Okay so my school just ended and i had some time to record more vods and I've updated my youtube channel.
Some ppl requested for some zerg fpvods so i just recorded a game yesterday.
The channel is not for ppl who have passed B rank on 2on2, its aimed towards D - C+ ranks mainly just to give them some idea about the basic builds etc.
Some of the videos are 2 seasons old and I must say that my skill has increased a lot after that.
First, I wanna say thanks for doing this. It is very nice of you, and about what I was looking for.
However, I find the videos are not very helpful They are very descriptive rather than explicative. I would really appreciate if you could explain as to why one strategy is more likely to succeed than another?
For instance, I saw a PZ v PZ game in Hannibal CJ vs eStro where zergs go 2-3 hatcheries mass lings, and protoss 3 stargates corsairs. Since, both pro gamers did this build, they must have studied it. Why should it work? How would they adapt if the opponent protoss decided to go for 2 gates/archon?
Same thing in your first video? Why did your partner go dropship to escape the cannon contain and not siege tank? Was it to make a surprise timing attack? Why did he go MnM rather than tech? When should terran choose tech vs PZ rather than Marines Medic? Thanks in advance. =)
You can tech vs. PZ when you think T can either defend from initial ling (ling-tight wall in, some positions will allow fact-wall, if that helps) or the ally Z sends initial lings to buy time for T.
The problem with tech against PZ is if you decide to use gols for their anti air, you can't be caught without your Z ally's support, or you can get raped by zeals/goons.
What I've learned from my scrub level 2:2 games. =(
@Leath I know you were directing those towards Valio but since I'm here I'll try to help answer as well.
In regards to your first question.. Hannibal is a PZ paradise, TZ graveyard. Because of the low mineral count and ability to get an extremely fast second gas AND having a ramp (unlike vampire), Protoss is able to dominate all. Without the ramp, corsairs wouldn't be possible.
Here is why the corsair/ling build is the best option in PZ PZ: Lets say Team1 Protoss makes Corsairs, Team1 Zerg lings. If Team2 Protoss makes no corsairs and Team2's Zerg makes mutalisks..
Team1 has complete air control. Team2 Zerg (who does not have corsair support) takes massive overlord losses throughout the game. Team2 Zerg's mutalisks have no effect what so ever because they are eaten in seconds against a massive corsair fleet. Scourges can't even get close to the corsairs. So now Team2 Zerg is rendered useless and has no supply to make anything. Using only corsairs, Team1 Protoss manages to keep Team2 Zerg completely controlled.
Now we have Team2 Protoss and Team1 Zerg. Knowing that Team2 Zerg is useless, Team1 Zerg can pretty much do whatever he wants, including muta. Muta + Corsair would ultimately finish the helpless Team2 Zerg. Because Hannibal mains have ramp entrances, it is very easy to defend and tech. Not only that, but the creep from a starting hatchery alone enables one to place a sunken which can reach your ramp.
When both Protoss make corsairs (which they should), both Zergs must make zerglings to counter the other and stay alive.
I hope that helps answer your first question. Now for the second question about cannon contain in TZ PZ..
The build described for Team2 is a commonly used cannon contain build. The Protoss uses 2 gate with Team2 Zerg's 9 pool in order to ensure map control. After neutralizing any roaming lings(usually only when Team1 Zerg uses 9pool or overpool), Team2 will move to zealot block Team1 Zerg's ramp/entrance. As this is happening, the Protoss will begin to cannon at Team1's natural.
Here are methods to counter cannon contain:
A. Prevention 1.) If Team1 Zerg uses 9pool. This is best when Team1's Zerg is particularly good with zergling control. 9 pool is ultimately a risk vs reward strategy. If it fails to do any damage or does not create any openings for Terran to attack you will most likely lose the game. However, a well maneuvered 9 pool can force Team2 to play defensively, not offensively. In that case you don't have to worry about cannon containment at all and continue to play the game normally. If they do attempt to cannon though, it is possible that Team1 Zerg, with some deception, may escape Team2 Zerg's coverage and gets to the cannons with enough time to neutralize them with the help of his ally's marines (a few SCVs if needed). By now it is likely that Team1 Zerg is zealot contained which means Team2 still has map control.
2.) If they do not defend the warping cannons or do not do so sufficiently and Team1 Zerg is 12pool. If the TZ team is good they will know a PZ team is cannoning. If there are not enough units from Team2 (usually zerglings and possibly left over zealots) defending the cannons while they are warping in, Team1 Terran will be able to come out with his first few marines/some SCVS (if needed). If the Terran is able to do this, Team1 has gained an advantage. No matter what Team2 does next, they must push their tech back or risk defeat.
Some things Team2 may try after situations 1.) and 2.) and Team1's counters to them:
a. Team2 continues massing zerglings to keep Team1 Terran in his base longer (they do not rebuild cannons so Team2 Protoss does not have any slower tech timing). This is buying Team2 time for templar tech or to mass dragoons/get dragoon range. This is beneficial for Team1 Zerg in the race to mutalisks because Team2 Zerg is investing in zerglings. In this case, Team1 Terran needs to only build up enough m&m force before he can move out. The cannon contain problem was prevented and the game progresses as normal.
b. Team2 replaces cannons, continues teching (no additional basic units). This pushes Team2 Protoss's tech timing back especially if he was unable to cancel the original cannons. Keep in mind that Team2 Protoss already has delayed timing because of his original cannon containment. Even with Team2 Protoss having even further slowed timing, Team1 Terran is still cannon contained.
B. Cannons are up, Team1 Terran is contained. 1.) Breaking cannon contain with basic units. This is the fastest method for getting rid of the cannon menace, though it will not be possible, or rather worthwhile if the PZ team is strong and covers all their bases. Now there are two ways to do this: Terran goes alone or he goes with his Zerg ally. Team1 Terran should be using 4 barracks and no tech for this to work best. In order for the Team1 Zerg to help with this method he would have had to of at least 12 pooled. Team1 Zerg would have to break out from his zealot contain which should be possible with 12 pool 2 hatch. Using either only zerglings, a good drone drill, or a sunken, Team1 Zerg can break out. That alone is help for Team1 Terran. With Team1 Zerg's zerglings now roaming the map, any units from Team2 assisting the cannons will be pulled back. With a few firebat shields leading the way and a drugged up mob of marines close behind, Team1 Terran should be able to roll over 3-5 cannons on his own but may take some heavy losses. To reduce losses or to deal with more cannons with only bionic, Team1 Zerg's zergling assistance is required. If he is out massing Team2 Zerg at this point he should be able to go straight to the cannons with little trouble. If that is not the case then some deception may be required to slip by Team2's units and race them to the cannons. Even if Team1 Zerg loses most zerglings to the cannons, its not a problem. The bionic force that has now been freed will melt any zergling force that gets in its way. From here here the game can either be ended (if one player of Team2 is not sufficiently defended they will fall to a swift counter) or the game can continue more conservatively if Team2's defenses are in check.
2.) Breaking cannon contain with a siege tank and using drop ships. Making a siege tank to break the contain has its advantages and disadvantages. The biggest advantage perhaps is that Team1 Terran risks losing 0 units to break out. Another advantage is that Team1 Zerg is not needed to help with the break out. This means that the Team1 Zerg (who is likely zealot contained) can simply focus on getting to lair with a strong economy. The biggest disadvantage is it may potentially take a decent amount of time to break out. In order for this to work best, Team1 Terran MUST know the cannons are being built at a relatively early stage. How? Simple. Either with an overlord or an SCV, Team1 first needs to see a forge being built after Team2 Protoss is pumping 2 gate zealots, but before he gases. This is not the only thing Team1 must see though! It is also very common for Protoss to cannon defend his Zerg ally using the same build order. To determine which style Team2 is using as quick as possible, Team1 must see Team2 Zerg's base. If Team2 Zerg has a pylon being built at his base or if Team2 Zerg has a lair is being built directly after 9pool or directly after 9pool speed (no second hatchery) then it is clear that Team1 Terran will not be cannon contained. The sooner Team1 figures out that there IS or WILL BE a cannon contain, the better. The best situation for Team1 is that they scout Team2 Zerg making a second hatchery (not lair or gas mining) and Team2 Protoss making 2 gate forge (no gas). At this point Team1 Terran can start gas more quickly than usual. If the Terran has a ling proof block it makes it much easier to do this being as less marines/no bunkers are required. If there is no way to block off the ramp then it is (in my opinion) best to have a bunker placed well within your sim city base. Without a bunker, more marines are required and Team1 Terran may face some damage after Team1 Zerg is zealot blocked. After the gas is started, the next tech to be built is a factory (skipping academy for the time being). Once the factory is up, there are a few different ways to go. Team1 Terran may proceed straight to creating a siege tank (always make siege upgrade first since it takes longer). This is possibly the best route to take if Team2 is dragoon/mass zergling after the cannon contain, especially if Team1 Zerg does not have a ramp hatchery to better defend against ranged dragoons. Team1 Terran would also need to add 2 barracks for a total of 4 as well as the factory to best combat the goon/ling army. If Team2 Protoss is teching to DT after the cannon contain (most standard) and/or if Team1 Zerg has secured a ramp hatchery, other options open up with dropships.
