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2 Gate 5 Zealot Expand
The idea of this build is that initially it just looks like a standard 2 gateway zealot pressure but you opt for an early expansion which gives you a very strong mid game economy and army assuming all goes well. The build order below is primarily for playing against the standard zealot -> cybernetics core -> zealot openings. It opens up with an economical 10/12 gateway and while it is possible to do other openings, you are not really looking to get zealots out quickly to do damage so this is the best way to do it.
Your first zealot should block the ramp. If your opponent doesn't get a scout in, hide your other zealots until you have 5 then move out. Otherwise if the scouting probe does get in, use your initial zealot to it while sending the subsequent zealots to your opponent's base. The idea is to put pressure on your opponent and force them to over make zealots and make unnecessary shield batteries. It is important not to lose any zealots early on recklessly since you are stopping 4 zealots worth of production while your nexus goes up and you are vulnerable during that period.
Build order:
- 8 pylon
- 10 gateway *Send probe for scouting.
- 12 gateway
- 13 zealot
- 16 pylon
- 18 zealot
- 20 zealot
- 22 pylon
- 23 zealot
- 25 zealot
- 28 nexus *Stop zealot production. (See scouting note below)
- 28 pylon at natural
- 29 gas
- Cybernetics core
- Continue zealot production until your cybernetics core goes up.
- Start dragoon production.
- Forge
- Cannons if needed.
Scouting:
There are two key scouting points early on in the game when you're doing this build.
Entering the opponent's base for the first time:
React accordingly to what you scout.
- 2 gateways: You want to keep making zealots after you put down your nexus and delay the gas and core slightly. Usually this just means making a round of zealots before putting gas and core down.
- Zealot -> Cybernetics core -> Zealot: Proceed with the build order.
- Cybernetics core first: Make sure you don't lose any zealots early on since if he gets goons out quickly and uses probes to defend he will have a much higher dragoon count and you need the zealots to tank for your own dragoons.
- Nexus first: In this case you can either deviate from this build and keep making zealots to pressure and kill the nexus or you can just follow the build order. With pressure from zealots you can even out any advantage your opponent gains from going early nexus.
- Not being able to scout: It gets tricky here but you should be able to poke a bit with your zealots and force your way up the ramp to determine the build. You can also just base it on what you see at the ramp and comparing to what you have.
When the opponent moves out of his base:
During this period it is important to determine what your opponent's follow up is. You can hide probes around the map and when you see his units moving out move them in to see. If opponent has units preventing that then you have to see if they have dragoon range. If no dragoon range, this will most likely mean your opponent isn't doing an allin with mass dragoons. In this case, be observant with the scouting unit you have outside your opponent's base as it could be either reavers or dark templars. If you're still unsure of what's going on it's best to put down a cannon in the main and get robo off of 2 gates.
In the case that you do get a scout into your opponent's base here is what you should look out for:
- 3/4 gateway dragoon: If you scout 3/4 gateways, cut probe production so that you can throw down an additional 2 more gateways and continue making dragoons. Alternatively you can quickly get cannons up. One cannon can knock out a dragoon and still have about 20% of its health remaining. You want them in a line parallel to your choke to maximise the amount of damage they can do.
- Dark templar: Quickly place cannons. If you don't think the cannons are going to make it on time throw down an additional cannon in your main and wall off your natural. Be careful though they might be able to take out your cannons and sneak dts in so throw down additional cannons if you're not feeling confident.
- Speedlots: Your reaction will be similar to when you are facing dark templars. Create a wall off and put down enough cannons to stop the zealots. A good number is five cannons but make more if you feel unsafe.
- Reaver: Stop probe production so you can add additional gateways. 4/5 gateways should be enough but if your opponent waits for 2 reavers you will have time to add more gateways. Have your dragoons spread out in such a way that you are able to sandwich his units if he tries to attack. Alternatively you can add robo after two gateways and delay while getting your own reaver out.
- Proxy robo reaver: This is similar to when you are facing reavers. If you are lucky and scout this, try to kill the robo if possible.
