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On August 04 2009 17:13 NoobsOfWrath wrote:
My argument is that this is an extremely tenuous build that relies on a number of factors that are going to just get you fucked. If you combine this build with your ally doing that cheesy 2 fac before depot build the number of miners you and your ally have combined is going to be less than either one of the TP, and that alone is terrible vs TP since TP relies on superior economy to win.
The p player really doesn't survive vs this with goons. If he did survive then the zt team wasted units or didn't micro well. If he went forge he needs to waste so much on photon that the zt team terran will catch up with his unit amount. The enemy terran has no problem at all defending against this, but the protoss is so fucked.
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someone tell me who he is
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It seems to me that if you're going to use that build it absolutely must be before 2 goons get out, because 3-5 zealots + 2 goons + maynard probe on the ramp is going to really fuck up any ramp push, and if you've gone 1 hatch you really will only have what like 20 lings at this point? 5zg gets 2 goons out at 4 minutes, so that's not exactly slow. Protoss can afford to lose 6-10 probes to this and he'll still be ahead of T and Z if you do the 2 fac before depot build. If you DON'T do the 2 fac before depot build toss won't even need to maynard anything, not that I'm even sure he would anyways vs the 2 fac before depot.
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On August 04 2009 17:20 NoobsOfWrath wrote:
If you can win with this build 100% of the time as you claim then I guess more power to you. I think that if you are meeting TP teams at B B+ level and beating them with that build 100% of the time then they don't really know what they are doing and maybe they're just randoming TP or something. I say that as my opinion backed by many games as TZ vs TP and TP vs TZ at B B+ A- level.
I usually do this only when my ally randoms terran. I don't use it on all maps tho. Thats probably the reason i win 100% with this build. It works without randoming also. Only maps i think are good for PT team are colosseum, garden and hannibal. Can't think of anything else now.
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Most maps aren't GOOD for TP but it can be played and abused and fucked with since most people don't know how to approach it vs GOOD TP players. And TP vs TZ works on any map.
Another point I didn't hammer home enough is that there's literally 0 way to stop someone scouting your 2 fac before depot build. P can just throw up a forge and ONE cannon with his 3 zealots before going to goons. If the Z tries to break it he can just maynard onto it. A good P will always know where the lings are, or his ally will; their probe and scv will be alive in mid or in enemy base watching shit as it happens. He could probably even use the PZ forge vs TZ build and give himself the cannons instead of his ally and still have 2-4 goons when mutas come and range 50% done. That's enough to defend the first 3 mutas easily, and then by the time 5-6 mutas come you'll have 6 goons, etc etc. If you HAVE to you might put up a cannon at your nexus but even then you'll be way ahead of the 6...drones....mining minerals....at the zerg base.
Anyone who has tried to go up a ramp vs a protoss with some zealots and goons with lings/vults while probes are maynarding through knows that it's nigh impossible. The toss wouldn't even worry about losing probes cause he knows the Z has 6 drones on mineral and the T has like 12 scvs.
TP teams don't move out early anyways. The only thing a 1 hatchmuta build accomplishes vs them is forcing them to stay in their base which they would do anyways while they wait for their timing window for machine shop ups to finish and a critical mass to be reached/obs to finish or to expand.
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Why can't either player on the TP team just scout the terran doing the 2 fac before depot build and make 1 cannon then play on with a huge econ advantage?
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On August 04 2009 17:28 NoobsOfWrath wrote:
It seems to me that if you're going to use that build it absolutely must be before 2 goons get out, because 3-5 zealots + 2 goons + maynard probe on the ramp is going to really fuck up any ramp push, and if you've gone 1 hatch you really will only have what like 20 lings at this point? 5zg gets 2 goons out at 4 minutes, so that's not exactly slow. Protoss can afford to lose 6-10 probes to this and he'll still be ahead of T and Z if you do the 2 fac before depot build. If you DON'T do the 2 fac before depot build toss won't even need to maynard anything, not that I'm even sure he would anyways vs the 2 fac before depot.
