Welcome to the Patch General Discussion thread for the League of Legends subforum. This thread is for discussion around League of Legends and the most recent patch. Free feel to talk about anything LoL related here that does not already have its own thread. While posting standards tend to be rather lax in this thread, pointless spam will not be tolerated.
On April 29 2015 05:35 krndandaman wrote: yea new botrk isnt only stronger because of the buff in stats but buildpath.
2 daggers in buildpath was so horrible for slot efficiency.
also not related to patch: does anyone know if your mmr goes down if you don't play placements and let your account sit? my smurf was d5 last season but I haven't touched the account since.
I'm actually most excited about these ARAM changes
But yeah like I was saying, Ashe -> JuggerAshe, but if she does significantly less DEEPS than Kog'maw then she'll still be a crappy pick
Also, err... how does Ryze do damage precisely? His Q is poke, but doesn't seem like he has much damage in his kit, more AP than mana ratios now so he seems awkwardly squishy and with no damage.
I made a site thingy for urf's api challenge with a friend. I submitted late so it won't go in the showcase but anyone can take a look. It shows winrate for a champion by number of times that champ was played by a summoner in the 100k games collected. Hoping to plot it, make data extraction automated, and expand to summoners rift but for now it's what we got. ^_^
I made a site thingy for urf's api challenge with a friend. I submitted late so it won't go in the showcase but anyone can take a look. It shows winrate for a champion by number of times that champ was played by a summoner in the 100k games collected. Hoping to plot it, make data extraction automated, and expand to summoners rift but for now it's what we got. ^_^
Also, err... how does Ryze do damage precisely? His Q is poke, but doesn't seem like he has much damage in his kit, more AP than mana ratios now so he seems awkwardly squishy and with no damage.
Yeah I have to agree with that, reading the patch notes Ryze seems to be going in a weird direction. Looks like his E is taking over the damage. I'm too tired now, but someone should look into damage changes when buying RoA before patch and after.
And I'm going to pay attention to those BC changes.
Don't like Recurve change, Kalista already strong enough as she is in the right hands.
being permabanned in korea apparently isn't enough, kalista needed buffs of course. this already looks like a patch im going to avoid, RIP 5.7, a pretty decent patch tbh
Anyway crying about Ryze having one skillshot is a big overreaction (assuming that any of it is serious), maybe he will be possible to balance now. Also skillshots are fun, if I wanted point&click I'd play dota.
On April 29 2015 06:34 JimmiC wrote: garen buff! go black cleaver.
How good is it really on Garen? I can see it as a replacement for Hexdrinker in some cases, but other then that I'm not sure. You don't want more than 2 damage items and usually that's Hexdrinker and Last Whisper for me.
On April 29 2015 06:34 JimmiC wrote: garen buff! go black cleaver.
How good is it really on Garen? I can see it as a replacement for Hexdrinker in some cases, but other then that I'm not sure. You don't want more than 2 damage items and usually that's Hexdrinker and Last Whisper for me.
I guess I could see it as a replacement for LW, but I kinda always want Hexdrinker. Other than that, what is it really gonna replace? Randuins? Sunfire? Thornmail? I think you want all of those three basically every game where there isn't triple AP, and in those cases you'd rather want more MR.
On April 29 2015 06:30 VayneAuthority wrote: being permabanned in korea apparently isn't enough, kalista needed buffs of course. this already looks like a patch im going to avoid, RIP 5.7, a pretty decent patch tbh
On April 29 2015 06:30 VayneAuthority wrote: being permabanned in korea apparently isn't enough, kalista needed buffs of course. this already looks like a patch im going to avoid, RIP 5.7, a pretty decent patch tbh
??? The blade change?
Probably the 10 bonus damage on Runaans as well as the botrk changes.
Glad they're finally fixing snap trap visibility, those things have been nearly invisible in bushes for me since they switched to the "new" SR.
Also glad they're readding Bloodthirster and Warmogs to ARAM. Should help with how obnoxious Luden's has made poke comps. But frankly I'd rather they just straight up remove Luden's in this mode.
On April 29 2015 06:30 VayneAuthority wrote: being permabanned in korea apparently isn't enough, kalista needed buffs of course. this already looks like a patch im going to avoid, RIP 5.7, a pretty decent patch tbh
It's like Kalista in LCK and Kalista in Western soloqueue is same, lmao. I'm yet to see at least 5 decent ones yet and it's almost half a year since release.
On April 29 2015 06:40 AlterKot wrote: Anyway crying about Ryze having one skillshot is a big overreaction (assuming that any of it is serious), maybe he will be possible to balance now. Also skillshots are fun, if I wanted point&click I'd play dota.
It's not about "hurr durr skillshot too hard to hit", but about the design paradigm. With this, Riot clearly tell us they dislike point'n'click and don't want a kit with only that existing, which closes up a bunch of design avenues for the sake of their buzzwords and flashiness.
The reason why Kalista is permabanned in Korea is because it's a mechanically hard champion that if they get a couple kills early on in lane phase the game's basically over, and there's a fair number of mechanical gods in Korea atm that can get those hypey, LCS big plays style kills.
I don't watch China at all so I can't say how the Korean imports in China have handled Kalista.
On April 29 2015 06:19 GrandInquisitor wrote: OMG that Shen ult change. It's so small but it's going to be so awesome.
Yeah man, it's really the buff he needs. Whenever I've played Shen I always ult in and I'm like 5-10 units short from landing my taunt because of when he spawns in from.
Is Ryze still basically unstoppable lategame? Because, if not, who wants a mage with crappy waveclear and no mobility that doesn't turn into an unkillable lategame monster?
Massive Vayne buff in the botrk changes makes me particularly happy. Sure its a buff to all adcs, Yasuo and anyone else who uses it but Im particularly happy having her be a bit more viable. :D
As to the Ryze changes Im pretty sure that its going to come down to implementation of his passive (% uptime and whatnot) and his Q particle speed. I dont understand where the skillshot drama is coming from - godforbid Ryze isnt a ranged, tanky hypercarry with the inability to miss anything at all. At least now he has some risk and calculation required outside of just sitting back to scale. I also love the Magic Shred E - could be core in some double AP strats to open up some composition diversity in this meta.
On April 29 2015 09:33 cLutZ wrote: Is Ryze still basically unstoppable lategame? Because, if not, who wants a mage with crappy waveclear and no mobility that doesn't turn into an unkillable lategame monster?
I think the uptime on his passive (which is supposed to be his godmode steroid) Naturally increases with his ult ranks because of the free cdr and constant redux in cd on Q per level. And honestly when they tune that shit right hes going to be even stronger than old ryze when hes dropping his load.
On April 29 2015 09:46 Purge wrote: Massive Vayne buff in the botrk changes makes me particularly happy. Sure its a buff to all adcs, Yasuo and anyone else who uses it but Im particularly happy having her be a bit more viable. :D
As to the Ryze changes Im pretty sure that its going to come down to implementation of his passive (% uptime and whatnot) and his Q particle speed. I dont understand where the skillshot drama is coming from - godforbid Ryze isnt a ranged, tanky hypercarry with the inability to miss anything at all. At least now he has some risk and calculation required outside of just sitting back to scale. I also love the Magic Shred E - could be core in some double AP strats to open up some composition diversity in this meta.
Also, BoRK + BT is gonig to give a goddamn huge shield. (to be fair, I don't know how viable that combo is, or when you'd pick up the items even)
These Ashe changes make me very sad. I've always felt she was one of the better champions in the game in terms of design. She's got a ton of legacy design features that are slowly being phased out of the game, so I supposed I shouldn't be too optimistic, particularly given Tristana just followed a pretty similar trajectory and wound up in a much less interesting place if not an outright worse one.
What's even more baffling to me is that she seems to be doing very well in terms of pick- and winrate at all levels below pro. And I can't imagine this update solves any of her problems on the pro scene, which as far as I can tell are primarily related to Crucible.
So, it looks like hurricaine will work with Ashe's focus from Q, real question now is does each salvo of rounds count as a singular target? Cuz thinking about running Essence Reaver + Hurricaine + Muramana on her, obviously numbers and shit will matter, but that would be pretty sick dps if each focus'd Q auto procs muramana multiple times.
On April 29 2015 09:46 Purge wrote: Massive Vayne buff in the botrk changes makes me particularly happy. Sure its a buff to all adcs, Yasuo and anyone else who uses it but Im particularly happy having her be a bit more viable. :D
As to the Ryze changes Im pretty sure that its going to come down to implementation of his passive (% uptime and whatnot) and his Q particle speed. I dont understand where the skillshot drama is coming from - godforbid Ryze isnt a ranged, tanky hypercarry with the inability to miss anything at all. At least now he has some risk and calculation required outside of just sitting back to scale. I also love the Magic Shred E - could be core in some double AP strats to open up some composition diversity in this meta.
Also, BoRK + BT is gonig to give a goddamn huge shield. (to be fair, I don't know how viable that combo is, or when you'd pick up the items even)
Just don't pick bt after blade, holy moly. Don't be Yutapon and play game properly.
And botrk buff isn't really buff to all adcs either.
A target would need 150mr before a level 1 E would shred as much as it would prerework. While at level 5 E will need 200mr. So I guess it's a buff against extremely high MR enemies and a nerf to low MR enemies.
A target would need 150mr before a level 1 E would shred as much as it would prerework. While at level 5 E will need 200mr. So I guess it's a buff against extremely high MR enemies and a nerf to low MR enemies.
On April 29 2015 09:55 Slusher wrote: E magic shred isn't new
But it's better now.
seeing as void staff fits in his old build I would contend it's a nerf, also it's a nerf to his lane phase, which is already nerfed by the fact that Q is a skillshot.
On April 29 2015 09:55 Slusher wrote: E magic shred isn't new
But it's better now.
seeing as void staff fits in his old build I would contend it's a nerf, also it's a nerf to his lane phase, which is already nerfed by the fact that Q is a skillshot.
Except now you can farm in losing match ups instead of standing under the turret for 30 minutes waiting for your power spike to kick in. Also, you can charge tear without targets now, so that's a thing.
A target would need 150mr before a level 1 E would shred as much as it would prerework. While at level 5 E will need 200mr. So I guess it's a buff against extremely high MR enemies and a nerf to low MR enemies.
but
Unleashes an orb that deals damage and reduces the Magic Resist of targets hit by a percentage, stacking up to 3 times.
seems to imply that each returning bolt stacks more MR reduction? Which could be fairly sick.
A target would need 150mr before a level 1 E would shred as much as it would prerework. While at level 5 E will need 200mr. So I guess it's a buff against extremely high MR enemies and a nerf to low MR enemies.
On April 29 2015 09:58 OhTwoMise wrote: These Ashe changes make me very sad. I've always felt she was one of the better champions in the game in terms of design. She's got a ton of legacy design features that are slowly being phased out of the game, so I supposed I shouldn't be too optimistic, particularly given Tristana just followed a pretty similar trajectory and wound up in a much less interesting place if not an outright worse one.
What's even more baffling to me is that she seems to be doing very well in terms of pick- and winrate at all levels below pro. And I can't imagine this update solves any of her problems on the pro scene, which as far as I can tell are primarily related to Crucible.
But what aspects of her kit actually got removed?
Her old passive which was completely nonexistant past lvl 1 brush cheese.
She now has the slow permanently.
Volley is a bit different but has basically the same functionality.
E vision is still there.
R is identical.
So the only "legacy feature" that she lost was the gold generation....which was 600 gold at 200cs...basically a completely worthless noob trap.
On April 29 2015 09:55 Slusher wrote: E magic shred isn't new
But it's better now.
seeing as void staff fits in his old build I would contend it's a nerf, also it's a nerf to his lane phase, which is already nerfed by the fact that Q is a skillshot.
Except now you can farm in losing match ups instead of standing under the turret for 30 minutes waiting for your power spike to kick in. Also, you can charge tear without targets now, so that's a thing.
Losing matchups? Ryze was fairly lane dominant early because of Q and the safety of W. When not totally weak it is basically Irelia who could punish him, but only if she was a better player. I feel like this is part of the fundamental misunderstanding of the old Ryze. He was strong in lane, but bad waveclear, bad in laneswaps, and couldn't really teamfight for a long time. The Q change means he is now lane-weak, bad in laneswaps, with bad waveclear, and it doesn't really seem like his early teamfighting is stronger.
In other words, new Ryze has to be even more ridiculous than old Ryze lategame to be balanced.
A target would need 150mr before a level 1 E would shred as much as it would prerework. While at level 5 E will need 200mr. So I guess it's a buff against extremely high MR enemies and a nerf to low MR enemies.
A target would need 150mr before a level 1 E would shred as much as it would prerework. While at level 5 E will need 200mr. So I guess it's a buff against extremely high MR enemies and a nerf to low MR enemies.
but
Unleashes an orb that deals damage and reduces the Magic Resist of targets hit by a percentage, stacking up to 3 times.
seems to imply that each returning bolt stacks more MR reduction? Which could be fairly sick.
OH! That changes things a bit. So in a duel with no minions around he'll shred quite a bit more MR.
Thats not how it works, you want minions around. Watch the skill video. It starts at your target, splits out to secondaries, then each secondary returns to the original.
On April 29 2015 11:20 Slusher wrote: it did that before
yeah, this version will be way more reliable though. And better vs tanks. Plus has the potential to shred an entire team and 3 stack the primary target.
the ashe changes are suspect until the numbers are seen. getting rid of ashe's upfront guaranteed burst with shyv + passive + IE proc + arrow damage + volley damage and lowering the damage on volley as well....well the new passive better be damn good in terms of sustained damage. because as we all know burst > sustained so simply replacing it with the latter will inherently make her weaker. Imagine riot taking that into account?
Im mostly just worried about her laning. It seems they totally wrecked volly as a lane skill, and she got nothing else to really compensate. Her laning isn't spectacular now and is totally dependent on that skill, it won't matter how utility-riffic she is after the rework if she never makes it out of lane.
A target would need 150mr before a level 1 E would shred as much as it would prerework. While at level 5 E will need 200mr. So I guess it's a buff against extremely high MR enemies and a nerf to low MR enemies.
The new MR shred stacks up to 3 times, maxing out at 24/27/30/33/36%. That beats out the single stacking flat pen at 50/55.5/60/63.63/66.6MR.
From the description, it sounds like the main target gets 2 stacks from the initial cast. The cooldown is going down to 7 seconds. After an initial buy of 10% CDR and CDR form his ult, we're looking at a 4.2 second CD, not taking any effect from his passive into the equation.
New Ryze is going to punch holes through everything.
From surrender at 20 it seems the new passive is slightly better than having no crit at all, on average. It gives her a flat 10% total AD boost that stacks additively with the crit*crrt damage multiplier.
So on the topic of Ryze, I had a question. Particularly, how does one lane against him when playing a melee bruiser?
I was playing Darius against Ryze and I had a super rough time in lane. I think I gave him way too much respect early on in lane, but it felt like he did a TON of damage. Like he started mana crystal and some health potions and it really felt like he hit like a truck.
This might be a moot question given the Ryze rework is just around the corner (or already here) but I was wondering if you guys had some general tips.
On April 29 2015 13:03 Frudgey wrote: So on the topic of Ryze, I had a question. Particularly, how does one lane against him when playing a melee bruiser?
I was playing Darius against Ryze and I had a super rough time in lane. I think I gave him way too much respect early on in lane, but it felt like he did a TON of damage. Like he started mana crystal and some health potions and it really felt like he hit like a truck.
This might be a moot question given the Ryze rework is just around the corner (or already here) but I was wondering if you guys had some general tips.
Thanks in advance!
It takes a while for current Ryze to become a consistent damage threat. He's super weak 1-3 as long as you have some way to close a gap(which includes apprehend.) After asserting dominance early, he takes a really long time to become relevant.
On April 29 2015 13:03 Frudgey wrote: So on the topic of Ryze, I had a question. Particularly, how does one lane against him when playing a melee bruiser?
I was playing Darius against Ryze and I had a super rough time in lane. I think I gave him way too much respect early on in lane, but it felt like he did a TON of damage. Like he started mana crystal and some health potions and it really felt like he hit like a truck.
This might be a moot question given the Ryze rework is just around the corner (or already here) but I was wondering if you guys had some general tips.
Thanks in advance!
It takes a while for current Ryze to become a consistent damage threat. He's super weak 1-3 as long as you have some way to close a gap(which includes apprehend.) After asserting dominance early, he takes a really long time to become relevant.
I mean, this is true because Ryze is incredibly neutered at this point. But it wasn't when he was good.
Ashe looks like a huuge hypercarry though if she can get any support late game. Highest crit scaling in the game with passive,, 60% attack speed steroid + undetermined AD steroid on Q, perma slow with no mana requirements, as well as her arrow initiate.
Fuck juggermaw, give me a Juggerashe. Ashe with like Lulu/Ori+Morg will be a monster.
Her laning looks like trash though.
That being said, Flurry auto's with new BC and BtorK will smash face. I honestly would buy BC over LW on her. you're basically paying 700 gold for 400 HP and 20% cdr on Ashe cuz in any fight you'll have that flurry Q up all fight long, giving you an instant 6x stacks giving you maxed armor shreds.
