i wrote this a long time ago, just forgot to post.
On November 28 2014 07:12 CardinalAllin wrote: Yep, I have searchable notes and I remember them too.
If you scout 1 base robo: -Build ebay after 1 fac, then get 2nd factory. -Resume marine production and get 8. (Replenish back up to 8 if you lose any). -Get siege mode and make continuous tanks from both factories. -Get 8 tanks, and replenish back to 8 if you lose any. -I dont recommend a bunker in the main, get turrets instead. -I strongly dont recommend the armoury and goliath response.
Jangbi vs Flash is the best example of how to deal with it. See how he gets turrets in his main first closest to the ramp and just above (also closest to the location of the robo), then at the nat and in the corner of the main, he even adds a second turret at the ramp. However, Jangbi is not as aggressive as he is vs Bogus where he has 2 proximity gates in addition to the robo. Bogus' turret wasnt complete so the aggression was partly through opportunity too though. Bogus didnt win vs Jangbi, but he does choose to do the best response, and executes very well. Unlike in the Flash game, Jangbi drops before the 2nd turret finished and this disruption caused the 3rd turret to be late and not placed on the perimeter. This leads to the reaver sniping it down and leaving Bogus with a hole in his defense. Jangbi continues to exploit this to the absolute max. Bogus has to work hard to hold, and in doing so lets his ebay get killed. There is a moment where he really wants to plug the hole in his turret perimeter but has to wait for his ebay to get rebuilt. But overall, Bogus does hold it adequately. He was behind a little bit but not massively, and could still win the game. The first reaver got 14 kills which is a little too high for comfort, but Jangbi was still on 1 base and heavily invested etc. When Jangbi attacks at the end, he has a large army compared to Bogus. I would say Bogus could have got vultures a bit sooner and also the map is relatively hard to take a 3rd for T, and relatively easy to defend a 3rd vs vults for P. Its also worth mentioning that Sniper Ridge and Ground Zero both have large mains. The '5 turret rule' (2 in nat, 3 in main forming a perimeter) is stretched to the limit on Ground Zero, while on Sniper Ridge you cant make a perimeter safely. So therefore you could say that Jangbis strategy was simply better. Well Im not going to get into that too much, but my new map 'The Latin Quarter' attempts to blend the best aspects of Sniper Ridge, Ground Zero, Dantes Peak and La Mancha while toning down the worst parts slightly.
Some small things: Hon_sin vs Jaehoon. Terran was planning to make 1 fac 1 port. He manages to scout the P build fully, but then he still continues and starts his 1 port anyway. Then he gets academy, again just following his pre planned build order. Jaehoon crushes him and I was glad. Yes, a wraith can counter a shuttle, but as demonstrated, the build is really not able to cope with 1 base robo. And thats fine. TY vs Jangbi, he only got 2 marines. They dont put out enough dps for safety. No sympathy from me
Hon_sin vs Bisu. This is on New Sniper Ridge. The naturals cannot be covered by siege tanks on the high ground on this map. The nat choke and the cc is far from the main ramp. The mains size and shape is huge to defend vs drops. But anyway, T gets tanks from 1 fac, and vult from the second (only 1 shop). Its not proxy robo but it is 2 gate goon. SCV sees 4th and 5th goon. He loses the bunker+marines vs 7 goons and has to retreat into the main. This is not ideal and technically T should be able to not lose the bunker. But if you do lose the bunker vs 6 or more goons, the game is not over or anything. He retakes his nat with 3 tanks and 2 vults. Mine upgrade finishes and atleast 2 get laid, then P attacks with 2 zealot 1 reaver in shuttle. This moment is at 8:20 in vod. Hon_sins game crumbles in seconds. Bisu does micro very well, and the camera cuts so we dont see the mine placement or goon hits vs them, so perhaps P got a bit lucky vs mines. Even so, what could T have done differently atleast? When you see 2 gate goon, its wise to work under the assumption that you might lose your bunker and first tank in the worst case scenario. 2 factories both making siege tanks is more powerful in the immediate defensively than 1 fac tank 1 fac vult. Its more muscle and thats what Terran MIGHT need vs this opener. In this game, Bisu did infact get a reaver, and Terran did infact lose the bunker, so yes, Hon_sin would have benefitted from the extra muscle. Perhaps Hon_sin could have made a turret on his highground near his ramp, and possibly he could have made more marines. Something worth mentioning is he could have stayed sieged up, focus firing on the goons/reaver for as long as possible. Dont get me wrong, he probably still would have lost. Im gunna link to a specific part of a game. The reason I want to link it is because there is an attack at 11.50 where Terran has 5 tanks in siege mode and 2 marines and no turrets, vs 2 zealot 1 reaver and 10 goons. (ofcourse 10 is too high, Bisu had made only 9 and had lost 3 prior to the reaver attack). This situation is loosely what it could have been like if Hon_sin had gone 2 fac tank and microed differently. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/125174_INnoVation_vs_Snow/vod
See how Bogus stays sieged up and targets the goons and reaver. He also has 2 shops so he gets 2 tanks reinforcements which is better than 1 tank 1 vult when in desperate situations. The overall impression of this attack is that Bogus seems to be in with much more of a fighting chance atleast throughout. Kind of demonstrates some points Im making.
Well, thats pretty in depth and somewhat specific too. So I hope your happy Cryoc
some additions (and corrections) to your analysis of the games (this is even more in depth):
I do agree that Flash had the best reaction (fast ebay and turrets) and Bogus had the same reaction, only his execution had a little flaw (one turret was not complete yet) and that's what opened a possibility for continuous harassment, what Jangbi did very well. Had Bogus built that back turret a little earlier, the game would have possible gone even worse than vs Flash, since Jangbi's build was pretty allin and he couldn't have done anything with it. This is a good example that shows how a very small mistake can lead to huge consequences, and how complex and good this game is. Maybe it's worth to mention that probably Jangbi didn't apply that extra gateway pressure against Flash, because Flash scouted the proxy pylon even before Jangbi built anything else. And Bogus scouted it when the 2 buildings were already warping, so Jangbi didn't want to cancel them.