a. Team1 Zerg has a ramp hatchery and Team2 is dragoon/zergling, Team1 Terran may proceed to straight to dropship tech (skipping siege tanks for the time being). A quick drop straight to either the enemy Zerg or Protoss could inflict a lot of damage. If Team1 share close positions (12 2 on python or 12 1 on gaia for example), Team1 may not even need a ramp hatchery. It may be the plan of Team2 to contain Team1 Terran so they then may kill Team1 Zerg using ranged goons/zerglings (especially if Team1 Zerg did not take the ramp hatchery). This strategy attempt can be shut down by Team1 in this instance when the Terran quickly transfers his army to Team1 Zerg's base by use of the dropship(s). After Team1 Zerg is safe, using 2 dropships Team1 Terran may severely damage either of Team2's players. And the game progresses on..
b. Team2 Protoss is teching straight to templar tech after the cannon contain. Team1 Terran may tech straight to dropship (skipping siege tank) and have no worries about his ally dying. A quick drop may prove fatal to Team2 Zerg at this point, possibly killing a spire or lair (Team1 Zerg's mutalisks will be needed if Team2 Zerg has them already) and at the very least a number of drone casualties. With proper micro from Team1 Terran and a low zergling count from Team2 Zerg, it may take Team2 Protoss's dark templars to clean up the drop. Either way, Team1 Zerg should have a mutalisk advantage over Team2 Zerg at this point. Mutalisks alone, or accompanied by another marine drop should allow Team1 to kill or severely cripple Team2 Zerg.
c. Team2 Protoss is teching straight to templar tech after the cannon contain. Team1 Terran first makes a quick siege tank to begin breaking the contain. Team2 soon expects a Terran ball to emerge after the cannons are destroyed. BUT! While the siege tank was firing away, Team1 Terran proceeded to dropship tech. This in many instances catches Team2 off guard as a dropship & mutalisk force enter the Team2 Zerg's base (or a poorly defended Protoss's).
There are a lot of other circumstantial details that I could get into, but if I don't stop myself I'll be describing every possible way a TZ PZ match could play out.
@Leath I know you were directing those towards Valio but since I'm here I'll try to help answer as well.
In regards to your first question.. Hannibal is a PZ paradise, TZ graveyard. Because of the low mineral count and ability to get an extremely fast second gas AND having a ramp (unlike vampire), Protoss is able to dominate all. Without the ramp, corsairs wouldn't be possible.
Here is why the corsair/ling build is the best option in PZ PZ: Lets say Team1 Protoss makes Corsairs, Team1 Zerg lings. If Team2 Protoss makes no corsairs and Team2's Zerg makes mutalisks..
Team1 has complete air control. Team2 Zerg (who does not have corsair support) takes massive overlord losses throughout the game. Team2 Zerg's mutalisks have no effect what so ever because they are eaten in seconds against a massive corsair fleet. Scourges can't even get close to the corsairs. So now Team2 Zerg is rendered useless and has no supply to make anything. Using only corsairs, Team1 Protoss manages to keep Team2 Zerg completely controlled.
Now we have Team2 Protoss and Team1 Zerg. Knowing that Team2 Zerg is useless, Team1 Zerg can pretty much do whatever he wants, including muta. Muta + Corsair would ultimately finish the helpless Team2 Zerg. Because Hannibal mains have ramp entrances, it is very easy to defend and tech. Not only that, but the creep from a starting hatchery alone enables one to place a sunken which can reach your ramp.
When both Protoss make corsairs (which they should), both Zergs must make zerglings to counter the other and stay alive.
I hope that helps answer your first question. Now for the second question about cannon contain in TZ PZ..
The build described for Team2 is a commonly used cannon contain build. The Protoss uses 2 gate with Team2 Zerg's 9 pool in order to ensure map control. After neutralizing any roaming lings(usually only when Team1 Zerg uses 9pool or overpool), Team2 will move to zealot block Team1 Zerg's ramp/entrance. As this is happening, the Protoss will begin to cannon at Team1's natural.
Here are methods to counter cannon contain:
A. Prevention 1.) If Team1 Zerg uses 9pool. This is best when Team1's Zerg is particularly good with zergling control. 9 pool is ultimately a risk vs reward strategy. If it fails to do any damage or does not create any openings for Terran to attack you will most likely lose the game. However, a well maneuvered 9 pool can force Team2 to play defensively, not offensively. In that case you don't have to worry about cannon containment at all and continue to play the game normally. If they do attempt to cannon though, it is possible that Team1 Zerg, with some deception, may escape Team2 Zerg's coverage and gets to the cannons with enough time to neutralize them with the help of his ally's marines (a few SCVs if needed). By now it is likely that Team1 Zerg is zealot contained which means Team2 still has map control.
2.) If they do not defend the warping cannons or do not do so sufficiently and Team1 Zerg is 12pool. If the TZ team is good they will know a PZ team is cannoning. If there are not enough units from Team2 (usually zerglings and possibly left over zealots) defending the cannons while they are warping in, Team1 Terran will be able to come out with his first few marines/some SCVS (if needed). If the Terran is able to do this, Team1 has gained an advantage. No matter what Team2 does next, they must push their tech back or risk defeat.
Some things Team2 may try after situations 1.) and 2.) and Team1's counters to them:
a. Team2 continues massing zerglings to keep Team1 Terran in his base longer (they do not rebuild cannons so Team2 Protoss does not have any slower tech timing). This is buying Team2 time for templar tech or to mass dragoons/get dragoon range. This is beneficial for Team1 Zerg in the race to mutalisks because Team2 Zerg is investing in zerglings. In this case, Team1 Terran needs to only build up enough m&m force before he can move out. The cannon contain problem was prevented and the game progresses as normal.
b. Team2 replaces cannons, continues teching (no additional basic units). This pushes Team2 Protoss's tech timing back especially if he was unable to cancel the original cannons. Keep in mind that Team2 Protoss already has delayed timing because of his original cannon containment. Even with Team2 Protoss having even further slowed timing, Team1 Terran is still cannon contained.
B. Cannons are up, Team1 Terran is contained. 1.) Breaking cannon contain with basic units. This is the fastest method for getting rid of the cannon menace, though it will not be possible, or rather worthwhile if the PZ team is strong and covers all their bases. Now there are two ways to do this: Terran goes alone or he goes with his Zerg ally. Team1 Terran should be using 4 barracks and no tech for this to work best. In order for the Team1 Zerg to help with this method he would have had to of at least 12 pooled. Team1 Zerg would have to break out from his zealot contain which should be possible with 12 pool 2 hatch. Using either only zerglings, a good drone drill, or a sunken, Team1 Zerg can break out. That alone is help for Team1 Terran. With Team1 Zerg's zerglings now roaming the map, any units from Team2 assisting the cannons will be pulled back. With a few firebat shields leading the way and a drugged up mob of marines close behind, Team1 Terran should be able to roll over 3-5 cannons on his own but may take some heavy losses. To reduce losses or to deal with more cannons with only bionic, Team1 Zerg's zergling assistance is required. If he is out massing Team2 Zerg at this point he should be able to go straight to the cannons with little trouble. If that is not the case then some deception may be required to slip by Team2's units and race them to the cannons. Even if Team1 Zerg loses most zerglings to the cannons, its not a problem. The bionic force that has now been freed will melt any zergling force that gets in its way. From here here the game can either be ended (if one player of Team2 is not sufficiently defended they will fall to a swift counter) or the game can continue more conservatively if Team2's defenses are in check.
2.) .. so much more to write, I'll get to it
edit: and I noticed how detailed I'm getting with this when this thread is about 2:2 for "dummies".Maybe I should move it to another thread
Whoa! Thanks, George!!! You rock! :D Exceeded my expectations with the awesome reply =)
@Leath I know you were directing those towards Valio but since I'm here I'll try to help answer as well.
In regards to your first question.. Hannibal is a PZ paradise, TZ graveyard. Because of the low mineral count and ability to get an extremely fast second gas AND having a ramp (unlike vampire), Protoss is able to dominate all. Without the ramp, corsairs wouldn't be possible.
Here is why the corsair/ling build is the best option in PZ PZ: Lets say Team1 Protoss makes Corsairs, Team1 Zerg lings. If Team2 Protoss makes no corsairs and Team2's Zerg makes mutalisks..
Team1 has complete air control. Team2 Zerg (who does not have corsair support) takes massive overlord losses throughout the game. Team2 Zerg's mutalisks have no effect what so ever because they are eaten in seconds against a massive corsair fleet. Scourges can't even get close to the corsairs. So now Team2 Zerg is rendered useless and has no supply to make anything. Using only corsairs, Team1 Protoss manages to keep Team2 Zerg completely controlled.
Now we have Team2 Protoss and Team1 Zerg. Knowing that Team2 Zerg is useless, Team1 Zerg can pretty much do whatever he wants, including muta. Muta + Corsair would ultimately finish the helpless Team2 Zerg. Because Hannibal mains have ramp entrances, it is very easy to defend and tech. Not only that, but the creep from a starting hatchery alone enables one to place a sunken which can reach your ramp.
When both Protoss make corsairs (which they should), both Zergs must make zerglings to counter the other and stay alive.
I hope that helps answer your first question. Now for the second question about cannon contain in TZ PZ..
The build described for Team2 is a commonly used cannon contain build. The Protoss uses 2 gate with Team2 Zerg's 9 pool in order to ensure map control. After neutralizing any roaming lings(usually only when Team1 Zerg uses 9pool or overpool), Team2 will move to zealot block Team1 Zerg's ramp/entrance. As this is happening, the Protoss will begin to cannon at Team1's natural.
