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On November 16 2012 08:39 dRaW wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 18:54 ajmbek wrote:
Fold you are wron :p
With a standard bo your obz will be in time to scaut all you need, with your bo you dont even go obz early...
And early nexus into 2 gate will have no less zealots then a 10/12 gate into 5zealots nexus... I had many situations fighting 13 nexus vs 10/12 gates and viceversa. If you dont belive me we can test it and then put the replay here.
But once again pvp is extrealmy map based and your blind bo seems to not adapt differently to different maps. its not blind at all, you use the zealots to scout. This build almost always guarantees mid game transition, also its very common at 1200 pvp for 10-12gw, you don't have to win the game with it and you are only behind in tech, the faster expand is used to equalize.
the 5 zealots push is used asap so at time you came to opponent base, if you manage to cross the ramp, you cant see his reaction to your nexus after the 5th zealot. I do not know what "common at 1200 pvp" means, but eny good p will be able to keep the probe alive forever in your base vs this bo, while your scaut dies before seeing reacition, that expains the blindness.
I know that the bo does not presume to win the game, but what i say is that is a step into a loss at a decent pvp level, exept on some specific maps like blue storm or peaks of beakdu, but the OP does not speak about maps at all, with are very important in choosing the bo in a pvp game.
The midgame transitions you claim as guaranteeded are supposed to be a defensiv counter of what you think you opponent will counter you, knowing that pvp is the most lucky based mu in sc you can't go playing bling versus an opponent that will be free to choose the early game he prefers and to force you into the midgame at his tempo with vision of your base.
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On November 16 2012 09:22 ajmbek wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 08:39 dRaW wrote:On November 15 2012 18:54 ajmbek wrote:
Fold you are wron :p
With a standard bo your obz will be in time to scaut all you need, with your bo you dont even go obz early...
And early nexus into 2 gate will have no less zealots then a 10/12 gate into 5zealots nexus... I had many situations fighting 13 nexus vs 10/12 gates and viceversa. If you dont belive me we can test it and then put the replay here.
But once again pvp is extrealmy map based and your blind bo seems to not adapt differently to different maps. its not blind at all, you use the zealots to scout. This build almost always guarantees mid game transition, also its very common at 1200 pvp for 10-12gw, you don't have to win the game with it and you are only behind in tech, the faster expand is used to equalize. the 5 zealots push is used asap so at time you came to opponent base, if you manage to cross the ramp, you cant see his reaction to your nexus after the 5th zealot. I do not know what "common at 1200 pvp" means, but eny good p will be able to keep the probe alive forever in your base vs this bo, while your scaut dies before seeing reacition, that expains the blindness. I know that the bo does not presume to win the game, but what i say is that is a step into a loss at a decent pvp level, exept on some specific maps like blue storm or peaks of beakdu, but the OP does not speak about maps at all, with are very important in choosing the bo in a pvp game. The midgame transitions you claim as guaranteeded are supposed to be a defensiv counter of what you think you opponent will counter you, knowing that pvp is the most lucky based mu in sc you can't go playing bling versus an opponent that will be free to choose the early game he prefers and to force you into the midgame at his tempo with vision of your base.
well you can get to a- with this build, you don't need to go any higher. half the time they dont scout you and you dont scout them, you block your ramp with 1st zlot then push when you have 5 zlots or 3 and 2 on the way, if they didnt scout you 100% you will get up their ramp with micro. It's also not hard to kill a probe when they are distracted, most players who are as good as what you are talking about don't multitask well enough to keep a probe a live and defend their ramp at the same time.
there are also many many tricks, i.e you will have better mineral econ so you can afford to put a few hidden zlots on the map along side with probe scouting to see when he is pushing. You mention pvp being a lot about hiding your build and so on, but since it's pvp you should also know exactly what they are capable at almost every step of the way because you both build the same units: therefore prepare accordingly after each scouting interval...
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You must have missed me completly, even Fold is able to keep a probe alive and defend the ramp, i am > of Fold, so i am not speaking of low level pvp, i dont know what is your pvp level, but at mine it is really not hard to scaut vs a zelot first bo. Once again, map is important, on 2 players map, or on small maps like piton you will always scaut in time a 10/12.
Getting a- with this bo? challange accepted! do that and post here the replay pack and i will shut up.
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Can you expand a bit on why you think map is so important in PvP? Can you also post a replay where you do this build and it fails because of the map?
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Didn't Jaehoon did a similar opening only a much earlier expo vs Best or is it compltly differnt?
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I can not post a replay of me doign this bo and failing, i played this bo only on bs, because it is bo specificli desined to be played on this map, maybe i can find in some old folder a rep of me doing that and winning on national wcg, will try.
Map is important because pvp is really much about timing, and on different maps timings can be different. Most common pvp bos are some sorts of zcorez or to be less specific 1 gate tech
on a small map like piton it is much more usual to see 2gates, you can look an episond of battle.net attack where bisu clearly says that progamers agree that 2gate is better on piton then other openings.
While on a map like othello it is relly standard to go fast obz and river, you can say it is standard pvp generally speaking, and it is true, but othello have this nice cliffs all along the middle and bihind natural, and more important starting positions can be imbalanced, in the way that if you are spawned in counter clockwise you have a small advantage. So not only map is important but even positions.
You surelly agree that you will play differently on flat maps and on ramp maps, and on 2 or 4 player maps... different openings pushs to different midgames. FS: to speak about a bit more popular map nowdays is really easy defendable so it is usual to go for a faster expansion, and sometimes more reasky, cuz the brige is easy defendable and minerals in main are not near an edge so with pilons well positioned you cen react tin time and escape any harass, on fs people tend to take also an early 3rd.
