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On June 28 2009 04:42 Severedevil wrote:
Oh. If Zerg does a one-base low econ strategy, the midgame looks a lot nicer for TP. And 9 pool speed hatch lair is a verrrrry slow tech to mutas, so wraith harass should be even more effective, or the Protoss can kick the Zerg out of the air with a single Stargate.
I'm having trouble understanding how TP vs. TZ is difficult if the Zerg plays low. Is the plan for Z to buy time for T to expand and overwhelm the other two?
No. Easiest is going 9pool all lings with lair before speed (but still make speed, gonna be useful vs early goon push and you will have mobility to counter an arrogant protoss and pull out in time if the protoss decides to attack you or defend himself). Your ally goes some vultures (you can play 3fac here for heavy contain to be on the safe side, if the zerg here is 1h muta with mass ling start). Exp after terran is contained or your ally muta was effective. Get straight tank after vultures if enemy terran is metal. Get some gollies to contain the terran if he went for m&m. Try not to be forced to waste ling vs m&m, save them vs protoss. Get faster tank than the opponent and have him contained before he has tank. Getting tank faster than the opponent is easy because he is forced to go goliaths vs the fast muta. After terran is contained you can push the protoss with like 2 tanks and the vultures you had in the beginning. Bring 2-4 scv to repair those tanks. Give vision over cliff with mutas and protect your ally tanks with the muta against the protoss miniarmy. Protoss wont have much units because photons really aren't very good vs mutalisk, neither are goons. If he has archon by this time you should have been able to eliminate him with the initial vultures and the lings. Even if you couldn't kill him in the beginning you should have no problems dealing with the protoss because the protoss won't have goon range or observatory.
The fast lair build is good for few reasons vs a pt team:
-Your muta is faster than a fast 1-2 port wraith
-You have early map control with the lings and you survive against cheeses
-The terran opponent might need to bunker which slows his tech
-Your muta is faster than reaver
-You have a possibility to go very fast overlord speed if you scouted 1gate forge start and just finish off the protoss with 3fac push and some muta after the OL speed is done
I'm not going to explain it more. The way i learned 2on2 was just losing against 500 different builds a million times. Just mass game and you learn what you can do and what you can't do.
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In that case, how does this super-low eco vult build work?
I'd like to try it out (though I might fail, since I usually won't get Z partners who can cover my properly).
I assume I make the two facts before depot? When are SCV's resumed?
Do I pull 2 scv off of gas after starting first fact?
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yes u do the first depo after the 2 factories. Just try it out u'll get it. You stop vulture as soon as you feel like they are for no use. The build order after the factories are not written in stone. Play with it, lose it with, and do it differently next time. It is very important that your zerg ally doesn't waste lings at all.
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i just started playing 2v2s on python mostly and usually the map gets mined out. The game becomes like territory wars and controlling the middle becomes really important because then you can mine from the min only. Why is it that most 2v2s dont happen like this but most people are afraid to expand. I am playing at d/d+ level
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If you let the game go on too long, and you're all afraid to attack each other, of course the game will drag on. ^^;;
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i cant beat xiaozi and ljt...what to do? --;;
edit- not their pz at least
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You should play more games with me, and help me get from D----- to Olympic 2:2, then I will wreak havoc on all foes.
~_~
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metal[x] i dunno.. i've only played vs them when they have played double random I think. I have some tournament rep vs ljt and xiaozi. I'm not sure if i won or lost but i try to find the rep.
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I have like 30-35 rep vs LJT and Xiaozi PZ...if I can find them, maybe win 50% of them.
I think Valio's analysis of TZ vs TP is not very inclusive.