Instead of oldschool IE->Shiv->LW, ashe probably gets pretty sick mileage out of BtorK->BC->IE. Maybe even picking up the Cloak before you finish BC; BtorK->Phage->Cloak->BC
All the passive on-hits from Flurry plus the onhit lifesteal... wow. Then you remember she has big jinx style movespeed bursts from the phage passive, huge range, and the 20 cdr on arrow with the perma slow... I think late game ashe might be the hardest carry in the game in this form.
Juggerashe will even have sick initiation.
EDIT: RiotRepertoir saying ashes Q has a total AD ratio of 1.35 in bonus damage. Wow. And they can crit. Every auto in a teamfight is 2.35 TADxCrit Modifier + 6xBtorK passive . That is actually huuuge. Lategame you are probably doing 1200-1500 per auto from 600 range depending on their MR and total HP... and you have arrow.
On April 29 2015 15:19 cLutZ wrote: I lke the idea of juggerashe. It seems plausible,
Yeah.
Just theorycrafting, but i think if you get the laneswap, and a decent amount of farm you probably just win the game. More flexible than juggermaw I think, you can actually start fights instead of having to play a poke comp until you get engaged upon.
Opens up room for more interesting mid picks, and I think gives you more room for error. Like Juggermaw you screw up your lulu / morg timings you just hard lose a fight, but with Ashe you can start a fight and potentially burst a kid before you need to worry about shields.
I think for example Juggerashe could run say Azir mid. Although, now that I think about it I think azir would be really sick in a Juggermaw comp too. Bad example. My point is though that you dont need a poke / disengage champion like Corki or Ahri. I'd feel comfortable with like Kassidin, Vladimir, Lissandra, even like an Urgot or Malzahar.
Wait, if I'm reading Ashe's PBE notes right now, she can no longer crit? Only does bonus damage? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm. interesting.
So based on the math there should be pretty high critchance+AD break point in which ashe finally does more DPS with her passive than she would if she just critted normally...
On April 29 2015 15:32 wei2coolman wrote: Wait, if I'm reading Ashe's PBE notes right now, she can no longer crit? Only does bonus damage? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm. interesting.
So based on the math there should be pretty high critchance+AD break point in which ashe finally does more DPS with her passive than she would if she just critted normally...
They're still coded as crits, so they still effect that one crit->AS mastery and presumably cause Shiv to crit 100% of the time.
Without crit damage modifiers, that breakeven point is 90%. With IE this breakeven point is 60%. IE and PD is 55%. So with an extra 5% from somewhere you're doing as much damage as old Ashe crits with every single auto.
And then Q active just adds an extra 1.35AD ratio to your autos on top of that (unless I'm reading it wrong and it's 1.35 total instead of 1+1.35 per auto).
Tough call. They really used words to suggest that they're promoting Ashe as a utility-carry, but then added way too much (imo) damage for this plan. If it works out, I could see them doing this to all crits and then just focusing on the utility aspects of Ashe. /conspiracy
Fuck that Yasuo buff. I was finally happy not laning regularly vs that piece of shit. Also Thresh gets another skin? I hate that Riot likes him. I hate that champ even exists. Thank god Nidalee didn't get buffed or Riot would've nailed all 3.
On a positive note, upcoming Ashe changes look very interesting. I've wished I could like the champion, but she's just so mundane in her current form.
On April 29 2015 16:31 JazzVortical wrote: Fuck that Yasuo buff. I was finally happy not laning regularly vs that piece of shit. Also Thresh gets another skin? I hate that Riot likes him. I hate that champ even exists. Thank god Nidalee didn't get buffed or Riot would've nailed all 3.
On a positive note, upcoming Ashe changes look very interesting. I've wished I could like the champion, but she's just so mundane in her current form.
On April 29 2015 16:16 TheHumanSensation wrote: Tough call. They really used words to suggest that they're promoting Ashe as a utility-carry, but then added way too much (imo) damage for this plan. If it works out, I could see them doing this to all crits and then just focusing on the utility aspects of Ashe. /conspiracy
While they certainly nuked a lot of the utility of w they didn't ass that much damage.
The thing that gets me though is that the base bonus damage on her passive actually makes buying crit less effective compared to buying AD the same as if any champion got 10% free crit (that was not effected by the IE crit bonus) that it would make buying crit on them less effective. Though this is probably an increase since the auto crit did the same thing.
The inability to "crit" on the first attack against someone who isn't slowed is pretty big. So Ashes damage profile went from heavy burst to very much consistent. They gave her a decent steroid to go along with it but still, no burst from crits and backloaded damage may be an issue. I would not be surprised that even with the steroids this is a DPS reduction over the course of many fights. Plus it means that a few champions are hard counters to Ashe because they can't be slowed and therefore Ashe can't crit them.
Shiv is almost right out because you can no longer fully crit on the passive and because unless you volley first you're going to probably hit a non-slowed target, guaranteeing the low damage version.
The bonus damage on her q doesn't appear to crit either but that might just be me having a hard time reading the effect.
Edit: ar least one person in the thread is thinking that you activate q (which has an 18 second cd btw) and your autos do 2.35 AD x crit. That is not true. The value listed is the total damage on the attack so you do, at max q, 1.35 x crit (if it crits, currently it looks like on hit damag when I tested it)
That isn't too great, not bad, but not great. Especially since you just lost 1.5 auto attacks worth of burst(plus shiv proc crit) you have to make up before you're back to old Ashe DPS. Plus you've got weaker laning and slower item timing due to less gold (from both weaker laning and e).
I don't buy that the e gold was inconsequential. Item timings are important and it only takes a bit to get that key item timing before your opponent in a close game.
I'm pretty happy with the Mundo cleaver change. It will certainly make life easier when you're getting bullied in lane (that is, pretty much in every lane). Pretty sure I can pick him up as my main top laner again. Recently I was getting tired of Irelias slapping my face. By the way does anyone know what the deal is with Irelia being picked or banned pretty much every game now ? Is it just for me ?
On April 29 2015 13:03 Frudgey wrote: So on the topic of Ryze, I had a question. Particularly, how does one lane against him when playing a melee bruiser?
I was playing Darius against Ryze and I had a super rough time in lane. I think I gave him way too much respect early on in lane, but it felt like he did a TON of damage. Like he started mana crystal and some health potions and it really felt like he hit like a truck.
This might be a moot question given the Ryze rework is just around the corner (or already here) but I was wondering if you guys had some general tips.
Thanks in advance!
It takes a while for current Ryze to become a consistent damage threat. He's super weak 1-3 as long as you have some way to close a gap(which includes apprehend.) After asserting dominance early, he takes a really long time to become relevant.
No, Ryze vs melee at level 1 is incredibly one-sided for Ryze. His Q hits for something like 70-80 damage which is a lot, and he can easily cast it 3-4 times if you try to last hit the first minion wave. Basically, unless you wave a way of farming from range (Shen, Mundo, etc.) you have to let him push the wave and use the bushes to try and sneak some farm.
You've got to wait till level 2 (or 3 depending on the champion) at least to fight/contest him, and if you're not careful you'll be too low to attempt that after his harass from the first 2 waves.
Well, that was pre-rework.
On April 29 2015 16:11 sob3k wrote: Do you guys think Ashe is a test case implying an imminent move away from random crit?
Or a bad sign that they aren't going in that direction, as its now part of Ashe's "special identity"...
Red posts a few days ago pretty much said that they're not looking to change crit because of stuff like fishing for crits in lane, how more satisfying it is to see the big numbers over just hitting a little harder every auto, etc.
how can you bully mundo when he has 1k range skillshot which is also a nuke and slow and like 4 s cd and can last hit everything with it espceailly now its free
black cleaver is basically made for xin zhao though its probably decent for garen we'll have to see
On April 29 2015 18:43 Slayer91 wrote: how can you bully mundo when he has 1k range skillshot which is also a nuke and slow and like 4 s cd and can last hit everything with it espceailly now its free
black cleaver is basically made for xin zhao though its probably decent for garen we'll have to see
By getting bullied I mean spending the whole laning phase under your tower. Not necessarily feeding/getting out-cs'd. Maybe I'm playing him wrong though but if I'm facing Irelia with ignite I'd rather not try to fight her 1v1 befre I have items lol.
On April 29 2015 16:40 GolemMadness wrote: Yasuo still looks like he'll be shit.
Still annoying as all hell to lane against, shit or not. And now better lategame (only slightly, but still). I'm just spouting my personal bias against the champ.
mundo is dumb as fuck and i have no idea why they try to bring him back, have people already forget how silly he was when he was good/popular, laning against that champion was one of the most dull and non interactive things in league
On April 29 2015 18:43 Slayer91 wrote: how can you bully mundo when he has 1k range skillshot which is also a nuke and slow and like 4 s cd and can last hit everything with it espceailly now its free
black cleaver is basically made for xin zhao though its probably decent for garen we'll have to see
By getting bullied I mean spending the whole laning phase under your tower. Not necessarily feeding/getting out-cs'd. Maybe I'm playing him wrong though but if I'm facing Irelia with ignite I'd rather not try to fight her 1v1 befre I have items lol.
you dont have to be at your tower at all though irelia can't really engage properly anyway if you aren't next to a low hp creep
On April 29 2015 18:54 kongoline wrote: mundo is dumb as fuck and i have no idea why they try to bring him back, have people already forget how silly he was when he was good/popular, laning against that champion was one of the most dull and non interactive things in league
Some of us like Mundo. TP Smite Mundo infinite Q farm powerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Also the Black Cleaver build path means that the only Brutaliser item is Ghostblade? But nice to have another Phage item since they changed Frozen Mallet.
Also LoL at the ARAM surrender timer change after such a ridiculous amount of time.
On April 29 2015 21:40 Lonyo wrote: Also the Black Cleaver build path means that the only Brutaliser item is Ghostblade? But nice to have another Phage item since they changed Frozen Mallet.
Also LoL at the ARAM surrender timer change after such a ridiculous amount of time.
On April 30 2015 00:51 ticklishmusic wrote: You think Cleaver will be good on Vi? Think about how good it'll be on Hecarim...
I dunno, I don't buy the BC hype on Hecarim when Triforce exists.
On April 30 2015 00:41 Alaric wrote: It gives her CDR and some stickiness, not as good as Warrior because no flat ArPen but it should scale decently and let you go Cinderhulk I guess.
Ideally, you buy both. However, the new build path is much more amicable to games where she's forced onto Cinderhulk.
Regarding Ashe, I have a bunch of one off thoughts:
Volley still applies Frost Shot, which makes it likely that a single Volley at a creep wave is all she needs to get a full stack of Focus for Q. That's going to make her laning phase interesting.
The flat +20% slow boost when activating Ranger's Focus, combined with auto-scaling on passive Frost Shot, is scary. Pre-6 Ashe will be able to slow somebody as if she had Rank 4 Q, which is pretty big for assisting ganks.
10% additional damage on autos starting at level 1 is a pretty big deal, especially with how easy it is to apply Frost Shot.
I think Ashe is a super cool champion who plays differently than other ADCs, and am thrilled at the idea of an Ashe who has the same identity but is good in modern League.
This has been a post by TL's official Riot apologist.
On April 30 2015 00:34 LightningStrike wrote: You forgot to put the patch notes in the op :O
After talking it thru with Lunar-chan, I've decided to stop copy/pasting the patch note contents into the OP. It was never as simple as copy/pasting the code over. Often times Lunar or I would have to go in and edit the code so it wouldn't break the page formatting here on LL.net. We ultimately decided to cut that part out of the OP since it wasn't really worth the struggle every time and leave the link to the official Riot patch notes instead.
Is the new black cleaver going to be any good on attack speed characters that can really apply on hit effects fast? Tiger Udyr? - 400 health also works well with cinder hulk Nocturne? Skarner? - 400 health also works well with cinder hulk
On April 30 2015 01:08 Ketara wrote: I think Ashe is a super cool champion who plays differently than other ADCs, and am thrilled at the idea of an Ashe who has the same identity but is good in modern League.
This has been a post by TL's official Riot apologist.
On April 30 2015 01:58 General_Winter wrote: Is the new black cleaver going to be any good on attack speed characters that can really apply on hit effects fast? Tiger Udyr? - 400 health also works well with cinder hulk Nocturne? Skarner? - 400 health also works well with cinder hulk
xin zhao wukong on hit effects arent good wtf you want someone with high AD so that they can spam low cd ad spells and wreck
udyr isnt a target with high sticking potential but the stats are so good it might still be okay on him top lane i guess udyr can insta stack it would be okay vs mass tanks
On April 30 2015 01:02 Seuss wrote: Regarding Ashe, I have a bunch of one off thoughts:
Volley still applies Frost Shot, which makes it likely that a single Volley at a creep wave is all she needs to get a full stack of Focus for Q. That's going to make her laning phase interesting.
The flat +20% slow boost when activating Ranger's Focus, combined with auto-scaling on passive Frost Shot, is scary. Pre-6 Ashe will be able to slow somebody as if she had Rank 4 Q, which is pretty big for assisting ganks.
10% additional damage on autos starting at level 1 is a pretty big deal, especially with how easy it is to apply Frost Shot.
We'll see how this shakes out.
Yeah. I think she'll like long drawn out trades with a champion like Nami. Start a fight, eat the pokes, then extend the trade til enemy abilities back up with the onhit slow Then you just use your range and slow to disengage.
On April 30 2015 00:34 LightningStrike wrote: You forgot to put the patch notes in the op :O
After talking it thru with Lunar-chan, I've decided to stop copy/pasting the patch note contents into the OP. It was never as simple as copy/pasting the code over. Often times Lunar or I would have to go in and edit the code so it wouldn't break the page formatting here on LL.net. We ultimately decided to cut that part out of the OP since it wasn't really worth the struggle every time and leave the link to the official Riot patch notes instead.
On April 30 2015 00:34 LightningStrike wrote: You forgot to put the patch notes in the op :O
After talking it thru with Lunar-chan, I've decided to stop copy/pasting the patch note contents into the OP. It was never as simple as copy/pasting the code over. Often times Lunar or I would have to go in and edit the code so it wouldn't break the page formatting here on LL.net. We ultimately decided to cut that part out of the OP since it wasn't really worth the struggle every time and leave the link to the official Riot patch notes instead.
sad about this because whenever I needed to look up patchchanges I would go to this thread, open the spoiler and ctrl+f the champion. Appreciate the effort though.
On April 30 2015 00:34 LightningStrike wrote: You forgot to put the patch notes in the op :O
After talking it thru with Lunar-chan, I've decided to stop copy/pasting the patch note contents into the OP. It was never as simple as copy/pasting the code over. Often times Lunar or I would have to go in and edit the code so it wouldn't break the page formatting here on LL.net. We ultimately decided to cut that part out of the OP since it wasn't really worth the struggle every time and leave the link to the official Riot patch notes instead.
sad about this because whenever I needed to look up patchchanges I would go to this thread, open the spoiler and ctrl+f the champion. Appreciate the effort though.
You can still do the ctrl+f on the Riot page. ;;
On April 30 2015 02:50 nobodywonder wrote: hey guys, I've been making a Janna guide. I was wondering whether I should make a new Janna strategy thread or maybe get ownership of the old thread.
So... With Runaan's when you pop the Q it applies the bonus damage through the Runaan bolts too (not to mention the 10 free damage Runaan has now)? That's what it looked like to me.
If so, You go something like IE/BT > Runaan > LW > BC and just watch their front line get decimated after losing their armor in 1 Q-boosted AA?
my thoughts on pbe ashe: the new, relatively small steroids will be noticable and welcome. but the big thing is that her slow doesn't cost mana anymore. during the laneing phase you can't spam frost shot atm because it would drain your mana pool too quickly. the poke, kiting and chaining cc ability will be very strong i assume.
just went cinderhulk->randuins->spirit visage->BC->RG on jungle garen and wound up with over 5k hp. Was way ahead otherwise RG probably would have been thornmail but going super fast was great and the huge healthpool and regen were hilarious.
Garen doesn't even clear that bad, and he's got plenty of damage if he reaches his targets. He just needs your lanes not to be Vlad and the level not to be too high (no idea what my normal Elo was at the time) and he can at least coast by.
Well it seems BC isn't good on ADC's. Imaqtpie tried BC on blue Ezreal. He literally did no damage lol.The CDR is nice, but doesn't matter since you just don't do damage. lol
Saw Saint get executed as jungle Garen. Seems like some jungle paths don't work according to Saint. Oh old man Saint.
The first clear is pretty terrible because spin does basically nothing to large monsters so all you have is an aa reset on a long cd, and probably aren't running AS runes.
I tried Garen and didn't really like it much though I did well in game.
He does a lot of damage if you go BC but he doesn't really seem very worthwhile until like level 9 so I'm not sure how much I like him as a jungler. It feels like going against Lee Sin, Gragas, RekSai would just make you lose too much early.