Here are methods to counter cannon contain:
A. Prevention 1.) If Team1 Zerg uses 9pool. This is best when Team1's Zerg is particularly good with zergling control. 9 pool is ultimately a risk vs reward strategy. If it fails to do any damage or does not create any openings for Terran to attack you will most likely lose the game. However, a well maneuvered 9 pool can force Team2 to play defensively, not offensively. In that case you don't have to worry about cannon containment at all and continue to play the game normally. If they do attempt to cannon though, it is possible that Team1 Zerg, with some deception, may escape Team2 Zerg's coverage and gets to the cannons with enough time to neutralize them with the help of his ally's marines (a few SCVs if needed). By now it is likely that Team1 Zerg is zealot contained which means Team2 still has map control.
2.) If they do not defend the warping cannons or do not do so sufficiently and Team1 Zerg is 12pool. If the TZ team is good they will know a PZ team is cannoning. If there are not enough units from Team2 (usually zerglings and possibly left over zealots) defending the cannons while they are warping in, Team1 Terran will be able to come out with his first few marines/some SCVS (if needed). If the Terran is able to do this, Team1 has gained an advantage. No matter what Team2 does next, they must push their tech back or risk defeat.
Some things Team2 may try after situations 1.) and 2.) and Team1's counters to them:
a. Team2 continues massing zerglings to keep Team1 Terran in his base longer (they do not rebuild cannons so Team2 Protoss does not have any slower tech timing). This is buying Team2 time for templar tech or to mass dragoons/get dragoon range. This is beneficial for Team1 Zerg in the race to mutalisks because Team2 Zerg is investing in zerglings. In this case, Team1 Terran needs to only build up enough m&m force before he can move out. The cannon contain problem was prevented and the game progresses as normal.
b. Team2 replaces cannons, continues teching (no additional basic units). This pushes Team2 Protoss's tech timing back especially if he was unable to cancel the original cannons. Keep in mind that Team2 Protoss already has delayed timing because of his original cannon containment. Even with Team2 Protoss having even further slowed timing, Team1 Terran is still cannon contained.
B. Cannons are up, Team1 Terran is contained. 1.) Breaking cannon contain with basic units. This is the fastest method for getting rid of the cannon menace, though it will not be possible, or rather worthwhile if the PZ team is strong and covers all their bases. Now there are two ways to do this: Terran goes alone or he goes with his Zerg ally. Team1 Terran should be using 4 barracks and no tech for this to work best. In order for the Team1 Zerg to help with this method he would have had to of at least 12 pooled. Team1 Zerg would have to break out from his zealot contain which should be possible with 12 pool 2 hatch. Using either only zerglings, a good drone drill, or a sunken, Team1 Zerg can break out. That alone is help for Team1 Terran. With Team1 Zerg's zerglings now roaming the map, any units from Team2 assisting the cannons will be pulled back. With a few firebat shields leading the way and a drugged up mob of marines close behind, Team1 Terran should be able to roll over 3-5 cannons on his own but may take some heavy losses. To reduce losses or to deal with more cannons with only bionic, Team1 Zerg's zergling assistance is required. If he is out massing Team2 Zerg at this point he should be able to go straight to the cannons with little trouble. If that is not the case then some deception may be required to slip by Team2's units and race them to the cannons. Even if Team1 Zerg loses most zerglings to the cannons, its not a problem. The bionic force that has now been freed will melt any zergling force that gets in its way. From here here the game can either be ended (if one player of Team2 is not sufficiently defended they will fall to a swift counter) or the game can continue more conservatively if Team2's defenses are in check.
2.) .. so much more to write, I'll get to it
edit: and I noticed how detailed I'm getting with this when this thread is about 2:2 for "dummies".Maybe I should move it to another thread
Whoa! Thanks, George!!! You rock! :D Exceeded my expectations with the awesome reply =)
While it did make me chuckle, I think that you should know I'm DJ, not George George is my partner in crime aka Shad0ws-
Anyway I completed my cannon-contain-countering write up for now, but if there are any other questions feel free to ask.
edit: I just read your question about the when to mech/bio vs PZ. In my opinion its more of a personal preference. Marines & medics tend to be potentially the strongest option, though. Some might say its circumstantial depending on the map but in all honesty I think that each map has advantages/disadvantages for mech and bio. For example.. if it is a map with a lot of gas Protoss can get a lottttt of templars. Maps like Vampire and Hannibal prove to be extreme problems for any TZ team against a PZ team of equal strength. But bio is always an option if the TZ team has a good strategy which can work on the map. A timing attack, a ramp break with mass marines/lings, fast drop, bunker contain.. hell even some kind of cheese.
As for mech vs PZ, well, I've never practiced it much myself so I'm not really familiar with it as much. But again there are a lot of options. The most common or what seems to be the standard opening for TZ mech vs PZ is a mass ling/vulture build. The main counter for this seems to be dragoon/ling. Whether it be 1 gate dragoon or 2 gate zealot (for blocking the zerg) into dragoon. Basically it becomes a battle of decision making. Logically we can understand that Dragoons > Vultures. If both of the Zergs cancel out with zerglings, one would think that the TZ team would lose. That is a BIG if. Vultures are more effective against zerglings than dragoons which gives the TZ team an edge. Vultures are capable of containing a zerg using micro and can allow the TZ's zerg to have more zerglings which can be used against the dragoons. Another advantage of mech is mobility. Upgraded vultures and speed lings - REALLY FAST. If TZ mech gains map control and attempt to threaten either the opposing P or Z, they can turn around in a flash and chase down the other who attempts to help.
All in all both mech and bio require micro to be useful. If a player is poor with control I highly recommend using neither and switching to Protoss.
Me and a friend started playing some 2v2 again and we're a pt team. We're doing pretty good in every mu except vs tz for now. So we're wondering if you guys now any viable strategies for a pt team vs a tz team. Because we're losing like 90% of the tz-teams we play. Is this mu just that imba or do we really try out bad strats .
PT teams tend to be quite weak compared to teams with Zerg. PT lacks the mobility and early map control ability that a team with Zerg has. ZT teams for example can pressure either the P or the T using 8 barracks/9pool which alone makes PT vs TZ hard. In order to win games I believe its most important to gain mobility. With the TZ team controlling the map, some sort of air-based strategy is required. Watching Strelok & White-Ra play (the only PT team that I know of worth watching) might help you with strategies. Wraiths and or reavers should often be implemented. Wraiths are already an option vs T and Z so utilizing them in 2:2 against TZ teams is not a bad idea. The most important thing for this match up is scouting. You need to know what types of builds your opponents are using so that you can make the best choice in countering it.
I don't really have much advice to give for PT teams other than always have a Zerg in the mix. If you're looking to improve as PT though, I suggest downloading any PT replays you can find of White-Ra/Strelok.
Short answer: TP vs. TZ, damage your opponents before 2hatch mutas arrive. Protoss sucks against TZ until Protoss techs, so either rush or Protoss has to tech. If you do not rush before vultures come out, Zerg gets his expansion + 1-2 sunkens to secure it, so you'll be screwed when he gets mutas with two hatcheries and two gas unless you can damage him or his Terran first.
2hatch Mutaling + Vulture/Tank dominates pretty much any army you can field. Sure, if your opponents fuck up you can get epic flanks & mine drags with speedlots or something, but that's hardly reliable. You can try Dragoon/Vulture, Dragoon/Goliath, Speedlot/Vulture, or Speedlot/Goliath (before Muta/Siege Tank arrive) but they're very hard. (1gas Sair can beat 2gas Zerg Muta/Scourge, but that's a bitch and is awfully vulnerable to hydra tech switch. You have to decisively win an air battle with it, or there's no hope.) You might be able to expand both players if you cannon/tank on your ridges, but don't count on that either... they attack the Protoss, snipe the tanks, and it's all over. Your goal is to slow down 2hatch Mutaling + Vulture/Tank. (Unless the Zerg goes hydra instead of Muta, or doesn't take his expo, in which case the match-up isn't hard at all.)
If you don't blitz, you need a tech attack that comes before Spire. Fortunately, both Terran and Protoss can easily turtle until Muta/Siege arrive, provided Protoss builds a cannon at his ramp and you don't get caught with your pants down by a hydra/vulture rush. Terran wraith tech is particularly noteworthy, because if done well it forces Goliaths and Hydralisk and spores and Overlord Speed. If you can control the air with wraith, a Protoss anti-terran ground army should win you the game. (Or harass off one starport, and get some metal, that's fine too.)
Other tech styles (1-base Sair/Reaver, Reaver Drop-->Ground Army, DT drop) may also work but I recommend wraith-play. The biggest risk with wraiths is that they suck at straight-up fights. But you weren't going to win a straight-up fight anyway, because 2hatch Mutaling + Vulture/Tank is a murderous rapefest, so you're not sacrificing much.
On June 27 2009 14:49 Metal[x] wrote: wraiths don't force hydralisks...are you on crack? mutalisks deal with wraiths really easily o_O
Uh... unless I really am on crack, wraith arrives significantly before muta, forcing hydras, spores, or both. Were you suggesting a 1-base muta tech?
Furthermore, mutalisk vs. wraith micro is epic and very difficult on both sides, due to cloak and the wraith range advantage. Mutalisk certainly do NOT deal with wraiths easily until reliable detection. (Speed overlord. One comsat probably won't cut it.)
On June 27 2009 14:49 Metal[x] wrote:also- no tz team will switch tech from mutalisks to hydralisk vs a tp army...
Depends on the TP's army composition. If they spend deep on anti-air, as was the example, a tech switch makes sense.
On June 26 2009 14:35 Star.Dj wrote:
All in all both mech and bio require micro to be useful. If a player is poor with control I highly recommend using neither and switching to Protoss.
