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! [G] 2on2 For Dummies (Youtube Channel)

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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Valio
Profile Joined March 2009
Finland77 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-30 01:35:10
June 01 2009 09:05 GMT
#1
EDIT: I've reached the A- rank 3 times in a row now using the accounts
http://www.iccup.com/gamingprofile/ig.valio.html
http://www.iccup.com/gamingprofile/ifu.valio.html
http://www.iccup.com/gamingprofile/ut)valio.html (this one doesn't have seasons statistics for some reason)


Okay so my school just ended and i had some time to record more vods and I've updated my youtube channel.

Some ppl requested for some zerg fpvods so i just recorded a game yesterday.

The channel is not for ppl who have passed B rank on 2on2, its aimed towards D - C+ ranks mainly just to give them some idea about the basic builds etc.

Some of the videos are 2 seasons old and I must say that my skill has increased a lot after that.

Heres my iccup profile: http://www.iccup.com/gamingprofile/ifu.valio.html
Heres my utube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/2on2forDummies

Just to keep the channel alive :p
Enjoy or not.
Why are the pirates called pirates? Because they YARRRRrrrr!!
CharlieMurphy
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
United States22895 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-06-01 10:18:31
June 01 2009 10:09 GMT
#2
cool, english needs some work though ofc.

edit- lol @ teal discing in the ZZ v ZP
..and then I would, ya know, check em'. (Aka SpoR)
Valio
Profile Joined March 2009
Finland77 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-06-01 10:44:04
June 01 2009 10:43 GMT
#3
On June 01 2009 19:09 CharlieMurphy wrote:
cool, english needs some work though ofc.

edit- lol @ teal discing in the ZZ v ZP


Ah i think its a bug. I heard my frends asking me why i disc in a friendly game between frends. It sometimes happens when u just do alt + q + q

Edit: just uploading a zp vs zt @ hannibal
Why are the pirates called pirates? Because they YARRRRrrrr!!
pRo9aMeR
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
595 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-06-01 11:48:27
June 01 2009 11:38 GMT
#4
I hope I'm not one of your 2v2 opponents....

great HD quality btw
In training...let's play, gg! d^..^b
Valio
Profile Joined March 2009
Finland77 Posts
June 01 2009 11:52 GMT
#5
thanks o-o
Why are the pirates called pirates? Because they YARRRRrrrr!!
Valio
Profile Joined March 2009
Finland77 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-06-01 12:46:57
June 01 2009 12:22 GMT
#6
the zp vs zt @hannibal is now uploaded and its still processing. It is A A- vs A A+ or so

star.dj + ifu.valio vs imbabo + esc.drewbie

here:
Why are the pirates called pirates? Because they YARRRRrrrr!!
peanutter
Profile Joined February 2009
Australia165 Posts
June 01 2009 13:57 GMT
#7
nice work... really helpful to newbie 2v2 players like me
hcliff454
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada127 Posts
June 01 2009 19:54 GMT
#8
haha I saw someone subbed to this yt channel, and I thought it was how-to porn.
Well, I guess it kind of is, in a sense.
anyway, thanks
dworn it -lz
NonFactor
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sweden698 Posts
June 02 2009 04:27 GMT
#9
Thank you! Really helpful.
PH
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States6173 Posts
June 02 2009 07:02 GMT
#10
Awesome, I love playing 2v2s, and definitely want to get better at it.

Subscribed. I'll actually watch some of the videos when I don't have a term paper working its way up my ass. (:
Hello
ccou
Profile Joined December 2008
United States681 Posts
June 12 2009 21:56 GMT
#11
What other maps have stacked minerals?
Wake up Mr. B!
LuMiX
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
China5757 Posts
June 12 2009 22:12 GMT
#12
fastest map possible iirc.
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25978 Posts
June 20 2009 15:01 GMT
#13
Added to recommended threads. Thank you.
Moderator
Leath
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
Canada1724 Posts
June 25 2009 03:04 GMT
#14
First, I wanna say thanks for doing this. It is very nice of you, and about what I was looking for.

However, I find the videos are not very helpful
They are very descriptive rather than explicative.
I would really appreciate if you could explain as to why one strategy is more likely to succeed than another?

For instance, I saw a PZ v PZ game in Hannibal CJ vs eStro where zergs go 2-3 hatcheries mass lings, and protoss 3 stargates corsairs.
Since, both pro gamers did this build, they must have studied it. Why should it work? How would they adapt if the opponent protoss decided to go for 2 gates/archon?