However i don't agree that a bunker in the main and goliaths were totally bad counters. If you don't scout the robo (in time), or the main is so big that only 5 turrets would cover it, then goliaths are better i think. If you can't finish all the turrets, and he enters the hole, its almost like you have nothing. The point of the bunker is not to save you, but to cover the tank. As you can see hon_Sin did hold the first attack vs Stats, only his micro and positioning wasn't good enough later. You need to wait for the shuttle with the goliaths.
Hon_Sin vs Jaehoon. Sin didn't manage to get a full scout. He did scout that there is no exp, and he did see the gateways, but he didn't see the robo. You can tell this from the ending of the game, when he is dead, and scanning around possible proxy locations to find a robo. So there was probably a complete misjudgement of the build, but it's unclear for me what hon_Sin was expecting. Maybe proxy dt tech, or 3 gate dragoon, but in any case, his way of thinking wasn't right, cause a so fast port is too early vs a 3 gate build.
Baby vs Jangbi and Hon_Sin vs Bisu I think that in both of these games P build was not a simple reactionary 2 gate robo, but a pre-scout planned powergoon (10-15 gate), or at least some variant of it... it's not so easy to see it properly in the vod. They got lucky and the opponent went 1 rax exp, so they continued to add pressure by adding a robo later. Baby really didn't expect anything like what Jangbi did, and hon_Sin expected dts way too early (the p cannot have 2 gate, that many dragoons with range and dt tech at the same time) - you can see that from the too fast frontal turret and how he covers it with the barracks. He simply didn't think of a robo. If he was, he would have added turrets in his main too. I think even though the terrans scouted the beginning of the p build in both games, they failed to identify it and prepare for it's risk properly, so both of them lost the bunker. The first tank was a bit late, which is really the worst thing vs this p opening. You write that "technically T should be able to not lose the bunker. But if you do lose the bunker vs 6 or more goons, the game is not over or anything." I think that loosing the bunker is crucial if you don't have siege yet. Basicly most of the time it means loosing the game right there but even if you manage to block his goons with scvs until you have siege, you loose mining time and scvs and he will have an economical advantage (he can double expand safely).
On September 06 2012 04:02 UPro-BW wrote: How to handle the proxy reaver or the 10/15 builds?
So... it has been answered how to hold a reaver but how to hold a powergoon with rax FE?
You don't neccessarily have to scout the 10-15 gate, because you can guess from the fast dragoon timings as well, but scouting the build is useful, so you know what to expect. The powergoon is pretty simple to recognize, the second gate is warped before the second pylon, and the P stops probe production for some time.
The following things are required:
- You need to know the 1rax FE build order well and execute it without major time waste. - You should know how to block the way into the main with buildings. Your whole building positions should be thought out in advance. (See end of post.) If you don't have a proper block, he can run in much easier because blocking with scvs only is much harder. - Prepare scvs for repair in advance. First 2-3, later 6-7-8 will be needed. Of course, as many scvs as dragoons. But don't wait for dragoons to come, move the workers close to the bunker before. - Definately make 4 marines. - You need to have the tank out with siege mode as soon as possible. Stop the scv production for it if you don't have enough money. He has to do the same, so you will still be ahead economically. The early tank is crucial. cc->gas->+2scv->fact->addon->tank+siege->rallied to the choke, all without wasted time. I know it's tough, but the tank can be done with siege mode as early as ~5:40 or even 5:35 if you do it perfectly. But at least by 6 min. - Now 6 dragoons arrive there around 5:15 so there is a crucial ~20-30 seconds where you have no sieged tank yet but the p has 6-7 dragoons and he can 1-shot a few scvs before his dragoons die to marine fire. You have to be extremely careful there to bring new scvs to repair the bunker. You can bring the unsieged tank too, but only if the building positions allow you to move it freely so it won't die. - Once the tank is out, you have to place it at just the right distance. Not so close that he can pick it out if he comes closer, but close enough so that the tank is in range of dragoons firing the bunker. - Once he retreated from the tank, don't pull all scvs to the minerals yet! Leave 2-3 close to the bunker until you have 2-3 tanks. He might be returning with more (3-4 gate units).
Again, lets see typical problems and solutions: - the bunker is not ready in time when the first dragoon arrives. -> build the bunker right after you started the factory. - you loose the bunker when too many dragoons attack it. -> watch the state of repair all the time. do every other action from hotkey or very fast. - you loose the bunker because he suprises you with a lot of dragoons and there are no scvs to repair. -> prepare scvs in advance, even if he doesnt attack. even if he backed, leave a few scvs at the bunker in case he returns for a new wave of attack. - he just walks by your bunker to the main. -> set up a proper wall of barracks+supply. you need to know in advance how to do it on different maps. you can now easily block the much more narrow way with scvs. - your first tank is too late. -> learn the build order properly. you will not have enough money because of the mass repair, so you need to halt scv production before the factory finishes, so you can immediately start the tank+siege. - you loose the first tank. -> don't attack him before siege, unless you are on high ground or he can't reach it properly. similarly, only siege up on high ground or at a safe distance back from the bunker and make sure that you can block with scvs if he tries to snipe.
Another way to hold a powergoon is to build an academy after the rax and research marine range. This is actually a valid 1rax FE variation.
Now actually if you managed to hold the goons isn't game over yet because he can double expand or go robo/dt. So based on the info that your first, and second scout (that was out the whole time) gave you, you either should build turrets to stop the reaver/dt, or if he (double) expanded, you should go for a (3-)4 fact counter to win.
On December 13 2014 14:53 vOdToasT wrote: I have no problems with 1 rax expand, except for when they do the eraliest possible proxy robotics outside of my base. They have a reaver and like four dragoons before I even have one tank with siege mode.
Does any one have any ideas for how to solve this?
Edit:
Mong bunker rushed the robotics facility
Yes, that bunker rush is pretty good vs a proxy robo, here is Mong's fpview of that same game:
But it isn't always so easy to find the robo, here's another Mong fpview where he screwed up to find it in time:
It shows that you must be very cautious about the protoss build, cause he was just a little late finding it, and so he didn't have enough time to react properly. If the p scouts you on first, or really early, you should be suspicious. If you don't see a fast nex reaction, you should start to search for proxy locations and throw down an ebay.