- Dark templar drop: Make cannons in your base to stop any drops. To be safe, make 2 cannons and position some units over the cannons as 4 DTs dropped directly on the cannons can still take out 2 cannons. If needed make extra cannons to cover your gateways as well so you don't get DTs killing pylons and unpowering gates although you could just make the gateways closer to your nexus and have those cannons covering the gates as well.
- 3/4 gateway zealot: If this isn't proxied you will have time to cut probe production for making a wall off at your natural with gateways and forge like in PvZ. Place cannons behind and fill up the gaps with zealots or probes. Otherwise you should be pulling probes and using them in addition to zealots to try to defend. If the numbers are overwhelming give up your natural since they have to cut probe production to support 4 gateways on 1 base and you might be still able to play from that situation if you didn't suffer too many losses.
Replays:
I realise that it is a lot to read through so watch the replays and comeback to this if it is all too confusing.  Feel free to try this build out, post your replays here and I will add them.
A small replay pack: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?ba4dlif3ldkdv23
FPVOD: http://www.twitch.tv/fold_/b/337766227?t=120m I do the same build twice.
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Nice guide, the only thing is that I believe when doing this build and going up against reavers, it is best to do this build and go templar tech and make 1 dt, then fast tech to storm, get as many HT as possible to stop the reaver push, because a good reaver push with 2-3 gateways, and if the protoss controls properly, most of the time you cannot stop dragoon reaver with your own dragoons and zealots, even if you expanded and rushed to 4-5 gateways or more, I have tried multiple times.
Any time I went up against this build vs good korean players they will always make 1-2 dt then fast tech to storm because that stops the reaver pushes a lot easier, and puts you far ahead undoubtably unless you mess up. The only issue that would arise would be them going for speed shuttle reaver harass in your main then back around to your natural or visa versa, but that can be stopped with extra cannons or a few dragoons pumped before the DT, after the zealots. I am actually almost 100% positive that the best transition with this build would be to get 1-2 dt then fast tech to storm and play accordingly afterwards, a good player will punish you very hard for just expanding and trying to outmacro him by only building dragoons and zealots, reavers are too good. I have done this build many times and you will 90%++ have storm before the reaver push comes if you go about it correctly, you will come out on top with a big advantage, and that is when the outmacroing should begin.
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Updated with replays: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?ba4dlif3ldkdv23
On November 09 2012 05:56 GGzerG wrote:
Nice guide, the only thing is that I believe when doing this build and going up against reavers, it is best to do this build and go templar tech and make 1 dt, then fast tech to storm, get as many HT as possible to stop the reaver push, because a good reaver push with 2-3 gateways, and if the protoss controls properly, most of the time you cannot stop dragoon reaver with your own dragoons and zealots, even if you expanded and rushed to 4-5 gateways or more, I have tried multiple times.
Any time I went up against this build vs good korean players they will always make 1-2 dt then fast tech to storm because that stops the reaver pushes a lot easier, and puts you far ahead undoubtably unless you mess up. The only issue that would arise would be them going for speed shuttle reaver harass in your main then back around to your natural or visa versa, but that can be stopped with extra cannons or a few dragoons pumped before the DT, after the zealots. I am actually almost 100% positive that the best transition with this build would be to get 1-2 dt then fast tech to storm and play accordingly afterwards, a good player will punish you very hard for just expanding and trying to outmacro him by only building dragoons and zealots, reavers are too good. I have done this build many times and you will 90%++ have storm before the reaver push comes if you go about it correctly, you will come out on top with a big advantage, and that is when the outmacroing should begin.
I had a lot of trouble with reavers before when I was doing forge right after nexus and putting down 3+ cannons early so I adjusted it and get core first now, your dragoons will come out much earlier than compared to previously and you'll end up with much more dragoons.
The key thing is just to micro well, you should be targeting enemy goons and spreading out your own goons. Only target reavers if you have a chance to kill it.
I'll give your idea a try but I think the DT comes out too late, they will already have obs and the timing with storm will also be late but if you have a replay I'd like to see it.