Uhh... 2v2 mech micro is not very hard. The armies don't get big enough to suffer the, "Oh no, my APM can't handle all this minelaying and tankhopping" that Terrans seems to suffer from, and Vultures and Goliaths (which is usually the bulk of the army, because emplaced tanks are so vulnerable) are much easier than the other races' unit set.
PZ vs. PZ, by contrast, is a microfest. At its least demanding, it's a 1-base ZvZ and a 1-base PvP going on simultaneously.
I don't know a way to play 3-hatch muta in a 2v2. Can mass Vulture + mine/ling buy enough time? I'm doubtful, and that greatly widens the window for tech rushes, but if you actually got 3hatch muta up, it would be very hard to stop.
2-hatch muta is normal in every 2v2 match-up involving Zerg. Normally, the second hatch will be in the main or at the ramp, and often starts after Lair, but against PT you get an expansion on a silver platter.
1-hatch muta is of course an option with PZ/TZ/ZZ vs. PZ/TZ/ZZ, but you have to do a lot of damage/force a lot of sunkens or you'll be outmassed. I doubt it's viable against TP... you'd be outmassed by an absurd margin.
All in all both mech and bio require micro to be useful. If a player is poor with control I highly recommend using neither and switching to Protoss.
Uhh... 2v2 mech micro is not very hard. The armies don't get big enough to suffer the, "Oh no, my APM can't handle all this minelaying and tankhopping" that Terrans seems to suffer from, and Vultures and Goliaths (which is usually the bulk of the army, because emplaced tanks are so vulnerable) are much easier than the other races' unit set.
PZ vs. PZ, by contrast, is a microfest. At its least demanding, it's a 1-base ZvZ and a 1-base PvP going on simultaneously.
What? I never said that mech T is harder or easier than playing any race, any matchup, or anything. All races in all match ups in all game types require micro.
The whole switching to Protoss thing wasn't directed at mech but towards bionic as well; specifically being aimed towards lower skilled players (talking D - C). A low skilled player will struggle a lot more with T than they will with P. TZ vs PZ using bionic, for example, is hard as hell when first learning it. Learning when to scan in order to kill a dark templar. I remember this was my biggest problem; I'd scan whenever a marine died to a DT. You'll find you run out of scans real fast, especially if the Protoss knows how to use the DT. Instead its better to stim & then scan while moving in the direction of the DT. This way, even if it tries to run you'll either trap it or have enough marines in range to kill it. Difficult? No. But if you're slow, inexperienced, or just too lazy to react they can eat you alive. Another example is bionic vs storm. Good luck to a D ranked player with 3 groups of marines versus even 1 templar with 150 energy. Or against a Protoss with excellent dragoon micro. If you are inexperienced using marines vs dragoons they destroy you with very little losses.
As for mech there's a huge difference between using vulture micro well and using it poorly/not at all. You can take out a handful of lings with only one vulture or you can kill nothing and lose the vulture. Using mech against PZ is very micro intensive because you need to either cut off the enemy Zerg's reinforcements or eliminate a lot of them (using only vultures). If you fail to do this and your ally is only matching the enemy zerg's ling count then you will lose any all out confrontation (lings = lings, goons > vultures). No idea where you are getting the no tanks thing from. Tanks are useful in every matchup (mech OR bionic) but not as needed in TZ vs ZZ (having an ally with mutalisks rox lurkers sox so you can SK terran).
Bottom line is all match ups are hard and micro intensive on high levels. On low levels though (again, D ~ C) you'll find that Protoss players are having it easier than Terrans (assuming they are same skill level) because their level of micro is lower or non existent.
On June 27 2009 14:49 Metal[x] wrote: wraiths don't force hydralisks...are you on crack? mutalisks deal with wraiths really easily o_O
Uh... unless I really am on crack, wraith arrives significantly before muta, forcing hydras, spores, or both. Were you suggesting a 1-base muta tech?
Depends on the TP's army composition. If they spend deep on anti-air, as was the example, a tech switch makes sense.
I have never seen a wraith build that forces a zerg to change his whole gameplan from mutalisk to hydralisk. sure maybe a spore or two but definitely not a full change into hydralisk.
No TP army will be so heavily dependent on anti-air units that it will ever be viable to go hydralisk. Lets think of all the things that easily counter a full ground army from TZ (templars, mass tanks). by making the zerg go mutalisk it at least forces the terran to get some goliaths if he techs (plus, you have mobility and map control with mutalisk)
Also, most zergs will play a 9p speed into 2h on ramp vs TP. It's just more safe and well, more safe... Then again they can always make the 3rd to nat and the terran can protect them, but most of the games are 2h on ramp into lair while getting lings.
Oh. If Zerg does a one-base low econ strategy, the midgame looks a lot nicer for TP. And 9 pool speed hatch lair is a verrrrry slow tech to mutas, so wraith harass should be even more effective, or the Protoss can kick the Zerg out of the air with a single Stargate.
I'm having trouble understanding how TP vs. TZ is difficult if the Zerg plays low. Is the plan for Z to buy time for T to expand and overwhelm the other two?
Well what i've experienced is if z plays low it's doable to win but if he cliffhatches before pool it's almost impossible to win. His muta won't be that slow and it's hard to get on ramp with sunken/lings and cliff hatch if you did 3 gate goon + obs opening together with wraiths. But it's the only viable strat that isn't a real all-in as pt vs tz imo. If you do anything else p gets owned by muta tank quite fast.
On June 27 2009 14:49 Metal[x] wrote: wraiths don't force hydralisks...are you on crack? mutalisks deal with wraiths really easily o_O
Uh... unless I really am on crack, wraith arrives significantly before muta, forcing hydras, spores, or both. Were you suggesting a 1-base muta tech?
as opposed to a 12h 3 hatch muta build in a 2v2?
Wraith comes a bit later than muta if zerg goes 9pool straight lair which can be used in zt vs pt forexample.
The build is a normal 9pool with ONLY lings. No drones. After you put your lair up you take 1 drone from gas to minerals and go for speed AFTER lair. when your allies vultures are about to come out u can do +2 drones and put 1 back to gas going straight spire ofc.
On June 27 2009 15:56 Severedevil wrote: 2-hatch muta is normal in every 2v2 match-up involving Zerg. Normally, the second hatch will be in the main or at the ramp, and often starts after Lair, but against PT you get an expansion on a silver platter.
1-hatch muta is of course an option with PZ/TZ/ZZ vs. PZ/TZ/ZZ, but you have to do a lot of damage/force a lot of sunkens or you'll be outmassed. I doubt it's viable against TP... you'd be outmassed by an absurd margin.
1h muta is good vs pt actually with a terran ally. Just 9pool mass ling/straight spire without drones. When vultures are out add few drones and start massing muta while ally goes tank/mine contain while u deny enemy from exping and harrash them. You're muta is faster than their wraith or corsair (Yes they actually do corsair for example on hannibal) and opponent terran will have slower tank bcos he needs gols and ur ally doesn't.
You can do this with a low econ build for terran too. It goes like this. 8 gas 10rax 10fac 10fac 10depo 10depo... mass vult. You will have lings and fast muta. Enemy protoss will need shit load of photon to def vs ur initial 8 muta. You can kill 2 photon on ramp easily with 8 muta and break in with vulture ling after. he also needs more than 2 photon to his main. That kinda makes it 6 photon to stay alive. Goons are not fast enough vs 8gas vulture build if you want to survive vs 9pool.
Oh.. btw the second hatch often does not start after Lair.
That build is extremely bad. I've only seen it used against me a few times in 2v2 games, and it was only on colosseum, and the vults were only a few seconds faster than mine. It's absolute garbage on any map where there isn't a super open choke, and if there is, only vs the T in a TZ vs TZ.
On July 19 2009 06:41 Light]N[exuS wrote: That build is extremely bad. I've only seen it used against me a few times in 2v2 games, and it was only on colosseum, and the vults were only a few seconds faster than mine. It's absolute garbage on any map where there isn't a super open choke, and if there is, only vs the T in a TZ vs TZ.
Well I doubt you've been against this build then if the vultures were only couple seconds earlier than urs. If its done right you'll have 3-4 vultures at enemy natural when enemy has 1 vulture ready.
It is used vs pt and pp, especially on maps like vampire. Sometimes I use it vs zp and zt on vampire but only vs low teams, just to rank up faster.
But why u say only vs T in zt vs zt match up? This build doesn't give you the econ to go against zt. Vs zt its only a cheese which never works on high level. On the other hand, vs pt and pp, it gives you huge advantage right from the beginning. This build requires you to cut some scv production, but vs pp and tp you only cut scv before the initial 2-4 vultures depending on the situation. After this you are free to build your econ and go mines same time. Enemy p has wasted tons of minerals going photons and hes observatory is going to be very late (if he didn't go photons you can just a-move to him with like 4 vultures and the lings you have, cuz by this time he has like ~4-5 zeals and 2-3 goons, try to damage the zeals as much as possible with vultures before you go in with the lings, save as many as possible against the goons. Enemy terran needs to go straight gols after bunkering his cliff or wasting gathering time keeping shitload of scvs on his cliff and he can't leave his base before he has turrets because your zerg ally has muta. By the time enemy protoss has observers, his terran ally is contained with tanks and you are pretty much 2on1 vs the protoss. Just make sure terran can't get a drop ship out of his base cuz thats the only thing he can do.
Its extremely hard to survive vs this build if the zerg has good mutacontrol / harrash and doesn't waste mutas like a B- player.
