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ive never taken devouruer xin seriously i always thought it felt weaker than both good alternatives (cinderhulk and warrior)
warrior+ghostblade allows you to true damage one shot most squishies at the cost of a 2 dmg item jungler, cinderhulk increases synergy stacking your best stat
devourer is only good if you get to auto a lot which is rarely the case on xin since he's not really tanky enough to get away with it if he builds a devourer. the on hit effect works on a fairly weak heal at that. seems like the devourer is only really good on yi irelia and malphite (im going malphite with devourer atm and it's super strong and an extra 100 dmg every second hit is only gonna be better)
unless xin q hits twice with devourer but even then it takes a while to stack up and stuff mightn't be worth it
small patch, hopefully ez terror is over but runeglaive ez probably still strong ish and it's annoying in general so that is enough.
other than that naut nerfs confusing, really good hero but OP? idk
I don't like the way Kalista was nerfed but she was OP so I'll accept it
I like the ap item changes, but they don't change much of what is good on who, I think luden's buys will go down but, it was always overbought in my opinion so this is a wash to me personally.
really pretty much a yawn outside of the new hero, who looks fun
Man I remember telling everybody that the main thing riot was going to do to GP was completely change his E because his entire kit screamed split push and raise morale had no synergy with that, and people argued with me about it.
Kalista changes are strange. She now only does 90% damage on a normal attack. Not sure how this interacts with crit, but it seems like it should be neutral. On the other hand it means she does better with on-hit, and attack speed, in order to get lots of rend stacks. But she already did that, and a standard crit build will already be better lategame so...
Kayle gets a big big sustain buff which seems strange. She already has a heal on her W, now her E is a big self heal as well (10-30+.15 AP per attack)
Big Nautilus E nerfs; Entirely justified.
Singed gets melee scaling MR back which means he will probably have a big comeback
AP Xin gets a nerf ahead of sated devourer making him the most OP champion on gods green earth.
Devourer is interesting. It can work on a lot of champions, or even as a double jungle since you don't need to actually kill the monster to get stacks.
Runeglaive gets raw power buffs to compensate for the lack of echo. Not sure what will happen with this, seems kind of strong really. Especially for AP champions with high base attack damage.
AP itemization goes in to fuck over AP champions by forcing them to have three items before they can upgrade which generally increases the upgrade costs of the non-big core items in order to make the "non-big core items" more enticing to players.
RoA gets changed in really strange ways (why do we need two +1000ish Mana/AP items?) and also gets a total power buff(to 100 AP total) but loses 150 HP[which seemed to me to be one of the primary reasons it was purchased]. But even with those offensive buffs its confusing why you would buy this as opposed to attempt to stack a tear now that its lost a lot of its defensive power unless you were going for both [RoA will give 124 AP if you already have an AA staff, Seraphs will give 110+base mana]. Additionally now that Liandry's has 80 AP it fulfuls a similar place as RoA in the "HP/AP" power area.
guys so you know that super balanced cassio champ that had tons of free spell vamp on E wota now will do 15% of total before resist damage on top of the other spell vamp when she spams E on tanks good luck killing her
also soraka +Vlad with wota/spirit visage thats a thing now in fact just run soraka vlad cassio both with wota spirit visage and just kill everything funny but probably too low on damage against most comps though
On July 08 2015 06:11 Ketara wrote: Man I remember telling everybody that the main thing riot was going to do to GP was completely change his E because his entire kit screamed split push and raise morale had no synergy with that, and people argued with me about it.
Do you guys remember that.
On one hand Raise morale was awesome for drunken support picks, but on the other hand how these kegs work could be hilariously amusing for pretty much everything else.
I like this new pirate. He seems neat, wonder how he'd do in the current jungle.
On July 08 2015 06:19 Slayer91 wrote: guys so you know that super balanced cassio champ that had tons of free spell vamp on E wota now will do 15% of total before resist damage on top of the other spell vamp when she spams E on tanks good luck killing her
also soraka +Vlad with wota/spirit visage thats a thing now in fact just run soraka vlad cassio both with wota spirit visage and just kill everything funny but probably too low on damage against most comps though
you are forgetting the visage + homeguard synergy!
The AP cost changes are meant to make it easier for thevAP champs to get them easier/sooner, as their damage comes from abilities and not AAing people like it is for AD champs.
I know that they are going to tweak costs on AD items too, but focusing on the AP champs is a good start to see what prices they want for the AD items.
Slow change is cool, Kalista nerf is weird but.... OK I think, Naut nerf is to stop him from being a huge lane bully as support, and I think everything else is minor tweaks.
Oh, and stopping the terror of Ludens + Runeglaive Ez is good. Probably still firstcpick/ban worthy, but only for his harass now and not the two item timing he originally had.
On July 08 2015 05:59 Slayer91 wrote: that slow stacking rule is super nice
ive never taken devouruer xin seriously i always thought it felt weaker than both good alternatives (cinderhulk and warrior)
warrior+ghostblade allows you to true damage one shot most squishies at the cost of a 2 dmg item jungler, cinderhulk increases synergy stacking your best stat
devourer is only good if you get to auto a lot which is rarely the case on xin since he's not really tanky enough to get away with it if he builds a devourer. the on hit effect works on a fairly weak heal at that. seems like the devourer is only really good on yi irelia and malphite (im going malphite with devourer atm and it's super strong and an extra 100 dmg every second hit is only gonna be better)
unless xin q hits twice with devourer but even then it takes a while to stack up and stuff mightn't be worth it
The real issue is that the heal on his W is so high he basically cannot die if he isn't stunned. Instead of healing every third attack he heals every second attack. This would have made his per-attack heal 25+.35 AP which is simply an insane amount of healing.
It is true that his Q his twice with devourer, so you only need 2 attacks to trigger it instead of three. Which is an added bonus
On July 08 2015 06:11 Ketara wrote: Man I remember telling everybody that the main thing riot was going to do to GP was completely change his E because his entire kit screamed split push and raise morale had no synergy with that, and people argued with me about it.
Do you guys remember that.
Riot literally said they were most likely going to change E, and then you said "Riot is going to change E." Don't pretend you offered some groundbreaking prophetic insight.
So I wasn't dreaming, there was a bug letting J4's flag end up inside terrain (thus disabling your ability to drag yourself)!
Edit: also Ketara reading this post I remember you doing that (claiming credit for something either widely known or agreed upon by most people here) before. So, yeah! You did it! You told us! We remember! Just not what you're thinking about.
Another effect about WotA is that you'll heal slightly less on minions (since Riot changed them by removing MR for more HP, the previous WotA was basically "true healing"). I... guess it's kind of a nerf to Vlad in lane? On the other hand he's obnoxious once he has revolver, not WotA. Probably more interesting to build toward Zhonya's second (esp. with the reduced NLR cost) than finishing WotA in almost every case now too.
On July 08 2015 06:19 Goumindong wrote: Kayle gets a big big sustain buff which seems strange. She already has a heal on her W, now her E is a big self heal as well (10-30+.15 AP per attack).
I mean, if anybody predicted Gangplank would throw out chain-reaction explosive kegs, they're fucking wizards.
But they didn't.
Speaking of, I wonder what exactly damages them besides AAs, if anything. Could do some pretty stupid bullshit if ult does, but I have a feeling Riot wouldn't let that happen.
Anyway, AP item changes and Devourer are cool. Liandry's will no longer feel like the shittiest buy in the game and no more garbage 15% slow from Rylai's.
On July 08 2015 06:13 krndandaman wrote: well damn... rylais and liandries look super strong.
My first impression was that Rylais is going to become way more common but honestly I think it takes a significant power hit with the new slow stacking rules. In addition this patch shifts even more power toward deathcap so if we see more diversity on mages I expect it to come later on in the builds rather than early when the slow would be more useful.
If I had to make one prediction it would be that we are gonna see A LOT of singed this patch. He is getting a HUGE MR buff and his itemization is ROA/Rylais/Liandries already. Also the whole thing where he laughs every time he flings is an obvious "play this" sign from Riot.
Slow stacking removal is an interesting change. One of those things that was never expressed and you were supposed to find out, but a lot of players probably had no clue. I wonder if Riot is going to put out more higher powered slows since they have to king of the hill now.
Kalista: Why is Rend on monsters still not capped!
Kayle: Time to truck people from the jungle. Runeglaive? Devourer? Diversity™, yay!
Naut: Freelo sub, still diving!
Rek'Sai: Really, Riot?
Singed: BM, report plaz.
Devourer: Time to dust of Xin.
Runeglaive: Now even better than Lichbane.
Glory: Caaaaaalled it.
AP Itemization: Prepare for Kass, Rumble, and Vlad to be even stupider now. Bonus points for helping AP junglers. AD itemization still blows.
I'm not one to spew my thoughts about Riot's balancing usually, but...
Holy shit fucking rest in peace reksai. I realise she was probably the strongest jungler atm and will probably still be more than viable, but right after giving a major buff to scaling late-game junglers you nerf the strongest early game jungler? Feels like a big shift of balance, but I'm probably biased because Rek'Sai has been my favorite champion for some time.
New AP itemisation is weird, seems like void staff first could be good, and I like Luden's again.
I don't like removing slow stacking, I thought it's really nice that I can have a significant slow just by getting a chilling smite + randuins on any champion which allows me to catch up to them and start applying either redbuff or pointblank cc or just pointblank damage, in general it will be harder to fight against champions with multiple/short cooldown blinks like say Fizz.
I like that they didn't overnerf Ez and let us just see how he is without Luden's proc on Q, but I'm not the biggest fan of leaving Ryze in his current form.
Damn, I liked running at people, but between Sivir nerf and RG nerf it's getting worse
Enchantment : Warrior [Potentially more changes] No longer has 10 armor penetration New Unique Passive - Warrior's Wraith: 10% of physical damage dealt will be apply again as true damage over next 3 seconds
If Riot wants to give early game junglers a chance to succeed in the meta once again, they need to give back 5-10 AD on Warrior enchant, that's how close they are to being viable again.
And Rek'Sai will still be strong because of global pressure with her ult, fast jungle clear, and how she can go either tanky or bruiser/assassin-like and still be viable late game. The nerf to her knock up radius hurts, but the fact that she could knock people up outside of her melee attack range is kinda OP.
Enchantment : Warrior [Potentially more changes] No longer has 10 armor penetration New Unique Passive - Warrior's Wraith: 10% of physical damage dealt will be apply again as true damage over next 3 seconds
So who called the Warrior rework
Probably not enough tbh, the warrior junglers want flat AD, not a weak-ass DoT based off how much physical damage they do.
I can't count how many times I cought someone with edge of E. Also this severely reduces Rek'Sai's usefuleness in teamfights. I consider this a really big nerf.
Enchantment : Warrior [Potentially more changes] No longer has 10 armor penetration New Unique Passive - Warrior's Wraith: 10% of physical damage dealt will be apply again as true damage over next 3 seconds
So who called the Warrior rework
wtffff nooooooooo. I was seriously contemplating picking something stupid like Fiora with guaranteed damage and buy warrior/ghostblade/bruta and explode squishes. The dream is dead now
With this change, Rek'sai's W popup range is lower than her auto range, which unburrows her. So now if you're using an auto to unborrow on somebody you'll wiff it unless they walk into you.
On July 08 2015 07:24 Gahlo wrote: Fun story from reddit.
With this change, Rek'sai's W popup range is lower than her auto range, which unburrows her. So now if you're using an auto to unborrow on somebody you'll wiff it unless they walk into you.
That just seems wrong... At worst it should be that her knock up range is the same length as her auto range.
On July 08 2015 07:25 Sufficiency wrote: I am just here pondering how OP Rylai's will be for Amumu.
Runeglaive > Ryleis into tanky Amumu? Slow people with your tears, give them the headbutt of justice up their ass? Might actually be pretty good.
"Fixed a rare bug where Elise's W - Volatile Spiderling would appear to get stuck on cast, but invisibly chase and explode on targets as usual " I remember that bug from season 3 maining elise, top/jungle/mid/support ehh
I wonder how many bugged champion-tower interactions are out there. Recently we've had Sejuani, Bard and now Skarner could appearently stun them. The only wonky I know of off the top of my head is how Kassadin's W active does no bonus damage but disables the passive magic damage (which works against towers!) while on cooldown.
Gawd damnit. Braum no longer laughs all over Syndra.
On July 08 2015 07:24 Gahlo wrote: Fun story from reddit.
With this change, Rek'sai's W popup range is lower than her auto range, which unburrows her. So now if you're using an auto to unborrow on somebody you'll wiff it unless they walk into you.
That just seems wrong... At worst it should be that her knock up range is the same length as her auto range.
Or, you know, you have to actually try to knock people up now, instead of rofl-tunneling in their general direction and getting a 3-man knock-up every other fight (or the general obnoxiousness of her burrowed's MS buff + tunnel when she ganks).
Amumu's W slowed for 15% with Rylai's, it'll slow for 20% now (because it's periodic damage, even though the AoE category slows for 40%), the difference is not that big.
Luden's is straight up better than buying/upgrading boots now, even for Anivia.
As for the new game mode's items, it looks like they're making TP an enchant in it (or at least trying it alongside the summoner spell). On one hand it's dangerous for backdoors (because recall is pretty long and structure very fragile—DotA has BoTs (and upgraded BoTs to TP on allied heroes) but the map is huge, TP scroll can be bought and works in 4s, and their buildings take ages to kill even without backdoor protection), on the other hand it could be Riot trying out an alternative to increase summoner spell diversity in the offlane while still allowing everyone to make plays (Alistar rushing that enchant on mobis to join his jungler on invades with trinket wards), and removing the "low counterplay" of homeguard TPs (the cooldown and necessity to somehow flank makes it interesting to me, both as a player and spectator, and outside of Hecarim I don't see it as an issue). Dunno. As much I want to entertain the idea of them fooling around with item actives and wonky shit before pre-s6, there are some things that are indicative of stuff I disagree with on the basic design level, once again.
Enchantment : Warrior [Potentially more changes] No longer has 10 armor penetration New Unique Passive - Warrior's Wraith: 10% of physical damage dealt will be apply again as true damage over next 3 seconds
So who called the Warrior rework
I don't really like more than 2 damage items on a jungler, which this seems like a nerf at 1 and 2 items, maybe a buff to Kha only? I feel like anyone who wants more damage than war + 1 is going to prefer new devour
Enchantment : Warrior [Potentially more changes] No longer has 10 armor penetration New Unique Passive - Warrior's Wraith: 10% of physical damage dealt will be apply again as true damage over next 3 seconds
So who called the Warrior rework
I don't really like more than 2 damage items on a jungler, which this seems like a nerf at 1 and 2 items, maybe a buff to Kha only? I feel like anyone who wants more damage than war + 1 is going to prefer new devour
Well it depends on how it stacks. if it refreshes it will be kind of weak. But if not it will be really strong, especially with physical ability damage
edit: wait, nm it sucks. 10% of damage dealt, so its just a 10% damage buff applied as a DoT so that you only get some of it when reapplying.
I did try Kayle jungle earlier today (one single time, no optimization of runes/masteries) and it didn't feel possible since I just barely died to wolves and the speed was pretty bad. E changes (or kiting the camps) would have made me not die to wolves, so it might be doable but I'm skeptic of a full clear. I did like it a lot at the start of the season when ranged junglers were more abusable.
My God, I hope that Scatter the Weak is finally fixed. Please, make this be true. By far the most frustrating ability in the game.
Competitive jungling is super stale, so hopefully we might get some variety. Still looks like Gragas auto pick though Rek'Sai has the Elise problem though, just does everything you want the jungler to do.
I hate this balance philosophy Riot has that you have to make strong but underused things overpowered to make them visible. I don't care about the Righteous Glory nerf but that it was overbuffed because "we wanted to get this item in more games so players could witness its strategic effectiveness" is so obnoxious. Make it as strong as it needs to be, let the crap players ignore it and let the good players abuse it.
I've tried playing Nidalee jungle yesterday and it is pretty awesome, I have to admit but one question : is her first clear really crap? I feel like going Frog -> Blue -> Wolves -> Red makes me almost dead. What you should start first, Q right? Q -> W -> E ?
On July 08 2015 13:57 739 wrote: I've tried playing Nidalee jungle yesterday and it is pretty awesome, I have to admit but one question : is her first clear really crap? I feel like going Frog -> Blue -> Wolves -> Red makes me almost dead. What you should start first, Q right? Q -> W -> E ?
Start Q and get E second. The Heal+AS from human form is better than traps and Swipe does more damage than Pounce anyway. If you get blue as your first buff and with a decent leash you should have one potion and fairly high health by the time you kill red buff since you can just spam heal on every cooldown. Just skip wolves and abuse her early power.
For her early clear to be good it's all about (ab)using her mechanics.
I'm loving this gangplank update. Graphically he's not an anime character anymore and the new voiceover isn't inferior to the old one, it just looks great.
On July 08 2015 06:11 Ketara wrote: Man I remember telling everybody that the main thing riot was going to do to GP was completely change his E because his entire kit screamed split push and raise morale had no synergy with that, and people argued with me about it.
Do you guys remember that.
Honestly I'm happy with that, E just wasn't the same thematically since they removed the deny (even though they did that for good reasons). Powder keg is much more interesting.
On July 09 2015 00:12 739 wrote: Elise Cocoon (E) stun now 1.5 seconds at all ranks from 1/1.25/1.5/1.75/2 Cocoon (E) cooldown now 14/12.5/11/9.5/8 from 14/13/12/11/10
That's a pretty slight buff and I like it.
the good old reverse a nerf we did a while ago a riot special
On July 09 2015 00:12 739 wrote: Elise Cocoon (E) stun now 1.5 seconds at all ranks from 1/1.25/1.5/1.75/2 Cocoon (E) cooldown now 14/12.5/11/9.5/8 from 14/13/12/11/10
That's a pretty slight buff and I like it.
the good old reverse a nerf we did a while ago a riot special
But when people want nerfs reverted later they say Riot never does.
On July 08 2015 05:59 Slayer91 wrote: that slow stacking rule is super nice
ive never taken devouruer xin seriously i always thought it felt weaker than both good alternatives (cinderhulk and warrior)
warrior+ghostblade allows you to true damage one shot most squishies at the cost of a 2 dmg item jungler, cinderhulk increases synergy stacking your best stat
devourer is only good if you get to auto a lot which is rarely the case on xin since he's not really tanky enough to get away with it if he builds a devourer. the on hit effect works on a fairly weak heal at that. seems like the devourer is only really good on yi irelia and malphite (im going malphite with devourer atm and it's super strong and an extra 100 dmg every second hit is only gonna be better)
unless xin q hits twice with devourer but even then it takes a while to stack up and stuff mightn't be worth it
The real issue is that the heal on his W is so high he basically cannot die if he isn't stunned. Instead of healing every third attack he heals every second attack. This would have made his per-attack heal 25+.35 AP which is simply an insane amount of healing.
It is true that his Q his twice with devourer, so you only need 2 attacks to trigger it instead of three. Which is an added bonus
is it really that insane? if you go devouruer+ap xin and do no damage and can be one combo'd by anyone? im not salty or anything not like i went devouruer anyway but i just think its bemusing that riot lets items like runeglaive and ludens echo go out unchchecked but as soon at they change devourer they think WAIT WHAT ABOUT AP XIN??
I am wondering how the slow changes affect nasus. wither ramps up over time so it doesn't actually initially apply as that great of a slow. So if a stronger slow is on them will wither's atk speed debuff just be ignored if the slow isn't as good?
most likely it'll keep track of all slows and their potency and always apply the biggest one I don't think ritos code is that bad so i don't think it will effect attack speed slows at all
On July 08 2015 05:59 Slayer91 wrote: that slow stacking rule is super nice
Now they just need to get rid of the diminishing returns formula on high/low MS.
EDIT: And make slows/MS boosts stack additively with each other rather than MS boosts stacking additively while slows multiply the final summed result (meaning that a champ getting a 15% MS boost and a 15% slow together ends up slower than base MS).
rylai's liandry's combo is way overbuffed yea. vlad will be the biggest abuser but other stuff like like sejuani/amumu might be pretty lulzy. Rumble might use this build too probably
On July 09 2015 02:38 VayneAuthority wrote: rylai's liandry's combo is way overbuffed yea. vlad will be the biggest abuser but other stuff like like sejuani/amumu might be pretty lulzy. Rumble might use this build too probably
I'm definitely going to ban Vlad every game with the new wota and general ap item changes. He was already really annoying, but now he got even worse.
On July 09 2015 00:12 739 wrote: Elise Cocoon (E) stun now 1.5 seconds at all ranks from 1/1.25/1.5/1.75/2 Cocoon (E) cooldown now 14/12.5/11/9.5/8 from 14/13/12/11/10
That's a pretty slight buff and I like it.
the good old reverse a nerf we did a while ago a riot special
But when people want nerfs reverted later they say Riot never does.
they always do them too late that is why people complain both ways
On July 09 2015 00:12 739 wrote: Elise Cocoon (E) stun now 1.5 seconds at all ranks from 1/1.25/1.5/1.75/2 Cocoon (E) cooldown now 14/12.5/11/9.5/8 from 14/13/12/11/10
That's a pretty slight buff and I like it.
the good old reverse a nerf we did a while ago a riot special
But when people want nerfs reverted later they say Riot never does.
they always do them too late that is why people complain both ways
those changes make ban phase such a chore
Sometimes it's so late that the champ isn't even in the meta or even remotely picked/banned.
Ban phase in general is so weird lately, like other than Runeglaive Ezreal nothing really jumps out at me as must pick/ban. I mean, there's always banning the solo Q snowball champs depending upon your ELO, but to me nothing is really must pick/ban compared to when Sejuani was first pick/ban, or any of the warrior junglers, or when assassins ruled the mid lane.
I guess if I had to make a ban list of things I don't want to deal with in solo queue right now, it'd be (in order of importance):
But with the AP itemization changes going live, there might be some AP mages in mid that jump up in popularity and get on that list (Kayle, Diana, Xerath, and Ziggs are the ones that jump out at me).
On July 08 2015 21:35 Gahlo wrote: Can anybody with PBE access tell me if Warrior still builds out of Brutalizer or not?
Pickaxe + Long sword + T2 Machete
Welp rip reksai (unless you're a cinderhulk pleb I guess).
Might as well go Devourer now.
I really liked the jungle since the cinderhulk nerf, but right now League is going in a really weird direction - I feel like now's the time to experiment with the meta (now more than ever I feel like doing things such as double bruiser botlane, or perhaps two duolanes with roaming/jungling smite supports).
On July 09 2015 05:09 AlterKot wrote: I really liked the jungle since the cinderhulk nerf, but right now League is going in a really weird direction - I feel like now's the time to experiment with the meta (now more than ever I feel like doing things such as double bruiser botlane, or perhaps two duolanes with roaming/jungling smite supports).
Vlad/Ryze/Ez are my 100% bans.
So what you're saying is you want to play Dota 2?
In all seriousness, I did have a game on 5.12 where my team went 2-1-2 in lane phase (people raging about picking supports, ended up being Rek'sai top w/ Sona support, bot was generic ADC and Thresh, mid was Malzahar I think) and we made them surrender at 20 because I got so many kills against the solo laner top and their jungler just didn't farm our jungle for some dumb reason.
On July 09 2015 05:08 Gahlo wrote: Fiddle-fucking-sticks is 100% ban, imo. Nobody wards enough and he just pops out and melts your team. I'd rather play against an Ezreal.
there are very few people who actually play a competent fiddle similar to shaco
there might not be must bans other than ryze/ez/rengar(last one if you are diamond in euw is a must) but there are a lot of champs that you should try to get banned like irelia/hecarim/azir/kalista/riven/eve/kata/vlad and not gonna comment on junglers since havent seen the new devourer in action yet but looks like fucking terror
On July 09 2015 05:09 AlterKot wrote: I really liked the jungle since the cinderhulk nerf, but right now League is going in a really weird direction - I feel like now's the time to experiment with the meta (now more than ever I feel like doing things such as double bruiser botlane, or perhaps two duolanes with roaming/jungling smite supports).
Vlad/Ryze/Ez are my 100% bans.
So what you're saying is you want to play Dota 2?
In all seriousness, I did have a game on 5.12 where my team went 2-1-2 in lane phase (people raging about picking supports, ended up being Rek'sai top w/ Sona support, bot was generic ADC and Thresh, mid was Malzahar I think) and we made them surrender at 20 because I got so many kills against the solo laner top and their jungler just didn't farm our jungle for some dumb reason.
Actually, farming the enemy jungle isn't much advantage these days. In Season 1 it was huge because buff camps gave so much extra experience and gold that getting all four of them was a huge advantage. These days buff camps yield the same experience as other camps and only slightly more gold, so it's not really worth it unless you run the special Smite for it.
But then if your top laner is feeding it's not really safe to run into the enemy jungle to farm anyway.
On July 09 2015 05:08 Gahlo wrote: Fiddle-fucking-sticks is 100% ban, imo. Nobody wards enough and he just pops out and melts your team. I'd rather play against an Ezreal.
there are very few people who actually play a competent fiddle similar to shaco
there might not be must bans other than ryze/ez/rengar(last one if you are diamond in euw is a must) but there are a lot of champs that you should try to get banned like irelia/hecarim/azir/kalista/riven/eve/kata/vlad and not gonna comment on junglers since havent seen the new devourer in action yet but looks like fucking terror
I've found that the amount of people that can play a competent fiddle is inversely proportional to the amount of people that can play competently against him.
On July 09 2015 05:08 Gahlo wrote: Fiddle-fucking-sticks is 100% ban, imo. Nobody wards enough and he just pops out and melts your team. I'd rather play against an Ezreal.
I wonder how many fiddlesticks are gonna play non stop until the patch since disabling improved stealth totem is probably the biggest buff he will ever see.
On July 08 2015 21:35 Gahlo wrote: Can anybody with PBE access tell me if Warrior still builds out of Brutalizer or not?
Pickaxe + Long sword + T2 Machete
Welp rip reksai (unless you're a cinderhulk pleb I guess).
Might as well go Devourer now.
I really liked the jungle since the cinderhulk nerf, but right now League is going in a really weird direction - I feel like now's the time to experiment with the meta (now more than ever I feel like doing things such as double bruiser botlane, or perhaps two duolanes with roaming/jungling smite supports).
Vlad/Ryze/Ez are my 100% bans.
try smite, it has pretty steep learning curve but once u gain experience its very fun
And now I'm playing Vi, ult Vayne, and Condemn sends me into the wall. She still gets cc'd, mind you. But I end up in the wall instead of near her.
CC immunity guys. I'm the one seeing unexisting bugs guys. Ha ha funny. Vi is fine.
Also fun fact: if you click your ult on someone while out of range, and they become untargetable somehow while you walk into range, your ult will automatically retarget to the closest champion. Vayne tumbles with ult on while you walk? Too bad, you can't click her again when she reappears, you're just going to ult the next closest champion.
Who in their right mind would have coded a retargeting of abilities that you can't even control yourself? That's not even the only spell who does that, and it just causes suicide half the time it happens.
On July 08 2015 21:35 Gahlo wrote: Can anybody with PBE access tell me if Warrior still builds out of Brutalizer or not?
Pickaxe + Long sword + T2 Machete
Welp rip reksai (unless you're a cinderhulk pleb I guess).
Might as well go Devourer now.
I really liked the jungle since the cinderhulk nerf, but right now League is going in a really weird direction - I feel like now's the time to experiment with the meta (now more than ever I feel like doing things such as double bruiser botlane, or perhaps two duolanes with roaming/jungling smite supports).
Vlad/Ryze/Ez are my 100% bans.
maybe you are slowly losing your mind this patch didnt have any buffs for champs that are actually played
On July 08 2015 21:35 Gahlo wrote: Can anybody with PBE access tell me if Warrior still builds out of Brutalizer or not?
Pickaxe + Long sword + T2 Machete
Welp rip reksai (unless you're a cinderhulk pleb I guess).
Might as well go Devourer now.
I really liked the jungle since the cinderhulk nerf, but right now League is going in a really weird direction - I feel like now's the time to experiment with the meta (now more than ever I feel like doing things such as double bruiser botlane, or perhaps two duolanes with roaming/jungling smite supports).
Vlad/Ryze/Ez are my 100% bans.
maybe you are slowly losing your mind this patch didnt have any buffs for champs that are actually played
But my point was exact opposite of "current champions are getting stronger", it was that there might be a big meta shift with warriors nerf, devourer buff and this whole weird ap itemization reshuffle.
But then it's most definitely a gut feeling more than an in-depth analysis.
On July 09 2015 06:36 Alaric wrote: And now I'm playing Vi, ult Vayne, and Condemn sends me into the wall. She still gets cc'd, mind you. But I end up in the wall instead of near her.
CC immunity guys. I'm the one seeing unexisting bugs guys. Ha ha funny. Vi is fine.
Also fun fact: if you click your ult on someone while out of range, and they become untargetable somehow while you walk into range, your ult will automatically retarget to the closest champion. Vayne tumbles with ult on while you walk? Too bad, you can't click her again when she reappears, you're just going to ult the next closest champion.
Who in their right mind would have coded a retargeting of abilities that you can't even control yourself? That's not even the only spell who does that, and it just causes suicide half the time it happens.
You're only CC immune while charging not while dunking, it's working as intended; counterplay and all that good jazz.
On July 09 2015 06:36 Alaric wrote: And now I'm playing Vi, ult Vayne, and Condemn sends me into the wall. She still gets cc'd, mind you. But I end up in the wall instead of near her.
CC immunity guys. I'm the one seeing unexisting bugs guys. Ha ha funny. Vi is fine.
Also fun fact: if you click your ult on someone while out of range, and they become untargetable somehow while you walk into range, your ult will automatically retarget to the closest champion. Vayne tumbles with ult on while you walk? Too bad, you can't click her again when she reappears, you're just going to ult the next closest champion.
Who in their right mind would have coded a retargeting of abilities that you can't even control yourself? That's not even the only spell who does that, and it just causes suicide half the time it happens.
To be fair, Vi's one of the handful of champions that has a bunch of bugs in her kit that Riot refuses to acknowledge or fix.
On July 09 2015 06:49 AlterKot wrote: But my point was exact opposite of "current champions are getting stronger", it was that there might be a big meta shift with warriors nerf, devourer buff and this whole weird ap itemization reshuffle.
But then it's most definitely a gut feeling more than an in-depth analysis.
everyone went cinderhulk anyway and i dont hink its a warrior nerf its obviously a warrior buff only a select few champs can do devourer and evn then auto centric melees very rarely see any play in the pro scene
On July 09 2015 05:08 Gahlo wrote: Fiddle-fucking-sticks is 100% ban, imo. Nobody wards enough and he just pops out and melts your team. I'd rather play against an Ezreal.
there are very few people who actually play a competent fiddle similar to shaco
there might not be must bans other than ryze/ez/rengar(last one if you are diamond in euw is a must) but there are a lot of champs that you should try to get banned like irelia/hecarim/azir/kalista/riven/eve/kata/vlad and not gonna comment on junglers since havent seen the new devourer in action yet but looks like fucking terror
I've found that the amount of people that can play a competent fiddle is inversely proportional to the amount of people that can play competently against him.
On July 09 2015 06:49 AlterKot wrote: But my point was exact opposite of "current champions are getting stronger", it was that there might be a big meta shift with warriors nerf, devourer buff and this whole weird ap itemization reshuffle.
But then it's most definitely a gut feeling more than an in-depth analysis.
The final result of Warrior will probably be a buff, as 10 Armor Pen rarely accounts for a 10% increase in damage. It does, however, have the worst build up by far. Cinderhulk has Bami's, Devourer has Recurve, and Runeglaive has Sheen. If the whole point is Warrior is to be put on bruisers so they have an impact early game before they become outscaled, why change the build path to longsword/pickaxe? That makes the jungler's inventory clutters as fuck until the item is completed and there's no mid build bump to be found. In the end, I think the build path change will really hurt the item more than the finished product will help it. Unless the jungler is snowballing, the carry window is starting to close anyway.
AP itemization changes will help a lot. 1600g from NLR hurts players everywhere but the cost drop will be very welcomes by AP junglers trying to scrape together the more big ticket AP items. Liandry's also gives them a way to deal with tanks to mirror BC while providing a jungle friendly build path.
Devourer is going to be better on most AS junglers and absolutely bonkers on junglers that can abuse the passive for on hits.
On July 08 2015 21:35 Gahlo wrote: Can anybody with PBE access tell me if Warrior still builds out of Brutalizer or not?
Pickaxe + Long sword + T2 Machete
No CDR? Holy shit.
There's CDR, you just don't get it until the combine. Which double sucks.
On July 09 2015 05:20 nafta wrote:
On July 09 2015 05:08 Gahlo wrote: Fiddle-fucking-sticks is 100% ban, imo. Nobody wards enough and he just pops out and melts your team. I'd rather play against an Ezreal.
there are very few people who actually play a competent fiddle similar to shaco
there might not be must bans other than ryze/ez/rengar(last one if you are diamond in euw is a must) but there are a lot of champs that you should try to get banned like irelia/hecarim/azir/kalista/riven/eve/kata/vlad and not gonna comment on junglers since havent seen the new devourer in action yet but looks like fucking terror
I've found that the amount of people that can play a competent fiddle is inversely proportional to the amount of people that can play competently against him.
If it has CDR then it's fine.
Remember Brutalizer to Warrior's is only 63 gold.
yeah but the extra stats aren't really compensated by the cost of the jungle item whereas for the other jungle items they are
On July 08 2015 21:35 Gahlo wrote: Can anybody with PBE access tell me if Warrior still builds out of Brutalizer or not?
Pickaxe + Long sword + T2 Machete
No CDR? Holy shit.
There's CDR, you just don't get it until the combine. Which double sucks.
On July 09 2015 05:20 nafta wrote:
On July 09 2015 05:08 Gahlo wrote: Fiddle-fucking-sticks is 100% ban, imo. Nobody wards enough and he just pops out and melts your team. I'd rather play against an Ezreal.
there are very few people who actually play a competent fiddle similar to shaco
there might not be must bans other than ryze/ez/rengar(last one if you are diamond in euw is a must) but there are a lot of champs that you should try to get banned like irelia/hecarim/azir/kalista/riven/eve/kata/vlad and not gonna comment on junglers since havent seen the new devourer in action yet but looks like fucking terror
I've found that the amount of people that can play a competent fiddle is inversely proportional to the amount of people that can play competently against him.
If it has CDR then it's fine.
Remember Brutalizer to Warrior's is only 63 gold.
Doesn't matter because you didn't need to complete Warrior to get it. Long Sword + Pickaxe is garbage. At that point I'd rather buy a Tiamat, LW, or just say fuck it and buy a Ghostblade.
On July 08 2015 21:35 Gahlo wrote: Can anybody with PBE access tell me if Warrior still builds out of Brutalizer or not?
Pickaxe + Long sword + T2 Machete
No CDR? Holy shit.
There's CDR, you just don't get it until the combine. Which double sucks.
On July 09 2015 05:20 nafta wrote:
On July 09 2015 05:08 Gahlo wrote: Fiddle-fucking-sticks is 100% ban, imo. Nobody wards enough and he just pops out and melts your team. I'd rather play against an Ezreal.
there are very few people who actually play a competent fiddle similar to shaco
there might not be must bans other than ryze/ez/rengar(last one if you are diamond in euw is a must) but there are a lot of champs that you should try to get banned like irelia/hecarim/azir/kalista/riven/eve/kata/vlad and not gonna comment on junglers since havent seen the new devourer in action yet but looks like fucking terror
I've found that the amount of people that can play a competent fiddle is inversely proportional to the amount of people that can play competently against him.
If it has CDR then it's fine.
Remember Brutalizer to Warrior's is only 63 gold.
Doesn't matter because you didn't need to complete Warrior to get it. Long Sword + Pickaxe is garbage. At that point I'd rather buy a Tiamat, LW, or just say fuck it and buy a Ghostblade.
Isnt the difference in cost between a brutalizer and completing warriors from machete <100 gold? Allowing you to buy a pickaxe is actually a mini-buff given that if you were going to buy a brutalizer before you probably wouldve just bought the warriors outright.
On July 09 2015 06:36 Alaric wrote: And now I'm playing Vi, ult Vayne, and Condemn sends me into the wall. She still gets cc'd, mind you. But I end up in the wall instead of near her.
CC immunity guys. I'm the one seeing unexisting bugs guys. Ha ha funny. Vi is fine.
Also fun fact: if you click your ult on someone while out of range, and they become untargetable somehow while you walk into range, your ult will automatically retarget to the closest champion. Vayne tumbles with ult on while you walk? Too bad, you can't click her again when she reappears, you're just going to ult the next closest champion.
Who in their right mind would have coded a retargeting of abilities that you can't even control yourself? That's not even the only spell who does that, and it just causes suicide half the time it happens.
You're only CC immune while charging not while dunking, it's working as intended; counterplay and all that good jazz.
You're cc immune during the whole thing, and I got condemned during the charge.
On July 09 2015 06:36 Alaric wrote: And now I'm playing Vi, ult Vayne, and Condemn sends me into the wall. She still gets cc'd, mind you. But I end up in the wall instead of near her.
CC immunity guys. I'm the one seeing unexisting bugs guys. Ha ha funny. Vi is fine.
Also fun fact: if you click your ult on someone while out of range, and they become untargetable somehow while you walk into range, your ult will automatically retarget to the closest champion. Vayne tumbles with ult on while you walk? Too bad, you can't click her again when she reappears, you're just going to ult the next closest champion.
Who in their right mind would have coded a retargeting of abilities that you can't even control yourself? That's not even the only spell who does that, and it just causes suicide half the time it happens.
You're only CC immune while charging not while dunking, it's working as intended; counterplay and all that good jazz.
You're cc immune during the whole thing, and I got condemned during the charge.
Tbh you've been complaining about Vi's ult bugs for dozens of months now, you should either copy paste them all into a mail for the support team or stop playing Vi. :/
Did both. Also used a VoD of a LCS match where you clearly see it (Thresh Flays Vi out of her dash, although he still gets suppressed at the normal uppercut timing), never had any answer or acknowledgement. And I don't play Vi anymore. I just pick her once in a blue moon out of curiosity and get the great joy of noticing she still has at least some of the stuff.
Isn't that because even if you get cc'd you'll finish the animation? It's basically instant anyway (the tip is) and you can't cancel it to autoattack instead. I have that thing happen super often where I cc someone, they queued a spell, it didn't even start the animation, but because it's queued somehow they perform the whole animation during the cc (it's different from the thing they showed awhile ago where you could buffer an auto during a cc, but I have no idea how it works exactly, just that I cc someone and during the cc they start the animation for a spell and cast it). Kinda removes the point of the cc as a damage reduction.
On July 08 2015 21:35 Gahlo wrote: Can anybody with PBE access tell me if Warrior still builds out of Brutalizer or not?
Pickaxe + Long sword + T2 Machete
No CDR? Holy shit.
There's CDR, you just don't get it until the combine. Which double sucks.
On July 09 2015 05:20 nafta wrote:
On July 09 2015 05:08 Gahlo wrote: Fiddle-fucking-sticks is 100% ban, imo. Nobody wards enough and he just pops out and melts your team. I'd rather play against an Ezreal.
there are very few people who actually play a competent fiddle similar to shaco
there might not be must bans other than ryze/ez/rengar(last one if you are diamond in euw is a must) but there are a lot of champs that you should try to get banned like irelia/hecarim/azir/kalista/riven/eve/kata/vlad and not gonna comment on junglers since havent seen the new devourer in action yet but looks like fucking terror
I've found that the amount of people that can play a competent fiddle is inversely proportional to the amount of people that can play competently against him.
If it has CDR then it's fine.
Remember Brutalizer to Warrior's is only 63 gold.
Doesn't matter because you didn't need to complete Warrior to get it. Long Sword + Pickaxe is garbage. At that point I'd rather buy a Tiamat, LW, or just say fuck it and buy a Ghostblade.
Isnt the difference in cost between a brutalizer and completing warriors from machete <100 gold? Allowing you to buy a pickaxe is actually a mini-buff given that if you were going to buy a brutalizer before you probably wouldve just bought the warriors outright.
Yeah, most of the time when you can buy Brutalizer you should be able to buy Warrios, but there are times you don't and they'll suck hard. You also stall out for close to 900g after picking up longsword with the new buildpath.
I wish they'd just continue the trend and make Warrior a minor Tiamat out of like three long-swords or something. The early game would be exactly what Lee/Rek'sai/Panth need; it's great for AD casters/assassins; it transitions into split-pushing like damage Panth and Lee both do when built damage.
Maybe whenever the AD item pass goes through, I suppose.
On July 09 2015 06:36 Alaric wrote: And now I'm playing Vi, ult Vayne, and Condemn sends me into the wall. She still gets cc'd, mind you. But I end up in the wall instead of near her.
CC immunity guys. I'm the one seeing unexisting bugs guys. Ha ha funny. Vi is fine.
Also fun fact: if you click your ult on someone while out of range, and they become untargetable somehow while you walk into range, your ult will automatically retarget to the closest champion. Vayne tumbles with ult on while you walk? Too bad, you can't click her again when she reappears, you're just going to ult the next closest champion.
Who in their right mind would have coded a retargeting of abilities that you can't even control yourself? That's not even the only spell who does that, and it just causes suicide half the time it happens.
You're only CC immune while charging not while dunking, it's working as intended; counterplay and all that good jazz.
You're cc immune during the whole thing, and I got condemned during the charge.
You are not CC immune during the dunk, this is explicitly stated in the tooltip and why two Vi's can ultimate each other at the same time. It was changed to work as such in the first patch or so after her release.
On July 09 2015 08:02 Alaric wrote: Isn't that because even if you get cc'd you'll finish the animation? It's basically instant anyway (the tip is) and you can't cancel it to autoattack instead. I have that thing happen super often where I cc someone, they queued a spell, it didn't even start the animation, but because it's queued somehow they perform the whole animation during the cc (it's different from the thing they showed awhile ago where you could buffer an auto during a cc, but I have no idea how it works exactly, just that I cc someone and during the cc they start the animation for a spell and cast it). Kinda removes the point of the cc as a damage reduction.
it happens because the spell has a cast time also when you flash as galio you cant instantly ult there is always a delay both human factor and ping which is why you can interrupt his ult with any cc appropriate ability
there is some problem with cc because you can flash something while hit with the cc(tibbers is notorious or reksai knockup) but I guess they just happen at the same time or something not sure why exactly
That really does seem excessive. Without doing the math I'd say that completely outclasses the gold gen of every other support item even if you don't really use the proc that well.
Azir getting nerfed, damn. E no longer knockups or grants a shield.
Frost Queen's Claim +15 Gold (up from 2) per 10 seconds
Frostfang +15 Gold (up from 2) per 10 seconds Spells and basic attacks against champions or buildings deal 10 (down from 15) additional damage and grant 12 Gold (up from 10)
Spellthief's Edge +10 Gold (up from 2) per 10 seconds
On July 09 2015 12:15 739 wrote: Azir getting nerfed, damn. E no longer knockups or grants a shield.
Frost Queen's Claim +15 Gold (up from 2) per 10 seconds
Frostfang +15 Gold (up from 2) per 10 seconds Spells and basic attacks against champions or buildings deal 10 (down from 15) additional damage and grant 12 Gold (up from 10)
Spellthief's Edge +10 Gold (up from 2) per 10 seconds
lmao.
That cant be right on FQC. Its already the best support item for gold.
On July 09 2015 12:15 739 wrote: Azir getting nerfed, damn. E no longer knockups or grants a shield.
Frost Queen's Claim +15 Gold (up from 2) per 10 seconds
Frostfang +15 Gold (up from 2) per 10 seconds Spells and basic attacks against champions or buildings deal 10 (down from 15) additional damage and grant 12 Gold (up from 10)
Spellthief's Edge +10 Gold (up from 2) per 10 seconds
lmao.
That cant be right on FQC. Its already the best support item for gold.
azir's getting all his shit nerfed because riot doesn't want to touch his ult. i doubt these specific changes are gonna go through, but he's not getting through 5.14 unscathed.
untargettable, unkillable, uncounterable units that interact with the enemy team will never, ever be balanced. nor will they ever not be bugged. j4's cataclysm is still bugged. i've watched so many pro games with azir in it where people are getting stuck in his wall in a teamfight and not being able to get out despite there being space for the champion to just walk out.
i suspect that azir's gonna end up as a champ that has one such SUPER GOOD thing in his kit (like ori ult) that nearly everything else about the kit at some point will have to be lowered at to counterbalance it.
anyway those are my hto opinions, my other mid champ is diana so i don't have to worry about shit just yet though i suspect people are realizing she's + Show Spoiler +
On July 09 2015 12:37 suicideyear wrote: azir's getting all his shit nerfed because riot doesn't want to touch his ult.
untargettable, unkillable, uncounterable units that interact with the enemy team will never, ever be balanced. nor will they ever not be bugged. j4's cataclysm is still bugged. i've watched so many pro games with azir in it where people are getting stuck in his wall in a teamfight and not being able to get out despite there being space for the champion to just walk out.
That's exactly the problem with Azir at the moment.
The only thing taking a sizeable nerf is his E. W will replace all the AS of 40% CDR at rank 5. Iirc, Azirs were only getting that high if they went cdr/lvl glyphs.
On July 09 2015 12:39 Gahlo wrote: The only thing taking a sizeable nerf is his E. W will replace all the AS of 40% CDR at rank 5. Iirc, Azirs were only getting that high if they went cdr/lvl glyphs.
Thought most people went scaling cdr blues these days on poke heros
OPness aside, it always annoyed me that they let you cast W on towers...