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dont do dt into ht to defend reaver cause theres this thing called micro and you can pick up the reaver and move it in the shuttle and dodge the 1 or 2 storms that you have.
what i found from playing around with the 12nexus gw forge pvp build is that its best to follow up with robo before goon range near the natural so your reavers come when his reavers arrive (also goon range wont really finish @ bust timing if its 4gw all in anyway), you can also get ob to defend all in dt drops and so on. The main problem is that if you do an econ build you dont want to backtrack your tech to slow down your mid game push (ie if you do expo follow up, a 4-5 gw goon or speed zlot is a stronger push but it just leaves you more exposed to a few things)
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On November 09 2012 16:11 dRaW wrote:
dont do dt into ht to defend reaver cause theres this thing called micro and you can pick up the reaver and move it in the shuttle and dodge the 1 or 2 storms that you have.
what i found from playing around with the 12nexus gw forge pvp build is that its best to follow up with robo before goon range near the natural so your reavers come when his reavers arrive (also goon range wont really finish @ bust timing if its 4gw all in anyway), you can also get ob to defend all in dt drops and so on. The main problem is that if you do an econ build you dont want to backtrack your tech to slow down your mid game push (ie if you do expo follow up, a 4-5 gw goon or speed zlot is a stronger push but it just leaves you more exposed to a few things)
Well I am saying that if you know or strongly believe that he is going robo you can just make 1 DT to keep him in his main / make another ob and delay his push, or even make him back off if he trys to attack you before obs comes, I have before several times by the time of the reaver push's arrival, had 3-4 storms before, the DT isnt meant to do damage it is meant to buy yourself more time to outmacro him and buy more time for HT energy.
in PvP I prefer to start out the game with speed zealot, archon, HT storm, and lighter amount of dragoons, faster upgrade, and try to get setup for a stronger push once the natural expansion kicks in, with a lot of zealot / archon / storm, a lot of the time when the player drops his reaver he will not have the shuttle right on top of it so when you storm the reaver, the shuttle will recieve damage as well, and shuttles die to storm really fast. I know you are a lot better than me dRaW but I am just trying to give my insight on the way I have always played this build.
edit : Im going to search for some replays of other people than me doing this build
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Can't say that I have faced this often myself... but given how late your gas is, I expect you to have a lot of difficulty with ranged goons.
@GGzerg. Any DT must surely be far far too late to buy time vs robo.
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1773 Posts
I wanna see some ggzerg vs korean clan team member reps! :D do you have any vs name clan members? that would be really cool!
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Soo if I scout my opponent doing this how do I react?
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On November 11 2012 18:23 thezanursic wrote:
Soo if I scout my opponent doing this how do I react?
It'll depend on how you reacted when you saw the 2 gate. Most importantly you should try to keep your probe alive so you can scout the nexus going down. When you see that, you can safely push down the ramp.
If you made a 2nd gate and a lot of zealots then don't try to go for any allin, it's already too late for that and won't work even if unscouted so just expand and play defensively until you have a decent sized force. I would get DTs or reavers to defend against any mass gate push.
If you stayed on 1 gate and got your core up, you can try to go for an attack with reavers/proxy reavers but this is a lot of micro or you can just expand and again play defensively. If you have dragoons put some pressure on your opponent and abuse that timing when he doesn't have range yet to snipe some units.
You might be slightly behind economically but it doesn't really matter that much in PvP. You can still come back with good harass or hit good timings or just win battles convincingly.
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every pvp is very map based, even if this bo shoud work on same maps i do not raccomand to play like it. This strategy was used a lot on blue storm, but even there you were many times making more then 5 zealots before expanding. I feel this bo puts you completly blind vs any decent protoss and can force you to overreact. While vs a nexust fist bo you will not be able to put any tipe of pressure and will play behind economicly.
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What happens when you play against an opponent who can micro goons without taking hits from Zealots? It's not a skill a lot of Protoss practice these days, but if you have the timing you can kill more or less infinite zealots. Same problem with lings vs vultures.
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I guess what you could do is have one or two zealots annoy the drags, while the others try to get probe kills in order to balance out the economic disadvantage....you'd prolly have to reinforce with more zealots and delay your nexus...I play Zerg tho so dunno.:.and personally I think 1 Gate Core is superior xD
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On November 13 2012 10:43 Chef wrote:
What happens when you play against an opponent who can micro goons without taking hits from Zealots? It's not a skill a lot of Protoss practice these days, but if you have the timing you can kill more or less infinite zealots. Same problem with lings vs vultures.