It is similar at destination, but here bridges are smaller and pushing with river is harder so dt openings are much more popular, here are also popular cheeses because map offers many positions to hide gates, and you can also play iperagressive gates in opponent main.
Longinus is also a very specific pvp map, you can see more often contains here, out of early 2-3-4 gate goons, witch i hope you will agree are not that often on fs, also the midgame can see more zealot army, for 2 reasons, the 3rd will be a min only, and the main has more then usual amount of mineral patches, so a zealot have army is easy to make, also you dont have good choke or highground to defend 3rd and in that wide goons are a bit less effective.
I am sorry for speaking about a bit older maps, but i am not really active the last 2 years so i dont know standards on thouse new maps 
There are of course exeptions, based on some details, like the fact that tau cross beeing a flat map is not played like a falt, because of the cliff from where ranged goons can hit gas and harass a bit, and chokes are small so easy defendable, and other exeptions can be cause of mindgames, like finals of first razor tournament where Draco played really strange the first two games on maps where the standard were well known, but that was to put JF out oh the standard pvp where JF was stronger.
I hope i expained, i will try to find some reps.
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On November 17 2012 05:12 ajmbek wrote:
You must have missed me completly, even Fold is able to keep a probe alive and defend the ramp, i am > of Fold, so i am not speaking of low level pvp, i dont know what is your pvp level, but at mine it is really not hard to scaut vs a zelot first bo. Once again, map is important, on 2 players map, or on small maps like piton you will always scaut in time a 10/12.
Getting a- with this bo? challange accepted! do that and post here the replay pack and i will shut up.
you would agree alfio is a-? Go watch nation wars VOD, on a 2 player map I opened 10-12 gw. You don't have to win the game, it just ensures that the match will roll to mid game so you can worry less about 3-4gw goon or at rush builds. Also for builds its hard to prove that I can do 10-12 to a- solely for pvp since there are not the required active amount of players necessary to reach this goal. However, steveitscoming and oya both got a- with pure 9-9 gw so it's indeed possible.
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On November 11 2012 18:23 thezanursic wrote:
Soo if I scout my opponent doing this how do I react?
I generally do 2 gate defense myself and keep my scouting probe running between his main/natural. When I see he still hasn't taken a gas I keep my probe by his nat, and if I think he wants to take it throw down a pylon blocking it. Then scout his main to check for gas. This way you are safe against his aggression and ahead tech wise since as soon as you see him take gas you resume your gas mining (your geyser has finished, but you don't mine from it during all this.) Make sure to check (especially on maps like longinus or electric circuit) that he isn't doing some proxy gateways as well.
If he kills your pylon then proceed to take your natural as well and you are on even footing with a gas lead.
I have no doubts that you can get to A- with this BO. Just depends how good you are.
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On November 20 2012 05:17 dRaW wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 05:12 ajmbek wrote:
You must have missed me completly, even Fold is able to keep a probe alive and defend the ramp, i am > of Fold, so i am not speaking of low level pvp, i dont know what is your pvp level, but at mine it is really not hard to scaut vs a zelot first bo. Once again, map is important, on 2 players map, or on small maps like piton you will always scaut in time a 10/12.
Getting a- with this bo? challange accepted! do that and post here the replay pack and i will shut up. you would agree alfio is a-? Go watch nation wars VOD, on a 2 player map I opened 10-12 gw. You don't have to win the game, it just ensures that the match will roll to mid game so you can worry less about 3-4gw goon or at rush builds. Also for builds its hard to prove that I can do 10-12 to a- solely for pvp since there are not the required active amount of players necessary to reach this goal. However, steveitscoming and oya both got a- with pure 9-9 gw so it's indeed possible.
i know that there is not enoguht players, it was just a provocation, 10-12 is a good and solid opening, the problem is forcing yourself to make a nexus after 5 zealots. I know about the 9-9 at iccup laddering at higher ranks, dsaqwe shomed me reps of this tipe, but again, there is not a forced nexus. I simply belive that the timing window at this point is too big, and you allow your opponent to choose the game.
you are saying you are alifo???
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On November 17 2012 05:12 ajmbek wrote:
You must have missed me completly, even Fold is able to keep a probe alive and defend the ramp, i am > of Fold, so i am not speaking of low level pvp, i dont know what is your pvp level, but at mine it is really not hard to scaut vs a zelot first bo. Once again, map is important, on 2 players map, or on small maps like piton you will always scaut in time a 10/12.
Getting a- with this bo? challange accepted! do that and post here the replay pack and i will shut up.
DraW is A-/1250+ fish.
Pretty sure he would not struggle at all to get to A- with this build.
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guys, why are we taking ajmbek seriously? lol
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On November 22 2012 05:15 SlowBullets wrote:
guys, why are we taking ajmbek seriously? lol
Maybe just because of what am i saying, maybe.
Beeing A- is good but i belive that playing at some level requires good strategy too. I can also offrace and win a tvz makeing only marines and scvs but it can be done on d ranke, maybe can grab some win on d+ but if a bo does have a loop a higher player will find it and use it vs you.
So you draw really belive going 10/12 gates making 5 zealots and then a nexus is a good solid opening that can work no matter on witch map?
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Seems like a great build for Paradoxxx
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On November 22 2012 11:24 asiantraceur wrote:
Seems like a great build for Paradoxxx
lol
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EPT
