With this build you are looking to apply early pressure to zerg with your speedlots. If zerg doesn't have proper simcity, it might be enough to end the game with only speedlots. It works best against 3 hatch lair into 5/6 hatch spire since your speedlots arrive at a timing much faster than the usual +1 speedlot/corsair build. Against the current 3 hatch hydralisk builds, you are also in a comfortable position with speedlots able to stop hydralisks aggression. The 2 stargate followup also ensures that you aren't vulnerable to mutalisks tech switches and you can quickly make up for the initial lack of air power.
Build order:
8 pylon
*Scout with this probe and as always try to keep it alive for as long as possible.
11 forge
*2nd probe should be sent out if you don't scout on first try.
Nexus, cannon and gateway timings:
5 pool: Do not do this build! Quickly put up a cannon in your main and prepare to probe drill. Transition into one base play (2 gate, 1 gate expand, etc).
You should be making probes and zealots continously but prioritise getting your upgrades and tech over zealots.
100 gas +1 ground weapon
100 gas citadel
Add 2 more gates at about 28~32 supply depending on how close you are to 300 minerals (you can cut probes to get the 2 gates up but only during this time).
Zealot legspeed when citadel finishes.
Second gas when you can make zealots out of every gate and have left over mineral.
Stargate x2 with the left over minerals you have after pumping zealots out of every gate.
Move out when leg speed is 80% done you should have 6~8 zealots and hit at around 7:00.
Rally zealots to where you are attacking.
Pump corsairs when stargates are finished and attack with corsairs when you have 6~8.
When you have enough gas, get archives and follow up with standard PvZ play.
Reactions:
2/3 hatch mutalisk
If you see 2/3 hatch mutalisk, your aim is to delay the mutalisks attack with your zealots. Make cannons in base (two in main and one at natural in your mineral line should be enough, more if it's 2 hatch mutalisks) while you are harassing zerg with your zealots. Split up your zealots and try to get drone kills. If done right, this should buy you enough time for the cannons to go up and corsairs to start coming out of stargates. When your corsair count is around 8 you can do a push with zealots and corsairs.
2/3 hatch hydralisk
The timing you start to see the hydralisks off 2/3 hatch should be before the timing that you start adding stargates. If your speed is not close to finishing start adding cannons to delay the hydralisks for a bit and move out when you have speed. Slow zealots are still suprisingly good against hydralisks though so you can try to attack them when the hydralisk numbers are small.
Playing against 3 hatch hydralisk also means you have to do a slight deviation in the build, instead of adding stargates quickly, add a templar archives and get 2 more gates. You should be researching storm as soon as archives is done and start 3~4 high templars. Zealots should be enough to hold off any early hydralisk pressure but if groups get large, having storm is much more cost effective in dealing with hydralisks.
You can afford to be aggressive as soon as legs speed kick in so take this time to harass or kill the zerg and do scouting with the zealots. If you see lair tech and a double gas with no lair then you should quickly get observers out. If however you see lair tech and a spire, cannon up your main and natural mineral lines (two in main and one in natural should be enough) and get a stargate or two for corsairs. Alternatively you can get a dark archon for maelstrom if you scout mutas.
Lurker play
If it is fast lurker play, you want to harass with your speedlots and get robo quickly. You can either cancel the 2nd stargate to get gateways up and push out with a strong macro timing or let it go up and produce corsairs out of both stargates for a more harass orientated play.
Zerg spending resources on lurkers means less hydralisks will be out and so you can abuse this by killing overlords with your corsairs. Force zerg to waste larva on overlords instead of units. While doing this you should also be getting observers out and getting ready to break out of the contain which should be easy if you have killed off a lot of overlords.
Replays:
I do not have many replays with me currently so feel free to try this build out, post your replays here and I will add them.
very interesting, thanks for posting. I did a variation of this build back in the day that carried me quite far, but i forgot all the timings. Q: Is it still reasonable with this build/ in the current metagame to skip the stargate play and transition from the zeal push to either storm, robo oder expand depending on the situation? I never felt that comfortable with sair play. It is great to watch but im bad at executing it, so im looking for a different way to follow this up.