First of all a good protoss isn't going to make cannons vs lings followed by vult, he's just going to make 5-7 zealots and then go goon. Also, when the hell do you see archon TP vs ZT? Good protoss transitions into 3 gate goon with obs and moves out against the mine contain before mutas are out. Good protoss makes enough zealots so zerg cannot afford to stop making lings long enough to drone. Good terran scouts the Z and if he sees an opportunity makes a few vults to prevent ling map control vs slow zealots so they can go make a push on the Z and force him to waste a lot of money on sunkens. It makes his lair tech slower and his mutas weaker. Good protoss times his goon/obs moveout so it's right after you expand, before you have many tanks, and when you've been making gols to deal with the Terrans wraiths. (see next)
Enemy terran reads the situation and goes wraiths. Suddenly it's a lot harder to deal with. You have to go gols after vults and get an acad before your expo is up. A bunker behind his block takes care of ling + vult until you have something that can actually take down his wall, which gives him plenty of time to wraith. Your mines at the T are useless now. Your mines at the P are about to die to obs without doing anything. You should only lay 2/3 of the mines max from each vult against TP because you want those extra mines for when they assuredly kill the mines without losing any units and move out.
If you want your ally to be able to expand, you need to give him 2 tanks for the goons. Now you have fewer tanks when they'd be coming out right after you've expoed.
Generally the win TZ vs TP vs this strat comes from a timing gol/tank push a few minutes after expo when gol range and 2 scanners are available, to either kill the fresh P nat expo or prevent the T expo. Once your ally has his expo and enough mutas he can deal with either by himself, really. This is a matchup where if it gets to midgame your ally's mutas are probably more useful and important than your big gol tank army. Recon is extremely important to make sure your mix of units is ideal vs a wraith -> tank/gol army + zealot -> goon so that you time your transitions properly.
The other strat good teams TP use vs TZ is a 4 fac vult + 3 gate goon timing attack.
I really have no idea when you're seeing a TP team go cannons + archon + goliaths vs TZ...anyone with a sense of timing won't do that at all cause it sucks.
No goon range? No observatory? These are 100% bread and butter builds for good TP vs TZ teams. Contain the enemy T with your earlier tanks...?? TP vs TZ is not actually hard if the TP team knows how to abuse their advantages. A well played 3 gate goon + mass wraith into expos strat is very very difficult to deal with as a TZ team, if it is done properly. It takes a really good Terran on the TZ team for the TZ team to win. I still think TZ has a slight advantage but only when both players really understand the matchup and have very good timing.
It really seems to me that a lot of people talking about the TP team strats in here (metal, dj, valio), while they did accomplish A- 2v2...haven't actually played much vs TP or with TP. More accurately, they haven't played against GOOD TP teams. Dj mentioned strelok and white-ra. Yea, they'd rape my face off 1v1, but I think they are actually not particularly good at 2v2 with TP...I've seen a lot of their reps and sometimes they just do the absolute dumbest-ass things imaginable in 2v2 and I wonder what they could possibly be thinking. My assumption is that they are just fucking around/don't know what to do vs all situation. My ally and I played TP for a lot of games B+ and higher and I think a lot of the analysis in here is wrong. What? You get an expansion on a silver platter if you're zerg vs TP team? Maybe for like 1/2 a minute you do. And it's only going to last if your ally builds to protect you, which means your T is going to weak, which isn't good. Only do that if you know your Z can just rape everyone with his mutas. TZ vs TP is early game T strong, then midgame Z strong, then late game T strong again on the TZ team.
Another thing I'll address that I didn't notice on the 2nd page - 1 hatch muta vs a wraith terran? It will beat the terran's wraith by like...2 seconds. Once he has cloak and you don't have ol speed he'll dominate your 1 hatch production. 2 port wraith is a mineral heavy build and you'll have plenty of extra minerals...if you HAVE to you can just make 1-2 turrets to hold the 3 mutas while your wraith is making. And you're talking about 8 mutas beating 2 photons on ramp and toss needs 6 cannons and blahblah...no. Toss needs a few goons, which he'll make anyways, and range, which he gets anyways. 2 cannon at main, goons at ramp. And it takes fucking forever to get to 8 mutas off 1 hatch build. By then you can 100% sure the protoss will have 8 of his own goons. There's no way you're gonna be killing 2 cannons at the ramp (which is a noob build anyways) and then somehow breaking in with vult ling. By then your ally shouldn't even be making any more vults.