On April 30 2015 04:53 nobodywonder wrote: Well it seems BC isn't good on ADC's. Imaqtpie tried BC on blue Ezreal. He literally did no damage lol.The CDR is nice, but doesn't matter since you just don't do damage. lol
Saw Saint get executed as jungle Garen. Seems like some jungle paths don't work according to Saint. Oh old man Saint.
I mean... didn't we learn that when the reworked it in S3? lol
On April 30 2015 04:53 nobodywonder wrote: Well it seems BC isn't good on ADC's. Imaqtpie tried BC on blue Ezreal. He literally did no damage lol.The CDR is nice, but doesn't matter since you just don't do damage. lol
Saw Saint get executed as jungle Garen. Seems like some jungle paths don't work according to Saint. Oh old man Saint.
Well blue ez takes a while to ramp up anyways, core is ibg, muramana, lw. With botrk buff, pretty sure you want botrk over bt most of them time, maybe bc over mecurial scmitar as last item?
Just played against new Ryze, granted, it was Galio. Turns out he can regularly trigger his passive in lane since the stacks last pretty long, so I'm not sure about the damage (and whenever he used his E I only saw it because of the MR debuff swirl under my model, good job Riot), but the shield gets pretty annoying to deal with if you're trying to trade often. x)
On April 30 2015 04:53 nobodywonder wrote: Well it seems BC isn't good on ADC's. Imaqtpie tried BC on blue Ezreal. He literally did no damage lol.The CDR is nice, but doesn't matter since you just don't do damage. lol
Saw Saint get executed as jungle Garen. Seems like some jungle paths don't work according to Saint. Oh old man Saint.
Well blue ez takes a while to ramp up anyways, core is ibg, muramana, lw. With botrk buff, pretty sure you want botrk over bt most of them time, maybe bc over mecurial scmitar as last item?
Giving out qss and 40 damage for useless armor shred on blue Ezreal and additional 20% to 25% cdr + blue buffs? I call not worth.
On April 30 2015 04:53 nobodywonder wrote: Well it seems BC isn't good on ADC's. Imaqtpie tried BC on blue Ezreal. He literally did no damage lol.The CDR is nice, but doesn't matter since you just don't do damage. lol
Saw Saint get executed as jungle Garen. Seems like some jungle paths don't work according to Saint. Oh old man Saint.
Well blue ez takes a while to ramp up anyways, core is ibg, muramana, lw. With botrk buff, pretty sure you want botrk over bt most of them time, maybe bc over mecurial scmitar as last item?
Giving out qss and 40 damage for useless armor shred on blue Ezreal and additional 20% to 25% cdr + blue buffs? I call not worth.
Might be worth if you can get merc treads instead of ionian.
the new ryze ult+e works like the old AP tristana. If someone is standing in a big wave of minions or just clumped up really hard it does a million damage
On April 30 2015 05:49 nafta wrote: Why do you need tenacity on blue ez???
Random cc landing, more or less a riskier version of why people get qss on blue ez, except now you get some more apen with bc. I'm not saying this is the 'new' blue build, I'm just suggesting where people could insert it into the build and why they might want to.
On April 30 2015 05:49 nafta wrote: Why do you need tenacity on blue ez???
Random cc landing, more or less a riskier version of why people get qss on blue ez, except now you get some more apen with bc. I'm not saying this is the 'new' blue build, I'm just suggesting where people could insert it into the build and why they might want to.
Can we just agree on "black cleaver is shit on all adcs" and move on, lol. Instead of theorycrafting about bloody blue Ezreal who is useless in 99% of situations.
On April 30 2015 05:49 nafta wrote: Why do you need tenacity on blue ez???
Random cc landing, more or less a riskier version of why people get qss on blue ez, except now you get some more apen with bc. I'm not saying this is the 'new' blue build, I'm just suggesting where people could insert it into the build and why they might want to.
Can we just agree on "black cleaver is shit on all adcs" and move on, lol. Instead of theorycrafting about bloody blue Ezreal who is useless in 99% of situations.
It MIGHT be good on Varus, but that's probably the only ADC that would benefit from it (assuming you go Legolas Varus and just look to poke people with max range Qs when you have 400 AD).
Ashe with BC seems potentially useful-- a little movespeed could be useful, and she can instantly shred the entire team. Fits the idea of a utility carry too.
On April 30 2015 05:49 nafta wrote: Why do you need tenacity on blue ez???
Random cc landing, more or less a riskier version of why people get qss on blue ez, except now you get some more apen with bc. I'm not saying this is the 'new' blue build, I'm just suggesting where people could insert it into the build and why they might want to.
Can we just agree on "black cleaver is shit on all adcs" and move on, lol. Instead of theorycrafting about bloody blue Ezreal who is useless in 99% of situations.
blue ez is great for soloq imo.
especially since soloq has a lot less emphasis on mega tanks than competitive does.
in terms of competitive? yeah blue ez is near bottom tier (still better than ashe, varus, mf, etc. tho)
Tried jungle garen. Almost died at red LOL didn't practice route and use scaling resists and and no attack speed. Did pretty badly early but was alright later, didn't feel that impactful but the enemies disagreed lel
Kaptajn Kronow: the fucking tank meta Kaptajn Kronow: so fucking dumb mania446: y uuR: it is fcking brain meta Yung Mitko: ye wtf bro Kaptajn Kronow: it's the worst meta Kaptajn Kronow: no skill no mechanics Teutonica: we had Teutonica: only 1 tank Teutonica: LOL Kaptajn Kronow: just buy cinderhulk mania446: u pref last meta with only zed xD Kaptajn Kronow: yes and that guy carried you all Kaptajn Kronow: garen 1v5 mania446: u had gragas mania446: better
On April 30 2015 04:35 Alaric wrote: Garen doesn't even clear that bad, and he's got plenty of damage if he reaches his targets. He just needs your lanes not to be Vlad and the level not to be too high (no idea what my normal Elo was at the time) and he can at least coast by.
vlad isn't that bad wtf l2p son i mean he has zero cc if he doesn't snowball and your ignite is up he is pretty boned
i'll hav to do the calcs on cdr vs LW because it doesn't feel strnog but its hard having W up 6 seconds every 12 lategame has to be strong its -15% dmg taken on avgerage and if you use it well it should be higher than average
On April 30 2015 06:48 Slayer91 wrote: Tried jungle garen. Almost died at red LOL didn't practice route and use scaling resists and and no attack speed. Did pretty badly early but was alright later, didn't feel that impactful but the enemies disagreed lel
Kaptajn Kronow: the fucking tank meta Kaptajn Kronow: so fucking dumb mania446: y uuR: it is fcking brain meta Yung Mitko: ye wtf bro Kaptajn Kronow: it's the worst meta Kaptajn Kronow: no skill no mechanics Teutonica: we had Teutonica: only 1 tank Teutonica: LOL Kaptajn Kronow: just buy cinderhulk mania446: u pref last meta with only zed xD Kaptajn Kronow: yes and that guy carried you all Kaptajn Kronow: garen 1v5 mania446: u had gragas mania446: better
On April 30 2015 04:35 Alaric wrote: Garen doesn't even clear that bad, and he's got plenty of damage if he reaches his targets. He just needs your lanes not to be Vlad and the level not to be too high (no idea what my normal Elo was at the time) and he can at least coast by.
vlad isn't that bad wtf l2p son i mean he has zero cc if he doesn't snowball and your ignite is up he is pretty boned
I think Alaric means that if you're jungling your laners need to have cc, although I do need some tips on the Vlad matchup. Teut pls?
Just tried out the new ryze in a game and I have to say this champion is absolutely worthless now. They nerfed his damage completely, and in a team fight he cant pick people with his Q anymore :/
Big problem we are going to see with new Ryze is the Gragas issue. People are still gonna play "blow up all the squishies and hope you're ahead enough to not die" Ryze, when really, he's basically a magic damage ADC now. Fundamentally different playstyle. Q is so much of your damage that you shouldn't be going after squishies without an opportunity. You've also got a 36% MR shred on your E. So.
Then again, I also think Veigar is one W change from being one of the best teamfight mages in the game, so maybe I dunno anything ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
On April 30 2015 06:31 ticklishmusic wrote: Ashe with BC seems potentially useful-- a little movespeed could be useful, and she can instantly shred the entire team. Fits the idea of a utility carry too.
It is never in the ADs interest to shred the enemy team for his/her allies compared to an ally shredding the enemy team for them
BC can find use on ADs but only if their team doesn't have one already and they already have whisper. The only real situation you're going to want it is if you've got IE, BT/BotRK,PD,LW and don't need the QSS on scimitar.
I dunno whats so difficult everyone else harasses you but has CC why do people think vlad is diffult
I actually have a video of me getting bumberbanged by vlad because I went garen mid (we had a player called Wind Of Justice and i felt compelled to play garen) basically I dived lvl 6 and then lost like 2 fights where it was a race to my auto and his Q at the end and he won
but I lost mostly because the lane was so short by the time i reach him its fucking tower range LOL and not sufficiently good mechaniks too obviously
vlad is obviously super snowbally as well because of how spell vamp and getting hp for ap works basically if you can burst him he sucks if you can't hes god
On April 30 2015 05:49 nafta wrote: Why do you need tenacity on blue ez???
Random cc landing, more or less a riskier version of why people get qss on blue ez, except now you get some more apen with bc. I'm not saying this is the 'new' blue build, I'm just suggesting where people could insert it into the build and why they might want to.
Can we just agree on "black cleaver is shit on all adcs" and move on, lol. Instead of theorycrafting about bloody blue Ezreal who is useless in 99% of situations.
It MIGHT be good on Varus, but that's probably the only ADC that would benefit from it (assuming you go Legolas Varus and just look to poke people with max range Qs when you have 400 AD).
Well, lol, you can go 40% cdr on Varus even as botlaner and be fine, because noone has idea how to play against Varus in current world and abuse his weaknesses.
But even on Varus, considering that BC isn't getting built from brutalizer, it's just waste of money you can spend on possible ie/ghostblade/ludicities and building phage first on Varus just sounds awful.
On April 30 2015 06:54 smOOthMayDie wrote: Just tried out the new ryze in a game and I have to say this champion is absolutely worthless now. They nerfed his damage completely, and in a team fight he cant pick people with his Q anymore :/
abuse muramana active on him, supposedly his e procs it like a million times.
On April 30 2015 06:57 Slayer91 wrote: I dunno whats so difficult everyone else harasses you but has CC why do people think vlad is diffult
I actually have a video of me getting bumberbanged by vlad because I went garen mid (we had a player called Wind Of Justice and i felt compelled to play garen) basically I dived lvl 6 and then lost like 2 fights where it was a race to my auto and his Q at the end and he won
but I lost mostly because the lane was so short by the time i reach him its fucking tower range LOL and not sufficiently good mechaniks too obviously
vlad is obviously super snowbally as well because of how spell vamp and getting hp for ap works basically if you can burst him he sucks if you can't hes god
Vlad is difficult because he harasses you endlessly, and sustains more damage than you can do past the first few levels, is incredibly hard to dive under tower and farms well under there, outscales you brutally, and forces you to build a bunch of MR in lane and then get wrecked by their ADC.
You might get a kill on him early if he doesn't respect your allin, but the lane rapidly goes out of control and you get pushed out of lane while being unable to get him low. You have to use E to go in on him, which results in a pushed lane and a safe tower to CS under for him.
I've beaten several awful vlad's in lane, but a good one takes zero chances and you just have no opportunity to do anything, while you lose more and more.
On April 30 2015 06:31 ticklishmusic wrote: Ashe with BC seems potentially useful-- a little movespeed could be useful, and she can instantly shred the entire team. Fits the idea of a utility carry too.
It is never in the ADs interest to shred the enemy team for his/her allies compared to an ally shredding the enemy team for them
BC can find use on ADs but only if their team doesn't have one already and they already have whisper. The only real situation you're going to want it is if you've got IE, BT/BotRK,PD,LW and don't need the QSS on scimitar.
BC seems like it would have a nice niche in heavy AD comps where someone mass applying the shred could counter armor stacking across the board. I like the synergy between Ashe slow and her getting a speed buff from BC too, as well as how a little extra HP could help an immobile AD as well.
Then again, all the stuff around Ashe is pure theorycraft since we have n idea about the numbers on her new kit.
New Ryze is interesting, with good timing you can get 2 full rotations almost instantly, the burst is really strong. Not sure how good he really is, but I think with the old Q he'd be completely op. It's pretty easy to get lazy and miss point blank Qs, but it's just a the old habits of mashing the keyboard dying hard
edit: also e might be worth maxing second, it's a buttload of damage now. Not yet sure if it's better than a longer root, but I'll tinker with it
New Ryze is destroying me right now I have no idea what's going on, his particles are so fucking weird and I didn't know he has a random shield now rofl.
E radius is quite small, but its usable, you only need 3 hits to max MR reduction.
He is in general very weak without passive, but is fucking crushing with it up, its absolutely massive.
Passive management has pretty solid depth based on if you want your W or E up sooner.
His new auto is incredibly fast, weaving autos into his combo is a very real possibility now, making frozen gauntlet potentially a great item on him, as it has exactly the amount of CDR he wants, plus all the stats he likes.
E max over W (or split max) is probably standard now? You don't get too much from W max, no cd reduction, mana cost gets very big. Not sure. E is the spell you want in lane.
Frozen heart is still totally a great buy on him, The item is 140% efficient without the aura, which applies the oppression defensive mastery and gives it a 3% damage reduction aura. Losing 10% CDR from overcapping lategame is like 325g of stats, the item is still sick good on him.
Feels a lot more like a mid laner than a top. Landing Q in a minion wave aint gonna happen, and I doubt E can carry the lane for you. Plus his escape is nonexistant and diving him with passive down is gonna be really easy.
I think I'm permabanning Gragas. He manages to be even tankier than Sion, when he comes from the jungle, but he adds the non-channeled cc and busted-Sejuani level damage, that's way too obnoxious to deal with.
Starting mana crystal on ryze is pretty terrible, his ratio's are not that great, especially early game.
200mana is 5 damage on Q.
Dorans 15ap is 8.25, plus 60hp, and the mana regen. Dorans will regen 200 mana in like 3 minutes unless you literally cannot cs.
given that his early game is so fucking bad already, I would say its better to go the dorans. Then grab the catalyst first back.
Ryzes mana ratios in general are not that great, its more of a side bonus than a primary scaling.
For example, a fully charged tear only adds 30 damage to his max rank Q (his best practical mana scaling). That 30 damage is equivalent to 55AP, which only costs like 1100 gold. Tear costs 720 and takes a long long time to stack.
On April 29 2015 09:58 OhTwoMise wrote: These Ashe changes make me very sad. I've always felt she was one of the better champions in the game in terms of design. She's got a ton of legacy design features that are slowly being phased out of the game, so I supposed I shouldn't be too optimistic, particularly given Tristana just followed a pretty similar trajectory and wound up in a much less interesting place if not an outright worse one.
What's even more baffling to me is that she seems to be doing very well in terms of pick- and winrate at all levels below pro. And I can't imagine this update solves any of her problems on the pro scene, which as far as I can tell are primarily related to Crucible.
But what aspects of her kit actually got removed?
Her old passive which was completely nonexistant past lvl 1 brush cheese.
She now has the slow permanently.
Volley is a bit different but has basically the same functionality.
E vision is still there.
R is identical.
So the only "legacy feature" that she lost was the gold generation....which was 600 gold at 200cs...basically a completely worthless noob trap.
You're conflating power level and good design. They aren't necessarily related. I think the changes are probably going to wind up being a net gain or neutral for most Ashe players, the exception being those that are heavily volley-centric (which I am). But that's not what my complaint is about. They're systematically designing balance tools out of their game. The easiest and most-often talked about example is mana costs, which this re-work has in spades. They're also making Hawkshot a true one-point-wonder, which it wasn't before. This is a kind of small change since it was so close, but I'd still call it bad design.
The crit mechanic is unnecessarily complicated. I don't have a problem with complexity in general, but only if it has meaning. There are a lot of places where added complexity opens up new design space or changes balance. But it's just obfuscation here. The only reason I can see for a change like this is to reduce the variance of crit, except Riot's already stated that they're okay with that variance because players find the big numbers viscerally satisfying. So again, I'd call this bad design, although I don't think it's as bad as the mana or Volley changes because it doesn't really have an impact on the game. It's just needless and silly.
Volley is the big one, though. First, I think you're underselling the Volley nerf by a LOT. Volley is everything to Ashe. Waveclear, poke, DPS, disengage, teamfight control. And it's getting substantially worse at all of those things. The ideal scenario is the same. The problem is that the strength of Volley is the combination of its versatility and its reliability. Ideal case Volleys will be unchanged, but that's not why Volley was strong. Ideal case Volley actually looks pretty crappy compared to the ideal case for almost any other nuke. What makes Volley so strong is that you can reliably get very good value out of it.
Volley exists in basically unique design space right now. I can't think of any other long-range, reliable, low cooldown AoE damage in League. Which is probably why they're nerfing it. But Volley is pretty much the dream on a design level right now. It manages to occupy a powerful and unique niche without being overpowered. Without even being oppressive in the majority of cases. And they're looking not just to change the way Ashe functions with this change, but to remove that niche from the game entirely. And in a game like League with as many interactions as it has, removing any niche from the game entirely is removing a future balance tool.