I mean, here is a champion with absurd waveclear, ranged, who is gonna be stacking a lot of AP, and is givenassloads of free attack speed. So already probably the best mage in the game at pushing down towers, and they were like, no, he needs a special ability to make him wreck them even harder,
been enjoying spamming Vayne lately, but man does it feel like I'm putting my life on the line for every auto in some games. I'm getting really good at her in lane but team fights feel like a rubik's cube
That Deaths Daughter Upgrade on GP's ult is awesome. Same with Fire at Will. Raise moral is kind of meh unless you getting dove on real hard. I guess the zone control is pretty sweet.
How long does it take to get 500 Silver Serpants? 500/4 gp per Parrrley = 125 creeps. Damn. And thats creeps killed by either Q or E.
Speaking of which, it looks like GP could have some friggen sweet waveclear; E is like Zyra W or Azir W, has a charge mechanic with no CD and an 18s recharge time. Basically every wave if you have any CDR you can E+E+Q the entire wave! That pushing power. A Bruiser with potentially instant waveclear... interesting. I'm pumped for him.
His passive looks greatly nerfed though. No Q Passive Procs.
yea problem is, leveling Q increases the serpents you get, so maxing E to gain waveclear is pretty inefficient until 13.
the new passive looks god awful but there is an unlisted ad scaling so that might be it's saving grace if it's not like .1 or something, not being on hit makes it pretty shit, also note that it does not specify target type so when laneing if parrlay is on cd you have to blow it on a minion or lose the cs.
ult damage changed to update twice per second instead of once, it is actually buffed if they sit in it full duration, but before that it alternates per wave so it's mostly a wash (before upgrades)
so basically, ult super slight buff >> to massive buff after upgrades orange cd down from 18>14 at max rank but, the max heal is nerfed until you reach 1400 missing health, I would call this a nerf but it's arguable for tank builds
E seems possily good but likely to be unreliable would have to play it
and parrlay is unchanged other than not getting grog damage
On July 09 2015 12:39 Sufficiency wrote: Why is Riot making all of these dramatic changes when there are 3 weeks of regular season left?
Because there are too many power picks that make a significant portion of the T2 champions irrelevant right now.
That's their fault for bringing out stupid champions such as Kalista and Azir.
Dont disagree, but its not Azir and Kalista exclusively, or even mid/adc. Maokai and Rumble are clearly a tier above in toplane once Ryze nerfs go through; Alistar and Annie are way too valuable bot because they have murdered engage, on the whole; Gragas plus Rek Sai are still the rulers of the jungle, even with Nidalee, Ekko, and Eve being competent picks.
Midlane is actually the lane that is most OK because they have Azir, Viktor, Ryze, Ekko, Cassio plus viable niche picks like TF, Varus, Zed, Ori, etc. And while ADC is mostly Kalista/Sivir/Corki I think most the T2 options are close, compared with the other roles.
On July 09 2015 14:47 Slusher wrote: yea problem is, leveling Q increases the serpents you get, so maxing E to gain waveclear is pretty inefficient until 13.
the new passive looks god awful but there is an unlisted ad scaling so that might be it's saving grace if it's not like .1 or something, not being on hit makes it pretty shit, also note that it does not specify target type so when laneing if parrlay is on cd you have to blow it on a minion or lose the cs.
ult damage changed to update twice per second instead of once, it is actually buffed if they sit in it full duration, but before that it alternates per wave so it's mostly a wash (before upgrades)
so basically, ult super slight buff >> to massive buff after upgrades orange cd down from 18>14 at max rank but, the max heal is nerfed until you reach 1400 missing health, I would call this a nerf but it's arguable for tank builds
E seems possily good but likely to be unreliable would have to play it
and parrlay is unchanged other than not getting grog damage
That's the thing though, your E damage is equal to the damage of the attack used to proc it; you Q a barrel with shiv and your barrels are doing Q damage AoE.
Essentially you can Q the whole wave.
I also think he'll be a much improved jungler; that E slow is massive, gives gp much much more gank pressure, and he already clears quite well without E's AoE.
Up to 3x 80% x 2s slows with no decay? Damn. That's worse than Nasus wither... you get caught with a chilling smite and a barrel slow you're dead 100%. Old gp passive slow wasnt even notable if they had boots of some sort.
On July 09 2015 12:39 Sufficiency wrote: Why is Riot making all of these dramatic changes when there are 3 weeks of regular season left?
Because there are too many power picks that make a significant portion of the T2 champions irrelevant right now.
That's their fault for bringing out stupid champions such as Kalista and Azir.
Dont disagree, but its not Azir and Kalista exclusively, or even mid/adc. Maokai and Rumble are clearly a tier above in toplane once Ryze nerfs go through; Alistar and Annie are way too valuable bot because they have murdered engage, on the whole; Gragas plus Rek Sai are still the rulers of the jungle, even with Nidalee, Ekko, and Eve being competent picks.
Midlane is actually the lane that is most OK because they have Azir, Viktor, Ryze, Ekko, Cassio plus viable niche picks like TF, Varus, Zed, Ori, etc. And while ADC is mostly Kalista/Sivir/Corki I think most the T2 options are close, compared with the other roles.
Rumble will be even more pick/ban with the AP itemisation changes.
Top and Jungle are in a terrible spot at the moment, and the other lanes are only slightly better. We need to see more top Riven and mid Yi. Hell, I'll take more Kennan support, despite the fact I loathe that champ.
On July 09 2015 12:39 Sufficiency wrote: Why is Riot making all of these dramatic changes when there are 3 weeks of regular season left?
Because there are too many power picks that make a significant portion of the T2 champions irrelevant right now.
That's their fault for bringing out stupid champions such as Kalista and Azir.
Dont disagree, but its not Azir and Kalista exclusively, or even mid/adc. Maokai and Rumble are clearly a tier above in toplane once Ryze nerfs go through; Alistar and Annie are way too valuable bot because they have murdered engage, on the whole; Gragas plus Rek Sai are still the rulers of the jungle, even with Nidalee, Ekko, and Eve being competent picks.
Midlane is actually the lane that is most OK because they have Azir, Viktor, Ryze, Ekko, Cassio plus viable niche picks like TF, Varus, Zed, Ori, etc. And while ADC is mostly Kalista/Sivir/Corki I think most the T2 options are close, compared with the other roles.
Rumble will be even more pick/ban with the AP itemisation changes.
Top and Jungle are in a terrible spot at the moment, and the other lanes are only slightly better. We need to see more top Riven and mid Yi. Hell, I'll take more Kennan support, despite the fact I loathe that champ.
Champion diversity in League never feels good.
I think the big problem is the lack of bans. With a huge pool and 6 bans essentially game boils down to picking the best champs at each niche.
While there are still inventive comps, you also cannot get as inventive because you need to ban out the top 5 champs who are in the must pick ban tier.
We get 10 bans, 12 bans we see champion diversity skyrocket.
On July 09 2015 12:39 Sufficiency wrote: Why is Riot making all of these dramatic changes when there are 3 weeks of regular season left?
Because there are too many power picks that make a significant portion of the T2 champions irrelevant right now.
That's their fault for bringing out stupid champions such as Kalista and Azir.
Dont disagree, but its not Azir and Kalista exclusively, or even mid/adc. Maokai and Rumble are clearly a tier above in toplane once Ryze nerfs go through; Alistar and Annie are way too valuable bot because they have murdered engage, on the whole; Gragas plus Rek Sai are still the rulers of the jungle, even with Nidalee, Ekko, and Eve being competent picks.
Midlane is actually the lane that is most OK because they have Azir, Viktor, Ryze, Ekko, Cassio plus viable niche picks like TF, Varus, Zed, Ori, etc. And while ADC is mostly Kalista/Sivir/Corki I think most the T2 options are close, compared with the other roles.
Rumble will be even more pick/ban with the AP itemisation changes.
Top and Jungle are in a terrible spot at the moment, and the other lanes are only slightly better. We need to see more top Riven and mid Yi. Hell, I'll take more Kennan support, despite the fact I loathe that champ.
Champion diversity in League never feels good.
I think the big problem is the lack of bans. With a huge pool and 6 bans essentially game boils down to picking the best champs at each niche.
While there are still inventive comps, you also cannot get as inventive because you need to ban out the top 5 champs who are in the must pick ban tier.
We get 10 bans, 12 bans we see champion diversity skyrocket.
Especially if they are interwoven.
Its not just bans. Its that anytime a champion has an exploitable part of its powercurve (except some minor Pre-6 issues) its no longer viable. There are almost no champions in league that, assuming equal skill, are 20+ CS ahead or behind the FOTM champions, while also being situationally optimal.
Diverse power curves is the key to champion diversity.
On July 09 2015 12:39 Sufficiency wrote: Why is Riot making all of these dramatic changes when there are 3 weeks of regular season left?
Because there are too many power picks that make a significant portion of the T2 champions irrelevant right now.
That's their fault for bringing out stupid champions such as Kalista and Azir.
Dont disagree, but its not Azir and Kalista exclusively, or even mid/adc. Maokai and Rumble are clearly a tier above in toplane once Ryze nerfs go through; Alistar and Annie are way too valuable bot because they have murdered engage, on the whole; Gragas plus Rek Sai are still the rulers of the jungle, even with Nidalee, Ekko, and Eve being competent picks.
Midlane is actually the lane that is most OK because they have Azir, Viktor, Ryze, Ekko, Cassio plus viable niche picks like TF, Varus, Zed, Ori, etc. And while ADC is mostly Kalista/Sivir/Corki I think most the T2 options are close, compared with the other roles.
Rumble will be even more pick/ban with the AP itemisation changes.
Top and Jungle are in a terrible spot at the moment, and the other lanes are only slightly better. We need to see more top Riven and mid Yi. Hell, I'll take more Kennan support, despite the fact I loathe that champ.
Champion diversity in League never feels good.
I think the big problem is the lack of bans. With a huge pool and 6 bans essentially game boils down to picking the best champs at each niche.
While there are still inventive comps, you also cannot get as inventive because you need to ban out the top 5 champs who are in the must pick ban tier.
We get 10 bans, 12 bans we see champion diversity skyrocket.
Especially if they are interwoven.
Its not just bans. Its that anytime a champion has an exploitable part of its powercurve (except some minor Pre-6 issues) its no longer viable. There are almost no champions in league that, assuming equal skill, are 20+ CS ahead or behind the FOTM champions, while also being situationally optimal.
Diverse power curves is the key to champion diversity.
And then a champ like Syndra gets 20 base damage knocked off her main skill because she's too good early. Rito pls
There's also the problem that too many champs have what I can best describe as 'general power'. They just do most things well, without massive downsides. Take Gragas and Rek'sai as an example. They both provide pretty much everything you could want from a jungler. They clear well, provide early ganking pressure with their early damage, CC and mobility and can then transition into tanks effectively.
I know Azir is getting changed, but that's part of his problem as well - Sure he might be designed around DPS and Zone Control, but he also offers poke and sick wave clear, as well as having some escape ability. Why pick a champ that is just good at zoning, when you can get zoning, poke, DPS and some safety as well?
On July 09 2015 12:39 Sufficiency wrote: Why is Riot making all of these dramatic changes when there are 3 weeks of regular season left?
Because there are too many power picks that make a significant portion of the T2 champions irrelevant right now.
That's their fault for bringing out stupid champions such as Kalista and Azir.
Dont disagree, but its not Azir and Kalista exclusively, or even mid/adc. Maokai and Rumble are clearly a tier above in toplane once Ryze nerfs go through; Alistar and Annie are way too valuable bot because they have murdered engage, on the whole; Gragas plus Rek Sai are still the rulers of the jungle, even with Nidalee, Ekko, and Eve being competent picks.
Midlane is actually the lane that is most OK because they have Azir, Viktor, Ryze, Ekko, Cassio plus viable niche picks like TF, Varus, Zed, Ori, etc. And while ADC is mostly Kalista/Sivir/Corki I think most the T2 options are close, compared with the other roles.
Rumble will be even more pick/ban with the AP itemisation changes.
Top and Jungle are in a terrible spot at the moment, and the other lanes are only slightly better. We need to see more top Riven and mid Yi. Hell, I'll take more Kennan support, despite the fact I loathe that champ.
Champion diversity in League never feels good.
I think the big problem is the lack of bans. With a huge pool and 6 bans essentially game boils down to picking the best champs at each niche.
While there are still inventive comps, you also cannot get as inventive because you need to ban out the top 5 champs who are in the must pick ban tier.
We get 10 bans, 12 bans we see champion diversity skyrocket.
Especially if they are interwoven.
Its not just bans. Its that anytime a champion has an exploitable part of its powercurve (except some minor Pre-6 issues) its no longer viable. There are almost no champions in league that, assuming equal skill, are 20+ CS ahead or behind the FOTM champions, while also being situationally optimal.
Diverse power curves is the key to champion diversity.
And then a champ like Syndra gets 20 base damage knocked off her main skill because she's too good early. Rito pls
There's also the problem that too many champs have what I can best describe as 'general power'. They just do most things well, without massive downsides. Take Gragas and Rek'sai as an example. They both provide pretty much everything you could want from a jungler. They clear well, provide early ganking pressure with their early damage, CC and mobility and can then transition into tanks effectively.
I know Azir is getting changed, but that's part of his problem as well - Sure he might be designed around DPS and Zone Control, but he also offers poke and sick wave clear, as well as having some escape ability. Why pick a champ that is just good at zoning, when you can get zoning, poke, DPS and some safety as well?
Im just a pleb, but the Azir problem is that he is clearly a lategame champion. His lvl 1 being terrible is the first thing you notice, and the fact that he gets more soldiers with more levels is the second. However, he is not a terrible lvl 1-6 or even 1-11 champion, which is what DOTA would do to Azir. Moreover, if he was, he would not be viable. This is just the designers' mistake. In not recognizing how powercurves are supposed to work.
When Renekton was balanced (long ago) he dominated 1-11. At equal skill against Jax, Irelia, etc he would be 15-30 CS ahead, but that was not a win. That was just being even. At some point, that was actually winning so only champions named Mundo and Shyvana could compete because they had the same powercurve with minor modifications. And thus, we have the Toplane problem. In modern times, we have the same problem translated to many lanes, which is the LOL competitive diversity problem.
I also think that more bans will help diversity. Having 10 bans or 5 per team will allow you to force out a whole FOTM line from a particular role. For example tank jungles are OP, ban all of them and force something non-meta. Next game you may ban all AP tops and again force something different. Next game all caster adcs and so and so on. Unless a role is OP in comparison with other roles, meaning that you want to ban tank junglers every game for example, then we will have more diversity. But balancing the impact of the roles should not be such an issue.
Another thing that will probably impact the diversity is the itemization. At the moment only the defensive itemization may vary to some extend. Meaning that you can itemize against AP or AD or against AOE or mixed damage, maybe something else. However, if you need an offensive itemization there is always one superior path for every game, no matter what is your team or the enemy.
Eh, people don't even know how MF works, that's how popular she was. Applying the damage from stacks of Impure Shots was already how it worked after her first rework but reddit and every datamining site is listing it as if it was something new brought by her VU. Also no huge gp10.
Mundo doesn't have the same powercurve as Renekton nor Irelia, what are you talking about?
On July 09 2015 12:39 Gahlo wrote: The only thing taking a sizeable nerf is his E. W will replace all the AS of 40% CDR at rank 5. Iirc, Azirs were only getting that high if they went cdr/lvl glyphs.
Thought most people went scaling cdr blues these days on poke heros
They do, but Azir'll hit 40% CDR at 18 while getting the AS through W will give the same amount of AS at 13, since it's maxed second.
On July 09 2015 22:04 riotjune wrote: I'm done reading patch notes rito shits out every week. I just go into ranked and wing it now.
I normally watch Saint patch preview
Saint: Nerf to Xin's AP ratio. Hur, Riot lets broken shit come out like Luden's but we gotta stop AP Xin because of the 2-3 people that player it.
Doesn't notice they specifically said in the change summary it was because Xin was outhealing Mundo.
I like Saint's rundowns, but some times his like of insight or ability to read is painful. Either way, still better than the rundown Scarra did for this patch. *shudders*
+5 for dragon/baron, still giving stacks when handing off blues, +2 for Scuttles. People that don't stack this well are wasting a lot of time and map presence their champion is supposed to provide.
On July 10 2015 02:08 snow2.0 wrote: I hope whoever thought of giving kayle a buff at the same time as releasing an item that doubles on-hit effects every other hit gets fired.
Now i wonder: is yis doublestrike an on-hit effect? If yes, does sated devourer turn it into triple or quadra strike?
Double Strike stacks on on-hit. The pattern goes:
Attack 1: Normal attack(1stack) Attack 2: Normal attack + double on-hit(3 stack) Attack 3: Normal attack(4stack) Attack 4: Normal attack + double onhit(resets and 1 stack), Double Strike(2 stack) Attack 5: Normal attack + double onhit(4 stack) Attack 6: Normal attack(resets), Double Strike + double on-hit(3 stacks) Loop 3-6.
Damn I've just played a game of Tahm Kench and uhm, after only one game, he seems pretty so-so for me. I mean, that W damage is pretty ridiculous on tanks, saving your allies and that global ult is pretty nice but uhm, I'm not amused.
Much like Ekko (but less overtuned) Tahm has a bunch of shit that looks pretty op, except it's all wrapped up in specific use cases. Or you kite him and spam laugh.
The scaling is ridiculous if you get to farm a bit and to late game, Devour does ridiculous damage to squishies too (35% max health, duh—before applying his ult's passive), and more importantly if you thought Maokai is tanky, proper usage of his E makes him at least as tanky as him even with the level 1, math-wise (well, a bit less).
Of course he won't 100-0 people, and he can get kited, but if he's ridiculously hard to kill, and he smashes if he gets in.
Like, in lane, CSing is so damned horrible with it, it just amazes me. Only after 6 you can actually trade/cs properly. Makes me sad, I like the champion. Not sure if I should take some AD in runes/masteries to help, I tried once but even so, kinda meh.
After playing a game, death recap is still garbage. Looks like they removed what doesn't exist from it, but didn't add anything of what was missing. So 1.2k damage listed when I lost 3k+. :/
So now that AP stuff has been kinda nerfed as a whole (and I don't think I'll feel good playing AP mid with all that changes), and that Ez isn't broken as fuck anymore (wasn't autowin, but still), I'm looking for the strongest picks right now for ranked, any advices ?
On July 10 2015 06:16 Sakray wrote: So now that AP stuff has been kinda nerfed as a whole (and I don't think I'll feel good playing AP mid with all that changes), and that Ez isn't broken as fuck anymore (wasn't autowin, but still), I'm looking for the strongest picks right now for ranked, any advices ?
how is it in any way not a buff across the board? strongest picks for solo queue are and will always be the character you can play for hundreds or thousands of games without being bored.
On July 10 2015 06:36 Fildun wrote: Alright, this might be the first and last time I'll make a "omg champ x is broken" post in GD, but really guys, jungle Kayle is legit superstrong.
From one test today vs one test pre-patch: It's a huge difference.
no, the entire point is to get double hits of E buff which is modified by ap.
On July 10 2015 06:16 Sakray wrote: So now that AP stuff has been kinda nerfed as a whole (and I don't think I'll feel good playing AP mid with all that changes), and that Ez isn't broken as fuck anymore (wasn't autowin, but still), I'm looking for the strongest picks right now for ranked, any advices ?
Ap Ez still one of the strongest picks atm the luden's [bug] was doing him some favors but not as many as Runeglaive.
the changes on the pbe today (runeglaive only being aoe on monster hits ez ult from .9 to .6) will kill this trend but the changes in today's patch are mearly a bump in the road
The Luden's change is more of a nerf. Due to soft caps, going tom 7 to 10% is about a 8-9 MS gain at the cost of 20AP. Not to mention it doesn't even have synergy with Runeglaive anymore anyway.
I was referring to the synergy change between Glaive and Luden's as a nerf, sorry (I fixed it)
the long and short is, ez don't need no luden's bullshit he just needs aoe waveclear to be strong and blasting smite and Runeglaive will still give it to him for one more patch
nevermind, this is wize, runeglaive only being aoe on monsters will put him back to where he was a month ago super good late, super terrible until 4+ items, which is enough imo.
nevermind, this is wize, runeglaive only being aoe on monsters will put him back to where he was a month ago super good late, super terrible until 4+ items, which is enough imo.
Eh, blasting smite will still help. Not sure if the lack of damage conversion will make him still choose it over Lichbane anymore though.
On July 10 2015 07:24 AsmodeusXI wrote: Runes/build for jungle Kayle this patch? Might wanna try some tonight.
Attackspeed reds/quints, AP blues, armor seals. You can also do AP quints. 21/9/0
Devourer into what? Nashors? AP after?
I go Hybrid Pen Marks, Flat Armor Seals, AP/Level Glyphs, AS Quints. 21/9 or 21/6/3 Itemization is pretty much all AS items, so Hybrid Pen makes more sense to me. Devourer, Nashor's, Hurricane. Fit in Vamp Scepter when you feel like you need the life steal. Builds into Botrk. Zerkers early, swap for Sorc later. GA or whatever you want for 6th item. You can pretty much 3 shot enemy carries.
On July 10 2015 08:50 Frolossus wrote: sated devourer feels decidedly weaker to me on shyv
to elaborate maybe it's stronger if you're playing from behind and apparently you can solo baron sooner but the 6 item endgame is super underwhelming.
Shyv's 6 item always felt underwhelming to me unless you could get there 1-2 items up on whoever you're going up against. gap closer on ulti, and no hard CC means that one well timed CC fucks your entire teamfight up unless you're tanky enough to to burn through the frontline and keep going.
Reminds me, have people played Gragas since 5.12? Feels like I drop super low, going 21/9 and AS/armour/MR/AP, even with a somewhat decent leash on krugs or gromp. Camp -> buff -> buff -> gank level 3 isn't really doable anymore (I don't think I've seen many junglers who can pull it off), and even taking a camp that'll die fast like raptors, or the crab, doesn't give enough health to make it easily workable.
Is that normal? I think I'm using standard runes/masteries for this.
Tried jungling Zac too but E's cd is so long before it's maxed it's really really hard to have presence early, between the short range, ultra-long cd (longer than you take to clear a camp, and you're super slow to clear a camp). On top of that it seems to often cancel itself during the charge (although it may have been the server fucking up since I've had so many games glitch on me the past 3 days; sometimes it's also me right-clicking near the landing point so it cancels which is normal). My first game with him went well but you've got a long cd ult (like Vi) and if people have a moddicum of MS more than you, they can make you knock them away from your allies by moving during E, or between E and R (you can't really afford to walk past them after landing E because then they can flash your ult at will between the delay post-E and R's cast animation, Zac's not Sion). Add to it the cost of ganks since you're using a ~20s cd which is also your maxed ability for them, so you've got to wait before you start a camp again.
On July 10 2015 08:50 Frolossus wrote: sated devourer feels decidedly weaker to me on shyv
to elaborate maybe it's stronger if you're playing from behind and apparently you can solo baron sooner but the 6 item endgame is super underwhelming.
Shyv's 6 item always felt underwhelming to me unless you could get there 1-2 items up on whoever you're going up against. gap closer on ulti, and no hard CC means that one well timed CC fucks your entire teamfight up unless you're tanky enough to to burn through the frontline and keep going.
it does but that's why her playstyle is about warding aggressively and picking off people 1-3 at a time. she sucks at 5v5 fights. i do think i'd rather have 150 magic damage/hit devourer over this new thing though
On July 10 2015 08:50 Frolossus wrote: sated devourer feels decidedly weaker to me on shyv
to elaborate maybe it's stronger if you're playing from behind and apparently you can solo baron sooner but the 6 item endgame is super underwhelming.
Shyv's 6 item always felt underwhelming to me unless you could get there 1-2 items up on whoever you're going up against. gap closer on ulti, and no hard CC means that one well timed CC fucks your entire teamfight up unless you're tanky enough to to burn through the frontline and keep going.
it does but that's why her playstyle is about warding aggressively and picking off people 1-3 at a time. she sucks at 5v5 fights. i do think i'd rather have 150 magic damage/hit devourer over this new thing though
Devourer's not really about lategame anymore. One of their biggest reasons for changing it. Infinite scaling has too much potential for bullshit both ways when it's as direct as old Devourer. But now your 30 stack devourer is *much* better and also comes notably quicker.
On July 10 2015 08:50 Frolossus wrote: sated devourer feels decidedly weaker to me on shyv
On July 10 2015 09:50 Frolossus wrote: i do think i'd rather have 150 magic damage/hit devourer over this new thing though
Well, it's flat-out better right at the start (+5 on-hit), and it stacks faster than it did before, so you must mean post-sated devourer.
You get 3 Sated hits (180 on hit) for every 2 old-devourer hits, so you'd need 90 on-hit (65 stacks) to break even, assuming you have no other on-hits. With Wit's End you need 111 on-hit (86 stacks) old old-devourer to break even. Botrk math is harder but at ~1000hp it's on-hit is like double Wit's, but physical so probably about even post-resist.
So I dunno new devourer seems like it's better for a really really long time now.
Elise Cocoon (Human E)* stun duration increased to 1.6/1.7/1.8/1.9/2 seconds from 1.5 at all ranks [Note: Live values for stun are currently 1/1.25/1.5/1.75/2 seconds.] Cocoon (Human E) cooldown reverted to 14/13/12/11/10 sec from 14/12.5/11/9.5/8 sec [Note: Reverted back to live values.]
yay ! also
Frostfang, Frost Queen's Claim, Spellthief's Edge [The wacky gold generation value changes are reverted - all three are back to live values.]
phew ! That was one of the most retarded ideas after Feral Flare v2
On July 10 2015 09:51 Gahlo wrote: Just a reminder that Wit's is pretty crazy on Devourers is you like being selfish.
Botrk should still be better in basically any situation. The only real advantage of wits is that it's cheap. But it's not more gold efficient than BotRK or components and it's not more slot efficient.
On July 10 2015 09:51 Gahlo wrote: Just a reminder that Wit's is pretty crazy on Devourers is you like being selfish.
Botrk should still be better in basically any situation. The only real advantage of wits is that it's cheap. But it's not more gold efficient than BotRK or components and it's not more slot efficient.
On July 10 2015 09:51 Gahlo wrote: Just a reminder that Wit's is pretty crazy on Devourers is you like being selfish.
Botrk should still be better in basically any situation. The only real advantage of wits is that it's cheap. But it's not more gold efficient than BotRK or components and it's not more slot efficient.
Tried out Devour Kayle, I think you need to play it super greedy until it converts because I was really weak for way too long, but once it finished it I was super strong.
I used aspd marks, amor, cdr with ap quints instead of Neo's setup, is this possibly the problem?
I mean we never lost another team fight after it converted but idk I def feel like it could be optimized
@Tahm Kench's horrible CSing: Doesn't Devour do enough damage with a smidge of AP so you can just max it and oneshot the casters and one melee/cannon minion?
On July 10 2015 11:59 739 wrote: Frostfang, Frost Queen's Claim, Spellthief's Edge [The wacky gold generation value changes are reverted - all three are back to live values.]
phew ! That was one of the most retarded ideas after Feral Flare v2
They said it was unintended and shouldn't have appeared anywhere.
On July 10 2015 09:51 Gahlo wrote: Just a reminder that Wit's is pretty crazy on Devourers is you like being selfish.
Botrk should still be better in basically any situation. The only real advantage of wits is that it's cheap. But it's not more gold efficient than BotRK or components and it's not more slot efficient.
i really don't think wit's end does much for you at all if you need defense against magic damage unless you already have a bunch of EHP from other sources.
Shyvana is so broken... She does ridiculous damage while being tanky. Creative flanks are of course important and if you pull off the flank into the carries you pretty much win. Or you just straight up run at them and win because silvers can't peel.
On July 10 2015 21:51 chalice wrote: i really don't think wit's end does much for you at all if you need defense against magic damage unless you already have a bunch of EHP from other sources.
55 MR is substantial even if you don't have any Health items (at level 13 it's like having another 876 Health), and you can immediately follow up with a Giant's Belt for Rylai's if that's an issue (and you almost certainly want Rylai's because it makes your E a 40% AoE slow).
So the question on my mind isn't BotRK vs Wit's End so much as whether Wit's End or Rylai's is a better follow up to Devourer (probably Rylai's) and subsequently whether Wit's End is a better third item than something like Hurricane/Nashor's/etc.
On July 10 2015 21:51 chalice wrote: i really don't think wit's end does much for you at all if you need defense against magic damage unless you already have a bunch of EHP from other sources.
55 MR is substantial even if you don't have any Health items (at level 13 it's like having another 876 Health), and you can immediately follow up with a Giant's Belt for Rylai's if that's an issue (and you almost certainly want Rylai's because it makes your E a 40% AoE slow).
So the question on my mind isn't BotRK vs Wit's End so much as whether Wit's End or Rylai's is a better follow up to Devourer (probably Rylai's) and subsequently whether Wit's End is a better third item than something like Hurricane/Nashor's/etc.
Mmm Rylai's Hurricane sounds fun. Guess more Kayle today. Question now is do I cut/delay Nashor's. And Rylai over GA? Wit's is nice on paper but it's outclassed by at least three other AS items. So unless enemy team has like 4 AP dmg sources, i'm going to pass.
Does swain's ult keep going while devoured by Tahm? It says it puts the target in stasis and Swain's ult still runs in zhonyas. Swain ulting while zhonyas then getting devoured by allied Tahm after zhonyas wears off is what like 6+ seconds of stasis while ulting in the middle of a teamfight? And if enemy tries to run Tahm can spit you at them.
All the AP changes were a big help to Swain, he needs AP and mana more than health so the rod change helps, cheaper NLR/Zhonyas helps him hit his ROA + Zhonyas midgame spike faster, and his ult is amazing with liandries too. Might have to start playing him again.
It does, stuff like sunfire keeps dealing its AoE damage too.
The changes help stuff like Kayle, Anivia, Vlad, and Runeglaive brings champions like Diana. Sure Swain's still strong in lane vs some of them, but outside of laning none of his issues are solved and these champions are a pain for him.
Lane Devourer may be the worst thing. It's probably half-functional in soloq if you just run games to 40 minutes, but if you don't, the only way you'll have it at an acceptable time is if you're already winning so hard you could build 5 BTs and win anyway. QT won like 2 games out of 7 or some shit and both games he was 10/x/x before he even had Sated.
On July 10 2015 21:51 chalice wrote: i really don't think wit's end does much for you at all if you need defense against magic damage unless you already have a bunch of EHP from other sources.
55 MR is substantial even if you don't have any Health items (at level 13 it's like having another 876 Health), and you can immediately follow up with a Giant's Belt for Rylai's if that's an issue (and you almost certainly want Rylai's because it makes your E a 40% AoE slow).
So the question on my mind isn't BotRK vs Wit's End so much as whether Wit's End or Rylai's is a better follow up to Devourer (probably Rylai's) and subsequently whether Wit's End is a better third item than something like Hurricane/Nashor's/etc.
Mmm Rylai's Hurricane sounds fun. Guess more Kayle today. Question now is do I cut/delay Nashor's. And Rylai over GA? Wit's is nice on paper but it's outclassed by at least three other AS items. So unless enemy team has like 4 AP dmg sources, i'm going to pass.
Rylai's vs Nashor's as a follow up to Devourer is a tough question, but I think Rylai's wins until Riot inevitably changes Kayle's E to only proc the 20% slow. From there I think you're situationally choosing between Narshor's/Zhonya's/GA and so on.
On July 11 2015 01:15 Caiada wrote: Lane Devourer may be the worst thing. It's probably half-functional in soloq if you just run games to 40 minutes, but if you don't, the only way you'll have it at an acceptable time is if you're already winning so hard you could build 5 BTs and win anyway. QT won like 2 games out of 7 or some shit and both games he was 10/x/x before he even had Sated.
actually I think the biggest devourer buff was to laners that wanted it but obviously couldn't buy it. Sated is much better on solo q for laners then the old one.
The powerspike is nice for junglers but I really miss having my 60+ stack devourer warwick in late games, it kinda falls off later.
Since you only need few stacks now and dragon and scuttlers both give it, its pretty easy to become sated as a laner now if your top lane.
On July 10 2015 21:51 chalice wrote: i really don't think wit's end does much for you at all if you need defense against magic damage unless you already have a bunch of EHP from other sources.
55 MR is substantial even if you don't have any Health items (at level 13 it's like having another 876 Health), and you can immediately follow up with a Giant's Belt for Rylai's if that's an issue (and you almost certainly want Rylai's because it makes your E a 40% AoE slow).
So the question on my mind isn't BotRK vs Wit's End so much as whether Wit's End or Rylai's is a better follow up to Devourer (probably Rylai's) and subsequently whether Wit's End is a better third item than something like Hurricane/Nashor's/etc.
Mmm Rylai's Hurricane sounds fun. Guess more Kayle today. Question now is do I cut/delay Nashor's. And Rylai over GA? Wit's is nice on paper but it's outclassed by at least three other AS items. So unless enemy team has like 4 AP dmg sources, i'm going to pass.
Rylai's vs Nashor's as a follow up to Devourer is a tough question, but I think Rylai's wins until Riot inevitably changes Kayle's E to only proc the 20% slow. From there I think you're situationally choosing between Narshor's/Zhonya's/GA and so on.
I'll try Dev, Zerker, Rylai's, Hurricane's and see how it goes. Missing out on the 20% CDR from Nashor's is going to hurt imo. idk if you can keep up E perma-on. Might have to change my Glyphs then.
On July 11 2015 01:15 Caiada wrote: Lane Devourer may be the worst thing. It's probably half-functional in soloq if you just run games to 40 minutes, but if you don't, the only way you'll have it at an acceptable time is if you're already winning so hard you could build 5 BTs and win anyway. QT won like 2 games out of 7 or some shit and both games he was 10/x/x before he even had Sated.
actually I think the biggest devourer buff was to laners that wanted it but obviously couldn't buy it. Sated is much better on solo q for laners then the old one.
The powerspike is nice for junglers but I really miss having my 60+ stack devourer warwick in late games, it kinda falls off later.
Since you only need few stacks now and dragon and scuttlers both give it, its pretty easy to become sated as a laner now if your top lane.
Who would you get Dev on for Top Lane? Shyv comes to mind easily. Just shove lane with EW constantly then go farm camps. Fizz maybe?? I wouldn't get it on Hec.
On July 11 2015 00:20 DrunkenOne wrote: Does swain's ult keep going while devoured by Tahm? It says it puts the target in stasis and Swain's ult still runs in zhonyas. Swain ulting while zhonyas then getting devoured by allied Tahm after zhonyas wears off is what like 6+ seconds of stasis while ulting in the middle of a teamfight? And if enemy tries to run Tahm can spit you at them.
All the AP changes were a big help to Swain, he needs AP and mana more than health so the rod change helps, cheaper NLR/Zhonyas helps him hit his ROA + Zhonyas midgame spike faster, and his ult is amazing with liandries too. Might have to start playing him again.
might help you reach his 6 item point faster, the quicker you do that on Swain the better(which could be said of any hero, but swain especially imo)
I think devourer might not be functioning properly, but I haven't had time to test this is a custom or anything. I was playing xin last night and finished devourer, took one camp, got two kills bot, took dragon (didn't get killing blow), then crab. Ended that with 5 stacks but should have had 10. I read the tool tip again and it says takedown on epic monsters count, but that's my best guess as to what happened.
On July 10 2015 21:51 chalice wrote: i really don't think wit's end does much for you at all if you need defense against magic damage unless you already have a bunch of EHP from other sources.
55 MR is substantial even if you don't have any Health items (at level 13 it's like having another 876 Health), and you can immediately follow up with a Giant's Belt for Rylai's if that's an issue (and you almost certainly want Rylai's because it makes your E a 40% AoE slow).
So the question on my mind isn't BotRK vs Wit's End so much as whether Wit's End or Rylai's is a better follow up to Devourer (probably Rylai's) and subsequently whether Wit's End is a better third item than something like Hurricane/Nashor's/etc.
Mmm Rylai's Hurricane sounds fun. Guess more Kayle today. Question now is do I cut/delay Nashor's. And Rylai over GA? Wit's is nice on paper but it's outclassed by at least three other AS items. So unless enemy team has like 4 AP dmg sources, i'm going to pass.
Rylai's vs Nashor's as a follow up to Devourer is a tough question, but I think Rylai's wins until Riot inevitably changes Kayle's E to only proc the 20% slow. From there I think you're situationally choosing between Narshor's/Zhonya's/GA and so on.
I'll try Dev, Zerker, Rylai's, Hurricane's and see how it goes. Missing out on the 20% CDR from Nashor's is going to hurt imo. idk if you can keep up E perma-on. Might have to change my Glyphs then.
On July 11 2015 01:15 Caiada wrote: Lane Devourer may be the worst thing. It's probably half-functional in soloq if you just run games to 40 minutes, but if you don't, the only way you'll have it at an acceptable time is if you're already winning so hard you could build 5 BTs and win anyway. QT won like 2 games out of 7 or some shit and both games he was 10/x/x before he even had Sated.
actually I think the biggest devourer buff was to laners that wanted it but obviously couldn't buy it. Sated is much better on solo q for laners then the old one.
The powerspike is nice for junglers but I really miss having my 60+ stack devourer warwick in late games, it kinda falls off later.
Since you only need few stacks now and dragon and scuttlers both give it, its pretty easy to become sated as a laner now if your top lane.
Who would you get Dev on for Top Lane? Shyv comes to mind easily. Just shove lane with EW constantly then go farm camps. Fizz maybe?? I wouldn't get it on Hec.
top lane yi, top vayne top kayle, etc I like yi top a lot since he shouldn't be relied as some1 to pressure.
On July 10 2015 22:47 gobbledydook wrote: Shyvana is so broken... She does ridiculous damage while being tanky. Creative flanks are of course important and if you pull off the flank into the carries you pretty much win. Or you just straight up run at them and win because silvers can't peel.
On July 11 2015 03:21 Slayer91 wrote: you mean without the jungle item that adds free damage, free cdr on q, and free on hit damage on w and e as well?
nah, i mean with the stronger burnout and better jungle item.
20 damage off burnout and the gimmick-ass infinite stacks of Devourer don't make up for her Sated/Botrk being 10 times the powerspike anything was for her pre-patch.
On July 11 2015 03:44 Caiada wrote: 20 damage off burnout and the gimmick-ass infinite stacks of Devourer don't make up for her Sated/Botrk being 10 times the powerspike anything was for her pre-patch.
the amount of games where you actually stacked higher than that 65 stacks is probably like <10% of games and even then you still have to make up the phantom damage from Q and E and W
i didnt see anyone banning shyvana are you saying they are making a mistake now by banning her or she was a hidden op
On July 11 2015 03:47 Slayer91 wrote: the amount of games where you actually stacked higher than that 65 stacks is probably like <10% of games and even then you still have to make up the phantom damage from Q and E and W
i didnt see anyone banning shyvana are you saying they are making a mistake now by banning her or she was a hidden op
i'm saying she was massively undervalued. 65 stacks is around the 30? minute mark if you played her right. i averaged 100+ before the patch
On July 11 2015 03:45 Slusher wrote: Reaching sated on a laner is kinda problematic, especially when you have a devour jungler as well
I can't imagine trying to build Devourer with a jungler who also has it. Unless both parties can get stacks from Baron/Dragon at the same time that just sounds awful.
Even without that it seems hard to pull off and highly punishable. If the enemy team controls dragon you're stuck with a worse version of Wit's End for most of the game.
On July 11 2015 03:47 Slayer91 wrote: the amount of games where you actually stacked higher than that 65 stacks is probably like <10% of games and even then you still have to make up the phantom damage from Q and E and W
i didnt see anyone banning shyvana are you saying they are making a mistake now by banning her or she was a hidden op
i'm saying she was massively undervalued. 65 stacks is around the 30? minute mark if you played her right. i averaged 100+ before the patch
I think you're undervaluing the Sated transformation. By hitting 29, you have the effect of 34 of before. The moment you hit Sated and get the double on hit effect, two autos average out to the effect of ~53 stacks instantly. That's a massive spike and ignores doubleing Wits', Nashor's,, BotRK, or whatever other shenanigans you have going on though champion kit.
On July 11 2015 03:47 Slayer91 wrote: the amount of games where you actually stacked higher than that 65 stacks is probably like <10% of games and even then you still have to make up the phantom damage from Q and E and W
i didnt see anyone banning shyvana are you saying they are making a mistake now by banning her or she was a hidden op
i'm saying she was massively undervalued. 65 stacks is around the 30? minute mark if you played her right. i averaged 100+ before the patch
I think you're undervaluing the Sated transformation. By hitting 29, you have the effect of 34 of before. The moment you hit Sated and get the double on hit effect, two autos average out to the effect of ~53 stacks instantly. That's a massive spike and ignores doubleing Wits', Nashor's,, BotRK, or whatever other shenanigans you have going on though champion kit.
the window for it to be better is really small though it's like 10 minutes on shyv because she farms so fast.
it's noticeably less good as soon as your start building tank items because your damage is capped now. if you are fed to all hell and back then you want tforce instead of wits end or nashors or whatever on shyv. i can understand on kayle who actually benefits from tons of on hit items but shyv isn't the same.
On July 11 2015 04:58 Frolossus wrote: the window for it to be better is really small though it's like 10 minutes on shyv because she farms so fast.
Nope!
On July 10 2015 11:47 TheHumanSensation wrote: Well, it's flat-out better right at the start (+5 on-hit), and it stacks faster than it did before, so you must mean post-sated devourer.
You get 3 Sated hits (180 on hit) for every 2 old-devourer hits, so you'd need 90 on-hit (65 stacks) to break even, assuming you have no other on-hits.
It definitely takes more than 10 minutes to hit 65 stacks of old devourer from the moment you purchased it. 30 minute mark (as you say) doesn't seem too unreasonable, but I did forget about the W and E damage. W is 20 on-hit, and E is 2.5% max HP (say 37.5 on-hit, vs a target with 1500 max HP).
With just +W you need to hit 100 on-hit (75 stacks). Against a target with 1500HP and your E on them, you need 118.75 on-hit (94 stacks) to break even.
So with about 100 stacks by them end of the game, you actually barely catch-up.
Unsure of how dragon form Q interacts with this, though.
Probably I missed something, but sometimes on the new Devourer I seem to loose a lot of Attack speed and instead of a purple wolf a brown one is there. After this one kindahow dies I get the Attack speed back, Is there some hidden feature I didn't get?
On July 11 2015 03:47 Slayer91 wrote: the amount of games where you actually stacked higher than that 65 stacks is probably like <10% of games and even then you still have to make up the phantom damage from Q and E and W
i didnt see anyone banning shyvana are you saying they are making a mistake now by banning her or she was a hidden op
i'm saying she was massively undervalued. 65 stacks is around the 30? minute mark if you played her right. i averaged 100+ before the patch
I think you're undervaluing the Sated transformation. By hitting 29, you have the effect of 34 of before. The moment you hit Sated and get the double on hit effect, two autos average out to the effect of ~53 stacks instantly. That's a massive spike and ignores doubleing Wits', Nashor's,, BotRK, or whatever other shenanigans you have going on though champion kit.
the window for it to be better is really small though it's like 10 minutes on shyv because she farms so fast.
it's noticeably less good as soon as your start building tank items because your damage is capped now. if you are fed to all hell and back then you want tforce instead of wits end or nashors or whatever on shyv. i can understand on kayle who actually benefits from tons of on hit items but shyv isn't the same.
It's actually not that small of a window, New Devourer is stronger from the moment it's built, stacks faster, and stays competitive long after it becomes Sated.
Consider the following math. Two attacks (three on-hits) from a Sated Devourer is 180 damage plus 60 (three Burnout on-hits) plus 7.5% of your target's maximum Health. Using the lowest Health in the game (1645 for level 18 Gnar), that's 363 damage total. Old Devourer requires 95 stacks for its two attacks to match.
Gathering the extra 65 stacks to hit 95 isn't trivial. That's roughly 13 jungle clears, taking 21.6 minutes at a mathematical minimum. During that time there will likely be three to four dragon fights, several tower sieges, and a baron or two wherein New Devourer is greater than or equal to Old Devourer. That's not a small window.
Eventually Old Devourer will surpass New Devourer if your game drags on, but practically speaking that's going to be irrelevant in 90% of solo queue games, and in most of the remaining 10% the slight advantage of Old Devourer late wouldn't have mattered.
On July 10 2015 11:47 TheHumanSensation wrote: Well, it's flat-out better right at the start (+5 on-hit), and it stacks faster than it did before, so you must mean post-sated devourer.
You get 3 Sated hits (180 on hit) for every 2 old-devourer hits, so you'd need 90 on-hit (65 stacks) to break even, assuming you have no other on-hits.
It definitely takes more than 10 minutes to hit 65 stacks of old devourer from the moment you purchased it. 30 minute mark (as you say) doesn't seem too unreasonable, but I did forget about the W and E damage. W is 20 on-hit, and E is 2.5% max HP (say 37.5 on-hit, vs a target with 1500 max HP).
With just +W you need to hit 100 on-hit (75 stacks). Against a target with 1500HP and your E on them, you need 118.75 on-hit (94 stacks) to break even.
So with about 100 stacks by them end of the game, you actually barely catch-up.
Unsure of how dragon form Q interacts with this, though.
so it's only better through midgame and worse at extended fights due to losing tons of bonus damage when her spells are on cooldown? shyv was probably good enough to justify her doing less damage but some of the other junglers like nocturne, skarner, reksai and maybe phoenix udyr are probably in the same boat or worse off.
the item seems to be a lot better obviously for champions that are building more than just botrk + devourer for on hits. if you are playing from behind against another devourer character i think this item is too forgiving.
On July 11 2015 05:56 EdwinVanDota wrote: Probably I missed something, but sometimes on the new Devourer I seem to loose a lot of Attack speed and instead of a purple wolf a brown one is there. After this one kindahow dies I get the Attack speed back, Is there some hidden feature I didn't get?
it might be a bug, i think i read something yesterday about devourer dropping attack speed but i can't find it atm.