Secretaznman that 2 fac before depot build is really bad against anyone with micro. Never use it. I remember that guy ft.act)ace + westside, using it on me like 4 times in a row and it failed every single time. Why? Because your economy sucks ass and your vult is only about 10 seconds earlier. I'd never seen the build before and I was surprised by how fast his vult was but also by how sucky his econ was and how easily I raped him after 2 minutes. Watching the replay provided the answer: he was using that terrible 2 early fac build. Any zerg worth his salt will defend that easily without his ally's assistance. The 2 fac before depot would only ever be remotely decent in TZ vs TZ and even then its pretty suckass.
I see Valio responded to something about it earlier that I missed, about how it's good vs PP and TP...how are you going to prevent them from scouting you when you don't even have a depot? And I'll gladly play P vs a T with no scv. TZ vs PP is a free win anyways and doing such a terrible build is just giving the possibility of a win to the PP team when it's 100% free win for the TZ team. Vs PT a good P just gonna make 1 cannon (good P will always have a pylon at ramp, probably 2nd, so it's not a problem to wait for the pylon). He can just add a forge after 2 gates and cut 1 zealot to make a cannon. T just has a wall, make a bunk, put 2 rines in it, and then he's fine. Maybe, MAYBE, it will work on a map like vampire where you can block the scout with one rax and thus prevent them from seeing it. But the enemy T can do the same thing, and your vults won't be able to get in. Perhaps you could break him with vult there to kill repairing scv and lings killing depot against the 1 rine the T probably has. If I were P and saw it coming and was totally unprepared I'd just have to make pylons in the choke and hope I could live. But again, that only works on a map where you can block scouting with your first building, the barracks.
In my opinion it's only ever gonna do anything TZ vs TZ when there is an open choke or your enemy Z is really noob. I can assure you I've been against the build...as I said, ace + westside used it on me like 4 games in a row when we played 25-30 games one night.
Valio is also making it sound super complicated like there's all sorts of ways to play it and 5000 different strategies. There aren't really. Maybe a build differs by a couple SCV, but it's not like there's 500 different strats you're gonna face.
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On August 03 2009 04:26 NoobsOfWrath wrote:
I have like 30-35 rep vs LJT and Xiaozi PZ...if I can find them, maybe win 50% of them.
I think Valio's analysis of TZ vs TP is not very inclusive.
First of all a good protoss isn't going to make cannons vs lings followed by vult, he's just going to make 5-7 zealots and then go goon.
5-7 zeal dies vs the 8 gas vult start
On August 03 2009 04:26 NoobsOfWrath wrote:
Enemy terran reads the situation and goes wraiths. Suddenly it's a lot harder to deal with.
As i said before.. 9 pool, lair before speed with mass ling, muta is faster than wraith, and can be done with the 8 gas vult start safely.
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lol no, and like I said if you suck enough to lose that then you can merely make 5 zealots and 1 cannon/forge instead of 2 zealots while gassing a little faster and getting goons sooner. Really, that strat is absolute garbage.
And if you're advocating a 2 fac before depot build as the standard TZ vs TP opening then that's just incredibly noob.
Seriously have you even played a TP team? Absolutely nobody goes archon and cannons vs TZ on a TP team, they just do a standard 5zg opening into 3 gg or even 3 zealot into 3gg if you do your shitty little 1 hatch muta build. Then you'll be absolutely raped. I played some noob who did that today and they just got dominated by 3 gate goon with a few zealots because 1 hatch opening production simply will not stand vs TP who knows that the hell they are doing.
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On August 04 2009 16:56 NoobsOfWrath wrote:
lol no, and like I said if you suck enough to lose that then you can merely make 5 zealots and 1 cannon/forge instead of 2 zealots while gassing a little faster and getting goons sooner. Really, that strat is absolute garbage.
come iccup. Add iFU.Valio.. we play zt vs pt and post result here ^_^
Edit: I didn't talk about archons.. I think i talked about about archives tech? Probably dt.
Edit 2: you said u played vs this today vs some noob. We can try it when you are not playing vs noob. I think i never lost vs pt doing this.
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Valio if your refutation relies on trying to somehow show that you can beat someone who hasn't played in months then there's no point in playing. You take offense at anyone who refutes what you say and then you try to cover it up by ignoring their arguments and challenging them. Even if you did beat me (which you wouldn't, I think I've won every game I've played against you 2v2) it wouldn't prove anything about this argument.