So my grievance here isn't that I think the new Ashe will necessarily be less powerful. It's that I think they're both taking good design and making it worse and reducing the number of options and playstyles in the game in general. This isn't unique to the Ashe rework specifically, but I think it's by far the least justifiable instance. Regardless of my feelings on, say, Nidalee or Karma, I can see why Riot would feel that change was necessary, but by pretty much any meaningful metric, Ashe is in a good place right now.
On April 30 2015 08:55 sob3k wrote: Starting mana crystal on ryze is pretty terrible, his ratio's are not that great, especially early game.
200mana is 5 damage on Q.
Dorans 15ap is 8.25, plus 60hp, and the mana regen. Dorans will regen 200 mana in like 3 minutes unless you literally cannot cs.
given that his early game is so fucking bad already, I would say its better to go the dorans. Then grab the catalyst first back.
Ryzes mana ratios in general are not that great, its more of a side bonus than a primary scaling.
For example, a fully charged tear only adds 30 damage to his max rank Q (his best practical mana scaling). That 30 damage is equivalent to 55AP, which only costs like 1100 gold. Tear costs 720 and takes a long long time to stack.
What do you think about flask start? is he mana hungry enough to need it early on?
On April 30 2015 05:49 nafta wrote: Why do you need tenacity on blue ez???
Random cc landing, more or less a riskier version of why people get qss on blue ez, except now you get some more apen with bc. I'm not saying this is the 'new' blue build, I'm just suggesting where people could insert it into the build and why they might want to.
Can we just agree on "black cleaver is shit on all adcs" and move on, lol. Instead of theorycrafting about bloody blue Ezreal who is useless in 99% of situations.
It MIGHT be good on Varus, but that's probably the only ADC that would benefit from it (assuming you go Legolas Varus and just look to poke people with max range Qs when you have 400 AD).
Well, lol, you can go 40% cdr on Varus even as botlaner and be fine, because noone has idea how to play against Varus in current world and abuse his weaknesses.
But even on Varus, considering that BC isn't getting built from brutalizer, it's just waste of money you can spend on possible ie/ghostblade/ludicities and building phage first on Varus just sounds awful.
I don't think you'd build BC on Varus first, like you'd probably build it 3rd or 4th depending upon how things go (assuming you start with Tear > Reaver > Lucidities > Bruta > BC). Maybe I'm wrong with the tear suggestion, but even with Reaver it seems like you run out of mana so fast with Q harass. Though if you take Varus mid it would probably be easier/better because you can take blue buff and just skip tear entirely.
On April 29 2015 09:58 OhTwoMise wrote: These Ashe changes make me very sad. I've always felt she was one of the better champions in the game in terms of design. She's got a ton of legacy design features that are slowly being phased out of the game, so I supposed I shouldn't be too optimistic, particularly given Tristana just followed a pretty similar trajectory and wound up in a much less interesting place if not an outright worse one.
What's even more baffling to me is that she seems to be doing very well in terms of pick- and winrate at all levels below pro. And I can't imagine this update solves any of her problems on the pro scene, which as far as I can tell are primarily related to Crucible.
But what aspects of her kit actually got removed?
Her old passive which was completely nonexistant past lvl 1 brush cheese.
She now has the slow permanently.
Volley is a bit different but has basically the same functionality.
E vision is still there.
R is identical.
So the only "legacy feature" that she lost was the gold generation....which was 600 gold at 200cs...basically a completely worthless noob trap.
You're conflating power level and good design. They aren't necessarily related. I think the changes are probably going to wind up being a net gain or neutral for most Ashe players, the exception being those that are heavily volley-centric (which I am). But that's not what my complaint is about. They're systematically designing balance tools out of their game. The easiest and most-often talked about example is mana costs, which this re-work has in spades. They're also making Hawkshot a true one-point-wonder, which it wasn't before. This is a kind of small change since it was so close, but I'd still call it bad design.
The crit mechanic is unnecessarily complicated. I don't have a problem with complexity in general, but only if it has meaning. There are a lot of places where added complexity opens up new design space or changes balance. But it's just obfuscation here. The only reason I can see for a change like this is to reduce the variance of crit, except Riot's already stated that they're okay with that variance because players find the big numbers viscerally satisfying. So again, I'd call this bad design, although I don't think it's as bad as the mana or Volley changes because it doesn't really have an impact on the game. It's just needless and silly.
Volley is the big one, though. First, I think you're underselling the Volley nerf by a LOT. Volley is everything to Ashe. Waveclear, poke, DPS, disengage, teamfight control. And it's getting substantially worse at all of those things. The ideal scenario is the same. The problem is that the strength of Volley is the combination of its versatility and its reliability. Ideal case Volleys will be unchanged, but that's not why Volley was strong. Ideal case Volley actually looks pretty crappy compared to the ideal case for almost any other nuke. What makes Volley so strong is that you can reliably get very good value out of it.
Volley exists in basically unique design space right now. I can't think of any other long-range, reliable, low cooldown AoE damage in League. Which is probably why they're nerfing it. But Volley is pretty much the dream on a design level right now. It manages to occupy a powerful and unique niche without being overpowered. Without even being oppressive in the majority of cases. And they're looking not just to change the way Ashe functions with this change, but to remove that niche from the game entirely. And in a game like League with as many interactions as it has, removing any niche from the game entirely is removing a future balance tool.
So my grievance here isn't that I think the new Ashe will necessarily be less powerful. It's that I think they're both taking good design and making it worse and reducing the number of options and playstyles in the game in general. This isn't unique to the Ashe rework specifically, but I think it's by far the least justifiable instance. Regardless of my feelings on, say, Nidalee or Karma, I can see why Riot would feel that change was necessary, but by pretty much any meaningful metric, Ashe is in a good place right now.
I don't think I agree with a single thing in this post.
There's a lot to talk about, and I don't want to talk about it, but I would like to question why you think that Ashe's old passive was good design, and why the new passive is worse.
On April 29 2015 09:58 OhTwoMise wrote: These Ashe changes make me very sad. I've always felt she was one of the better champions in the game in terms of design. She's got a ton of legacy design features that are slowly being phased out of the game, so I supposed I shouldn't be too optimistic, particularly given Tristana just followed a pretty similar trajectory and wound up in a much less interesting place if not an outright worse one.
What's even more baffling to me is that she seems to be doing very well in terms of pick- and winrate at all levels below pro. And I can't imagine this update solves any of her problems on the pro scene, which as far as I can tell are primarily related to Crucible.
But what aspects of her kit actually got removed?
Her old passive which was completely nonexistant past lvl 1 brush cheese.
She now has the slow permanently.
Volley is a bit different but has basically the same functionality.
E vision is still there.
R is identical.
So the only "legacy feature" that she lost was the gold generation....which was 600 gold at 200cs...basically a completely worthless noob trap.
You're conflating power level and good design. They aren't necessarily related. I think the changes are probably going to wind up being a net gain or neutral for most Ashe players, the exception being those that are heavily volley-centric (which I am). But that's not what my complaint is about. They're systematically designing balance tools out of their game. The easiest and most-often talked about example is mana costs, which this re-work has in spades. They're also making Hawkshot a true one-point-wonder, which it wasn't before. This is a kind of small change since it was so close, but I'd still call it bad design.
The crit mechanic is unnecessarily complicated. I don't have a problem with complexity in general, but only if it has meaning. There are a lot of places where added complexity opens up new design space or changes balance. But it's just obfuscation here. The only reason I can see for a change like this is to reduce the variance of crit, except Riot's already stated that they're okay with that variance because players find the big numbers viscerally satisfying. So again, I'd call this bad design, although I don't think it's as bad as the mana or Volley changes because it doesn't really have an impact on the game. It's just needless and silly.
Volley is the big one, though. First, I think you're underselling the Volley nerf by a LOT. Volley is everything to Ashe. Waveclear, poke, DPS, disengage, teamfight control. And it's getting substantially worse at all of those things. The ideal scenario is the same. The problem is that the strength of Volley is the combination of its versatility and its reliability. Ideal case Volleys will be unchanged, but that's not why Volley was strong. Ideal case Volley actually looks pretty crappy compared to the ideal case for almost any other nuke. What makes Volley so strong is that you can reliably get very good value out of it.
Volley exists in basically unique design space right now. I can't think of any other long-range, reliable, low cooldown AoE damage in League. Which is probably why they're nerfing it. But Volley is pretty much the dream on a design level right now. It manages to occupy a powerful and unique niche without being overpowered. Without even being oppressive in the majority of cases. And they're looking not just to change the way Ashe functions with this change, but to remove that niche from the game entirely. And in a game like League with as many interactions as it has, removing any niche from the game entirely is removing a future balance tool.
So my grievance here isn't that I think the new Ashe will necessarily be less powerful. It's that I think they're both taking good design and making it worse and reducing the number of options and playstyles in the game in general. This isn't unique to the Ashe rework specifically, but I think it's by far the least justifiable instance. Regardless of my feelings on, say, Nidalee or Karma, I can see why Riot would feel that change was necessary, but by pretty much any meaningful metric, Ashe is in a good place right now.
I don't think I agree with a single thing in this post.
There's a lot to talk about, and I don't want to talk about it, but I would like to question why you think that Ashe's old passive was good design, and why the new passive is worse.
The new passive is sort of convoluted. I mean at the lower levels it essentially reads "ashe slows people, and does bonus damage to slowed folks".
but the calculations to determine bonus damage is hard to calculate, for example doing the math to see at what AD and what crit strike does this passive pass the DPS level vs traditional crit damage calculation is pretty convoluted.
meanwhile having a stacking passive for crit is easier to understand at a very fundamental level based on what player is already used to (200% AD if crits, 250% ad if you have ie).
that being said, I don't actually hold these views in regards to the Ashe passive being redone, but I could see why ohtwomise would think so.
edit: while i don't think it changes her playstyle, you'll still be looking to initiate with ulti, while kiting back with volley and auto attacks. It does change how backloaded her damage is compared to her old kit.
On April 29 2015 09:58 OhTwoMise wrote: These Ashe changes make me very sad. I've always felt she was one of the better champions in the game in terms of design. She's got a ton of legacy design features that are slowly being phased out of the game, so I supposed I shouldn't be too optimistic, particularly given Tristana just followed a pretty similar trajectory and wound up in a much less interesting place if not an outright worse one.
What's even more baffling to me is that she seems to be doing very well in terms of pick- and winrate at all levels below pro. And I can't imagine this update solves any of her problems on the pro scene, which as far as I can tell are primarily related to Crucible.
But what aspects of her kit actually got removed?
Her old passive which was completely nonexistant past lvl 1 brush cheese.
She now has the slow permanently.
Volley is a bit different but has basically the same functionality.
E vision is still there.
R is identical.
So the only "legacy feature" that she lost was the gold generation....which was 600 gold at 200cs...basically a completely worthless noob trap.
You're conflating power level and good design. They aren't necessarily related. I think the changes are probably going to wind up being a net gain or neutral for most Ashe players, the exception being those that are heavily volley-centric (which I am). But that's not what my complaint is about. They're systematically designing balance tools out of their game. The easiest and most-often talked about example is mana costs, which this re-work has in spades. They're also making Hawkshot a true one-point-wonder, which it wasn't before. This is a kind of small change since it was so close, but I'd still call it bad design.
The crit mechanic is unnecessarily complicated. I don't have a problem with complexity in general, but only if it has meaning. There are a lot of places where added complexity opens up new design space or changes balance. But it's just obfuscation here. The only reason I can see for a change like this is to reduce the variance of crit, except Riot's already stated that they're okay with that variance because players find the big numbers viscerally satisfying. So again, I'd call this bad design, although I don't think it's as bad as the mana or Volley changes because it doesn't really have an impact on the game. It's just needless and silly.
Volley is the big one, though. First, I think you're underselling the Volley nerf by a LOT. Volley is everything to Ashe. Waveclear, poke, DPS, disengage, teamfight control. And it's getting substantially worse at all of those things. The ideal scenario is the same. The problem is that the strength of Volley is the combination of its versatility and its reliability. Ideal case Volleys will be unchanged, but that's not why Volley was strong. Ideal case Volley actually looks pretty crappy compared to the ideal case for almost any other nuke. What makes Volley so strong is that you can reliably get very good value out of it.
Volley exists in basically unique design space right now. I can't think of any other long-range, reliable, low cooldown AoE damage in League. Which is probably why they're nerfing it. But Volley is pretty much the dream on a design level right now. It manages to occupy a powerful and unique niche without being overpowered. Without even being oppressive in the majority of cases. And they're looking not just to change the way Ashe functions with this change, but to remove that niche from the game entirely. And in a game like League with as many interactions as it has, removing any niche from the game entirely is removing a future balance tool.
So my grievance here isn't that I think the new Ashe will necessarily be less powerful. It's that I think they're both taking good design and making it worse and reducing the number of options and playstyles in the game in general. This isn't unique to the Ashe rework specifically, but I think it's by far the least justifiable instance. Regardless of my feelings on, say, Nidalee or Karma, I can see why Riot would feel that change was necessary, but by pretty much any meaningful metric, Ashe is in a good place right now.
I don't think I agree with a single thing in this post.
There's a lot to talk about, and I don't want to talk about it, but I would like to question why you think that Ashe's old passive was good design, and why the new passive is worse.
I like the new passive, so obviously Q would need to be changed, but I do agree with his points on Volley, which right now is the perfect skill for the champion she should be. IMO if they just changed here Q + passive to the new ones this would be a great rework. The hawkshot change is too much like Kalista ghosts to me, which I hate Kalista ghosts as a mechanic.
On April 29 2015 09:58 OhTwoMise wrote: These Ashe changes make me very sad. I've always felt she was one of the better champions in the game in terms of design. She's got a ton of legacy design features that are slowly being phased out of the game, so I supposed I shouldn't be too optimistic, particularly given Tristana just followed a pretty similar trajectory and wound up in a much less interesting place if not an outright worse one.
What's even more baffling to me is that she seems to be doing very well in terms of pick- and winrate at all levels below pro. And I can't imagine this update solves any of her problems on the pro scene, which as far as I can tell are primarily related to Crucible.
But what aspects of her kit actually got removed?
Her old passive which was completely nonexistant past lvl 1 brush cheese.
She now has the slow permanently.
Volley is a bit different but has basically the same functionality.
E vision is still there.
R is identical.
So the only "legacy feature" that she lost was the gold generation....which was 600 gold at 200cs...basically a completely worthless noob trap.
You're conflating power level and good design. They aren't necessarily related. I think the changes are probably going to wind up being a net gain or neutral for most Ashe players, the exception being those that are heavily volley-centric (which I am). But that's not what my complaint is about. They're systematically designing balance tools out of their game. The easiest and most-often talked about example is mana costs, which this re-work has in spades. They're also making Hawkshot a true one-point-wonder, which it wasn't before. This is a kind of small change since it was so close, but I'd still call it bad design.
The crit mechanic is unnecessarily complicated. I don't have a problem with complexity in general, but only if it has meaning. There are a lot of places where added complexity opens up new design space or changes balance. But it's just obfuscation here. The only reason I can see for a change like this is to reduce the variance of crit, except Riot's already stated that they're okay with that variance because players find the big numbers viscerally satisfying. So again, I'd call this bad design, although I don't think it's as bad as the mana or Volley changes because it doesn't really have an impact on the game. It's just needless and silly.
Volley is the big one, though. First, I think you're underselling the Volley nerf by a LOT. Volley is everything to Ashe. Waveclear, poke, DPS, disengage, teamfight control. And it's getting substantially worse at all of those things. The ideal scenario is the same. The problem is that the strength of Volley is the combination of its versatility and its reliability. Ideal case Volleys will be unchanged, but that's not why Volley was strong. Ideal case Volley actually looks pretty crappy compared to the ideal case for almost any other nuke. What makes Volley so strong is that you can reliably get very good value out of it.
Volley exists in basically unique design space right now. I can't think of any other long-range, reliable, low cooldown AoE damage in League. Which is probably why they're nerfing it. But Volley is pretty much the dream on a design level right now. It manages to occupy a powerful and unique niche without being overpowered. Without even being oppressive in the majority of cases. And they're looking not just to change the way Ashe functions with this change, but to remove that niche from the game entirely. And in a game like League with as many interactions as it has, removing any niche from the game entirely is removing a future balance tool.
So my grievance here isn't that I think the new Ashe will necessarily be less powerful. It's that I think they're both taking good design and making it worse and reducing the number of options and playstyles in the game in general. This isn't unique to the Ashe rework specifically, but I think it's by far the least justifiable instance. Regardless of my feelings on, say, Nidalee or Karma, I can see why Riot would feel that change was necessary, but by pretty much any meaningful metric, Ashe is in a good place right now.
I don't think I agree with a single thing in this post.
There's a lot to talk about, and I don't want to talk about it, but I would like to question why you think that Ashe's old passive was good design, and why the new passive is worse.