Same thing in your first video? Why did your partner go dropship to escape the cannon contain and not siege tank? Was it to make a surprise timing attack? Why did he go MnM rather than tech?
When should terran choose tech vs PZ rather than Marines Medic?
Thanks in advance. =)
http://www.kongregate.com/?referrer=Sagess
doktorLucifer
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States855 Posts
June 25 2009 04:27 GMT
#15
You can tech vs. PZ when you think T can either defend from initial ling (ling-tight wall in, some positions will allow fact-wall, if that helps) or the ally Z sends initial lings to buy time for T.

The problem with tech against PZ is if you decide to use gols for their anti air, you can't be caught without your Z ally's support, or you can get raped by zeals/goons.

What I've learned from my scrub level 2:2 games. =(
Star.Dj
Profile Joined August 2007
United States71 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-06-26 05:30:20
June 25 2009 07:07 GMT
#16
Haha there's a replay of me winning a game here!

@Leath
I know you were directing those towards Valio but since I'm here I'll try to help answer as well.

In regards to your first question.. Hannibal is a PZ paradise, TZ graveyard. Because of the low mineral count and ability to get an extremely fast second gas AND having a ramp (unlike vampire), Protoss is able to dominate all. Without the ramp, corsairs wouldn't be possible.

Here is why the corsair/ling build is the best option in PZ PZ:
Lets say Team1 Protoss makes Corsairs, Team1 Zerg lings.
If Team2 Protoss makes no corsairs and Team2's Zerg makes mutalisks..

Team1 has complete air control. Team2 Zerg (who does not have corsair support) takes massive overlord losses throughout the game. Team2 Zerg's mutalisks have no effect what so ever because they are eaten in seconds against a massive corsair fleet. Scourges can't even get close to the corsairs. So now Team2 Zerg is rendered useless and has no supply to make anything. Using only corsairs, Team1 Protoss manages to keep Team2 Zerg completely controlled.

Now we have Team2 Protoss and Team1 Zerg. Knowing that Team2 Zerg is useless, Team1 Zerg can pretty much do whatever he wants, including muta. Muta + Corsair would ultimately finish the helpless Team2 Zerg. Because Hannibal mains have ramp entrances, it is very easy to defend and tech. Not only that, but the creep from a starting hatchery alone enables one to place a sunken which can reach your ramp.

When both Protoss make corsairs (which they should), both Zergs must make zerglings to counter the other and stay alive.


I hope that helps answer your first question. Now for the second question about cannon contain in TZ PZ..

Team1 Terran going marine/medic, Team2 protoss 2 gate-> cannon contain T, Team2 Zerg 9 pool speed->2nd hatch.

The build described for Team2 is a commonly used cannon contain build. The Protoss uses 2 gate with Team2 Zerg's 9 pool in order to ensure map control. After neutralizing any roaming lings(usually only when Team1 Zerg uses 9pool or overpool), Team2 will move to zealot block Team1 Zerg's ramp/entrance. As this is happening, the Protoss will begin to cannon at Team1's natural.

Here are methods to counter cannon contain:


A. Prevention
1.) If Team1 Zerg uses 9pool.
This is best when Team1's Zerg is particularly good with zergling control. 9 pool is ultimately a risk vs reward strategy. If it fails to do any damage or does not create any openings for Terran to attack you will most likely lose the game. However, a well maneuvered 9 pool can force Team2 to play defensively, not offensively. In that case you don't have to worry about cannon containment at all and continue to play the game normally. If they do attempt to cannon though, it is possible that Team1 Zerg, with some deception, may escape Team2 Zerg's coverage and gets to the cannons with enough time to neutralize them with the help of his ally's marines (a few SCVs if needed). By now it is likely that Team1 Zerg is zealot contained which means Team2 still has map control.

2.) If they do not defend the warping cannons or do not do so sufficiently and Team1 Zerg is 12pool.
If the TZ team is good they will know a PZ team is cannoning. If there are not enough units from Team2 (usually zerglings and possibly left over zealots) defending the cannons while they are warping in, Team1 Terran will be able to come out with his first few marines/some SCVS (if needed). If the Terran is able to do this, Team1 has gained an advantage. No matter what Team2 does next, they must push their tech back or risk defeat.