Oh yea I used my noob strategies on noobs like Xiaozi and LJT right? Get real and stop trying to insult me instead of actually addressing the arguments. Oh nevermind, I see I did in fact myself call them a noob; they weren't really "noob," I am calling them a noob for doing such a stupid build and thinking it would be able to somehow overpower my 30 probe 1 base toss economy.
Are you even aware that your post is RIGHT ABOVE YOU? Try reading it again before you claim you didn't say anything about archons. Nobody but a noob is going to 6 (????) cannons and TEMP tech vs a 1 hatch muta + vult build, that's just extremely wasteful and stupid and inflexible. Standard zealot into 3gg obs is what works vs anything TP has.
You're going to go 1 hatch mutas fast enough to beat the wraiths yet still have enough lings to force the P to make more than 3 zealots before vults come instead of 3zg or 5zg? I'm not sure how that's going to work since mutas BARELY beat wraiths if you do a regular 12p muta build. Yea sure you squeeze them out before wraiths on one hatch with 8 drones mining minerals but that's just going to suck ass later, and the wraiths will still beat you once he has cloak. He'll probably outmass your mutas fairly quickly.
On July 30 2009 09:15 Valio wrote:
If he has archon by this time you should have been able to eliminate him with the initial vultures and the lings.
lawl wut? This is completely meaningless. It literally means nothing. What the hell does that mean. If he has archon you can eliminate him with vult and lings? What the hell? Is he like, coming out with his archon and 8 photons and 4 zealots? You're gonna eliminate him? You're gonna push his ramp or what?
???
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On August 04 2009 17:02 NoobsOfWrath wrote:
Valio if your refutation relies on trying to somehow show that you can beat someone who hasn't played in months then there's no point in playing. You take offense at anyone who refutes what you say and then you try to cover it up by ignoring their arguments and challenging them. For the most part your advice doesn't actually explain anything, you just give orders and insist they're right. Even if you did beat me (which you wouldn't, I think I've won every game I've played against you 2v2) it wouldn't prove anything about this argument.
No man its not offence. Its just to prove you this strat works. And how come you haven't played for months if you played today?
Really no flame war but you are also known as? Since you know me and have played vs mecan you tell me who you are?
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On August 04 2009 17:02 NoobsOfWrath wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2009 09:15 Valio wrote:
If he has archon by this time you should have been able to eliminate him with the initial vultures and the lings. lawl wut? This is completely meaningless. It literally means nothing. What the hell does that mean. If he has archon you can eliminate him with vult and lings? What the hell? Is he like, coming out with his archon and 8 photons and 4 zealots? You're gonna eliminate him? You're gonna push his ramp or what? ???
Oh wow, sorry thats a typo. I mean goons.
Edit: Why you get so offended? You are saying i'm insulting you and i didn't insult you at all.. wut?
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On August 04 2009 17:02 NoobsOfWrath wrote:
You're going to go 1 hatch mutas fast enough to beat the wraiths yet still have enough lings to force the P to make more than 3 zealots before vults come instead of 3zg or 5zg? I'm not sure how that's going to work since mutas BARELY beat wraiths if you do a regular 12p muta build. Yea sure you squeeze them out before wraiths on one hatch with 8 drones mining minerals but that's just going to suck ass later, and the wraiths will still beat you once he has cloak. He'll probably outmass your mutas fairly quickly.
Yes.. Its 0 drones build after 9p.. Its all lings while tech muta. And yes the wraiths might beat me later if they have cloack but usually i've kept the wraith amount fairly low. And if i'm not sure i can beat them i go for spore and just wait for my ally scan to get ready or go OL speed.
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On August 04 2009 17:05 Valio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2009 17:02 NoobsOfWrath wrote:
Valio if your refutation relies on trying to somehow show that you can beat someone who hasn't played in months then there's no point in playing. You take offense at anyone who refutes what you say and then you try to cover it up by ignoring their arguments and challenging them. For the most part your advice doesn't actually explain anything, you just give orders and insist they're right. Even if you did beat me (which you wouldn't, I think I've won every game I've played against you 2v2) it wouldn't prove anything about this argument. No man its not offence. Its just to prove you this strat works. And how come you haven't played for months if you played today? Really no flame war but you are also known as? Since you know me and have played vs mecan you tell me who you are?