The new passive is sort of convoluted. I mean at the lower levels it essentially reads "ashe slows people, and does bonus damage to slowed folks".
but the calculations to determine bonus damage is hard to calculate, for example doing the math to see at what AD and what crit strike does this passive pass the DPS level vs traditional crit damage calculation is pretty convoluted.
meanwhile having a stacking passive for crit is easier to understand at a very fundamental level based on what player is already used to (200% AD if crits, 250% ad if you have ie).
that being said, I don't actually hold these views in regards to the Ashe passive being redone, but I could see why ohtwomise would think so.
edit: while i don't think it changes her playstyle, you'll still be looking to initiate with ulti, while kiting back with volley and auto attacks. It does change how backloaded her damage is compared to her old kit.
It's not. If the target is slowed, Ashe does an extra 0.1 AD damage per autoattack vs a traditional ADC on average.
On April 29 2015 09:58 OhTwoMise wrote: These Ashe changes make me very sad. I've always felt she was one of the better champions in the game in terms of design. She's got a ton of legacy design features that are slowly being phased out of the game, so I supposed I shouldn't be too optimistic, particularly given Tristana just followed a pretty similar trajectory and wound up in a much less interesting place if not an outright worse one.
What's even more baffling to me is that she seems to be doing very well in terms of pick- and winrate at all levels below pro. And I can't imagine this update solves any of her problems on the pro scene, which as far as I can tell are primarily related to Crucible.
But what aspects of her kit actually got removed?
Her old passive which was completely nonexistant past lvl 1 brush cheese.
She now has the slow permanently.
Volley is a bit different but has basically the same functionality.
E vision is still there.
R is identical.
So the only "legacy feature" that she lost was the gold generation....which was 600 gold at 200cs...basically a completely worthless noob trap.
You're conflating power level and good design. They aren't necessarily related. I think the changes are probably going to wind up being a net gain or neutral for most Ashe players, the exception being those that are heavily volley-centric (which I am). But that's not what my complaint is about. They're systematically designing balance tools out of their game. The easiest and most-often talked about example is mana costs, which this re-work has in spades. They're also making Hawkshot a true one-point-wonder, which it wasn't before. This is a kind of small change since it was so close, but I'd still call it bad design.
The crit mechanic is unnecessarily complicated. I don't have a problem with complexity in general, but only if it has meaning. There are a lot of places where added complexity opens up new design space or changes balance. But it's just obfuscation here. The only reason I can see for a change like this is to reduce the variance of crit, except Riot's already stated that they're okay with that variance because players find the big numbers viscerally satisfying. So again, I'd call this bad design, although I don't think it's as bad as the mana or Volley changes because it doesn't really have an impact on the game. It's just needless and silly.
Volley is the big one, though. First, I think you're underselling the Volley nerf by a LOT. Volley is everything to Ashe. Waveclear, poke, DPS, disengage, teamfight control. And it's getting substantially worse at all of those things. The ideal scenario is the same. The problem is that the strength of Volley is the combination of its versatility and its reliability. Ideal case Volleys will be unchanged, but that's not why Volley was strong. Ideal case Volley actually looks pretty crappy compared to the ideal case for almost any other nuke. What makes Volley so strong is that you can reliably get very good value out of it.
Volley exists in basically unique design space right now. I can't think of any other long-range, reliable, low cooldown AoE damage in League. Which is probably why they're nerfing it. But Volley is pretty much the dream on a design level right now. It manages to occupy a powerful and unique niche without being overpowered. Without even being oppressive in the majority of cases. And they're looking not just to change the way Ashe functions with this change, but to remove that niche from the game entirely. And in a game like League with as many interactions as it has, removing any niche from the game entirely is removing a future balance tool.
So my grievance here isn't that I think the new Ashe will necessarily be less powerful. It's that I think they're both taking good design and making it worse and reducing the number of options and playstyles in the game in general. This isn't unique to the Ashe rework specifically, but I think it's by far the least justifiable instance. Regardless of my feelings on, say, Nidalee or Karma, I can see why Riot would feel that change was necessary, but by pretty much any meaningful metric, Ashe is in a good place right now.
I don't think I agree with a single thing in this post.
There's a lot to talk about, and I don't want to talk about it, but I would like to question why you think that Ashe's old passive was good design, and why the new passive is worse.
The new passive is sort of convoluted. I mean at the lower levels it essentially reads "ashe slows people, and does bonus damage to slowed folks".
but the calculations to determine bonus damage is hard to calculate, for example doing the math to see at what AD and what crit strike does this passive pass the DPS level vs traditional crit damage calculation is pretty convoluted.
meanwhile having a stacking passive for crit is easier to understand at a very fundamental level based on what player is already used to (200% AD if crits, 250% ad if you have ie).
that being said, I don't actually hold these views in regards to the Ashe passive being redone, but I could see why ohtwomise would think so.
edit: while i don't think it changes her playstyle, you'll still be looking to initiate with ulti, while kiting back with volley and auto attacks. It does change how backloaded her damage is compared to her old kit.
It's not. If the target is slowed, Ashe does an extra 0.1 AD damage per autoattack vs a traditional ADC on average.
And they're also giving it a lower cooldown, longer range, and more arrows for less mana.
It's a buff.
rank 1, cooldown -25% base damage -50%
rank 5, cooldown unchanged, base damage -25%
50 mana at all ranks as opposed to 60, at low levels where mana matters the most I'd say the trade is pretty even, at high ranks where the mana shouldn't matter as much it is a net nerf, albeit not a crazy one.
I suppose my point is though that they are not fundamentally changing the way the ability works.
Her W, E and R are all staying basically the same.
Her old passive is removed, which is fine because it was one of the stupidest and most terribly designed passives in the entire game.
Her gold generation mechanic is removed, which is fine because it wasn't exciting in any way, especially after they changed it to not scale with levels.
Her old Q becomes her new passive, and is basically not changed at all other than being straight buffed by not costing mana. This is also great because Frost Shot was a boring ability and makes much more sense as a passive than a toggle, IMO.
And then she gets a new Q, which is I agree a little complicated numbers wise, but no more complicated than other complicated things, and critically it's not complicated gameplay wise. When she activates it she does bonus damage for a few seconds. That's not complicated.
So her stupid mechanics get removed, her old Q becomes her new passive, she gets a new Q, and her skills all get buffed.
And they're also giving it a lower cooldown, longer range, and more arrows for less mana.
It's a buff.
rank 1, cooldown -25% base damage -50%
rank 5, cooldown unchanged, base damage -25%
50 mana at all ranks as opposed to 60, at low levels where mana matters the most I'd say the trade is pretty even, at high ranks where the mana shouldn't matter as much it is a net nerf, albeit not a crazy one.
I'm not seeing the damage changed at all in the PBE numbers.
On April 29 2015 09:58 OhTwoMise wrote: These Ashe changes make me very sad. I've always felt she was one of the better champions in the game in terms of design. She's got a ton of legacy design features that are slowly being phased out of the game, so I supposed I shouldn't be too optimistic, particularly given Tristana just followed a pretty similar trajectory and wound up in a much less interesting place if not an outright worse one.
What's even more baffling to me is that she seems to be doing very well in terms of pick- and winrate at all levels below pro. And I can't imagine this update solves any of her problems on the pro scene, which as far as I can tell are primarily related to Crucible.
But what aspects of her kit actually got removed?
Her old passive which was completely nonexistant past lvl 1 brush cheese.
She now has the slow permanently.
Volley is a bit different but has basically the same functionality.
E vision is still there.
R is identical.
So the only "legacy feature" that she lost was the gold generation....which was 600 gold at 200cs...basically a completely worthless noob trap.
You're conflating power level and good design. They aren't necessarily related. I think the changes are probably going to wind up being a net gain or neutral for most Ashe players, the exception being those that are heavily volley-centric (which I am). But that's not what my complaint is about. They're systematically designing balance tools out of their game. The easiest and most-often talked about example is mana costs, which this re-work has in spades. They're also making Hawkshot a true one-point-wonder, which it wasn't before. This is a kind of small change since it was so close, but I'd still call it bad design.
The crit mechanic is unnecessarily complicated. I don't have a problem with complexity in general, but only if it has meaning. There are a lot of places where added complexity opens up new design space or changes balance. But it's just obfuscation here. The only reason I can see for a change like this is to reduce the variance of crit, except Riot's already stated that they're okay with that variance because players find the big numbers viscerally satisfying. So again, I'd call this bad design, although I don't think it's as bad as the mana or Volley changes because it doesn't really have an impact on the game. It's just needless and silly.
Volley is the big one, though. First, I think you're underselling the Volley nerf by a LOT. Volley is everything to Ashe. Waveclear, poke, DPS, disengage, teamfight control. And it's getting substantially worse at all of those things. The ideal scenario is the same. The problem is that the strength of Volley is the combination of its versatility and its reliability. Ideal case Volleys will be unchanged, but that's not why Volley was strong. Ideal case Volley actually looks pretty crappy compared to the ideal case for almost any other nuke. What makes Volley so strong is that you can reliably get very good value out of it.
Volley exists in basically unique design space right now. I can't think of any other long-range, reliable, low cooldown AoE damage in League. Which is probably why they're nerfing it. But Volley is pretty much the dream on a design level right now. It manages to occupy a powerful and unique niche without being overpowered. Without even being oppressive in the majority of cases. And they're looking not just to change the way Ashe functions with this change, but to remove that niche from the game entirely. And in a game like League with as many interactions as it has, removing any niche from the game entirely is removing a future balance tool.
So my grievance here isn't that I think the new Ashe will necessarily be less powerful. It's that I think they're both taking good design and making it worse and reducing the number of options and playstyles in the game in general. This isn't unique to the Ashe rework specifically, but I think it's by far the least justifiable instance. Regardless of my feelings on, say, Nidalee or Karma, I can see why Riot would feel that change was necessary, but by pretty much any meaningful metric, Ashe is in a good place right now.
I don't think I agree with a single thing in this post.
There's a lot to talk about, and I don't want to talk about it, but I would like to question why you think that Ashe's old passive was good design, and why the new passive is worse.
The new passive is sort of convoluted. I mean at the lower levels it essentially reads "ashe slows people, and does bonus damage to slowed folks".
but the calculations to determine bonus damage is hard to calculate, for example doing the math to see at what AD and what crit strike does this passive pass the DPS level vs traditional crit damage calculation is pretty convoluted.
meanwhile having a stacking passive for crit is easier to understand at a very fundamental level based on what player is already used to (200% AD if crits, 250% ad if you have ie).
that being said, I don't actually hold these views in regards to the Ashe passive being redone, but I could see why ohtwomise would think so.
edit: while i don't think it changes her playstyle, you'll still be looking to initiate with ulti, while kiting back with volley and auto attacks. It does change how backloaded her damage is compared to her old kit.
It's not. If the target is slowed, Ashe does an extra 0.1 AD damage per autoattack vs a traditional ADC on average.
not if crit is involved.
If the target is slowed, Ashe does an extra 0.1 AD damage per autoattack vs a traditional ADC on average.
On April 30 2015 12:14 Ketara wrote: I suppose my point is though that they are not fundamentally changing the way the ability works.
Her W, E and R are all staying basically the same.
Her old passive is removed, which is fine because it was one of the stupidest and most terribly designed passives in the entire game.
Her gold generation mechanic is removed, which is fine because it wasn't exciting in any way, especially after they changed it to not scale with levels.
Her old Q becomes her new passive, and is basically not changed at all other than being straight buffed by not costing mana. This is also great because Frost Shot was a boring ability and makes much more sense as a passive than a toggle, IMO.
And then she gets a new Q, which is I agree a little complicated numbers wise, but no more complicated than other complicated things, and critically it's not complicated gameplay wise. When she activates it she does bonus damage for a few seconds. That's not complicated.
So her stupid mechanics get removed, her old Q becomes her new passive, she gets a new Q, and her skills all get buffed.
And they're also giving it a lower cooldown, longer range, and more arrows for less mana.
It's a buff.
rank 1, cooldown -25% base damage -50%
rank 5, cooldown unchanged, base damage -25%
50 mana at all ranks as opposed to 60, at low levels where mana matters the most I'd say the trade is pretty even, at high ranks where the mana shouldn't matter as much it is a net nerf, albeit not a crazy one.
I'm not seeing the damage changed at all in the PBE numbers.
well the original point you were responding to was an argument that there is a design paradigm issue, and not a buff/nerf issue.
You could make the argument that her new Q is kinda lame because it's another boring ADC autoattack steroid and why does every ADC have to have a boring autoattack steroid (Kogmaw Vayne Varus Tristana Sivir Jinx I'm sure I'm forgetting somebody)
But I suppose I look at it this way. Just about anything would be better than that dumb passive.
The volley change is pretty big, and indicative of Riot's vision. The skill is going from almost guaranteed damage every CD to everything within range (srsly, they go through everything), to a cone skillshot with counterplay.
Its basically the same as why they change point and clicks to skillshots. There is something to be said for keeping some point and clicks and really easy to hit skills in the game, but generally I agree that its boring and doesn't leave much room for skill.
on Miss Fortune an Essence Reaver + Black Cleaver cheap two item timing for grouping with your team once you have your level 11 ult seems decent.
she's obviously great at applying BC stacks while an early ~40% cdr puts a maxed Q at like a 2s cooldown and your ult is up for every teamfight. having only 3s of downtime in between E slows is also helpful since it's basically the only kiting tool you have.
the only other ADC i can see it not sucking on is Lucian because of how much he benefits from the CDR and his double-tap passive and the Culling probably do a good job of applying stacks.
That was changed today though, it's back to 40/50/60/70/80 now.
Gotta keep up.
@wei:
That's just it. How can it be a design paradigm issue if, of her 5 abilities, 4 of them are staying the same?
In terms of design what's changing is the old passive for the new Q.
The old passive was TERRIBLE.
The new Q is probably less than terrible.
Every other change is just numbers tweaks.
The old passive was easier to understand.
I could make a long argument about how her old passive is easier to understand on paper and harder to understand inside of a real game, and the new Q is the opposite of that, but I don't want to.
That was changed today though, it's back to 40/50/60/70/80 now.
Gotta keep up.
@wei:
That's just it. How can it be a design paradigm issue if, of her 5 abilities, 4 of them are staying the same?
In terms of design what's changing is the old passive for the new Q.
The old passive was TERRIBLE.
The new Q is probably less than terrible.
Every other change is just numbers tweaks.
The old passive was easier to understand.
I could make a long argument about how her old passive is easier to understand on paper and harder to understand inside of a real game, and the new Q is the opposite of that, but I don't want to.
Lets say I did.
I got you dawg,
if you treat the new passive as only that her auto attacks slow, it's still a buff (outside of level 1, which this theoretical moron who can't understand a tooltip wouldn't know how to take advantage of anyway) and thats really easy to understand.
That was changed today though, it's back to 40/50/60/70/80 now.
Gotta keep up.
@wei:
That's just it. How can it be a design paradigm issue if, of her 5 abilities, 4 of them are staying the same?
In terms of design what's changing is the old passive for the new Q.
The old passive was TERRIBLE.
The new Q is probably less than terrible.
Every other change is just numbers tweaks.
The old passive was easier to understand.
I could make a long argument about how her old passive is easier to understand on paper and harder to understand inside of a real game, and the new Q is the opposite of that, but I don't want to.
Lets say I did.
I got you dawg,
if you treat the new passive as only that her auto attacks slow, it's still a buff (outside of level 1, which this theoretical moron who can't understand a tooltip wouldn't know how to take advantage of anyway) and thats really easy to understand.
the problem isn't buff or nerf >.>
how hard is that to understand? the problem people seem to have with it is similar to the problem people have with yasuo passive, it's too much shit tacked on to an ability, and therefore not intuitive.
On April 30 2015 12:44 Ketara wrote: How is it not intuitive?
1 - Her attacks apply a debuff that slows
2 - She can't crit
3 - Her attacks do bonus damage to debuffed targets
That's pretty easy to understand.
In fact, it's basically Gangplanks passive + can't crit.
it's not as simple as "does not crit", it removes a key component in what all champions do based on their auto, and is replaced by another crit scaling mechanism.
I don't understand how someone who can't be bothered to read Ashe's new passive tooltip and/or is too stupid to understand it was supposedly exploiting her old passive.
On April 30 2015 12:47 Slusher wrote: I don't understand how someone who can't be bothered to read Ashe's new passive tooltip and/or is too stupid to understand it was supposedly exploiting her old passive.
Working with an an established mechanism of damage that's been in the game since the beginning, is pretty different than removing it, and replacing it with something else for a singular champion.
But, like I said earlier, I personally don't have an issue with it, but I could see why people would argue the design paradigm issue here.
On April 30 2015 12:44 Ketara wrote: How is it not intuitive?
1 - Her attacks apply a debuff that slows
2 - She can't crit
3 - Her attacks do bonus damage to debuffed targets
That's pretty easy to understand.
In fact, it's basically Gangplanks passive + can't crit.
it's not as simple as "does not crit", it removes a key component in what all champions do based on their auto, and is replaced by another crit scaling mechanism.