On June 28 2009 04:42 Severedevil wrote: Oh. If Zerg does a one-base low econ strategy, the midgame looks a lot nicer for TP. And 9 pool speed hatch lair is a verrrrry slow tech to mutas, so wraith harass should be even more effective, or the Protoss can kick the Zerg out of the air with a single Stargate.
I'm having trouble understanding how TP vs. TZ is difficult if the Zerg plays low. Is the plan for Z to buy time for T to expand and overwhelm the other two?
No. Easiest is going 9pool all lings with lair before speed (but still make speed, gonna be useful vs early goon push and you will have mobility to counter an arrogant protoss and pull out in time if the protoss decides to attack you or defend himself). Your ally goes some vultures (you can play 3fac here for heavy contain to be on the safe side, if the zerg here is 1h muta with mass ling start). Exp after terran is contained or your ally muta was effective. Get straight tank after vultures if enemy terran is metal. Get some gollies to contain the terran if he went for m&m. Try not to be forced to waste ling vs m&m, save them vs protoss. Get faster tank than the opponent and have him contained before he has tank. Getting tank faster than the opponent is easy because he is forced to go goliaths vs the fast muta. After terran is contained you can push the protoss with like 2 tanks and the vultures you had in the beginning. Bring 2-4 scv to repair those tanks. Give vision over cliff with mutas and protect your ally tanks with the muta against the protoss miniarmy. Protoss wont have much units because photons really aren't very good vs mutalisk, neither are goons. If he has archon by this time you should have been able to eliminate him with the initial vultures and the lings. Even if you couldn't kill him in the beginning you should have no problems dealing with the protoss because the protoss won't have goon range or observatory.
The fast lair build is good for few reasons vs a pt team: -Your muta is faster than a fast 1-2 port wraith -You have early map control with the lings and you survive against cheeses -The terran opponent might need to bunker which slows his tech -Your muta is faster than reaver -You have a possibility to go very fast overlord speed if you scouted 1gate forge start and just finish off the protoss with 3fac push and some muta after the OL speed is done
I'm not going to explain it more. The way i learned 2on2 was just losing against 500 different builds a million times. Just mass game and you learn what you can do and what you can't do.
yes u do the first depo after the 2 factories. Just try it out u'll get it. You stop vulture as soon as you feel like they are for no use. The build order after the factories are not written in stone. Play with it, lose it with, and do it differently next time. It is very important that your zerg ally doesn't waste lings at all.
i just started playing 2v2s on python mostly and usually the map gets mined out. The game becomes like territory wars and controlling the middle becomes really important because then you can mine from the min only. Why is it that most 2v2s dont happen like this but most people are afraid to expand. I am playing at d/d+ level
metal[x] i dunno.. i've only played vs them when they have played double random I think. I have some tournament rep vs ljt and xiaozi. I'm not sure if i won or lost but i try to find the rep.
I have like 30-35 rep vs LJT and Xiaozi PZ...if I can find them, maybe win 50% of them.
I think Valio's analysis of TZ vs TP is not very inclusive.
First of all a good protoss isn't going to make cannons vs lings followed by vult, he's just going to make 5-7 zealots and then go goon. Also, when the hell do you see archon TP vs ZT? Good protoss transitions into 3 gate goon with obs and moves out against the mine contain before mutas are out. Good protoss makes enough zealots so zerg cannot afford to stop making lings long enough to drone. Good terran scouts the Z and if he sees an opportunity makes a few vults to prevent ling map control vs slow zealots so they can go make a push on the Z and force him to waste a lot of money on sunkens. It makes his lair tech slower and his mutas weaker. Good protoss times his goon/obs moveout so it's right after you expand, before you have many tanks, and when you've been making gols to deal with the Terrans wraiths. (see next)
Enemy terran reads the situation and goes wraiths. Suddenly it's a lot harder to deal with. You have to go gols after vults and get an acad before your expo is up. A bunker behind his block takes care of ling + vult until you have something that can actually take down his wall, which gives him plenty of time to wraith. Your mines at the T are useless now. Your mines at the P are about to die to obs without doing anything. You should only lay 2/3 of the mines max from each vult against TP because you want those extra mines for when they assuredly kill the mines without losing any units and move out.
If you want your ally to be able to expand, you need to give him 2 tanks for the goons. Now you have fewer tanks when they'd be coming out right after you've expoed.
Generally the win TZ vs TP vs this strat comes from a timing gol/tank push a few minutes after expo when gol range and 2 scanners are available, to either kill the fresh P nat expo or prevent the T expo. Once your ally has his expo and enough mutas he can deal with either by himself, really. This is a matchup where if it gets to midgame your ally's mutas are probably more useful and important than your big gol tank army. Recon is extremely important to make sure your mix of units is ideal vs a wraith -> tank/gol army + zealot -> goon so that you time your transitions properly.
The other strat good teams TP use vs TZ is a 4 fac vult + 3 gate goon timing attack.
I really have no idea when you're seeing a TP team go cannons + archon + goliaths vs TZ...anyone with a sense of timing won't do that at all cause it sucks.
No goon range? No observatory? These are 100% bread and butter builds for good TP vs TZ teams. Contain the enemy T with your earlier tanks...?? TP vs TZ is not actually hard if the TP team knows how to abuse their advantages. A well played 3 gate goon + mass wraith into expos strat is very very difficult to deal with as a TZ team, if it is done properly. It takes a really good Terran on the TZ team for the TZ team to win. I still think TZ has a slight advantage but only when both players really understand the matchup and have very good timing.
It really seems to me that a lot of people talking about the TP team strats in here (metal, dj, valio), while they did accomplish A- 2v2...haven't actually played much vs TP or with TP. More accurately, they haven't played against GOOD TP teams. Dj mentioned strelok and white-ra. Yea, they'd rape my face off 1v1, but I think they are actually not particularly good at 2v2 with TP...I've seen a lot of their reps and sometimes they just do the absolute dumbest-ass things imaginable in 2v2 and I wonder what they could possibly be thinking. My assumption is that they are just fucking around/don't know what to do vs all situation. My ally and I played TP for a lot of games B+ and higher and I think a lot of the analysis in here is wrong. What? You get an expansion on a silver platter if you're zerg vs TP team? Maybe for like 1/2 a minute you do. And it's only going to last if your ally builds to protect you, which means your T is going to weak, which isn't good. Only do that if you know your Z can just rape everyone with his mutas. TZ vs TP is early game T strong, then midgame Z strong, then late game T strong again on the TZ team.
Another thing I'll address that I didn't notice on the 2nd page - 1 hatch muta vs a wraith terran? It will beat the terran's wraith by like...2 seconds. Once he has cloak and you don't have ol speed he'll dominate your 1 hatch production. 2 port wraith is a mineral heavy build and you'll have plenty of extra minerals...if you HAVE to you can just make 1-2 turrets to hold the 3 mutas while your wraith is making. And you're talking about 8 mutas beating 2 photons on ramp and toss needs 6 cannons and blahblah...no. Toss needs a few goons, which he'll make anyways, and range, which he gets anyways. 2 cannon at main, goons at ramp. And it takes fucking forever to get to 8 mutas off 1 hatch build. By then you can 100% sure the protoss will have 8 of his own goons. There's no way you're gonna be killing 2 cannons at the ramp (which is a noob build anyways) and then somehow breaking in with vult ling. By then your ally shouldn't even be making any more vults.
Secretaznman that 2 fac before depot build is really bad against anyone with micro. Never use it. I remember that guy ft.act)ace + westside, using it on me like 4 times in a row and it failed every single time. Why? Because your economy sucks ass and your vult is only about 10 seconds earlier. I'd never seen the build before and I was surprised by how fast his vult was but also by how sucky his econ was and how easily I raped him after 2 minutes. Watching the replay provided the answer: he was using that terrible 2 early fac build. Any zerg worth his salt will defend that easily without his ally's assistance. The 2 fac before depot would only ever be remotely decent in TZ vs TZ and even then its pretty suckass.
I see Valio responded to something about it earlier that I missed, about how it's good vs PP and TP...how are you going to prevent them from scouting you when you don't even have a depot? And I'll gladly play P vs a T with no scv. TZ vs PP is a free win anyways and doing such a terrible build is just giving the possibility of a win to the PP team when it's 100% free win for the TZ team. Vs PT a good P just gonna make 1 cannon (good P will always have a pylon at ramp, probably 2nd, so it's not a problem to wait for the pylon). He can just add a forge after 2 gates and cut 1 zealot to make a cannon. T just has a wall, make a bunk, put 2 rines in it, and then he's fine. Maybe, MAYBE, it will work on a map like vampire where you can block the scout with one rax and thus prevent them from seeing it. But the enemy T can do the same thing, and your vults won't be able to get in. Perhaps you could break him with vult there to kill repairing scv and lings killing depot against the 1 rine the T probably has. If I were P and saw it coming and was totally unprepared I'd just have to make pylons in the choke and hope I could live. But again, that only works on a map where you can block scouting with your first building, the barracks.
In my opinion it's only ever gonna do anything TZ vs TZ when there is an open choke or your enemy Z is really noob. I can assure you I've been against the build...as I said, ace + westside used it on me like 4 games in a row when we played 25-30 games one night.
Valio is also making it sound super complicated like there's all sorts of ways to play it and 5000 different strategies. There aren't really. Maybe a build differs by a couple SCV, but it's not like there's 500 different strats you're gonna face.
lol no, and like I said if you suck enough to lose that then you can merely make 5 zealots and 1 cannon/forge instead of 2 zealots while gassing a little faster and getting goons sooner. Really, that strat is absolute garbage.