This just shows that if you don't find a proxy or you find it too late, you might build a second bunker, and with good repair and micro and a fast enough tank, you should survive.
I suggest to watch id_neo.g's reppack from my rep thread (in the hidden section), he uses this build a lot and usually has a very fast tank.
I also wrote a reply to zimp a long time ago and didn’t get around to posting it. This post is tedious, long winded, badly organised, not very useful. Lets go.
zimp wrote:However i don't agree that a bunker in the main and goliaths were totally bad counters. If you don't scout the robo (in time), or the main is so big that only 5 turrets would cover it, then goliaths are better i think. If you can't finish all the turrets, and he enters the hole, its almost like you have nothing. The point of the bunker is not to save you, but to cover the tank. As you can see hon_Sin did hold the first attack vs Stats, only his micro and positioning wasn't good enough later. You need to wait for the shuttle with the goliaths.
Re-reading my post, I spent my time explaining in depth what I consider the best response. Added to that was 2 quick lines. I said: -I dont recommend a bunker in the main, get turrets instead. -I strongly dont recommend the armoury and goliath response.
I didn’t spend any time explaining these 2 statements. If you know my writing style I sometimes write bullet points like this in an attempt to engage the reader. Eg in the How to play vs mech switch thread I wrote ‘Don’t get ultra ling. Don’t get ultra drops’ as two bullet points at the start of the thread. But on the last line of the thread I wrote ‘Also, I know this post is only about the hydra queen style. If you want I can talk more about the ultra drop style which I believe is not as effective.’ which hints I think its viable, (and ofcourse it is viable, it’s the joint most common lategame zvt style).
Going back to this thread, I stand by those statements. But understand I didn’t say its unviable let alone totally bad, I said I strongly don’t recommend it. And the reason for that is I don’t think it’s the best. So now I will expand on what I think about the goliath and no ebay response. On New Empire of the Sun the main and nat is flat, and indeed the main is surrounded by vision blocking terrain which provides cover for air units attacking the main. This means that a turret perimeter is hugely weakened. If you were to make turrets you have to make them closer to your buildings and away from the edge of the base. This allows the reaver to land and shoot at the start before siege tank numbers have built up. Protoss can do that vs the goliath strat too though before gol numbers have built up. The goliath strat is better suited to a map like this but do I think its better? No I still think pure tank is best. You have 2 factories and they can build 1 unit at a time. This is the resource that is most crucial in this situation. I don’t think goliaths have the necessary punch. But again I do think other styles are viable apart from pure tank, be it tank/vulture, or tank/goliath. You mention that goliath response can be good “if you don’t scout the robo (in time)”. Well, those are 2 very different situations. Did you not scout the robo at all or did you scout the robo late? If you don’t scout the robo at all, but chose the goliath response, you would be vulnerable to dt. And in the second situation, if you don’t scout the robo in time, then it means you haven’t scouted anything else either, so you should already be getting an ebay. So the next question becomes; Is it sometimes worth cancelling ebay to switch to goliath response if you manage to get a late scout on the robo? As you know I say that pure tank is stronger but if a player were to switch it could work. So the question becomes how late can you ‘switch’ to goliath style. Well you probably want to have started the armoury before the 2nd fac finishes really at the absolute latest. But this is all a bit pointless, just don’t take the risk in the first place and only go goliath if you managed to scout the robo in time. Your comment is possibly talking about a situation where you didn’t start your ebay (which means you are being risky already) and then scout the robo late. I agree that if you have skipped ebay (because you are taking a risk) and then scout robo late, then it is acceptable to do the goliath response. But honestly Id still prefer pure tank and start ebay anyway even though turrets will not be in time for the initial attacks.
You mention “or the main is so big that only 5 turrets would cover it”. I had previously written. “Its also worth mentioning that Sniper Ridge and Ground Zero both have large mains. The '5 turret rule' (2 in nat, 3 in main forming a perimeter) is stretched to the limit on Ground Zero, while on Sniper Ridge you cant make a perimeter safely.” This would suggest that Flash and Bogus would be wise to use the goliath response on Ground Zero but they both chose not to. So that is a small plus point in favour of pure tank.
Something we haven’t talked about is taking a third base. If the path to the 3rd is unbuildable, then goliath style is stronger (if you are able to reach that stage). Also, if the 3rd is a bit far away, or harder to defend due to openness, or position relative to the nat and main etc. Another thing is simply personal style. Sin and a few other terrans opt for goliaths a lot more regularly than others.
Now about bunker in the main. I separated this out. Imagine terran goes pure tank and ebay and makes extra marines. Now imagine he is on New Empire of the Sun or indeed New Sniper Ridge. Lets pretend terran scouts the proxy robo (like in Sin vs Stats) and doesn’t make a turret perimeter. Instead he makes a bunker in his main first, and gets pure tank, then later adds 3 turrets; 1 at nat, 1 at main cc, 1 inbetween. I would say this is still stronger than the goliath strat. Id argue this would be safe for long enough to become stable. And Id argue it would do so more reliably and faster than goliath style. Goliath style obviously gives mobile strong anti air that is able to zone out a shuttle quickly (eventually). It actually takes a while to get to that point especially if goons are ferried and if reaver control is good. Im just pointing out that once you have a few goliaths its still not locked down (in the same way once you have a few siege tanks you aren’t completely safe still). A determined Protoss can get a foothold in the terran main if he wants. He can gradually establish himself there to a degree by ferrying goons. Goliath style cant prevent that, and neither could pure tank with NO turret perimeter. So now we ask how would you as terran want to clear out a small goon army in your main with reaver support? The best way is with pure tank and marines, not goliath. And the pure tank is obviously the stronger defensively too if you don’t want to initiate, and prefer to instead let the protoss sit inside your main but at arms length while you build up more units. Imagine if Sin had gone pure tank vs Stats, but still got the bunker in his main, and then later put a turret protecting his main min line, and a turret at his nat and at his facs. So he wouldn’t have a classic 5 turret perimeter at the edge of his base but he would have a small anti-air perimeter consisting of 3 turrets and 2 bunkers. This would be a really strong defense, better than gols. Something like this: Note that the turret is placed close to the facs rather than close to the cliff overlooking the nat which isnt what you would normally do. Remember we are pretending a scenario where the main is very large and impossible to defend conventionally. We aren’t trying to keep Protoss from landing, we are allowing him to land, instead we are keeping him at arms length inside the main. (the main should be bigger than in the pic, extending out into the bottom right corner).