No, it really is that simple.
It has complicated numbers. It's okay for numbers to be complicated. The players who care about numbers will do said numbers and figure them out, and the players who don't care about numbers will wait until the players who do care figure it out and then copy them. None of that figuring will happen inside of an actual game, so it's not detracting from gameplay whatsoever and can safely be complicated.
It's also not the first champion in the game with mechanics that fuck with crit.
On April 30 2015 12:44 Ketara wrote: How is it not intuitive?
1 - Her attacks apply a debuff that slows
2 - She can't crit
3 - Her attacks do bonus damage to debuffed targets
That's pretty easy to understand.
In fact, it's basically Gangplanks passive + can't crit.
it's not as simple as "does not crit", it removes a key component in what all champions do based on their auto, and is replaced by another crit scaling mechanism.
No, it really is that simple.
It has complicated numbers. It's okay for numbers to be complicated. The players who care about numbers will do said numbers and figure them out, and the players who don't care about numbers will wait until the players who do care figure it out and then copy them. None of that figuring will happen inside of an actual game, so it's not detracting from gameplay whatsoever and can safely be complicated.
that's partially why i'm okay with it, but it does start moving in the stupid tower mechanics design we currently have.
I bet you could ask every single player in d1+ about how do towers work explicitly, and no one would get it right, because there's like 10 different things going on regarding the towers.
On April 30 2015 12:44 Ketara wrote: How is it not intuitive?
1 - Her attacks apply a debuff that slows
2 - She can't crit
3 - Her attacks do bonus damage to debuffed targets
That's pretty easy to understand.
In fact, it's basically Gangplanks passive + can't crit.
it's not as simple as "does not crit", it removes a key component in what all champions do based on their auto, and is replaced by another crit scaling mechanism.
No, it really is that simple.
It has complicated numbers. It's okay for numbers to be complicated. The players who care about numbers will do said numbers and figure them out, and the players who don't care about numbers will wait until the players who do care figure it out and then copy them. None of that figuring will happen inside of an actual game, so it's not detracting from gameplay whatsoever and can safely be complicated.
It's also not the first champion in the game with mechanics that fuck with crit.
The first one was probably pre rework Ashe (ha!)
This right here is one of my pet peeves with the League community. I used to see thread after thread on reddit about people wanting adaptive tooltips. Shit like clear #s for Mundos passive and ult, which they just put in. Like, when is that information really relevant in an in game scenario? When does knowing if 60% of your health behind 2220 or 2225 have any applicable use in game?
On April 30 2015 12:44 Ketara wrote: How is it not intuitive?
1 - Her attacks apply a debuff that slows
2 - She can't crit
3 - Her attacks do bonus damage to debuffed targets
That's pretty easy to understand.
In fact, it's basically Gangplanks passive + can't crit.
it's not as simple as "does not crit", it removes a key component in what all champions do based on their auto, and is replaced by another crit scaling mechanism.
No, it really is that simple.
It has complicated numbers. It's okay for numbers to be complicated. The players who care about numbers will do said numbers and figure them out, and the players who don't care about numbers will wait until the players who do care figure it out and then copy them. None of that figuring will happen inside of an actual game, so it's not detracting from gameplay whatsoever and can safely be complicated.
that's partially why i'm okay with it, but it does start moving in the stupid tower mechanics design we currently have.
I bet you could ask every single player in d1+ about how do towers work explicitly, and no one would get it right, because there's like 10 different things going on regarding the towers.
People are also really bad at grasping the game in general. There is blatant info in front of their faces with towers' items literally giving you most, if not all, of their nuance but I wouldn't be surprised if most people don't know towers even have these "items."
On April 30 2015 12:36 chalice wrote: on Miss Fortune an Essence Reaver + Black Cleaver cheap two item timing for grouping with your team once you have your level 11 ult seems decent.
she's obviously great at applying BC stacks while an early ~40% cdr puts a maxed Q at like a 2s cooldown and your ult is up for every teamfight. having only 3s of downtime in between E slows is also helpful since it's basically the only kiting tool you have.
the only other ADC i can see it not sucking on is Lucian because of how much he benefits from the CDR and his double-tap passive and the Culling probably do a good job of applying stacks.
lol, why would you buy essence reaver on MF? That two item timing would deal basically no damage compared to a normal build , so I hope you have some serious AD mid and top or that armor shred is worthless.
Plus a two item timing for percent armor shred is pretty weak, there wont be enough armor for it to make much of a difference. Lategame you just totally gimped yourself because you have no multiplicative scaling and turned your ADC into some kind of awful bruiser.
On April 30 2015 12:36 chalice wrote: on Miss Fortune an Essence Reaver + Black Cleaver cheap two item timing for grouping with your team once you have your level 11 ult seems decent.
she's obviously great at applying BC stacks while an early ~40% cdr puts a maxed Q at like a 2s cooldown and your ult is up for every teamfight. having only 3s of downtime in between E slows is also helpful since it's basically the only kiting tool you have.
the only other ADC i can see it not sucking on is Lucian because of how much he benefits from the CDR and his double-tap passive and the Culling probably do a good job of applying stacks.
lol, why would you buy essence reaver on MF? That two item timing would deal basically no damage compared to a normal build , so I hope you have some serious AD mid and top or that armor shred is worthless.
Plus a two item timing for percent armor shred is pretty weak, there wont be enough armor for it to make much of a difference. Lategame you just totally gimped yourself because you have no multiplicative scaling and turned your ADC into some kind of awful bruiser.
and cheap? 3200g and 3000gold is cheap?
i got the idea for rushing Essence Reaver from some guy who is diamond on the Korean server and only plays Miss Fortune (www.op.gg) and it felt pretty nice when i tried it. she can definitely use the mana regen and it's the least expensive 80ad item.
i guess technically 6200g isn't particularly cheap, but with the 10% lifesteal, mana regen, 30% CDR, phage passive, and 400hp; i think you get a lot of cost-efficient midgame utility to go with 120ad and the armor shred to bring some punch to your ultimates. obviously buying a Black Cleaver when there aren't any other significant AD damage sources on your team isn't a good idea.
i'm not sure why you think filling two item slots with AD, sustain, and percent armor reduction precludes you from itemizing for crit later on.
I think it's pretty obvious that Riot's moving in a direction to remove crit. Along with Ashe's passive you have Kalista's rend mechanic and build path usually avoiding crit. Then you have Tristana who's a complete disaster of a champ but follows a rather similar "auto a target with E more to build up more damage" mechanic.
On April 30 2015 15:39 Sonnington wrote: I think it's pretty obvious that Riot's moving in a direction to remove crit. Along with Ashe's passive you have Kalista's rend mechanic and build path usually avoiding crit. Then you have Tristana who's a complete disaster of a champ but follows a rather similar "auto a target with E more to build up more damage" mechanic.
The hell is that Tristana circlejerk. Clearly, you preferred previous Tristana, where whole gameplay was 'survive fourty minutes without losing too much and auto-win'. But no, once she finally requires some skill and brains to play, she's 'disaster of a champ'.
On April 30 2015 15:39 Sonnington wrote: I think it's pretty obvious that Riot's moving in a direction to remove crit. Along with Ashe's passive you have Kalista's rend mechanic and build path usually avoiding crit. Then you have Tristana who's a complete disaster of a champ but follows a rather similar "auto a target with E more to build up more damage" mechanic.
The hell is that Tristana circlejerk. Clearly, you preferred previous Tristana, where whole gameplay was 'survive fourty minutes without losing too much and auto-win'. But no, once she finally requires some skill and brains to play, she's 'disaster of a champ'.
What? She's no harder to play than before, just with a more standardized power curve.
On April 30 2015 15:39 Sonnington wrote: I think it's pretty obvious that Riot's moving in a direction to remove crit. Along with Ashe's passive you have Kalista's rend mechanic and build path usually avoiding crit. Then you have Tristana who's a complete disaster of a champ but follows a rather similar "auto a target with E more to build up more damage" mechanic.
The hell is that Tristana circlejerk. Clearly, you preferred previous Tristana, where whole gameplay was 'survive fourty minutes without losing too much and auto-win'. But no, once she finally requires some skill and brains to play, she's 'disaster of a champ'.
What? She's no harder to play than before, just with a more standardized power curve.
She actually requires hitting people in first ten minutes now and not watching them die.
Did poro toss do true damage? Because dash/mark feels kind of dumb to me, but I never played when they had poro toss was around so I don't know how it compares.
On April 30 2015 16:10 zer0das wrote: Did poro toss do true damage? Because dash/mark feels kind of dumb to me, but I never played when they had poro toss was around so I don't know how it compares.
On April 30 2015 15:39 Sonnington wrote: I think it's pretty obvious that Riot's moving in a direction to remove crit. Along with Ashe's passive you have Kalista's rend mechanic and build path usually avoiding crit. Then you have Tristana who's a complete disaster of a champ but follows a rather similar "auto a target with E more to build up more damage" mechanic.
The hell is that Tristana circlejerk. Clearly, you preferred previous Tristana, where whole gameplay was 'survive fourty minutes without losing too much and auto-win'. But no, once she finally requires some skill and brains to play, she's 'disaster of a champ'.
What? She's no harder to play than before, just with a more standardized power curve.
She actually requires hitting people in first ten minutes now and not watching them die.
I wouldn't really call 200 true damage on a 20 second cooldown at level 18 insignificant. Compared to dashing 2 screens maybe...
Ryze feels awful now. If anyone is in your face you can't hit priority targets with q. The shield on his passive feels really out of place, it is almost never up when it would matter. His cooldowns are incredibly long without the old passive and the supercharging feels forced. E's damage on bounces is miniscule (this one is big- a fully farmed Ryze could do so much AOE damage with his E, now its just meh).
Also all of his animations feel like garbage. Probably one of the worst reworks I've played. His old kit had a clear design, the new one is all over the damn place. They're probably going to reduce the number of stacks required to supercharge him, because its way too difficult to make much use of it as is.
On April 30 2015 13:42 Ketara wrote: Honestly, if anything the way this new Ashe crit works is more or less the way crit should work for everyone.
I'd be happy to dip into some koolaid theory that this is Riot trying to test something that they may later do for everyone.
It's like people don't read posts. 3rd time in the thread, some red posted one or two weeks ago about how they don't want to remove crits because despite the RNG effect they like the visceral feeling of these big numbers with different animations and font, etc. and they like the idea of fishing for crits in lane or during poke to try and capitalise on, along with the you-never-know chance that the enemy with Zerks, IE and Zeal doesn't crit once while you, behind, crit thrice in a row with only IE and win the fight, letting you catch up a bit.
On April 30 2015 15:39 Sonnington wrote: I think it's pretty obvious that Riot's moving in a direction to remove crit. Along with Ashe's passive you have Kalista's rend mechanic and build path usually avoiding crit. Then you have Tristana who's a complete disaster of a champ but follows a rather similar "auto a target with E more to build up more damage" mechanic.
The hell is that Tristana circlejerk. Clearly, you preferred previous Tristana, where whole gameplay was 'survive fourty minutes without losing too much and auto-win'. But no, once she finally requires some skill and brains to play, she's 'disaster of a champ'.
She's super clunky, the casting animation on E also means you have to get closer than you'd want to, to cast it and start autoing instead of running after the guy if he's moving away from you. I already wasn't too much a fan of old Trist because of her lack of reach till later levels, but now it feels like unless the enemy team wants to initiate on mine and we have a frontline they can't pass I can't really use my E.
On April 30 2015 15:39 Sonnington wrote: I think it's pretty obvious that Riot's moving in a direction to remove crit. Along with Ashe's passive you have Kalista's rend mechanic and build path usually avoiding crit. Then you have Tristana who's a complete disaster of a champ but follows a rather similar "auto a target with E more to build up more damage" mechanic.
The hell is that Tristana circlejerk. Clearly, you preferred previous Tristana, where whole gameplay was 'survive fourty minutes without losing too much and auto-win'. But no, once she finally requires some skill and brains to play, she's 'disaster of a champ'.
What? She's no harder to play than before, just with a more standardized power curve.
She actually requires hitting people in first ten minutes now and not watching them die.
Sure, the level 2 and 6 power spikes didn't exist for old Trist. She wasn't one of the most dangerous champions for an early all-in (but Alistar isn't too popular now). She can still hit people now, and she's actually stronger in her good cases if she actually commits to an all-in with E and W. Thing is she has to all-in to trade now, pretty much not doing anything otherwise.
On April 30 2015 13:42 Ketara wrote: Honestly, if anything the way this new Ashe crit works is more or less the way crit should work for everyone.
I'd be happy to dip into some koolaid theory that this is Riot trying to test something that they may later do for everyone.
It's like people don't read posts. 3rd time in the thread, some red posted one or two weeks ago about how they don't want to remove crits because despite the RNG effect they like the visceral feeling of these big numbers with different animations and font, etc. and they like the idea of fishing for crits in lane or during poke to try and capitalise on, along with the you-never-know chance that the enemy with Zerks, IE and Zeal doesn't crit once while you, behind, crit thrice in a row with only IE and win the fight, letting you catch up a bit.
Damn they are even stupider than I thought.You know what is fun in a competetive game?Completely random factors that you can't control .Next time when zed crits me 2 times with his ghostblade after I qss his ult I should be happy and not annoyed.
Never liked trist a very stupid champion and now she just feels meh compared to any of the good ads.
On April 30 2015 15:39 Sonnington wrote: I think it's pretty obvious that Riot's moving in a direction to remove crit. Along with Ashe's passive you have Kalista's rend mechanic and build path usually avoiding crit. Then you have Tristana who's a complete disaster of a champ but follows a rather similar "auto a target with E more to build up more damage" mechanic.
The hell is that Tristana circlejerk. Clearly, you preferred previous Tristana, where whole gameplay was 'survive fourty minutes without losing too much and auto-win'. But no, once she finally requires some skill and brains to play, she's 'disaster of a champ'.
Tristana has problems. I find her very clunky to use since she has much lower AS. Because of this it's harder to CS and kite properly. In that clunktactular cast time of her E, most enemy ADCs can just throw burst at her and walk away without letting her stack against them with her autos. Her E does low base damage and actually low stack damage unless she has bonus AD which means it's easy for her to lose trades. So she's basically shit early, mediocre/good mid, and mediocre/shit late.
In any event, her E mechanic is similar to Rend and Ashe's new passive. Focus AA an enemy to stack much more damages.
On April 30 2015 13:42 Ketara wrote: Honestly, if anything the way this new Ashe crit works is more or less the way crit should work for everyone.
I'd be happy to dip into some koolaid theory that this is Riot trying to test something that they may later do for everyone.
It's like people don't read posts. 3rd time in the thread, some red posted one or two weeks ago about how they don't want to remove crits because despite the RNG effect they like the visceral feeling of these big numbers with different animations and font, etc. and they like the idea of fishing for crits in lane or during poke to try and capitalise on, along with the you-never-know chance that the enemy with Zerks, IE and Zeal doesn't crit once while you, behind, crit thrice in a row with only IE and win the fight, letting you catch up a bit.
Damn they are even stupider than I thought.You know what is fun in a competetive game?Completely random factors that you can't control .Next time when zed crits me 2 times with his ghostblade after I qss his ult I should be happy and not annoyed.
Never liked trist a very stupid champion and now she just feels meh compared to any of the good ads.
Misplay vs zed match up. better blame the 15% crit.
On April 30 2015 13:42 Ketara wrote: Honestly, if anything the way this new Ashe crit works is more or less the way crit should work for everyone.
I'd be happy to dip into some koolaid theory that this is Riot trying to test something that they may later do for everyone.
It's like people don't read posts. 3rd time in the thread, some red posted one or two weeks ago about how they don't want to remove crits because despite the RNG effect they like the visceral feeling of these big numbers with different animations and font, etc. and they like the idea of fishing for crits in lane or during poke to try and capitalise on, along with the you-never-know chance that the enemy with Zerks, IE and Zeal doesn't crit once while you, behind, crit thrice in a row with only IE and win the fight, letting you catch up a bit.
Damn they are even stupider than I thought.You know what is fun in a competetive game?Completely random factors that you can't control .Next time when zed crits me 2 times with his ghostblade after I qss his ult I should be happy and not annoyed.
Never liked trist a very stupid champion and now she just feels meh compared to any of the good ads.
Misplay vs zed match up. better blame the 15% crit.
On April 30 2015 13:42 Ketara wrote: Honestly, if anything the way this new Ashe crit works is more or less the way crit should work for everyone.
I'd be happy to dip into some koolaid theory that this is Riot trying to test something that they may later do for everyone.
It's like people don't read posts. 3rd time in the thread, some red posted one or two weeks ago about how they don't want to remove crits because despite the RNG effect they like the visceral feeling of these big numbers with different animations and font, etc. and they like the idea of fishing for crits in lane or during poke to try and capitalise on, along with the you-never-know chance that the enemy with Zerks, IE and Zeal doesn't crit once while you, behind, crit thrice in a row with only IE and win the fight, letting you catch up a bit.
