Turn vs Bogus Sniper Ridge 7/2/2012 Turn @11, Bogus @2
This Build Order article focuses on Turns build order, but ofcourse references Bogus' build too but in less detail. In a nutshell: 7 vultures then 6 goliaths. Then mines and speed together. Later Turn follows up with a 3 base 4 dropship assault.
I like this game because it showcases the finest TvT with very high unit exchange.
3 rine 1 vult 2 vult 2 vult 2 vult 2 gol 2 gol 2 gol 1+2 shop (speed and mines, then siege) 2 gol 2 vult 4 vult 2 tank 2 vult 2 tank 2 vult 2 tank 2 vult 2 tank 2 vult 2 tank 2 gol 2 tank 2 vult 1 dropship 2 tank 2 vult 1 dropship 2 tank 2 vult 1 dropship 3 tank 2 vult 1 dropship 3 tank 4 gol 7 gol 3 tank 4 vult 3 tank 4 gol 3 tank 4 gol
7 vult 4 gol 3+4 fac 2 gas 5+6 gol 1+2 shop (3rd and 4th fac still building) academy 2 gol 2 vult/scanners Speed and mines 4 vult 2 tank 2 vult siege +1 ground weapons? then +2 ground weapons after 3 cc 2 tank 2 vult 2 tank 2 vult 2 tank 2 vult star 2 tank 2 gol remake rax 2 tank 2 vult 1 dropship 5 fac 2 tank 2 vult 1 dropship 3 shop/science 2 tank 2 vult 1 dropship 4 cc inbase 6+7 fac/ebay 3 tank 2 vult 1 dropship 3 tank 4 gol 7 gol 3 tank 4 vult 3 tank 4 gol 3 tank 4 gol
5 vult tank vult tank vult 2 vult 2 tank gol vult 2 tank few rounds of tank gol few rounds of vults Starts cloaked wraiths tanks vults drop ship continues
Turn uses this build versus Bogus who also opens with a factory double cc. Also, the starting positions favour Turn. The start position also favours Turn to be aggressive if he wants (which he normally does).
This article doesnt currently go into detail of when the fights occur at all (who is ahead after each) or what the players are thinking and trying to achieve. I wanted to use this game as a test to see if you guys like the shorthand and layout. Ideally the two build orders would be side by side with Time on the y axis in the margin. Also, separate columns for depots, scvs, gas buildings, support buildings, units. And finally spaces for interactions (scouting, harass, fights, movement).
Anyone know of other games using a similar build? Do you guys want TvT guides?
While I appreciate the effort put in, the problem is that so much in tvt is situation specific.
By that, I mean there are so many different derivations depending on if other terran does x, y, or z.
In fact, it's this very reason why Idra criticized the one tvt "guide" stylish made. He basically just listed a build order like you did but gave no mind to the more important details.
Despite what you said later, this is still an important disclaimer for any who come in here looking for tvt builds/help.
This looks a lot more like notes to help you study TvT rather than an actual guide. As Harem said you can't do a straight opening into a build order in TvT (or actually in TvP either unless your opponent is really predictable). Depending on what opening you and your opponent did, you each have a limited few viable followups. Perhaps I will post all the study material I used to learn each matchup if I can figure out how to make it into a torrent file.
Isolating Build Orders and putting them side by side is oversimplifying a match, and should not be used on its own. However, it is a very valuable learning tool. Everyone can learn alot by taking a pro game and putting the Build Orders side by side.
TvT is not different from the other matchups. In every matchup, you choose an opener. And in every matchup you then keep branching off into the next phase of your build order depending on interactions and non interactions. This article puts the specific Build Orders that are witnessed in the vod into a list format, nothing more.
However, I love discussing strategy aswell. Zariel asks why 6 gols when no air threat, 'reliable DPS and anti-vulture units that come at a relatively low cost?'. Yes I would definately agree with that. I think also, this 6 gol attack is good because: 1. You kill the scouting barracks. 2. Its a versatile microable army. Good vs mines, good vs speed. Good vs siege. Good vs scv. Easy to retreat or attack compared to siege mode tanks. Micro potential. During the small army stage, pro gamers can fully micro every unit essentially. A tank in siege mode at this stage of the game is slow and not very microable. It is a defensive and passive upgrade. Having 6 units all with moderate dps, moderate cost and high mobility is one way of playing. Bogus had 4 vults and 2 tanks. Once the tanks were sniped, the vults were nearly useless. Or Turn could have focused all the low hitpoint vults down first and then the tanks. You have initiative. 3. It hits hard before siege mode finished. Attacking before an expensive and slow upgrade pays off is great. 4. Spawn postions favour Turn and reward Turn for being aggressive and keeping Bogus' unit count low. This is a big point. It also suggests that Bogus's build was infact also perfectly viable. The 6 gols or the tank vult combo at this stage are both acceptable options. If they had spawned cross positions we would have seen a fair match. That said however, I do think Turn was slightly more in control for the entire game, regardless of his advantage, and deserved the win. 5. Somewhat open natural and somewhat containable natural. So this aggression could lead to a solid contain later on (which it sort of did tbf).
On April 24 2012 13:38 Zariel wrote: My question would be 'Why did Turn go for 6 goliaths when there was no threat of air-play and used it for his attack?'
Is it moreso that they are reliable DPS and anti-vulture units that come a relatively low cost?
After watching that VOD, it sort of seems like what Flash's mindset was pretty simple, use the 6 gols to kill the 3 tanks, which was a really good trade gas wise (150 gas from 3 gols killed vs 300 gas from 3 tanks killed) which immediately allowed him to build 3rd CC at the place he wanted whilst Bogus was forced to build inbase. BO wise, skipping the machine shops allows him to get the fast unit advantage upgrades.
However, the build does carry somewhat a higher risk than going tank/vult because if you lose that fight, you WILL be contained, (ie: he sieges up before you kill the tanks plus your lower tank count). It's a build where you have to understand your opponent/matchup really well to pull off so flawlessly from the view of the spectator.
On April 24 2012 13:38 Zariel wrote: My question would be 'Why did Turn go for 6 goliaths when there was no threat of air-play and used it for his attack?'
Is it moreso that they are reliable DPS and anti-vulture units that come a relatively low cost?
I would imagine there's also something to be said for being able to continuously produce units without adding a machine shop--it reminds me of Fantasy v Skyhigh @ Fortress from the playoffs one year where Skyhigh holds off Fantasy's 2fact by spamming gols (if he had built a machine shop he would have one less gol and might have died)
Its to be used against vult play. Flash saw bogus constantly pumping vults and adding facts so flash pumped vults too only he started getting an armory so he could have a concrete counter instead of matching vults. If they go standard 3marine vult cc into tanks you won't be able to stop an early push and yeah get contained. It works against 2 fact vult too as the delay from adding the machine shop allows you to keep up with your fact cc fact build.
EPT
