EPT
.thx in advance.
! [G] 2on2 For Dummies (Youtube Channel) - Page 2
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Goose-
Belgium65 Posts
.thx in advance. | ||
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Star.Dj
United States71 Posts
I don't really have much advice to give for PT teams other than always have a Zerg in the mix. If you're looking to improve as PT though, I suggest downloading any PT replays you can find of White-Ra/Strelok. | ||
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LuMiX
China5757 Posts
On June 26 2009 14:35 Star.Dj wrote: All in all both mech and bio require micro to be useful. If a player is poor with control I highly recommend using neither and switching to Protoss. haha, nice statement from fellow terran player! ^_^ | ||
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Severedevil
United States4836 Posts
Short answer: TP vs. TZ, damage your opponents before 2hatch mutas arrive. Protoss sucks against TZ until Protoss techs, so either rush or Protoss has to tech. If you do not rush before vultures come out, Zerg gets his expansion + 1-2 sunkens to secure it, so you'll be screwed when he gets mutas with two hatcheries and two gas unless you can damage him or his Terran first. 2hatch Mutaling + Vulture/Tank dominates pretty much any army you can field. Sure, if your opponents fuck up you can get epic flanks & mine drags with speedlots or something, but that's hardly reliable. You can try Dragoon/Vulture, Dragoon/Goliath, Speedlot/Vulture, or Speedlot/Goliath (before Muta/Siege Tank arrive) but they're very hard. (1gas Sair can beat 2gas Zerg Muta/Scourge, but that's a bitch and is awfully vulnerable to hydra tech switch. You have to decisively win an air battle with it, or there's no hope.) You might be able to expand both players if you cannon/tank on your ridges, but don't count on that either... they attack the Protoss, snipe the tanks, and it's all over. Your goal is to slow down 2hatch Mutaling + Vulture/Tank. (Unless the Zerg goes hydra instead of Muta, or doesn't take his expo, in which case the match-up isn't hard at all.) If you don't blitz, you need a tech attack that comes before Spire. Fortunately, both Terran and Protoss can easily turtle until Muta/Siege arrive, provided Protoss builds a cannon at his ramp and you don't get caught with your pants down by a hydra/vulture rush. Terran wraith tech is particularly noteworthy, because if done well it forces Goliaths and Hydralisk and spores and Overlord Speed. If you can control the air with wraith, a Protoss anti-terran ground army should win you the game. (Or harass off one starport, and get some metal, that's fine too.) Other tech styles (1-base Sair/Reaver, Reaver Drop-->Ground Army, DT drop) may also work but I recommend wraith-play. The biggest risk with wraiths is that they suck at straight-up fights. But you weren't going to win a straight-up fight anyway, because 2hatch Mutaling + Vulture/Tank is a murderous rapefest, so you're not sacrificing much. | ||
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LuMiX
China5757 Posts
also- no tz team will switch tech from mutalisks to hydralisk vs a tp army... | ||
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
On June 01 2009 21:22 Valio wrote: the zp vs zt @hannibal is now uploaded and its still processing. It is A A- vs A A+ or so star.dj + ifu.valio vs imbabo + esc.drewbie 'holy fuck and I mean that sincerely | ||
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Severedevil
United States4836 Posts
On June 27 2009 14:49 Metal[x] wrote: wraiths don't force hydralisks...are you on crack? mutalisks deal with wraiths really easily o_O Uh... unless I really am on crack, wraith arrives significantly before muta, forcing hydras, spores, or both. Were you suggesting a 1-base muta tech? Furthermore, mutalisk vs. wraith micro is epic and very difficult on both sides, due to cloak and the wraith range advantage. Mutalisk certainly do NOT deal with wraiths easily until reliable detection. (Speed overlord. One comsat probably won't cut it.) On June 27 2009 14:49 Metal[x] wrote:also- no tz team will switch tech from mutalisks to hydralisk vs a tp army... Depends on the TP's army composition. If they spend deep on anti-air, as was the example, a tech switch makes sense. On June 26 2009 14:35 Star.Dj wrote: All in all both mech and bio require micro to be useful. If a player is poor with control I highly recommend using neither and switching to Protoss. Uhh... 2v2 mech micro is not very hard. The armies don't get big enough to suffer the, "Oh no, my APM can't handle all this minelaying and tankhopping" that Terrans seems to suffer from, and Vultures and Goliaths (which is usually the bulk of the army, because emplaced tanks are so vulnerable) are much easier than the other races' unit set. PZ vs. PZ, by contrast, is a microfest. At its least demanding, it's a 1-base ZvZ and a 1-base PvP going on simultaneously. | ||
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anderoo