The p has like 4-5 zeals 0 goons, or 2-3 zeals 1-2 goons if he went 1g, the exact moment when he has 3 vultures at his natural. And he will lose a lot mining time vs 9p with 1g start which slows the 1g start a lot.
Often all the protosses die vs the first 3 vultures if they didn't go forge And if they went forge, your ally didn't need mines and t is easy to kill with tank since he can't go tank him self cuz he is up against very fast muta.
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On August 04 2009 17:36 Valio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2009 17:28 NoobsOfWrath wrote:
It seems to me that if you're going to use that build it absolutely must be before 2 goons get out, because 3-5 zealots + 2 goons + maynard probe on the ramp is going to really fuck up any ramp push, and if you've gone 1 hatch you really will only have what like 20 lings at this point? 5zg gets 2 goons out at 4 minutes, so that's not exactly slow. Protoss can afford to lose 6-10 probes to this and he'll still be ahead of T and Z if you do the 2 fac before depot build. If you DON'T do the 2 fac before depot build toss won't even need to maynard anything, not that I'm even sure he would anyways vs the 2 fac before depot. The p has like 4-5 zeals 0 goons, or 2-3 zeals 1-2 goons if he went 1g, the exact moment when he has 3 vultures at his natural. And he will lose a lot mining time vs 9p with 1g start which slows the 1g start a lot. Often all the protosses die vs the first 3 vultures if they didn't go forge And if they went forge, your ally didn't need mines and t is easy to kill with tank since he can't go tank him self cuz he is up against very fast muta.
Tank doesn't work very well vs wraiths though.
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On August 04 2009 17:36 Valio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2009 17:28 NoobsOfWrath wrote:
It seems to me that if you're going to use that build it absolutely must be before 2 goons get out, because 3-5 zealots + 2 goons + maynard probe on the ramp is going to really fuck up any ramp push, and if you've gone 1 hatch you really will only have what like 20 lings at this point? 5zg gets 2 goons out at 4 minutes, so that's not exactly slow. Protoss can afford to lose 6-10 probes to this and he'll still be ahead of T and Z if you do the 2 fac before depot build. If you DON'T do the 2 fac before depot build toss won't even need to maynard anything, not that I'm even sure he would anyways vs the 2 fac before depot. The p has like 4-5 zeals 0 goons, or 2-3 zeals 1-2 goons if he went 1g, the exact moment when he has 3 vultures at his natural. And he will lose a lot mining time vs 9p with 1g start which slows the 1g start a lot. Often all the protosses die vs the first 3 vultures if they didn't go forge And if they went forge, your ally didn't need mines and t is easy to kill with tank since he can't go tank him self cuz he is up against very fast muta.
So you will allow the protoss to move out without even getting a robo? 3gate goon + a terran that went either wraith or gol vs a 1hatch muta and a low scv count terran with tanks who didnt even get mines?
Ok
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On August 04 2009 17:34 BalloonFight wrote:
Why can't either player on the TP team just scout the terran doing the 2 fac before depot build and make 1 cannon then play on with a huge econ advantage?
Thats what you do against this build. I've played the longest games vs 1 cannon start. If this happens z must control mutal very good and deal a lot of damage to econ and force static defense. Then its muta micro with 1h, scout with lings well. Ally terran 1on2, but enemy terran is contained easily so its very hard for the enemy protoss cuz he needs to survive 1on2.
Usually we contain the terran with turret tanks and the lings that i didn't use. Then we slowly push protoss with rest of the tanks and overlord + muta, while terran is trying to break free from the contain and my ally is getting bigger and bigger advantage on the unit count.
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On August 04 2009 17:40 BalloonFight wrote:
So you will allow the protoss to move out without even getting a robo? 3gate goon + a terran that went either wraith or gol vs a 1hatch muta and a low scv count terran with tanks who didnt even get mines?
Ok
Not really. The t is contained with turret tank and we start pushing protoss. we don't need mines for push.