Some things Team2 may try after situations 1.) and 2.) and Team1's counters to them:

a. Team2 continues massing zerglings to keep Team1 Terran in his base longer (they do not rebuild cannons so Team2 Protoss does not have any slower tech timing). This is buying Team2 time for templar tech or to mass dragoons/get dragoon range. This is beneficial for Team1 Zerg in the race to mutalisks because Team2 Zerg is investing in zerglings. In this case, Team1 Terran needs to only build up enough m&m force before he can move out. The cannon contain problem was prevented and the game progresses as normal.

b. Team2 replaces cannons, continues teching (no additional basic units). This pushes Team2 Protoss's tech timing back especially if he was unable to cancel the original cannons. Keep in mind that Team2 Protoss already has delayed timing because of his original cannon containment. Even with Team2 Protoss having even further slowed timing, Team1 Terran is still cannon contained.

B. Cannons are up, Team1 Terran is contained.
1.) Breaking cannon contain with basic units.
This is the fastest method for getting rid of the cannon menace, though it will not be possible, or rather worthwhile if the PZ team is strong and covers all their bases. Now there are two ways to do this: Terran goes alone or he goes with his Zerg ally. Team1 Terran should be using 4 barracks and no tech for this to work best. In order for the Team1 Zerg to help with this method he would have had to of at least 12 pooled. Team1 Zerg would have to break out from his zealot contain which should be possible with 12 pool 2 hatch. Using either only zerglings, a good drone drill, or a sunken, Team1 Zerg can break out. That alone is help for Team1 Terran. With Team1 Zerg's zerglings now roaming the map, any units from Team2 assisting the cannons will be pulled back. With a few firebat shields leading the way and a drugged up mob of marines close behind, Team1 Terran should be able to roll over 3-5 cannons on his own but may take some heavy losses. To reduce losses or to deal with more cannons with only bionic, Team1 Zerg's zergling assistance is required. If he is out massing Team2 Zerg at this point he should be able to go straight to the cannons with little trouble. If that is not the case then some deception may be required to slip by Team2's units and race them to the cannons. Even if Team1 Zerg loses most zerglings to the cannons, its not a problem. The bionic force that has now been freed will melt any zergling force that gets in its way. From here here the game can either be ended (if one player of Team2 is not sufficiently defended they will fall to a swift counter) or the game can continue more conservatively if Team2's defenses are in check.

2.) Breaking cannon contain with a siege tank and using drop ships.
Making a siege tank to break the contain has its advantages and disadvantages. The biggest advantage perhaps is that Team1 Terran risks losing 0 units to break out. Another advantage is that Team1 Zerg is not needed to help with the break out. This means that the Team1 Zerg (who is likely zealot contained) can simply focus on getting to lair with a strong economy. The biggest disadvantage is it may potentially take a decent amount of time to break out. In order for this to work best, Team1 Terran MUST know the cannons are being built at a relatively early stage. How? Simple. Either with an overlord or an SCV, Team1 first needs to see a forge being built after Team2 Protoss is pumping 2 gate zealots, but before he gases. This is not the only thing Team1 must see though! It is also very common for Protoss to cannon defend his Zerg ally using the same build order. To determine which style Team2 is using as quick as possible, Team1 must see Team2 Zerg's base. If Team2 Zerg has a pylon being built at his base or if Team2 Zerg has a lair is being built directly after 9pool or directly after 9pool speed (no second hatchery) then it is clear that Team1 Terran will not be cannon contained. The sooner Team1 figures out that there IS or WILL BE a cannon contain, the better. The best situation for Team1 is that they scout Team2 Zerg making a second hatchery (not lair or gas mining) and Team2 Protoss making 2 gate forge (no gas). At this point Team1 Terran can start gas more quickly than usual. If the Terran has a ling proof block it makes it much easier to do this being as less marines/no bunkers are required. If there is no way to block off the ramp then it is (in my opinion) best to have a bunker placed well within your sim city base. Without a bunker, more marines are required and Team1 Terran may face some damage after Team1 Zerg is zealot blocked. After the gas is started, the next tech to be built is a factory (skipping academy for the time being). Once the factory is up, there are a few different ways to go. Team1 Terran may proceed straight to creating a siege tank (always make siege upgrade first since it takes longer). This is possibly the best route to take if Team2 is dragoon/mass zergling after the cannon contain, especially if Team1 Zerg does not have a ramp hatchery to better defend against ranged dragoons. Team1 Terran would also need to add 2 barracks for a total of 4 as well as the factory to best combat the goon/ling army. If Team2 Protoss is teching to DT after the cannon contain (most standard) and/or if Team1 Zerg has secured a ramp hatchery, other options open up with dropships.