On July 11 2015 03:47 Slayer91 wrote: the amount of games where you actually stacked higher than that 65 stacks is probably like <10% of games and even then you still have to make up the phantom damage from Q and E and W
i didnt see anyone banning shyvana are you saying they are making a mistake now by banning her or she was a hidden op
i'm saying she was massively undervalued. 65 stacks is around the 30? minute mark if you played her right. i averaged 100+ before the patch
I think you're undervaluing the Sated transformation. By hitting 29, you have the effect of 34 of before. The moment you hit Sated and get the double on hit effect, two autos average out to the effect of ~53 stacks instantly. That's a massive spike and ignores doubleing Wits', Nashor's,, BotRK, or whatever other shenanigans you have going on though champion kit.
the window for it to be better is really small though it's like 10 minutes on shyv because she farms so fast.
it's noticeably less good as soon as your start building tank items because your damage is capped now. if you are fed to all hell and back then you want tforce instead of wits end or nashors or whatever on shyv. i can understand on kayle who actually benefits from tons of on hit items but shyv isn't the same.
It's actually not that small of a window, New Devourer is stronger from the moment it's built, stacks faster, and stays competitive long after it becomes Sated.
Consider the following math. Two attacks (three on-hits) from a Sated Devourer is 180 damage plus 60 (three Burnout on-hits) plus 7.5% of your target's maximum Health. Using the lowest Health in the game (1645 for level 18 Gnar), that's 363 damage total. Old Devourer requires 95 stacks for its two attacks to match.
Gathering the extra 65 stacks to hit 95 isn't trivial. That's roughly 13 jungle clears, taking 21.6 minutes at a mathematical minimum. During that time there will likely be three to four dragon fights, several tower sieges, and a baron or two wherein New Devourer is greater than or equal to Old Devourer. That's not a small window.
Eventually Old Devourer will surpass New Devourer if your game drags on, but practically speaking that's going to be irrelevant in 90% of solo queue games, and in most of the remaining 10% the slight advantage of Old Devourer late wouldn't have mattered.
it should be a lot closer to 10-15 minutes because kills and assists gave you 2 stacks and you'd be constantly clearing out enemy camps as well as your own. the window is definitely on the smaller side
On July 11 2015 05:08 Caiada wrote: I'd take Hydra over Tforce 99 times out of 100, especially with Sated.
why hydra? i don't think sated devourer benefits from the lifesteal very much on the phantom hit and the aoe damage is less useful than triforce Qs
Double-hitting with 22% lifesteal is a lot of sustain. The biggest things are Burnout's AD ratio and the cost though. 400 less cost for more damage, especially more teamfight damage, and much better splitting. You're basically only losing some health and a very minor amount of single-target burst. Buy a health crystal with that 400 gold and you're much better off.
Though, I'd still recommend full tank after BotRK. Get a Mallet with the gold instead. But if I wanted to win skirmishes single-handedly and laugh at any single person they sent after me, that's what I'd do.
Shyv has 3 different onhits once she has BotRK. And they reduce Q CD. That is an *insane* amount of utility out of new Devourer. She's got a 50% plus uptime on W/E as well.
On July 11 2015 06:21 cLutZ wrote: Just laned against a Smite Vayne. She got that devourer in the end! However, our Lucian was already 6/0/1 and my Janna was 1/1/6.
This patch is the worst for people taking smite when they shouldn't... 4smites pls no.
On July 11 2015 03:47 Slayer91 wrote: the amount of games where you actually stacked higher than that 65 stacks is probably like <10% of games and even then you still have to make up the phantom damage from Q and E and W
i didnt see anyone banning shyvana are you saying they are making a mistake now by banning her or she was a hidden op
i'm saying she was massively undervalued. 65 stacks is around the 30? minute mark if you played her right. i averaged 100+ before the patch
I think you're undervaluing the Sated transformation. By hitting 29, you have the effect of 34 of before. The moment you hit Sated and get the double on hit effect, two autos average out to the effect of ~53 stacks instantly. That's a massive spike and ignores doubleing Wits', Nashor's,, BotRK, or whatever other shenanigans you have going on though champion kit.
the window for it to be better is really small though it's like 10 minutes on shyv because she farms so fast.
it's noticeably less good as soon as your start building tank items because your damage is capped now. if you are fed to all hell and back then you want tforce instead of wits end or nashors or whatever on shyv. i can understand on kayle who actually benefits from tons of on hit items but shyv isn't the same.
It's actually not that small of a window, New Devourer is stronger from the moment it's built, stacks faster, and stays competitive long after it becomes Sated.
Consider the following math. Two attacks (three on-hits) from a Sated Devourer is 180 damage plus 60 (three Burnout on-hits) plus 7.5% of your target's maximum Health. Using the lowest Health in the game (1645 for level 18 Gnar), that's 363 damage total. Old Devourer requires 95 stacks for its two attacks to match.
Gathering the extra 65 stacks to hit 95 isn't trivial. That's roughly 13 jungle clears, taking 21.6 minutes at a mathematical minimum. During that time there will likely be three to four dragon fights, several tower sieges, and a baron or two wherein New Devourer is greater than or equal to Old Devourer. That's not a small window.
Eventually Old Devourer will surpass New Devourer if your game drags on, but practically speaking that's going to be irrelevant in 90% of solo queue games, and in most of the remaining 10% the slight advantage of Old Devourer late wouldn't have mattered.
it should be a lot closer to 10-15 minutes because kills and assists gave you 2 stacks and you'd be constantly clearing out enemy camps as well as your own. the window is definitely on the smaller side
Do you have or know of any VODs of Jungle Shyvana with Old Devourer? I'd like to try to actually measure this if at all possible, because while I have some strong reservations about your claims I'm not one to dismiss them outright.
I'm just going sated into 3 tank items, dunno how you guys can afford any damage after sated on a melee champ with no range or cc or burst damage or gapclosers lol mallet/botrk/trinity are all good id only ever go hydra if its like orianna and they have to clump up o something
22% lifesteal is nothing probably 40 hp or something when you have 4k and are getting crit for 400 a second by adc
On July 11 2015 03:47 Slayer91 wrote: the amount of games where you actually stacked higher than that 65 stacks is probably like <10% of games and even then you still have to make up the phantom damage from Q and E and W
i didnt see anyone banning shyvana are you saying they are making a mistake now by banning her or she was a hidden op
i'm saying she was massively undervalued. 65 stacks is around the 30? minute mark if you played her right. i averaged 100+ before the patch
I think you're undervaluing the Sated transformation. By hitting 29, you have the effect of 34 of before. The moment you hit Sated and get the double on hit effect, two autos average out to the effect of ~53 stacks instantly. That's a massive spike and ignores doubleing Wits', Nashor's,, BotRK, or whatever other shenanigans you have going on though champion kit.
the window for it to be better is really small though it's like 10 minutes on shyv because she farms so fast.
it's noticeably less good as soon as your start building tank items because your damage is capped now. if you are fed to all hell and back then you want tforce instead of wits end or nashors or whatever on shyv. i can understand on kayle who actually benefits from tons of on hit items but shyv isn't the same.
It's actually not that small of a window, New Devourer is stronger from the moment it's built, stacks faster, and stays competitive long after it becomes Sated.
Consider the following math. Two attacks (three on-hits) from a Sated Devourer is 180 damage plus 60 (three Burnout on-hits) plus 7.5% of your target's maximum Health. Using the lowest Health in the game (1645 for level 18 Gnar), that's 363 damage total. Old Devourer requires 95 stacks for its two attacks to match.
Gathering the extra 65 stacks to hit 95 isn't trivial. That's roughly 13 jungle clears, taking 21.6 minutes at a mathematical minimum. During that time there will likely be three to four dragon fights, several tower sieges, and a baron or two wherein New Devourer is greater than or equal to Old Devourer. That's not a small window.
Eventually Old Devourer will surpass New Devourer if your game drags on, but practically speaking that's going to be irrelevant in 90% of solo queue games, and in most of the remaining 10% the slight advantage of Old Devourer late wouldn't have mattered.
it should be a lot closer to 10-15 minutes because kills and assists gave you 2 stacks and you'd be constantly clearing out enemy camps as well as your own. the window is definitely on the smaller side
Do you have or know of any VODs of Jungle Shyvana with Old Devourer? I'd like to try to actually measure this if at all possible, because while I have some strong reservations about your claims I'm not one to dismiss them outright.
is the only thing i can immediately find. 67 stacks @ 30 minutes
i'd love it if stacks showed in old match history but unfortunately they don't so i can't pull anything out of my own matches.
a full jungle clear after shyv has botrk + devourer is something like 45-50 seconds. so you have from then until the next respawn to take enemy camps or gank and stack even faster
On July 11 2015 06:36 Slayer91 wrote: I'm just going sated into 3 tank items, dunno how you guys can afford any damage after sated on a melee champ with no range or cc or burst damage or gapclosers lol mallet/botrk/trinity are all good id only ever go hydra if its like orianna and they have to clump up o something
22% lifesteal is nothing probably 40 hp or something when you have 4k and are getting crit for 400 a second by adc
the idea is that she gets a bunch of free resistances and armor in dragon form, has an amazing chase potential. randuins + 1 other tank item is usually sufficient. by the end of the game your goal isn't usually to live longer but to kill their carries faster.
On July 11 2015 04:58 Frolossus wrote: the window for it to be better is really small though it's like 10 minutes on shyv because she farms so fast.
Nope!
On July 10 2015 11:47 TheHumanSensation wrote: Well, it's flat-out better right at the start (+5 on-hit), and it stacks faster than it did before, so you must mean post-sated devourer.
You get 3 Sated hits (180 on hit) for every 2 old-devourer hits, so you'd need 90 on-hit (65 stacks) to break even, assuming you have no other on-hits.
It definitely takes more than 10 minutes to hit 65 stacks of old devourer from the moment you purchased it. 30 minute mark (as you say) doesn't seem too unreasonable, but I did forget about the W and E damage. W is 20 on-hit, and E is 2.5% max HP (say 37.5 on-hit, vs a target with 1500 max HP).
With just +W you need to hit 100 on-hit (75 stacks). Against a target with 1500HP and your E on them, you need 118.75 on-hit (94 stacks) to break even.
So with about 100 stacks by them end of the game, you actually barely catch-up.
Unsure of how dragon form Q interacts with this, though.
so it's only better through midgame and worse at extended fights due to losing tons of bonus damage when her spells are on cooldown?
It's better earlygame as well (depending on how quickly you can get it in the first place, this may stretch the definition of earlygame). But as Gahlo said you're missing the size of the powerspike.
For this catch-up period, new devourer is always better and peaks at being like way way better right at the sated transformation via auto-attacks alone (180 vs 110 over 2 punches). This is +70 relatively, and another +50 or so with W and E up, making it more than twice as good at this point. Lategame old devourer is not twice as good as new devourer until way too late. Even when W and E are down, you need 180 on-hit (155 stacks) to double the new devourer, for comparison.
Regarding W and E uptime, let's take your average of 100 stacks with old devourer. Devourer on-hit: 60x3 (180) vs 125x2 (250) :: old wins by 70 per 3 attacks W on-hit: 20 E on-hit: 41.125 or higher (monte's numbers) Total with stuff up: 363.375 vs 372.25 :: old wins by ~9 per 3 attacks So with estimated 50% uptime on W and E old devourer comes up to an average of being ahead by ~40 damage per 3 autos lategame. This powerspike is much smaller but still kind of significant I guess?
I'm also in testing on how devourer works with dragon Q
is the only thing i can immediately find. 67 stacks @ 30 minutes
a full jungle clear after shyv has botrk + devourer is something like 45-50 seconds. so you have from then until the next respawn to take enemy camps or gank and stack even faster
I'll do a more thorough analysis later, but at a glance she finished Devourer and reentered the jungle at 7:30, meaning it took her 22.5 minutes after completing the item to farm those 67 stacks. That's in line with the timeframe I was suggesting before.
is the only thing i can immediately find. 67 stacks @ 30 minutes
a full jungle clear after shyv has botrk + devourer is something like 45-50 seconds. so you have from then until the next respawn to take enemy camps or gank and stack even faster
I'll do a more thorough analysis later, but at a glance she finished Devourer and reentered the jungle at 7:30, meaning it took her 22.5 minutes after completing the item to farm those 67 stacks. That's in line with the timeframe I was suggesting before.
sated devourer finishes currently at around 20 minutes that's a 10 minute difference.
you are counting from when devourer is finished not the difference between 30 and 67
not sure what game you guys are playing that 20 free resists is enough and also shyvana "amazing chase potential" probably the worst chasing melee ive ever played no slows and a just a short speed up that relies on melee range to last more than a few seconds and a jukeable ult
I've analyzed Frolossus video and I'll keep it short.
While Shyvana had a lot of assists and kills, I think that only slightly accelerated Devourer's stacking. based on that game I think it's fair to say that past 30-35 minutes Old Devourer is better than New Devourer (factoring in W and E uptime).
However, New Devourer will tend to hit Sated roughly 15 minutes before that point, and is stronger than Old Devourer before then, so you have a fairly significant window (20-25 minutes) where New Devourer is stronger. New Devourer is also more bursty, which isn't something we can adequately measure and compare without going into excruciating detail.
All in all there's meat to Frolossus' complaint and I'm sympathetic as they've effectively changed how he has to play her.
On July 11 2015 07:43 Slayer91 wrote: not sure what game you guys are playing that 20 free resists is enough and also shyvana "amazing chase potential" probably the worst chasing melee ive ever played no slows and a just a short speed up that relies on melee range to last more than a few seconds and a jukeable ult
Who the fuck is going damage Shyv without being fed? In which case going bruiser is 9/10 times the better buy off efficiency alone.
On July 11 2015 08:21 iCanada wrote: Honestly, as someone who plays Shyvana a lot and has since she was released...
I think Cinderhulk is better than Devourer.
Depends 100% on comp. Also, if you're toplane, don't build Devourer. But that should be obvious. I also don't think you should pick jungle Shyv in just about any situation where you're forced to go full tank, because there are like 10 jungle champs that do that job but with actual threat and CC.
On July 11 2015 08:26 Seuss wrote: I've analyzed Frolossus video and I'll keep it short.
While Shyvana had a lot of assists and kills, I think that only slightly accelerated Devourer's stacking. based on that game I think it's fair to say that past 30-35 minutes Old Devourer is better than New Devourer (factoring in W and E uptime).
However, New Devourer will tend to hit Sated roughly 15 minutes before that point, and is stronger than Old Devourer before then, so you have a fairly significant window (20-25 minutes) where New Devourer is stronger. New Devourer is also more bursty, which isn't something we can adequately measure and compare without going into excruciating detail.
All in all there's meat to Frolossus' complaint and I'm sympathetic as they've effectively changed how he has to play her.
i think it is more concerning for characters that itemize and play similarly but weren't already shyvana tier. i'll continue to play the same exact way as before it's just less optimal now.
On July 11 2015 07:43 Slayer91 wrote: not sure what game you guys are playing that 20 free resists is enough and also shyvana "amazing chase potential" probably the worst chasing melee ive ever played no slows and a just a short speed up that relies on melee range to last more than a few seconds and a jukeable ult
you run MS quints, blue smite, exhaust, randuins, bork and whore red buff. people don't escape and you 3 hit squishies
On July 11 2015 08:26 Seuss wrote: I've analyzed Frolossus video and I'll keep it short.
While Shyvana had a lot of assists and kills, I think that only slightly accelerated Devourer's stacking. based on that game I think it's fair to say that past 30-35 minutes Old Devourer is better than New Devourer (factoring in W and E uptime).
However, New Devourer will tend to hit Sated roughly 15 minutes before that point, and is stronger than Old Devourer before then, so you have a fairly significant window (20-25 minutes) where New Devourer is stronger. New Devourer is also more bursty, which isn't something we can adequately measure and compare without going into excruciating detail.
All in all there's meat to Frolossus' complaint and I'm sympathetic as they've effectively changed how he has to play her.
I'd also argue that a huge nerf in general, seeing how Shyvana falls off a cliff after 30 minutes or so as it is; she goes from being a duelist god who is forcing objectives or small skirmishes which she wins which lead to Objectives, to like... a useless tank with little threat because she has no CC and can't really team fight.
If you dont give your teams big leads on Shyvana before everyone is starting to hit 4 items or so you are probably going to lose. Ideally you win the game before then, lol.
i think she is strongest as a late game carry type of character similar but better than a jax or irelia. she comfortable 1v3s or better at the end of the game.
On July 11 2015 08:26 Seuss wrote: I've analyzed Frolossus video and I'll keep it short.
While Shyvana had a lot of assists and kills, I think that only slightly accelerated Devourer's stacking. based on that game I think it's fair to say that past 30-35 minutes Old Devourer is better than New Devourer (factoring in W and E uptime).
However, New Devourer will tend to hit Sated roughly 15 minutes before that point, and is stronger than Old Devourer before then, so you have a fairly significant window (20-25 minutes) where New Devourer is stronger. New Devourer is also more bursty, which isn't something we can adequately measure and compare without going into excruciating detail.
All in all there's meat to Frolossus' complaint and I'm sympathetic as they've effectively changed how he has to play her.
I'd also argue that a huge nerf in general, seeing how Shyvana falls off a cliff after 30 minutes or so as it is; she goes from being a duelist god who is forcing objectives or small skirmishes which she wins which lead to Objectives, to like... a useless tank with little threat because she has no CC and can't really team fight.
If you dont give your teams big leads on Shyvana before everyone is starting to hit 4 items or so you are probably going to lose. Ideally you win the game before then, lol.
On July 11 2015 07:43 Slayer91 wrote: not sure what game you guys are playing that 20 free resists is enough and also shyvana "amazing chase potential" probably the worst chasing melee ive ever played no slows and a just a short speed up that relies on melee range to last more than a few seconds and a jukeable ult
Who the fuck is going damage Shyv without being fed? In which case going bruiser is 9/10 times the better buy off efficiency alone.
On July 11 2015 08:21 iCanada wrote: Honestly, as someone who plays Shyvana a lot and has since she was released...
I think Cinderhulk is better than Devourer.
Depends 100% on comp. Also, if you're toplane, don't build Devourer. But that should be obvious. I also don't think you should pick jungle Shyv in just about any situation where you're forced to go full tank, because there are like 10 jungle champs that do that job but with actual threat and CC.
I wouldn't reccomend full tank Shy either. i think you want a BotRK. I just think you can gank better with Cinderhulk, and your farming game is the same. You aren't going to just kill anyone in the middle of their lane, you're going to need to take a tower shot or 2. Just is what it is. (Speaking of which, Shyvana+Raka dives are ridiculous.)
If you are picking Jungle Shy for Teamfight threat, imo you are doing it wrong regardless. She is a skirmisher; Iv1, 1v2, 2v2, 2v3 etc she is pretty strong, but in 5v5 she is just underwhelming imo. Midgame she is one of the tankiest champions in the game and is also a huge damage threat regardless how many items she has. But that falls of for sure.
it's worth noting that she is one of the most controlling junglers in the game and very good at strangling the enemy jungler out of farm. it is not uncommon to be 2-3 levels above gank oriented or tank junglers. basically anyone who isn't also a devourer jungler. she clears camps stupidly quickly and can duel almost everyone from 12-15 minutes to the end of the game. i think she is one of the strongest counter junglers right now.
Just tried the new devourer on Kayle mid and wow I was doing so much damage, comparable to prenerf Kayle. Proccing devourer + nashors + runaans every other attack is sooo broken
Wait, do you mean that Runaan's bolts is considered an on-hit effect? It triggers on-hit effects too though. So do the on-hits on the bolts get doubled too, or you just get them twice because the bolts themselves are triggered twice?
Runnans bolts are considered on-attack. But the bolts themselves apply on-hit effects(as is their bonus damage an on-hit effect). Devourer is an on-attack effect and so the on-hit portions of ruunans should apply twice on the devourerrs attack
So you don't get double bolts but you do get double the on-hit
Brings out the worst players. I dont care if you want to hard farm, but dont be that guy that taxes a wave from all your lanes every other wave. Like jesus.
On July 11 2015 12:19 iCanada wrote: I hate these stacking juingle items.
Brings out the worst players. I dont care if you want to hard farm, but dont be that guy that taxes a wave from all your lanes every other wave. Like jesus.
Learn to just embrace hating all jungle items. What good have they ever done? Given us 3 straight seasons of tiny jungle champion pools? Turned lanes into a shitshow whenever they are decent?
On July 11 2015 13:58 Sufficiency wrote: I haven't tried Tahm jungle yet, but I am pretty sure he can't lane or support at this point.
I think Tahm Jungle will be must pick ban in pro play.
In Soloqueue, I've had some success, but he suffers from a terrible terrible first clear. Until he has QWE he just gets torn apart in the jungle... like honestly probably the worst first clear in the game. This kind of doesn't matter when you double jangling.
And then you get the E healing going, and the W stopping a minion from attacking you for like 10 seconds, and he goes from the worst clear to like the best in the game as far as a tank is concerned. His early ganks are.... mediocre. Same as Sej. But once he hits 6, look out. Its like Nocturne with Instant Slow CC, no warning, a stun... And thats if he shows up alone. Not to mention, honestly, I think he is the best diving jungle ganker in the game, no matter which cham,p takes aggro first.
On July 11 2015 13:58 Sufficiency wrote: I haven't tried Tahm jungle yet, but I am pretty sure he can't lane or support at this point.
I think Tahm Jungle will be must pick ban in pro play.
In Soloqueue, I've had some success, but he suffers from a terrible terrible first clear. Until he has QWE he just gets torn apart in the jungle... like honestly probably the worst first clear in the game. This kind of doesn't matter when you double jangling.
And then you get the E healing going, and the W stopping a minion from attacking you for like 10 seconds, and he goes from the worst clear to like the best in the game as far as a tank is concerned. His early ganks are.... mediocre. Same as Sej. But once he hits 6, look out. Its like Nocturne with Instant Slow CC, no warning, a stun... And thats if he shows up alone. Not to mention, honestly, I think he is the best diving jungle ganker in the game, no matter which cham,p takes aggro first.
AND he hits like a damn truck.
I suspect this much as well. I'll willing to give it a shot next time.
On July 11 2015 15:02 Nos- wrote: Tahm kench's shield is straight hilarious
Right?
Only thing I dont like about him is his lack of gap closers.
With gold on this guy you deal nearly 200 Magic Damage on hit, and in fights you can just straight tank nearly 12k damage.
He also gives very few fucks about taking AP ez shots to the face. Heals like 44%*1.2 = 53%of it right back, then you consider that he's tanky as fuck and has a solid 5k HP at least, and he is like the ultimate anti AP Ez Jungler, assuming your teammates can hide behind you.
I'm not sure if you can build anything but like straight tank on him without being troll... Which is kind of a shame because I am finding I am getting a lot of gold on him from the jungle. I'd equate his jungling to gragas, to be honest. Scary scary jungler. Maybe like Wits End? Zephyr? Statikk Shiv? I guess he wouldn't hate Trinity force? I dunno. I feel likle increasing your AS would be huge offensively, but all the items I feel like he wastes a lot of the stats... Crit useless on him, same with AD / AP. I would like Wits but it is just so... bad. So cost inefficient.
Black cleaver would be nice, but all his damage is magical.
I have decided RG sucks on him though, pointless when you can just use your ult for the same thing.
On July 11 2015 15:02 Nos- wrote: Tahm kench's shield is straight hilarious
Right?
Only thing I dont like about him is his lack of gap closers.
With gold on this guy you deal nearly 200 Magic Damage on hit, and in fights you can just straight tank nearly 12k damage.
He also gives very few fucks about taking AP ez shots to the face. Heals like 44%*1.2 = 53%of it right back, then you consider that he's tanky as fuck and has a solid 5k HP at least, and he is like the ultimate anti AP Ez Jungler, assuming your teammates can hide behind you.
I'm not sure if you can build anything but like straight tank on him without being troll... Which is kind of a shame because I am finding I am getting a lot of gold on him from the jungle. I'd equate his jungling to gragas, to be honest. Scary scary jungler. Maybe like Wits End? Zephyr? Statikk Shiv? I guess he wouldn't hate Trinity force? I dunno. I feel likle increasing your AS would be huge offensively, but all the items I feel like he wastes a lot of the stats... Crit useless on him, same with AD / AP. I would like Wits but it is just so... bad. So cost inefficient.
Black cleaver would be nice, but all his damage is magical.
I have decided RG sucks on him though, pointless when you can just use your ult for the same thing.
I know he's not a burst mage with sick ratios, but is Nashor's too crazy? Probably a dumb question, but how does Liandry's/Rylai's interact with his basic attacks after 6?
So am I just supposed to indiscriminately invade and take their camps in 3 seconds and light up their jungle? Maybe I'm trying too hard to gank when I might be better served just counter jungling them?
On July 11 2015 08:26 Seuss wrote: I've analyzed Frolossus video and I'll keep it short.
While Shyvana had a lot of assists and kills, I think that only slightly accelerated Devourer's stacking. based on that game I think it's fair to say that past 30-35 minutes Old Devourer is better than New Devourer (factoring in W and E uptime).
However, New Devourer will tend to hit Sated roughly 15 minutes before that point, and is stronger than Old Devourer before then, so you have a fairly significant window (20-25 minutes) where New Devourer is stronger. New Devourer is also more bursty, which isn't something we can adequately measure and compare without going into excruciating detail.
All in all there's meat to Frolossus' complaint and I'm sympathetic as they've effectively changed how he has to play her.
i think it is more concerning for characters that itemize and play similarly but weren't already shyvana tier. i'll continue to play the same exact way as before it's just less optimal now.
On July 11 2015 07:43 Slayer91 wrote: not sure what game you guys are playing that 20 free resists is enough and also shyvana "amazing chase potential" probably the worst chasing melee ive ever played no slows and a just a short speed up that relies on melee range to last more than a few seconds and a jukeable ult
you run MS quints, blue smite, exhaust, randuins, bork and whore red buff. people don't escape and you 3 hit squishies
On July 11 2015 08:26 Seuss wrote: I've analyzed Frolossus video and I'll keep it short.
While Shyvana had a lot of assists and kills, I think that only slightly accelerated Devourer's stacking. based on that game I think it's fair to say that past 30-35 minutes Old Devourer is better than New Devourer (factoring in W and E uptime).
However, New Devourer will tend to hit Sated roughly 15 minutes before that point, and is stronger than Old Devourer before then, so you have a fairly significant window (20-25 minutes) where New Devourer is stronger. New Devourer is also more bursty, which isn't something we can adequately measure and compare without going into excruciating detail.
All in all there's meat to Frolossus' complaint and I'm sympathetic as they've effectively changed how he has to play her.
I'd also argue that a huge nerf in general, seeing how Shyvana falls off a cliff after 30 minutes or so as it is; she goes from being a duelist god who is forcing objectives or small skirmishes which she wins which lead to Objectives, to like... a useless tank with little threat because she has no CC and can't really team fight.
If you dont give your teams big leads on Shyvana before everyone is starting to hit 4 items or so you are probably going to lose. Ideally you win the game before then, lol.
i think she is strongest as a late game carry type of character similar but better than a jax or irelia. she comfortable 1v3s or better at the end of the game.
none of these things make you a good chase champion what you're describing is the worst chase champ in the game building items exclusively to cover that weakness im going all that stuff (except ms quints) and still find it difficult assuming their team has any cc not that i think shyv is weak I just think you're vastly overrating the champion's lategame. like many melees she can 1v3 lategame with a gold lead vs an underfarmed team but in more typical games strong damage with some annoying cc like thresh or naut or something makes life difficult for you
I find shyvana lackluster in general. She has been in a ton of my games lately probably because her winrate on champion.gg was very high last patch.
In all of those games she either didnt do anything early on and has zero impact or got extremely fed and still had zero impact. The champion has zero ways to stick to a target and a measly blue smite/bork slow wont help you in a team fight setting.
She's pretty much relegated to splitpushing and even on those she cant dive people under turret (except if her opponents are braindead).
She can be a good pick in some situations, but its not a great blindpick
On July 11 2015 08:26 Seuss wrote: I've analyzed Frolossus video and I'll keep it short.
While Shyvana had a lot of assists and kills, I think that only slightly accelerated Devourer's stacking. based on that game I think it's fair to say that past 30-35 minutes Old Devourer is better than New Devourer (factoring in W and E uptime).
However, New Devourer will tend to hit Sated roughly 15 minutes before that point, and is stronger than Old Devourer before then, so you have a fairly significant window (20-25 minutes) where New Devourer is stronger. New Devourer is also more bursty, which isn't something we can adequately measure and compare without going into excruciating detail.
All in all there's meat to Frolossus' complaint and I'm sympathetic as they've effectively changed how he has to play her.
i think it is more concerning for characters that itemize and play similarly but weren't already shyvana tier. i'll continue to play the same exact way as before it's just less optimal now.
On July 11 2015 07:43 Slayer91 wrote: not sure what game you guys are playing that 20 free resists is enough and also shyvana "amazing chase potential" probably the worst chasing melee ive ever played no slows and a just a short speed up that relies on melee range to last more than a few seconds and a jukeable ult
you run MS quints, blue smite, exhaust, randuins, bork and whore red buff. people don't escape and you 3 hit squishies
On July 11 2015 08:41 iCanada wrote:
On July 11 2015 08:26 Seuss wrote: I've analyzed Frolossus video and I'll keep it short.
While Shyvana had a lot of assists and kills, I think that only slightly accelerated Devourer's stacking. based on that game I think it's fair to say that past 30-35 minutes Old Devourer is better than New Devourer (factoring in W and E uptime).
However, New Devourer will tend to hit Sated roughly 15 minutes before that point, and is stronger than Old Devourer before then, so you have a fairly significant window (20-25 minutes) where New Devourer is stronger. New Devourer is also more bursty, which isn't something we can adequately measure and compare without going into excruciating detail.
All in all there's meat to Frolossus' complaint and I'm sympathetic as they've effectively changed how he has to play her.
I'd also argue that a huge nerf in general, seeing how Shyvana falls off a cliff after 30 minutes or so as it is; she goes from being a duelist god who is forcing objectives or small skirmishes which she wins which lead to Objectives, to like... a useless tank with little threat because she has no CC and can't really team fight.
If you dont give your teams big leads on Shyvana before everyone is starting to hit 4 items or so you are probably going to lose. Ideally you win the game before then, lol.
i think she is strongest as a late game carry type of character similar but better than a jax or irelia. she comfortable 1v3s or better at the end of the game.
none of these things make you a good chase champion what you're describing is the worst chase champ in the game building items exclusively to cover that weakness im going all that stuff (except ms quints) and still find it difficult assuming their team has any cc not that i think shyv is weak I just think you're vastly overrating the champion's lategame. like many melees she can 1v3 lategame with a gold lead vs an underfarmed team but in more typical games strong damage with some annoying cc like thresh or naut or something makes life difficult for you
having burnout makes you a bad chase champion? it's like yi but better in that regard because highlander has a long cool down
On July 11 2015 08:26 Seuss wrote: I've analyzed Frolossus video and I'll keep it short.
While Shyvana had a lot of assists and kills, I think that only slightly accelerated Devourer's stacking. based on that game I think it's fair to say that past 30-35 minutes Old Devourer is better than New Devourer (factoring in W and E uptime).
However, New Devourer will tend to hit Sated roughly 15 minutes before that point, and is stronger than Old Devourer before then, so you have a fairly significant window (20-25 minutes) where New Devourer is stronger. New Devourer is also more bursty, which isn't something we can adequately measure and compare without going into excruciating detail.
All in all there's meat to Frolossus' complaint and I'm sympathetic as they've effectively changed how he has to play her.
i think it is more concerning for characters that itemize and play similarly but weren't already shyvana tier. i'll continue to play the same exact way as before it's just less optimal now.
On July 11 2015 07:43 Slayer91 wrote: not sure what game you guys are playing that 20 free resists is enough and also shyvana "amazing chase potential" probably the worst chasing melee ive ever played no slows and a just a short speed up that relies on melee range to last more than a few seconds and a jukeable ult
you run MS quints, blue smite, exhaust, randuins, bork and whore red buff. people don't escape and you 3 hit squishies
On July 11 2015 08:41 iCanada wrote:
On July 11 2015 08:26 Seuss wrote: I've analyzed Frolossus video and I'll keep it short.
While Shyvana had a lot of assists and kills, I think that only slightly accelerated Devourer's stacking. based on that game I think it's fair to say that past 30-35 minutes Old Devourer is better than New Devourer (factoring in W and E uptime).
However, New Devourer will tend to hit Sated roughly 15 minutes before that point, and is stronger than Old Devourer before then, so you have a fairly significant window (20-25 minutes) where New Devourer is stronger. New Devourer is also more bursty, which isn't something we can adequately measure and compare without going into excruciating detail.
All in all there's meat to Frolossus' complaint and I'm sympathetic as they've effectively changed how he has to play her.
I'd also argue that a huge nerf in general, seeing how Shyvana falls off a cliff after 30 minutes or so as it is; she goes from being a duelist god who is forcing objectives or small skirmishes which she wins which lead to Objectives, to like... a useless tank with little threat because she has no CC and can't really team fight.
If you dont give your teams big leads on Shyvana before everyone is starting to hit 4 items or so you are probably going to lose. Ideally you win the game before then, lol.
i think she is strongest as a late game carry type of character similar but better than a jax or irelia. she comfortable 1v3s or better at the end of the game.
none of these things make you a good chase champion what you're describing is the worst chase champ in the game building items exclusively to cover that weakness im going all that stuff (except ms quints) and still find it difficult assuming their team has any cc not that i think shyv is weak I just think you're vastly overrating the champion's lategame. like many melees she can 1v3 lategame with a gold lead vs an underfarmed team but in more typical games strong damage with some annoying cc like thresh or naut or something makes life difficult for you
having burnout makes you a bad chase champion? it's like yi but better in that regard because highlander has a long cool down
Burnout doesn't protect Shyvana from AS slows like Highlander does,
im actually having more luck actually hitting the frontline than the backline. I shred tanks with the bork and e proc and as long as I am doing reasonably ok I will always outlast their tanks and win that way. I only hit backline if my ult gets me on top of them in which case peel isn't going to help.
On July 11 2015 08:26 Seuss wrote: I've analyzed Frolossus video and I'll keep it short.
While Shyvana had a lot of assists and kills, I think that only slightly accelerated Devourer's stacking. based on that game I think it's fair to say that past 30-35 minutes Old Devourer is better than New Devourer (factoring in W and E uptime).
However, New Devourer will tend to hit Sated roughly 15 minutes before that point, and is stronger than Old Devourer before then, so you have a fairly significant window (20-25 minutes) where New Devourer is stronger. New Devourer is also more bursty, which isn't something we can adequately measure and compare without going into excruciating detail.
All in all there's meat to Frolossus' complaint and I'm sympathetic as they've effectively changed how he has to play her.
i think it is more concerning for characters that itemize and play similarly but weren't already shyvana tier. i'll continue to play the same exact way as before it's just less optimal now.
On July 11 2015 07:43 Slayer91 wrote: not sure what game you guys are playing that 20 free resists is enough and also shyvana "amazing chase potential" probably the worst chasing melee ive ever played no slows and a just a short speed up that relies on melee range to last more than a few seconds and a jukeable ult
you run MS quints, blue smite, exhaust, randuins, bork and whore red buff. people don't escape and you 3 hit squishies
On July 11 2015 08:41 iCanada wrote:
On July 11 2015 08:26 Seuss wrote: I've analyzed Frolossus video and I'll keep it short.
While Shyvana had a lot of assists and kills, I think that only slightly accelerated Devourer's stacking. based on that game I think it's fair to say that past 30-35 minutes Old Devourer is better than New Devourer (factoring in W and E uptime).
However, New Devourer will tend to hit Sated roughly 15 minutes before that point, and is stronger than Old Devourer before then, so you have a fairly significant window (20-25 minutes) where New Devourer is stronger. New Devourer is also more bursty, which isn't something we can adequately measure and compare without going into excruciating detail.
All in all there's meat to Frolossus' complaint and I'm sympathetic as they've effectively changed how he has to play her.
I'd also argue that a huge nerf in general, seeing how Shyvana falls off a cliff after 30 minutes or so as it is; she goes from being a duelist god who is forcing objectives or small skirmishes which she wins which lead to Objectives, to like... a useless tank with little threat because she has no CC and can't really team fight.
If you dont give your teams big leads on Shyvana before everyone is starting to hit 4 items or so you are probably going to lose. Ideally you win the game before then, lol.
i think she is strongest as a late game carry type of character similar but better than a jax or irelia. she comfortable 1v3s or better at the end of the game.
none of these things make you a good chase champion what you're describing is the worst chase champ in the game building items exclusively to cover that weakness im going all that stuff (except ms quints) and still find it difficult assuming their team has any cc not that i think shyv is weak I just think you're vastly overrating the champion's lategame. like many melees she can 1v3 lategame with a gold lead vs an underfarmed team but in more typical games strong damage with some annoying cc like thresh or naut or something makes life difficult for you
having burnout makes you a bad chase champion? it's like yi but better in that regard because highlander has a long cool down
Burnout doesn't protect Shyvana from AS slows like Highlander does,
On July 11 2015 23:15 nafta wrote: black shield a lot scarier than a sivir ult tbh especially when the only person who could consider peeling is the support :D
On July 11 2015 23:15 nafta wrote: black shield a lot scarier than a sivir ult tbh especially when the only person who could consider peeling is the support :D
What in the name of holy hell are they doing to MF's boobs in the skin updates?
This is a god damn travesty. She's completely covered up. Even if she wasn't, it's obvious they reduced the size. More so than any other champion in the game, MF's boobs are core to her character identity.
On July 12 2015 00:33 Sonnington wrote: What in the name of holy hell are they doing to MF's boobs in the skin updates?
This is a god damn travesty. She's completely covered up. Even if she wasn't, it's obvious they reduced the size. More so than any other champion in the game, MF's boobs are core to her character identity.
i'm more concerned about the lack of candy cane guns
This patch is already pretty annoying. There's way too much bullshit/annoying stuff to ban, that you know you'll have to deal with several of these picks in every game.
lol you people on about the MF skin. The new one looks better, and these complaints are desperate to the absolute extreme. The people on the Reddit thread made me cringe unbelievably hard. Ditching league for a while makes you realize how fucking petty people are being about cosmetic differences.
I like the new WotA, shits fun to play with now. Spellvamp is now a thing on more champs. Anyone seen new WotA champs recently? Im thinking Syndra or Ori or sommat similar.
On July 12 2015 03:48 Alaric wrote: This patch is already pretty annoying. There's way too much bullshit/annoying stuff to ban, that you know you'll have to deal with several of these picks in every game.
Arent you annoyed by every patch ever though? iirc you find all the bugs that seem to affect noone and complain about everything anyway. At least a good meta shakeup should make you feel a bit more invigorated to play no?
I'm annoyed when there are huge disparities or champions who are just fun killers being popular (like Rengar, Vlad, etc.). I also get frustrated when super low skill floor stuff gets like Ziggs, Sion or Riven gets popular too as it makes it harder to get advantage from lane but that's another thing entirely.
Of course in other patches there's annoying stuff. But for example when Sion was all the rage he would get banned and bam, problem solved. So even if people say "man Sion's so boring to play against/frustrating in games", you don't end up having to deal with it that much. But now Azir, Thresh, Rek'Sai, Vlad, Kalista are all popular to name a few, and the addition of Devourer creates a bunch of champions who are annoying to deal with combo'd with the issue of peolpe afk farming (and the frequent frustration of soloQ when the enemy jungler literally does it and is obviously meh whenever he tries to be active, but because his laners are all ahead by themselves he can't be punished for it; it's a confirmation bias of course, but Devourer increases the frequency).
So because there are over 10 champions you'd like to see banned, some of them will always slip, which decreases the enjoyment of the games on average.
Also you being from Canada means you don't get to enjoy the stream of glitches from EUW, so yeah, I guess trying to be smug is part of the package.
On July 12 2015 04:32 Alaric wrote: I'm annoyed when there are huge disparities or champions who are just fun killers being popular (like Rengar, Vlad, etc.). I also get frustrated when super low skill floor stuff gets like Ziggs, Sion or Riven gets popular too as it makes it harder to get advantage from lane but that's another thing entirely.
Of course in other patches there's annoying stuff. But for example when Sion was all the rage he would get banned and bam, problem solved. So even if people say "man Sion's so boring to play against/frustrating in games", you don't end up having to deal with it that much. But now Azir, Thresh, Rek'Sai, Vlad, Kalista are all popular to name a few, and the addition of Devourer creates a bunch of champions who are annoying to deal with combo'd with the issue of peolpe afk farming (and the frequent frustration of soloQ when the enemy jungler literally does it and is obviously meh whenever he tries to be active, but because his laners are all ahead by themselves he can't be punished for it; it's a confirmation bias of course, but Devourer increases the frequency).
So because there are over 10 champions you'd like to see banned, some of them will always slip, which decreases the enjoyment of the games on average.
Also you being from Canada means you don't get to enjoy the stream of glitches from EUW, so yeah, I guess trying to be smug is part of the package.
That's cute. I'd rather have glitches of EUW than the shitshow that is NAE.
Elise's lore says that she basically uses her aesthetic appeal (from renewed youth) to recruit the members of her cult. "You like what you see, eh? Come with me and you'll be as lovely as I."
On July 12 2015 04:54 Alaric wrote: She should seduce with her legs instead!
Elise's lore says that she basically uses her aesthetic appeal (from renewed youth) to recruit the members of her cult. "You like what you see, eh? Come with me and you'll be as lovely as I."
On July 12 2015 04:17 Caiada wrote: The day boobs are core to a character identity is the day character dies.
Physical traits are absolutely core to many characters. What if they turned Lucian white? Or if they shaved Gangplank's beard? Now they're covering up MF's boobs.
On July 12 2015 04:54 Alaric wrote: She should seduce with her legs instead!
Elise's lore says that she basically uses her aesthetic appeal (from renewed youth) to recruit the members of her cult. "You like what you see, eh? Come with me and you'll be as lovely as I."
On July 12 2015 04:17 Caiada wrote: The day boobs are core to a character identity is the day character dies.
Physical traits are absolutely core to many characters. What if they turned Lucian white? Or if they shaved Gangplank's beard? Now they're covering up MF's boobs.
Ehhhh... Lucian being black is core to how we recognize him, but has zero to do with his identity.
On July 12 2015 04:17 Caiada wrote: The day boobs are core to a character identity is the day character dies.
Physical traits are absolutely core to many characters. What if they turned Lucian white? Or if they shaved Gangplank's beard? Now they're covering up MF's boobs.
Ehhhh... Lucian being black is core to how we recognize him, but has zero to do with his identity.
?
I don't follow. An identity is a collection of core characteristics that we recognize the character for.
The idea behind the champion could, but you'd have to move most of it toward the shield rather than then person holding it (kinda how Ezreal's supposed to be the smartass prodigy who only gets powers because of his artifact). Dunno what'd be different about Lucian if he wasn't black. Wouldn't change much for me (well he'd have a different accent I guess), but the community clearly attached more importance to his skin colour than anything else, compared to the original character design.
He's a vengeful black guy who exterminated undeads with his wife, lost her due to the activities, and keeps doing it with renewed rage while trying to get back at the specific undead who caught her. Ask the average player about Lucian and he's the black guy with guns + "hide yo wives hide yo kids" since he lost Senna.
You people are still going on about MF's boob size? ffs just move on - this is all so cringy.
Alaric just play things that are fun dude. If so many things annoy you this patch then dont play on it. Its not like you're missing much - 5.14 is gonna be so much more fun its insane. Or stop being so overly sensitive.
In other news, I love the AP item overhaul. I cant remember the last time i felt item paths were this flexible. Its awesome. Orianna is so much fun to play now. Anyone messed around with the more situational items (i.e. WotA/Nashors) yet? So much unexplored depth now :D
On July 12 2015 06:41 Purge wrote: You people are still going on about MF's boob size? ffs just move on - this is all so cringy.
Alaric just play things that are fun dude. If so many things annoy you this patch then dont play on it. Its not like you're missing much - 5.14 is gonna be so much more fun its insane. Or stop being so overly sensitive.
In other news, I love the AP item overhaul. I cant remember the last time i felt item paths were this flexible. Its awesome. Orianna is so much fun to play now. Anyone messed around with the more situational items (i.e. WotA/Nashors) yet? So much unexplored depth now :D
Its very fun to play AP now, but also makes playing ADC so frustrating now that AP has better/cooler item actives and significantly better build paths.
Has anyone tried Runeglaive AP Gangplank? It's such a good item for him. AP GP's biggest weakness is waveclear, which is Runeglaive's biggest strength. The two most important stats on AP GP is CDR and AP, which Runeglaive gives. It even gives mana and synergizes with GP's on-hit Q.
On July 12 2015 06:41 Purge wrote: You people are still going on about MF's boob size? ffs just move on - this is all so cringy.
Alaric just play things that are fun dude. If so many things annoy you this patch then dont play on it. Its not like you're missing much - 5.14 is gonna be so much more fun its insane. Or stop being so overly sensitive.
In other news, I love the AP item overhaul. I cant remember the last time i felt item paths were this flexible. Its awesome. Orianna is so much fun to play now. Anyone messed around with the more situational items (i.e. WotA/Nashors) yet? So much unexplored depth now :D
Its very fun to play AP now, but also makes playing ADC so frustrating now that AP has better/cooler item actives and significantly better build paths.
You gotta be shitting me. Im assuming you're one of those glass is half-empty type people. Stop being a stick in the mud and tell me what creative shit you managed to come up with this patch and how you're fighting against other peoples crazy shit.
On July 12 2015 07:22 Sonnington wrote: Has anyone tried Runeglaive AP Gangplank? It's such a good item for him. AP GP's biggest weakness is waveclear, which is Runeglaive's biggest strength. The two most important stats on AP GP is CDR and AP, which Runeglaive gives. It even gives mana and synergizes with GP's on-hit Q.