And if you're advocating a 2 fac before depot build as the standard TZ vs TP opening then that's just incredibly noob.
Seriously have you even played a TP team? Absolutely nobody goes archon and cannons vs TZ on a TP team, they just do a standard 5zg opening into 3 gg or even 3 zealot into 3gg if you do your shitty little 1 hatch muta build. Then you'll be absolutely raped. I played some noob who did that today and they just got dominated by 3 gate goon with a few zealots because 1 hatch opening production simply will not stand vs TP who knows that the hell they are doing.
On August 04 2009 16:56 NoobsOfWrath wrote: lol no, and like I said if you suck enough to lose that then you can merely make 5 zealots and 1 cannon/forge instead of 2 zealots while gassing a little faster and getting goons sooner. Really, that strat is absolute garbage.
come iccup. Add iFU.Valio.. we play zt vs pt and post result here ^_^
Edit: I didn't talk about archons.. I think i talked about about archives tech? Probably dt.
Edit 2: you said u played vs this today vs some noob. We can try it when you are not playing vs noob. I think i never lost vs pt doing this.
Valio if your refutation relies on trying to somehow show that you can beat someone who hasn't played in months then there's no point in playing. You take offense at anyone who refutes what you say and then you try to cover it up by ignoring their arguments and challenging them. Even if you did beat me (which you wouldn't, I think I've won every game I've played against you 2v2) it wouldn't prove anything about this argument.
Oh yea I used my noob strategies on noobs like Xiaozi and LJT right? Get real and stop trying to insult me instead of actually addressing the arguments. Oh nevermind, I see I did in fact myself call them a noob; they weren't really "noob," I am calling them a noob for doing such a stupid build and thinking it would be able to somehow overpower my 30 probe 1 base toss economy.
Are you even aware that your post is RIGHT ABOVE YOU? Try reading it again before you claim you didn't say anything about archons. Nobody but a noob is going to 6 (????) cannons and TEMP tech vs a 1 hatch muta + vult build, that's just extremely wasteful and stupid and inflexible. Standard zealot into 3gg obs is what works vs anything TP has.
You're going to go 1 hatch mutas fast enough to beat the wraiths yet still have enough lings to force the P to make more than 3 zealots before vults come instead of 3zg or 5zg? I'm not sure how that's going to work since mutas BARELY beat wraiths if you do a regular 12p muta build. Yea sure you squeeze them out before wraiths on one hatch with 8 drones mining minerals but that's just going to suck ass later, and the wraiths will still beat you once he has cloak. He'll probably outmass your mutas fairly quickly.
On July 30 2009 09:15 Valio wrote: If he has archon by this time you should have been able to eliminate him with the initial vultures and the lings.
lawl wut? This is completely meaningless. It literally means nothing. What the hell does that mean. If he has archon you can eliminate him with vult and lings? What the hell? Is he like, coming out with his archon and 8 photons and 4 zealots? You're gonna eliminate him? You're gonna push his ramp or what?
On August 04 2009 17:02 NoobsOfWrath wrote: Valio if your refutation relies on trying to somehow show that you can beat someone who hasn't played in months then there's no point in playing. You take offense at anyone who refutes what you say and then you try to cover it up by ignoring their arguments and challenging them. For the most part your advice doesn't actually explain anything, you just give orders and insist they're right. Even if you did beat me (which you wouldn't, I think I've won every game I've played against you 2v2) it wouldn't prove anything about this argument.
No man its not offence. Its just to prove you this strat works. And how come you haven't played for months if you played today?
Really no flame war but you are also known as? Since you know me and have played vs mecan you tell me who you are?
On July 30 2009 09:15 Valio wrote: If he has archon by this time you should have been able to eliminate him with the initial vultures and the lings.
lawl wut? This is completely meaningless. It literally means nothing. What the hell does that mean. If he has archon you can eliminate him with vult and lings? What the hell? Is he like, coming out with his archon and 8 photons and 4 zealots? You're gonna eliminate him? You're gonna push his ramp or what?
???
Oh wow, sorry thats a typo. I mean goons.
Edit: Why you get so offended? You are saying i'm insulting you and i didn't insult you at all.. wut?
On August 04 2009 17:02 NoobsOfWrath wrote: You're going to go 1 hatch mutas fast enough to beat the wraiths yet still have enough lings to force the P to make more than 3 zealots before vults come instead of 3zg or 5zg? I'm not sure how that's going to work since mutas BARELY beat wraiths if you do a regular 12p muta build. Yea sure you squeeze them out before wraiths on one hatch with 8 drones mining minerals but that's just going to suck ass later, and the wraiths will still beat you once he has cloak. He'll probably outmass your mutas fairly quickly.
Yes.. Its 0 drones build after 9p.. Its all lings while tech muta. And yes the wraiths might beat me later if they have cloack but usually i've kept the wraith amount fairly low. And if i'm not sure i can beat them i go for spore and just wait for my ally scan to get ready or go OL speed.
On August 04 2009 17:02 NoobsOfWrath wrote: Valio if your refutation relies on trying to somehow show that you can beat someone who hasn't played in months then there's no point in playing. You take offense at anyone who refutes what you say and then you try to cover it up by ignoring their arguments and challenging them. For the most part your advice doesn't actually explain anything, you just give orders and insist they're right. Even if you did beat me (which you wouldn't, I think I've won every game I've played against you 2v2) it wouldn't prove anything about this argument.
No man its not offence. Its just to prove you this strat works. And how come you haven't played for months if you played today?
Really no flame war but you are also known as? Since you know me and have played vs mecan you tell me who you are?
Meaning I have not played seriously in months and I only play a couple games with my friend every few days. I suck ass now compared to how I used to play. That doesn't mean I can't still talk strategy, it just means I probably can't execute it anymore.
On August 04 2009 17:02 NoobsOfWrath wrote: You're going to go 1 hatch mutas fast enough to beat the wraiths yet still have enough lings to force the P to make more than 3 zealots before vults come instead of 3zg or 5zg? I'm not sure how that's going to work since mutas BARELY beat wraiths if you do a regular 12p muta build. Yea sure you squeeze them out before wraiths on one hatch with 8 drones mining minerals but that's just going to suck ass later, and the wraiths will still beat you once he has cloak. He'll probably outmass your mutas fairly quickly.
Yes.. Its 0 drones build after 9p.. Its all lings while tech muta. And yes the wraiths might beat me later if they have cloack but usually i've kept the wraith amount fairly low. And if i'm not sure i can beat them i go for spore and just wait for my ally scan to get ready or go OL speed.
My argument is that this is an extremely tenuous build that relies on a number of factors that are going to just get you fucked. If you combine this build with your ally doing that cheesy 2 fac before depot build the number of miners you and your ally have combined is going to be less than either one of the TP, and that alone is terrible vs TP since TP relies on superior economy to win. If TP can both get expos running its completely over. Zerg is only going to be able to keep up with T and P if they have MORE expos than T or P; when TZ team has equal expos to TP team the TP team is always going to be stronger. This is even more pronounced off of a 1 hatch start because you'll have a tiny economy and no time to use larva for drones to saturate an expo. Your economy will suck.
And I don't know how you're going to keep his wraith numbers low nor how you would possibly beat him AFTER getting ol speed off a 1 hatch build...that's just 1.5 fewer mutas. Once he has cloak (and even if he doesn't get it) he'll still be able to just straight up 1v1 your mutas, and if he DOES get cloak he'll just RAPE them. 2 port wraith >> 1 hatch muta build if the person playing T doesn't just suck.
Honestly it sounds like your strategy COULD work if it's used on people who don't know how to deal with it. I really really really don't think it would ever work on anyone experienced in TP vs TZ play or anyone who has any experience at all in 1v1 and who knows how to react to these basic things...as I said earlier, I think that a TP team is almost on even footing with a TZ team provided they know their way around the matchup well, and once it hits midgame if either T or P haven't really been crippled then they should win.
My ally and I are a TZ team, me T, with my ally's best race being P but him playing Z so I can play T in 2v2 (my best race). So we have played MANY TZ vs TP, but we've also played MANY TP vs XX, especially TZ. I think TP vs TZ is the easiest of the TP vs XX matchups except maybe TP vs ZZ. My point is that we have experience on both sides of the matchup to a large degree.
On August 04 2009 17:13 NoobsOfWrath wrote: Meaning I have not played seriously in months and I only play a couple games with my friend every few days. I suck ass now compared to how I used to play. That doesn't mean I can't still talk strategy, it just means I probably can't execute it anymore.
Ok.. so you are capi or smth? Not many ppl that i've always lost against "always" and that have been inactive for months.
btw: aka? And i didn't say you can't discuss strategy. I've found this build very good vs pt. I've always won with it, even on high ranks (B B+) and games usually end in ~6-8minutes. Thats all i'm saying.
Valio you know that always does not mean often? It just means that the 5-6 times I've played you, you've lost to my team. I'm sure you can beat me sometimes. My point in saying that was that I'm not some D+ noob and to give what I am saying some weight.
And I didn't mean to insult you I just got a little carried away I guess. If you can win with this build 100% of the time as you claim then I guess more power to you. I think that if you are meeting TP teams at B B+ level and beating them with that build 100% of the time then they don't really know what they are doing and maybe they're just randoming TP or something. I say that as my opinion backed by many games as TZ vs TP and TP vs TZ at B B+ A- level.