Something else to mention is the aggression level of Protoss. If they are getting a reaver and harassing with it but otherwise being defensive with goons, then goliath response is very good, and so is getting 1 wraith. If it’s a full goon bust with reaver support then goliath and wraith styles are not so good. We have to prepare for the worst case scenario if we want to be solid.
Sorry for wall of text. Long story short, I think goliath response is viable but not as good as pure tank and that’s why I don’t recommend it (standard maps, pro level etc etc)
zimp wrote:Hon_Sin vs Jaehoon. Sin didn't manage to get a full scout. He did scout that there is no exp, and he did see the gateways, but he didn't see the robo. You can tell this from the ending of the game, when he is dead, and scanning around possible proxy locations to find a robo. So there was probably a complete misjudgement of the build, but it's unclear for me what hon_Sin was expecting. Maybe proxy dt tech, or 3 gate dragoon, but in any case, his way of thinking wasn't right, cause a so fast port is too early vs a 3 gate build.
You are correct that Sin didn’t see the robo. Sins choice to make the star is bad in my opinion. When the star finishes, he doesn’t make an addon straight away and he doesn’t start making a wraith straight away either. This makes it hard to read his intentions fully. Its possible that he planned from the start of the game to make the star because Ground Zero has the ledge over the nats and it was close spawns. Most likely he was going to get a tank drop. He scouts the 3 gates, and yet he still starts his starport rather than a 2nd fac. Probably he was just blindly following his preset gameplan. And then he resigns himself to hold the 3 gate with just tanks and a wall. I always try to give a player credit though; technically (technically) he also might have been thinking that if it was 3 gate with proximity robo, he knows he has got the starport for a wraith, and he might have been really confident in his play that he could start making a wraith only if a shuttle is revealed! And if a wraith is not needed, he will get a dropship in a bit. What Im saying is, he didn’t see the robo, but that is not concrete evidence he assumed there is no robo at all. Technically he might be thinking there is definitely a proxy robo and he was so sure of that he doesn’t even bother to scv scout his 3rd base! He was scanning around for a proxy robo at the end just to confirm his conviction ofcourse haha. Back to reality, I agree that I think Sin wasn’t expecting a shuttle. Perhaps he had reasoned it was a 3 gate frontal ground attack without shuttle, and at that point maybe he decided to delay making anything from his starport and concentrate on getting more from his fac (even though he decided to get the starport after seeing 3 gate). With his good wall and with good scv micro he could have held a 3 gate goon/zealot with just siege tanks from 1 fac. Also, perhaps he thought he had more time before a shuttle would hit. But yeah I agree he made bad choices. Better to get 2nd fac instead of star. Even if he had got a wraith straight away and positioned it perfectly to take out the shuttle quite quickly, Id still prefer 2 fac, because wraith cant reliably do this.
zimp wrote:Baby vs Jangbi and Hon_Sin vs Bisu I think that in both of these games P build was not a simple reactionary 2 gate robo, but a pre-scout planned powergoon (10-15 gate), or at least some variant of it... it's not so easy to see it properly in the vod. They got lucky and the opponent went 1 rax exp, so they continued to add pressure by adding a robo later. Baby really didn't expect anything like what Jangbi did, and hon_Sin expected dts way too early (the p cannot have 2 gate, that many dragoons with range and dt tech at the same time) - you can see that from the too fast frontal turret and how he covers it with the barracks. He simply didn't think of a robo. If he was, he would have added turrets in his main too. I think even though the terrans scouted the beginning of the p build in both games, they failed to identify it and prepare for it's risk properly, so both of them lost the bunker. The first tank was a bit late, which is really the worst thing vs this p opening. You write that "technically T should be able to not lose the bunker. But if you do lose the bunker vs 6 or more goons, the game is not over or anything." I think that loosing the bunker is crucial if you don't have siege yet. Basicly most of the time it means loosing the game right there but even if you manage to block his goons with scvs until you have siege, you loose mining time and scvs and he will have an economical advantage (he can double expand safely).
This section feels off. In both games, the P gets 2nd gate before seeing what the Terran is doing (you can see on the minimap Bisu starts 2nd gate just before his probe reaches the Terran nat). A common build is 2 gate 6 goon expand, and its very possible Jangbi was doing that. We cant know for sure though. When Jangbi scouted T had gone rax expo, he reactively makes the proximity robo. Bisus opening was slightly different though, he gets 1 goon then pairs of goons, and attacks the bunker with 7 goons. It was during the hybrid league, 2 fac was more common (Bisu had lost several games to 2 fac recently after going 1 gate expo (need to check that)). 1 base/fairly early attacks were more common during hybrid league too in general. Bisu may have planned to do a freeform 6 or 7 goon expand if vs fac expo. He may even have done a 1 base 2 gate reaver vs fac expo too. We cant know for sure ofcourse. It doesn’t matter anyway.