Has anyone tried it yet?
Ill try it later :D
AP GP is just passive thru lane then is what, an ult bot for the rest of the game or smn? And dont you give up all your damage without lich?
On July 12 2015 07:22 Sonnington wrote: Has anyone tried Runeglaive AP Gangplank? It's such a good item for him. AP GP's biggest weakness is waveclear, which is Runeglaive's biggest strength. The two most important stats on AP GP is CDR and AP, which Runeglaive gives. It even gives mana and synergizes with GP's on-hit Q.
Has anyone tried it yet?
Ill try it later :D
AP GP is just passive thru lane then is what, an ult bot for the rest of the game or smn? And dont you give up all your damage without lich?
Until next patch when they remove the damage conversion, Runeglaive Q does more damage than Lichbane Q. After that, well, I haven't done the math.
On July 12 2015 07:22 Sonnington wrote: Has anyone tried Runeglaive AP Gangplank? It's such a good item for him. AP GP's biggest weakness is waveclear, which is Runeglaive's biggest strength. The two most important stats on AP GP is CDR and AP, which Runeglaive gives. It even gives mana and synergizes with GP's on-hit Q.
Has anyone tried it yet?
Ill try it later :D
AP GP is just passive thru lane then is what, an ult bot for the rest of the game or smn? And dont you give up all your damage without lich?
Pretty much. I feel AP GP's real strength is in his huge instant heal. He's more of an AP bruiser I usually build 2-3 AP items with spirit visage and other tanky items in order to heal for something like 1000 hp every ten seconds. You can get lichebane, but I've always preferred gauntlet for the increased slow, cdr, and armour. But neither really synergize with runeglaive.
On July 12 2015 07:22 Sonnington wrote: Has anyone tried Runeglaive AP Gangplank? It's such a good item for him. AP GP's biggest weakness is waveclear, which is Runeglaive's biggest strength. The two most important stats on AP GP is CDR and AP, which Runeglaive gives. It even gives mana and synergizes with GP's on-hit Q.
Has anyone tried it yet?
Ill try it later :D
AP GP is just passive thru lane then is what, an ult bot for the rest of the game or smn? And dont you give up all your damage without lich?
Pretty much. I feel AP GP's real strength is in his huge instant heal. He's more of an AP bruiser I usually build 2-3 AP items with spirit visage and other tanky items in order to heal for something like 1000 hp every ten seconds. You can get lichebane, but I've always preferred gauntlet for the increased slow, cdr, and armour. But neither really synergize with runeglaive.
then he's an AP bruiser who does no damage, and has no CC....so basically an ult, he's really just an ult. He's entirely ignorable.
so i was looking at my rune book today. i recognized that i still have some of the old holiday exclusive runes and wondered why riot stopped releasing them. currently they'd give something to sink ip on.
The holiday runes annoy me because it means some of my runes are split between different stacks/names which is a bit awkward to set up quickly. They were cheaper though.
On July 12 2015 10:05 Ansibled wrote: The holiday runes annoy me because it means some of my runes are split between different stacks/names which is a bit awkward to set up quickly. They were cheaper though.
I think people tried to plau Tahm as support/top too much. I think it is very clear that he can't do neither because his kit is very lacking in damage. He will either jungle or do nothing.
On July 12 2015 07:22 Sonnington wrote: Has anyone tried Runeglaive AP Gangplank? It's such a good item for him. AP GP's biggest weakness is waveclear, which is Runeglaive's biggest strength. The two most important stats on AP GP is CDR and AP, which Runeglaive gives. It even gives mana and synergizes with GP's on-hit Q.
Has anyone tried it yet?
Ill try it later :D
AP GP is just passive thru lane then is what, an ult bot for the rest of the game or smn? And dont you give up all your damage without lich?
Pretty much. I feel AP GP's real strength is in his huge instant heal. He's more of an AP bruiser I usually build 2-3 AP items with spirit visage and other tanky items in order to heal for something like 1000 hp every ten seconds. You can get lichebane, but I've always preferred gauntlet for the increased slow, cdr, and armour. But neither really synergize with runeglaive.
then he's an AP bruiser who does no damage, and has no CC....so basically an ult, he's really just an ult. He's entirely ignorable.
It's hard to ignore the Gangplank who has a maxed E hitting your towers. He's a bit like Nunu when he engages a fight. He basically just walks around and does stupid shit until the enemy team engages onto him. You're also forgetting his autos/Q apply a slow and building IBG gives even better chase and catch potential. In any event, it's silly to go full AP on GP given his kit. The heal is his bread and butter AP skill and building defenses on top of it is far more efficient than trying to amp up an ult the enemy can walk out of. Or the .3 ap - .5 ap ratio on runeglaive/lich bane.
On July 12 2015 06:41 Purge wrote: You people are still going on about MF's boob size? ffs just move on - this is all so cringy.
Alaric just play things that are fun dude. If so many things annoy you this patch then dont play on it. Its not like you're missing much - 5.14 is gonna be so much more fun its insane. Or stop being so overly sensitive.
In other news, I love the AP item overhaul. I cant remember the last time i felt item paths were this flexible. Its awesome. Orianna is so much fun to play now. Anyone messed around with the more situational items (i.e. WotA/Nashors) yet? So much unexplored depth now :D
Its very fun to play AP now, but also makes playing ADC so frustrating now that AP has better/cooler item actives and significantly better build paths.
You gotta be shitting me. Im assuming you're one of those glass is half-empty type people. Stop being a stick in the mud and tell me what creative shit you managed to come up with this patch and how you're fighting against other peoples crazy shit.
??? I'm just saying Ap itemization was already more creative and fun, and now the buildups are also less frustrating.
Also my creative idea is eliminating jungle items, which is way more creative than making NLR reasonably priced.
FYI on the PBE runeglaive GP can still clear minion waves using barrel. Barrel will not propagate runeglaive damage to other barrels but nevertheless acts like a monster so that AoE damage is still dealt when it's attacked (regardless if it dies). Just like any AoE effect it will work with paaarley. Also, gangplank ult with upgrades has insane damage/AP ratios and just melts things. It's too bad people can just flash out of it. Having lots of AP is fun but feels very gimmicky. Chances are they'll nerf the ult upgrades anyway, the upgraded damage is decent even without any AP.
Lichbane doesn't interact with barrels at all (aside from the proc you get from casting barrel) so it feels really lame.
I've been building Seraph on every pure AP champ so far. It's so much better than Athene's/Morello now if your champion has decent AP ratios. It gives at least 140 AP, depending on how much base mana a champ has. Seraph + fully charged RoA gives ~270.
I fucking told you support brand is great. Now its even better with liandry/rylai changes.
I tried him mid a ton and he is way way better as a support IMO.
On July 12 2015 14:25 AsianEcksDragon wrote: I've been building Seraph on every pure AP champ so far. It's so much better than Athene's/Morello now if your champion has decent AP ratios. It gives at least 140 AP, depending on how much base mana a champ has. Seraph + fully charged RoA gives ~270.
On July 12 2015 14:25 AsianEcksDragon wrote: I've been building Seraph on every pure AP champ so far. It's so much better than Athene's/Morello now if your champion has decent AP ratios. It gives at least 140 AP, depending on how much base mana a champ has. Seraph + fully charged RoA gives ~270.
except the CDR, many champs with utility need that cdr really badly.
Many midlaners have already switched to CDR/lvl gylphs. I pretty much run it exclusively now because it scales far better than AP/lvl. Don't get me wrong. I still think that CDR is a great stat and would definitely build it if I can fit it in my build. However, I've been fine with just the gylph find that the buffed AP items are worth more than the rushing Grail/Book.
Morello is still the best just because it's so much quicker. And now Dcap is an even better second item if you can afford the slightly longer wait. Most significant differences will be after those two, at least for the champs that were already going the standard build path. Rylai's will be picked up more often and so will Liandry's. Probably the best two last items in the game right now on straight casters like Viktor.
On the other hand, RoA champs are now pretty fucking good.
And Karthus with a stronger tear, stronger Dcap, stronger Rylai's and stronger Void is now in lategame heaven. Add in Liandry's and I'd be honestly surprised if we don't see somebody pick him up. Just don't go RoA.
On July 12 2015 23:10 Prog wrote: Anyone tried Singed this patch already? In theory he also got huge buffs from the ap item changes plus a longer snare.
After rank 1, Rylais doesn't effect his W anymore and his Q only applies a 20% slow. His itemization's gotten better and the scaling MR is a solid buff, but I feel he'll have some hickups as players adjust to how Singed he can be.
Looks pretty good. He's in a poke comp, as should be (that or catch, but there are much better catch supports), versus a low mobility team, who lacks hard initiation (apart from the Gragas ult it's only slows and running at them).
Or since he's a support in a poke comp he's probably just there to peel and take a hefty chunk out of a tank that wants to dive. Don't see Janna having a lot of effect on that unless she wants to walk into poke.
Just as much as his natural synergy with poke comps, seeing as how they went with poke build adc Varus I think it was also to give the team a way to actually take down a tank with his ultimate.
On July 13 2015 01:12 Caiada wrote: But then the only tanks were Grag support and Eve.
Really weird pick choices all over.
I do like the Trungle in poke comps, but I was kind of thinking the same thing.
It would have been a different story if like Gragas was an Alistar and Rumble was a Maokai, but thats not the case.
I think Trundle is a fantastic pick along side AP Ezreal, especially since recently we have been seeing like Maokai+Ali+Sivir being picked to counter it.
I just wish this tank support meta would end already. Riot should really undo some of the nerfs to ranged supports like Lulu, who was only strong in mid and top.
Meteos would complain less if he finally noticed that Void Staff beats Deathcap for champion damage regardless of Aegis being bought or not. Though with Deathcap being made better and Void Staff costing more I wonder how the cutoff changed. Him using "antifun" made me chuckle though.
pick up Haunting Guise and Sorc Shoes on Elise for a mid-game power spike, but when it’s straight countered by one item on one player for the entire enemy team
That's dumb and an overreaction. When you're picking Elise, and building these items, you're going to want skirmishes, fights all over, to abuse your burst and how strong Elise is as a duelist early on, not seek straight 5v5s. Of course Aegis doesn't help, not gonna deny that, but if the jungler is there every time you're trying to catch and execute someone, then either you're getting outplayed and you can't blame the item, or they'll all grouping and you can react to it by split pushing (and Elise is conducive to these patterns regardless of Aegis existing or not).
On July 13 2015 02:35 AsianEcksDragon wrote: I just wish this tank support meta would end already. Riot should really undo some of the nerfs to ranged supports like Lulu, who was only strong in mid and top.
That won't make her initiation-capable, contrary to Alistar or Thresh. And she can't peel with displacements like they (or Janna) can, so she's just inferior atm. There are so many weaker picks just because of the abundance of displacements anyway, and Thresh has 2, so...
Sona, Taric, etc. could be buffed a bunch, they'd stil be inferior because laning isn't what matters (and I'd really like to see more lopsided power curves peaking in the midgame, so the tradeoff of a worse lategame if you don't abuse your spikes doesn't automatically make pros run away just because of how big the onus is on you).
Edit: and I realise defending Aegis while talking about how I'd like midgame oriented stuff to be more viable/consistent sounds weird. There are other things affecting it though—Runeglaive and Devourer being changed help, but Poacher's Knife and Warrior are still by far the worst options, and counterjungling is an important part of midgame oriented gambits as it pertains to map control and starving a member of the enemy team. Said control lets you snowball your leads or get catches during the laning phase, while when you're strong in the early or midgame, you're better off losing farm to starve an opponent than giving both a load of farm (as in why it's better as Pantheon to zone someone off a wave than to trade a kill, unless you mange to leverage that gold advantage over the other enemy lanes shortly after).
That won't make her initiation-capable, contrary to Alistar or Thresh. And she can't peel with displacements like they (or Janna) can, so she's just inferior atm.
That wouldn't make her strong but it would help, especially when she wasn't a strong support in the first place and got further nerfed because she was a bully at mid/top. I don't think undoing those nerfs (except the 5 second speed buff) would make her as strong as she was in S4 because the meta has shifted from assassin and fighter to poke mid and tanky top.
Would be nicer if people would remember that Banner of Command exists and has the exact same passive and is extremely useful in an era of heavy AP wavepushing. But that's asking for too much when people crucify junglers w/o Locket. I'm pretty sure asking for Lemon to get Banner is like pulling teeth. It's kind of telling he didn't even mention it.
On the other hand, I doubt the Aegis passive will exist as-is post-S5. Riot hates non-offensive auras, and even those they want to add some degree of interaction to.
On July 13 2015 03:52 Caiada wrote: Would be nicer if people would remember that Banner of Command exists and has the exact same passive and is extremely useful in an era of heavy AP wavepushing. But that's asking for too much when people crucify junglers w/o Locket. I'm pretty sure asking for Lemon to get Banner is like pulling teeth. It's kind of telling he didn't even mention it.
Outside of sometimes Lustboy and maybe a few scattered times elsewhere, no team seems to put any stock into the Banner bandwagon in LCS. Meanwhile in Korea even Shens sometimes go "I need to split push, Banner up!"
On July 13 2015 03:02 NeoIllusions wrote: l0l, he hates that item so much
i agree 100% and knew what the post would be about before i read it
its an item that you always want to have on your team but doesn't feel fun at all to buy it
might as well just add 20 flat mr to everyone and let people buy the items they want
riots always gave half assed answers to why they want it in the game like it makes split pushers stronger or something
they removed bulwark yet aegis/locket exists lol
it always comes down to we need more item actives and we keep waiting but they never come
They never come? People have been asking for more active abilities on items for aaaaages. I grant that Riot has been very slow to deliver and reluctant to introduce anything remotely comparable to Dota 2, but there's a ton more active abilities than when I started the game back in pre-season 1. AA didn't have a shield. BotRK is new. Locket shield is new. Tiamat/hydra active is new. Banner of command active is "new". Zz'rot portal is new. Righteous glory is new. Mikaels is new. Twin shadows is new. Ohmwrecker is new. Shurelya's was new before it got removed and turned into Talisman. Frost queen's claim is new. Face of the mountain is new. Sightstone is new. Zeke's rework is on the PBE right now. Maybe there's stuff that I forgot too.
It's ok to say that there are problems with the actives we have, or even that we should have more actives, but it's not ok to pretend that Riot hasn't even tried.
the problem is aegis is more necessary then ever with what they are doing with the game. if that item doesnt exist then its adc and 4 AP all day every day. Hell, it already almost is just hasnt settled in yet. No idea what they were thinking with this AP makeover, its wayyy too strong.
Never mind that almost all mages end up with less AP unless they are tear/roa based. Pushing for better AP build paths and more utility, probably not the hugest buff ever.
On July 13 2015 04:11 VayneAuthority wrote: the problem is aegis is more necessary then ever with what they are doing with the game. if that item doesnt exist then its adc and 4 AP all day every day. Hell, it already almost is just hasnt settled in yet. No idea what they were thinking with this AP makeover, its wayyy too strong.
Maybe they are making over AD items?
Honestly, I thought it was stupid too, why did AP items need to have smooth buildups in the first place?
Riot doesn't really get the difference between cost efficient, slot efficient, and etc in item slots.
On July 13 2015 03:02 NeoIllusions wrote: l0l, he hates that item so much
i agree 100% and knew what the post would be about before i read it
its an item that you always want to have on your team but doesn't feel fun at all to buy it
might as well just add 20 flat mr to everyone and let people buy the items they want
riots always gave half assed answers to why they want it in the game like it makes split pushers stronger or something
they removed bulwark yet aegis/locket exists lol
it always comes down to we need more item actives and we keep waiting but they never come
They never come? People have been asking for more active abilities on items for aaaaages. I grant that Riot has been very slow to deliver and reluctant to introduce anything remotely comparable to Dota 2, but there's a ton more active abilities than when I started the game back in pre-season 1. AA didn't have a shield. BotRK is new. Locket shield is new. Tiamat/hydra active is new. Banner of command active is "new". Zz'rot portal is new. Righteous glory is new. Mikaels is new. Twin shadows is new. Ohmwrecker is new. Shurelya's was new before it got removed and turned into Talisman. Frost queen's claim is new. Face of the mountain is new. Sightstone is new. Zeke's rework is on the PBE right now. Maybe there's stuff that I forgot too.
It's ok to say that there are problems with the actives we have, or even that we should have more actives, but it's not ok to pretend that Riot hasn't even tried.
ok they come but either suck or aren't enough.I also have been playing since s1 and building literally the same 5 items on adc with the only change that you get a sash upgrade is fucking stupid.
The only role itemization that has improved is the support since then(which is even kind of arguable since the old ward bots or getting items was interesting decision) and the junglers got jungle items which cant really say if it is better.Everything else is the same.
On July 13 2015 03:02 NeoIllusions wrote: l0l, he hates that item so much
i agree 100% and knew what the post would be about before i read it
its an item that you always want to have on your team but doesn't feel fun at all to buy it
might as well just add 20 flat mr to everyone and let people buy the items they want
riots always gave half assed answers to why they want it in the game like it makes split pushers stronger or something
they removed bulwark yet aegis/locket exists lol
it always comes down to we need more item actives and we keep waiting but they never come
They never come? People have been asking for more active abilities on items for aaaaages. I grant that Riot has been very slow to deliver and reluctant to introduce anything remotely comparable to Dota 2, but there's a ton more active abilities than when I started the game back in pre-season 1. AA didn't have a shield. BotRK is new. Locket shield is new. Tiamat/hydra active is new. Banner of command active is "new". Zz'rot portal is new. Righteous glory is new. Mikaels is new. Twin shadows is new. Ohmwrecker is new. Shurelya's was new before it got removed and turned into Talisman. Frost queen's claim is new. Face of the mountain is new. Sightstone is new. Zeke's rework is on the PBE right now. Maybe there's stuff that I forgot too.
It's ok to say that there are problems with the actives we have, or even that we should have more actives, but it's not ok to pretend that Riot hasn't even tried.
ok they come but either suck or aren't enough.I also have been playing since s1 and building literally the same 5 items on adc with the only change that you get a sash upgrade is fucking stupid.
The only role itemization that has improved is the support since then(which is even kind of arguable since the old ward bots or getting items was interesting decision) and the junglers got jungle items which cant really say if it is better.Everything else is the same.
When your role is to deal the most damage, you will build the items that enables that. Tanks have choices because they have to account for the other team's damage type but ADCs are always gonna be pigeoned-hole in their builds as long as their job is to deal damage. You still see many times more variety now than S1 or S2 when it was just IE/PD for most ADC or Trinity for Corki/Ezreal. Now you see some ADCs build BOTRK, Muramana, and hurricane. Yes these are niche items, but they have great synergies with certain champs kit which is what Riot has been doing with some of the newer champ release.
On July 13 2015 04:34 Caiada wrote: Never mind that almost all mages end up with less AP unless they are tear/roa based. Pushing for better AP build paths and more utility, probably not the hugest buff ever.
tl;dl - Assuming Deathcap / Zhonya's / Luden's / Void, an AP champion is only down 19AP. While some items did have their AP lowered, Deathcap's multiplier has gone up.
On July 13 2015 04:11 VayneAuthority wrote: the problem is aegis is more necessary then ever with what they are doing with the game. if that item doesnt exist then its adc and 4 AP all day every day. Hell, it already almost is just hasnt settled in yet. No idea what they were thinking with this AP makeover, its wayyy too strong.
Maybe they are making over AD items?
Honestly, I thought it was stupid too, why did AP items need to have smooth buildups in the first place?
Riot doesn't really get the difference between cost efficient, slot efficient, and etc in item slots.
Xyph said he wanted to do a pass on AD, but it was a much more difficult task because AD doesn't just focus on ADC so there is a lot more to take into account. Obviously, it requires an AS and Crit pass aswell.
I don't have an issue with how they changed the AP items, I just think it's something they should have done during the offseason.
On July 13 2015 03:02 NeoIllusions wrote: l0l, he hates that item so much
i agree 100% and knew what the post would be about before i read it
its an item that you always want to have on your team but doesn't feel fun at all to buy it
might as well just add 20 flat mr to everyone and let people buy the items they want
riots always gave half assed answers to why they want it in the game like it makes split pushers stronger or something
they removed bulwark yet aegis/locket exists lol
it always comes down to we need more item actives and we keep waiting but they never come
They never come? People have been asking for more active abilities on items for aaaaages. I grant that Riot has been very slow to deliver and reluctant to introduce anything remotely comparable to Dota 2, but there's a ton more active abilities than when I started the game back in pre-season 1. AA didn't have a shield. BotRK is new. Locket shield is new. Tiamat/hydra active is new. Banner of command active is "new". Zz'rot portal is new. Righteous glory is new. Mikaels is new. Twin shadows is new. Ohmwrecker is new. Shurelya's was new before it got removed and turned into Talisman. Frost queen's claim is new. Face of the mountain is new. Sightstone is new. Zeke's rework is on the PBE right now. Maybe there's stuff that I forgot too.
It's ok to say that there are problems with the actives we have, or even that we should have more actives, but it's not ok to pretend that Riot hasn't even tried.
ok they come but either suck or aren't enough.I also have been playing since s1 and building literally the same 5 items on adc with the only change that you get a sash upgrade is fucking stupid.
The only role itemization that has improved is the support since then(which is even kind of arguable since the old ward bots or getting items was interesting decision) and the junglers got jungle items which cant really say if it is better.Everything else is the same.
When your role is to deal the most damage, you will build the items that enables that. Tanks have choices because they have to account for the other team's damage type but ADCs are always gonna be pigeoned-hole in their builds as long as their job is to deal damage. You still see many times more variety now than S1 or S2 when it was just IE/PD for most ADC or Trinity for Corki/Ezreal. Now you see some ADCs build BOTRK, Muramana, and hurricane. Yes these are niche items, but they have great synergies with certain champs kit which is what Riot has been doing with some of the newer champ release.
IMO its the niche-ness that is part of the problem, also that Trinity doesn't work with IBG is a problem for Trinity ADCs.
Generally, ADCs dislike their itemization because they usually feel that their "big" choices are BT vs. Blade and Sash vs. Banshees. Hexdrinker generally sucks, and Brut/Ghostblade seems to only be a Lucian thing. Manamune, Hurricane, Zephyr, Essense Reaver, and to an extent BOTRK/TF all have anti-synergy with IE, which is the core of the ADC's power. Its like if DCap's bonus didn't work with the AP on Luden's, Guise, Rylias, WOTA, and Zhonyas.
I don't think anyone would really want Trinity and IBG to synergize. It's gonna be S2 Trinity x100 and bruisers will all build it whereas for ADC, only Ezreal would enjoy the benefit.
And BOTRK/Hurricane/Manamune/ER have synergy with IE, just not the MOST synergy is what you're trying to say. Anything that boost AD and AS have synergy with IE. It's not like AP champs don't have niche items like Nashors. I feel like the most recent item change makes stacking pure AP + Void Staff the best build. Seraph, Deathcap, and Luden are simply way too good together. I can't bring myself to go back to any of the Codex builds.
The biggest problem is IE. Crit is central but needs at least two very expensive and pigeonholed items for the maximum value. That combined with BT being overwhelmingly efficient as a third item and LW being required means you've got one slot with actual choice. It needs a big rework they're not prepared to do, probably not even in pre-season.
There are now 4 100 AP items. RoA/Rylai's/Luden's/Zhonya's. They can all be slotted in each other's place depending on need. Dcap is arguably too crucial but it's just one slot and can vary based on champ and the specific synergies. CDR has varying value and is easy to cap on in like 4 different forms. Runes, boots, codex item. It's much less constraining than crit.
Speaking of CDR, it's still worth it. Now moreso, arguably. Morello's quick build up puts you ahead of the exceedingly expensive tear build for about 1000 gold and CDR is an important stat in a lot of highly-picked mages' kits. Tear stacking also varies a lot and can be pretty damn slow. Luden's is now more than ever terrifically overrated outside of burst/poke. Many champions will make use of the Rylai's/Liandry's interaction (and 700 health) a lot more than we will 150 damage on one rotation. I'm too lazy to do math, but I'm pretty sure Morello (or Tear if you make good use/don't need CDR, I suppose)/Dcap/Void/Rylai/Liandry's is the best build in the game on most champs right now into any reasonably tanky team. Skip Liandry's for Luden's on poke champs into squishy targets, Zhonya's if you're going into Zed or some shit.
On July 13 2015 06:38 AsianEcksDragon wrote: I don't think anyone would really want Trinity and IBG to synergize. It's gonna be S2 Trinity x100 and bruisers will all build it whereas for ADC, only Ezreal would enjoy the benefit.
And BOTRK/Hurricane/Manamune/ER have synergy with IE, just not the MOST synergy is what you're trying to say. Anything that boost AD and AS have synergy with IE. It's not like AP champs don't have niche items like Nashors. I feel like the most recent item change makes stacking pure AP + Void Staff the best build. Seraph, Deathcap, and Luden are simply way too good together. I can't bring myself to go back to any of the Codex builds.
Nashors is the exception for AP itemization, especially now.
On July 13 2015 07:20 Caiada wrote: The biggest problem is IE. Crit is central but needs at least two very expensive and pigeonholed items for the maximum value. That combined with BT being overwhelmingly efficient as a third item and LW being required means you've got one slot with actual choice. It needs a big rework they're not prepared to do, probably not even in pre-season.
Its not just that, its the crappiness of the last slot items (generally), such that most of the time you can't effectively build them first-4th as an item. Its like, Got IE/PD/LW/BT(BOTRK) should I go for Sash or Banshees?
Hurricane first is bad, hurricane 2nd-5th is bad on all non-Kalista champs. Zephyr is bad except as a situational boots replacement. Merc Scimitar is bad until at least 4th item (only good AD active or aura) Maw is bad. Muramana is bad on all but 2 ADCs, is core on those 2, but ends up gimping their overall DPS because they dont build IE. Ghostblade is good at item 1/2 on some champions, but gimps your 3+item builds. FM, BC, Reaver, all pretty much bad. Entropy would be good, but is unavailable. Hydra would be interesting as item 1 or 3+, but is unavailable.
On July 13 2015 08:13 Ketara wrote: Sightstone is maybe okay.
Is it? What would a game without any vision tools but trinkets (no greens or pinks) play like? I mean the greater stealth totem is pretty much a sightstone lite anyway. Maybe buff red and blue trinkets and force teams to make meaningful tradeoffs. If you want loads of vision you have to sacrifice denial or ranged scanning. Giving supports/junglers another item slot is just gravy.
Vision is too homogenous imo. There's two sighstones on every team and hyper engage comps are required to start fights because both teams are basically maphacking.
Tweaking with something incredibly fundamental to the game is probably not the best response to what's ultimately a temporary meta. Simple meta development is a really underrated tool.
On July 13 2015 08:13 Ketara wrote: Sightstone is maybe okay.
Is it? What would a game without any vision tools but trinkets (no greens or pinks) play like? I mean the greater stealth totem is pretty much a sightstone lite anyway. Maybe buff red and blue trinkets and force teams to make meaningful tradeoffs. If you want loads of vision you have to sacrifice denial or ranged scanning. Giving supports/junglers another item slot is just gravy.
Vision is too homogenous imo. There's two sighstones on every team and hyper engage comps are required to start fights because both teams are basically maphacking.
The meta would switch to supports buying tons of wards prelevel 9 and never building any items. That's why they changed it to only 3 green wards on the map.
Here's a wildly inaccurate thought experiment on what removing sightstone and buyable wards would do to vision:
Currently in a typical pro game you might see something like 2 sightstones, 4 red trinkets and a blue trinket.
If each red trinket cancels 1 ward, that means each team gets about 2 wards on the map on average.
By the same rules, if you removed the sightstones and made support/jungle get upgraded yellow trinkets instead, each team would get about 4 wards on the map on average, and vision would actually increase.
Obviously that's not how real games work, but it's an indication that simply removing sightstone from the game wouldn't necessarily address the "problem" you're talking about. Problem in quotations because I do not see it as a problem in the first place.
On July 13 2015 08:13 Ketara wrote: Sightstone is maybe okay.
Is it? What would a game without any vision tools but trinkets (no greens or pinks) play like? I mean the greater stealth totem is pretty much a sightstone lite anyway. Maybe buff red and blue trinkets and force teams to make meaningful tradeoffs. If you want loads of vision you have to sacrifice denial or ranged scanning. Giving supports/junglers another item slot is just gravy.
Vision is too homogenous imo. There's two sighstones on every team and hyper engage comps are required to start fights because both teams are basically maphacking.
The meta would switch to supports buying tons of wards prelevel 9 and never building any items. That's why they changed it to only 3 green wards on the map.
No I was suggesting no greens or pinks purchasable. The only vision can come from the trinkets.
On July 13 2015 10:14 Ketara wrote: Here's a wildly inaccurate thought experiment on what removing sightstone and buyable wards would do to vision:
Currently in a typical pro game you might see something like 2 sightstones, 4 red trinkets and a blue trinket.
If each red trinket cancels 1 ward, that means each team gets about 2 wards on the map on average.
By the same rules, if you removed the sightstones and made support/jungle get upgraded yellow trinkets instead, each team would get about 4 wards on the map on average, and vision would actually increase.
Obviously that's not how real games work, but it's an indication that simply removing sightstone from the game wouldn't necessarily address the "problem" you're talking about. Problem in quotations because I do not see it as a problem in the first place.
The thing is if your ward gets swept you generally just drop another one at no cost from one of your teams 2 endlessly replenishing sightstones. Sure there's a low/moderate risk of being engaged on from out of vision (though that's hardly a problem for the meta tanky supports atm) and you lose some pressure when your support has to back to refill, but there's practically no cost to rewarding so everyone does it.
There's no way each team has 2 wards on the map on average. Rarely in solo q let alone in a pro game. More often than not the map is a christmas tree.
On July 13 2015 08:13 Ketara wrote: Sightstone is maybe okay.
Is it? What would a game without any vision tools but trinkets (no greens or pinks) play like? I mean the greater stealth totem is pretty much a sightstone lite anyway. Maybe buff red and blue trinkets and force teams to make meaningful tradeoffs. If you want loads of vision you have to sacrifice denial or ranged scanning. Giving supports/junglers another item slot is just gravy.
Vision is too homogenous imo. There's two sighstones on every team and hyper engage comps are required to start fights because both teams are basically maphacking.
The meta would switch to supports buying tons of wards prelevel 9 and never building any items. That's why they changed it to only 3 green wards on the map.
What if we introduce a consumable item that lets the drinker see wards and lets him control the entire vision of the map until the item expires or the user dies? We can give it to the guy who roams the most on the team...like the jungler.
On July 13 2015 08:13 Ketara wrote: Sightstone is maybe okay.
Is it? What would a game without any vision tools but trinkets (no greens or pinks) play like? I mean the greater stealth totem is pretty much a sightstone lite anyway. Maybe buff red and blue trinkets and force teams to make meaningful tradeoffs. If you want loads of vision you have to sacrifice denial or ranged scanning. Giving supports/junglers another item slot is just gravy.
Vision is too homogenous imo. There's two sighstones on every team and hyper engage comps are required to start fights because both teams are basically maphacking.
The meta would switch to supports buying tons of wards prelevel 9 and never building any items. That's why they changed it to only 3 green wards on the map.
No I was suggesting no greens or pinks purchasable. The only vision can come from the trinkets.
On July 13 2015 10:14 Ketara wrote: Here's a wildly inaccurate thought experiment on what removing sightstone and buyable wards would do to vision:
Currently in a typical pro game you might see something like 2 sightstones, 4 red trinkets and a blue trinket.
If each red trinket cancels 1 ward, that means each team gets about 2 wards on the map on average.
By the same rules, if you removed the sightstones and made support/jungle get upgraded yellow trinkets instead, each team would get about 4 wards on the map on average, and vision would actually increase.
Obviously that's not how real games work, but it's an indication that simply removing sightstone from the game wouldn't necessarily address the "problem" you're talking about. Problem in quotations because I do not see it as a problem in the first place.
The thing is if your ward gets swept you generally just drop another one at no cost from one of your teams 2 endlessly replenishing sightstones. Sure there's a low/moderate risk of being engaged on from out of vision (though that's hardly a problem for the meta tanky supports atm) and you lose some pressure when your support has to back to refill, but there's practically no cost to rewarding so everyone does it.
There's no way each team has 2 wards on the map on average. Rarely in solo q let alone in a pro game. More often than not the map is a christmas tree.
At that point, its just better to remove all vision besides minions/towers/champs from the map. Particularly in the laning phase. Or, every champion should get the little ! over their head Rengar-style anytime there is a 1v2+ within 1000 units of him. Pre-trinkets and pre-sightstone, ganking was very frustrating for soloQ because it felt pseudo-random, and in pro games it was silly to watch because tops like Flame would turn 1 gank, even if it didn't get a kill, into the end of the game. The combat to that was warding, which means that system under you would last basically the entire game, instead of just until 1st back.
On July 13 2015 08:13 Ketara wrote: Sightstone is maybe okay.
Is it? What would a game without any vision tools but trinkets (no greens or pinks) play like? I mean the greater stealth totem is pretty much a sightstone lite anyway. Maybe buff red and blue trinkets and force teams to make meaningful tradeoffs. If you want loads of vision you have to sacrifice denial or ranged scanning. Giving supports/junglers another item slot is just gravy.
Vision is too homogenous imo. There's two sighstones on every team and hyper engage comps are required to start fights because both teams are basically maphacking.
The meta would switch to supports buying tons of wards prelevel 9 and never building any items. That's why they changed it to only 3 green wards on the map.
No I was suggesting no greens or pinks purchasable. The only vision can come from the trinkets.
On July 13 2015 10:14 Ketara wrote: Here's a wildly inaccurate thought experiment on what removing sightstone and buyable wards would do to vision:
Currently in a typical pro game you might see something like 2 sightstones, 4 red trinkets and a blue trinket.
If each red trinket cancels 1 ward, that means each team gets about 2 wards on the map on average.
By the same rules, if you removed the sightstones and made support/jungle get upgraded yellow trinkets instead, each team would get about 4 wards on the map on average, and vision would actually increase.
Obviously that's not how real games work, but it's an indication that simply removing sightstone from the game wouldn't necessarily address the "problem" you're talking about. Problem in quotations because I do not see it as a problem in the first place.
The thing is if your ward gets swept you generally just drop another one at no cost from one of your teams 2 endlessly replenishing sightstones. Sure there's a low/moderate risk of being engaged on from out of vision (though that's hardly a problem for the meta tanky supports atm) and you lose some pressure when your support has to back to refill, but there's practically no cost to rewarding so everyone does it.
There's no way each team has 2 wards on the map on average. Rarely in solo q let alone in a pro game. More often than not the map is a christmas tree.
Ah I see. So it would be more like season 1 and 2 where people just didn't buy wards.
I like the idea of vision being cheap. If you don't have proper vision control that's pretty much your own fault. You didn't play the map correctly, you didn't think ahead, you don't play as a team, or the early game went so badly it's too dangerous to gain important vision control. When you make vision a rarer commodity the possibility and probability for random encounters to happen goes up. I don't like the idea that random factors that you can't counter are more likely to determine the outcome of the game.
On July 13 2015 08:13 Ketara wrote: Sightstone is maybe okay.
Is it? What would a game without any vision tools but trinkets (no greens or pinks) play like? I mean the greater stealth totem is pretty much a sightstone lite anyway. Maybe buff red and blue trinkets and force teams to make meaningful tradeoffs. If you want loads of vision you have to sacrifice denial or ranged scanning. Giving supports/junglers another item slot is just gravy.
Vision is too homogenous imo. There's two sighstones on every team and hyper engage comps are required to start fights because both teams are basically maphacking.
The meta would switch to supports buying tons of wards prelevel 9 and never building any items. That's why they changed it to only 3 green wards on the map.
No I was suggesting no greens or pinks purchasable. The only vision can come from the trinkets.
On July 13 2015 10:14 Ketara wrote: Here's a wildly inaccurate thought experiment on what removing sightstone and buyable wards would do to vision:
Currently in a typical pro game you might see something like 2 sightstones, 4 red trinkets and a blue trinket.
If each red trinket cancels 1 ward, that means each team gets about 2 wards on the map on average.
By the same rules, if you removed the sightstones and made support/jungle get upgraded yellow trinkets instead, each team would get about 4 wards on the map on average, and vision would actually increase.
Obviously that's not how real games work, but it's an indication that simply removing sightstone from the game wouldn't necessarily address the "problem" you're talking about. Problem in quotations because I do not see it as a problem in the first place.
The thing is if your ward gets swept you generally just drop another one at no cost from one of your teams 2 endlessly replenishing sightstones. Sure there's a low/moderate risk of being engaged on from out of vision (though that's hardly a problem for the meta tanky supports atm) and you lose some pressure when your support has to back to refill, but there's practically no cost to rewarding so everyone does it.
There's no way each team has 2 wards on the map on average. Rarely in solo q let alone in a pro game. More often than not the map is a christmas tree.
At that point, its just better to remove all vision besides minions/towers/champs from the map. Particularly in the laning phase. Or, every champion should get the little ! over their head Rengar-style anytime there is a 1v2+ within 1000 units of him. Pre-trinkets and pre-sightstone, ganking was very frustrating for soloQ because it felt pseudo-random, and in pro games it was silly to watch because tops like Flame would turn 1 gank, even if it didn't get a kill, into the end of the game. The combat to that was warding, which means that system under you would last basically the entire game, instead of just until 1st back.
Why would it be better to remove all vision from the game? The idea (at least in my head) was that your team would have limited vision tools available, similar in some ways to Dota but within the LoL trinket system which works pretty well imo. Your team could still upgrade yellow trinkets and light the map up but your denial options would be limited, alternately you could focus on vision denial by purchasing mostly reds or scouting fog by purchasing blues. It'd be a sort of rock, paper, scissors arrangement where yellow beats blue which beats red which beats yellow.
I dunno, might not work but I'm just tired of the infinite vision game.
It's not infinite. Fundamental misunderstanding. It's based (quite well, honestly) on opportunity cost.
Look at Fnatic. They have an entire 14-0 strategy focused around winning fights with selective vision.
Huni splits bottom at around 20-22 minutes. Attracts attention, wards up bottom. Rest of the team selectively denies vision around Baron, wards up around it. They get the fight at Baron and take it on their own terms off the vision (and skill, but that's another matter.)
On July 13 2015 08:13 Ketara wrote: Sightstone is maybe okay.
Is it? What would a game without any vision tools but trinkets (no greens or pinks) play like? I mean the greater stealth totem is pretty much a sightstone lite anyway. Maybe buff red and blue trinkets and force teams to make meaningful tradeoffs. If you want loads of vision you have to sacrifice denial or ranged scanning. Giving supports/junglers another item slot is just gravy.
Vision is too homogenous imo. There's two sighstones on every team and hyper engage comps are required to start fights because both teams are basically maphacking.
The meta would switch to supports buying tons of wards prelevel 9 and never building any items. That's why they changed it to only 3 green wards on the map.
No I was suggesting no greens or pinks purchasable. The only vision can come from the trinkets.
On July 13 2015 10:14 Ketara wrote: Here's a wildly inaccurate thought experiment on what removing sightstone and buyable wards would do to vision:
Currently in a typical pro game you might see something like 2 sightstones, 4 red trinkets and a blue trinket.
If each red trinket cancels 1 ward, that means each team gets about 2 wards on the map on average.
By the same rules, if you removed the sightstones and made support/jungle get upgraded yellow trinkets instead, each team would get about 4 wards on the map on average, and vision would actually increase.
Obviously that's not how real games work, but it's an indication that simply removing sightstone from the game wouldn't necessarily address the "problem" you're talking about. Problem in quotations because I do not see it as a problem in the first place.
The thing is if your ward gets swept you generally just drop another one at no cost from one of your teams 2 endlessly replenishing sightstones. Sure there's a low/moderate risk of being engaged on from out of vision (though that's hardly a problem for the meta tanky supports atm) and you lose some pressure when your support has to back to refill, but there's practically no cost to rewarding so everyone does it.
There's no way each team has 2 wards on the map on average. Rarely in solo q let alone in a pro game. More often than not the map is a christmas tree.
At that point, its just better to remove all vision besides minions/towers/champs from the map. Particularly in the laning phase. Or, every champion should get the little ! over their head Rengar-style anytime there is a 1v2+ within 1000 units of him. Pre-trinkets and pre-sightstone, ganking was very frustrating for soloQ because it felt pseudo-random, and in pro games it was silly to watch because tops like Flame would turn 1 gank, even if it didn't get a kill, into the end of the game. The combat to that was warding, which means that system under you would last basically the entire game, instead of just until 1st back.
Why would it be better to remove all vision from the game? The idea (at least in my head) was that your team would have limited vision tools available, similar in some ways to Dota but within the LoL trinket system which works pretty well imo. Your team could still upgrade yellow trinkets and light the map up but your denial options would be limited, alternately you could focus on vision denial by purchasing mostly reds or scouting fog by purchasing blues. It'd be a sort of rock, paper, scissors arrangement where yellow beats blue which beats red which beats yellow.
I dunno, might not work but I'm just tired of the infinite vision game.
Yes, it would be RPS, which is crappy because you start the game with 0 vision. Starcraft analogy (TvZ) if Zrush>Trush>Zexp>Texp>Zrush thats not terrible if scouting is a skill, but trinket purchasing is not a skill, so its essentially like that is correct, but from the fountain, and you have to remember, backing is a cost in this game.
Its not really like the DOTA system at all because that would be the S2/3 system except with wards costing more, having limited supply, and supports not being basically wardbots. The majority of Dota (and dota2) is played with most of the map black, and ganks are easier to counter by the defensive team either by grouping elsewhere, or TPing to the fight.
Because of the snowball nature of the game, generally, you want to have S3 style nearly infinite vision (but cheaper and earlier), or no vision, with the fog of war being less impactful.
On July 13 2015 13:02 Caiada wrote: It's not infinite. Fundamental misunderstanding. It's based (quite well, honestly) on opportunity cost.
Look at Fnatic. They have an entire 14-0 strategy focused around winning fights with selective vision.
Huni splits bottom at around 20-22 minutes. Attracts attention, wards up bottom. Rest of the team selectively denies vision around Baron, wards up around it. They get the fight at Baron and take it on their own terms off the vision (and skill, but that's another matter.)
Vision's a complex resource.
I was being a bit facetious with the infinite comment. I know it's not infinite, but it's extremely low cost. Bountiful if you like.
It's probably less of an issue in pro games tbh. There's plenty of opportunity to exploit vision if your team is co-ordinated (Fnatic being the best in the west at it) but in solo q it feels impossible. People don't know you've even cleared a ward let alone what to do with that information but even solo q junglers know they need to buy a sightstone or upgrade their yellow at the very least.
On July 12 2015 06:41 Purge wrote: You people are still going on about MF's boob size? ffs just move on - this is all so cringy.
Alaric just play things that are fun dude. If so many things annoy you this patch then dont play on it. Its not like you're missing much - 5.14 is gonna be so much more fun its insane. Or stop being so overly sensitive.
In other news, I love the AP item overhaul. I cant remember the last time i felt item paths were this flexible. Its awesome. Orianna is so much fun to play now. Anyone messed around with the more situational items (i.e. WotA/Nashors) yet? So much unexplored depth now :D
Its very fun to play AP now, but also makes playing ADC so frustrating now that AP has better/cooler item actives and significantly better build paths.
You gotta be shitting me. Im assuming you're one of those glass is half-empty type people. Stop being a stick in the mud and tell me what creative shit you managed to come up with this patch and how you're fighting against other peoples crazy shit.
??? I'm just saying Ap itemization was already more creative and fun, and now the buildups are also less frustrating.
Also my creative idea is eliminating jungle items, which is way more creative than making NLR reasonably priced.
Yeah i was getting a bit stir-crazy in the house yesterday and went a bit overboard with the sass. Apologies, but the whining here can be a bit ludicrous and it gets to me sometimes.
Otherwise the jungle items are an integral part of the game - they gate gold income from laners and creates the oppurtunity costs necessary for junglers to get a decent average income ingame. Oppurtunity as an item slot, as gold investment, oppurtunity cost as a stat bundle or playstyle enhancer. Admittedly currently the latter of those is not working right b/c cinderhulk is heads and above the most useful, but their basic concept is a core mechanic.
On July 13 2015 08:13 Ketara wrote: Sightstone is maybe okay.
Is it? What would a game without any vision tools but trinkets (no greens or pinks) play like? I mean the greater stealth totem is pretty much a sightstone lite anyway. Maybe buff red and blue trinkets and force teams to make meaningful tradeoffs. If you want loads of vision you have to sacrifice denial or ranged scanning. Giving supports/junglers another item slot is just gravy.
Vision is too homogenous imo. There's two sighstones on every team and hyper engage comps are required to start fights because both teams are basically maphacking.
The meta would switch to supports buying tons of wards prelevel 9 and never building any items. That's why they changed it to only 3 green wards on the map.
What if we introduce a consumable item that lets the drinker see wards and lets him control the entire vision of the map until the item expires or the user dies? We can give it to the guy who roams the most on the team...like the jungler.
Riot pls hire me now.
Oracles is waay too strong when you are ahead because it effectively means you can permaclear wards around objectives. And useless when behind because you just get focused and die even easier than normal because you are spending 400 gold every death on an item that gives no stats. If it gave stats everyone would get it because it makes no sense to not have it if it's a statistically good choice on a tank or something similar.
Which is why its gone. Or was this a joke i missed. Probably the latter. Sorry.
On July 12 2015 06:41 Purge wrote: You people are still going on about MF's boob size? ffs just move on - this is all so cringy.
Alaric just play things that are fun dude. If so many things annoy you this patch then dont play on it. Its not like you're missing much - 5.14 is gonna be so much more fun its insane. Or stop being so overly sensitive.