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On August 04 2009 17:40 Valio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2009 17:34 BalloonFight wrote:
Why can't either player on the TP team just scout the terran doing the 2 fac before depot build and make 1 cannon then play on with a huge econ advantage? Thats what you do against this build. I've played the longest games vs 1 cannon start. If this happens z must control mutal very good and deal a lot of damage to econ and force static defense. Then its muta micro with 1h, scout with lings well. Ally terran 1on2, but enemy terran is contained easily so its very hard for the enemy protoss cuz he needs to survive 1on2. Usually we contain the terran with turret tanks and the lings that i didn't use. Then we slowly push protoss with rest of the tanks and overlord + muta, while terran is trying to break free from the contain and my ally is getting bigger and bigger advantage on the unit count.
But this doesn't work...in a TvT you can't just put a couple cursory units in your contain then go do whatever else you want. You are going to be putting ALL your units into a contain on the enemy T for awhile before you have a mobile unit army that isn't part of the contain. You'll need a LOT of tanks to hold a good terran who knows how to break a contain. In this time that your ally's first tanks are static sitting outside the T base the P will be 1v1ing the 1 hatch muta zerg? And 3 gate goon rapes 1 hatch muta even with some lings.
It's kind of hard to expand to get the money you need as the TZ terran to do this strategy while maintaining enough tanks on the enemy to keep him in AND helping the Z vs the P. Doing this off a 2 fac before depot build...is pretty hard to believe. Really I don't see this strategy working vs competent/experienced TP players. And anyways the T on a TP team isn't going to be massing ground units, he's going to be going wraiths unless there's some weird situation that calls for something else (generally 4 fac vults vs non-fast muta). 2 port wraith is the 100% standard opening vs TZ. It's like 9p pz vs pz. It's used 95% of the time.
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On August 04 2009 17:44 NoobsOfWrath wrote:
But this doesn't work...in a TvT you can't just put a couple cursory units in your contain then go do whatever else you want.
We have muta and lings which have enough mobility to be at p push and terran contain. I can either keep ling or muta at t contain while pushing with the other group. The turret contain is only vs wraith btw. We dont do ebay vs gol start. And its VERY hard for terran to come out vs a team of lings and 1-2 tanks (maybe 1 scv repairing) if the tanks are positioned so that they barely reach the cliff. Even if he gets out he loses a lot of units and is fucked with muta afterwards.
Remember terran also started off with a bunker OR wasted mining time with 2-3 scv on cliff while was forced to do few rines. He also doesn't have the same unit combination for breaking the contain like in a normal 1on1 TvT. If he went gols u can also try to push him with few tanks and vults while harrashing his scvs. Its easier to get up his ramp if u draw half of his gols to his minerals while ally terran pushes up. You go to enemy ramp asap with muta when he comes to minerals with some gols, to help the push. If he didn't bring enough gols just kill them and don't go help the push.
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On August 04 2009 17:48 Valio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2009 17:44 NoobsOfWrath wrote:
But this doesn't work...in a TvT you can't just put a couple cursory units in your contain then go do whatever else you want.
We have muta and lings which have enough mobility to be at p push and terran contain. I can either keep ling or muta at t contain while pushing with the other group. The turret contain is only vs wraith btw. We dont do ebay vs gol start. And its VERY hard for terran to come out vs a team of lings and 1-2 tanks (maybe 1 scv repairing) if the tanks are positioned so that they barely reach the cliff. Even if he gets out he loses a lot of units and is fucked with muta afterwards.
I don't see how you're gonna set up tanks and get a turret going vs cloaked wraiths long before ol speed and before you have even close the number of muta needed to beat 2 port wraith....2 base z muta beats 2 port wraith straight up....1 hatch 6 drone muta does not. 2 port wraith would probably win 2v1 vs a TZ team that did 1 hatch muta + fast tank, actually.
The solution to wraiths is not turrets, it's goliaths and scan.
Clearly the reason you are winning with this strategy is because you are somehow always facing TP teams that DON'T go wraiths which is just dumb because wraith is 100% no doubt the BEST opening vs TZ.
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On August 04 2009 17:34 BalloonFight wrote:
Why can't either player on the TP team just scout the terran doing the 2 fac before depot build and make 1 cannon then play on with a huge econ advantage?