a. Team1 Zerg has a ramp hatchery and Team2 is dragoon/zergling, Team1 Terran may proceed to straight to dropship tech (skipping siege tanks for the time being). A quick drop straight to either the enemy Zerg or Protoss could inflict a lot of damage. If Team1 share close positions (12 2 on python or 12 1 on gaia for example), Team1 may not even need a ramp hatchery. It may be the plan of Team2 to contain Team1 Terran so they then may kill Team1 Zerg using ranged goons/zerglings (especially if Team1 Zerg did not take the ramp hatchery). This strategy attempt can be shut down by Team1 in this instance when the Terran quickly transfers his army to Team1 Zerg's base by use of the dropship(s). After Team1 Zerg is safe, using 2 dropships Team1 Terran may severely damage either of Team2's players. And the game progresses on..

b. Team2 Protoss is teching straight to templar tech after the cannon contain. Team1 Terran may tech straight to dropship (skipping siege tank) and have no worries about his ally dying. A quick drop may prove fatal to Team2 Zerg at this point, possibly killing a spire or lair (Team1 Zerg's mutalisks will be needed if Team2 Zerg has them already) and at the very least a number of drone casualties. With proper micro from Team1 Terran and a low zergling count from Team2 Zerg, it may take Team2 Protoss's dark templars to clean up the drop. Either way, Team1 Zerg should have a mutalisk advantage over Team2 Zerg at this point. Mutalisks alone, or accompanied by another marine drop should allow Team1 to kill or severely cripple Team2 Zerg.

c. Team2 Protoss is teching straight to templar tech after the cannon contain. Team1 Terran first makes a quick siege tank to begin breaking the contain. Team2 soon expects a Terran ball to emerge after the cannons are destroyed. BUT! While the siege tank was firing away, Team1 Terran proceeded to dropship tech. This in many instances catches Team2 off guard as a dropship & mutalisk force enter the Team2 Zerg's base (or a poorly defended Protoss's).


There are a lot of other circumstantial details that I could get into, but if I don't stop myself I'll be describing every possible way a TZ PZ match could play out.
Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
June 25 2009 07:13 GMT
#17
This is really nice. I miss 2v2 in the proleague

Please continue this
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
HeavOnEarth
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States7087 Posts
June 25 2009 07:36 GMT
#18
On June 01 2009 19:43 Valio wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 01 2009 19:09 CharlieMurphy wrote:
cool, english needs some work though ofc.

edit- lol @ teal discing in the ZZ v ZP


Ah i think its a bug. I heard my frends asking me why i disc in a friendly game between frends. It sometimes happens when u just do alt + q + q

Edit: just uploading a zp vs zt @ hannibal

It is a bug. Sometimes when a player leaves, usually a router conflict(?), the lag screen appears for the rest of the players.
"come korea next time... FXO house... 10 korean, 10 korean"
Leath
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
Canada1724 Posts
June 26 2009 00:34 GMT
#19
On June 25 2009 16:07 Star.Dj wrote:
Big quote
+ Show Spoiler +

Haha there's a replay of me winning a game here!

@Leath
I know you were directing those towards Valio but since I'm here I'll try to help answer as well.

In regards to your first question.. Hannibal is a PZ paradise, TZ graveyard. Because of the low mineral count and ability to get an extremely fast second gas AND having a ramp (unlike vampire), Protoss is able to dominate all. Without the ramp, corsairs wouldn't be possible.

Here is why the corsair/ling build is the best option in PZ PZ:
Lets say Team1 Protoss makes Corsairs, Team1 Zerg lings.
If Team2 Protoss makes no corsairs and Team2's Zerg makes mutalisks..

Team1 has complete air control. Team2 Zerg (who does not have corsair support) takes massive overlord losses throughout the game. Team2 Zerg's mutalisks have no effect what so ever because they are eaten in seconds against a massive corsair fleet. Scourges can't even get close to the corsairs. So now Team2 Zerg is rendered useless and has no supply to make anything. Using only corsairs, Team1 Protoss manages to keep Team2 Zerg completely controlled.