Forge + 2 cannons in natural can stop 5 pool even it's scouted on last try. If you start core before assimilator is ready and attack when speed is ~80%, you will get to zerg's base before +1 is done.
there's another variation of this actually, if you want more pressure follow-up and dont want too many sairs (this is if you notice they wont go mutalisk) you can add templar archive and s.gate before your push, then +1-2 gw and get archon. [[you still need cannons in the main or natural if you notice him going muta]] You don't need to wait for +1 air wep with this and can re-push @ 2archon timing. This will keep you able to apply lots of pressure if they aren't careful with their mutas or they went hydralisk after your first push, as long as you have 5gw you don't need storm just yet since you attacked earlier than normal and they needed to defend (most likely they will re-drone a bit giving you the army advantage)
The most recent progame example I've seen is Zero vs Stats on Icarus during a PL playoffx. Good guide
I know the build itself has a number weaknesses, but I'm not entirely sure. So this'll be good for discussion.
If Zerg goes for a standard 5-6 hatch Hydra wave strategy, would Protoss be able to get Storm in time to defend? This is assuming Zerg defends the timing well, of course.
I believe this type of strategy depends heavily on the map too. If Zerg can do a really nice simcity like on FS or Aztec, this strategy's power is greatly diminshed. Whereas maps on Ground Zero or Fortress, where simcitying is much more difficult, the strategy is more effective.
The "2/3 hatch Muta" section is nice, but I think it's very rare to see 2/3 hatch muta in PvZ, and that you're more likely to see Mutas after 3 or 4 base. It's important to note that with this strategy, your HT count will be lower than usual. Therefore, if Zerg elects to do a Muta/Hydra build, ala 09-10 style, Protoss needs to be especially careful about covering his HT with Corsairs. Cola vs Eagle, while not the same builds, is such an example of Protoss needing to cover his HT against Hydra/Muta play.
That's all I can think of atm to bring to the table. Good guide! Always great to see such detailed guides in the Strategy forum
On October 13 2012 07:37 ArvickHero wrote: The most recent progame example I've seen is Zero vs Stats on Icarus during a PL playoffx. Good guide
I know the build itself has a number weaknesses, but I'm not entirely sure. So this'll be good for discussion.
If Zerg goes for a standard 5-6 hatch Hydra wave strategy, would Protoss be able to get Storm in time to defend? This is assuming Zerg defends the timing well, of course.
I believe this type of strategy depends heavily on the map too. If Zerg can do a really nice simcity like on FS or Aztec, this strategy's power is greatly diminshed. Whereas maps on Ground Zero or Fortress, where simcitying is much more difficult, the strategy is more effective.
The "2/3 hatch Muta" section is nice, but I think it's very rare to see 2/3 hatch muta in PvZ, and that you're more likely to see Mutas after 3 or 4 base. It's important to note that with this strategy, your HT count will be lower than usual. Therefore, if Zerg elects to do a Muta/Hydra build, ala 09-10 style, Protoss needs to be especially careful about covering his HT with Corsairs. Cola vs Eagle, while not the same builds, is such an example of Protoss needing to cover his HT against Hydra/Muta play.
That's all I can think of atm to bring to the table. Good guide! Always great to see such detailed guides in the Strategy forum
Most recent example is Mini vs Soo on Ground Zero. However, Mini is super sloppy and bad micro with sairs and loses them to muta/scourge.
But this isn't really a new build is it? I saw it many times on iccup 2 years ago and copied/adapted my own version of it. It was a REALLY powerful build at the C ranks where although most people had their macro down, their multitasking wasn't stellar by any means and would crumble and bank thousands of minerals after the initial zealot pressure. The games usually ended after critical mass cosairs raped too many overlords afterward while I macro'ed up an unstoppable mid-game composition back at home.
On October 13 2012 00:13 Cele wrote: very interesting, thanks for posting. I did a variation of this build back in the day that carried me quite far, but i forgot all the timings. Q: Is it still reasonable with this build/ in the current metagame to skip the stargate play and transition from the zeal push to either storm, robo oder expand depending on the situation? I never felt that comfortable with sair play. It is great to watch but im bad at executing it, so im looking for a different way to follow this up.
Skipping sairs means you have to get dark archons with mass goons and pray your storms are good or just hope the zerg doesn't make any mutas. With sairs you don't really have to harass with them. Just having them over your army is enough to deter muta from sniping your templar. It's okay to skip sairs for a bit if they're going 2/3 hatch hydra but eventually you'll still want to get them to prevent drops.
On October 13 2012 06:45 )Messer( wrote: Forge + 2 cannons in natural can stop 5 pool even it's scouted on last try. If you start core before assimilator is ready and attack when speed is ~80%, you will get to zerg's base before +1 is done.