In other news, I love the AP item overhaul. I cant remember the last time i felt item paths were this flexible. Its awesome. Orianna is so much fun to play now. Anyone messed around with the more situational items (i.e. WotA/Nashors) yet? So much unexplored depth now :D
Its very fun to play AP now, but also makes playing ADC so frustrating now that AP has better/cooler item actives and significantly better build paths.
You gotta be shitting me. Im assuming you're one of those glass is half-empty type people. Stop being a stick in the mud and tell me what creative shit you managed to come up with this patch and how you're fighting against other peoples crazy shit.
??? I'm just saying Ap itemization was already more creative and fun, and now the buildups are also less frustrating.
Also my creative idea is eliminating jungle items, which is way more creative than making NLR reasonably priced.
Yeah i was getting a bit stir-crazy in the house yesterday and went a bit overboard with the sass. Apologies, but the whining here can be a bit ludicrous and it gets to me sometimes.
Otherwise the jungle items are an integral part of the game - they gate gold income from laners and creates the oppurtunity costs necessary for junglers to get a decent average income ingame. Oppurtunity as an item slot, as gold investment, oppurtunity cost as a stat bundle or playstyle enhancer. Admittedly currently the latter of those is not working right b/c cinderhulk is heads and above the most useful, but their basic concept is a core mechanic.
Here is why I disagree with you:
A) They have a summoner spell, smite, that should be capable of doing all of those things you describe.
B) The first problem with jungle items is that you either make junglers and jungle items shit (relegating junglers to 2nd class citizens), or laners buy them (and now take smite) and gain advantages in exactly the way that Riot was trying to fix after S2. Thus defeating the purpose of the jungle item.
C) Because a second (arguably first, but these are the 2 most important goals of post S2 jungle changes) is jungle diversity, you need to have parity among the jungle items, or create a single jungle item that makes all types of junglers equal. (As a reminder, the S2 finals patch had more junglers played competitively than any subsequent patch, often more than entire seasons spanning many patches). Typically, the jungle meta is dictated by what is the "op" jungle item of the day. It also eliminates from possible jungle play all champions that dont synergize well with a jungle item.
Because I'm tired, and might have been unclear. Jungle items suck because: They reduce jungle diversity (AP vs. AD. vs. Tank vs. Bruiser, etc), fuck up the lanes, and relegate junglers to a second class status.
On July 13 2015 08:13 Ketara wrote: Sightstone is maybe okay.
Is it? What would a game without any vision tools but trinkets (no greens or pinks) play like? I mean the greater stealth totem is pretty much a sightstone lite anyway. Maybe buff red and blue trinkets and force teams to make meaningful tradeoffs. If you want loads of vision you have to sacrifice denial or ranged scanning. Giving supports/junglers another item slot is just gravy.
Vision is too homogenous imo. There's two sighstones on every team and hyper engage comps are required to start fights because both teams are basically maphacking.
The meta would switch to supports buying tons of wards prelevel 9 and never building any items. That's why they changed it to only 3 green wards on the map.
What if we introduce a consumable item that lets the drinker see wards and lets him control the entire vision of the map until the item expires or the user dies? We can give it to the guy who roams the most on the team...like the jungler.
Riot pls hire me now.
Oracles is waay too strong when you are ahead because it effectively means you can permaclear wards around objectives. And useless when behind because you just get focused and die even easier than normal because you are spending 400 gold every death on an item that gives no stats. If it gave stats everyone would get it because it makes no sense to not have it if it's a statistically good choice on a tank or something similar.
Which is why its gone. Or was this a joke i missed. Probably the latter. Sorry.
I agree, but come to a different result, because IMO oracles was 90% of the S2 jungle problems.
I don't agree that laners using smite&jungle items is a big issue. I mean if every laners was doing it, then yeah, but when we have like few top laners and couple of specific mid laners that benefit from it, no big deal. Of course they should not be superior to any other laner that doen't use smite
On July 13 2015 16:45 M2 wrote: I don't agree that laners using smite&jungle items is a big issue. I mean if every laners was doing it, then yeah, but when we have like few top laners and couple of specific mid laners that benefit from it, no big deal. Of course they should not be superior to any other laner that doen't use smite
My problem with lane smite, is that it is so champion specific, and that it defeats most of the purposes of jungle items (you know, junglers taking jungle camps, jungle diversity, etc) within an individual game. And it ends up making those lane champions very jungle-item dependent (or the jungle item is just ruined) which is bad for the games' long term health.
Similarly to before, there is no reason, in your reasoning, that there couldn't just be a laning champion that is balanced around being good at taking jungle camps instead. Particularly considering Riot's 3 years of proving my POV to be correct...
My issue with lane smite is that solo laners, by the way the game is constructed, will pretty much always be a higher level than their jungler if the game doesn't take a horribly bad turn. As the seasons go by and Riot continually shaves off power of the jungler to destroy a lane through proper play, the jungler position identity becomes more and more about neutral objectives. But all of the sudden they don't even have the best smite on the team. I actually saw one game when I was doing research for builds where the jungler had the 3rd best smite on the team. A jungler should have to play an objective specialist like Nunu or Chogath to be able to perform their positions core tenants. Let's also not forget that when a Kalista is on your team you can kiss smiting stuff goodbye because Rend scales to infinity and beyond.
Not to mention that that shitter Ezreal is getting the damage conversion nerfed off of Runglaive. -.-
On July 13 2015 21:17 Gahlo wrote: My issue with lane smite is that solo laners, by the way the game is constructed, will pretty much always be a higher level than their jungler if the game doesn't take a horribly bad turn. As the seasons go by and Riot continually shaves off power of the jungler to destroy a lane through proper play, the jungler position identity becomes more and more about neutral objectives. But all of the sudden they don't even have the best smite on the team. I actually saw one game when I was doing research for builds where the jungler had the 3rd best smite on the team. A jungler should have to play an objective specialist like Nunu or Chogath to be able to perform their positions core tenants. Let's also not forget that when a Kalista is on your team you can kiss smiting stuff goodbye because Rend scales to infinity and beyond.
Not to mention that that shitter Ezreal is getting the damage conversion nerfed off of Runglaive. -.-
maybe in pro play but definitely not anywhere else.Your smite doing 50 less damage doesn't matter if you don't suck and can time it with your other abilities.
On July 13 2015 21:17 Gahlo wrote: My issue with lane smite is that solo laners, by the way the game is constructed, will pretty much always be a higher level than their jungler if the game doesn't take a horribly bad turn. As the seasons go by and Riot continually shaves off power of the jungler to destroy a lane through proper play, the jungler position identity becomes more and more about neutral objectives. But all of the sudden they don't even have the best smite on the team. I actually saw one game when I was doing research for builds where the jungler had the 3rd best smite on the team. A jungler should have to play an objective specialist like Nunu or Chogath to be able to perform their positions core tenants. Let's also not forget that when a Kalista is on your team you can kiss smiting stuff goodbye because Rend scales to infinity and beyond.
Not to mention that that shitter Ezreal is getting the damage conversion nerfed off of Runglaive. -.-
maybe in pro play but definitely not anywhere else.Your smite doing 50 less damage doesn't matter if you don't suck and can time it with your other abilities.
On July 13 2015 21:17 Gahlo wrote: My issue with lane smite is that solo laners, by the way the game is constructed, will pretty much always be a higher level than their jungler if the game doesn't take a horribly bad turn. As the seasons go by and Riot continually shaves off power of the jungler to destroy a lane through proper play, the jungler position identity becomes more and more about neutral objectives. But all of the sudden they don't even have the best smite on the team. I actually saw one game when I was doing research for builds where the jungler had the 3rd best smite on the team. A jungler should have to play an objective specialist like Nunu or Chogath to be able to perform their positions core tenants. Let's also not forget that when a Kalista is on your team you can kiss smiting stuff goodbye because Rend scales to infinity and beyond.
Not to mention that that shitter Ezreal is getting the damage conversion nerfed off of Runglaive. -.-
maybe in pro play but definitely not anywhere else.Your smite doing 50 less damage doesn't matter if you don't suck and can time it with your other abilities.
Because laners only have auto attacks...
Out of the hecarim/fizz/mundo/sion/diana the only one who can outdamage you is hecarim and he has to use his ultimate on the objective(diana can too but she has to use her entire combo...).Don't see how is this a problem in any way either?Why is it a problem that other players can secure an objective anyway?Lol people complaining about the junglers having no impact on the game are hilarious.Kalista rend is just stupid no arguing there.
Not to mention that lately the smite top lane isn't being played as much.Rumble/maokai/gnar/ryze/naut/shen are much more relevant lately.
Just nitpicking, but with Cleaver's minimal damage threshold Mundo could easily add ~300 damage to his smite. I dunno if it's applied before or after MR though (I assume before, it doesn't show on monsters because they don't have MR anyway).
On July 13 2015 22:28 Alaric wrote: Just nitpicking, but with Cleaver's minimal damage threshold Mundo could easily add ~300 damage to his smite. I dunno if it's applied before or after MR though (I assume before, it doesn't show on monsters because they don't have MR anyway).
he also has to land it and has to walk through your entire team without getting ccd to get in range since he doesnt have flash
Getting rid of smite to replace it with a jungler item and another jungle-only summoner spell sounds... completely pointless.
Smite's inherent to the game at this point. The whole securing thing on neutral monsters is interesting regardless of it's a laner doing it, or Kalista, or just the junglers in most games. Removing that feels like more trouble than the worth of what you may possibly get out of it. If you want junglers to have summoner spell choice (which I don't see as that important, honestly, but if you did) you should probably push for Flash changes. Would honestly be the easier path.
We should just go back to warrior enchantment junglers only it was a simplier time. Much easier when all I have to do was choose between 3 or 4 guys in 90 percent of my games. All this diversity is ruining league
Flash on a 40 second CD would also be totally broken with any kind of range. You could probably make it only jump over small walls and it'd be still be extremely good.
Interesting thing about Flash is how many champs can justify not taking it. And why. Shaco has an inherent blink and works on getting quick kills, Hecarim/Shyv have a decently low CD dash ult and make strong use of TP/Cinderhulk. They're also both super safe pre-6 (Kass needs Flash pre-6.) Fizz gets a lot of lane kills and has his E. Leads me to believe one get out of jail free or playmaking card is necessary, but two... maybe not so much.
I often thought how would league looks like without flash. Definitely it won't be 100% replaced by ghost. Most likely we will see a lot of different combinations: ignite/exhaust, ghost/ignite, heal/barrier. heal/ignite and etc. and etc. Not sure that it won't impact the balance of the game too much, but for sure it will make summoners more diverse
On July 12 2015 06:41 Purge wrote: You people are still going on about MF's boob size? ffs just move on - this is all so cringy.
Alaric just play things that are fun dude. If so many things annoy you this patch then dont play on it. Its not like you're missing much - 5.14 is gonna be so much more fun its insane. Or stop being so overly sensitive.
In other news, I love the AP item overhaul. I cant remember the last time i felt item paths were this flexible. Its awesome. Orianna is so much fun to play now. Anyone messed around with the more situational items (i.e. WotA/Nashors) yet? So much unexplored depth now :D
Its very fun to play AP now, but also makes playing ADC so frustrating now that AP has better/cooler item actives and significantly better build paths.
You gotta be shitting me. Im assuming you're one of those glass is half-empty type people. Stop being a stick in the mud and tell me what creative shit you managed to come up with this patch and how you're fighting against other peoples crazy shit.
??? I'm just saying Ap itemization was already more creative and fun, and now the buildups are also less frustrating.
Also my creative idea is eliminating jungle items, which is way more creative than making NLR reasonably priced.
Yeah i was getting a bit stir-crazy in the house yesterday and went a bit overboard with the sass. Apologies, but the whining here can be a bit ludicrous and it gets to me sometimes.
Otherwise the jungle items are an integral part of the game - they gate gold income from laners and creates the oppurtunity costs necessary for junglers to get a decent average income ingame. Oppurtunity as an item slot, as gold investment, oppurtunity cost as a stat bundle or playstyle enhancer. Admittedly currently the latter of those is not working right b/c cinderhulk is heads and above the most useful, but their basic concept is a core mechanic.
Here is why I disagree with you:
A) They have a summoner spell, smite, that should be capable of doing all of those things you describe.
B) The first problem with jungle items is that you either make junglers and jungle items shit (relegating junglers to 2nd class citizens), or laners buy them (and now take smite) and gain advantages in exactly the way that Riot was trying to fix after S2. Thus defeating the purpose of the jungle item.
C) Because a second (arguably first, but these are the 2 most important goals of post S2 jungle changes) is jungle diversity, you need to have parity among the jungle items, or create a single jungle item that makes all types of junglers equal. (As a reminder, the S2 finals patch had more junglers played competitively than any subsequent patch, often more than entire seasons spanning many patches). Typically, the jungle meta is dictated by what is the "op" jungle item of the day. It also eliminates from possible jungle play all champions that dont synergize well with a jungle item.
Because I'm tired, and might have been unclear. Jungle items suck because: They reduce jungle diversity (AP vs. AD. vs. Tank vs. Bruiser, etc), fuck up the lanes, and relegate junglers to a second class status.
On July 13 2015 08:13 Ketara wrote: Sightstone is maybe okay.
Is it? What would a game without any vision tools but trinkets (no greens or pinks) play like? I mean the greater stealth totem is pretty much a sightstone lite anyway. Maybe buff red and blue trinkets and force teams to make meaningful tradeoffs. If you want loads of vision you have to sacrifice denial or ranged scanning. Giving supports/junglers another item slot is just gravy.
Vision is too homogenous imo. There's two sighstones on every team and hyper engage comps are required to start fights because both teams are basically maphacking.
The meta would switch to supports buying tons of wards prelevel 9 and never building any items. That's why they changed it to only 3 green wards on the map.
What if we introduce a consumable item that lets the drinker see wards and lets him control the entire vision of the map until the item expires or the user dies? We can give it to the guy who roams the most on the team...like the jungler.
Riot pls hire me now.
Oracles is waay too strong when you are ahead because it effectively means you can permaclear wards around objectives. And useless when behind because you just get focused and die even easier than normal because you are spending 400 gold every death on an item that gives no stats. If it gave stats everyone would get it because it makes no sense to not have it if it's a statistically good choice on a tank or something similar.
Which is why its gone. Or was this a joke i missed. Probably the latter. Sorry.
I agree, but come to a different result, because IMO oracles was 90% of the S2 jungle problems.
Again, they exist to mitigate laner influence on jungler gold by making it suboptimal for laners to take a jungle camp in every scenario where the jungler can reasonably take the same camp (i.e. reach it to kill it bf it respawns). All of the other shit (smite types, enchantments) is fluff to add depth to the jungler role and to create mechanisms by which to balance jungler types against each other (because they have to commit to the item slot to maximize their gold gain irrespective of the jungler type). So i personally dont have a problem with jungler items, because this solution is the best solution imo to the jungler dilemma and gives a modicum of depth to the role that didnt exist before, while also opening up the champ pool.
All y'all are just salty that laners are taking smite, but if this wasnt the case you'd all be salty that we only saw 3 jungle champions and no depth to the pool at all. At least in the current scenario you can see Olaf, Zac, Lee Sin, Jarvan etc all situationally in comps designed to exploit their strengths, which is closer to an idealistic level of balance. Not to mention that now hypercarries in all positions have value because dominant laners cannot cruise control through teams and now fall off, Top Lane carry champs are viable because the burden of damage soaking can be put onto another role (Yay Smeb Riven Penta!), and assassins cannot perform the role of mages anymore in teamcomps because they dont have the ability to kill tanks nearly as effectively. Cinderhulk and this jungle meta has been the best thing that happened to league in years.
The only real criticism that i see is Gahlo's smite complaint, which is valid. But it because laners are tied to their lanes to maximize gold gain they cannot really use Smite's objective control to its fullest extent for 9/10ths of the game for example in buff invades, no-tp dragon contests, counterjungling and of course just clearing your own damn jungle. They always have a trade off to using smite (laning) where a jungler just does not. Not to mention that they also have a shit summoner for most of the early game and if you cannot abuse their awful laning phase then you take a top lane tank of your own, which mutes a large portion of top-lane smites impact.
In the mid-late game i see your point that it sucks, but I think its a relatively fair tradeoff that creates a pretty damning power trough in the early game.
Imo when they're done fixing up Warrior enchant we'll see teams abuse weak early game teams more. As it is, Cinderhulk is just too damn strong and nerfing it more than it has been nerfed is a bit unreasonable, so Warrior has to go up to compensate, as does Devourer. I dont see anyone playing out the devourer route though (im praying for ClearLove to prove me wrong) so all of the opportunity cost has to come from warrior.
Safe to say I think jungle items are fine, smite as a spell for utility is fine, and after things are balanced better enchants will be fine. Im not sure what I want from Riot right now other than Some Azir nerfs, Fiora Rework faster, Zil double Q to be a bit more reliable on a single target and for Assassins to maybe be a bit stronger (not much, but enough to see situational play). Otherwise Vayne and Olaf are viable picks again so Im happy :D
On July 13 2015 23:55 M2 wrote: I often thought how would league looks like without flash. Definitely it won't be 100% replaced by ghost. Most likely we will see a lot of different combinations: ignite/exhaust, ghost/ignite, heal/barrier. heal/ignite and etc. and etc. Not sure that it won't impact the balance of the game too much, but for sure it will make summoners more diverse
Naa, I think any champion that is squishy would get nerfed into the ground, assassins run rampant and that taking flash out of the game removes a ton of depth from champ combos (no more tauntflash, condemn repositions, etc). The whole reason that we have cheap, low cd dashes in the game is that you can counter them at least to some extent with flash. If this goes through you gotta give Anivia, Zyra and their ilk a speed tier shift at the very least, and udyr, nasus and their ilk more cc redux because shits gonna get hairy real quick on either extreme. Im not down for that personally, its gonna mess up so many things that its insane.
What i think would be a more interesting thought experiment is that at this point just giving everyone flash as an innate and then opening up the second slot again that way, instead of rebalancing the whole game for the existence of flash. All champions are balanced around flash anyway. Now that im looking at it though you would probably just see ghost replacing flash in all instances in this scenario, or at least heal/X and ghost/X, being optimal, with Exh/X seeing limited viability. is that really a better meta than the current one? im not entirely sure.
On July 14 2015 05:35 Purge wrote: Again, they exist to mitigate laner influence on jungler gold by making it suboptimal for laners to take a jungle camp in every scenario where the jungler can reasonably take the same camp (i.e. reach it to kill it bf it respawns). All of the other shit (smite types, enchantments) is fluff to add depth to the jungler role and to create mechanisms by which to balance jungler types against each other (because they have to commit to the item slot to maximize their gold gain irrespective of the jungler type). So i personally dont have a problem with jungler items, because this solution is the best solution imo to the jungler dilemma and gives a modicum of depth to the role that didnt exist before, while also opening up the champ pool.
Why not just put the mitigating of lane influence on jungle gold right onto smite? As stated before, that jungle items expand the jungle champiopn pool is objectively false, because it shrank immediately starting in S3, and has never recovered to even 50% of S2 levels of diversity. Which was pre-jungle item.
On July 14 2015 05:35 Purge wrote: All y'all are just salty that laners are taking smite, but if this wasnt the case you'd all be salty that we only saw 3 jungle champions and no depth to the pool at all. At least in the current scenario you can see Olaf, Zac, Lee Sin, Jarvan etc all situationally in comps designed to exploit their strengths, which is closer to an idealistic level of balance. Not to mention that now hypercarries in all positions have value because dominant laners cannot cruise control through teams and now fall off, Top Lane carry champs are viable because the burden of damage soaking can be put onto another role (Yay Smeb Riven Penta!), and assassins cannot perform the role of mages anymore in teamcomps because they dont have the ability to kill tanks nearly as effectively. Cinderhulk and this jungle meta has been the best thing that happened to league in years.
Vlad, Jayce, Irelia, Jax, Darius, Nidalee, and Riven all played toplane, on one patch competitively pre-jungle items.
Literally, what you are complaining about is the shitty S3 and S4 jungle items, and are using their shittiness and the 3-4 champion jungle pool then to justify a slightly better situation we have now. Laners taking smite defeats the primary reason for jungle items to exist because, the point (that you said) is to "mitigate laner influence on jungler gold" if they can't even do that, they are just creating needless complexity (that Riot has systemically failed to account for).
On July 14 2015 05:35 Purge wrote: The only real criticism that i see is Gahlo's smite complaint, which is valid. But it because laners are tied to their lanes to maximize gold gain they cannot really use Smite's objective control to its fullest extent for 9/10ths of the game for example in buff invades, no-tp dragon contests, counterjungling and of course just clearing your own damn jungle. They always have a trade off to using smite (laning) where a jungler just does not. Not to mention that they also have a shit summoner for most of the early game and if you cannot abuse their awful laning phase then you take a top lane tank of your own, which mutes a large portion of top-lane smites impact.
In the mid-late game i see your point that it sucks, but I think its a relatively fair tradeoff that creates a pretty damning power trough in the early game.
Probably, I don't care about the objective part.
On July 14 2015 05:35 Purge wrote: Imo when they're done fixing up Warrior enchant we'll see teams abuse weak early game teams more. As it is, Cinderhulk is just too damn strong and nerfing it more than it has been nerfed is a bit unreasonable, so Warrior has to go up to compensate, as does Devourer. I dont see anyone playing out the devourer route though (im praying for ClearLove to prove me wrong) so all of the opportunity cost has to come from warrior.
I'm seeing mostly only Gragas/RekSai using Cinderhulk. Obviously they are a tier, then Eve, then the Nunu/Nidalee/Lee/Ekko which makes it seem that there is already a huge earlygame focus in jungle picks.
Why not just put the mitigating of lane influence on jungle gold right onto smite? As stated before, that jungle items expand the jungle champiopn pool is objectively false, because it shrank immediately starting in S3, and has never recovered to even 50% of S2 levels of diversity. Which was pre-jungle item.
I dont see the point to aspiring to S2 jungle diversity because junglers had next to no gold by comparison to now and were entirely dependent on ganking results. If we go back to that meta junglers are the poorest role on the team because now supports have more gold from gp10 items. Whats more, i Im actually fairly sure that S3 is just an optimized form of S2 and that we'd just see the best junglers who function under low gold totals happen. Like things that made tanks work in that meta (Double gp10, HoG) arent coming back. So im not sure what it is exactly you want to happen there.
Putting the gold onto the smite doesnt stop laners from getting smite, it encourages them to get it. They get it and they get a free % increase in gold gain from jungling. Assuming you arent going to remove smite buffs, you still see it in top lane to help tanks push with krug turret buff and gromp poison. Ignite is useless to them and if they can get away without having flash it gives them all of the current bonuses that they dont have to pay to get, + more gold and an extra item slot compared to live.
Probably, I don't care about the objective part.
Dont see how you can not care about the objective part when its a core gameplay aspect in the mid to late game. Says alot.
I'm seeing mostly only Gragas/RekSai using Cinderhulk. Obviously they are a tier, then Eve, then the Nunu/Nidalee/Lee/Ekko which makes it seem that there is already a huge earlygame focus in jungle picks.
Olaf and Zac arent bad. After Elise's changes sink in she should be meta again or they'll keep buffing her till she is. Champs like Rammus and Skarner wont ever be meta unless something radically changes or Devourer is godly on him (in Skarners case). Nocturne in specific circumstances is very nice :D Ive seen QG run an epic Nocturne comp that was fun to watch, tho i think it requires putting priority on jungler pick in draft so you'll probably rarely see him given that mid lane is so important to counter. And Diana needs a rework and Cho is better AP.
I miss anyone? Right now i think jungler picks are skewed really heavily because Rek and Gragas are crowding out a ton of viable picks (esp Rek, she's like Lee Sin 2.0 sometimes), but there is space in the meta for more champs when they get put in their appropriate place. Im not sure Riot knows how to appropriately balance Rek tho.
Honestly with the ancilliary effects of Cinderhulk being a paradigm shift in midlane picks and increased botlane viabilties im not sure i personally care if we only have 3-4 junglers until Rek and Gragas get toned down. Its a better meta than S3, S4 and S2 imo and it has all the tools we need to see improvement. But thats just me.
And thats just pro play. There is a ton of shit that is viable outside of pro play, none of this has almost any bearing on that.
On July 14 2015 06:02 DiracMonopole wrote: I have to say, jungle vayne with devourer is absolutely hilarious. At one point I was able to just point blank brawl a shyvana.
Why not just put the mitigating of lane influence on jungle gold right onto smite? As stated before, that jungle items expand the jungle champiopn pool is objectively false, because it shrank immediately starting in S3, and has never recovered to even 50% of S2 levels of diversity. Which was pre-jungle item.
I dont see the point to aspiring to S2 jungle diversity because junglers had next to no gold by comparison to now and were entirely dependent on ganking results. If we go back to that meta junglers are the poorest role on the team because now supports have more gold from gp10 items. Whats more, i Im actually fairly sure that S3 is just an optimized form of S2 and that we'd just see the best junglers who function under low gold totals happen. Like things that made tanks work in that meta (Double gp10, HoG) arent coming back. So im not sure what it is exactly you want to happen there.
Putting the gold onto the smite doesnt stop laners from getting smite, it encourages them to get it. They get it and they get a free % increase in gold gain from jungling. Assuming you arent going to remove smite buffs, you still see it in top lane to help tanks push with krug turret buff and gromp poison. Ignite is useless to them and if they can get away without having flash it gives them all of the current bonuses that they dont have to pay to get, + more gold and an extra item slot compared to live.
I'm seeing mostly only Gragas/RekSai using Cinderhulk. Obviously they are a tier, then Eve, then the Nunu/Nidalee/Lee/Ekko which makes it seem that there is already a huge earlygame focus in jungle picks.
Olaf and Zac arent bad. After Elise's changes sink in she should be meta again or they'll keep buffing her till she is. Champs like Rammus and Skarner wont ever be meta unless something radically changes or Devourer is godly on him (in Skarners case). Nocturne in specific circumstances is very nice :D Ive seen QG run an epic Nocturne comp that was fun to watch, tho i think it requires putting priority on jungler pick in draft so you'll probably rarely see him given that mid lane is so important to counter. And Diana needs a rework and Cho is better AP.
I miss anyone? Right now i think jungler picks are skewed really heavily because Rek and Gragas are crowding out a ton of viable picks (esp Rek, she's like Lee Sin 2.0 sometimes), but there is space in the meta for more champs when they get put in their appropriate place. Im not sure Riot knows how to appropriately balance Rek tho.
Honestly with the ancilliary effects of Cinderhulk being a paradigm shift in midlane picks and increased botlane viabilties im not sure i personally care if we only have 3-4 junglers until Rek and Gragas get toned down. Its a better meta than S3, S4 and S2 imo and it has all the tools we need to see improvement. But thats just me.
And thats just pro play. There is a ton of shit that is viable outside of pro play, none of this has almost any bearing on that.
So to start, S2 jungle gold was low partially because the gold was low (fixed by putting gold on smite, if needed) and also because of Oracles murdering your gold pool. Sometimes, if they didn't die, a jungler would end up with a healthy amount of gold because it wasn't, basically, a 400G tax every 5 minutes. That tax is why they became a 2nd support, because they had such low gold amounts, that they couldnt effectively utilize or farm up more gold.
I would certainly eliminate the smite buffs, thats another stupid thing that makes early jungle routes more static and adds another needless complexity to the jungle that riot can't balance. So once again, can put the gold on smite, if its too low.
I don't care for the objective part because I think the whole concept of stealing an objective should be removed. Super annoying ingame or watching a game. At the very least, if teams want to dedicate extra summoner slots to buff control and objective control, I think that is a fine idea. The problem currently is that the lane champs that gain that advantage don't sacrifice enough for it. Thats a tweakable problem. Not systemic or anything.
I agree that Rek Sai crowds out a lot of junglers, which has happened since S3, usually that being Lee or Elise. But if she wasn't, history tells us someone else likely would. Olaf is fine, clearly T2 though, and I haven't seen ZAC be anything interesting or that Nocturne game.
Jungle's probably got more champs in it than ever before, competitively. It's just that no one cares to ban Rek/Grag in a majority of games because mid and ADC are easier to focus.
Smite buffs are probably the most successful part of the whole jungle rework. Every single buff gets used and at variable, clearly delineated times. I can't see a reason to give a shit about there only being two/maybe three first-clear paths.
On July 14 2015 06:02 DiracMonopole wrote: I have to say, jungle vayne with devourer is absolutely hilarious. At one point I was able to just point blank brawl a shyvana.
As someone who plays immobile mages. Fuck that new Luden's holy shit. It's shitting so hard on Viktor, in that last game there were both a Kog and a Diana. Hard to get close to Kog, hard to get away from Diana (not to say impossible).
That 10% MS is more than a pair of boots, even post-reductions (I think when I finally completed mine I went from 387 to 423 MS I think?). That's bonkers. I'm basically forced to buy it if anyone on the other team has it, just to keep up.
Kog just hit his Rylai's. The guy's really, really bad (we're losing a game while outplaying everyone because they picked Ezreal and Renekton into AP Kog, Jinx and Gnar, basically), but once he got Rylai's it stopped mattering at all. Going from 15% to 40% slow is pretty ridiculous, and makes it impossible for him to miss any one skillshot. Even with a dash or stuff, he's going to hit at least 2 Rs for any spell hitting a target. The current patch hits LCS next week, right? I'm really curious to see who they'll use again with the items changes, but that new Rylai's on AP Kog is going to be bonkers.
Why not just put the mitigating of lane influence on jungle gold right onto smite? As stated before, that jungle items expand the jungle champiopn pool is objectively false, because it shrank immediately starting in S3, and has never recovered to even 50% of S2 levels of diversity. Which was pre-jungle item.
I dont see the point to aspiring to S2 jungle diversity because junglers had next to no gold by comparison to now and were entirely dependent on ganking results. If we go back to that meta junglers are the poorest role on the team because now supports have more gold from gp10 items. Whats more, i Im actually fairly sure that S3 is just an optimized form of S2 and that we'd just see the best junglers who function under low gold totals happen. Like things that made tanks work in that meta (Double gp10, HoG) arent coming back. So im not sure what it is exactly you want to happen there.
Putting the gold onto the smite doesnt stop laners from getting smite, it encourages them to get it. They get it and they get a free % increase in gold gain from jungling. Assuming you arent going to remove smite buffs, you still see it in top lane to help tanks push with krug turret buff and gromp poison. Ignite is useless to them and if they can get away without having flash it gives them all of the current bonuses that they dont have to pay to get, + more gold and an extra item slot compared to live.
Probably, I don't care about the objective part.
Dont see how you can not care about the objective part when its a core gameplay aspect in the mid to late game. Says alot.
I'm seeing mostly only Gragas/RekSai using Cinderhulk. Obviously they are a tier, then Eve, then the Nunu/Nidalee/Lee/Ekko which makes it seem that there is already a huge earlygame focus in jungle picks.
Olaf and Zac arent bad. After Elise's changes sink in she should be meta again or they'll keep buffing her till she is. Champs like Rammus and Skarner wont ever be meta unless something radically changes or Devourer is godly on him (in Skarners case). Nocturne in specific circumstances is very nice :D Ive seen QG run an epic Nocturne comp that was fun to watch, tho i think it requires putting priority on jungler pick in draft so you'll probably rarely see him given that mid lane is so important to counter. And Diana needs a rework and Cho is better AP.
I miss anyone? Right now i think jungler picks are skewed really heavily because Rek and Gragas are crowding out a ton of viable picks (esp Rek, she's like Lee Sin 2.0 sometimes), but there is space in the meta for more champs when they get put in their appropriate place. Im not sure Riot knows how to appropriately balance Rek tho.
Honestly with the ancilliary effects of Cinderhulk being a paradigm shift in midlane picks and increased botlane viabilties im not sure i personally care if we only have 3-4 junglers until Rek and Gragas get toned down. Its a better meta than S3, S4 and S2 imo and it has all the tools we need to see improvement. But thats just me.
And thats just pro play. There is a ton of shit that is viable outside of pro play, none of this has almost any bearing on that.
So to start, S2 jungle gold was low partially because the gold was low (fixed by putting gold on smite, if needed) and also because of Oracles murdering your gold pool. Sometimes, if they didn't die, a jungler would end up with a healthy amount of gold because it wasn't, basically, a 400G tax every 5 minutes. That tax is why they became a 2nd support, because they had such low gold amounts, that they couldnt effectively utilize or farm up more gold.
I would certainly eliminate the smite buffs, thats another stupid thing that makes early jungle routes more static and adds another needless complexity to the jungle that riot can't balance. So once again, can put the gold on smite, if its too low.
I don't care for the objective part because I think the whole concept of stealing an objective should be removed. Super annoying ingame or watching a game. At the very least, if teams want to dedicate extra summoner slots to buff control and objective control, I think that is a fine idea. The problem currently is that the lane champs that gain that advantage don't sacrifice enough for it. Thats a tweakable problem. Not systemic or anything.
I agree that Rek Sai crowds out a lot of junglers, which has happened since S3, usually that being Lee or Elise. But if she wasn't, history tells us someone else likely would. Olaf is fine, clearly T2 though, and I haven't seen ZAC be anything interesting or that Nocturne game.
I think we agree to disagree at this point. You want things to go back to a pure S2 form of the game (well without oracles) and Im telling you not only is it never gonna happen because that meta was awful but we are moving towards a meta that is much more rich and full of things to players to do and play with. If you are gonna remove complaints about objective control your argument I think you're hamstringing yourself by trivializing your own argument tbh. but I digress.
On July 14 2015 08:22 Alaric wrote: As someone who plays immobile mages. Fuck that new Luden's holy shit. It's shitting so hard on Viktor, in that last game there were both a Kog and a Diana. Hard to get close to Kog, hard to get away from Diana (not to say impossible).
That 10% MS is more than a pair of boots, even post-reductions (I think when I finally completed mine I went from 387 to 423 MS I think?). That's bonkers. I'm basically forced to buy it if anyone on the other team has it, just to keep up.
Kog just hit his Rylai's. The guy's really, really bad (we're losing a game while outplaying everyone because they picked Ezreal and Renekton into AP Kog, Jinx and Gnar, basically), but once he got Rylai's it stopped mattering at all. Going from 15% to 40% slow is pretty ridiculous, and makes it impossible for him to miss any one skillshot. Even with a dash or stuff, he's going to hit at least 2 Rs for any spell hitting a target. The current patch hits LCS next week, right? I'm really curious to see who they'll use again with the items changes, but that new Rylai's on AP Kog is going to be bonkers.
I love this Ludens - its just about the best roaming item for the midlane. Awesome item :D
Kog in all honesty is probably broken as shit right now, i could see that being a thing. That and yo you only need it against poke champs otherwise you shouldnt need it if the other laner has it in an absolute sense b/c if you build dcap you just deal more damage.
New Luden's design is actually kind of a cool item now that it doesn't fit into every build ever. Also it makes Sivir weaker by proxy so I'm all over that shit.
Re: Luden's. Depends. You need it against assassins if you can't just gtfo because they can just walk in range and aggro you. And if they're poke champs and you're lower ranged you need it if you're not LB or something because you won't get in range either. Bleh.
On July 14 2015 08:22 Alaric wrote: As someone who plays immobile mages. Fuck that new Luden's holy shit. It's shitting so hard on Viktor, in that last game there were both a Kog and a Diana. Hard to get close to Kog, hard to get away from Diana (not to say impossible).
That 10% MS is more than a pair of boots, even post-reductions (I think when I finally completed mine I went from 387 to 423 MS I think?). That's bonkers. I'm basically forced to buy it if anyone on the other team has it, just to keep up.
Kog just hit his Rylai's. The guy's really, really bad (we're losing a game while outplaying everyone because they picked Ezreal and Renekton into AP Kog, Jinx and Gnar, basically), but once he got Rylai's it stopped mattering at all. Going from 15% to 40% slow is pretty ridiculous, and makes it impossible for him to miss any one skillshot. Even with a dash or stuff, he's going to hit at least 2 Rs for any spell hitting a target. The current patch hits LCS next week, right? I'm really curious to see who they'll use again with the items changes, but that new Rylai's on AP Kog is going to be bonkers.
I used to diamond in S1/S2, and low diamond in S3 (iirc). I took a long break and have been playing again, but got placed in low gold. I main ADC; anyone in a similar boat or with a smurf and up for duoQ? I'll be on a good amount the coming days. IGN is Plain Skill on EUW.
I've been really feeling Graves as a counter pick to devour jungles. If you keep your farm up you can put them at critical health before they can get on you thanks to how greedy most of them build. At first I was thinking Vayne and she works ok too but the front loaded damage is really handy vs. what they want to do to you.
That was only true when you had a cinderhulk tank to deal with, this is specifically a counter pick to a tankless team.
if they have 1 tank it's still decent because you have RLB active to help you chew thru one tank if you go the full skill damage build, which I do considering the reasoning behind the pick. I only think Graves starts to truely suck a D when his ult tickles the entire team.
On July 14 2015 23:33 Slusher wrote: That was only true when you had a cinderhulk tank to deal with, this is specifically a counter pick to a tankless team.
if they have 1 tank it's still decent because you have RLB active to help you chew thru one tank if you go the full skill damage build, which I do considering the reasoning behind the pick. I only think Graves starts to truely suck a D when his ult tickles the entire team.
playing graves sounds like an awful idea, 2 of the best unbanned devourer junglers (fizz, warwick) will fuck you before you can even do 1 AA in that range. caitlyn and vayne on the other hand are both incredibly aggravating to deal with. i see those 2 adcs in almost every game at high diamond currently
Keep in mind that Devourer has been played 9x more (and it's just one iteration of the build), so the winrate is likely lowered by all the new players jumping on Kayle train, as opposed to character specialists doing the runeglaive.
To actually answer your question no, I haven't, but I can't imagine runeglaive build being better than dełałer.
Can anyone advise me on jungle Kayle runes/masteries? I've been trying several combinations lately but I get so low during my first clear that I can't even do 2 buffs before I have to back.
On July 15 2015 03:22 Koenig99 wrote: Can anyone advise me on jungle Kayle runes/masteries? I've been trying several combinations lately but I get so low during my first clear that I can't even do 2 buffs before I have to back.
just use the blue buff thing where you take no damage.
On July 15 2015 03:22 Koenig99 wrote: Can anyone advise me on jungle Kayle runes/masteries? I've been trying several combinations lately but I get so low during my first clear that I can't even do 2 buffs before I have to back.
On July 15 2015 03:22 Koenig99 wrote: Can anyone advise me on jungle Kayle runes/masteries? I've been trying several combinations lately but I get so low during my first clear that I can't even do 2 buffs before I have to back.
Thanks for this. How does the kiting work now? I found that it's been difficult ever since they changed the leash system and I mess it up for often than not. Also, I just played a game where I started Krugs and found that to be much easier than Gromp start. Also, is there a reason for Runaan's before BorK? I keep going Bork after Nashors but will try Runaans third item.
On July 15 2015 03:22 Koenig99 wrote: Can anyone advise me on jungle Kayle runes/masteries? I've been trying several combinations lately but I get so low during my first clear that I can't even do 2 buffs before I have to back.
Thanks for this. How does the kiting work now? I found that it's been difficult ever since they changed the leash system and I mess it up for often than not. Also, I just played a game where I started Krugs and found that to be much easier than Gromp start. Also, is there a reason for Runaan's before BorK? I keep going Bork after Nashors but will try Runaans third item.
Should be using that thread...
Kiting just means you move back or to the side during your own attack animation cooldown. You'll take less damage than if you were to just stand in one place and take every one of Blue Golem's attacks.
Krugs is going to be easier clear for someone like Kayle because you're spec'd hard in AS and you get more Krug stuns. No surprise there.
Runaan is core because of the AoE proc. It's by far the biggest DPS spike you'll get out of the three AS items you get. In general, Nashor's is for the 20% CDR, Runaan's is for AoE, BotRK is for life steal, slow, and late game shred. You can fit in an early Vamp Scepter/Cutlass if you want but as I mentioned before, CDR is king, then (AS) damage.
I have pretty shitty PvE but both gromp start and crugs start full clears take me the same ammount of time. Also Botrk and ruunan's instead of rabadon's trigger me.
TF seems like a terrible user of Rylais slow though. His cards are AOE, not easy to hit, and in battle you are pulling Red/Gold (hopefully).
PLUS, if I were to see a good idea for new Rylais on TF it would be as an anti-dive item in concjuntion with Zhonyas (and maybe abyssal) so I don't get instagibbed by like, an Irelia-Rengar tagteam.
Luden's, Lichbane, Cap, Void, Zhonya's seems like a nobrainer on TF, really. Rylai's is for either Liandry's synergy on long-fighting mages (think Viktor/Vel'koz/Brand) or on mages that need the health/slow to not die immediately (Cass)
I've never been a huge fan of Luden on TF, I feel like his pre-luden core of Void - hat - zhonya - cd item - lich fit his kit too well. I can get ditching the 20% cdr item but for me I'm not a fan.
On July 15 2015 05:21 krndandaman wrote: botrk/runaan's is definitely better than deathcap on current kayle.
also anyone want to enlighten me on tf? some TF main I met on soloq was adamant that zhonyas was an overrated item on TF and that it was completely unnecessary on 6 item TF's. according to him, ludens/deathcap/rylais > zhonyas by far. I was skeptical but he said he's been maining TF since s3 and has 500 tf games this season at d3.
when I asked for reasoning he just simply would tell us to stfu when we were genuinely curious about his reasoning ( he wasn't playing TF in the game, he was criticizing our TF's build)
am I missing something here or is he just a deluded tf main? i'm pretty sure zhonyas is one of the best items on TF and absolutely deserves a spot in a 6 item build even with all the ap item changes.
he is a tf main since s3 has 500 games this season in diamond 3 that should tell you enough about how smart he is
On July 15 2015 05:21 krndandaman wrote: botrk/runaan's is definitely better than deathcap on current kayle.
also anyone want to enlighten me on tf? some TF main I met on soloq was adamant that zhonyas was an overrated item on TF and that it was completely unnecessary on 6 item TF's. according to him, ludens/deathcap/rylais > zhonyas by far. I was skeptical but he said he's been maining TF since s3 and has 500 tf games this season at d3.
when I asked for reasoning he just simply would tell us to stfu when we were genuinely curious about his reasoning ( he wasn't playing TF in the game, he was criticizing our TF's build)
am I missing something here or is he just a deluded tf main? i'm pretty sure zhonyas is one of the best items on TF and absolutely deserves a spot in a 6 item build even with all the ap item changes.
he is a tf main since s3 has 500 games this season in diamond 3 that should tell you enough about how smart he is
Even so, if somebody is trying to learn why a decision is made "stfu and do it my way" is one of the worst responses to give.
List of weirder onhit champions who you could go devourer on for fun:
Chagath: 80+.3AP maxed Malph: 75+.1AP .1AR Teemo: 50+.3AP Udyr: 67+.15AP (if it was every hit, only procs every 3 hits for triple this) Aatrox: 67+.33AD (if it was every hit, only procs every 3 hits for triple this) Irelia: 75 true Rumble: 120+.25 at 18 Volibear: 155+.3AP
On this note, what happens to draven with devourer? His spinning axe is an onhit effect, doubling axeplosion? Probably not.
Have you guys gotten a random survey in post game screen asking you to rate the champion's gameplay and design you just played with from the scale of poor to excellent?
On July 15 2015 09:19 MooMooMugi wrote: Have you guys gotten a random survey in post game screen asking you to rate the champion's gameplay and design you just played with from the scale of poor to excellent?
No, but Riot likes to throw those out there from time to time based around whatever they want feedback on. Never got one, but I know they exist.
Has anyone tried Devourer out on Rek'Sai? I want to think it's shit on her, but if it applies the shadow's second hit on her Q spin attack maybe it's good?
I've yet to play a game since 5.13 went live, is jungle nowadays literally only champions that abuse Devourer and nothing else?
On July 15 2015 10:25 Sonnington wrote: Hey, so what happened to Cho Gath. When I stopped playing Cho was still a priority pick. Did he get nerfed or something?
Didn't get nerfed, people just realized there were better control mages in the game that dont have 2 main skillshot reliant skills on 10+sec cooldown each
On July 15 2015 10:13 Kinie wrote: Has anyone tried Devourer out on Rek'Sai? I want to think it's shit on her, but if it applies the shadow's second hit on her Q spin attack maybe it's good?
I've yet to play a game since 5.13 went live, is jungle nowadays literally only champions that abuse Devourer and nothing else?
since Q is only three attacks you get a maximum of 110+.4AD added over four attacks with devourer...that's really abysmal.
I actually just went and played a game of jungle onhit rumble with devourer where you basically just get overheated as fast as you can, does a fuckton of damage and clears really really fast.
jesus, irelia seems pretty sick with devourer, every other attack does 150 true damage. Devourer bork into pure tank and you should be able to kill anyone in the game, she clears super strong too
On July 15 2015 10:25 Sonnington wrote: Hey, so what happened to Cho Gath. When I stopped playing Cho was still a priority pick. Did he get nerfed or something?
cho is weak vs actual control mages and strong vs assassins. assassins fell off therefore cho fell off
On July 15 2015 22:22 Seuss wrote: As a software engineer I haven't the faintest idea how that kind of bug could happen. It's practically awe-inspiring.
Every time something like this comes up I have that feeling.
"How could those two things POSSIBLY be related?"
It makes me want to look at Riot's code base.
Or maybe not because it'll probably have a similar effect as the Ark of the Covenant.
On July 15 2015 22:22 Seuss wrote: As a software engineer I haven't the faintest idea how that kind of bug could happen. It's practically awe-inspiring.
Every time something like this comes up I have that feeling.
"How could those two things POSSIBLY be related?"
It makes me want to look at Riot's code base.
Or maybe not because it'll probably have a similar effect as the Ark of the Covenant.
On July 15 2015 22:22 Seuss wrote: As a software engineer I haven't the faintest idea how that kind of bug could happen. It's practically awe-inspiring.