Now we have Team2 Protoss and Team1 Zerg. Knowing that Team2 Zerg is useless, Team1 Zerg can pretty much do whatever he wants, including muta. Muta + Corsair would ultimately finish the helpless Team2 Zerg. Because Hannibal mains have ramp entrances, it is very easy to defend and tech. Not only that, but the creep from a starting hatchery alone enables one to place a sunken which can reach your ramp.

When both Protoss make corsairs (which they should), both Zergs must make zerglings to counter the other and stay alive.


I hope that helps answer your first question. Now for the second question about cannon contain in TZ PZ..

Team1 Terran going marine/medic, Team2 protoss 2 gate-> cannon contain T, Team2 Zerg 9 pool speed->2nd hatch.

The build described for Team2 is a commonly used cannon contain build. The Protoss uses 2 gate with Team2 Zerg's 9 pool in order to ensure map control. After neutralizing any roaming lings(usually only when Team1 Zerg uses 9pool or overpool), Team2 will move to zealot block Team1 Zerg's ramp/entrance. As this is happening, the Protoss will begin to cannon at Team1's natural.

Here are methods to counter cannon contain:


A. Prevention
1.) If Team1 Zerg uses 9pool.
This is best when Team1's Zerg is particularly good with zergling control. 9 pool is ultimately a risk vs reward strategy. If it fails to do any damage or does not create any openings for Terran to attack you will most likely lose the game. However, a well maneuvered 9 pool can force Team2 to play defensively, not offensively. In that case you don't have to worry about cannon containment at all and continue to play the game normally. If they do attempt to cannon though, it is possible that Team1 Zerg, with some deception, may escape Team2 Zerg's coverage and gets to the cannons with enough time to neutralize them with the help of his ally's marines (a few SCVs if needed). By now it is likely that Team1 Zerg is zealot contained which means Team2 still has map control.

2.) If they do not defend the warping cannons or do not do so sufficiently and Team1 Zerg is 12pool.
If the TZ team is good they will know a PZ team is cannoning. If there are not enough units from Team2 (usually zerglings and possibly left over zealots) defending the cannons while they are warping in, Team1 Terran will be able to come out with his first few marines/some SCVS (if needed). If the Terran is able to do this, Team1 has gained an advantage. No matter what Team2 does next, they must push their tech back or risk defeat.

Some things Team2 may try after situations 1.) and 2.) and Team1's counters to them:

a. Team2 continues massing zerglings to keep Team1 Terran in his base longer (they do not rebuild cannons so Team2 Protoss does not have any slower tech timing). This is buying Team2 time for templar tech or to mass dragoons/get dragoon range. This is beneficial for Team1 Zerg in the race to mutalisks because Team2 Zerg is investing in zerglings. In this case, Team1 Terran needs to only build up enough m&m force before he can move out. The cannon contain problem was prevented and the game progresses as normal.

b. Team2 replaces cannons, continues teching (no additional basic units). This pushes Team2 Protoss's tech timing back especially if he was unable to cancel the original cannons. Keep in mind that Team2 Protoss already has delayed timing because of his original cannon containment. Even with Team2 Protoss having even further slowed timing, Team1 Terran is still cannon contained.

B. Cannons are up, Team1 Terran is contained.
1.) Breaking cannon contain with basic units.
This is the fastest method for getting rid of the cannon menace, though it will not be possible, or rather worthwhile if the PZ team is strong and covers all their bases. Now there are two ways to do this: Terran goes alone or he goes with his Zerg ally. Team1 Terran should be using 4 barracks and no tech for this to work best. In order for the Team1 Zerg to help with this method he would have had to of at least 12 pooled. Team1 Zerg would have to break out from his zealot contain which should be possible with 12 pool 2 hatch. Using either only zerglings, a good drone drill, or a sunken, Team1 Zerg can break out. That alone is help for Team1 Terran. With Team1 Zerg's zerglings now roaming the map, any units from Team2 assisting the cannons will be pulled back. With a few firebat shields leading the way and a drugged up mob of marines close behind, Team1 Terran should be able to roll over 3-5 cannons on his own but may take some heavy losses. To reduce losses or to deal with more cannons with only bionic, Team1 Zerg's zergling assistance is required. If he is out massing Team2 Zerg at this point he should be able to go straight to the cannons with little trouble. If that is not the case then some deception may be required to slip by Team2's units and race them to the cannons. Even if Team1 Zerg loses most zerglings to the cannons, its not a problem. The bionic force that has now been freed will melt any zergling force that gets in its way. From here here the game can either be ended (if one player of Team2 is not sufficiently defended they will fall to a swift counter) or the game can continue more conservatively if Team2's defenses are in check.