Two comments that I don’t like “Baby really didn't expect anything like what Jangbi did” and “Sin simply didn't think of a robo”. TY vs Jangbi, terran starts a 3rd cc at 15.34 which is before his machine shop even finished lol. So its not that TY didn’t expect anything like what Jangbi did, its just he blindly hoped that Jangbi wouldn’t do it. He only made 2 rines, and his scv scout did not get to see anything except 2 goons (3rd goon is revealed at the bunker soon after though). Yes both Jangbi and Bisu certainly went ‘powergoon’. And yes I agree this lends itself to optionally continuing aggression. Sin vs Bisu, Terran doesn’t micro his scvs to defend the goon attack excellently. He repairs well initially, and he steps out to attack/block quite well but he doesn’t get his scvs back onto the bunker to repair it again well enough. If terran does not know whether robo or dt, he must prepare for both if he wants to be solid. If terran sees 6 or more goons attacking the bunker then he must be wary of a goon runby. To consistently safely defend a goon runby you need a wall at the nat, this means keep your rax landed. My preference is it should not be touching the bunker, the bunker should have a continuous 1 tile space around its surface area for scv to repair. You can wall with a depot (some maps/spawns) but often its much better to use the rax. If the defense is unsuccessful and you have to retreat to the main, you wont lose a depot for free either. Therefore if you see 6 or more goons, don’t lift the rax to cover your turret, keep it landed to protect your first tank. Also, almost definitely don’t poke with the first tank pre-siege, its too risky (when that many goons, though I don’t recommend poking with first tank anyway even when there’s less goons). When you make turrets, the first turret is built at the nat, and you add more turrets as the threats develop. Sins turret timing was fine, maybe a touch earlier than strictly necessary but it was fine timing and there are advantages of building it when he did so (tempts Protoss to come in and attempt to snipe it, which gives Terran information. And building it at that time doesnt delay anything critical so its good to get it out the way while apm is available). Its fairly unimportant though, it doesnt affect his survival chances. I know you were only mentioning it to demonstrate Sins thought process though. And his rax was lifted to cover the turret (suggesting he thought probably it was dt). I say its not an acceptable tactical choice to lift the rax when you are facing that many goons with a natural entrance of that width due to the threat of goon runby (unless you have some other building blocking, but rax is the best choice). The fact that Sin made a turret at his nat at that timing, and didn’t immediately start a turret at his main too, and the fact that he floated his rax over his turret does not signal he thought it was dt for certain though. I agree that it possibly and probably means he thought it was dt, but it is not concrete fact. Its also not too important, we should worry more about what he has definitely seen and what he should definitely do. Lastly, by lifting the rax, you allow DTs to run into the main easier (using the goons to tank the bunker fire). If terran fully relies on scv clogging the ramp, it is too risky. The best thing terran can do is to keep his rax landed, build the turret a tiny bit back so that it is hard to snipe with goons, make it so you can repair the turret easily. And soon after, make a depot to wall the far side of the nat entrance (depending on the map). Lets discuss the timing of when to get a turret in the main. If you know its dt, generally terrans hold off making a turret in the main. If no dt attack comes at the front door, the threat has developed to a possible dt drop, so now you make a turret in the main. If we rewind a bit though, sometimes (rare) if you know its dt for sure, you make a second turret at the nat further back, partly as backup, partly to bait the dt to commit to an attack. And lastly, sometimes terran will build a turret in his main or at the top of the ramp as insurance incase the dt sneaks into the main (by walking) or the nat turret is sniped, rather than relying on scrambling to build 3 turrets at once only when it has happened. So what Im saying is that even if you think its dts, even if you know its dts, you might still make a 2nd turret (a few moments after the first, and maybe in the main, even if ground dt and not expected dt drop). And another thing, a floated rax covering a turret in the nat is primarily to protect from a dt threat, I agree. But there is nothing wrong with protecting a turret in the same way vs a non dt build. So again its not concrete evidence of anything (but again its not too important). We shouldnt get hung up over what the player was thinking so much, and instead focus on what he knows for certain and what he should do as a result. OK so that covers all the things. Funnily enough, Sin had a chance to scout the robo with scv but instead of going to the main, he goes to the 6 o clock. He makes ebay after 2nd fac. He is in a great position when you compare the 2 build orders. After 2nd fac starts, the critical tech is first tank and siege mode. Terran can easily afford to start a turret at the nat simultaneously vs this protoss opening. Now back to what zimp wrote.
zimp wrote:The terrans both failed to identify the builds, prepare for the threats, and consequently lost their bunkers.
Well this could be worded a bit better because you don’t need to know what the P is doing in order to hold your bunker or not. Holding the bunker is dependent on watching how many goons are attacking it and repairing accordingly (and scv repair micro in general if the goons step in and snipe scvs etc). Whether P gets robo or dt is essentially a separate problem that comes later. To hold the goons off I think it is vital to get the full 4 marines and ofcourse not delay getting the tank with siege mode (when vs 2 gate core and 1 gate core). There is atleast 1 game where Midas skips getting siege mode vs a 1 gate core opening though (vs Perfectman). Note there are lots of games where Terrans skip getting a siege tank altogether and go straight into speed vults when it is a 1 gate no core expo opening or nexus first opening (and that is what I recommend vs those 2 builds). And as said earlier, TY was planning on blindly going for extreme econ cheese from the start, he sent his scv out after it finished bunker (it scouts a main but then stays there) in preparation to build a hidden expo which was started before his machine shop finished. I agree that he did fail to identify Jangbis build, but honestly in a way he wasn’t really trying to identify it, he was hoping it wouldn’t be too aggressive. So yes he absolutely did fail to prepare for the threats I agree! Is this what made him lose the bunker? Not really. He only had 2 marines in it because he was cutting corners so they didn’t do as much damage to the goons when they stepped in, so he lost more scv to goon fire, and he didn’t pull scv from his main to repair his bunker fast enough and possibly had cut some scv before this in order to make the early 3rd cc. But even if he had saved the bunker, the proxy robo would have been too much for him to handle. He would have lost the game during the shuttle bust attack even if the bunker hadnt gone down earlier. Sin lost his bunker because he didn’t scv repair micro well enough and his rax being temporarily lifted didn’t help. Its nothing to do with identifying the P build and preparing. The only preparation that might be needed is getting scv in position to repair in good time, and getting more scv to the nat if goons start sniping too many. You could argue both of those things are more about reactive micro than preparatory decisions though, it doesn’t really matter how we label. Sin could use a different wall in aswell. Something like these:
Zimp mentions that the first tank was a bit late, but I don’t think it was.
zimp wrote:I think that loosing the bunker is crucial if you don't have siege yet. Basicly most of the time it means loosing the game right there but even if you manage to block his goons with scvs until you have siege, you loose mining time and scvs and he will have an economical advantage (he can double expand safely).