That's what I expected the enemy PP team to do when I tried it on LT.
Thing is, they were pretty noob, so I didn't get much out of using the build. I was on 9:00 pos, so I can wall off with 1 depot+rax. I put my facts in the corner, so I guess the protoss didn't see them. He made the mistake of sending his probe back out, so I followed him with my SCV and walled just as his probe left. ^^;;
The build is also micro-intensive, to the extent that it will be hard to continue macroing (unless you hotky both facts and your building SCV.) This was a problem the second (of only two times) I used it. I don't make much of a habbit of macroing with hotkeys early game. =\
I'm only playing at the D+/C- level, so I could probably exploit this build vs TP teams, since D+/C- TP teams probably don't know what to do.
EDIT: Oh, and vs TZ as TP team, what should I do if the Z goes hydra? Sometimes, I get too focused on maximizing damage with wraiths, that I lose them, don't macro. Also, since gas is the limiting factor, do I just expand after I'm peaking 2port wraith production?
What should protoss be doing? You said 3gg if T is 4 fact vult, and P pressures Z with zeals (or just makes zeals, and shows them to the OL, so Z has to sunken, for the possibility of a break?
How does the mass zeal timing work vs TZ's vult timings? If protoss gets too caught up with zeal pressure on Z, he might get flanked while I'm working on wraiths, or a runby might happen if he's not careful. If an advantage is obtaind with zeal pressure, what does the TP team need to try and do?
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On August 04 2009 17:52 NoobsOfWrath wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2009 17:48 Valio wrote:On August 04 2009 17:44 NoobsOfWrath wrote:
But this doesn't work...in a TvT you can't just put a couple cursory units in your contain then go do whatever else you want.
We have muta and lings which have enough mobility to be at p push and terran contain. I can either keep ling or muta at t contain while pushing with the other group. The turret contain is only vs wraith btw. We dont do ebay vs gol start. And its VERY hard for terran to come out vs a team of lings and 1-2 tanks (maybe 1 scv repairing) if the tanks are positioned so that they barely reach the cliff. Even if he gets out he loses a lot of units and is fucked with muta afterwards. I don't see how you're gonna set up tanks and get a turret going vs cloaked wraiths long before ol speed and before you have even close the number of muta needed to beat 2 port wraith....2 base z muta beats 2 port wraith straight up....1 hatch 6 drone muta does not. 2 port wraith would probably win 2v1 vs a TZ team that did 1 hatch muta + fast tank, actually. The solution to wraiths is not turrets, it's goliaths and scan. Clearly the reason you are winning with this strategy is because you are somehow always facing TP teams that DON'T go wraiths which is just dumb because wraith is 100% no doubt the BEST opening vs TZ.
Hmm.. man.. the muta REALLY wins the 2 port wraith. U have muta before wraith, you can like fly over his ports with scourges and fuck him up. You are correct, the 2 port wraith owns 1h muta in long run, but in the very beginning you have like 2 scourge an 5 muta when he has 2 wraith. You just gotta keep the wraith count low or you get owned. When you are at his base he has almost 4 wraiths. You still win this very easily if you don't waste ur scourges vs 2-3 rines.
Oh and they go wraiths like 90% of the time.
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On August 04 2009 17:54 Thesecretaznman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2009 17:34 BalloonFight wrote:
Why can't either player on the TP team just scout the terran doing the 2 fac before depot build and make 1 cannon then play on with a huge econ advantage? That's what I expected the enemy PP team to do when I tried it on LT. Thing is, they were pretty noob, so I didn't get much out of using the build.
Really don't need to read any further than this then. PP is worse than PT, plus you won't have to worry about wraiths at all. Also if they were pretty noob you can basically do whatever build and usually win if you are just superior in skill.
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On August 04 2009 17:56 Valio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2009 17:52 NoobsOfWrath wrote:On August 04 2009 17:48 Valio wrote:On August 04 2009 17:44 NoobsOfWrath wrote:
But this doesn't work...in a TvT you can't just put a couple cursory units in your contain then go do whatever else you want.