Damn they are even stupider than I thought.You know what is fun in a competetive game?Completely random factors that you can't control .Next time when zed crits me 2 times with his ghostblade after I qss his ult I should be happy and not annoyed.
Never liked trist a very stupid champion and now she just feels meh compared to any of the good ads.
It's almost like the competitive side of the game is just advertisement for the commercial side of it.. oh, wait.
On April 30 2015 13:42 Ketara wrote: Honestly, if anything the way this new Ashe crit works is more or less the way crit should work for everyone.
I'd be happy to dip into some koolaid theory that this is Riot trying to test something that they may later do for everyone.
It's like people don't read posts. 3rd time in the thread, some red posted one or two weeks ago about how they don't want to remove crits because despite the RNG effect they like the visceral feeling of these big numbers with different animations and font, etc. and they like the idea of fishing for crits in lane or during poke to try and capitalise on, along with the you-never-know chance that the enemy with Zerks, IE and Zeal doesn't crit once while you, behind, crit thrice in a row with only IE and win the fight, letting you catch up a bit.
Damn they are even stupider than I thought.You know what is fun in a competetive game?Completely random factors that you can't control .Next time when zed crits me 2 times with his ghostblade after I qss his ult I should be happy and not annoyed.
Never liked trist a very stupid champion and now she just feels meh compared to any of the good ads.
It's almost like the competitive side of the game is just advertisement for the commercial side of it.. oh, wait.
If there was a large demand for crit to be in the game I would buy that but I have never seen even a single person who likes this aspect.
If I am wrong and most people actually want crit in the game I would be able to see why riot aren't removing it.
On April 30 2015 13:42 Ketara wrote: Honestly, if anything the way this new Ashe crit works is more or less the way crit should work for everyone.
I'd be happy to dip into some koolaid theory that this is Riot trying to test something that they may later do for everyone.
It's like people don't read posts. 3rd time in the thread, some red posted one or two weeks ago about how they don't want to remove crits because despite the RNG effect they like the visceral feeling of these big numbers with different animations and font, etc. and they like the idea of fishing for crits in lane or during poke to try and capitalise on, along with the you-never-know chance that the enemy with Zerks, IE and Zeal doesn't crit once while you, behind, crit thrice in a row with only IE and win the fight, letting you catch up a bit.
Damn they are even stupider than I thought.You know what is fun in a competetive game?Completely random factors that you can't control .Next time when zed crits me 2 times with his ghostblade after I qss his ult I should be happy and not annoyed.
Never liked trist a very stupid champion and now she just feels meh compared to any of the good ads.
It's almost like the competitive side of the game is just advertisement for the commercial side of it.. oh, wait.
If there was a large demand for crit to be in the game I would buy that but I have never seen even a single person who likes this aspect.
If I am wrong and most people actually want crit in the game I would be able to see why riot aren't removing it.
Except people that complain about crit are a vocal minority. People that want it removed will voice their opinion loudly because they're upset. People that want it in the game or don't care one way or another don't because a) there isn't anything to change or b) expressing that opinion in most formats causes people to garner harassment in one form or another.
On April 30 2015 13:42 Ketara wrote: Honestly, if anything the way this new Ashe crit works is more or less the way crit should work for everyone.
I'd be happy to dip into some koolaid theory that this is Riot trying to test something that they may later do for everyone.
It's like people don't read posts. 3rd time in the thread, some red posted one or two weeks ago about how they don't want to remove crits because despite the RNG effect they like the visceral feeling of these big numbers with different animations and font, etc. and they like the idea of fishing for crits in lane or during poke to try and capitalise on, along with the you-never-know chance that the enemy with Zerks, IE and Zeal doesn't crit once while you, behind, crit thrice in a row with only IE and win the fight, letting you catch up a bit.
Damn they are even stupider than I thought.You know what is fun in a competetive game?Completely random factors that you can't control .Next time when zed crits me 2 times with his ghostblade after I qss his ult I should be happy and not annoyed.
Never liked trist a very stupid champion and now she just feels meh compared to any of the good ads.
It's almost like the competitive side of the game is just advertisement for the commercial side of it.. oh, wait.
If there was a large demand for crit to be in the game I would buy that but I have never seen even a single person who likes this aspect.
If I am wrong and most people actually want crit in the game I would be able to see why riot aren't removing it.
I like crits. I already liked crits in wc3. The simple chance to have a clutch crit decide a situation creates excitement in my opinion. When thinking of crit I see a team that is behind making a ridiculous comeback by getting a lucky crit. Sure, you can argue that in this case the team did not win by skill at all which is obviously correct. But I see league foremost as entertainment and crits surely can be entertaining.
It is similar with some traditional outdoor sports in which circumstances beyond the athletes control can influence the competition (weather conditions for example). You have factors that make the competition more volatile, which makes for higher chances of upsets. Thereby it can give rise to additional storylines. And if you are a fan of a generally weaker team/athlete it may also give you something to hope for.
I agree with all the points Prog said. Also, crit isn't true RNG the way Riot codes it. Also, if you want to whine about crit, do it when it's only at the IE powerspike. As soon as you get Shiv or PD it's useless to get upset about the RNG factor since it's too damn high. Sure you could say that critting with your first shiv proc on an ap or ad will render him useless in a fight, but adc vs adc tends to be only like 5 aa's anyway, decided by who gets the first hit off (granted, in this example all skills are on cd so you can only aa)
Had a game yesterday when I barely managed to escape from a Kassadin and kill him after te team got him fed, there comes Vayne with a Tumble-aa as I run away right before our Naut roots her... 15% crit, the auto kills me. Yeah these cases suck, they're rare though. I'm much more annoyed at the critlords who get a triplet in a row with only ghostblade, that's a RNG-gifted teamfight there.
people don't GIVE assassins crit its more like they remade ghostblade to make it better for ranged when it was normally intended by chasing/autoing melees like yi or something but because ti gives a flat duration of movement people use it on rengar and zed and stuff to just close the gap like ghost can just take crit off ghostblade it never needed to be there anyway
On April 30 2015 22:33 Uldridge wrote: I agree with all the points Prog said. Also, crit isn't true RNG the way Riot codes it. Also, if you want to whine about crit, do it when it's only at the IE powerspike. As soon as you get Shiv or PD it's useless to get upset about the RNG factor since it's too damn high. Sure you could say that critting with your first shiv proc on an ap or ad will render him useless in a fight, but adc vs adc tends to be only like 5 aa's anyway, decided by who gets the first hit off (granted, in this example all skills are on cd so you can only aa)
I dunno it probably has a lot to do with my selective memory(since if I get lucky it just feels undeserved so I ignore it) and when you get 1 crit out of 5 autos as caitlyn after dodging 4 corki skillshots and he just get 2 crits out of 4 autos with tri/bt and you lose it really sticks out.Or when you flash and sidestep rengar's shit and he just flash>auto crits you it is really frustating.Personally for me when someone wins with a factor from the outside like a lucky crit streak it just feels cheap and just adds shallow upset.Don't really understand what is exciting about that but if I am in the minority can't really do anything about it.I know every single pro ad has been whining about crit ever since ie first became standart again but riot clearly don't think it is an issue.
Also in general especially with zed very often he just 2 out of 2 auto crits and just kills someone and very often fans/commentators completely ignore that he just got lucky and praise him like it had anything to do with him which is really fucking stupid(hai vs tsm last split in the finals for example).
I remember an article I read a while ago that attempted to analyze why football (soccer for you Americans) was the most popular sport in the world. The best thing they could come up with was that in football, out of all the sports that are played at a professional level (and that they analysed obviously) the team that is better on paper is least likely to win. So football is popular because it's more random.
How is that relevant here? Dunno, but randomness isn't always a bad thing.
On May 01 2015 00:10 Kaethis wrote: On the Crit discussion:
I remember an article I read a while ago that attempted to analyze why football (soccer for you Americans) was the most popular sport in the world. The best thing they could come up with was that in football, out of all the sports that are played at a professional level (and that they analysed obviously) the team that is better on paper is least likely to win. So football is popular because it's more random.
How is that relevant here? Dunno, but randomness isn't always a bad thing.
wtf the team that is better on paper usually wins wtf
the reason its popular is because all you need to play or practice is a football while in games like american football rugby cricket baseball etc its a very rigid rule structure while a group of 7 kids from school in the backarse of nowhere can find any field and put down some sweaters for goalposts and go at it and one might become the next great player
you can p much have any number to practice/play football and only need a football for equipment
similar to why basketball is popular around black communities since they live in mostly urban areas they don't have access to fields but if theres a court and a basketball you can play 1 can practice 2 can 1 on 1 4 can 2vs2 etc
for example paul scholes' dad used to get into arguments with the neighbour because little scholes was just booting a football against a wall all day every day and then you see him playing for manchester united every fucking goal he has is from the middle just outside the box whenever the ball randomly gets knocked in his direcetion he just runs in and boots it straight in LOL
On May 01 2015 00:10 Kaethis wrote: On the Crit discussion:
I remember an article I read a while ago that attempted to analyze why football (soccer for you Americans) was the most popular sport in the world. The best thing they could come up with was that in football, out of all the sports that are played at a professional level (and that they analysed obviously) the team that is better on paper is least likely to win. So football is popular because it's more random.
How is that relevant here? Dunno, but randomness isn't always a bad thing.
wtf the team that is better on paper usually wins wtf
What he meant by "least likely to win" is pretty simple: A better soccer/baseball/basketball/whatever team is more likely to beat their opponent than a better football team is to beat theirs. The football team is still more likely to win than lose, they're just less likely to win when compared to analogous situations in any other sport.
Yeah ofcourse, the fact that it is so simple to set up was another large factor, but that is very hard to actually quantify. On the other hand, the amount of research and numbers available to determine a team's strength (and so who should win in a head-to-head) in football is enormous and the paper did make reasonable that football is very random in comparison to other sports. Something like a 'best of the world' list makes sense in tennis but not really in football because of it, tennis being one of the outliers of a sport that's both relatively popular and predictable.
edit: 'Least likely to win' means when comparing a statistically stronger team going into a football match to another statistically stronger team (or player) in ANY other sport, the football team is most likely to lose. The correlation between skill and winning is just not as strong in football as it is in other things.
On May 01 2015 00:35 Nos- wrote: I want more soccer analysis by teut
messi - runs around like a little pixie-faerie-demon-god of soccer, will only score if he gets to run 50 metres and beat 4 defenders anything else is too boring ronaldo - solo split pushes and does something fancy then boots towards the goal and hopes for the best if he gets ganked he falls down instantly complains to his ref for not having enough map pressure klose (german striker) - manager pages him from his deck chair next to the goal so he gets up and tips it in to the goal or just altering the trajectory like a snooker player tim howard secretary of defense belgium's lukaka+kevin de brune the legendary oppression combo of black man +ginger they seriously had good teamwork in the WC ...i really don't know that much about soccer
On April 30 2015 18:48 nafta wrote: Was just interested to see how was he trying to troll me.
The fact that you were in a position to get hit by Zed meant you misplayed it, regardless of having QSS.
it's like doublelift bitching about gettign 2v1'd when he's pushed past river splitpushing without wards.
Wei, that was awful try to bait people :D
it's not trolling. jesus christ, it's a fucking zed. Just playing against that matchup you're required to spend 1.2k gold on a fucking MR item against zed, just for an active. Chances are, he's still gunna fucking kill you regardless of his ult or not, due to the fact he's 1.2k gold on top of you in stats. If you got rekt by zed, you were either a) too far behind, crit doesn't matter, or b) you mispositioned and let zed get 2 autos off.
On April 30 2015 18:48 nafta wrote: Was just interested to see how was he trying to troll me.
The fact that you were in a position to get hit by Zed meant you misplayed it, regardless of having QSS.
it's like doublelift bitching about gettign 2v1'd when he's pushed past river splitpushing without wards.
Wei, that was awful try to bait people :D
it's not trolling. jesus christ, it's a fucking zed. Just playing against that matchup you're required to spend 1.2k gold on a fucking MR item against zed, just for an active. Chances are, he's still gunna fucking kill you regardless of his ult or not, due to the fact he's 1.2k gold on top of you in stats. If you got rekt by zed, you were either a) too far behind, crit doesn't matter, or b) you mispositioned and let zed get 2 autos off.
Okay, so. Situation 1, Zed flashes to you without using shadow - he ults, you qss - he shadows to you, you flash, he shadows back, you're useless already, Zed wins because your team fights without adc.
Situation 2, Zed uses shadow to reach you - he ults, you qss - he flashes to you, you flash, same story
Situation 3, Zed doesn't have flash but you have - he ults, you qss - he shadows, you flash, he goes back, same as situation 1
Situation 4, Zed doesn't have both flash and shadow - he ults, you qss - you punch him, because he can't reach you probably, because ghostblade was already used to ult you in first place
So, in 75% of situations, when you have both summoners up, Zed basically forces you out of fight anyway despite not getting those 2 shots and you having qss, it's random numbers ofc, just for sake of Zed vs adc matchup.
On April 30 2015 18:48 nafta wrote: Was just interested to see how was he trying to troll me.
The fact that you were in a position to get hit by Zed meant you misplayed it, regardless of having QSS.
it's like doublelift bitching about gettign 2v1'd when he's pushed past river splitpushing without wards.
Wei, that was awful try to bait people :D
it's not trolling. jesus christ, it's a fucking zed. Just playing against that matchup you're required to spend 1.2k gold on a fucking MR item against zed, just for an active. Chances are, he's still gunna fucking kill you regardless of his ult or not, due to the fact he's 1.2k gold on top of you in stats. If you got rekt by zed, you were either a) too far behind, crit doesn't matter, or b) you mispositioned and let zed get 2 autos off.
Okay, so. Situation 1, Zed flashes to you without using shadow - he ults, you qss - he shadows to you, you flash, he shadows back, you're useless already, Zed wins because your team fights without adc.
Situation 2, Zed uses shadow to reach you - he ults, you qss - he flashes to you, you flash, same story
Situation 3, Zed doesn't have flash but you have - he ults, you qss - he shadows, you flash, he goes back, same as situation 1
Situation 4, Zed doesn't have both flash and shadow - he ults, you qss - you punch him, because he can't reach you probably, because ghostblade was already used to ult you in first place
So, in 75% of situations, when you have both summoners up, Zed basically forces you out of fight anyway despite not getting those 2 shots and you having qss, it's random numbers ofc, just for sake of Zed vs adc matchup.
Situation 5: Your team is around the ADC and as soon as Zed ults he gets blown up, and the ADC wouldn't die unless Zed gets 2 crits in a row.
Also I don't see how your ADC is out of the fight in all of those situations, because the ADC won't be below half HP and he can just run back to the fight (1-2 seconds) after Zed shadows back as well. Plus Zed is even more useless than the ADC.
Edit: There are also non-teamfight situations to consider, for example a 1v1 where those 2 crits decide who wins and who loses.
On April 30 2015 18:48 nafta wrote: Was just interested to see how was he trying to troll me.
The fact that you were in a position to get hit by Zed meant you misplayed it, regardless of having QSS.
it's like doublelift bitching about gettign 2v1'd when he's pushed past river splitpushing without wards.
Wei, that was awful try to bait people :D
it's not trolling. jesus christ, it's a fucking zed. Just playing against that matchup you're required to spend 1.2k gold on a fucking MR item against zed, just for an active. Chances are, he's still gunna fucking kill you regardless of his ult or not, due to the fact he's 1.2k gold on top of you in stats. If you got rekt by zed, you were either a) too far behind, crit doesn't matter, or b) you mispositioned and let zed get 2 autos off.
Okay, so. Situation 1, Zed flashes to you without using shadow - he ults, you qss - he shadows to you, you flash, he shadows back, you're useless already, Zed wins because your team fights without adc.
Situation 2, Zed uses shadow to reach you - he ults, you qss - he flashes to you, you flash, same story
Situation 3, Zed doesn't have flash but you have - he ults, you qss - he shadows, you flash, he goes back, same as situation 1
Situation 4, Zed doesn't have both flash and shadow - he ults, you qss - you punch him, because he can't reach you probably, because ghostblade was already used to ult you in first place
So, in 75% of situations, when you have both summoners up, Zed basically forces you out of fight anyway despite not getting those 2 shots and you having qss, it's random numbers ofc, just for sake of Zed vs adc matchup.
and that's why i said the crit from zed from ghostblade is pretty inconsequential to how the game plays out, also if you're getting auto'd twice by zed, you were horribly mispositioned in the first place.
On May 01 2015 02:28 Ketara wrote: Sounds like wei has PTSD from Zed matchups.
lol no, i just play super far back against zed matchups, and if i get blown up i don't go around bitching about 15% crit is the reason why I died to a zed.
it's like people bitching about veigar's instastun from his E before his rework. GUESS WHAT THE COUNTERPLAY IS? DON'T BE IN RANGE.
On April 30 2015 18:48 nafta wrote: Was just interested to see how was he trying to troll me.
The fact that you were in a position to get hit by Zed meant you misplayed it, regardless of having QSS.
it's like doublelift bitching about gettign 2v1'd when he's pushed past river splitpushing without wards.