With your zealots you can buy a lot of time to get dragoons of your own. If they go core first and only use probes plus a zealot to defend, you should be able to move up the ramp losing at most 1 zealot. Zealots inside their base chasing dragoons should waste enough time for you to get up cannons and/or an army capable of defending any counters.
If they do zealot core zealot, you don't try to go up the ramp, stay below the ramp with your five zealots and position them in such a way that they will all be attacking if any units try to move down the ramp. You delay the counter and can get units to defend. There isn't a hard rule though, if you see them position their zealots poorly and you can get three of yours attacking two of theirs then go for it. Just don't trade evenly.
Maybe you can find a situation where opponent has a lot of goons but you have nothing but zealots?
On November 13 2012 11:31 asiantraceur wrote:
I guess what you could do is have one or two zealots annoy the drags, while the others try to get probe kills in order to balance out the economic disadvantage....you'd prolly have to reinforce with more zealots and delay your nexus...I play Zerg tho so dunno.:.and personally I think 1 Gate Core is superior xD
You have an earlier nexus so there really isn't any need to do economic disadvantage but if you can, then go for it.
On November 12 2012 05:41 ajmbek wrote:
every pvp is very map based, even if this bo shoud work on same maps i do not raccomand to play like it. This strategy was used a lot on blue storm, but even there you were many times making more then 5 zealots before expanding. I feel this bo puts you completly blind vs any decent protoss and can force you to overreact. While vs a nexust fist bo you will not be able to put any tipe of pressure and will play behind economicly.
With nexus first you'll have always have less zealots than the person going 2 gate so use that. You can delay mining for quite a bit.
In standard pvp after your scouting probe dies in their base, you don't get any more scouting info. If you don't even get a probe in then you can't really tell what they do. Good protoss will hide how many zealots they have and can fake core first builds. With this build if they try to do that you will have enough zealots to force them to bring out any hidden zealots and if they don't have any you can just go up the ramp and scout.
Afterwards when your initial zealots die you won't know what they're doing but that's exactly the same as if you do more standard openings.
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I meant the fact that two gate puts you at a tech and economic disadvantage to one gate core
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On November 14 2012 14:42 asiantraceur wrote:
I meant the fact that two gate puts you at a tech and economic disadvantage to one gate core
Tech will be slower but you're continously pumping probes, only cutting them when you put down the nexus. Afterwards you continue to make probes unless you need to cut to get gates/tech up.
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On November 14 2012 14:42 asiantraceur wrote:
I meant the fact that two gate puts you at a tech and economic disadvantage to one gate core
This build puts you at an economic advantage compared to most 1 gate core builds. Your tech is slower though.
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I am pretty sure I've seen this build ONCE in proleague !!
Cant remember oh well...
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Fold you are wron :p
With a standard bo your obz will be in time to scaut all you need, with your bo you dont even go obz early...
And early nexus into 2 gate will have no less zealots then a 10/12 gate into 5zealots nexus... I had many situations fighting 13 nexus vs 10/12 gates and viceversa. If you dont belive me we can test it and then put the replay here.
But once again pvp is extrealmy map based and your blind bo seems to not adapt differently to different maps.
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On November 15 2012 18:54 ajmbek wrote:
Fold you are wron :p
With a standard bo your obz will be in time to scaut all you need, with your bo you dont even go obz early...
And early nexus into 2 gate will have no less zealots then a 10/12 gate into 5zealots nexus... I had many situations fighting 13 nexus vs 10/12 gates and viceversa. If you dont belive me we can test it and then put the replay here.
But once again pvp is extrealmy map based and your blind bo seems to not adapt differently to different maps.
its not blind at all, you use the zealots to scout. This build almost always guarantees mid game transition, also its very common at 1200 pvp for 10-12gw, you don't have to win the game with it and you are only behind in tech, the faster expand is used to equalize.
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EPT