Theres a moose loose aboot me hoose. Erm. Yeah anyway. I agree it’s a critical moment if the bunker goes down obviously and I agree that you can lose the game right there especially if you don’t make your next moves perfectly. I partly wrote that line because I often saw lower level players on iCCup give up too quickly when their bunker dies so I wanted to encourage against that. The siege tank with siege mode pops very soon after the bunker dies (unless you lose it way too early). Im talking about goon pressure here from 2 gate 6 goon and not yet assisted with extra tech. You should have a tank very soon after the bunker dies if playing semi decently and that is a workable situation, don’t give up. If vs 8 goons then that is really heavy pressure and if the bunker dies that is not anything to feel bad about in terms of you playing unacceptably badly. No if you lose the bunker vs 8 goons that’s because its very hard not to. But remember in this situation you just have to survive by retreating to the main and ofcourse try to save you nat cc and you are in the game. His expo is going to be very late and his probe count isnt necessarily way ahead of you. And you have got some critical tech now in siege mode so just keep going. On some maps Terran wont have to even retreat to his main. When T does have to retreat to the main, on many maps he should be able to re take his natural soon enough to still be in the game. Overall he can be either even, a tiny bit ahead, a bit behind, or very behind. On some maps its much harder to retake your nat. New Sniper Ridge is actually pretty hard to retake on that spawn. This is possibly partly why we see Sin tries to retake his nat very quickly and builds his turret immediately back at the nat because he is thinking if I don’t retake my nat quickly, then it will take too long for me to retake by using a safer slow method. You mention “They got lucky and the opponent went 1 rax exp”. I agree that 2 gate goon opening can smoothly lead into reactive aggression with a proximity robo or whatever. Id also say that some Terrans will be perfectly comfortable to see that P opened 2 gate goon, and some Protoss players will be indifferent if they scout a rax expo because rax expo is really bloody strong. Yes you will have to do some very good bunker repair micro and be precise with tank timing and positioning etc but if you can do so you are in a great position. From the Protoss point of view, 2 gate 6 goon opening is really nice when T opened 1 fac expo. But yeah, most Protoss are perfectly happy to see rax expo and will simply fire at the bunker with 6 goons for plenty of time, drawing out a lot of bunker repair costs and then will simply double expo behind those 6 goons. This is safe vs all rax expo variations, and is why 2 gate 6 goon is such a good build (1 of the top 3 goon openings; which are 3 goon expo, 1 goon expo or 2 gate 6 goon expo)
Sin loses the bunker and has to retreat to his main. You say Sin didn’t think of a robo. That’s a bit of a simplification, but when we are talking about bw we always are simplifying unfortunately. Lets break it down for fun. In very general terms, it is normal for Terran to build the turret at the nat first, then add turrets to the main or where appropriate as the threats develop. Sometimes a player will just place a few generic turrets over time as threats develop. You cant always read what a player is thinking by the placement and timing of his turrets. Also, we are kind of more concerned about what the player SHOULD be thinking. I agree though that with those spawn positions, if terran thought it was robo he might get turret in the main faster/at the same time as in the nat. Sin had scouted 6 o clock and not seen a proxy robo atleast though. So he knew if there was a robo simply built at home then he has a tiny bit more time. If he has scouted a proxy robo at the 6 o clock he would have been wise to build 3 turrets in his main at the perimeter first. The most important turret of those 3 is the one closer to the cliff overlooking the nat. These 3 turrets prevent the shuttle from entering the main or force it to take lots of damage if it commits. All 3 of these would be in quick succession. Terran wouldn’t need to make an anti dt turret in his nat, but he would shortly after make a turret at the back of his nat (anti drop). And I am perfectly happy if terran makes an extra turret or 2 in his main. A double turret on the cliff overlooking the nat is very nice vs full on proxy robo strats. In a slightly different scenario, if you find yourself facing a Protoss build order that gets speed shuttles, don’t be afraid to double up a turret at the back of the nat and at the bottom corner of the main, and have a surprise turret near the main cc, well inside the perimeter of turrets that you already made. Im calling it a 'surprise turret' but actually thats not a good name for it, just ignore that name, call it an inner turret or something. Back to the Sin vs Bisu game. Sin might consider the possibility of a robo at 9 o clock. If so you might expect him to make a turret at the nat or 2 (before any in the main). The turret position in this case might be closer to the back of the nat though. So yeah I agree that Sin probably didn’t think it was a proxy robo at 9 o clock. Its not important though. We have to simply look at what does Terran know for certain, and what should he do based on those facts, take the speculation out of it. Here is an important point (finally lol, Card you chat too much air). Sin might have been about to make a turret in his main. We cant know for certain if Sin was about to build a turret in his main blindly or not (or anywhere else in his base). This is because he comes under full attack from the goons at the front door. Ofcourse he is a progamer with lots of apm and he could prioritise making a turret in his main if he really wants to though. But the attack may have delayed him from placing a turret where he was going to. He has a chance to start a turret in his main (either on the ramp or near cc) after losing his nat but decides not to straight away. At this moment (having retreated his nat cc and sieged up on the cliff overlooking the nat) he also has a chance to start a turret next to his tank in his main. The fact that he doesnt start a turret there suggests he didn’t think a shuttle was coming to me (or atleast he hopes one isnt coming). He instead chooses to be risky and quickly retake his nat and rebuild a turret at his nat. If this was dt he probably would have died but he decided he was already losing and its worth the risk. As I mentioned before, this decision may have partly been influenced by how hard it is to retake the nat at that spawn so he wanted to attempt to do it quickly and riskily rather than slow and methodical which would probably wind up with him falling behind a bit too much. Another kind of interesting point; you will notice Sin does actually start a turret in his main (near the cc), and this is before the shuttle has been revealed. This suggests he is aware of a shuttle follow up at this timing and is concerned enough about that threat. Possibly he is concerned about a dt drop at this moment, we cant know for sure. When Sin lost his nat, he should have built a turret on his cliff next to his first siege tank (dual purpose guards against dt and shuttle). That to me is the most solid reaction.