I thought stuff like that was chalked up to being coded as minions. hehehe
I am wondering if any shield would produce that result. If so, more than likely there is probably some kind of accidental variable inside of the W mana cost script.
On July 16 2015 00:12 lilwisper wrote: I thought stuff like that was chalked up to being coded as minions. hehehe
I am wondering if any shield would produce that result. If so, more than likely there is probably some kind of accidental variable inside of the W mana cost script.
The script might be OK. It could be due to the underlying platform.
On July 15 2015 22:22 Seuss wrote: As a software engineer I haven't the faintest idea how that kind of bug could happen. It's practically awe-inspiring.
I spend my lunch discussing this bug 2 colleagues, the only two solutions we could arrive at were Zilean is either coded as a minion or that Riot accidently developed an immature AI which is now trolling everyone.
In the vein of new stupid shit: How dumb is Sated Devourer on Vayne exactly? I played against one a bit ago, she got fed, she utterly fucking wrecked us. Maybe because she had a good start off of our jungler doing some creative jungling but the damage seemed bonkers.
It's fantastic once you actually get 30 stacks. The problem is getting there as a Vayne with a shitty ignite and an expensive paperweight for 20 minutes. If she's winning while stacking a Devourer, you were fucked anyway.
On July 16 2015 01:59 Kaethis wrote: In the vein of new stupid shit: How dumb is Sated Devourer on Vayne exactly? I played against one a bit ago, she got fed, she utterly fucking wrecked us. Maybe because she had a good start off of our jungler doing some creative jungling but the damage seemed bonkers.
Wouldn't a fed Vayne fuck you up without Sated Devourer anyway?
Every devourer vayne i've played with/against in ranked has gotten destroyed in lane and surrendered in 20. I'm not sure how people expect to get through laning AND get stacks without letting the other team free farm/get free towers.
Also has anyone been playing devourer skarner? I feel like he could be really strong as he farms pretty quickly and gets perma-Q once he has sated.
On July 16 2015 01:59 Kaethis wrote: In the vein of new stupid shit: How dumb is Sated Devourer on Vayne exactly? I played against one a bit ago, she got fed, she utterly fucking wrecked us. Maybe because she had a good start off of our jungler doing some creative jungling but the damage seemed bonkers.
Wouldn't a fed Vayne fuck you up without Sated Devourer anyway?
Yes and no. Sated Devourer is easily the single highest DPS item for vayne in the game. Proccing silver bolts on 2 attacks instead of 3 is massive. 50% attack speed is the second largest single item attack speed boost in the game vayne can reasonably make use of and vayne has the hardest AS scaling in the game. 60 on hit-damage is massive in its own right before the bonus passive. There isn't a ~2000 gold item that comes close to comparing with the exception of maybe Sword of the Occult. So a fed vayne with sated will definitely fuck you a lot harder than a fed vayne without sated.
On July 15 2015 11:11 Slusher wrote: pretty sure that list includes Lee, provided you can play him, which isn't true for all that pick him.
shaco, same caveat
I honestly completely forgot Shaco existed. I also think that Lee might be better off with Cinderhulk.
Competitively probably, but i feel like soloqueue he is better with warrior. Soloqueue puts a lot more emphasis on snowballing and warrior snowballs harder and faster.
Cinderhulk for competitive however, is pretty necessary, since Lee needs to be tanky to be effective in a lategame team fight and Cinderhulk lets him do that
On July 16 2015 02:44 Crazazyasian1337 wrote: Every devourer vayne i've played with/against in ranked has gotten destroyed in lane and surrendered in 20. I'm not sure how people expect to get through laning AND get stacks without letting the other team free farm/get free towers.
Also has anyone been playing devourer skarner? I feel like he could be really strong as he farms pretty quickly and gets perma-Q once he has sated.
Scip has it seems quite strong.
On July 15 2015 08:01 sob3k wrote: List of weirder onhit champions who you could go devourer on for fun:
Chagath: 80+.3AP maxed Malph: 75+.1AP .1AR Teemo: 50+.3AP Udyr: 67+.15AP (if it was every hit, only procs every 3 hits for triple this) Aatrox: 67+.33AD (if it was every hit, only procs every 3 hits for triple this) Irelia: 75 true Rumble: 120+.25 at 18 Volibear: 155+.3AP
On this note, what happens to draven with devourer? His spinning axe is an onhit effect, doubling axeplosion? Probably not.
How the hell is udyr a weird champ wtf. He used to go devourer quite a bit anyway. I played devourer malphite prepatch and thought it was strong, it's stupidly good post patch. chogath is doesnt work because he has no mobility to run around autoing people. rumble obviously won't work volibear its only with his ult fuck teemo leave him in the trashcan where he belongs, why play a lane bully in the jungle might as well play vayne and 6 shot tanks aatrox is just a worse version of irelia so we can disregard that irelia jungle might be interesting, wonder how she does without trinity though, or just going devourer trinity might be too squishy.
On July 15 2015 11:32 Sufficiency wrote: OK I don't think Devourer Udyr is any good, or at least not with Pheonix. I rather go Cinderhulk with Pheonix.
It was good before they changed devourer. Secondly tiger doesn't have any special synergy with the new devourer, its just more attack speed. Lastly it doesn't make any sense why you'd prefer to go cinderhulk on pheonix specifically. There's nothing wrong with cinderhulk on udyr but why are you acting like tiger and pheonix stances are very different when they're quite similar it's just tiger stance doesn't allow you to clear jungle but has the advantage of better burst damage.
On July 15 2015 22:22 Seuss wrote: As a software engineer I haven't the faintest idea how that kind of bug could happen. It's practically awe-inspiring.
Every time something like this comes up I have that feeling.
"How could those two things POSSIBLY be related?"
It makes me want to look at Riot's code base.
Or maybe not because it'll probably have a similar effect as the Ark of the Covenant.
Nobody is too young to reference that, man. Everybody's seen Indiana Jones >.>
On a different note, I've been spamming Miss Fortune to find that she's actually a really fun champion. A lot of people tell me to Max Q first, but Max E also seems to be pretty strong; is one better than the other?
On July 15 2015 22:22 Seuss wrote: As a software engineer I haven't the faintest idea how that kind of bug could happen. It's practically awe-inspiring.
I spend my lunch discussing this bug 2 colleagues, the only two solutions we could arrive at were Zilean is either coded as a minion or that Riot accidently developed an immature AI which is now trolling everyone.
I lied, I actually have some idea of what may be going on.
The first step to debugging anything is to determine what the actual symptom is. We know that when Zilean walks past an inner turret W's cost increases from 35 to 70, but there's more than one way that can happen.
The cost could be subtracted twice from Zilean's mana.
The cost could be doubled.
The cost could be set specifically to 70 by the inner turret.
Knowing which of these is actually occurring helps point toward what's going on. I suspect that upon investigation it will be discovered that the cost has simply doubled, but that is not certain.
Now, the most obvious cause of an integer doubling is a bitwise shift left. If you don't understand what that is flee, this spoiler is not for you. The question then is whether there's an explicit bitwise shift being called erroneously, or if an unintentional shift is occurring. My first guess, given how seemingly unrelated the inner turret is to Zilean's mana costs, is the latter.
The problem from here is that both of the common causes of such shifts seem unlikely. An off by 1 error, causing the indexes used to grab the cost value to be one to the right of where they should be, is unlikely because none of that logic should have anything to do with turret shields. By the same token, a stray bit being removed from Zilean's data would result in far more than just doubled mana costs, so that seems unlikely as well.
Whichever of the two, or possible some other option, is causing the problem probably was some sort of a bugfix or optimization, the consequences of which were not adequately considered or tested.
On July 15 2015 22:22 Seuss wrote: As a software engineer I haven't the faintest idea how that kind of bug could happen. It's practically awe-inspiring.
I spend my lunch discussing this bug 2 colleagues, the only two solutions we could arrive at were Zilean is either coded as a minion or that Riot accidently developed an immature AI which is now trolling everyone.
I lied, I actually have some idea of what may be going on.
The first step to debugging anything is to determine what the actual symptom is. We know that when Zilean walks past an inner turret W's cost increases from 35 to 70, but there's more than one way that can happen.
The cost could be subtracted twice from Zilean's mana.
The cost could be doubled.
The cost could be set specifically to 70 by the inner turret.
Knowing which of these is actually occurring helps point toward what's going on. I suspect that upon investigation it will be discovered that the cost has simply doubled, but that is not certain.
Now, the most obvious cause of an integer doubling is a bitwise shift left. If you don't understand what that is flee, this spoiler is not for you. The question then is whether there's an explicit bitwise shift being called erroneously, or if an unintentional shift is occurring. My first guess, given how seemingly unrelated the inner turret is to Zilean's mana costs, is the latter.
The problem from here is that both of the common causes of such shifts seem unlikely. An off by 1 error, causing the indexes used to grab the cost value to be one to the right of where they should be, is unlikely because none of that logic should have anything to do with turret shields. By the same token, a stray bit being removed from Zilean's data would result in far more than just doubled mana costs, so that seems unlikely as well.
Whichever of the two, or possible some other option, is causing the problem probably was some sort of a bugfix or optimization, the consequences of which were not adequately considered or tested.
I really don't think this is due to some awkward C++ behaviour. This is probably due to bad scripting.
On July 16 2015 01:59 Kaethis wrote: In the vein of new stupid shit: How dumb is Sated Devourer on Vayne exactly? I played against one a bit ago, she got fed, she utterly fucking wrecked us. Maybe because she had a good start off of our jungler doing some creative jungling but the damage seemed bonkers.
Jungle? Risking invades, but stupid when she hits Sated. Lane? Win lane or lose game.
On July 15 2015 22:22 Seuss wrote: As a software engineer I haven't the faintest idea how that kind of bug could happen. It's practically awe-inspiring.
Every time something like this comes up I have that feeling.
"How could those two things POSSIBLY be related?"
It makes me want to look at Riot's code base.
Or maybe not because it'll probably have a similar effect as the Ark of the Covenant.
Nobody is too young to reference that, man. Everybody's seen Indiana Jones >.>
On a different note, I've been spamming Miss Fortune to find that she's actually a really fun champion. A lot of people tell me to Max Q first, but Max E also seems to be pretty strong; is one better than the other?
I'm confused,sometimes I dont even lvl up E once till I maxed q and w first.I think E is kinda useless and not needed early,expect maybe putting 1 point into it at lvl 4.
shot in the dark but could be it something to do with the way tower is constantly updating zileans hp, so its jamming up whatevers running so it takes the mana off twice before it realizes rewind was already cast i mean rewind is already doing a lot reducing cds, could also be some terrible thing where rewind still reduces its on CD but it gets set back by something else, so it sees its "on cd" twice so it takes mana off twice
On July 15 2015 22:22 Seuss wrote: As a software engineer I haven't the faintest idea how that kind of bug could happen. It's practically awe-inspiring.
Every time something like this comes up I have that feeling.
"How could those two things POSSIBLY be related?"
It makes me want to look at Riot's code base.
Or maybe not because it'll probably have a similar effect as the Ark of the Covenant.
Nobody is too young to reference that, man. Everybody's seen Indiana Jones >.>
On a different note, I've been spamming Miss Fortune to find that she's actually a really fun champion. A lot of people tell me to Max Q first, but Max E also seems to be pretty strong; is one better than the other?
I'm confused,sometimes I dont even lvl up E once till I maxed q and w first.I think E is kinda useless and not needed early,expect maybe putting 1 point into it at lvl 4.
Q or E max are both viable
W should never be leveled before either. When leveling a skill you have to ignore that fact that it sounds good and actually look at the per level scaling.
W gets: 10% AS per level AND costs more, thats fucking it. That's absolutely abysmal. Like, absurdly bad scaling.
On July 15 2015 22:22 Seuss wrote: As a software engineer I haven't the faintest idea how that kind of bug could happen. It's practically awe-inspiring.
Every time something like this comes up I have that feeling.
"How could those two things POSSIBLY be related?"
It makes me want to look at Riot's code base.
Or maybe not because it'll probably have a similar effect as the Ark of the Covenant.
Nobody is too young to reference that, man. Everybody's seen Indiana Jones >.>
On a different note, I've been spamming Miss Fortune to find that she's actually a really fun champion. A lot of people tell me to Max Q first, but Max E also seems to be pretty strong; is one better than the other?
I'm confused,sometimes I dont even lvl up E once till I maxed q and w first.I think E is kinda useless and not needed early,expect maybe putting 1 point into it at lvl 4.
Q or E max are both viable
W should never be leveled before either. When leveling a skill you have to ignore that fact that it sounds good and actually look at the per level scaling.
W gets: 10% AS per level AND costs more, thats fucking it. That's absolutely abysmal. Like, absurdly bad scaling.
E gets: a second off the CD 55 damage 10% slow
Never max W. Never.
I see,never noticed it has such a terrible scaling.Thanks!
On July 15 2015 22:22 Seuss wrote: As a software engineer I haven't the faintest idea how that kind of bug could happen. It's practically awe-inspiring.
Every time something like this comes up I have that feeling.
"How could those two things POSSIBLY be related?"
It makes me want to look at Riot's code base.
Or maybe not because it'll probably have a similar effect as the Ark of the Covenant.
Nobody is too young to reference that, man. Everybody's seen Indiana Jones >.>
On a different note, I've been spamming Miss Fortune to find that she's actually a really fun champion. A lot of people tell me to Max Q first, but Max E also seems to be pretty strong; is one better than the other?
No, just different. Q tends to have better total fight damage and burst; but E will hold people in fights longer. You need between 1.8 to 2 Q's per full charge E in order for leveling Q to be better than leveling E. But full charge E's are less likely even if you rank it up, and Q's CD reduction is more potent as you do so. And the auto reset impure shots stacking becomes more potent. But E still holds people in fights longer.
I think the last time we had this discussion the consensus was that Q was better against AD's/supports that had dashes and that E was better against AD's/supports that didn't have dashes.
The reasoning is simple; against someone who can dash out of E, you get almost nothing for it, except a zone. If you can hit them with a Q (or more often with Q's due to the CD reduction) then Q is better. If you can hold them in the fight with E however, then E can be used both to zone, and to chase, as well as generally doing more damage relative to risk exposure
Additionally E has much better Ult synergy. Letting you hold champions that don't have a dash or flash in your ult much easier [65% vs 25% slow is HUGE for this]. So getting E to max before you're really team fighting is very powerful.
Compare the level 6 fight with 1 rank in E vs 3 ranks in E. A champion slowed rank 1 covers 36% more ground than a champion slowed rank 3 in the same amount of time. Which means that if a champion could, under rank 1 e, leave your ult [or e radius] within 1.49 seconds or less, then rank 3 E will increase the damage of your ult by potentially more than 36% [due to impure shots stacking MF's ult backloads a lot of the damage]
Of course, always level E or Q second. Consider that a champion under rank 1 E moves about 2.14 times faster than a champion under rank 5 E and its really easy to see how important that slow becomes to keeping people in your ult, providing choke points in zone etc in mid game team fights.
edit: E is also potentially better if you're losing, since you can wave clear with it. Potentially better if you're winning hard against just because of various chase/zone potential.
uh not sure if it's a bug but there is a riven in my game that's teleporting everywhere, not with the summoner i mean she literally just randomly appears all over the map :|
wait apparently she's just getting sent back to fountain randomly what is going on
is this some new hack i've never heard of cause this is hilarious
Just played Karma runeglaive for the fun (and the IP) in coop. The runeglaive AoE actually makes you kill caster minions with just Q+auto, it looks really comfortable to lane with... Don't think it's very good anyway but interesting.
Oh Suff if you still don't know how the bug works, basically if you press recall and a channellable ability (ex. Alistar heal) you enter some weird bugged state. If then you press an autoattack, it will play the animation and sound, but won't actually deal damage. If you cancel that auto with certain abilities (Riven's Q, Ali's QW) you blink to fountain and perform the ability there.
On July 16 2015 11:01 AlterKot wrote: Oh Suff if you still don't know how the bug works, basically if you press recall and a channellable ability (ex. Alistar heal) you enter some weird bugged state. If then you press an autoattack, it will play the animation and sound, but won't actually deal damage. If you cancel that auto with certain abilities (Riven's Q, Ali's QW) you blink to fountain and perform the ability there.
Ugh I tried pretty hard but could not replicate it. Maybe it needs non-East coast ping?
On July 15 2015 11:01 sob3k wrote: jesus, irelia seems pretty sick with devourer, every other attack does 150 true damage. Devourer bork into pure tank and you should be able to kill anyone in the game, she clears super strong too
On July 17 2015 01:34 Slusher wrote: they already said they plan to but ad takes longer because of how AD skill ratios vs. auto attacks muddy the balance waters.
wasn't that in response to new AD items? i'm talking about just better build paths like they did with morello, athenes, etc.
the only argument I could think of is that it'd be too good on ad assassins/casters, but ad assassins/casters hoard long swords anyways.
No, it includes that too. The issue with touching AD is they still need to have ADC work well with their stat trinity while keeping melee and poker ADs in check too.
streamlining build paths is still a balance change, any way you slice it.
also just a messenger, changing my mind won't matter.
On July 17 2015 02:01 krndandaman wrote: I feel bad for adc's especially in a game like the game that just happened with giants vs h2k where a kalista can come to lane with vampscepter/longsword and the jinx is forced to go doran's.
unrelated, you could put a longsword in the IE build path and IE Ads would still get a Doran's, you need it for life steal since the vamp scepter pitstop is so bad for your dps, unless they brought back old Vamp.
On July 17 2015 01:34 Slusher wrote: they already said they plan to but ad takes longer because of how AD skill ratios vs. auto attacks muddy the balance waters.
wasn't that in response to new AD items? i'm talking about just better build paths like they did with morello, athenes, etc.
the only argument I could think of is that it'd be too good on ad assassins/casters, but ad assassins/casters hoard long swords anyways.
No, it includes that too. The issue with touching AD is they still need to have ADC work well with their stat trinity while keeping melee and poker ADs in check too.
idk, whenever I play my ad casters/assassins I hardly have any problems with build path. the only annoying part is getting daggers on botrk users but otherwise I just hoard long swords.
I back with 720-850? get long swords 875? pickaxe 400? longword
these longswords build into vamp scepter, cutlass, brutalizer, last whisper
I can get up to 3 long swords without worry on a standard caster without botrk I can get up to 5 on a standard assassin
I feel bad for adc's especially in a game like the game that just happened with giants vs h2k where a kalista can come to lane with vampscepter/longsword and the jinx is forced to go doran's.
Yeah, but it also depends on how itemization changes around that. How does building crit change? How does more accessible BFs for Tryndamere, Yasuo, and Yi effect that hump they need to get over for IE? Does the Hydra build path change? Will Riot stop being scared and finally make a full, non-crit including AD/Armor item? Does Soul Sickle finally make it into the game? etc.
On July 17 2015 02:13 krndandaman wrote: meh, fair enough. just think riot is overstating the difficulty of making ad build paths better. i'm not even an adc player anyways lol. the build path just looks so awkward even as a bystander looking on.
Even if we were to just tackle the IE buildup, what would be the best way to go about it? Xyph said he didn't like adding in Amp Tomes to build paths because it clutters the inventory but couldn't find out how to smooth out the buildpath further.
So do you throw in a longsword? Now the build path is BF, Pickaxe, CoA, and Longsword. 2/3rds of the inventory is components for IE. Then you have 2 slots with Doran's/Doran's or Doran's/Boots. No room for pots. Since the BF sword cost goes down, you might not be able to skip over the combine cost very often because it will still be around 600.
Fixing IE is a hefty task that only resolves itself easily if crit is removed from it, and CoA with it, and it's passive is buffed. But then all crit items need a boost for champions that don't buy it and the crit reliant Yasuo needs fundamental changes.
On July 17 2015 01:34 Slusher wrote: they already said they plan to but ad takes longer because of how AD skill ratios vs. auto attacks muddy the balance waters.
The only items that really overlap are LW, Brut, and Botrk, and they have super easy build paths anyways. Ad assassins and bruisers already have great buildups. It's basically only the first BF sword that needs much looking at.
AP is so much simpler. All they needed to do was add itemization space for utility items while balancing at most two important main stats. (AP/CDR) They realized Dcap had to be a lot more crucial and that that was fine. From there, it was just moving items into more clear tiers and changing the slow passive.
AD has at least twice the amount of variables (AD/AS/Crit/CDR), AD casters vs AD carries (DFG removal made AP assassins more of a kit thing than a build thing, which they can't do with AD assassins), and the big crit item requiring you to build more of the 3 or so actually good crit items and also being so crucial you have to be a Tforce user to ever skip it.
Then again, they won't fix any of that with little changes, so it'd probably be best to just make BF sword cheaper and some smoother build paths as a stop-gap.
Ad casters are hard to balance in their own right, particularly the melee ones, because you never really know how many autos they will get in. If they end in getting more than you balance for, they become really oppressive (zed in a splitpush) but if they get fewer they kind of become irrelevant like GP or Garen.
Has riot said anything about what they doing for pro play with respect to this blue pill bug?
Is it just a "herp no pro player would be stupid enough to abuse this on stage, please don't try me" kind of thing, or will it be a free for all kind of thing?
Does Riot have rules against "exploiting bugs" in pro play? The BW player in me thinks I'd be cool to see how much instant recalls would change the game, the lol player in me thinks Riot would commit genocide before allowing that to happen.
On July 17 2015 03:35 iCanada wrote: Has riot said anything about what they doing for pro play with respect to this blue pill bug?
Is it just a "herp no pro player would be stupid enough to abuse this on stage, please don't try me" kind of thing, or will it be a free for all kind of thing?
Does Riot have rules against "exploiting bugs" in pro play? The BW player in me thinks I'd be cool to see how much instant recalls would change the game, the lol player in me thinks Riot would commit genocide before allowing that to happen.
Lol.
It's probably against the rules to knowingly abuse a bug. Given how it's well known at this point and how deliberate pulling it off is, I don't think it falls under the "you'd be stupid to try it" category.
I'm going to ekko the statement that the new devourer seems pretty strong on Kayle. It feels a lot stronger than old devourer Kayle as in you're not hitting like a wet noodle in the late game.
I'm not sure how it works for the rest of the on-hit champs as most of them can't afford to build several other damaging on-hit items like runaan's, nashor's, wits, botrk without being too squishy.
Ranged on-hit champions like Teemo, Vayne, and Lucian can't really jungle and/or can't use devourer as well as Kayle. Without the AoE damage they clear much slower and take way more damage so they can't gank as well. Most of them don't have good CC for ganks either and none of them have Kayle's ult.
It's probably less good on the rest of the melee on-hit junglers in the game like Jax, Xin, Irelia, Shyvana, etc... just because they can build at most like 1 other on-hit item before suffering from being too squishy for the teamfights So while they get a lot from the new devourer compared to the old one, they don't get as much as Kayle does.
On July 18 2015 04:11 Seuss wrote: I'm at work and can't watch a 42 minute video. Cliffs Notes version?
they lost because of bad play but the picks weren't good either/pretty much every player got told they are doing shit wrong in game(only bjerg was too negative out of it)/regi is going to take a more active role(as a coach) and is going to push the team to try harder/their teamfighting is dogshit
0) Wildturtle confirmed vegan. 1) Loco and Regi discuss teamcomps. 2) Bjerg allowed to pick whatever he wants despite what Loco wants. 3) Talk with players about their anti-synergistic comp. 4) Reaction to Piglet's Baron steal. hue 5) Talk about horrible teamfights and the wierd itemization. 6) Loco suggests Warmog's as 5th item instead of Thornmail (Jek: Suggest Targon's ffs, Loco pls) 7) Wildturtle lied and confirmed vegetarian. 8) Team review last LCS games' mistakes. 9) Players find Regi a really harsh coach, but likes him for it. 10) Dyrus can do 300 push ups, and is actually a dietist! :O 11) Team talk with Regi: Lustboy: Stellar earlier, but dropped off in this meta since it requires more communication and he goes too ham without warning also partly a general team problem. Lustboy is confident he'll improve. Bjergsen: Most consistent. Need better attitude, and stay positive in bad games. Team member looks up to him. Higher expectations. Need to respect in this meta it's harder for mid to carry. Dyrus: (himself) Talks about general toplane play and decisions. Communication issues. Prone to tilting. Regi: Wants to be a lot more active in coaching. Wants better improvements from the scrim practice. Everyone needs better attitude in losing games.
12) Regi as strictly coach instead of playing-coach is better for the atmosphere. 13) Loco talks about the early TSM days, it was an easy choice to join TSM instead staying with Alliance. 14) Regi believes he can improve greatly as a coach over the playoffs. Team improvement will probably take some time.
tl;dr: Team needs better attitude, communication, better drafts/teamfights and Regi wants to be a lot more active as a coach.
Basically this is how led to Loco's draft decision prior to the game vs TL (based on the conversations in the video)
(1) Bjergsen tells him that Ez is good pick vs Azir (2) Loco originally wanted him to pick Orianna but Bjerg convinces him otherwise. (3) Loco forgets how the champion actually functions with the rest of the comp.
The result is a very ineffiicent teamcomp. And then we see the Olaf ban (???) and Fenix getting Azir next game... Afterwards Regi then bascially demoted Loco to assisant coach and took over the head coach position.
It's easy to critize people in hindsight and follow the circlejerk, but based on every interview with Loco over the years I always felt like he seemed like an unalytical guy.
6) Loco suggests Warmog's as 5th item instead of Thornmail
Says a lot about Loco's analytical skill. Thornmail or a BV would've been much more efficient that game.
I actually dont think suggesting something instead of Thornmail was a bad idea, they were playing a mostly magic damage team (TL played Corki) and Fenix was destroying everyone. Think Targon's would have been a million times better than Warmog's tho or BV as you mention.
On July 18 2015 06:14 Mensol wrote: Bjergsen is such a primadonna l o l. If he were not to listen his coach's p/b in KR/CN, he'd get benched till he fix his mentality.
Please think twice before insulting innocent players based on your completely off interpretations of events. If you think a bit more logically while rewatching the video again, you'll likely draw this conclusion:
(1) Prior to the game, Loco initially wanted Bjergsen on Orianna (versus Azir I guess) (2) Bjergsen told him that Ez was good vs Azir (3) Loco let Bjergsen pick Ez without thinking about the synergy of the teamcomp.
At no point during the video was there any reason to believe that Bjergsen picked Ez against the will of Loco, and it's so dumb to make assumptions based on the perspective of one person who clearly has an interst (when talking to his boss) in redirecting the blaim away from him self.
But if you rewatch this a couple of times and read betwen the lines, I believe the above is the only logical conclusion you can draw from the conversation.
And this is 100% on Loco!!! When Bjergsen tells Loco that Ez is good vs Azir, Loco's reaction should just be: interesting, I take that into account along with several other factors when drafting the teamcomp. .
Instead Loco didn't take into account how the teamcomp synergy would look like if Bjerg was on Ez.
This is also why Reginald tweets that Bjergsen has a great attitude and that the issues are related to the coaching staff. Noone ever implies that Bjergsen picked a champion against the will of Loco. Bjergsen just needed to work on being more optimistic.
The thing is that Loco shouldntve let Bjerg pick Ezreal when he already prepared (or team synergy) strats with Orianna. You have to listen your coach in pick&ban phase, thats why he is standing behind of you.
IIt's obvious that Loco has lost his authority over Bjergsen. Thats why Regi decided to take more active role as coach.
Truth is if you say your goal is to do well at worlds even if you have a suboptimal teamcomp you should push t8's shit back in.Ezreal wasn't that bad of a pick but tsm just played awful in both of the games.Regi did say this at the end of the episode so I am happy they aren't just scapegoating the p/b and ignoring the real issues.
What struck me the most from loco was him saying that vi scales well when you are comparing her to gragas lol
Bjergsen picked Ezreal despite Locodoco (and his team, or well at least Santorin) wanted him to pick Orianna, made him come off a bit too selfish about forcing the Ezreal pick through. Ironically in the next game him listening to Locodoco and grabbing Orianna backfired since he just got dove over and over due to the lack of mobility.
In anything Bjergsen came off a somewhat overly selfconfident and Locodoco being too nice a guy. Think Reginald and Locodoco will make a great coaching pair, at first glance their personalities seem to balance each other extremely well.
Bjergsen picked Ezreal despite Locodoco (and his team, or well at least Santorin) wanted him to pick Orianna, made him come off a bit too selfish about forcing the Ezreal pick through
You make it sound like they had a big discussion during the draft phase which there is no indication of. Loco even phrased it like this "before the game I asked him about the Azir vs Ez matchup". That clearly implies that Bjergsen convinced Loco Ez was the better pick, and Loco was too easily convinced
I really can't believe how many people lack critical skills when listening to the perspective of a guy who clearly has an interest putting blaim away from himself.
Bjergsen picked Ezreal despite Locodoco (and his team, or well at least Santorin) wanted him to pick Orianna, made him come off a bit too selfish about forcing the Ezreal pick through
You make it sound like they had a big discussion during the draft phase which there is no indication of.
I really can't believe how many people lack critical skills when listening to the perspective of a guy who clearly has an interest putting blaim away from himself.
They both have an interest in putting the blaim away from themselves.
Bjergsen should have enough respect for his coach to follow his call, and Locodoco should demand this respect. It is really pretty basic in high level competitive sports that you respect what ever your coach calls you, that being solo or team sports.
Bjergsen picked Ezreal despite Locodoco (and his team, or well at least Santorin) wanted him to pick Orianna, made him come off a bit too selfish about forcing the Ezreal pick through
You make it sound like they had a big discussion during the draft phase which there is no indication of.
I really can't believe how many people lack critical skills when listening to the perspective of a guy who clearly has an interest putting blaim away from himself.
They both have an interest in putting the blaim away from themselves.
Why are you bringing this up when Bjergsen wasn't even commenting on it (this should also ring bells - if Bjergsen had been a primadonna during the pick/ban-phase, then the postgame discussion would have been very different). We only hear Loco's discussion with Regi.
When Bjergsen just convinces Loco that he should pick Ez into Azir (through arguments) that's not Bjergsen being a primadonna. That's just Bjergsen informing Loco about matchup strenghts/having a discussions, and Loco made a bad decision based on the available information.
Loco is responsible for the teamcomp unless the players picks against the will of Loco which clearly wasn't what happened here (and unless the head coach is really just an analyst, which is the case in some teams but not for TSM). Careful studying of the video clearly indicates that.
Also remember all the times Loco has told the team after a game "I said you should have done XX, but you didn't". This didn't even occur after this game, thus nothing indicates that Loco had told Bjergsen during draft phase to pick Orianna (or even priorly). Instead it seemed that Loco just brought it up as a suggestion prior to the game and Bjergsen convinced him not to do it.
Im not really a fan of what Regi has done in the past, but it's clear that he is a much more analytical guy than Loco. If you can argue throughouly why you should do XX instead of YY, then you can convince most people. Nothing in this video indicates that Loco explained to Bjergsen the consequences of him picking Ez.
Bjergsen should have enough respect for his coach to follow his call
THERE WAS NO CALL!!!
A call would be if Loco during the pick/ban phase (or directly prior to that) - after having gathered and assesed the available information - ordered Bjergsen to pick Orianna. Instead, it's clear that they just had a discussion about it prior to the game, and Bjergsen convinced him (through arguments) to not do it.
Otherwise Loco wouldn't say the following: Just before the game I asked him about the Azir vs Ez matchup.
No a call would be him saying the following: Prior to the game I told him to pick Ori, but he didn't
I don't blame Bjergsen for not being an expert on teamcompositions because that's not really his job. His job is to play well and inform the coach about specific matchups. The coach's job is then to collect and analyze all that information and make the best possible decisions. Loco clearly hasn't been capable of that and as a consequence he has - effectively - been demoted to assitant coach.
The whole point of a coach, especially in a game as mechanics- and synergy-centric as league, is so that your players do not have to focus on shit outside of mechanics and synergy. You give them a general strategy, especially a pick-ban strategy, and they focus on executing it and having the mechanics to play at a high enough level for what you picked to be relevant. It's not just a sixth voice to bounce shit off of. Underselling coaching is the quickest way to make sure your team sucks vs any relevant team.
He should be researching heavily, he should know Warmog's is terrifically inefficient, he should know that an Olaf ban over Azir is a poor strategy. He should know that Ez has lost every lane he's ever been in, no matter what Bjerg says. It'd be foolish to blame everything on hierarchy, but as Regi says (I've got a lot of respect for Regi; he was always a terrifically smart guy outside of his play), Loco was clearly having issues with it, among, apparently, a host of other things. Regi's stepping in for a reason.
On July 18 2015 07:46 Caiada wrote: If I could be serious for a moment....
The whole point of a coach, especially in a game as mechanics- and synergy-centric as league, is so that your players do not have to focus on shit outside of mechanics and synergy. You give them a general strategy, especially a pick-ban strategy, and they focus on executing it and having the mechanics to play at a high enough level for what you picked to be relevant. It's not just a sixth voice to bounce shit off of. Underselling coaching is the quickest way to make sure your team sucks vs any relevant team.
He should be researching heavily, he should know Warmog's is terrifically inefficient, he should know that an Olaf ban over Azir is a poor strategy. He should know that Ez has lost every lane he's ever been in, no matter what Bjerg says. It'd be foolish to blame everything on hierarchy, but as Regi says (I've got a lot of respect for Regi; he was always a terrifically smart guy outside of his play), Loco was clearly having issues with it, among, apparently, a host of other things. Regi's stepping in for a reason.
Well guess what, the entire competitive scene seems to be in the dark about Warmogs sucking. Although while I don't watch a ton of China, I watch the majority of NA, EU, and Korea. I can remember only a singular occasion where a non-support built Face, and that was Dandy when he was playing Nunu. That's more an issue of the competitive scene than it is of Loco in particular. I know we as LL have come to this conclusion almost unanimously, but we also don't have the prevailing outlook on the state of the game.
As for Olaf, there might have been a solid reasoning for banning it. Without access to scrim footage, saying otherwise. The problem was not banning Azir and then to not follow it up by a first pick, opting for a Gragas that Santorin did dick with anyway.
Loco's job isn't to do research, that is for Parth and Dylan to figure out.
I'm not in the business of pointing out who specifically was fucking up in their analyst team, but I would like for the guy calling himself head coach to be at least mostly accountable for a game-losing draft and some truly baffling item choices
To be honest, it's also not really rocket science to read that Warmog's isn't efficient unless you're making a lot of use of HP5, that selling your ridiculously efficient gold item for a lategame Randuin's (and Ruby Sightstone, Jesus, Lustboy) is a poor choice, or that your top should probably build some MR before he finishes half the armor items in the game vs 2 and a half APs.
So, I wonder, what was their job beforehand? I didn't see the results of them doing anything.
Loco's job isn't to do research, that is for Parth and Dylan to figure out.
That's arguably, but regardless, his job is to make sure he has the required information. And that could be to do tell his analyst to study item builds/makre sure his players are aware of the optimal ways to play specific champions. Stuff like this almost always goes back to the head coach/boss (and yes you could argue it also goes back to Reginald for hiring Loco in the first place or stepping up too late).
On July 18 2015 08:44 Caiada wrote: I'm not in the business of pointing out who specifically was fucking up in their analyst team, but I would like for the guy calling himself head coach to be at least mostly accountable for a game-losing draft and some truly baffling item choices
To be honest, it's also not really rocket science to read that Warmog's isn't efficient unless you're making a lot of use of HP5, that selling your ridiculously efficient gold item for a lategame Randuin's (and Ruby Sightstone, Jesus, Lustboy) is a poor choice, or that your top should probably build some MR before he finishes half the armor items in the game vs 2 and a half APs.
So, I wonder, what was their job beforehand? I didn't see the results of them doing anything.
He has pinned a lot of their issues on the draft in last week's episode and accepted that the p/b were bad in this weeks. Item choices rely solely on the player unless he specifically mentions something. That is something a coach has 0 control of and can't act on outside of trying to figure out why it was built, and if the reasoning is garbage, to tell him to not do something like that.
They both temporarily went from satellite analysts to inhouse for IEM Kato, which was the first world encompassing international tournament NA, or even the West, has won in a long time.
Loco's job isn't to do research, that is for Parth and Dylan to figure out.
That's arguably, but regardless, his job is to make sure he has the required information. And that could be to do tell his analyst to study item builds/makre sure his players are aware of the optimal ways to play specific champions. Stuff like this almost always goes back to the head coach/boss (and yes you could argue it also goes back to Reginald for hiring Loco in the first place or stepping up too late).
There's this lovely phrase that goes "You don't know what you don't know." He might not know that he should have the analysts look into whether or not Warmogs is garbage against an Magic centric comp after building MR. But he sure as hell can look around and see something that fits the same niche of "butt ton of health" isn't being built by people all over the competitive scene.
On July 18 2015 07:46 Caiada wrote: If I could be serious for a moment....
The whole point of a coach, especially in a game as mechanics- and synergy-centric as league, is so that your players do not have to focus on shit outside of mechanics and synergy. You give them a general strategy, especially a pick-ban strategy, and they focus on executing it and having the mechanics to play at a high enough level for what you picked to be relevant. It's not just a sixth voice to bounce shit off of. Underselling coaching is the quickest way to make sure your team sucks vs any relevant team.
He should be researching heavily, he should know Warmog's is terrifically inefficient, he should know that an Olaf ban over Azir is a poor strategy. He should know that Ez has lost every lane he's ever been in, no matter what Bjerg says. It'd be foolish to blame everything on hierarchy, but as Regi says (I've got a lot of respect for Regi; he was always a terrifically smart guy outside of his play), Loco was clearly having issues with it, among, apparently, a host of other things. Regi's stepping in for a reason.
Well guess what, the entire competitive scene seems to be in the dark about Warmogs sucking. Although while I don't watch a ton of China, I watch the majority of NA, EU, and Korea. I can remember only a singular occasion where a non-support built Face, and that was Dandy when he was playing Nunu. That's more an issue of the competitive scene than it is of Loco in particular. I know we as LL have come to this conclusion almost unanimously, but we also don't have the prevailing outlook on the state of the game.
As for Olaf, there might have been a solid reasoning for banning it. Without access to scrim footage, saying otherwise. The problem was not banning Azir and then to not follow it up by a first pick, opting for a Gragas that Santorin did dick with anyway.
Loco's job isn't to do research, that is for Parth and Dylan to figure out.
If you can't Gragas firstpick for your jungler, thats not a coaching problem. If you can't give away Azir, thats not a coaching problem.
Just looking at the T8 and TL games. The coaching problems were: T8- Giving up Kalista, First Rotation 2 tanks not named Maokai and Gragas, and maybe they should have gone for Azir instead of one of Vi/Jinx in Rotation 2; TL- I prefer annie over shen for their comp, or Janna. That was an execution loss though. The Corki rocket baron, ffs.
On July 18 2015 07:46 Caiada wrote: If I could be serious for a moment....
The whole point of a coach, especially in a game as mechanics- and synergy-centric as league, is so that your players do not have to focus on shit outside of mechanics and synergy. You give them a general strategy, especially a pick-ban strategy, and they focus on executing it and having the mechanics to play at a high enough level for what you picked to be relevant. It's not just a sixth voice to bounce shit off of. Underselling coaching is the quickest way to make sure your team sucks vs any relevant team.
He should be researching heavily, he should know Warmog's is terrifically inefficient, he should know that an Olaf ban over Azir is a poor strategy. He should know that Ez has lost every lane he's ever been in, no matter what Bjerg says. It'd be foolish to blame everything on hierarchy, but as Regi says (I've got a lot of respect for Regi; he was always a terrifically smart guy outside of his play), Loco was clearly having issues with it, among, apparently, a host of other things. Regi's stepping in for a reason.
Well guess what, the entire competitive scene seems to be in the dark about Warmogs sucking. Although while I don't watch a ton of China, I watch the majority of NA, EU, and Korea. I can remember only a singular occasion where a non-support built Face, and that was Dandy when he was playing Nunu. That's more an issue of the competitive scene than it is of Loco in particular. I know we as LL have come to this conclusion almost unanimously, but we also don't have the prevailing outlook on the state of the game.
As for Olaf, there might have been a solid reasoning for banning it. Without access to scrim footage, saying otherwise. The problem was not banning Azir and then to not follow it up by a first pick, opting for a Gragas that Santorin did dick with anyway.
Loco's job isn't to do research, that is for Parth and Dylan to figure out.
If you can't Gragas firstpick for your jungler, thats not a coaching problem. If you can't give away Azir, thats not a coaching problem.
Just looking at the T8 and TL games. The coaching problems were: T8- Giving up Kalista, First Rotation 2 tanks not named Maokai and Gragas, and maybe they should have gone for Azir instead of one of Vi/Jinx in Rotation 2; TL- I prefer annie over shen for their comp, or Janna. That was an execution loss though. The Corki rocket baron, ffs.
It is when the coach is involved in pick/bans and is supposed to have an influence on it. Gragas isn't worth first picking on TSM because Santorin barely does anything during lane phase. Why put priority on that when you could easily set up the star mid laner on the team with clearly a top 3 mid pick, that he's good on, and the opposing mid specializes on?
TSM's pickban has been lackluster at best for a while now.
Just reading Regis tweets on Reddit he says that they do not structure their team as a hierarchy (although he is clearly on top) and the coach doesn't have the authority to make calls. He is simply there to "facilitate discussion" which is a downright silly way to do it. Player input is important during scrims and replay review but it seems like madness to not have an authority figure enforcing structure on the team when they are on stage.
Maybe it is impossible for a guy like Locodoco to be a real coach for gamers in his peer group and they need Regi because he is feared.
I don't blame Bjergsen for not being an expert on teamcompositions because that's not really his job. His job is to play well and inform the coach about specific matchups. The coach's job is then to collect and analyze all that information and make the best possible decisions. Loco clearly hasn't been capable of that and as a consequence he has - effectively - been demoted to assitant coach.
Bjergson, as the in game shot caller (IIRC) needs to be an expert on team compositions. Because you have to be an expert on team compositions to know when and how your team can engage and you have to do that to shot call.
That being said, the coach also needs to be an expert on team composition and laning. The coach has two jobs
1) Coordinate pick/ban. Develop and execute the relevant pick/ban strategies.
2) Mold individual player behavior towards better strategic choice. [I.E. figure out when items are bad and make sure to not have your players buy them]
The players have two primary jobs
1) Execute the coaches game strategy in game. Either shotcalling in an appropriate manner or
2) Execute mechanically
If Locodoco isn't doing 1 or 2 what is he doing? Chatting with them during P/B phase?
edit: Being more specific on the coach/analyst position the reason this happens is because players do not have the time or energy to both develop and learn strategies. More over, players will often be of a different mind regardless of whether or not they all have the same information, as to what strategy is being played or picked for. Additionally, pick/ban strategy is complicated in its own right and so giving this to a dedicated position reduces player load significantly. The coach then needs to know how mechanically and structurally proficient players are on and against various champions and in various situations and needs to be able to communicate effectively after the pick ban what kind of composition you have/how you have to win the game.
On July 18 2015 11:55 Sufficiency wrote: Went 0-4 in the first 10 minutes as jungle Kayle. Came back and got a penta anyway.
This champion is not OP guys!
I've had people dodge when I banned kayle because of "the troll ban".
LOL.
Please tell me you also banned Trundle and this is a hilarious case of miscommunication.
nah, Ez / Kayle / Ryze.
All 3 are champions I'd just rather aren't in the game, turn the game into a ticking timebomb. Not how you improve.
Was blue side, probably would have got one of them, but still. I'd just rather not. lol.
That said, with the popularity of Poke Champs and tanks, Trundle is kind of sleeper OP top, imo. So much sustain, shreds tanks, and can build a ton of damage. Ends up being a huge threat in fights, dat pillar, and is pretty scary in lane too.
On July 18 2015 12:03 AlterKot wrote: I still think Kayle is overhyped :/
Get back to me when you watch your Mid Laner, Support, and ADC die in 3 autos combined from their jungler.
On July 18 2015 12:03 AlterKot wrote: I still think Kayle is overhyped :/
I think jungle Kayle is fundamentally broken right now.
Sure, her early game can be terrible, but once she gets Hurricane + Sated she is just so damned stupid. She does tons of damage, and because of her W+R she actually fits into a variety of different kinds of team comps.
Making matter worse, her Q + Chilling Smite gank for the long lanes is absolutely disgusting.
Wtf does one build on Karthus now a days? I just rolled him in ARAM.
Man those AP Itemization changes kick him when he was down. RoA nerfs make him noticeably Squishier. Without Sivir he can't even get into the back line to die without flash.
Would be sick engage though if you had a Tahm Kench on your team.
On July 18 2015 13:31 Purge wrote: Id imagine seraphs, ludens, void, sorcs, dcap and rylais? Zhon too but im not sure you want that over Ludens in ARAM.
Thats what I built.
You never get through a tankline. You pretty much just a W bot.
I guess on Summoners Rift though you can engage with Homegard TP-W, prolly not as awful.
I've been having good results with devourer Irelia jungle, its quite versatile and solid.
So far I've found the most effective builds is devourer (skirmisher) into full tank, frozen heart etc etc. The 75 true damage on hit and 150 every other attack is enough to kill just about anyone, tank or squishy.
I've been experimenting with W>Q>E. Having your gap closer on a 6s CD compared to a 14 s CD is extremely strong. Its 3.6s at max cdr, as a jungle it feels better to me than E as sticking to a target is you #1 struggle.
devourer tabis frozen heart randuins thornmail and just wreck their ADC if they don't have strong magic damage. Lategame I go BOTRK if I need more punch. I've also gone banshee/hexdrinker/locket and remove their AP from the game.
Late game you become pretty godlike in skirmishes, like absolutely wrecking a 12-4 Diana in a 1v1 godlike. Squishy or tank doesn't matter with that much true damage.
On July 18 2015 15:59 sob3k wrote: I've been having good results with devourer Irelia jungle, its quite versatile and solid.