We have muta and lings which have enough mobility to be at p push and terran contain. I can either keep ling or muta at t contain while pushing with the other group. The turret contain is only vs wraith btw. We dont do ebay vs gol start. And its VERY hard for terran to come out vs a team of lings and 1-2 tanks (maybe 1 scv repairing) if the tanks are positioned so that they barely reach the cliff. Even if he gets out he loses a lot of units and is fucked with muta afterwards. I don't see how you're gonna set up tanks and get a turret going vs cloaked wraiths long before ol speed and before you have even close the number of muta needed to beat 2 port wraith....2 base z muta beats 2 port wraith straight up....1 hatch 6 drone muta does not. 2 port wraith would probably win 2v1 vs a TZ team that did 1 hatch muta + fast tank, actually. The solution to wraiths is not turrets, it's goliaths and scan. Clearly the reason you are winning with this strategy is because you are somehow always facing TP teams that DON'T go wraiths which is just dumb because wraith is 100% no doubt the BEST opening vs TZ. Hmm.. man.. the muta REALLY wins the 2 port wraith. U have muta before wraith, you can like fly over his ports with scourges and fuck him up. You are correct, the 2 port wraith owns 1h muta in long run, but in the very beginning you have like 2 scourge an 5 muta when he has 2 wraith. You just gotta keep the wraith count low or you get owned. When you are at his base he has almost 4 wraiths. You still win this very easily if you don't waste ur scourges vs 2-3 rines. Oh and they go wraiths like 90% of the time.
But it's so easy to scout that you're doing it...and like I said earlier wraith is a mineral-abundant strat. It's quite easy to defend vs 1 hatch muta with 2 port wraith when you know it's coming.
Anyways I'm done with this argument. I've made my point like 4 times now so it's clearly pointless to keep arguing.
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On August 04 2009 18:02 NoobsOfWrath wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2009 17:56 Valio wrote:On August 04 2009 17:52 NoobsOfWrath wrote:On August 04 2009 17:48 Valio wrote:On August 04 2009 17:44 NoobsOfWrath wrote:
But this doesn't work...in a TvT you can't just put a couple cursory units in your contain then go do whatever else you want.
We have muta and lings which have enough mobility to be at p push and terran contain. I can either keep ling or muta at t contain while pushing with the other group. The turret contain is only vs wraith btw. We dont do ebay vs gol start. And its VERY hard for terran to come out vs a team of lings and 1-2 tanks (maybe 1 scv repairing) if the tanks are positioned so that they barely reach the cliff. Even if he gets out he loses a lot of units and is fucked with muta afterwards. I don't see how you're gonna set up tanks and get a turret going vs cloaked wraiths long before ol speed and before you have even close the number of muta needed to beat 2 port wraith....2 base z muta beats 2 port wraith straight up....1 hatch 6 drone muta does not. 2 port wraith would probably win 2v1 vs a TZ team that did 1 hatch muta + fast tank, actually. The solution to wraiths is not turrets, it's goliaths and scan. Clearly the reason you are winning with this strategy is because you are somehow always facing TP teams that DON'T go wraiths which is just dumb because wraith is 100% no doubt the BEST opening vs TZ. Hmm.. man.. the muta REALLY wins the 2 port wraith. U have muta before wraith, you can like fly over his ports with scourges and fuck him up. You are correct, the 2 port wraith owns 1h muta in long run, but in the very beginning you have like 2 scourge an 5 muta when he has 2 wraith. You just gotta keep the wraith count low or you get owned. When you are at his base he has almost 4 wraiths. You still win this very easily if you don't waste ur scourges vs 2-3 rines. Oh and they go wraiths like 90% of the time. But it's so easy to scout that you're doing it...and like I said earlier wraith is a mineral-abundant strat. It's quite easy to defend vs 1 hatch muta with 2 port wraith when you know it's coming. Anyways I'm done with this argument. I've made my point like 4 times now so it's clearly pointless to keep arguing.
I get your point man. If i were to play for win i would probably choose normal build, but this is for faster ranking and its proven its self very realiable anyway.
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EPT