Canada1876 Posts
On June 27 2009 15:21 Severedevil wrote: Uh... unless I really am on crack, wraith arrives significantly before muta, forcing hydras, spores, or both. Were you suggesting a 1-base muta tech? as opposed to a 12h 3 hatch muta build in a 2v2? | ||
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Severedevil
United States4836 Posts
2-hatch muta is normal in every 2v2 match-up involving Zerg. Normally, the second hatch will be in the main or at the ramp, and often starts after Lair, but against PT you get an expansion on a silver platter. 1-hatch muta is of course an option with PZ/TZ/ZZ vs. PZ/TZ/ZZ, but you have to do a lot of damage/force a lot of sunkens or you'll be outmassed. I doubt it's viable against TP... you'd be outmassed by an absurd margin. | ||
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Star.Dj
United States71 Posts
On June 27 2009 15:21 Severedevil wrote: Uhh... 2v2 mech micro is not very hard. The armies don't get big enough to suffer the, "Oh no, my APM can't handle all this minelaying and tankhopping" that Terrans seems to suffer from, and Vultures and Goliaths (which is usually the bulk of the army, because emplaced tanks are so vulnerable) are much easier than the other races' unit set. PZ vs. PZ, by contrast, is a microfest. At its least demanding, it's a 1-base ZvZ and a 1-base PvP going on simultaneously. What? I never said that mech T is harder or easier than playing any race, any matchup, or anything. All races in all match ups in all game types require micro. The whole switching to Protoss thing wasn't directed at mech but towards bionic as well; specifically being aimed towards lower skilled players (talking D - C). A low skilled player will struggle a lot more with T than they will with P. TZ vs PZ using bionic, for example, is hard as hell when first learning it. Learning when to scan in order to kill a dark templar. I remember this was my biggest problem; I'd scan whenever a marine died to a DT. You'll find you run out of scans real fast, especially if the Protoss knows how to use the DT. Instead its better to stim & then scan while moving in the direction of the DT. This way, even if it tries to run you'll either trap it or have enough marines in range to kill it. Difficult? No. But if you're slow, inexperienced, or just too lazy to react they can eat you alive. Another example is bionic vs storm. Good luck to a D ranked player with 3 groups of marines versus even 1 templar with 150 energy. Or against a Protoss with excellent dragoon micro. If you are inexperienced using marines vs dragoons they destroy you with very little losses. As for mech there's a huge difference between using vulture micro well and using it poorly/not at all. You can take out a handful of lings with only one vulture or you can kill nothing and lose the vulture. Using mech against PZ is very micro intensive because you need to either cut off the enemy Zerg's reinforcements or eliminate a lot of them (using only vultures). If you fail to do this and your ally is only matching the enemy zerg's ling count then you will lose any all out confrontation (lings = lings, goons > vultures). No idea where you are getting the no tanks thing from. Tanks are useful in every matchup (mech OR bionic) but not as needed in TZ vs ZZ (having an ally with mutalisks rox lurkers sox so you can SK terran). Bottom line is all match ups are hard and micro intensive on high levels. On low levels though (again, D ~ C) you'll find that Protoss players are having it easier than Terrans (assuming they are same skill level) because their level of micro is lower or non existent. | ||
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LuMiX
China5757 Posts
On June 27 2009 15:21 Severedevil wrote: Uh... unless I really am on crack, wraith arrives significantly before muta, forcing hydras, spores, or both. Were you suggesting a 1-base muta tech? Depends on the TP's army composition. If they spend deep on anti-air, as was the example, a tech switch makes sense. I have never seen a wraith build that forces a zerg to change his whole gameplan from mutalisk to hydralisk. sure maybe a spore or two but definitely not a full change into hydralisk. No TP army will be so heavily dependent on anti-air units that it will ever be viable to go hydralisk. Lets think of all the things that easily counter a full ground army from TZ (templars, mass tanks). by making the zerg go mutalisk it at least forces the terran to get some goliaths if he techs (plus, you have mobility and map control with mutalisk) Also, most zergs will play a 9p speed into 2h on ramp vs TP. It's just more safe and well, more safe... Then again they can always make the 3rd to nat and the terran can protect them, but most of the games are 2h on ramp into lair while getting lings. | ||
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Severedevil
United States4836 Posts