So far I've found the most effective builds is devourer (skirmisher) into full tank, frozen heart etc etc. The 75 true damage on hit and 150 every other attack is enough to kill just about anyone, tank or squishy.
I've been experimenting with W>Q>E. Having your gap closer on a 6s CD compared to a 14 s CD is extremely strong. Its 3.6s at max cdr, as a jungle it feels better to me than E as sticking to a target is you #1 struggle.
devourer tabis frozen heart randuins thornmail and just wreck their ADC if they don't have strong magic damage. Lategame I go BOTRK if I need more punch. I've also gone banshee/hexdrinker/locket and remove their AP from the game.
Late game you become pretty godlike in skirmishes, like absolutely wrecking a 12-4 Diana in a 1v1 godlike. Squishy or tank doesn't matter with that much true damage.
You probably get mad heals too. Prolly AP Xin-like Heals.
On July 18 2015 15:38 Sufficiency wrote: I don't see why you would want Seraph instead of RoA unless you enjoy being instantly blown up.
When you get RoA you blow up regardless
It gives less HP Base by 30% than before and less HP per level.
I think the idea is once you go for Seraph's, you lock yourself into Rylai's for the HP. Seraph's gives a lot more AP now, not that Karthus has mad ratios. Zhonya's being cheaper is nice for him. Liandry's is more of an option now too.
That said, Karthus is always Karthus. He still functions the same way he always has. ARAM was never really a good environment for him and I can't see much difference on Summoner's Rift.
On July 18 2015 16:37 cLutZ wrote: The problem with Karthus is the existence of Viktor.
nah, the problem with Karthus is that shit like Braum, Mao, Graggy, Reksai, etc exist: Mobile Tank Lines that have hard CC and gap closers.
Without TP he will never get in a place where he can die and do damage to high priority targets in a fight.
Also, I just did some Irelia testing, Sated Devourer Irelia can Solo baron with a Frozen heart & Ninja Tabis. Might not need the Ninja Tabi, I dunno was a close fight. I Double smited and had a pot ticking. but I think in an actual game, if you could have one meat shield with you it'd be easy to pull off. /shrug
I remember trying to make Irelia work in the Jungle years ago, and I remember her just getting torn to shreds in the jungle in like S2. Maybe she was just really slow with her lack of AoE. Not sure, just remember thinking she had PvE limits, and therefore couldn't jungle.
Weird to me, cuz now she rips through it at nearly full HP, at a relatively solid speed. With pussy PvE runes, I finished a full clear completely healthy, can probably Run Movespeed Quints. Which is a short list of champions now a days that I like to use movespeed quints on in the jungle. I think she could likely even be a relatively high tier Cinderhulk jungler too (although maybe not, might have a harder time ganking with the slower clear). Clears pretty well, ganks pretty well, has solid control, is flexible as a champion, gets free tenacity.
When you Q a minion to gap close and refresh Q, it is real real rough for the laner. Get the slow, and even if they flash you right on their nuts still.
Bjergson, as the in game shot caller (IIRC) needs to be an expert on team compositions. Because you have to be an expert on team compositions to know when and how your team can engage and you have to do that to shot call.
Yeh you might have a point. That said, when noone on the team understands team compositions properly, isn't that also the role of the coach to teach them how to play in different scenarios? Creating that knowledge might take time, but Loco has been a year at TSM.
Based on what Regi says about Bjergsen, the latter is constantly willing to learn and thus I think he is definitely open for well-reasoned arguments/analysis about teamcompositions.
Bjergson, as the in game shot caller (IIRC) needs to be an expert on team compositions. Because you have to be an expert on team compositions to know when and how your team can engage and you have to do that to shot call.
Yeh you might have a point. That said, when noone on the team understands team compositions properly, isn't that also the role of the coach to teach them how to play in different scenarios? Creating that knowledge might take time, but Loco has been a year at TSM.
Based on what Regi says about Bjergsen, the latter is constantly willing to learn and thus I think he is definitely open for well-reasoned arguments/analysis about teamcompositions.
Problem with bjerg is he has too much on his plate.He has to basically be the shotcaller/the carry/the emotional leader/the one who questions the coach.It isn't a coincidence his shotcalling is based around making santorin/lustboy help him mid.
clearly bjerg should let the inferior players make the calls and let has-been/never-was loco decide on comps works in the wildly different arena of regular sports lol
Problem is who exactly is gonna shotcall if it isn't bjergsen?Let's be honest it's not like bjergsen is a good shotcaller problem is everyone else is even worse at it.
On July 18 2015 13:25 iCanada wrote: Wtf does one build on Karthus now a days? I just rolled him in ARAM.
Man those AP Itemization changes kick him when he was down. RoA nerfs make him noticeably Squishier. Without Sivir he can't even get into the back line to die without flash.
Would be sick engage though if you had a Tahm Kench on your team.
Skip Roa. Rylai's/Liandry's replaces it wholesale. He's now a lot stronger. Tear>Rylai's>Archangel's>Dcap>Liandry's or Void>Whichever you didn't get. Occasionally skip Void for Zhonya's if you need it.
Karthus is probably one of the biggest benefactor's of Liandry's now being godtier, Rylai's being a NLR item, and Seraph's giving a fuckton more AP. He's never built CDR so loved tear anyway, loves the extra health and slow of Rylai, and benefits enormously from Liandry's in any counter-engage scenario.
So I started playing league again. Every single game I have a teammate feeding uncontrollably. What do. Feel like I'm going to be placed in bronze at this rate. Down 3 tiers!
edit: Oh guess placements don't mean that much, went silver 2, so only down a little from last season lol. Went 1-9 ROFL
On July 19 2015 01:37 SagaZ wrote: either embrace it, feed harder than them, start drinking or turn into a god that can hard carry you can pick more than one
Picking all was how I got to 10 minute ARAM queue time. Stay away from picking multiple, makes you carry too hard and too often.
Bjergson, as the in game shot caller (IIRC) needs to be an expert on team compositions. Because you have to be an expert on team compositions to know when and how your team can engage and you have to do that to shot call.
Yeh you might have a point. That said, when noone on the team understands team compositions properly, isn't that also the role of the coach to teach them how to play in different scenarios? Creating that knowledge might take time, but Loco has been a year at TSM.
Based on what Regi says about Bjergsen, the latter is constantly willing to learn and thus I think he is definitely open for well-reasoned arguments/analysis about teamcompositions.
Oh, absolutely. Bjerg needs to be an expert to shot call. But he shouldn't be coordinating pick ban because he needs to be using that time to evaluate how to play the game.
If loco can't pick/ban he needs to be let go for someone who can.
It's kind of funny how anal Riot are about "toxic". People are assholes all the time in real life, it's a part of living yet they come up with such insane excuses for not having features based on that. The beautiful thing about online is that you can just mute the guy and never see him again where as most of the time getting rid of an asshole bothering you in real life is rather hard.
On July 19 2015 01:37 SagaZ wrote: either embrace it, feed harder than them, start drinking or turn into a god that can hard carry you can pick more than one
Wise man. I shall do this. It's gotten a bit easier since I got placed.
Ok guys really pls stop comparing irl and the fucking anonymous internet.If you tried to play some games with teenagers who aren't scared of getting beat up on the spot they would behave the same unless there is a specific reason they shouldn't.It isn't a coincidence tons of the people who are toxic online don't behave like that irl.
I honestly think lyte is trolling at this point and trying to see just how much of this bs people will buy.
If only you could press mute and the guy who intentionally fed the last 3 games who is on your team again stopped suiciding at the tower....But no focus on the people who write random words which are "offensive" when you can just make them go away with the press of a button.
Also let's be real most people who play a lot of videogames tend to be nerds angry at the world.Not a surprise they take it out on random people on the internet.
Riot's obsession with chat is cult-like. And let me defend gamers. They are not all nerds angry at the world, and most the time people aren't toxic. And when they are, its usually not chat related, and if it is chat related, its usually because someone else was a jerk in a non-chat way first. The people who seem angry at the world are the chat-crusaders who follow Lyte as if he was Jarvan charging into battle.
I don't know what Thorin said for 2 hours, but Regi is the best legacy owner in the LCS and only TL has an argument to be above him overall in NA (nothing to do with LOL, purely based on esports pedigree), and only Fnatic in EU (certainly the best LCS ownership group by an entire teir). Compared to the Hotshot, the Dig group, original Curse, etc he makes them all look like fools. C9 really failed its first major test as a group, and stuff like Gravity and TiP have never had to make real choices.
On July 19 2015 11:31 cLutZ wrote: I don't know what Thorin said for 2 hours, but Regi is the best legacy owner in the LCS and only TL has an argument to be above him overall in NA (nothing to do with LOL, purely based on esports pedigree), and only Fnatic in EU (certainly the best LCS ownership group by an entire teir). Compared to the Hotshot, the Dig group, original Curse, etc he makes them all look like fools. C9 really failed its first major test as a group, and stuff like Gravity and TiP have never had to make real choices.
Id agree with that.
The biggest thing Thorin is that a coach needs 100% authority. I don't really see how it's fair to Loco that he has doesn't have the final say in pick / bans and macro level strategy and tactic decisions.
Basically he said esports clubs souks have the same structure as a pro sports team; how can you gave your players have a higher authority than your coach? To me that's a joke. If the coach doesn't have 100% authority then you have no point in having them imo... you have players then taking more in their plate than they should.
You never saw Jordan devising offensive and defensive systems on his own. You never saw Gretzky drawing up power play formations. You don't see Allstar quarterbacks picking whether they should go for broke on the 4th down or just punt it...
Why does TSM (and most western esports clubs for that matter) have their players making these decisions? That's not to say they shouldn't have input, but it should be the coaches call.
I just want to know who coordinated the TSM/TIP draft for TSM... because that was absolute shit.
Its a two damage dealer pick comp and two damage dealers are Corki and Twisted Fate... Annie picked into Mao, Nidalee, and Janna [I.E. no good pick targets because its Mao or people standing behind him] which also forces you into a two damage comp because now Shen is guaranteed top and you've already got Gragas. You've either got to pick a damage jungler here or a damage top laner and its not like rumble wasn't open or shyvanna or kayle in the jungle roles!
Then to top it off, they've got a guaranteed two damage magic damage stacked comp and they pick TF. OK, i get it, utilize the double global ultimate, make picks and snowball. But you've got no one to do damage when you make that double global pick! Shen and TF coming in doesn't cut it unless they come in to provide CC for a champion that actually does a lot of damage. And all the enemy team has to do is build one MR item and the rest of your team does nothing!
Frankly TSM, besides trying to pick Maokai a lot, played out of their mind on the map to stay in that game. But they never had a chance because they were a pick comp that didn't have a way to kill the targets they picked, they were single damage type with two low damage champions* and no lategame scaling playing into three damage high peel.
*Well Corki has great mid game damage, but is mainly good for siege/poke. He relies too much on magic damage to make him powerful to be considered "high damage" in a composition which is all magic damage dealers. Had say, Zed been picked he could have been OK.
You never saw Jordan devising offensive and defensive systems on his own. You never saw Gretzky drawing up power play formations. You don't see Allstar quarterbacks picking whether they should go for broke on the 4th down or just punt it...
Why does TSM (and most western esports clubs for that matter) have their players making these decisions? That's not to say they shouldn't have input, but it should be the coaches call.
Yea, but LeBron did basically coach the Cavaliers this season.[and did damned well at it too].
The reason LBJ was coaching the Cavs is the same reason why Loco doesn't have authority on TSM. Loco doesn't know what he is doing.
On July 18 2015 16:37 cLutZ wrote: The problem with Karthus is the existence of Viktor.
nah, the problem with Karthus is that shit like Braum, Mao, Graggy, Reksai, etc exist: Mobile Tank Lines that have hard CC and gap closers.
Without TP he will never get in a place where he can die and do damage to high priority targets in a fight.
Also, I just did some Irelia testing, Sated Devourer Irelia can Solo baron with a Frozen heart & Ninja Tabis. Might not need the Ninja Tabi, I dunno was a close fight. I Double smited and had a pot ticking. but I think in an actual game, if you could have one meat shield with you it'd be easy to pull off. /shrug
I remember trying to make Irelia work in the Jungle years ago, and I remember her just getting torn to shreds in the jungle in like S2. Maybe she was just really slow with her lack of AoE. Not sure, just remember thinking she had PvE limits, and therefore couldn't jungle.
Weird to me, cuz now she rips through it at nearly full HP, at a relatively solid speed. With pussy PvE runes, I finished a full clear completely healthy, can probably Run Movespeed Quints. Which is a short list of champions now a days that I like to use movespeed quints on in the jungle. I think she could likely even be a relatively high tier Cinderhulk jungler too (although maybe not, might have a harder time ganking with the slower clear). Clears pretty well, ganks pretty well, has solid control, is flexible as a champion, gets free tenacity.
When you Q a minion to gap close and refresh Q, it is real real rough for the laner. Get the slow, and even if they flash you right on their nuts still.
I like her. Thank you Sob3k.
Yeah you would have had to have tried her sometime in S1 or early S2. I think her sustain has been ok since then if you max W.
I think Irelia just didn't have a jungling kit like someone like Nocturne or Rengar who can bypass wards, or Rek'Sai who has the manueverability to move around the map to gank, or the clear speeds of Shyvana or Phoenix Udyr. So since she was a jack of all trades, master of none, she didn't see play in the jungle. She's great in top where she's a great duelist and has the chasing potential to deal with ranged tops. She was balanced for top lane so her winrate was just higher there than in the jungle.
Now that Sated exists though, she has better scaling with smite than she did before. So now she's actually worth picking as a jungler. I tried a Sated Jax and felt really strong, and I feel like Irelia and Jax play similarly.
I think Volibear gets the most potential dps increase from Sated. But in the past I know I've had difficulty surviving fights to make use of on-hit builds. Like I often felt squishy just building one offensive item because I didn't have an instant gap closer to get to priority targets.
On July 19 2015 11:31 cLutZ wrote: I don't know what Thorin said for 2 hours, but Regi is the best legacy owner in the LCS and only TL has an argument to be above him overall in NA (nothing to do with LOL, purely based on esports pedigree), and only Fnatic in EU (certainly the best LCS ownership group by an entire teir). Compared to the Hotshot, the Dig group, original Curse, etc he makes them all look like fools. C9 really failed its first major test as a group, and stuff like Gravity and TiP have never had to make real choices.
Id agree with that.
The biggest thing Thorin is that a coach needs 100% authority. I don't really see how it's fair to Loco that he has doesn't have the final say in pick / bans and macro level strategy and tactic decisions.
Basically he said esports clubs souks have the same structure as a pro sports team; how can you gave your players have a higher authority than your coach? To me that's a joke. If the coach doesn't have 100% authority then you have no point in having them imo... you have players then taking more in their plate than they should.
You never saw Jordan devising offensive and defensive systems on his own. You never saw Gretzky drawing up power play formations. You don't see Allstar quarterbacks picking whether they should go for broke on the 4th down or just punt it...
Why does TSM (and most western esports clubs for that matter) have their players making these decisions? That's not to say they shouldn't have input, but it should be the coaches call.
I don't know what they pay Locodoco. However, this is one of America's structural Esports disadvantages. To get a competent coach that you would want to elevate above the players you are talking at least $80k. In California, thats actually $120k (why I thought Curse's great move was going to Vegas for cheaper everything, at least as an experiment). That is money that can't go to players, and I don't know what the tradeoff is in the end. Those numbers are huge compared to South Korea and China. In addition, LOL-specifically NA doesn't have the home-grown talent, so you need to dedicate even more money to buying the best domestic, and importing the best foreign talent.
Just seems to me that the standards some in NA set are higher than the money and native talent in NA can achieve. Like, could an all-star team of NA players that worked together from December-Worlds even compete with SKT? EDG? Fnatic?
Does anyone know how to play Tahm Kench? I feel so useless in lane and in teamfight. I rarely get to use my three stack mechanics. Missing one Q pretty much means you failed to peel and the teammate you're trying to protect as well as whomever is diving him is gonna runaway from you.
On July 19 2015 12:15 AsianEcksDragon wrote: Does anyone know how to play Tahm Kench? I feel so useless in lane and in teamfight. I rarely get to use my three stack mechanics. Missing one Q pretty much means you failed to peel and the teammate you're trying to protect as well as whomever is diving him is gonna runaway from you.
He's got pretty shitty winrates. Just play more games as him or skip playing him until his inevitable buffs.
On July 19 2015 11:31 cLutZ wrote: I don't know what Thorin said for 2 hours, but Regi is the best legacy owner in the LCS and only TL has an argument to be above him overall in NA (nothing to do with LOL, purely based on esports pedigree), and only Fnatic in EU (certainly the best LCS ownership group by an entire teir). Compared to the Hotshot, the Dig group, original Curse, etc he makes them all look like fools. C9 really failed its first major test as a group, and stuff like Gravity and TiP have never had to make real choices.
Id agree with that.
The biggest thing Thorin is that a coach needs 100% authority. I don't really see how it's fair to Loco that he has doesn't have the final say in pick / bans and macro level strategy and tactic decisions.
Basically he said esports clubs souks have the same structure as a pro sports team; how can you gave your players have a higher authority than your coach? To me that's a joke. If the coach doesn't have 100% authority then you have no point in having them imo... you have players then taking more in their plate than they should.
You never saw Jordan devising offensive and defensive systems on his own. You never saw Gretzky drawing up power play formations. You don't see Allstar quarterbacks picking whether they should go for broke on the 4th down or just punt it...
Why does TSM (and most western esports clubs for that matter) have their players making these decisions? That's not to say they shouldn't have input, but it should be the coaches call.
I don't know what they pay Locodoco. However, this is one of America's structural Esports disadvantages. To get a competent coach that you would want to elevate above the players you are talking at least $80k. In California, thats actually $120k (why I thought Curse's great move was going to Vegas for cheaper everything, at least as an experiment). That is money that can't go to players, and I don't know what the tradeoff is in the end. Those numbers are huge compared to South Korea and China. In addition, LOL-specifically NA doesn't have the home-grown talent, so you need to dedicate even more money to buying the best domestic, and importing the best foreign talent.
Just seems to me that the standards some in NA set are higher than the money and native talent in NA can achieve. Like, could an all-star team of NA players that worked together from December-Worlds even compete with SKT? EDG? Fnatic?
If you think TSM can't afford that than I dont know what to tell you. The TSM brand is incredibly popular... they get millions of page views every month, they sell a ton of merchandise... I know TSM likely gets cuts of its players streaming income.
TSM has like a metric ton of corporate sponsors as well.
I bet Regi could easily poach coaching staff or afford to have an executive structure like pro sports. Obviously it would be smaller than what you see on an NFL team, but like paying 5 to 6 staffers is not unreasonable, especially for how much success it could bring them.=
I also think they should be doing more to develop new talent. You don't have to pay major money to recruit the best available, create a farm system.... you know like every pro sport club ever.
On July 19 2015 12:15 AsianEcksDragon wrote: Does anyone know how to play Tahm Kench? I feel so useless in lane and in teamfight. I rarely get to use my three stack mechanics. Missing one Q pretty much means you failed to peel and the teammate you're trying to protect as well as whomever is diving him is gonna runaway from you.
I actually hate support Tahm, but as a farming top laner I find that he has an absurdly strong scaling passive. In the category of hyper lategame tanks, he might be the highest damaging one.
He's a mediocre support. I think you'd need to only pick him into melees. Ranged champs will just poke you endlessly. Decent top if you pick him into anything that's going to try to kill you. His E and W are the biggest cockblocks in the game. It's kind of hilarious how badly Riven does against him. Other bruisers wouldn't fare better. Gnar's an exception. From there, you're basically Shen but trading CC for damage. Having no mobility sucks hard. RG is probably crucial. W makes tank fights easier, but that's more after lane-phase.
In general, every item you buy should have HP. RG/Randuin's/SV->Sunfire or BV->Frozen Mallet. People are building RoA on him. No wonder his winrate's shit. Same with Warmog's. Mallet's better in every way, and RoA is too stupid for words. If you, for some awful reason, wanted AP, go build a Rylai's.
From there, it's mostly who you eat. W is basically his whole kit. There's a lot of little shit you can do. Pick a teammate up to get a speed buff for you both, W any melee jumping on your carries' face. W to chunk someone who was near you too long. Spit out minions/jungle monsters for a fuckton of damage in lane or any lane/jungle fight. W and Q also do not consume the stacks of his passive.
I'm torn between Q and W level in bot. W's more damage and 4 seconds off the CD, but the Q slow is nice. Leaning towards W. In top, I'd almost always go W. Fight around the wave. Any trade they take is probably going to suck; if you get two AAs and a Q/W off, congratulations, you win the lane. You'll also single-handedly turn most any countergank situation if they've let you get three stacks.
In general, I don't think he's a versatile champ. But what he's good at (extended fights, having a global, saving people), he's pretty good at.
On July 19 2015 11:31 cLutZ wrote: I don't know what Thorin said for 2 hours, but Regi is the best legacy owner in the LCS and only TL has an argument to be above him overall in NA (nothing to do with LOL, purely based on esports pedigree), and only Fnatic in EU (certainly the best LCS ownership group by an entire teir). Compared to the Hotshot, the Dig group, original Curse, etc he makes them all look like fools. C9 really failed its first major test as a group, and stuff like Gravity and TiP have never had to make real choices.
Id agree with that.
The biggest thing Thorin is that a coach needs 100% authority. I don't really see how it's fair to Loco that he has doesn't have the final say in pick / bans and macro level strategy and tactic decisions.
Basically he said esports clubs souks have the same structure as a pro sports team; how can you gave your players have a higher authority than your coach? To me that's a joke. If the coach doesn't have 100% authority then you have no point in having them imo... you have players then taking more in their plate than they should.
You never saw Jordan devising offensive and defensive systems on his own. You never saw Gretzky drawing up power play formations. You don't see Allstar quarterbacks picking whether they should go for broke on the 4th down or just punt it...
Why does TSM (and most western esports clubs for that matter) have their players making these decisions? That's not to say they shouldn't have input, but it should be the coaches call.
I don't know what they pay Locodoco. However, this is one of America's structural Esports disadvantages. To get a competent coach that you would want to elevate above the players you are talking at least $80k. In California, thats actually $120k (why I thought Curse's great move was going to Vegas for cheaper everything, at least as an experiment). That is money that can't go to players, and I don't know what the tradeoff is in the end. Those numbers are huge compared to South Korea and China. In addition, LOL-specifically NA doesn't have the home-grown talent, so you need to dedicate even more money to buying the best domestic, and importing the best foreign talent.
Just seems to me that the standards some in NA set are higher than the money and native talent in NA can achieve. Like, could an all-star team of NA players that worked together from December-Worlds even compete with SKT? EDG? Fnatic?
If you think TSM can't afford that than I dont know what to tell you. The TSM brand is incredibly popular... they get millions of page views every month, they sell a ton of merchandise... I know TSM likely gets cuts of its players streaming income.
TSM has like a metric ton of corporate sponsors as well.
I bet Regi could easily poach coaching staff or afford to have an executive structure like pro sports. Obviously it would be smaller than what you see on an NFL team, but like paying 5 to 6 staffers is not unreasonable, especially for how much success it could bring them.=
I also think they should be doing more to develop new talent. You don't have to pay major money to recruit the best available, create a farm system.... you know like every pro sport club ever.
Here is something: Esports money. That I fully admit I know nothing about. But i think developing new talent might be harder than you do.
I don't know much about Tahm since I haven't played him, but doesn't the restriction on his trades requiring him get 3 stacks of his passive to swallow an enemy make it hard for him to come ahead of small harass trades?
Tried ganking a Tahm top. His tankiness is bs. Either you and your ally need to time your burst simultaneously or he'll activate his E shield and mitigate all your burst.
On July 19 2015 14:02 obesechicken13 wrote: I don't know much about Tahm since I haven't played him, but doesn't the restriction on his trades requiring him get 3 stacks of his passive to swallow an enemy make it hard for him to come ahead of small harass trades?
Tried ganking a Tahm top. His tankiness is bs. Either you and your ally need to time your burst simultaneously or he'll activate his E shield and mitigate all your burst.
On July 19 2015 13:05 sob3k wrote: He seem really strong top to me, he's fucking impossible to kill and wins every trade longer than one auto. Then scales quite well and has a sick ult.
I dunno how well he actually scales.
I think he has a certain lack of oomph when fed, personally. More of an Alistair than a Maokai, personally.
After like 10-12k gold I think he starts to be quite meh with more farm. Although I only have like 9 games on him.
On July 19 2015 11:31 cLutZ wrote: I don't know what Thorin said for 2 hours, but Regi is the best legacy owner in the LCS and only TL has an argument to be above him overall in NA (nothing to do with LOL, purely based on esports pedigree), and only Fnatic in EU (certainly the best LCS ownership group by an entire teir). Compared to the Hotshot, the Dig group, original Curse, etc he makes them all look like fools. C9 really failed its first major test as a group, and stuff like Gravity and TiP have never had to make real choices.
Id agree with that.
The biggest thing Thorin is that a coach needs 100% authority. I don't really see how it's fair to Loco that he has doesn't have the final say in pick / bans and macro level strategy and tactic decisions.
Basically he said esports clubs souks have the same structure as a pro sports team; how can you gave your players have a higher authority than your coach? To me that's a joke. If the coach doesn't have 100% authority then you have no point in having them imo... you have players then taking more in their plate than they should.
You never saw Jordan devising offensive and defensive systems on his own. You never saw Gretzky drawing up power play formations. You don't see Allstar quarterbacks picking whether they should go for broke on the 4th down or just punt it...
Why does TSM (and most western esports clubs for that matter) have their players making these decisions? That's not to say they shouldn't have input, but it should be the coaches call.
I don't know what they pay Locodoco. However, this is one of America's structural Esports disadvantages. To get a competent coach that you would want to elevate above the players you are talking at least $80k. In California, thats actually $120k (why I thought Curse's great move was going to Vegas for cheaper everything, at least as an experiment). That is money that can't go to players, and I don't know what the tradeoff is in the end. Those numbers are huge compared to South Korea and China. In addition, LOL-specifically NA doesn't have the home-grown talent, so you need to dedicate even more money to buying the best domestic, and importing the best foreign talent.
Just seems to me that the standards some in NA set are higher than the money and native talent in NA can achieve. Like, could an all-star team of NA players that worked together from December-Worlds even compete with SKT? EDG? Fnatic?
If you think TSM can't afford that than I dont know what to tell you. The TSM brand is incredibly popular... they get millions of page views every month, they sell a ton of merchandise... I know TSM likely gets cuts of its players streaming income.
TSM has like a metric ton of corporate sponsors as well.
I bet Regi could easily poach coaching staff or afford to have an executive structure like pro sports. Obviously it would be smaller than what you see on an NFL team, but like paying 5 to 6 staffers is not unreasonable, especially for how much success it could bring them.=
I also think they should be doing more to develop new talent. You don't have to pay major money to recruit the best available, create a farm system.... you know like every pro sport club ever.
Here is something: Esports money. That I fully admit I know nothing about. But i think developing new talent might be harder than you do.
I dont think it would be easy...
But I mean certainly as cost effective if not more cost effective than bidding for the highest most proven available Free Agent. I think there is lots of talent in NA. You get an ex pro player like say Saintvicious/QT/etc to vet random soloqueue players, talk to them, look for guys who aren't just pub players and can play well in the 5v5 environment.
You put them on a 5v5 ranked team, maybe coach them for free for a couple months. If you like their skills, you like their drive, you like how they listen and interact in a 5v5 you put them on a Challenger team you own and then you have an asset that otherwise would have never existed. Instead of gambling on random high level challenger players or recycling talent, you take those same random challenger players and train them. they stay with yiou because you are giving them a shot, and you give them a shot and invest training into them because maybe you find a talent in the rough.
Western teams dont even really scout; on multiple occasions teams like Curse, TSM, CLG etc would just post they were looking for a player and they would ask people to apply for tryouts. Silly. I think you spend less time sifting through random applications and you create a list of a few players you are interested in.
it is well known in other MOBA's that pub play and 5v5 play are totally different.. yet for some reason LoL organizations ignore this train of thought and consistently just pick up high ladder soloqueue players like incarnation.
On July 19 2015 13:05 sob3k wrote: He seem really strong top to me, he's fucking impossible to kill and wins every trade longer than one auto. Then scales quite well and has a sick ult.
I dunno how well he actually scales.
I think he has a certain lack of oomph when fed, personally. More of an Alistair than a Maokai, personally.
After like 10-12k gold I think he starts to be quite meh with more farm. Although I only have like 9 games on him.
On July 19 2015 11:31 cLutZ wrote: I don't know what Thorin said for 2 hours, but Regi is the best legacy owner in the LCS and only TL has an argument to be above him overall in NA (nothing to do with LOL, purely based on esports pedigree), and only Fnatic in EU (certainly the best LCS ownership group by an entire teir). Compared to the Hotshot, the Dig group, original Curse, etc he makes them all look like fools. C9 really failed its first major test as a group, and stuff like Gravity and TiP have never had to make real choices.
Id agree with that.
The biggest thing Thorin is that a coach needs 100% authority. I don't really see how it's fair to Loco that he has doesn't have the final say in pick / bans and macro level strategy and tactic decisions.
Basically he said esports clubs souks have the same structure as a pro sports team; how can you gave your players have a higher authority than your coach? To me that's a joke. If the coach doesn't have 100% authority then you have no point in having them imo... you have players then taking more in their plate than they should.
You never saw Jordan devising offensive and defensive systems on his own. You never saw Gretzky drawing up power play formations. You don't see Allstar quarterbacks picking whether they should go for broke on the 4th down or just punt it...
Why does TSM (and most western esports clubs for that matter) have their players making these decisions? That's not to say they shouldn't have input, but it should be the coaches call.
I don't know what they pay Locodoco. However, this is one of America's structural Esports disadvantages. To get a competent coach that you would want to elevate above the players you are talking at least $80k. In California, thats actually $120k (why I thought Curse's great move was going to Vegas for cheaper everything, at least as an experiment). That is money that can't go to players, and I don't know what the tradeoff is in the end. Those numbers are huge compared to South Korea and China. In addition, LOL-specifically NA doesn't have the home-grown talent, so you need to dedicate even more money to buying the best domestic, and importing the best foreign talent.
Just seems to me that the standards some in NA set are higher than the money and native talent in NA can achieve. Like, could an all-star team of NA players that worked together from December-Worlds even compete with SKT? EDG? Fnatic?
If you think TSM can't afford that than I dont know what to tell you. The TSM brand is incredibly popular... they get millions of page views every month, they sell a ton of merchandise... I know TSM likely gets cuts of its players streaming income.
TSM has like a metric ton of corporate sponsors as well.
I bet Regi could easily poach coaching staff or afford to have an executive structure like pro sports. Obviously it would be smaller than what you see on an NFL team, but like paying 5 to 6 staffers is not unreasonable, especially for how much success it could bring them.=
I also think they should be doing more to develop new talent. You don't have to pay major money to recruit the best available, create a farm system.... you know like every pro sport club ever.
Here is something: Esports money. That I fully admit I know nothing about. But i think developing new talent might be harder than you do.
I dont think it would be easy...
But I mean certainly as cost effective if not more cost effective than bidding for the highest most proven available Free Agent. I think there is lots of talent in NA. You get an ex pro player like say Saintvicious/QT/etc to vet random soloqueue players, talk to them, look for guys who aren't just pub players and can play well in the 5v5 environment.
You put them on a 5v5 ranked team, maybe coach them for free for a couple months. If you like their skills, you like their drive, you like how they listen and interact in a 5v5 you put them on a Challenger team you own and then you have an asset that otherwise would have never existed. Instead of gambling on random high level challenger players or recycling talent, you take those same random challenger players and train them. they stay with yiou because you are giving them a shot, and you give them a shot and invest training into them because maybe you find a talent in the rough.
Western teams dont even really scout; on multiple occasions teams like Curse, TSM, CLG etc would just post they were looking for a player and they would ask people to apply for tryouts. Silly. I think you spend less time sifting through random applications and you create a list of a few players you are interested in.
it is well known in other MOBA's that pub play and 5v5 play are totally different.. yet for some reason LoL organizations ignore this train of thought and consistently just pick up high ladder soloqueue players like incarnation.
Being honest, I really can't tell the difference. There is a high correlation between the two in Korea, and the players who dont translate are almost always the players who get picked up by incompetent orgs. Same with EU, just Incarnation had a ridiculous delay.
As Volibear with Sated Devourer I was able to 1v2 a few times. Which isn't odd for a fed Volibear, I just feel sated devourer is broken and this is another data point.
I think it's time for me to quit this game for this season. While losing 8 games in a row and demoting to Platinum 4 is very disheartening (especially when I feel 6 of the games weren't my fault at all), the problem here is that I think I won't realistically be able to hit Diamond. I did get to Platinum 1 and 2 on both of my accounts at certain points, but I probably just got lucky.
Time to clean up and do something more productive instead. I still have several backtracked projects I want to work on and maybe make a website....
On July 19 2015 17:15 Sufficiency wrote: I think it's time for me to quit this game for this season. While losing 8 games in a row and demoting to Platinum 4 is very disheartening (especially when I feel 6 of the games weren't my fault at all), the problem here is that I think I won't realistically be able to hit Diamond. I did get to Platinum 1 and 2 on both of my accounts at certain points, but I probably just got lucky.
Time to clean up and do something more productive instead. I still have several backtracked projects I want to work on and maybe make a website....
Play for fun dude. But yeah, come back when you're happy with your projects. I think I have my own I should work on before coming back to league too.
On July 19 2015 13:05 sob3k wrote: He seem really strong top to me, he's fucking impossible to kill and wins every trade longer than one auto. Then scales quite well and has a sick ult.
I dunno how well he actually scales.
I think he has a certain lack of oomph when fed, personally. More of an Alistair than a Maokai, personally.
After like 10-12k gold I think he starts to be quite meh with more farm. Although I only have like 9 games on him.
On July 19 2015 13:30 cLutZ wrote:
On July 19 2015 12:36 iCanada wrote:
On July 19 2015 12:14 cLutZ wrote:
On July 19 2015 11:50 iCanada wrote:
On July 19 2015 11:31 cLutZ wrote: I don't know what Thorin said for 2 hours, but Regi is the best legacy owner in the LCS and only TL has an argument to be above him overall in NA (nothing to do with LOL, purely based on esports pedigree), and only Fnatic in EU (certainly the best LCS ownership group by an entire teir). Compared to the Hotshot, the Dig group, original Curse, etc he makes them all look like fools. C9 really failed its first major test as a group, and stuff like Gravity and TiP have never had to make real choices.
Id agree with that.
The biggest thing Thorin is that a coach needs 100% authority. I don't really see how it's fair to Loco that he has doesn't have the final say in pick / bans and macro level strategy and tactic decisions.
Basically he said esports clubs souks have the same structure as a pro sports team; how can you gave your players have a higher authority than your coach? To me that's a joke. If the coach doesn't have 100% authority then you have no point in having them imo... you have players then taking more in their plate than they should.
You never saw Jordan devising offensive and defensive systems on his own. You never saw Gretzky drawing up power play formations. You don't see Allstar quarterbacks picking whether they should go for broke on the 4th down or just punt it...
Why does TSM (and most western esports clubs for that matter) have their players making these decisions? That's not to say they shouldn't have input, but it should be the coaches call.
I don't know what they pay Locodoco. However, this is one of America's structural Esports disadvantages. To get a competent coach that you would want to elevate above the players you are talking at least $80k. In California, thats actually $120k (why I thought Curse's great move was going to Vegas for cheaper everything, at least as an experiment). That is money that can't go to players, and I don't know what the tradeoff is in the end. Those numbers are huge compared to South Korea and China. In addition, LOL-specifically NA doesn't have the home-grown talent, so you need to dedicate even more money to buying the best domestic, and importing the best foreign talent.
Just seems to me that the standards some in NA set are higher than the money and native talent in NA can achieve. Like, could an all-star team of NA players that worked together from December-Worlds even compete with SKT? EDG? Fnatic?
If you think TSM can't afford that than I dont know what to tell you. The TSM brand is incredibly popular... they get millions of page views every month, they sell a ton of merchandise... I know TSM likely gets cuts of its players streaming income.
TSM has like a metric ton of corporate sponsors as well.
I bet Regi could easily poach coaching staff or afford to have an executive structure like pro sports. Obviously it would be smaller than what you see on an NFL team, but like paying 5 to 6 staffers is not unreasonable, especially for how much success it could bring them.=
I also think they should be doing more to develop new talent. You don't have to pay major money to recruit the best available, create a farm system.... you know like every pro sport club ever.
Here is something: Esports money. That I fully admit I know nothing about. But i think developing new talent might be harder than you do.
I dont think it would be easy...
But I mean certainly as cost effective if not more cost effective than bidding for the highest most proven available Free Agent. I think there is lots of talent in NA. You get an ex pro player like say Saintvicious/QT/etc to vet random soloqueue players, talk to them, look for guys who aren't just pub players and can play well in the 5v5 environment.
You put them on a 5v5 ranked team, maybe coach them for free for a couple months. If you like their skills, you like their drive, you like how they listen and interact in a 5v5 you put them on a Challenger team you own and then you have an asset that otherwise would have never existed. Instead of gambling on random high level challenger players or recycling talent, you take those same random challenger players and train them. they stay with yiou because you are giving them a shot, and you give them a shot and invest training into them because maybe you find a talent in the rough.
Western teams dont even really scout; on multiple occasions teams like Curse, TSM, CLG etc would just post they were looking for a player and they would ask people to apply for tryouts. Silly. I think you spend less time sifting through random applications and you create a list of a few players you are interested in.
it is well known in other MOBA's that pub play and 5v5 play are totally different.. yet for some reason LoL organizations ignore this train of thought and consistently just pick up high ladder soloqueue players like incarnation.
Being honest, I really can't tell the difference. There is a high correlation between the two in Korea, and the players who dont translate are almost always the players who get picked up by incompetent orgs. Same with EU, just Incarnation had a ridiculous delay.
Maybe, just maybe... the good organizations take the good 5v5 players and the bad organizations take the pub players?
lol.
There area huge amount of skills that are totally different.
On July 19 2015 12:15 AsianEcksDragon wrote: Does anyone know how to play Tahm Kench? I feel so useless in lane and in teamfight. I rarely get to use my three stack mechanics. Missing one Q pretty much means you failed to peel and the teammate you're trying to protect as well as whomever is diving him is gonna runaway from you.
Catfish as a support really feels like he needs to be picked with certain comps or against certain comps. If you're playing a team with multiple skillshots (or just mid Ezreal) his Devourer means you're 100% to hit them all - just spam ping where you throw your target up. He works really good as a counter to champions like Zed, Vi and Yasuo since he can just counter their ult with a ~10s cooldown ability.
His laning phase (supporting) is ehhh not the greatest that being said he is an "ok" bodyguard, but he feels somewhat ok with Ashe since it's so easy to get the stacks, you give her somewhat mobility/safety and again the skillshot (ult chain cc) synergy. As support I think it's best to think of him early as a low CD Hourglass++.
Four runes AS reds and MS quints seem almost mandatory otherwise it's really hard to consistently get the stacks, for the first time there's a champion I actually think Swifties are somewhat decent on. It's fun to have a support that can easily handle super minions.
He scales so hard with farm, I think he's better as a toplaner tho.
On July 19 2015 17:15 Sufficiency wrote: I think it's time for me to quit this game for this season. While losing 8 games in a row and demoting to Platinum 4 is very disheartening (especially when I feel 6 of the games weren't my fault at all), the problem here is that I think I won't realistically be able to hit Diamond. I did get to Platinum 1 and 2 on both of my accounts at certain points, but I probably just got lucky.
Time to clean up and do something more productive instead. I still have several backtracked projects I want to work on and maybe make a website....
Play for fun dude. But yeah, come back when you're happy with your projects. I think I have my own I should work on before coming back to league too.
On July 19 2015 15:45 cLutZ wrote: Being honest, I really can't tell the difference. There is a high correlation between the two in Korea, and the players who dont translate are almost always the players who get picked up by incompetent orgs. Same with EU, just Incarnation had a ridiculous delay.
Korea probably already does the kind of scouting that iCanada mentions. The only solo queue players who you'd even see on successful competitive teams are already the ones that have been filtered out, so of course the correlation is high. The big orgs probably wouldn't even let a pubstar who couldn't transition reasonably well even reach a televised game.
On July 19 2015 15:45 cLutZ wrote: Being honest, I really can't tell the difference. There is a high correlation between the two in Korea, and the players who dont translate are almost always the players who get picked up by incompetent orgs. Same with EU, just Incarnation had a ridiculous delay.
Korea probably already does the kind of scouting that iCanada mentions. The only solo queue players who you'd even see on successful competitive teams are already the ones that have been filtered out, so of course the correlation is high. The big orgs probably wouldn't even let a pubstar who couldn't transition reasonably well even reach a televised game.
only difference is in kr there are a lot of people who get to play 2/3 games and if it doesnt work out we don't see them for weeks or ever which doesn't happen in the west.People generally if they get on the team they play a season unless it is insanely bad.
On July 19 2015 15:45 cLutZ wrote: Being honest, I really can't tell the difference. There is a high correlation between the two in Korea, and the players who dont translate are almost always the players who get picked up by incompetent orgs. Same with EU, just Incarnation had a ridiculous delay.
Korea probably already does the kind of scouting that iCanada mentions. The only solo queue players who you'd even see on successful competitive teams are already the ones that have been filtered out, so of course the correlation is high. The big orgs probably wouldn't even let a pubstar who couldn't transition reasonably well even reach a televised game.
only difference is in kr there are a lot of people who get to play 2/3 games and if it doesnt work out we don't see them for weeks or ever which doesn't happen in the west.People generally if they get on the team they play a season unless it is insanely bad.
On July 19 2015 17:15 Sufficiency wrote: I think it's time for me to quit this game for this season. While losing 8 games in a row and demoting to Platinum 4 is very disheartening (especially when I feel 6 of the games weren't my fault at all), the problem here is that I think I won't realistically be able to hit Diamond. I did get to Platinum 1 and 2 on both of my accounts at certain points, but I probably just got lucky.
Time to clean up and do something more productive instead. I still have several backtracked projects I want to work on and maybe make a website....
Play for fun dude. But yeah, come back when you're happy with your projects. I think I have my own I should work on before coming back to league too.
On July 19 2015 15:45 cLutZ wrote: Being honest, I really can't tell the difference. There is a high correlation between the two in Korea, and the players who dont translate are almost always the players who get picked up by incompetent orgs. Same with EU, just Incarnation had a ridiculous delay.
Korea probably already does the kind of scouting that iCanada mentions. The only solo queue players who you'd even see on successful competitive teams are already the ones that have been filtered out, so of course the correlation is high. The big orgs probably wouldn't even let a pubstar who couldn't transition reasonably well even reach a televised game.
only difference is in kr there are a lot of people who get to play 2/3 games and if it doesnt work out we don't see them for weeks or ever which doesn't happen in the west.People generally if they get on the team they play a season unless it is insanely bad.
Thats my point though...
Why the hell don't Western teams have strong farm systems to replace guys like that? There is no reason not to. It creates competition for roster spots, creates a strong internal practice environment for scrims, lane matchups, tactical ideas, etc.
Look at SKT... they are a top tier team even when the BEST PLAYER IN THE WORLD sits on the damn bench because they developed another amazing Mid laner in Easyhoon. What happens to TSM if Bjergson couldn't play for some reason?
On July 20 2015 02:46 krndandaman wrote: can anyone confirm for me whether dragon assists give devourer stacks or not?
my team was yelling at me for killing dragon because they said jungler doesn't get devourer stacks if someone else kills it. I couldn't check his stacks beforehand but they swore it didn't.
I'm pretty sure patchnotes said you get stacks from dragon assists.
are they right and did riot fk up or did they just not read patchnotes?
Wiki says they should; so do the patch notes. If they don't, it's a bug.
When you go 21/9 or 0/9/21 or whatever with 9 in defense tree, isn't it better now like in most cases to have your 9th point in Tenacious (10% CC reduction) than in Juggernaut (+3% health) ??
Yes 10% tenacity is almost always better than 3% HP because it stacks on mercs, even if you play a HP stacking champ like volibear, 4k HP= 120 extra HP =/= 10% tenacity IMO
On July 19 2015 12:15 AsianEcksDragon wrote: Does anyone know how to play Tahm Kench? I feel so useless in lane and in teamfight. I rarely get to use my three stack mechanics. Missing one Q pretty much means you failed to peel and the teammate you're trying to protect as well as whomever is diving him is gonna runaway from you.
Catfish as a support really feels like he needs to be picked with certain comps or against certain comps. If you're playing a team with multiple skillshots (or just mid Ezreal) his Devourer means you're 100% to hit them all - just spam ping where you throw your target up. He works really good as a counter to champions like Zed, Vi and Yasuo since he can just counter their ult with a ~10s cooldown ability.
The thing is he counters EVERY assassin with a ~10s cooldown ability.Imo it's retarded beyond, well, anything.
On July 19 2015 12:15 AsianEcksDragon wrote: Does anyone know how to play Tahm Kench? I feel so useless in lane and in teamfight. I rarely get to use my three stack mechanics. Missing one Q pretty much means you failed to peel and the teammate you're trying to protect as well as whomever is diving him is gonna runaway from you.
Catfish as a support really feels like he needs to be picked with certain comps or against certain comps. If you're playing a team with multiple skillshots (or just mid Ezreal) his Devourer means you're 100% to hit them all - just spam ping where you throw your target up. He works really good as a counter to champions like Zed, Vi and Yasuo since he can just counter their ult with a ~10s cooldown ability.
The thing is he counters EVERY assassin with a ~10s cooldown ability.Imo it's retarded beyond, well, anything.