Can you show me a replay of this? This never works for me and especially not when scouting zerg last, cannons are not even halfway done if you do it this way unless you get forge at 10 supply and blindly make cannons before reaching zerg's base then maybe with a bit of probe drilling you can hold it off.
On October 13 2012 09:43 EngrishTeacher wrote: Thanks for the detailed guide.
But this isn't really a new build is it? I saw it many times on iccup 2 years ago and copied/adapted my own version of it. It was a REALLY powerful build at the C ranks where although most people had their macro down, their multitasking wasn't stellar by any means and would crumble and bank thousands of minerals after the initial zealot pressure. The games usually ended after critical mass cosairs raped too many overlords afterward while I macro'ed up an unstoppable mid-game composition back at home.
It's not a new build but since it wasn't documented anywhere I thought I would write it.
btw with any given FE build if you lose initial probe and don't manage to scout them somehow before your 3 gates are half-ish done (or even sooner, I forget) then you're probably fucked vs modern 3hat hydra, because unless you're Bisu and they're a D-level Z player the probe pull's not gonna be nearly fast enough to deal with 6 lings + 6 hydras vs 2 zeals + 1 goon + 1 cannon.
Not sure but I believe if you see a 3+hatch hydra(send another probe or usually your corsair gets there some time before they move out I think, not too sure tho cuz I play Zerg not Protoss) then you throw down like 5 more cannons...not even funny Im pretty sure you actually do this I think I remember seeing this Crazy Hydra vs Wookie on Sniper Ridge...Wookie still lost cuz his cannons were too late but I remember the caster (I think saylebw was casting it) did mention having like 6 cannons against a hydra bust...and as Zerg I most likely would not run my army into 6 cannons at that point...
On October 13 2012 06:45 )Messer( wrote: Forge + 2 cannons in natural can stop 5 pool even it's scouted on last try. If you start core before assimilator is ready and attack when speed is ~80%, you will get to zerg's base before +1 is done.
Can you show me a replay of this? This never works for me and especially not when scouting zerg last, cannons are not even halfway done if you do it this way unless you get forge at 10 supply and blindly make cannons before reaching zerg's base then maybe with a bit of probe drilling you can hold it off.
Yes, I make forge at 10-11/17 and blindly 2 cannons at 12-13/17, then try to cover cannons with probe drill. That's my standard build. I lose 1 of 2 cannons or few probes but it seems better than staying in main with no possiblity of scouting and dying of fast hydra. I haven'f found replay with scout on last try but in my case it doesn't affect my build order.
blind 2 cannon is bad, puts you way behind vs everything else except 9pool 6ling.
Making 2 cannons ASAP and completing your simcity, then blocking with probes is fairly standard to blocking 5pools. Always scout on 9, and always double scout on 4p maps. For good measure, send a probe to the natural as your scout probe/s approach the Zerg's base.
This is always not possible ofc, learn to judge timings so you know instantly whether or not its more prudent to go 1base rather than trying to save the nat.
Another game is Perfectman vs Hyun on Dantes Peak. Its blocked atm on youtube but I think it is exactly like the guides build order: 3 gates, then double star. Its a really interesting build order, thanks for the guide (I was going to do this one myself eventually but dont need to now so thanks). That mini vs soo game is awesome.
On October 15 2012 11:49 ArvickHero wrote: blind 2 cannon is bad, puts you way behind vs everything else except 9pool 6ling.
Making 2 cannons ASAP and completing your simcity, then blocking with probes is fairly standard to blocking 5pools. Always scout on 9, and always double scout on 4p maps. For good measure, send a probe to the natural as your scout probe/s approach the Zerg's base.
This is always not possible ofc, learn to judge timings so you know instantly whether or not its more prudent to go 1base rather than trying to save the nat.
It's still not too late to cancel them if they're unnecessary. But I lose 75 minerals on cancelling them. In pvz I always scout just after pylon but I should start to double scout.
One of the builds I used a lot a few seasons ago was very similar to this; it was the one NonY showcased in his TSL2 replay pack, where it's nearly identical except it works off of 2 gateways instead of 3, and gets the double stargates earlier.
Does the additional production from a 3rd gateway make the rush that much stronger? I've lost quite a few games due to mutalisks coming in and screwing up my base, and I feel that transitioning earlier into Corsairs works better, especially since almost every single Zerg (even in D+) knows how to simcity halfway decently nowadays.
Before I read this, and sorry to break rules here, please PM me as per how this is better than a 4 gate +1 archon timing. Also, if you can, refrain from using the term 3 hatch hydra (or moreso, 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch).
EPT
