine production and get 8. (Replenish back up to 8 if you lose any). -Get siege mode and make continuous tanks from both factories. -Get 8 tanks, and replenish back to 8 if you lose any. -I dont recommend a bunker in the main, get turrets instead. -I strongly dont recommend the armoury and goliath response.
Jangbi vs Flash is the best example of how to deal with it. See how he gets turrets in his main first closest to the ramp and just above (also closest to the location of the robo), then at the nat and in the corner of the main, he even adds a second turret at the ramp. However, Jangbi is not as aggressive as he is vs Bogus where he has 2 proximity gates in addition to the robo. Bogus' turret wasnt complete so the aggression was partly through opportunity too though. Bogus didnt win vs Jangbi, but he does choose to do the best response, and executes very well. Unlike in the Flash game, Jangbi drops before the 2nd turret finished and this disruption caused the 3rd turret to be late and not placed on the perimeter. This leads to the reaver sniping it down and leaving Bogus with a hole in his defense. Jangbi continues to exploit this to the absolute max. Bogus has to work hard to hold, and in doing so lets his ebay get killed. There is a moment where he really wants to plug the hole in his turret perimeter but has to wait for his ebay to get rebuilt. But overall, Bogus does hold it adequately. He was behind a little bit but not massively, and could still win the game. The first reaver got 14 kills which is a little too high for comfort, but Jangbi was still on 1 base and heavily invested etc. When Jangbi attacks at the end, he has a large army compared to Bogus. I would say Bogus could have got vultures a bit sooner and also the map is relatively hard to take a 3rd for T, and relatively easy to defend a 3rd vs vults for P. Its also worth mentioning that Sniper Ridge and Ground Zero both have large mains. The '5 turret rule' (2 in nat, 3 in main forming a perimeter) is stretched to the limit on Ground Zero, while on Sniper Ridge you cant make a perimeter safely. So therefore you could say that Jangbis strategy was simply better. Well Im not going to get into that too much, but my new map 'The Latin Quarter' attempts to blend the best aspects of Sniper Ridge, Ground Zero, Dantes Peak and La Mancha while toning down the worst parts slightly.
Some small things: Hon_sin vs Jaehoon. Terran was planning to make 1 fac 1 port. He manages to scout the P build fully, but then he still continues and starts his 1 port anyway. Then he gets academy, again just following his pre planned build order. Jaehoon crushes him and I was glad. Yes, a wraith can counter a shuttle, but as demonstrated, the build is really not able to cope with 1 base robo. And thats fine. TY vs Jangbi, he only got 2 marines. They dont put out enough dps for safety. No sympathy from me
Hon_sin vs Bisu. This is on New Sniper Ridge. The naturals cannot be covered by siege tanks on the high ground on this map. The nat choke and the cc is far from the main ramp. The mains size and shape is huge to defend vs drops. But anyway, T gets tanks from 1 fac, and vult from the second (only 1 shop). Its not proxy robo but it is 2 gate goon. SCV sees 4th and 5th goon. He loses the bunker+marines vs 7 goons and has to retreat into the main. This is not ideal and technically T should be able to not lose the bunker. But if you do lose the bunker vs 6 or more goons, the game is not over or anything. He retakes his nat with 3 tanks and 2 vults. Mine upgrade finishes and atleast 2 get laid, then P attacks with 2 zealot 1 reaver in shuttle. This moment is at 8:20 in vod. Hon_sins game crumbles in seconds. Bisu does micro very well, and the camera cuts so we dont see the mine placement or goon hits vs them, so perhaps P got a bit lucky vs mines. Even so, what could T have done differently atleast? When you see 2 gate goon, its wise to work under the assumption that you might lose your bunker and first tank in the worst case scenario. 2 factories both making siege tanks is more powerful in the immediate defensively than 1 fac tank 1 fac vult. Its more muscle and thats what Terran MIGHT need vs this opener. In this game, Bisu did infact get a reaver, and Terran did infact lose the bunker, so yes, Hon_sin would have benefitted from the extra muscle. Perhaps Hon_sin could have made a turret on his highground near his ramp, and possibly he could have made more marines. Something worth mentioning is he could have stayed sieged up, focus firing on the goons/reaver for as long as possible. Dont get me wrong, he probably still would have lost. Im gunna link to a specific part of a game. The reason I want to link it is because there is an attack at 11.50 where Terran has 5 tanks in siege mode and 2 marines and no turrets, vs 2 zealot 1 reaver and 10 goons. (ofcourse 10 is too high, Bisu had made only 9 and had lost 3 prior to the reaver attack). This situation is loosely what it could have been like if Hon_sin had gone 2 fac tank and microed differently. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/125174_INnoVation_vs_Snow/vod
See how Bogus stays sieged up and targets the goons and reaver. He also has 2 shops so he gets 2 tanks reinforcements which is better than 1 tank 1 vult when in desperate situations. The overall impression of this attack is that Bogus seems to be in with much more of a fighting chance atleast throughout. Kind of demonstrates some points Im making.
Well, thats pretty in depth and somewhat specific too. So I hope your happy Cryoc
Nice collection and analysis, thanks. Maybe someday I will be able to open 1 Rax Expand and not lose in the first 10 minutes, too. I am even more interested in those searchable notes of yours. It would be nice if you could maybe make a thread like the TvT thread you did some time ago for TvP and TvZ openings (if you have it) where you list all the games with the T and Z/P openings.
I have no problems with 1 rax expand, except for when they do the eraliest possible proxy robotics outside of my base. They have a reaver and like four dragoons before I even have one tank with siege mode.
Does any one have any ideas for how to solve this?
On December 13 2014 14:53 vOdToasT wrote: I have no problems with 1 rax expand, except for when they do the eraliest possible proxy robotics outside of my base. They have a reaver and like four dragoons before I even have one tank with siege mode.
Does any one have any ideas for how to solve this?
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