On August 04 2009 17:13 NoobsOfWrath wrote: My argument is that this is an extremely tenuous build that relies on a number of factors that are going to just get you fucked. If you combine this build with your ally doing that cheesy 2 fac before depot build the number of miners you and your ally have combined is going to be less than either one of the TP, and that alone is terrible vs TP since TP relies on superior economy to win.
The p player really doesn't survive vs this with goons. If he did survive then the zt team wasted units or didn't micro well. If he went forge he needs to waste so much on photon that the zt team terran will catch up with his unit amount. The enemy terran has no problem at all defending against this, but the protoss is so fucked.
It seems to me that if you're going to use that build it absolutely must be before 2 goons get out, because 3-5 zealots + 2 goons + maynard probe on the ramp is going to really fuck up any ramp push, and if you've gone 1 hatch you really will only have what like 20 lings at this point? 5zg gets 2 goons out at 4 minutes, so that's not exactly slow. Protoss can afford to lose 6-10 probes to this and he'll still be ahead of T and Z if you do the 2 fac before depot build. If you DON'T do the 2 fac before depot build toss won't even need to maynard anything, not that I'm even sure he would anyways vs the 2 fac before depot.
If you can win with this build 100% of the time as you claim then I guess more power to you. I think that if you are meeting TP teams at B B+ level and beating them with that build 100% of the time then they don't really know what they are doing and maybe they're just randoming TP or something. I say that as my opinion backed by many games as TZ vs TP and TP vs TZ at B B+ A- level.
I usually do this only when my ally randoms terran. I don't use it on all maps tho. Thats probably the reason i win 100% with this build. It works without randoming also. Only maps i think are good for PT team are colosseum, garden and hannibal. Can't think of anything else now.
Most maps aren't GOOD for TP but it can be played and abused and fucked with since most people don't know how to approach it vs GOOD TP players. And TP vs TZ works on any map.
Another point I didn't hammer home enough is that there's literally 0 way to stop someone scouting your 2 fac before depot build. P can just throw up a forge and ONE cannon with his 3 zealots before going to goons. If the Z tries to break it he can just maynard onto it. A good P will always know where the lings are, or his ally will; their probe and scv will be alive in mid or in enemy base watching shit as it happens. He could probably even use the PZ forge vs TZ build and give himself the cannons instead of his ally and still have 2-4 goons when mutas come and range 50% done. That's enough to defend the first 3 mutas easily, and then by the time 5-6 mutas come you'll have 6 goons, etc etc. If you HAVE to you might put up a cannon at your nexus but even then you'll be way ahead of the 6...drones....mining minerals....at the zerg base.
Anyone who has tried to go up a ramp vs a protoss with some zealots and goons with lings/vults while probes are maynarding through knows that it's nigh impossible. The toss wouldn't even worry about losing probes cause he knows the Z has 6 drones on mineral and the T has like 12 scvs.
TP teams don't move out early anyways. The only thing a 1 hatchmuta build accomplishes vs them is forcing them to stay in their base which they would do anyways while they wait for their timing window for machine shop ups to finish and a critical mass to be reached/obs to finish or to expand.
Why can't either player on the TP team just scout the terran doing the 2 fac before depot build and make 1 cannon then play on with a huge econ advantage?
On August 04 2009 17:28 NoobsOfWrath wrote: It seems to me that if you're going to use that build it absolutely must be before 2 goons get out, because 3-5 zealots + 2 goons + maynard probe on the ramp is going to really fuck up any ramp push, and if you've gone 1 hatch you really will only have what like 20 lings at this point? 5zg gets 2 goons out at 4 minutes, so that's not exactly slow. Protoss can afford to lose 6-10 probes to this and he'll still be ahead of T and Z if you do the 2 fac before depot build. If you DON'T do the 2 fac before depot build toss won't even need to maynard anything, not that I'm even sure he would anyways vs the 2 fac before depot.
The p has like 4-5 zeals 0 goons, or 2-3 zeals 1-2 goons if he went 1g, the exact moment when he has 3 vultures at his natural. And he will lose a lot mining time vs 9p with 1g start which slows the 1g start a lot.
Often all the protosses die vs the first 3 vultures if they didn't go forge And if they went forge, your ally didn't need mines and t is easy to kill with tank since he can't go tank him self cuz he is up against very fast muta.
On August 04 2009 17:28 NoobsOfWrath wrote: It seems to me that if you're going to use that build it absolutely must be before 2 goons get out, because 3-5 zealots + 2 goons + maynard probe on the ramp is going to really fuck up any ramp push, and if you've gone 1 hatch you really will only have what like 20 lings at this point? 5zg gets 2 goons out at 4 minutes, so that's not exactly slow. Protoss can afford to lose 6-10 probes to this and he'll still be ahead of T and Z if you do the 2 fac before depot build. If you DON'T do the 2 fac before depot build toss won't even need to maynard anything, not that I'm even sure he would anyways vs the 2 fac before depot.
The p has like 4-5 zeals 0 goons, or 2-3 zeals 1-2 goons if he went 1g, the exact moment when he has 3 vultures at his natural. And he will lose a lot mining time vs 9p with 1g start which slows the 1g start a lot.
Often all the protosses die vs the first 3 vultures if they didn't go forge And if they went forge, your ally didn't need mines and t is easy to kill with tank since he can't go tank him self cuz he is up against very fast muta.
On August 04 2009 17:28 NoobsOfWrath wrote: It seems to me that if you're going to use that build it absolutely must be before 2 goons get out, because 3-5 zealots + 2 goons + maynard probe on the ramp is going to really fuck up any ramp push, and if you've gone 1 hatch you really will only have what like 20 lings at this point? 5zg gets 2 goons out at 4 minutes, so that's not exactly slow. Protoss can afford to lose 6-10 probes to this and he'll still be ahead of T and Z if you do the 2 fac before depot build. If you DON'T do the 2 fac before depot build toss won't even need to maynard anything, not that I'm even sure he would anyways vs the 2 fac before depot.
The p has like 4-5 zeals 0 goons, or 2-3 zeals 1-2 goons if he went 1g, the exact moment when he has 3 vultures at his natural. And he will lose a lot mining time vs 9p with 1g start which slows the 1g start a lot.
Often all the protosses die vs the first 3 vultures if they didn't go forge And if they went forge, your ally didn't need mines and t is easy to kill with tank since he can't go tank him self cuz he is up against very fast muta.
So you will allow the protoss to move out without even getting a robo? 3gate goon + a terran that went either wraith or gol vs a 1hatch muta and a low scv count terran with tanks who didnt even get mines?
On August 04 2009 17:34 BalloonFight wrote: Why can't either player on the TP team just scout the terran doing the 2 fac before depot build and make 1 cannon then play on with a huge econ advantage?
Thats what you do against this build. I've played the longest games vs 1 cannon start. If this happens z must control mutal very good and deal a lot of damage to econ and force static defense. Then its muta micro with 1h, scout with lings well. Ally terran 1on2, but enemy terran is contained easily so its very hard for the enemy protoss cuz he needs to survive 1on2.
Usually we contain the terran with turret tanks and the lings that i didn't use. Then we slowly push protoss with rest of the tanks and overlord + muta, while terran is trying to break free from the contain and my ally is getting bigger and bigger advantage on the unit count.
On August 04 2009 17:40 BalloonFight wrote: So you will allow the protoss to move out without even getting a robo? 3gate goon + a terran that went either wraith or gol vs a 1hatch muta and a low scv count terran with tanks who didnt even get mines?
Ok
Not really. The t is contained with turret tank and we start pushing protoss. we don't need mines for push.
On August 04 2009 17:34 BalloonFight wrote: Why can't either player on the TP team just scout the terran doing the 2 fac before depot build and make 1 cannon then play on with a huge econ advantage?
Thats what you do against this build. I've played the longest games vs 1 cannon start. If this happens z must control mutal very good and deal a lot of damage to econ and force static defense. Then its muta micro with 1h, scout with lings well. Ally terran 1on2, but enemy terran is contained easily so its very hard for the enemy protoss cuz he needs to survive 1on2.
Usually we contain the terran with turret tanks and the lings that i didn't use. Then we slowly push protoss with rest of the tanks and overlord + muta, while terran is trying to break free from the contain and my ally is getting bigger and bigger advantage on the unit count.
But this doesn't work...in a TvT you can't just put a couple cursory units in your contain then go do whatever else you want. You are going to be putting ALL your units into a contain on the enemy T for awhile before you have a mobile unit army that isn't part of the contain. You'll need a LOT of tanks to hold a good terran who knows how to break a contain. In this time that your ally's first tanks are static sitting outside the T base the P will be 1v1ing the 1 hatch muta zerg? And 3 gate goon rapes 1 hatch muta even with some lings.
It's kind of hard to expand to get the money you need as the TZ terran to do this strategy while maintaining enough tanks on the enemy to keep him in AND helping the Z vs the P. Doing this off a 2 fac before depot build...is pretty hard to believe. Really I don't see this strategy working vs competent/experienced TP players. And anyways the T on a TP team isn't going to be massing ground units, he's going to be going wraiths unless there's some weird situation that calls for something else (generally 4 fac vults vs non-fast muta). 2 port wraith is the 100% standard opening vs TZ. It's like 9p pz vs pz. It's used 95% of the time.
On August 04 2009 17:44 NoobsOfWrath wrote: But this doesn't work...in a TvT you can't just put a couple cursory units in your contain then go do whatever else you want.