2.) .. so much more to write, I'll get to it

edit: and I noticed how detailed I'm getting with this when this thread is about 2:2 for "dummies".Maybe I should move it to another thread


Whoa! Thanks, George!!! You rock! :D
Exceeded my expectations with the awesome reply =)
http://www.kongregate.com/?referrer=Sagess
Star.Dj
Profile Joined August 2007
United States71 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-06-26 05:57:03
June 26 2009 05:35 GMT
#20
On June 26 2009 09:34 Leath wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 25 2009 16:07 Star.Dj wrote:
Big quote
+ Show Spoiler +

Haha there's a replay of me winning a game here!

@Leath
I know you were directing those towards Valio but since I'm here I'll try to help answer as well.

In regards to your first question.. Hannibal is a PZ paradise, TZ graveyard. Because of the low mineral count and ability to get an extremely fast second gas AND having a ramp (unlike vampire), Protoss is able to dominate all. Without the ramp, corsairs wouldn't be possible.

Here is why the corsair/ling build is the best option in PZ PZ:
Lets say Team1 Protoss makes Corsairs, Team1 Zerg lings.
If Team2 Protoss makes no corsairs and Team2's Zerg makes mutalisks..

Team1 has complete air control. Team2 Zerg (who does not have corsair support) takes massive overlord losses throughout the game. Team2 Zerg's mutalisks have no effect what so ever because they are eaten in seconds against a massive corsair fleet. Scourges can't even get close to the corsairs. So now Team2 Zerg is rendered useless and has no supply to make anything. Using only corsairs, Team1 Protoss manages to keep Team2 Zerg completely controlled.

Now we have Team2 Protoss and Team1 Zerg. Knowing that Team2 Zerg is useless, Team1 Zerg can pretty much do whatever he wants, including muta. Muta + Corsair would ultimately finish the helpless Team2 Zerg. Because Hannibal mains have ramp entrances, it is very easy to defend and tech. Not only that, but the creep from a starting hatchery alone enables one to place a sunken which can reach your ramp.

When both Protoss make corsairs (which they should), both Zergs must make zerglings to counter the other and stay alive.


I hope that helps answer your first question. Now for the second question about cannon contain in TZ PZ..

Team1 Terran going marine/medic, Team2 protoss 2 gate-> cannon contain T, Team2 Zerg 9 pool speed->2nd hatch.

The build described for Team2 is a commonly used cannon contain build. The Protoss uses 2 gate with Team2 Zerg's 9 pool in order to ensure map control. After neutralizing any roaming lings(usually only when Team1 Zerg uses 9pool or overpool), Team2 will move to zealot block Team1 Zerg's ramp/entrance. As this is happening, the Protoss will begin to cannon at Team1's natural.

Here are methods to counter cannon contain:


A. Prevention
1.) If Team1 Zerg uses 9pool.
This is best when Team1's Zerg is particularly good with zergling control. 9 pool is ultimately a risk vs reward strategy. If it fails to do any damage or does not create any openings for Terran to attack you will most likely lose the game. However, a well maneuvered 9 pool can force Team2 to play defensively, not offensively. In that case you don't have to worry about cannon containment at all and continue to play the game normally. If they do attempt to cannon though, it is possible that Team1 Zerg, with some deception, may escape Team2 Zerg's coverage and gets to the cannons with enough time to neutralize them with the help of his ally's marines (a few SCVs if needed). By now it is likely that Team1 Zerg is zealot contained which means Team2 still has map control.

2.) If they do not defend the warping cannons or do not do so sufficiently and Team1 Zerg is 12pool.
If the TZ team is good they will know a PZ team is cannoning. If there are not enough units from Team2 (usually zerglings and possibly left over zealots) defending the cannons while they are warping in, Team1 Terran will be able to come out with his first few marines/some SCVS (if needed). If the Terran is able to do this, Team1 has gained an advantage. No matter what Team2 does next, they must push their tech back or risk defeat.