I have a question for you zimp. What do you recommend a terran does vs protoss on (2)Niobe. Goliaths or pure tank and turrets? Niobe is the perfect map to challenge this theory because it has a lot of air space into the main, and a terran on 3 base equally has many challenges to solve regarding air space control etc. The map also has some pretty nasty buildable areas that proximity robo could be built.
zimp wrote:The following things are required: - You should know how to block the way into the main with buildings. Your whole building positions should be thought out in advance. (See end of post.) If you don't have a proper block, he can run in much easier because blocking with scvs only is much harder. - Prepare scvs for repair in advance. First 2-3, later 6-7-8 will be needed. Of course, as many scvs as dragoons. But don't wait for dragoons to come, move the workers close to the bunker before. - Definately make 4 marines. - You need to have the tank out with siege mode as soon as possible. Stop the scv production for it if you don't have enough money. He has to do the same, so you will still be ahead economically. The early tank is crucial. - There is a crucial moment where Protoss has 6-7 goons before Terrans first tank is out. Protoss can 1-shot a few scvs before his dragoons die to marine fire. You have to be extremely careful there to bring new scvs to repair the bunker. You can bring the unsieged tank too, but only if the building positions allow you to move it freely so it won't die. - Once the tank is out, you have to place it at just the right distance. Not so close that he can pick it out if he comes closer, but close enough so that the tank is in range of dragoons firing the bunker. - Once he retreated from the tank, don't pull all scvs to the minerals yet! Leave 2-3 close to the bunker until you have 2-3 tanks. He might be returning with more (3-4 gate units).
Again, lets see typical problems and solutions:
- you loose the bunker when too many dragoons attack it. -> watch the state of repair all the time. do every other action from hotkey or very fast. - you loose the bunker because he suprises you with a lot of dragoons and there are no scvs to repair. -> prepare scvs in advance, even if he doesnt attack. even if he backed, leave a few scvs at the bunker in case he returns for a new wave of attack. - he just walks by your bunker to the main. -> set up a proper wall of barracks+supply. you need to know in advance how to do it on different maps. you can now easily block the much more narrow way with scvs. - your first tank is too late. -> learn the build order properly. you will not have enough money because of the mass repair, so you need to halt scv production before the factory finishes, so you can immediately start the tank+siege. - you loose the first tank. -> don't attack him before siege, unless you are on high ground or he can't reach it properly. similarly, only siege up on high ground or at a safe distance back from the bunker and make sure that you can block with scvs if he tries to snipe.
I agree with all of this above, but note I have minor edited some bits. Also there is something. You mention ‘until you have 2-3 tanks’ which obviously implies you recommend getting atleast 3 tanks initially out of the facs. I agree with this. There is a very powerful build order where Terran gets only 1 siege tank, then gets vultures after rax expo. But if you are facing 2 gate 6 or more goon, I recommend don’t do this build. At the bare minimum get atleast 2 tanks first. Getting 3 tanks before switching to vulture is better than just 2 tanks in my opinion. And just being quite defensive and simply getting 5 or 7 tanks is totally fine and Im more than happy to recommend that. Choosing whether 3 or 5 or 7 tanks depends on how aggressive the Protoss is being. If you manage to scv scout a nexus being built after 6 goons you can switch to vultures safely much quicker, (so after 3 tanks if you want, but just getting 5-7 tanks is fine vs this Protoss opener still).
zimp wrote:Another way to hold a powergoon is to build an academy after the rax and research marine range. This is actually a valid 1rax FE variation.
Yes, it is used in a handful of games in modern games, and was played several times in the early days of rax expo, cheers Upmagic. But I don’t really want to get into it as it has not proven to be reliable. A vulnerability is early reaver. Still, it’s a fun thing to try.
zimp wrote:Now actually if you managed to hold the goons isn't game over yet because he can double expand or go robo/dt. So based on the info that your first, and second scout (that was out the whole time) gave you, you either should build turrets to stop the reaver/dt, or if he (double) expanded, you should go for a (3-)4 fact counter to win.
I agree if Terran holds he has not won the game yet by any means. Hopefully he has got ahead if everythings gone well, and can carry that advantage through for the rest of the game, but you are still going to have to everything properly as normal. The scv scouts cannot reliably give the information needed to know if it is dt or reaver (let alone double expo). If you haven’t seen, you must prepare for both tech threats a little bit. What I mean by that is vs 2 gate core: -(if you managed to scout the 2nd gate) make 2 fac then ebay then academy. (normally vs 1 gate core expo you can make 2 fac then academy then ebay). (if vs 1 gate core and you haven’t scouted an expo you must make ebay after 1 fac). -Make a turret in the nat (vs dt). -As the threats develop (time passes and nothing has been seen) you can add 2 more turrets (1 at cliff near ramp, 1 near main cc). This is my generic advice for a catch all strategy. I do not agree with “should” go for a 3-4 fac attack if Protoss double expanded. Yes it is a powerful option and can easily be successful. But generally its always better to make a 3rd cc and play for the long game. Protoss is capable of double expanding after 2 gate 6 goon and holding any 1 rax fe mid game attack. Not saying it will easy, but it is a standard build order for a reason. Secondly, it can be hard to even reliably scout that he went double expo in time to reactively go 4 fac. If scv is sniped then you have to make vultures earlier to scout it (this would be the after 3 tanks variation). But often you should be making your 3rd cc inbase (before armoury then 2nd gas) ‘blindly’. To reactively go to 4 fac attack is not easy. The better way to decide whether to reactively go 4 fac attack is if you sniped several goons and took little damage in the process. Lastly, I will just quickly mention if you took lots of damage, and you are on a map where the 3rd base is hard to take, it might be best to go to 3, even 4 fac on 2 base before 3rd cc anyway and not attack (so it wouldn’t be a reactive aggressive response, it would either be standard or reactive defensive response).
Lastly, I don’t actually recommend building your first depot and rax at the nat. I prefer the style where you depot, rax, depot all in your main, then make cc at the nat, then float the rax to the nat.
zimp wrote:But it isn't always so easy to find the robo, here's another Mong fpview where he screwed up to find it in time.
No, see again I don’t like the wording and it matters. Mong didn’t screw up finding the robo in time. You cannot reliably scout a proxy robo. What you can rely on is either seeing a nexus or not. If you haven’t seen a nexus, you have to prepare for 1 base robo and 1 base dt until proven otherwise. So yeah its true that Mong didn’t scout the proxy robo (though note he did see the pylon, but that doesn’t indicate a definite proxy robo). But Mongs mistake was not building ebay after 1 fac. I know that you know all this, we just gotta word it right.