Meaning I have not played seriously in months and I only play a couple games with my friend every few days. I suck ass now compared to how I used to play. That doesn't mean I can't still talk strategy, it just means I probably can't execute it anymore.
On August 04 2009 17:13 Valio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2009 17:02 NoobsOfWrath wrote:
You're going to go 1 hatch mutas fast enough to beat the wraiths yet still have enough lings to force the P to make more than 3 zealots before vults come instead of 3zg or 5zg? I'm not sure how that's going to work since mutas BARELY beat wraiths if you do a regular 12p muta build. Yea sure you squeeze them out before wraiths on one hatch with 8 drones mining minerals but that's just going to suck ass later, and the wraiths will still beat you once he has cloak. He'll probably outmass your mutas fairly quickly.
Yes.. Its 0 drones build after 9p.. Its all lings while tech muta. And yes the wraiths might beat me later if they have cloack but usually i've kept the wraith amount fairly low. And if i'm not sure i can beat them i go for spore and just wait for my ally scan to get ready or go OL speed.
My argument is that this is an extremely tenuous build that relies on a number of factors that are going to just get you fucked. If you combine this build with your ally doing that cheesy 2 fac before depot build the number of miners you and your ally have combined is going to be less than either one of the TP, and that alone is terrible vs TP since TP relies on superior economy to win. If TP can both get expos running its completely over. Zerg is only going to be able to keep up with T and P if they have MORE expos than T or P; when TZ team has equal expos to TP team the TP team is always going to be stronger. This is even more pronounced off of a 1 hatch start because you'll have a tiny economy and no time to use larva for drones to saturate an expo. Your economy will suck.
And I don't know how you're going to keep his wraith numbers low nor how you would possibly beat him AFTER getting ol speed off a 1 hatch build...that's just 1.5 fewer mutas. Once he has cloak (and even if he doesn't get it) he'll still be able to just straight up 1v1 your mutas, and if he DOES get cloak he'll just RAPE them. 2 port wraith >> 1 hatch muta build if the person playing T doesn't just suck.
Honestly it sounds like your strategy COULD work if it's used on people who don't know how to deal with it. I really really really don't think it would ever work on anyone experienced in TP vs TZ play or anyone who has any experience at all in 1v1 and who knows how to react to these basic things...as I said earlier, I think that a TP team is almost on even footing with a TZ team provided they know their way around the matchup well, and once it hits midgame if either T or P haven't really been crippled then they should win.
My ally and I are a TZ team, me T, with my ally's best race being P but him playing Z so I can play T in 2v2 (my best race). So we have played MANY TZ vs TP, but we've also played MANY TP vs XX, especially TZ. I think TP vs TZ is the easiest of the TP vs XX matchups except maybe TP vs ZZ. My point is that we have experience on both sides of the matchup to a large degree.
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On August 04 2009 17:13 NoobsOfWrath wrote:
Meaning I have not played seriously in months and I only play a couple games with my friend every few days. I suck ass now compared to how I used to play. That doesn't mean I can't still talk strategy, it just means I probably can't execute it anymore.
Ok.. so you are capi or smth? Not many ppl that i've always lost against "always" and that have been inactive for months.
btw: aka? And i didn't say you can't discuss strategy. I've found this build very good vs pt. I've always won with it, even on high ranks (B B+) and games usually end in ~6-8minutes. Thats all i'm saying.
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Valio you know that always does not mean often? It just means that the 5-6 times I've played you, you've lost to my team. I'm sure you can beat me sometimes. My point in saying that was that I'm not some D+ noob and to give what I am saying some weight.
And I didn't mean to insult you I just got a little carried away I guess. If you can win with this build 100% of the time as you claim then I guess more power to you. I think that if you are meeting TP teams at B B+ level and beating them with that build 100% of the time then they don't really know what they are doing and maybe they're just randoming TP or something. I say that as my opinion backed by many games as TZ vs TP and TP vs TZ at B B+ A- level.
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EPT