Some things Team2 may try after situations 1.) and 2.) and Team1's counters to them:

a. Team2 continues massing zerglings to keep Team1 Terran in his base longer (they do not rebuild cannons so Team2 Protoss does not have any slower tech timing). This is buying Team2 time for templar tech or to mass dragoons/get dragoon range. This is beneficial for Team1 Zerg in the race to mutalisks because Team2 Zerg is investing in zerglings. In this case, Team1 Terran needs to only build up enough m&m force before he can move out. The cannon contain problem was prevented and the game progresses as normal.

b. Team2 replaces cannons, continues teching (no additional basic units). This pushes Team2 Protoss's tech timing back especially if he was unable to cancel the original cannons. Keep in mind that Team2 Protoss already has delayed timing because of his original cannon containment. Even with Team2 Protoss having even further slowed timing, Team1 Terran is still cannon contained.

B. Cannons are up, Team1 Terran is contained.
1.) Breaking cannon contain with basic units.
This is the fastest method for getting rid of the cannon menace, though it will not be possible, or rather worthwhile if the PZ team is strong and covers all their bases. Now there are two ways to do this: Terran goes alone or he goes with his Zerg ally. Team1 Terran should be using 4 barracks and no tech for this to work best. In order for the Team1 Zerg to help with this method he would have had to of at least 12 pooled. Team1 Zerg would have to break out from his zealot contain which should be possible with 12 pool 2 hatch. Using either only zerglings, a good drone drill, or a sunken, Team1 Zerg can break out. That alone is help for Team1 Terran. With Team1 Zerg's zerglings now roaming the map, any units from Team2 assisting the cannons will be pulled back. With a few firebat shields leading the way and a drugged up mob of marines close behind, Team1 Terran should be able to roll over 3-5 cannons on his own but may take some heavy losses. To reduce losses or to deal with more cannons with only bionic, Team1 Zerg's zergling assistance is required. If he is out massing Team2 Zerg at this point he should be able to go straight to the cannons with little trouble. If that is not the case then some deception may be required to slip by Team2's units and race them to the cannons. Even if Team1 Zerg loses most zerglings to the cannons, its not a problem. The bionic force that has now been freed will melt any zergling force that gets in its way. From here here the game can either be ended (if one player of Team2 is not sufficiently defended they will fall to a swift counter) or the game can continue more conservatively if Team2's defenses are in check.

2.) .. so much more to write, I'll get to it

edit: and I noticed how detailed I'm getting with this when this thread is about 2:2 for "dummies".Maybe I should move it to another thread


Whoa! Thanks, George!!! You rock! :D
Exceeded my expectations with the awesome reply =)


While it did make me chuckle, I think that you should know I'm DJ, not George George is my partner in crime aka Shad0ws-

Anyway I completed my cannon-contain-countering write up for now, but if there are any other questions feel free to ask.

edit: I just read your question about the when to mech/bio vs PZ. In my opinion its more of a personal preference. Marines & medics tend to be potentially the strongest option, though. Some might say its circumstantial depending on the map but in all honesty I think that each map has advantages/disadvantages for mech and bio. For example.. if it is a map with a lot of gas Protoss can get a lottttt of templars. Maps like Vampire and Hannibal prove to be extreme problems for any TZ team against a PZ team of equal strength. But bio is always an option if the TZ team has a good strategy which can work on the map. A timing attack, a ramp break with mass marines/lings, fast drop, bunker contain.. hell even some kind of cheese.

As for mech vs PZ, well, I've never practiced it much myself so I'm not really familiar with it as much. But again there are a lot of options. The most common or what seems to be the standard opening for TZ mech vs PZ is a mass ling/vulture build. The main counter for this seems to be dragoon/ling. Whether it be 1 gate dragoon or 2 gate zealot (for blocking the zerg) into dragoon. Basically it becomes a battle of decision making. Logically we can understand that Dragoons > Vultures. If both of the Zergs cancel out with zerglings, one would think that the TZ team would lose. That is a BIG if. Vultures are more effective against zerglings than dragoons which gives the TZ team an edge. Vultures are capable of containing a zerg using micro and can allow the TZ's zerg to have more zerglings which can be used against the dragoons. Another advantage of mech is mobility. Upgraded vultures and speed lings - REALLY FAST. If TZ mech gains map control and attempt to threaten either the opposing P or Z, they can turn around in a flash and chase down the other who attempts to help.

All in all both mech and bio require micro to be useful. If a player is poor with control I highly recommend using neither and switching to Protoss.
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