Hmm, perhaps its worth doing a full analysis of turret placement and order assuming you have minimum scouting information. This would be useful for me to get a second opinion on anyway. So lets imagine a scenario where you have not scouted a nexus and it seems to be 1 gate core. You must build ebay after 1 fac. We then don’t manage to scout any tech. So we have to make a turret at the nat to protect vs dt. Unfortunately, spawn positions and map layout come into play next. If we were to know the location of a proxy robo then we could make turrets in the appropriate places first. But in this scenario we are blind. So the next place to make a turret is at the cliff overlooking the nat and my latest advice is to also make one near the main cc. This last turret can sometimes get sniped really quickly and is therefore rubbish but my latest advice is to build it still. The other option is to do a full 5 turret perimeter instead. Yes once a shuttle has been revealed, choosing where to make the next turret depends on where the shuttle is and what the P is doing with it and all sorts of variables. I have a feeling someone is going to say making turrets blindly is costly and very situational etc. OK, but we are talking about a situation where P is possibly 1 base ‘all in’ and so making 3 generic turrets is affordable and is a good move. And I feel someone will be thinking oh but if the Protoss does X you need turrets here first, and if P does Y you need turrets there first etc. OK, but again this is a situation where we are trying to be safe vs both types of tech and all other threats, and we ‘don’t know what direction he is coming from’ even with the spawn information.
If it was reaver and we did the 3 turret option, then we have vulnerabilities that Protoss may exploit. Skip academy for now, make the extra turrets then get armoury after a bit (5 tanks). Terran will need to, ah man there are so many variables, how am I meant to approach this haha. Im in massive danger of oversimplifying so maybe just ask questions if anyone has one. If it was dt then we are locked down, get academy, and flip to vultures with upgrades ‘sooner’. If it turns out to be dt drop, we should be good too but be aware that dts can snipe the turret near the main cc quickly. So really we should have units nearby to react fast enough and do enough damage. If the turret dies, we have scans coming soon enough and can also go into scramble mode where you start 3 turrets at once all around the main cc but spaced apart to make it hard for the Protoss player to shut down all 3 from finishing. And we will start getting vults if we aren’t already. If its goon ferry with reaver follow up then this is always going to be tricky. We are using scv, tank, marine to trap and the kill the goons quickly. Some terrans make vultures, they really are crap in this situation, make tanks! (even if they are slower to build and it seems like you are vulnerable with low unit count, tanks are higher quality vs goons, but you must respect the goons and use scv to screen properly) Im just going to spout some generic tips. Dont waste tanks, if they have been hit by a reaver shot, sometimes what you can do is pretend its dead and retreat it somewhere safe and repair, rather than just getting 1 more unsieged shot vs the reaver and losing the tank in the process. Don’t put a tank into siege mode unless it is near a turret. This is such a lame tip because there are situations where it is good to do so. But if we just say don’t siege up unless near a turret with full health then that is ok for now. Don’t desperately try to save a turret that is a bit further out if you cant get there in time. Just let it die, the reaver will kill it, and by the time you have got there it will be dead and now you are vulnerable to the reaver shots. Stay back at the primary defense points (turret 1, 2 and 3). It is actually possible to overmicro in these situations. Just be calm, ok it is a reaver. Concentrate on making sure scv are safe, and just let the reaver shoot buildings a bit rather than you lose tanks. As number of tanks builds it becomes very quickly much much easier to deal with. Don’t desperately try to build a turret right where the reaver is. (again all these tips are so generic its almost not useful perhaps but whatever). By all means start a turret where the shuttle is near but if its not working (he drops and snipes the scv), sometimes it is best to just let the Protoss have that area for a moment. If the P gets 2 reavers, be extra careful with tanks and timing when you siege up. Once (if) you have mines and vults, prioritise planting the mines in good spots rather than using the vults to attack the reaver, its so frustrating if a vult dies without planting any mines. Im sure people will disagree with half of those tips but oh well.
Ive written way too much about things that aren’t very important, and it’s a bit of a garbled mess Im afraid but I want to be rid of this now so I will post Im going to post some axiom Terran build orders for the 3 matchups soon that will hopefully be a bit more useful and interesting. And shorter!
I read your entire post, but i will not continue with analyzing the matches as i would have to rewatch everything and reread everything precisely and it takes too much time. We kinda agree on most things, not on all though. Maybe i didn't write clearly enough in some things. Anyway, i have a sense that you are a bit overly safe and defensive, not willing to take risks. Maybe i'm wrong. We are human. I know you know, but progamers take a lot of risks. I think often they make a guess at the opponent's build, and they play accordingly. Also i think Sea said it somewhere that if you turret defend your base while the P doesn't tech and goes for a third base instead, you get into such an economical disadvantage that you will lose (one O, got it).
On August 21 2016 10:46 CardinalAllin wrote: I have a question for you zimp. What do you recommend a terran does vs protoss on (2)Niobe. Goliaths or pure tank and turrets? Niobe is the perfect map to challenge this theory because it has a lot of air space into the main, and a terran on 3 base equally has many challenges to solve regarding air space control etc. The map also has some pretty nasty buildable areas that proximity robo could be built.
I haven't played this map and i haven't even seen it in BW, so i'm not sure i can judge from a picture, but the main doesn't seem that big (like tau cross left and bottom position for example). So I'd pick the turrets and tanks, as below:
Again, maybe this doesn't cover it fully and the reaver has space to get in, then one more should be necessary as in your picture, but i would build all the turrets all the way to the edges (i know you made it for a scenario where you build the first 3 first for optional dt, so i modified it for a scenario where you know it's reaver).
We shouldn't forget though that the P can't see the turret's position, so they won't surely find the entry spots, even if there are some. Similarly, against recall, some pros don't turret the entire edge of the main, but they take a risk and mine only the spots where they expect the recall, ofthen resulting in prophet-like wins.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GtH5nK9.jpg)
zimp![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0Gvcn5g.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/jKtueFV.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/UUIztWz.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/YD4gIcd.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/MeHhqau.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wSP7W9f.png)