We have muta and lings which have enough mobility to be at p push and terran contain. I can either keep ling or muta at t contain while pushing with the other group. The turret contain is only vs wraith btw. We dont do ebay vs gol start. And its VERY hard for terran to come out vs a team of lings and 1-2 tanks (maybe 1 scv repairing) if the tanks are positioned so that they barely reach the cliff. Even if he gets out he loses a lot of units and is fucked with muta afterwards.
Remember terran also started off with a bunker OR wasted mining time with 2-3 scv on cliff while was forced to do few rines. He also doesn't have the same unit combination for breaking the contain like in a normal 1on1 TvT. If he went gols u can also try to push him with few tanks and vults while harrashing his scvs. Its easier to get up his ramp if u draw half of his gols to his minerals while ally terran pushes up. You go to enemy ramp asap with muta when he comes to minerals with some gols, to help the push. If he didn't bring enough gols just kill them and don't go help the push.
On August 04 2009 17:44 NoobsOfWrath wrote: But this doesn't work...in a TvT you can't just put a couple cursory units in your contain then go do whatever else you want.
We have muta and lings which have enough mobility to be at p push and terran contain. I can either keep ling or muta at t contain while pushing with the other group. The turret contain is only vs wraith btw. We dont do ebay vs gol start. And its VERY hard for terran to come out vs a team of lings and 1-2 tanks (maybe 1 scv repairing) if the tanks are positioned so that they barely reach the cliff. Even if he gets out he loses a lot of units and is fucked with muta afterwards.
I don't see how you're gonna set up tanks and get a turret going vs cloaked wraiths long before ol speed and before you have even close the number of muta needed to beat 2 port wraith....2 base z muta beats 2 port wraith straight up....1 hatch 6 drone muta does not. 2 port wraith would probably win 2v1 vs a TZ team that did 1 hatch muta + fast tank, actually.
The solution to wraiths is not turrets, it's goliaths and scan.
Clearly the reason you are winning with this strategy is because you are somehow always facing TP teams that DON'T go wraiths which is just dumb because wraith is 100% no doubt the BEST opening vs TZ.
On August 04 2009 17:34 BalloonFight wrote: Why can't either player on the TP team just scout the terran doing the 2 fac before depot build and make 1 cannon then play on with a huge econ advantage?
That's what I expected the enemy PP team to do when I tried it on LT.
Thing is, they were pretty noob, so I didn't get much out of using the build. I was on 9:00 pos, so I can wall off with 1 depot+rax. I put my facts in the corner, so I guess the protoss didn't see them. He made the mistake of sending his probe back out, so I followed him with my SCV and walled just as his probe left. ^^;;
The build is also micro-intensive, to the extent that it will be hard to continue macroing (unless you hotky both facts and your building SCV.) This was a problem the second (of only two times) I used it. I don't make much of a habbit of macroing with hotkeys early game. =\
I'm only playing at the D+/C- level, so I could probably exploit this build vs TP teams, since D+/C- TP teams probably don't know what to do.
EDIT: Oh, and vs TZ as TP team, what should I do if the Z goes hydra? Sometimes, I get too focused on maximizing damage with wraiths, that I lose them, don't macro. Also, since gas is the limiting factor, do I just expand after I'm peaking 2port wraith production?
What should protoss be doing? You said 3gg if T is 4 fact vult, and P pressures Z with zeals (or just makes zeals, and shows them to the OL, so Z has to sunken, for the possibility of a break?
How does the mass zeal timing work vs TZ's vult timings? If protoss gets too caught up with zeal pressure on Z, he might get flanked while I'm working on wraiths, or a runby might happen if he's not careful. If an advantage is obtaind with zeal pressure, what does the TP team need to try and do?
On August 04 2009 17:44 NoobsOfWrath wrote: But this doesn't work...in a TvT you can't just put a couple cursory units in your contain then go do whatever else you want.
We have muta and lings which have enough mobility to be at p push and terran contain. I can either keep ling or muta at t contain while pushing with the other group. The turret contain is only vs wraith btw. We dont do ebay vs gol start. And its VERY hard for terran to come out vs a team of lings and 1-2 tanks (maybe 1 scv repairing) if the tanks are positioned so that they barely reach the cliff. Even if he gets out he loses a lot of units and is fucked with muta afterwards.
I don't see how you're gonna set up tanks and get a turret going vs cloaked wraiths long before ol speed and before you have even close the number of muta needed to beat 2 port wraith....2 base z muta beats 2 port wraith straight up....1 hatch 6 drone muta does not. 2 port wraith would probably win 2v1 vs a TZ team that did 1 hatch muta + fast tank, actually.
The solution to wraiths is not turrets, it's goliaths and scan.
Clearly the reason you are winning with this strategy is because you are somehow always facing TP teams that DON'T go wraiths which is just dumb because wraith is 100% no doubt the BEST opening vs TZ.
Hmm.. man.. the muta REALLY wins the 2 port wraith. U have muta before wraith, you can like fly over his ports with scourges and fuck him up. You are correct, the 2 port wraith owns 1h muta in long run, but in the very beginning you have like 2 scourge an 5 muta when he has 2 wraith. You just gotta keep the wraith count low or you get owned. When you are at his base he has almost 4 wraiths. You still win this very easily if you don't waste ur scourges vs 2-3 rines.
On August 04 2009 17:34 BalloonFight wrote: Why can't either player on the TP team just scout the terran doing the 2 fac before depot build and make 1 cannon then play on with a huge econ advantage?
That's what I expected the enemy PP team to do when I tried it on LT.
Thing is, they were pretty noob, so I didn't get much out of using the build.
Really don't need to read any further than this then. PP is worse than PT, plus you won't have to worry about wraiths at all. Also if they were pretty noob you can basically do whatever build and usually win if you are just superior in skill.
On August 04 2009 17:44 NoobsOfWrath wrote: But this doesn't work...in a TvT you can't just put a couple cursory units in your contain then go do whatever else you want.
We have muta and lings which have enough mobility to be at p push and terran contain. I can either keep ling or muta at t contain while pushing with the other group. The turret contain is only vs wraith btw. We dont do ebay vs gol start. And its VERY hard for terran to come out vs a team of lings and 1-2 tanks (maybe 1 scv repairing) if the tanks are positioned so that they barely reach the cliff. Even if he gets out he loses a lot of units and is fucked with muta afterwards.
I don't see how you're gonna set up tanks and get a turret going vs cloaked wraiths long before ol speed and before you have even close the number of muta needed to beat 2 port wraith....2 base z muta beats 2 port wraith straight up....1 hatch 6 drone muta does not. 2 port wraith would probably win 2v1 vs a TZ team that did 1 hatch muta + fast tank, actually.
The solution to wraiths is not turrets, it's goliaths and scan.
Clearly the reason you are winning with this strategy is because you are somehow always facing TP teams that DON'T go wraiths which is just dumb because wraith is 100% no doubt the BEST opening vs TZ.
Hmm.. man.. the muta REALLY wins the 2 port wraith. U have muta before wraith, you can like fly over his ports with scourges and fuck him up. You are correct, the 2 port wraith owns 1h muta in long run, but in the very beginning you have like 2 scourge an 5 muta when he has 2 wraith. You just gotta keep the wraith count low or you get owned. When you are at his base he has almost 4 wraiths. You still win this very easily if you don't waste ur scourges vs 2-3 rines.
Oh and they go wraiths like 90% of the time.
But it's so easy to scout that you're doing it...and like I said earlier wraith is a mineral-abundant strat. It's quite easy to defend vs 1 hatch muta with 2 port wraith when you know it's coming.
Anyways I'm done with this argument. I've made my point like 4 times now so it's clearly pointless to keep arguing.
On August 04 2009 17:44 NoobsOfWrath wrote: But this doesn't work...in a TvT you can't just put a couple cursory units in your contain then go do whatever else you want.
We have muta and lings which have enough mobility to be at p push and terran contain. I can either keep ling or muta at t contain while pushing with the other group. The turret contain is only vs wraith btw. We dont do ebay vs gol start. And its VERY hard for terran to come out vs a team of lings and 1-2 tanks (maybe 1 scv repairing) if the tanks are positioned so that they barely reach the cliff. Even if he gets out he loses a lot of units and is fucked with muta afterwards.
I don't see how you're gonna set up tanks and get a turret going vs cloaked wraiths long before ol speed and before you have even close the number of muta needed to beat 2 port wraith....2 base z muta beats 2 port wraith straight up....1 hatch 6 drone muta does not. 2 port wraith would probably win 2v1 vs a TZ team that did 1 hatch muta + fast tank, actually.
The solution to wraiths is not turrets, it's goliaths and scan.
Clearly the reason you are winning with this strategy is because you are somehow always facing TP teams that DON'T go wraiths which is just dumb because wraith is 100% no doubt the BEST opening vs TZ.
Hmm.. man.. the muta REALLY wins the 2 port wraith. U have muta before wraith, you can like fly over his ports with scourges and fuck him up. You are correct, the 2 port wraith owns 1h muta in long run, but in the very beginning you have like 2 scourge an 5 muta when he has 2 wraith. You just gotta keep the wraith count low or you get owned. When you are at his base he has almost 4 wraiths. You still win this very easily if you don't waste ur scourges vs 2-3 rines.
Oh and they go wraiths like 90% of the time.
But it's so easy to scout that you're doing it...and like I said earlier wraith is a mineral-abundant strat. It's quite easy to defend vs 1 hatch muta with 2 port wraith when you know it's coming.
Anyways I'm done with this argument. I've made my point like 4 times now so it's clearly pointless to keep arguing.
I get your point man. If i were to play for win i would probably choose normal build, but this is for faster ranking and its proven its self very realiable anyway.
EPT