On July 19 2015 12:15 AsianEcksDragon wrote: Does anyone know how to play Tahm Kench? I feel so useless in lane and in teamfight. I rarely get to use my three stack mechanics. Missing one Q pretty much means you failed to peel and the teammate you're trying to protect as well as whomever is diving him is gonna runaway from you.
Catfish as a support really feels like he needs to be picked with certain comps or against certain comps. If you're playing a team with multiple skillshots (or just mid Ezreal) his Devourer means you're 100% to hit them all - just spam ping where you throw your target up. He works really good as a counter to champions like Zed, Vi and Yasuo since he can just counter their ult with a ~10s cooldown ability.
The thing is he counters EVERY assassin with a ~10s cooldown ability.Imo it's retarded beyond, well, anything.
he also is useless other than that.Honestly his ult is very overrated.It takes REALLY long for you to actually appear after the dive.He just doesn't have enough presence without a lot of items to be a support.He can work if played by a very well coordinated team but otherwise just not worth.
On July 20 2015 02:46 krndandaman wrote: can anyone confirm for me whether dragon assists give devourer stacks or not?
my team was yelling at me for killing dragon because they said jungler doesn't get devourer stacks if someone else kills it. I couldn't check his stacks beforehand but they swore it didn't.
I'm pretty sure patchnotes said you get stacks from dragon assists.
are they right and did riot fk up or did they just not read patchnotes?
Wiki says they should; so do the patch notes. If they don't, it's a bug.
I know there was a bug where if there are 2 smites on a team and you smite/kill it jungler doesn't get stacks. so if there's another bug where you don't get stacks even without someone else smiting it, that's pretty bad.
Well, whenever it gets fixed, dragon is supposed to give 5 stacks, which is quite a lot.
On July 19 2015 15:45 cLutZ wrote: Being honest, I really can't tell the difference. There is a high correlation between the two in Korea, and the players who dont translate are almost always the players who get picked up by incompetent orgs. Same with EU, just Incarnation had a ridiculous delay.
Korea probably already does the kind of scouting that iCanada mentions. The only solo queue players who you'd even see on successful competitive teams are already the ones that have been filtered out, so of course the correlation is high. The big orgs probably wouldn't even let a pubstar who couldn't transition reasonably well even reach a televised game.
only difference is in kr there are a lot of people who get to play 2/3 games and if it doesnt work out we don't see them for weeks or ever which doesn't happen in the west.People generally if they get on the team they play a season unless it is insanely bad.
Thats my point though...
Why the hell don't Western teams have strong farm systems to replace guys like that? There is no reason not to. It creates competition for roster spots, creates a strong internal practice environment for scrims, lane matchups, tactical ideas, etc.
Look at SKT... they are a top tier team even when the BEST PLAYER IN THE WORLD sits on the damn bench because they developed another amazing Mid laner in Easyhoon. What happens to TSM if Bjergson couldn't play for some reason?
To be fair, when they were playing Easyhoon a lot Faker was in a huge slump. It's just that Faker is Faker, so a slump meant he was still really good. His play this season until the Summer split is pretty lackluster compared to his play in the summer.
On July 20 2015 02:46 krndandaman wrote: can anyone confirm for me whether dragon assists give devourer stacks or not?
my team was yelling at me for killing dragon because they said jungler doesn't get devourer stacks if someone else kills it. I couldn't check his stacks beforehand but they swore it didn't.
I'm pretty sure patchnotes said you get stacks from dragon assists.
are they right and did riot fk up or did they just not read patchnotes?
It definitely does not. The tool tip says takedowns (kill or assist) on epic monsters give 5 stacks but at this time if you don't get the kill you don't get anything. I'm sure they'll fix it but right now it's not working correctly.
On July 19 2015 12:15 AsianEcksDragon wrote: Does anyone know how to play Tahm Kench? I feel so useless in lane and in teamfight. I rarely get to use my three stack mechanics. Missing one Q pretty much means you failed to peel and the teammate you're trying to protect as well as whomever is diving him is gonna runaway from you.
Catfish as a support really feels like he needs to be picked with certain comps or against certain comps. If you're playing a team with multiple skillshots (or just mid Ezreal) his Devourer means you're 100% to hit them all - just spam ping where you throw your target up. He works really good as a counter to champions like Zed, Vi and Yasuo since he can just counter their ult with a ~10s cooldown ability.
The thing is he counters EVERY assassin with a ~10s cooldown ability.Imo it's retarded beyond, well, anything.
he also is useless other than that.Honestly his ult is very overrated.It takes REALLY long for you to actually appear after the dive.He just doesn't have enough presence without a lot of items to be a support.He can work if played by a very well coordinated team but otherwise just not worth.
The problem is that when you Devour an ally, he is also (for all intents and purposes) CC'ed. So it's not a miracle save like some people expects.
Overall, for better or worse - his kit is not packed like Kalista/Azir/Ekko is. But I almost feels like his kit is actually a little too plain where all of his power is packed into his W only.
He's basically two thirds his W. And his W is really cool.
But I think R being a two-person global is a bit underappreciated, and his E *definitely* is. That E is fucking bonkers and you do too much damage to ignore if you build properly.
The call for him to be support was pretty misguided though.
On July 21 2015 06:22 Sufficiency wrote: Unless his numbers are absolutely terrible (which I don't think they will be), I think the new GP will be played in competitive as a splitpusher.
If his ult is good, he'll get played. If it's not, he won't. Q/W were his crux and are relatively unchanged, and E just makes him functional at splitting compared to old GP.
Good news is his lategame is pretty hilarious-looking and two ult upgrades make it pretty decent.
Also, Riot, why on Earth would I get BT over Hydra?
On July 21 2015 06:22 Sufficiency wrote: Unless his numbers are absolutely terrible (which I don't think they will be), I think the new GP will be played in competitive as a splitpusher.
So... Not played unless his numbers are OP?
Currently, there aren't a lot of good splitpushing top laners (and Shen is pretty slow). I think GP will be a nice addition.
Furthermore, his laning phase is probably excellent for competitive since he can farm using Q and his Q gives him extra gold.
On July 21 2015 06:22 Sufficiency wrote: Unless his numbers are absolutely terrible (which I don't think they will be), I think the new GP will be played in competitive as a splitpusher.
So... Not played unless his numbers are OP?
Currently, there aren't a lot of good splitpushing top laners (and Shen is pretty slow). I think GP will be a nice addition.
Furthermore, his laning phase is probably excellent for competitive since he can farm using Q and his Q gives him extra gold.
I think when compared to Jax/Irelia and other splitpushing tops, you are describing an OP champion executing a Riot-disfavored strategy (splitpushing).
On July 21 2015 06:22 Sufficiency wrote: Unless his numbers are absolutely terrible (which I don't think they will be), I think the new GP will be played in competitive as a splitpusher.
So... Not played unless his numbers are OP?
Currently, there aren't a lot of good splitpushing top laners (and Shen is pretty slow). I think GP will be a nice addition.
Furthermore, his laning phase is probably excellent for competitive since he can farm using Q and his Q gives him extra gold.
I think when compared to Jax/Irelia and other splitpushing tops, you are describing an OP champion executing a Riot-disfavored strategy (splitpushing).
Irelia and Jax can split, sure, but they also struggle with laneswaps.
GP has a ranged Q that allows him to handle laneswaps better.
On July 21 2015 09:35 VayneAuthority wrote: i mean i dont know how fed he was but just the last clip shows promise. One barrel basically destroyed their team i think?
It does the same damage as Parrley, with some kind of bonus armour pen.
On July 21 2015 06:22 Sufficiency wrote: Unless his numbers are absolutely terrible (which I don't think they will be), I think the new GP will be played in competitive as a splitpusher.
So... Not played unless his numbers are OP?
Currently, there aren't a lot of good splitpushing top laners (and Shen is pretty slow). I think GP will be a nice addition.
Furthermore, his laning phase is probably excellent for competitive since he can farm using Q and his Q gives him extra gold.
I think when compared to Jax/Irelia and other splitpushing tops, you are describing an OP champion executing a Riot-disfavored strategy (splitpushing).
Irelia and Jax can split, sure, but they also struggle with laneswaps.
GP has a ranged Q that allows him to handle laneswaps better.
Exactly...you are describing an OP champion (for competitive). There are no tops that handle laneswaps and can splitpush. The closest would be Heacarim, whos splitpushing is really not that great, his laneswap resistance is from good jungling, and he is susceptible to both ganks and lane bullies.
On July 21 2015 06:22 Sufficiency wrote: Unless his numbers are absolutely terrible (which I don't think they will be), I think the new GP will be played in competitive as a splitpusher.
So... Not played unless his numbers are OP?
Currently, there aren't a lot of good splitpushing top laners (and Shen is pretty slow). I think GP will be a nice addition.
Furthermore, his laning phase is probably excellent for competitive since he can farm using Q and his Q gives him extra gold.
I think when compared to Jax/Irelia and other splitpushing tops, you are describing an OP champion executing a Riot-disfavored strategy (splitpushing).
Irelia and Jax can split, sure, but they also struggle with laneswaps.
GP has a ranged Q that allows him to handle laneswaps better.
Exactly...you are describing an OP champion (for competitive). There are no tops that handle laneswaps and can splitpush. The closest would be Heacarim, whos splitpushing is really not that great, his laneswap resistance is from good jungling, and he is susceptible to both ganks and lane bullies.
I honestly do not know where you are getting at but stop analyzing my posts with a microscope.
On July 21 2015 06:22 Sufficiency wrote: Unless his numbers are absolutely terrible (which I don't think they will be), I think the new GP will be played in competitive as a splitpusher.
So... Not played unless his numbers are OP?
Currently, there aren't a lot of good splitpushing top laners (and Shen is pretty slow). I think GP will be a nice addition.
Furthermore, his laning phase is probably excellent for competitive since he can farm using Q and his Q gives him extra gold.
I think when compared to Jax/Irelia and other splitpushing tops, you are describing an OP champion executing a Riot-disfavored strategy (splitpushing).
Irelia and Jax can split, sure, but they also struggle with laneswaps.
GP has a ranged Q that allows him to handle laneswaps better.
Exactly...you are describing an OP champion (for competitive). There are no tops that handle laneswaps and can splitpush. The closest would be Heacarim, whos splitpushing is really not that great, his laneswap resistance is from good jungling, and he is susceptible to both ganks and lane bullies.
yorick and olaf come to mind immediately and used to be picked for that exact reason
On July 21 2015 09:35 VayneAuthority wrote: i mean i dont know how fed he was but just the last clip shows promise. One barrel basically destroyed their team i think?
It does the same damage as Parrley, with some kind of bonus armour pen.
Including whether or not the attack crits. Which can be a lot of damage. I wonder if it includes sheen damage too.
On July 21 2015 06:22 Sufficiency wrote: Unless his numbers are absolutely terrible (which I don't think they will be), I think the new GP will be played in competitive as a splitpusher.
So... Not played unless his numbers are OP?
Currently, there aren't a lot of good splitpushing top laners (and Shen is pretty slow). I think GP will be a nice addition.
Furthermore, his laning phase is probably excellent for competitive since he can farm using Q and his Q gives him extra gold.
I think when compared to Jax/Irelia and other splitpushing tops, you are describing an OP champion executing a Riot-disfavored strategy (splitpushing).
Irelia and Jax can split, sure, but they also struggle with laneswaps.
GP has a ranged Q that allows him to handle laneswaps better.
Exactly...you are describing an OP champion (for competitive). There are no tops that handle laneswaps and can splitpush. The closest would be Heacarim, whos splitpushing is really not that great, his laneswap resistance is from good jungling, and he is susceptible to both ganks and lane bullies.
yorick and olaf come to mind immediately and used to be picked for that exact reason
Well, Yorick is not that good right now, and I think Olaf is stronger as a jungler.
Don't forget GP also has a global ult which seems to do quite a bit of damage. It's not as good as Shen ult, but it IS a global ult so he can make an impact instantly regardless of whether or not he has TP.
On July 21 2015 09:35 VayneAuthority wrote: i mean i dont know how fed he was but just the last clip shows promise. One barrel basically destroyed their team i think?
It does the same damage as Parrley, with some kind of bonus armour pen.
Including whether or not the attack crits. Which can be a lot of damage. I wonder if it includes sheen damage too.
The answer is very yes. Basically, whatever physical damage your attack does, the barrels explode for that damage + the 60% armor ignore + the barrel extra damage vs champions. As a result Triforce is easily the best first item for damage that you can get. Your EV for barrel damage is a little higher than IE while being far more consistent and you get all of TF's other benefits which feel really good on GP. I find that after sheen/triforce farming becomes really easy and you make tons of bank. TF's insane clearing power does falls off later if you build tank but if you do go at least one more big AD item your clear is never too bad. Hydra lets you save barrels for fights tho.
On July 21 2015 06:22 Sufficiency wrote: Unless his numbers are absolutely terrible (which I don't think they will be), I think the new GP will be played in competitive as a splitpusher.
So... Not played unless his numbers are OP?
Currently, there aren't a lot of good splitpushing top laners (and Shen is pretty slow). I think GP will be a nice addition.
Furthermore, his laning phase is probably excellent for competitive since he can farm using Q and his Q gives him extra gold.
I think when compared to Jax/Irelia and other splitpushing tops, you are describing an OP champion executing a Riot-disfavored strategy (splitpushing).
Irelia and Jax can split, sure, but they also struggle with laneswaps.
GP has a ranged Q that allows him to handle laneswaps better.
Exactly...you are describing an OP champion (for competitive). There are no tops that handle laneswaps and can splitpush. The closest would be Heacarim, whos splitpushing is really not that great, his laneswap resistance is from good jungling, and he is susceptible to both ganks and lane bullies.
yorick and olaf come to mind immediately and used to be picked for that exact reason
On July 21 2015 09:35 VayneAuthority wrote: i mean i dont know how fed he was but just the last clip shows promise. One barrel basically destroyed their team i think?
It does the same damage as Parrley, with some kind of bonus armour pen.
Parley damage, plus 200 base and penetrates 60% armor. Includes crits and Tforce, possibly Hydra damage?
His lategame teamfight presence will be insane. Seems his only weakness will be an early reliance on getting farm for ult upgrades.
On July 21 2015 06:22 Sufficiency wrote: Unless his numbers are absolutely terrible (which I don't think they will be), I think the new GP will be played in competitive as a splitpusher.
So... Not played unless his numbers are OP?
Currently, there aren't a lot of good splitpushing top laners (and Shen is pretty slow). I think GP will be a nice addition.
Furthermore, his laning phase is probably excellent for competitive since he can farm using Q and his Q gives him extra gold.
I think when compared to Jax/Irelia and other splitpushing tops, you are describing an OP champion executing a Riot-disfavored strategy (splitpushing).
Irelia and Jax can split, sure, but they also struggle with laneswaps.
GP has a ranged Q that allows him to handle laneswaps better.
Exactly...you are describing an OP champion (for competitive). There are no tops that handle laneswaps and can splitpush. The closest would be Heacarim, whos splitpushing is really not that great, his laneswap resistance is from good jungling, and he is susceptible to both ganks and lane bullies.
I honestly do not know where you are getting at but stop analyzing my posts with a microscope.
It's operating under the presumption that Riot wants splitpushing to be countered early by lane swaps, and that a champion avoiding that is somehow instantly OP by design, for some nonsensical and very broad reason.
Riot just changes everything. They don't have some crusade against splitpushing they just want things to be different at different points in time. They buffed the hell out of Teleport which is the splitpushing summoner and the last two things that happened to Jax were buffs. They also nerfed laneswaps (supposedly the counter to splitpushing) by making turrets more resilient to early pushes and at various times have nerfed everything in the game from poke to wombo to sieging to ADC damage to sustain. There's no overarching conspiracy against any one type of play, only change.
On July 21 2015 14:37 Nos- wrote: tahm kench grey health is so frustrating
To play with or against
why would it be frustrating to play with you don't have to do anything? he literally just tanks up twice his hp and just pops it for a shield like what?
On July 21 2015 11:42 cLutZ wrote: Yup, I'm the insane one for noticing how they made T2 and T3 turrets nearly impossible to splitpush against an equal farm opponent.
They've actively made it 'easier' to splitpush in recent times though.
On July 21 2015 12:21 Amarok wrote: Riot just changes everything. They don't have some crusade against splitpushing they just want things to be different at different points in time. They buffed the hell out of Teleport which is the splitpushing summoner and the last two things that happened to Jax were buffs. They also nerfed laneswaps (supposedly the counter to splitpushing) by making turrets more resilient to early pushes and at various times have nerfed everything in the game from poke to wombo to sieging to ADC damage to sustain. There's no overarching conspiracy against any one type of play, only change.
Split-pushing has consistently been nerfed at the beginning of every season. It's not always direct, but it's always there. T2/3 turret changes, homeguard introduction, increased importance to baron/dragon, increased local/decreased global turret gold, decreased value of inhibitors, Righteous Glory, Homeguard + Teleport combination. I'd also argue that champion balance is largely in a direction that discourages split-pushing, but even without that, it's pretty clear Riot's been trying to stamp it out as a strategy until very recently.
And the buff to teleport is most definitely a nerf to split-pushing. Teleport is MUCH better for the defender than the attacker--the attacker is free to leave whenever he wants. The defender can only leave when he gets the lane pushed out or he knows the attacker isn't going to be there (because he teleported to the teamfight).
Edit: The nerf to Lichbane was also pretty big, although that's one of the few that I think was incidental and not targeted.
In attempt to optimize my lane phase, I was doing some calculations on what is best on Rengar vs AP lane, flat health, flat Armor or flat MR seals (Glyphs are CDR, I don't compromise here). So even though MR seals are secondary, I wanted to check how it will work out. I used the formula: Effective Health = Health*(100+Resists [Armor or MR])/100, I also calculated for Doran Blade (+70 health) and Long Sword starts Unfortunately, I deleted the exact results, however, what I got showed that Flat Health Seals provide between 30 and 90 more effective health for the 1st few levels, both against AD or AP opponent. The formula will show similar results for other champs below 100 MR or Armor and because we only talk about optimization at lvls 1-6, it means that everyone who aims for flat seals, should go for health seals, including junglers and adcs. Perhaps some junglers that plan to build tanky will benefit more from flat armor runes, since, the formula graph changes at 100 armor, but still either my calculations miss something important or people should just use flat health seals every time, when they go for flat runes and not scaling.
On July 21 2015 14:37 Nos- wrote: tahm kench grey health is so frustrating
Team: brb, we have to burn through this guy's 8k health.
Who needs a passive revive when you can't die amirite
In a way, I see Tahm's grey health like Nasus Q. It seems intimidating on paper, but without a reliable method of delivery (no gaoclosers, etc) you will just get kited and die.
Although I do admit Thornmail is kind of funny on him.
On July 21 2015 14:37 Nos- wrote: tahm kench grey health is so frustrating
Team: brb, we have to burn through this guy's 8k health.
Who needs a passive revive when you can't die amirite
In a way, I see Tahm's grey health like Nasus Q. It seems intimidating on paper, but without a reliable method of delivery (no gaoclosers, etc) you will just get kited and die.
Although I do admit Thornmail is kind of funny on him.
I see him as a nice tanky top for a poke type comp that just wants to disengage.
I really dislike his new passive though. new E basically gives no reason to ever go tanky gangplank again and pretty much the only viable build is damage. so why would they say hes hit and run then give him this passive that only works with melee AA...
sounds like he will dumpster low damage tanks top though. true damage...high armor pen...heal...even true damage on his ult if you want.
On July 21 2015 14:37 Nos- wrote: tahm kench grey health is so frustrating
Team: brb, we have to burn through this guy's 8k health.
Who needs a passive revive when you can't die amirite
In a way, I see Tahm's grey health like Nasus Q. It seems intimidating on paper, but without a reliable method of delivery (no gaoclosers, etc) you will just get kited and die.
Although I do admit Thornmail is kind of funny on him.
I see him as a nice tanky top for a poke type comp that just wants to disengage.
Except he does no damage as a top laner. Not to mention his awful laning phase...
On July 22 2015 00:38 VayneAuthority wrote: I really dislike his new passive though. new E basically gives no reason to ever go tanky gangplank again and pretty much the only viable build is damage. so why would they say hes hit and run then give him this passive that only works with melee AA...
sounds like he will dumpster low damage tanks top though. true damage...high armor pen...heal...even true damage on his ult if you want.
It doesn't matter. He will be a splitpusher. A small dash of survivability is good enough.
On July 21 2015 23:49 M2 wrote: In attempt to optimize my lane phase, I was doing some calculations on what is best on Rengar vs AP lane, flat health, flat Armor or flat MR seals (Glyphs are CDR, I don't compromise here). So even though MR seals are secondary, I wanted to check how it will work out. I used the formula: Effective Health = Health*(100+Resists [Armor or MR])/100, I also calculated for Doran Blade (+70 health) and Long Sword starts Unfortunately, I deleted the exact results, however, what I got showed that Flat Health Seals provide between 30 and 90 more effective health for the 1st few levels, both against AD or AP opponent. The formula will show similar results for other champs below 100 MR or Armor and because we only talk about optimization at lvls 1-6, it means that everyone who aims for flat seals, should go for health seals, including junglers and adcs. Perhaps some junglers that plan to build tanky will benefit more from flat armor runes, since, the formula graph changes at 100 armor, but still either my calculations miss something important or people should just use flat health seals every time, when they go for flat runes and not scaling.
If you're just looking at Health and Resists, then the numbers do seem to favor Flat Health. However, you need to factor in sustain, regen, and potions into the mix as well.
This is especially the case for junglers who, in addition to natural regen and potions, get 7-10 health per second in combat, up to 30 health from finishing off a big creep, and additional health from Red buff (both the buff itself and smiting the camp).
On July 22 2015 00:38 VayneAuthority wrote: I really dislike his new passive though. new E basically gives no reason to ever go tanky gangplank again and pretty much the only viable build is damage. so why would they say hes hit and run then give him this passive that only works with melee AA...
sounds like he will dumpster low damage tanks top though. true damage...high armor pen...heal...even true damage on his ult if you want.
It doesn't matter. He will be a splitpusher. A small dash of survivability is good enough.
yea its just funny how they could change his passive to that and define his bruiser role or change e and define his hit and run. instead they make it so he has zero identity again ^^
I think you're taking too narrow a view regarding his passive. Yeah it's not 100% perfect for hit and run, but it still adds a lot and solidifies his laning phase. The whole "identity" thing is a red herring.
im just talking from experience. I've played gangplank since before ranked even existed. after laning (and only vs a melee character at that) there is like a 2% chance I will ever use this passive. you parley/barrel and run and thats the end of that. if you go into melee range vs anything worth harassing chances are they will just kill you unless way ahead.
How the fuck does E mean you should never go tanky?
On July 22 2015 01:26 VayneAuthority wrote: im just talking from experience. I've played gangplank since before ranked even existed. after laning (and only vs a melee character at that) there is like a 2% chance I will ever use this passive. you parley/barrel and run and thats the end of that. if you go into melee range vs anything worth harassing chances are they will just kill you unless way ahead.
Again, how in the fuck?
Let's see. E is an 40-80% slow, penetrates more than half of armor. Passive is 30-200 true damage, that you can use at least twice in a trade. W is a heal as big as it ever was in low-health situations. And is a free cleanse.
How in the fuck is someone going to kill you unless you've fucked up every trade or got poked down by playing a ranged matchup poorly?
On July 22 2015 01:26 VayneAuthority wrote: im just talking from experience. I've played gangplank since before ranked even existed. after laning (and only vs a melee character at that) there is like a 2% chance I will ever use this passive. you parley/barrel and run and thats the end of that. if you go into melee range vs anything worth harassing chances are they will just kill you unless way ahead.
Again, how in the fuck?
Let's see. E is an 80% slow, penetrates more than half of armor. Passive is 20-200 true damage, that you can use at least twice in a trade. W is a heal as big as it ever was.
How in the fuck is someone going to kill you unless you've fucked up every trade or got poked down by some ranged bullshit?
On July 22 2015 01:26 VayneAuthority wrote: im just talking from experience. I've played gangplank since before ranked even existed. after laning (and only vs a melee character at that) there is like a 2% chance I will ever use this passive. you parley/barrel and run and thats the end of that. if you go into melee range vs anything worth harassing chances are they will just kill you unless way ahead.
Again, how in the fuck?
Let's see. E is an 40-80% slow, penetrates more than half of armor. Passive is 30-200 true damage, that you can use at least twice in a trade. W is a heal as big as it ever was in low-health situations. And is a free cleanse.
How in the fuck is someone going to kill you unless you've fucked up every trade or got poked down by playing a ranged matchup poorly?
because you arent putting it into relative terms and getting upset over nothing. teamwide AD buff > damaging ability for incentive to go tank, I don't see how thats a difficult concept
On July 22 2015 01:26 VayneAuthority wrote: im just talking from experience. I've played gangplank since before ranked even existed. after laning (and only vs a melee character at that) there is like a 2% chance I will ever use this passive. you parley/barrel and run and thats the end of that. if you go into melee range vs anything worth harassing chances are they will just kill you unless way ahead.
Sure, you won't get to apply the new passive at range, but you're trading a 7% slow and 63 magic damage DoT at level 18 for a 30% speed boost. For the purposes of hit and run, and most everything else, the latter is far more useful than the former.
On July 22 2015 01:29 Caiada wrote: How the fuck does E mean you should never go tanky?
On July 22 2015 01:26 VayneAuthority wrote: im just talking from experience. I've played gangplank since before ranked even existed. after laning (and only vs a melee character at that) there is like a 2% chance I will ever use this passive. you parley/barrel and run and thats the end of that. if you go into melee range vs anything worth harassing chances are they will just kill you unless way ahead.
Again, how in the fuck?
Let's see. E is an 40-80% slow, penetrates more than half of armor. Passive is 30-200 true damage, that you can use at least twice in a trade. W is a heal as big as it ever was in low-health situations. And is a free cleanse.
How in the fuck is someone going to kill you unless you've fucked up every trade or got poked down by playing a ranged matchup poorly?
because you arent putting it into relative terms and getting upset over nothing. teamwide AD buff > damaging ability for incentive to go tank, I don't see how thats a difficult concept
Zone control > Teamwide AD Buff.
You get more than just damage from barrels, an 80% slow is a big deal. We're talking Teemo Shroom levels of disruption and control.
new gp has potential but I really do wish they would have changed his passive completely if this is the final result. not being able to proc it with Parrlay really tilts me.
On July 22 2015 01:26 VayneAuthority wrote: im just talking from experience. I've played gangplank since before ranked even existed. after laning (and only vs a melee character at that) there is like a 2% chance I will ever use this passive. you parley/barrel and run and thats the end of that. if you go into melee range vs anything worth harassing chances are they will just kill you unless way ahead.
Sure, you won't get to apply the new passive at range, but you're trading a 7% slow and 63 magic damage DoT at level 18 for a 30% speed boost. For the purposes of hit and run, and most everything else, the latter is far more useful than the former.
On July 22 2015 01:29 Caiada wrote: How the fuck does E mean you should never go tanky?
On July 22 2015 01:26 VayneAuthority wrote: im just talking from experience. I've played gangplank since before ranked even existed. after laning (and only vs a melee character at that) there is like a 2% chance I will ever use this passive. you parley/barrel and run and thats the end of that. if you go into melee range vs anything worth harassing chances are they will just kill you unless way ahead.
Again, how in the fuck?
Let's see. E is an 40-80% slow, penetrates more than half of armor. Passive is 30-200 true damage, that you can use at least twice in a trade. W is a heal as big as it ever was in low-health situations. And is a free cleanse.
How in the fuck is someone going to kill you unless you've fucked up every trade or got poked down by playing a ranged matchup poorly?
because you arent putting it into relative terms and getting upset over nothing. teamwide AD buff > damaging ability for incentive to go tank, I don't see how thats a difficult concept
Zone control > Teamwide AD Buff.
You get more than just damage from barrels, an 80% slow is a big deal. We're talking Teemo Shroom levels of disruption and control.
lol im not arguing about which E is better. you make infinite better use of your E by going damage over tank. I'm talking about the incentive to build tank. there never is if your trying to optomize your character here.
On July 22 2015 02:32 Seuss wrote: 200 + 120% Bonus AD True Damage wouldn't be balanced if it could proc off Parrrley. It might not even be balanced as is.
not about balance I'm tilted because my cheese is moved.
I wonder what the final version of the new warrior looks like, I'm tempted to try it on Riven seeing as she's on of the few melee who can go full ad items and not struggle to land damage, stacking it with GP passive also sounds hilarious, but it might be harder to realize the damage.
On July 22 2015 01:26 VayneAuthority wrote: im just talking from experience. I've played gangplank since before ranked even existed. after laning (and only vs a melee character at that) there is like a 2% chance I will ever use this passive. you parley/barrel and run and thats the end of that. if you go into melee range vs anything worth harassing chances are they will just kill you unless way ahead.
Sure, you won't get to apply the new passive at range, but you're trading a 7% slow and 63 magic damage DoT at level 18 for a 30% speed boost. For the purposes of hit and run, and most everything else, the latter is far more useful than the former.
On July 22 2015 01:47 VayneAuthority wrote:
On July 22 2015 01:29 Caiada wrote: How the fuck does E mean you should never go tanky?
On July 22 2015 01:26 VayneAuthority wrote: im just talking from experience. I've played gangplank since before ranked even existed. after laning (and only vs a melee character at that) there is like a 2% chance I will ever use this passive. you parley/barrel and run and thats the end of that. if you go into melee range vs anything worth harassing chances are they will just kill you unless way ahead.
Again, how in the fuck?
Let's see. E is an 40-80% slow, penetrates more than half of armor. Passive is 30-200 true damage, that you can use at least twice in a trade. W is a heal as big as it ever was in low-health situations. And is a free cleanse.
How in the fuck is someone going to kill you unless you've fucked up every trade or got poked down by playing a ranged matchup poorly?
because you arent putting it into relative terms and getting upset over nothing. teamwide AD buff > damaging ability for incentive to go tank, I don't see how thats a difficult concept
Zone control > Teamwide AD Buff.
You get more than just damage from barrels, an 80% slow is a big deal. We're talking Teemo Shroom levels of disruption and control.
lol im not arguing about which E is better. you make infinite better use of your E by going damage over tank. I'm talking about the incentive to build tank. there never is if your trying to optomize your character here.
I'm not arguing over which E is better either. I'm pointing out that an 80% AoE slow that refreshes a 200+ damage true damage passive is something that strongly supports building tank, moreso than the teamwide AD buff you brought up as Gangplank's previous incentive to build tank. New Gangplank's barrels, plus his passive, let him go either way.
% armour penetration, a flat amount of aditional damage, and heavy cc are all reasons meaning he can function as a tank.
The ArPen means that LW doesn't give him as much damage as it could, for one, which is one less "required" item to go tank. It also means he can duke it out with both tanks and squishies. The added damage makes his base extremely good, and again reduces the impact of your itemisation (less so with crit since it's a multiplier of the base attack, but 200 means the AD ratio doesn't weight all that much in the end, especially if you only take into account the additional AD he'd get from items).
I could see the reasoning for "full tank" vs "damage", but since he'd build at least one damage item, and probably Triforce over Hydra since E now provides the splash, the fact that Spellblade uses base AD again diminishes the importance of itemisation-based AD compared to his base stats and stuff such as crit and the spell's/attack's base damage.
These are also numbers that can be tuned, obviously. Without the additional damage to champions, "damage" GP suddenly becomes more interesting.
Wtf is that Fiora passive (that's rhetorical, I understood it, but still). Also they don't show if it's directional based on the map (eg. she came from the left) or the champion (the weak spot was in front of Lux). The video for Lunge doesn't make it clear whether she moves to attack the target after her dash, or whether the area is simply her aa range from her "landing" point. W looks good, but the design on E "can't crit, then will crit" is... urgh, why? It feels pointless and inelegant.
Her whole kit just makes no sense. It's like someone came up with that "weak spots" thing then they decided to base her whole champ on this minigame thing. That isn't Fiora and that isn't how you do good design riot :<. Gar I know it's early and she could be really strong but I just feel they completely fucked it up.
From one of the most boring assassin kits in the game to near-Vayne levels of silly duelist potential. This actually makes me kind of want to play Fiora.
Q/W/E at least are all infinitely cooler. Only thing I'm iffy on is the strange heal on her ult. Why a heal?
Why the fuck is there that heal on her ult? I get the whole "you can be useful even if you fight the enemy frontline/help peeling" and "non-damage contribution", but where does a goddamn heal fit thematically? ._.
I'm guessing they just realized how absolutely horrible she would be in teamfights as trying to randomly hit people in a certain direction is hardly easy in a chaotic teamfight so they threw in some random "aoe" on it but realized a stun or slow may be too powerful.
Well lunge may make it reasonably easy to hit weak spots even in teamfights.
Although tbh while I think the new q and w are nice, the e and ult seem like a stupid design. Why the duck does her ult heal...why can't it give increased aspd or expose all weak spots on enemies in the aoe or something. The heal seems dumb.
That's because you're beating your overkilled horse here rather than on reddit.
The thing with the whole ability is that:
%maxHP true damage destroys tanks, so she's not just an assassin for squishies, and can help her allies kill a frontline/diver super fast.
%maxHP true damage is also "target agnostic" as Riot pointed out already, so even when she's behind her ult is "guaranteed" damage is she can hit it (and even if she uses what little farm she got on survivability to hit all 4 points she's going to deal at least moderate damage), while also reducing her very high snowball potential (as I don't think they'd put a decent ratio on it). She's less binary and it opens up her itemisation.
The healing being a ground-targeted zone means that allies (especially ranged, the guys who tend to get dived) can stand in it. If an enemy dives and gets hit, it's harder for him to kill his targets as they'll get healed. It also makes chasing harder depending on numbers, because even if the rest of the enemy team catches up, they won't want to fight in a non-interruptible Janna ult.
When she dives, she doesn't have to "kill the damage threat then clean up or die" after her ults wears off like before. If she gets the heal, she lives longer, and the zone helps even if she has to chase a bit (or walks back toward her team). Again, if she's behind but plays it correctly, she can survive going in. Of course W helps that too.
From a design stand-point, it's coherent, although I'm not a fan of it. But thematically speaking, what does that have to do with Fiora?
One thing that hasn't been brought up is now much RNG the weak spot mechanic is subject to. If it appears at a random angle, the actual effectiveness/practicality of a weak spot can be heavily dependent on where it appears.
This is doubly so given the near-instantaneous turning speed of champions in LoL, which means there's much higher dependence on where the weak spot appeared and where the enemy chooses to face than on your own character's actual movement. For example, if the weak spot appears at the front of the enemy's model, they cannot fight you without letting you hit the weak spot; if it appears at their back, you basically have to run straight through them and ignore them to actually ever hit it.
The crit "mechanic" on it is stupid as hell and I don't see what purpose it serves. 'cept maybe to let her do stuff even when underfarmed.
On July 22 2015 03:58 TheYango wrote: One thing that hasn't been brought up is now much RNG the weak spot mechanic is subject to. If it appears at a random angle, the actual effectiveness/practicality of a weak spot can be heavily dependent on where it appears.
This is doubly so given the near-instantaneous turning speed of champions in LoL, which means there's much higher dependence on where the weak spot appeared and where the enemy chooses to face than on your own character's actual movement. For example, if the weak spot appears at the front of the enemy's model, they cannot fight you without letting you hit the weak spot; if it appears at their back, you basically have to run straight through them and ignore them to actually ever hit it.
The videos are really bad about this (Riot pls), but the ult's seems to suggest that the weal spots are fixed on the "ground" rather than on your character's direction. So it's more a "you're boned if you're red-side and your weak spot appears on your left" top lane.
On July 22 2015 03:58 TheYango wrote: One thing that hasn't been brought up is now much RNG the weak spot mechanic is subject to. If it appears at a random angle, the actual effectiveness/practicality of a weak spot can be heavily dependent on where it appears.
This is doubly so given the near-instantaneous turning speed of champions in LoL, which means there's much higher dependence on where the weak spot appeared and where the enemy chooses to face than on your own character's actual movement. For example, if the weak spot appears at the front of the enemy's model, they cannot fight you without letting you hit the weak spot; if it appears at their back, you basically have to run straight through them and ignore them to actually ever hit it.
I'm working under the assumption that week spots do not turn with the champion, they're just random cardinal directions.
It's arguable that her E also has counter-synergy with her passive and R because the weak spot mechanic encourages movement between attacks and attacking after movement, rather than attacking the same place twice in short succession. It's not a huge deal, but it seems like strange design to have a passive and ult that emphasize a move->attack->move->attack pattern, and an E that sets you up to attack twice in succession (and which essentially wastes the attack speed if you move to hit a different weak spot before the 2nd attack).
I think new Fiora looks bad. Not being able to get all 4 sides of an opponent in a realistic scenario is going to be frustrating.
And while thematically weak spots might make sense as a fencer, how does she see a weak spot behind her target?
The heal on the ult is weak thematically.
There's a lot of RNG added to her passive.
And while she may seem like a low skill champion according to champion.gg's chart of winrates by number of games played, you don't need to add a skill shot to her lunge. That ability wrecks me whenever I play Jayce or Kayle top and I'm hiding behind creeps. The current Fiora scares me and has a role in league as she's a high dps, high burst, melee, with a decent early game, that has a lot more ease sticking to champions due to the double lunge. The only other champs that scare me like that are Riven, Irelia, and Renekton due to their similar high damage and double dashes.
I don't think this Fiora will do the same due to lunge becoming a skillshot. There are other ways to increase her skill cap, removing her current ult isn't one of them.
On July 22 2015 04:03 Alaric wrote: The crit "mechanic" on it is stupid as hell and I don't see what purpose it serves. 'cept maybe to let her do stuff even when underfarmed.
On July 22 2015 03:58 TheYango wrote: One thing that hasn't been brought up is now much RNG the weak spot mechanic is subject to. If it appears at a random angle, the actual effectiveness/practicality of a weak spot can be heavily dependent on where it appears.
This is doubly so given the near-instantaneous turning speed of champions in LoL, which means there's much higher dependence on where the weak spot appeared and where the enemy chooses to face than on your own character's actual movement. For example, if the weak spot appears at the front of the enemy's model, they cannot fight you without letting you hit the weak spot; if it appears at their back, you basically have to run straight through them and ignore them to actually ever hit it.
The videos are really bad about this (Riot pls), but the ult's seems to suggest that the weal spots are fixed on the "ground" rather than on your character's direction. So it's more a "you're boned if you're red-side and your weak spot appears on your left" top lane.
Reward for hitting the second attack. I assume they wanted to give her a free critical attack along with the aspd, but just saying 'your next hit autocrits' is boring and would interact weirdly with Lunge burst. Instead, one weak attack with a slow, one free burst attack. Also prevents giving too much IE incentive.
There's a lot of subtle shit to the weak spot thing as well. Lunge through a target, E the weak spot for a slow, autocrit the next weak spot.
On July 22 2015 04:03 Seuss wrote: I'm working under the assumption that week spots do not turn with the champion, they're just random cardinal directions.
The point about RNG still stands (outcome of a trade is hugely different if you get 3 weak spots that appear facing toward you vs. having them on the opposite side). And that just means the text about "defending weak spots" counterplay is just bullshit because the only way to "defend" a weak spots if it doesn't turn with your champion is to run away, lol.
On July 22 2015 04:03 Alaric wrote: The crit "mechanic" on it is stupid as hell and I don't see what purpose it serves. 'cept maybe to let her do stuff even when underfarmed.
On July 22 2015 03:58 TheYango wrote: One thing that hasn't been brought up is now much RNG the weak spot mechanic is subject to. If it appears at a random angle, the actual effectiveness/practicality of a weak spot can be heavily dependent on where it appears.
This is doubly so given the near-instantaneous turning speed of champions in LoL, which means there's much higher dependence on where the weak spot appeared and where the enemy chooses to face than on your own character's actual movement. For example, if the weak spot appears at the front of the enemy's model, they cannot fight you without letting you hit the weak spot; if it appears at their back, you basically have to run straight through them and ignore them to actually ever hit it.
The videos are really bad about this (Riot pls), but the ult's seems to suggest that the weal spots are fixed on the "ground" rather than on your character's direction. So it's more a "you're boned if you're red-side and your weak spot appears on your left" top lane.
Reward for hitting the second attack. I assume they wanted to give her a free critical attack along with the aspd, but just saying 'your next hit autocrits' is boring and would interact weirdly with Lunge burst. Instead, one weak attack with a slow, one free burst attack. Also prevents giving too much IE incentive.
There's a lot of subtle shit to the weak spot thing as well. Lunge through a target, E the weak spot for a slow, autocrit the next weak spot.
Oh, you can lunge through targets? That's different then.
I kind of liked the bonus AD on her W, while it was an invisible stat, it encourages her towards crit builds rather than on-hit builds. I'm not sure her current kit does the same. On her E one attack can't crit. The next one has to crit. So if you have a 20% crit, the first attack loses a 20% crit chance, the second one hits for 80% bonus crit chance.
But if you get to a late game crit build, where you have 75% crit chance, your first attack will lose a 25% crit chance and your second will gain a 25% crit chance. No increase in expected dps.
On July 22 2015 04:11 Caiada wrote: E the weak spot for a slow, autocrit the next weak spot.
There's not any indication that critting on a weak spot hit affects the bonus damage. Most likely it's just a fixed damage proc that scales with your level or your AD.
That's why I said they don't synergize well. Her E wants her to just stand and attack twice in quick succession, while her passive and ult want her to move between every attack, meaning attack speed past a certain point becomes less useful since she'll spend her attack cooldown moving anyway.
On July 22 2015 04:03 Alaric wrote: The crit "mechanic" on it is stupid as hell and I don't see what purpose it serves. 'cept maybe to let her do stuff even when underfarmed.
On July 22 2015 03:58 TheYango wrote: One thing that hasn't been brought up is now much RNG the weak spot mechanic is subject to. If it appears at a random angle, the actual effectiveness/practicality of a weak spot can be heavily dependent on where it appears.
This is doubly so given the near-instantaneous turning speed of champions in LoL, which means there's much higher dependence on where the weak spot appeared and where the enemy chooses to face than on your own character's actual movement. For example, if the weak spot appears at the front of the enemy's model, they cannot fight you without letting you hit the weak spot; if it appears at their back, you basically have to run straight through them and ignore them to actually ever hit it.
The videos are really bad about this (Riot pls), but the ult's seems to suggest that the weal spots are fixed on the "ground" rather than on your character's direction. So it's more a "you're boned if you're red-side and your weak spot appears on your left" top lane.
Reward for hitting the second attack. I assume they wanted to give her a free critical attack along with the aspd, but just saying 'your next hit autocrits' is boring and would interact weirdly with Lunge burst. Instead, one weak attack with a slow, one free burst attack. Also prevents giving too much IE incentive.
There's a lot of subtle shit to the weak spot thing as well. Lunge through a target, E the weak spot for a slow, autocrit the next weak spot.
Oh, you can lunge through targets? That's different then.
I kind of liked the bonus AD on her W, while it was an invisible stat, it encourages her towards crit builds rather than on-hit builds. I'm not sure her current kit does the same. On her E one attack can't crit. The next one has to crit. So if you have a 20% crit, the first attack loses a 20% crit chance, the second one hits for 80% bonus crit chance.
But if you get to a late game crit build, where you have 75% crit chance, your first attack will lose a 25% crit chance and your second will gain a 25% crit chance. No increase in expected dps.
It's to disincentivize crit past a certain point, logistically, I'm sure. It basically averages her crit out to 50% whenever you use E, and you want to use E for the slow. If I had to guess, it'll steer the ideal build to Tforce->Ghostblade->one of Hydra/IE.
On July 22 2015 04:11 Caiada wrote: E the weak spot for a slow, autocrit the next weak spot.
There's not any indication that critting on a weak spot hit affects the bonus damage. Most likely it's just a fixed damage proc that scales with your level or your AD.
That's why I said they don't synergize well. Her E wants her to just stand and attack twice in quick succession, while her passive and ult want her to move between every attack, meaning attack speed past a certain point becomes less useful since she'll spend her attack cooldown moving anyway.
The attack speed is weird, yeah. Though in straight duels with an opponent you're already in range of, you could do E->AA/Q to next point/AA.
While the complaints about how Weak Spots feel/function are valid, can we please assume that Riot has at least done some playtesting? I mean we're talking about basic flaws that would be revealed after 1-2 games. We can at least give Riot more credit that that >.>
On July 22 2015 04:33 GhandiEAGLE wrote: While the complaints about how Weak Spots feel/function are valid, can we please assume that Riot has at least done some playtesting? I mean we're talking about basic flaws that would be revealed after 1-2 games. We can at least give Riot more credit that that >.>
lol.How about that time ryze reached live and he could perma root people and you could find out after 1 game of testing?
On July 22 2015 05:22 GolemMadness wrote: Q - Hate Spike DAMAGE 40/55/70/85/100 ⇒ 40/50/60/70/80
Nerf Eve's main damage ability by 20% at max rank, but don't touch Rek'sai, Gragas or Nidalee. Makes sense.
Well dunno from what I have seen this patch those 3 champs aren't too much of an issue compared to some others like azir/rengar/ezreal/ryze/vlad/kayle.I actually ban eve cuz she can be a bitch to handle unlike the other 3.Only reksai is a bitch of them imo and only if someone good is playing her.
The MF changes are so mehhhhhh. Elise and Runeglaive stuff is nice though. After so much Rek/Gragas/Eve, I'd be perfectly content seeing her much more.
I'd be really impressed if Tahm's winrate was still low after the Ult changes. Maybe not though, if people keep buying RoA...
Rift Scuttler is a girl. Important info.
REVIVE STILL DOESN'T DEAL 12 DAMAGE Fixed a bug where Death Recap was showing the lowest three sources of damage, rather than the highest
I'm not sure if I actually stopped enjoying this game because of recent changes or is it just a burnout, but every time I read about new changes I wish Overwatch was out already.
EPT
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