I'm having trouble understanding how TP vs. TZ is difficult if the Zerg plays low. Is the plan for Z to buy time for T to expand and overwhelm the other two? | ||
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Goose-
Belgium65 Posts
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Valio
Finland77 Posts
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Valio
Finland77 Posts
what u mean? | ||
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Valio
Finland77 Posts
On June 27 2009 15:24 anderoo wrote: as opposed to a 12h 3 hatch muta build in a 2v2? Wraith comes a bit later than muta if zerg goes 9pool straight lair which can be used in zt vs pt forexample. The build is a normal 9pool with ONLY lings. No drones. After you put your lair up you take 1 drone from gas to minerals and go for speed AFTER lair. when your allies vultures are about to come out u can do +2 drones and put 1 back to gas going straight spire ofc. Muta in 2v2 is faster than wraith indeed. | ||
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Valio
Finland77 Posts
On June 27 2009 15:56 Severedevil wrote: 2-hatch muta is normal in every 2v2 match-up involving Zerg. Normally, the second hatch will be in the main or at the ramp, and often starts after Lair, but against PT you get an expansion on a silver platter. 1-hatch muta is of course an option with PZ/TZ/ZZ vs. PZ/TZ/ZZ, but you have to do a lot of damage/force a lot of sunkens or you'll be outmassed. I doubt it's viable against TP... you'd be outmassed by an absurd margin. 1h muta is good vs pt actually with a terran ally. Just 9pool mass ling/straight spire without drones. When vultures are out add few drones and start massing muta while ally goes tank/mine contain while u deny enemy from exping and harrash them. You're muta is faster than their wraith or corsair (Yes they actually do corsair for example on hannibal) and opponent terran will have slower tank bcos he needs gols and ur ally doesn't. You can do this with a low econ build for terran too. It goes like this. 8 gas 10rax 10fac 10fac 10depo 10depo... mass vult. You will have lings and fast muta. Enemy protoss will need shit load of photon to def vs ur initial 8 muta. You can kill 2 photon on ramp easily with 8 muta and break in with vulture ling after. he also needs more than 2 photon to his main. That kinda makes it 6 photon to stay alive. Goons are not fast enough vs 8gas vulture build if you want to survive vs 9pool. Oh.. btw the second hatch often does not start after Lair. | ||
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doktorLucifer
United States855 Posts
You make 2 depot then start vults? When exactly can it be used, and how much faster is it then a 14fac? (I felt you weren't particularly clear on that.) | ||
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Light]N[exuS
Hong Kong42 Posts
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Valio
Finland77 Posts
On July 19 2009 06:41 Light]N[exuS wrote: That build is extremely bad. I've only seen it used against me a few times in 2v2 games, and it was only on colosseum, and the vults were only a few seconds faster than mine. It's absolute garbage on any map where there isn't a super open choke, and if there is, only vs the T in a TZ vs TZ. Well I doubt you've been against this build then if the vultures were only couple seconds earlier than urs. If its done right you'll have 3-4 vultures at enemy natural when enemy has 1 vulture ready. It is used vs pt and pp, especially on maps like vampire. Sometimes I use it vs zp and zt on vampire but only vs low teams, just to rank up faster. But why u say only vs T in zt vs zt match up? This build doesn't give you the econ to go against zt. Vs zt its only a cheese which never works on high level. On the other hand, vs pt and pp, it gives you huge advantage right from the beginning. This build requires you to cut some scv production, but vs pp and tp you only cut scv before the initial 2-4 vultures depending on the situation. After this you are free to build your econ and go mines same time. Enemy p has wasted tons of minerals going photons and hes observatory is going to be very late (if he didn't go photons you can just a-move to him with like 4 vultures and the lings you have, cuz by this time he has like ~4-5 zeals and 2-3 goons, try to damage the zeals as much as possible with vultures before you go in with the lings, save as many as possible against the goons. Enemy terran needs to go straight gols after bunkering his cliff or wasting gathering time keeping shitload of scvs on his cliff and he can't leave his base before he has turrets because your zerg ally has muta. By the time enemy protoss has observers, his terran ally is contained with tanks and you are pretty much 2on1 vs the protoss. Just make sure terran can't get a drop ship out of his base cuz thats the only thing he can do. Its extremely hard to survive vs this build if the zerg has good mutacontrol / harrash and doesn't waste mutas like a B- player. | ||
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