Wei, that was awful try to bait people :D
it's not trolling. jesus christ, it's a fucking zed. Just playing against that matchup you're required to spend 1.2k gold on a fucking MR item against zed, just for an active. Chances are, he's still gunna fucking kill you regardless of his ult or not, due to the fact he's 1.2k gold on top of you in stats. If you got rekt by zed, you were either a) too far behind, crit doesn't matter, or b) you mispositioned and let zed get 2 autos off.
Okay, so. Situation 1, Zed flashes to you without using shadow - he ults, you qss - he shadows to you, you flash, he shadows back, you're useless already, Zed wins because your team fights without adc.
Situation 2, Zed uses shadow to reach you - he ults, you qss - he flashes to you, you flash, same story
Situation 3, Zed doesn't have flash but you have - he ults, you qss - he shadows, you flash, he goes back, same as situation 1
Situation 4, Zed doesn't have both flash and shadow - he ults, you qss - you punch him, because he can't reach you probably, because ghostblade was already used to ult you in first place
So, in 75% of situations, when you have both summoners up, Zed basically forces you out of fight anyway despite not getting those 2 shots and you having qss, it's random numbers ofc, just for sake of Zed vs adc matchup.
Situation 5: Your team is around the ADC and as soon as Zed ults he gets blown up, and the ADC wouldn't die unless Zed gets 2 crits in a row.
On April 30 2015 18:48 nafta wrote: Was just interested to see how was he trying to troll me.
The fact that you were in a position to get hit by Zed meant you misplayed it, regardless of having QSS.
it's like doublelift bitching about gettign 2v1'd when he's pushed past river splitpushing without wards.
Wei, that was awful try to bait people :D
it's not trolling. jesus christ, it's a fucking zed. Just playing against that matchup you're required to spend 1.2k gold on a fucking MR item against zed, just for an active. Chances are, he's still gunna fucking kill you regardless of his ult or not, due to the fact he's 1.2k gold on top of you in stats. If you got rekt by zed, you were either a) too far behind, crit doesn't matter, or b) you mispositioned and let zed get 2 autos off.
Okay, so. Situation 1, Zed flashes to you without using shadow - he ults, you qss - he shadows to you, you flash, he shadows back, you're useless already, Zed wins because your team fights without adc.
Situation 2, Zed uses shadow to reach you - he ults, you qss - he flashes to you, you flash, same story
Situation 3, Zed doesn't have flash but you have - he ults, you qss - he shadows, you flash, he goes back, same as situation 1
Situation 4, Zed doesn't have both flash and shadow - he ults, you qss - you punch him, because he can't reach you probably, because ghostblade was already used to ult you in first place
So, in 75% of situations, when you have both summoners up, Zed basically forces you out of fight anyway despite not getting those 2 shots and you having qss, it's random numbers ofc, just for sake of Zed vs adc matchup.
and that's why i said the crit from zed from ghostblade is pretty inconsequential to how the game plays out, also if you're getting auto'd twice by zed, you were horribly mispositioned in the first place.
On May 01 2015 02:28 Ketara wrote: Sounds like wei has PTSD from Zed matchups.
lol no, i just play super far back against zed matchups, and if i get blown up i don't go around bitching about 15% crit is the reason why I died to a zed.
it's like people bitching about veigar's instastun from his E before his rework. GUESS WHAT THE COUNTERPLAY IS? DON'T BE IN RANGE.
Veigar had over 1k range with pre-rework Flash-W. Clearly the counterplay it to have everyone on your team be Xerath. Wonderful, for all your "bait" talk you're the one who replied in the end.
fact is in the normal zed matchup when you have qss and he goes on you he'll get a few autos off before he's cc'd and insta killed getting crit twice in a row is insanely unlucky like 2% unlucky
if you dont have qss those 2 autos w and q combined with R and botrk is enough to tp back just before he dies
On May 01 2015 02:57 Alaric wrote: Veigar had over 1k range with pre-rework Flash-W. Clearly the counterplay it to have everyone on your team be Xerath. Wonderful, for all your "bait" talk you're the one who replied in the end.
but I guess it needed to be posted :D holy macaroni so much money in the chinese LoL scene...
Snake is owned by the son of the CEO of China Rare Earth Holdings ($3b market cap rare earth company, super big deal that is belied by the relatively modest market cap) OMG is owned by the son of the CEO of ChuYing ($15b market cap Chinese food/agriculture company). He supposedly also owns Royal and part of WE.A (now M3). iG is more well-known, owned by the son of Dalian Wanda (private company, CEO is worth ~$30b)
On May 01 2015 00:10 Kaethis wrote: On the Crit discussion:
I remember an article I read a while ago that attempted to analyze why football (soccer for you Americans) was the most popular sport in the world. The best thing they could come up with was that in football, out of all the sports that are played at a professional level (and that they analysed obviously) the team that is better on paper is least likely to win. So football is popular because it's more random.
How is that relevant here? Dunno, but randomness isn't always a bad thing.
wtf the team that is better on paper usually wins wtf
What he meant by "least likely to win" is pretty simple: A better soccer/baseball/basketball/whatever team is more likely to beat their opponent than a better football team is to beat theirs. The football team is still more likely to win than lose, they're just less likely to win when compared to analogous situations in any other sport.
Lol. This reminds me so much of the trash talking line of comments where people obviously know nothing about real sports. Baseball is the most random of any of those sports, by a significant margin. Next would be hockey, then basketball, then American Football, then Football (soccer). That's for individual games, obviously some sports have playoff series so in the end the series winner is more likely to be the best, but obviously we understand BO formats.
The reason that the better team in football is least likely to win isn't because football is random. It's because football is communist. IE very aggressive revenue sharing and salary caps keep even the worst teams relatively competitive.
Baseball is the most random on a per game basis by far. Just plain fewer high variance attempts to score. Professional Basketball is the least both because large number of shots but also because they play long series for their playoffs
League is not very random and it won't be better by making it more so.
except we're talking about soccer which is completely uncapped and the richest teams buy the best players.. he specifically said "soccer for your americans"
On May 01 2015 05:21 AsnSensation wrote: Trying to learn kalista, what's the best build for her?
Still bt or is Botrk better again now with the new patch? Ruunans y/n?
It very much depends.
Ruunan's is best if you need wave clear and is great for split pushing/hard farming waves. Without Ruunan's Kalista has some of the worst wave clear in the game but with it some of the better. This also means that Ruunan's can be very effective at catapulting you into your power items (which are BT/Whisper/attack speed)
Kalista has very good raw AD scaling (.3 per auto attack on rend + an extra .3 on the first auto attack on rend, and 1.0 on her Q) and her damage is backloaded so she tends to favor survivability over crit. Which is why BT is a common first or second item on her.
In general though your decision process should be
1. "Do i need to wave clear or do i need to duel": Wave Clear => Ruunans. Duel => BotRK
2 a"Did i get Ruunan's First" => BT
2 b"Did i get BotRK first and still need to wave clear?" Yes => Ruunans No=> Next Question
2 c"Answered no to above, do they have armor? Yes => Last Whisper no=> Infinity Edge
3. "Do i have last whisper?" Yes=> Infinity Edge No => Last Whisper
4. "Do i have Infinity Edge?" Yes =>Phantom Dancer No=>Infinity Edge
5. "Do i need QSS? Yes = Scimitar No = 5b
5b "Do i have phantom dancer" Yes = BT No= Phantom Dancer
6. What is my ideal final build once i am so flush with cash i can start replacing things.? IE->PD->BT->LW->Scimitar->PD
In the end you have these paths then
Ruunans->BT->Whisper->IE->PD
Ruunans->BT->Whisper->IE->Scimitar
BotRK->LW->IE->PD->Scimitar
BotRK->IE->LW->PD->Scimitar
BotRK->Ruunans->LW->IE->Scimitar <-This is probably the least efficient build, you're only going this way because you incorrectly judged that you wouldn't need wave clear.
Additionally its good to know that getting a BF sword before you get ruunans is perfectly fine if you're going that way. Some people like BotRK->BT but i don't think that the double life steal is that great. Its not bad by any means but might as well go towards full scaling once you already have your primary sustain item
Because that the end of the day the crit scaling and raw AD outweigh other options. IE's crit and passive is worth a 30% multiplier to your AD damage which you should have a good deal of regardless of your build path.
People skipping IE on an AD when they don't have other clear better options are missing out on both mid and lategame damage by a considerable amount.
Now, before the most recent patch i would probably have suggested BT, since BOTRK lifesteal isn't that much. But now that BotRK lifeseals on its proc there isn't a great reason to go for BT over IE
Edit: Essentially IE is the best damage option you have when you don't need utility. Which is something you're always going to run into on Kalista at some point. It also enables you to get the lategame DPS efficient build.
chroma pack prices are ridiculous and i believed they might actually make them aviable for IP lol /e nvm didnt realize it adds prices if u dont own champion/skin, still the ones they did suck for 590rp ;/
PLEASE don't go Runaan's first. Sure you'll have great waveclear, but you'll basically be useless in a teamfight. Well, I guess you have the ability to throw your support at someone, but that's about it.
On May 01 2015 07:58 Goumindong wrote: Because that the end of the day the crit scaling and raw AD outweigh other options. IE's crit and passive is worth a 30% multiplier to your AD damage which you should have a good deal of regardless of your build path.
People skipping IE on an AD when they don't have other clear better options are missing out on both mid and lategame damage by a considerable amount.
Now, before the most recent patch i would probably have suggested BT, since BOTRK lifesteal isn't that much. But now that BotRK lifeseals on its proc there isn't a great reason to go for BT over IE
Edit: Essentially IE is the best damage option you have when you don't need utility. Which is something you're always going to run into on Kalista at some point. It also enables you to get the lategame DPS efficient build.
you'll generally have no other crit chance though. also I would much rather prefer the BT for more survivability since as long as kalista survives the initial burst/engage she will kite the fuck out of the enemy.
thats the reason BT is the most common first item for kalista at the moment. what kalista needs most is the ability to survive and draw out the length of a teamfight so she can get massive rends.
its not worth sacrificing the BT for the chance at a crit at an average of every 5 autos.
edit: tho I will agree if you're not going hurricane, you should get ie.
1) It doesn't matter if you have no other crit chance. Its still the highest damage option
2) We are talking about it as an item for after you have BT or BotRK. So you already have your sustain/survivability.
why are there threads about varus being op mid now
did they buff him or something since the q cd fix (which i thought was bugged anyways)
that, and cuz poe picked him up in the finals vs fnatic, and did pretty good with it. then bjergsen played some yolo queue in it and dumpstered scrubs.
On May 01 2015 09:05 AsnSensation wrote: The only chromepack that might be worth considering is Lee imo.
blitz one looks pretty good, especially the metallic color.
why are there threads about varus being op mid now
did they buff him or something since the q cd fix (which i thought was bugged anyways)
Because the one thing Varus needed to be good again happened (ie., the assassin and bruiser meta went away).
The Q cooldown change helped (I believe it's till bugged, it's like a 1/3 chance of it not working properly), and if you go for the CD build you basically turn into a 1600 range sniper able to fire 1600 range headshots every 2-3 seconds (assuming the Q doesn't bug, in which case you fire arrows every 5-8s).
His weaknesses (no escape, low mana regen) are countered by now naturally short the mid lane is, getting blue buff, and getting Essence Reaver (assuming you go for the CDR build).
Plus, the new BC applies to everything he hits, so in theory you can go Reaver > Bruta (eventually to turn into Youmou's) > BC > LW and have 40% CDR easy, a fair bit of AD, a bit extra mobility due to Phage passive, and lots of armor pen.
You could also do something like Lucidity boots + BC + 5% CDR masteries to get to 40% CDR, and turn Reaver and Bruta into IE and PD instead.
Before the new patch hit, Sneaky took Varus bot lane and built Reaver + old BC + Tear + Lucidity boots and had the 5% CDR mastery. By the end of the game he was nearly two-shotting the enemy Leblanc (she had Void + Morellos + Rabadons + M. Pen boots). Granted, his team was up like 10k gold (the score was like 35 to 20 when he had those items finished) but even against the enemy team's front line each Q was hitting for 500-750 a shot.
On May 01 2015 07:58 Goumindong wrote: Because that the end of the day the crit scaling and raw AD outweigh other options. IE's crit and passive is worth a 30% multiplier to your AD damage which you should have a good deal of regardless of your build path.
People skipping IE on an AD when they don't have other clear better options are missing out on both mid and lategame damage by a considerable amount.
Now, before the most recent patch i would probably have suggested BT, since BOTRK lifesteal isn't that much. But now that BotRK lifeseals on its proc there isn't a great reason to go for BT over IE
Edit: Essentially IE is the best damage option you have when you don't need utility. Which is something you're always going to run into on Kalista at some point. It also enables you to get the lategame DPS efficient build.
you'll generally have no other crit chance though. also I would much rather prefer the BT for more survivability since as long as kalista survives the initial burst/engage she will kite the fuck out of the enemy.
thats the reason BT is the most common first item for kalista at the moment. what kalista needs most is the ability to survive and draw out the length of a teamfight so she can get massive rends.
its not worth sacrificing the BT for the chance at a crit at an average of every 5 autos.
edit: tho I will agree if you're not going hurricane, you should get ie.
1) It doesn't matter if you have no other crit chance. Its still the highest damage option
2) We are talking about it as an item for after you have BT or BotRK. So you already have your sustain/survivability.
1) not by enough to warrant taking it over BT/botrk
2) you should be starting BT and getting botrk later. that botrk will help much more than that IE.
I think people forget, the only reason to play kalista is for the pew scoot pew scoot mechanics, that means more AS = more fun. That's why BotRK+Hurricaine is a good build, everything else is moot.
why are there threads about varus being op mid now
did they buff him or something since the q cd fix (which i thought was bugged anyways)
Because the one thing Varus needed to be good again happened (ie., the assassin and bruiser meta went away).
The Q cooldown change helped (I believe it's till bugged, it's like a 1/3 chance of it not working properly), and if you go for the CD build you basically turn into a 1600 range sniper able to fire 1600 range headshots every 2-3 seconds (assuming the Q doesn't bug, in which case you fire arrows every 5-8s).
His weaknesses (no escape, low mana regen) are countered by now naturally short the mid lane is, getting blue buff, and getting Essence Reaver (assuming you go for the CDR build).
Plus, the new BC applies to everything he hits, so in theory you can go Reaver > Bruta (eventually to turn into Youmou's) > BC > LW and have 40% CDR easy, a fair bit of AD, a bit extra mobility due to Phage passive, and lots of armor pen.
You could also do something like Lucidity boots + BC + 5% CDR masteries to get to 40% CDR, and turn Reaver and Bruta into IE and PD instead.
Before the new patch hit, Sneaky took Varus bot lane and built Reaver + old BC + Tear + Lucidity boots and had the 5% CDR mastery. By the end of the game he was nearly two-shotting the enemy Leblanc (she had Void + Morellos + Rabadons + M. Pen boots). Granted, his team was up like 10k gold (the score was like 35 to 20 when he had those items finished) but even against the enemy team's front line each Q was hitting for 500-750 a shot.
It's funny because I always felt that Varus had more of a solo laner kit (Quinn style) and was lackluster as a typical ADC. I much prefer playing him as a caster rather than as a marksman but now it's meta and i'm hipster and feeling sad
why are there threads about varus being op mid now
did they buff him or something since the q cd fix (which i thought was bugged anyways)
Because the one thing Varus needed to be good again happened (ie., the assassin and bruiser meta went away).
The Q cooldown change helped (I believe it's till bugged, it's like a 1/3 chance of it not working properly), and if you go for the CD build you basically turn into a 1600 range sniper able to fire 1600 range headshots every 2-3 seconds (assuming the Q doesn't bug, in which case you fire arrows every 5-8s).
His weaknesses (no escape, low mana regen) are countered by now naturally short the mid lane is, getting blue buff, and getting Essence Reaver (assuming you go for the CDR build).
Plus, the new BC applies to everything he hits, so in theory you can go Reaver > Bruta (eventually to turn into Youmou's) > BC > LW and have 40% CDR easy, a fair bit of AD, a bit extra mobility due to Phage passive, and lots of armor pen.
You could also do something like Lucidity boots + BC + 5% CDR masteries to get to 40% CDR, and turn Reaver and Bruta into IE and PD instead.
Before the new patch hit, Sneaky took Varus bot lane and built Reaver + old BC + Tear + Lucidity boots and had the 5% CDR mastery. By the end of the game he was nearly two-shotting the enemy Leblanc (she had Void + Morellos + Rabadons + M. Pen boots). Granted, his team was up like 10k gold (the score was like 35 to 20 when he had those items finished) but even against the enemy team's front line each Q was hitting for 500-750 a shot.
It's funny because I always felt that Varus had more of a solo laner kit (Quinn style) and was lackluster as a typical ADC. I much prefer playing him as a caster rather than as a marksman but now it's meta and i'm hipster and feeling sad
Meh, it's ok. PoE did it against Fnatic and it was ok, and I think Varus mid's shown up in China as well. The biggest issue with it is you have to have the right bans (ban Zed and LB) and a comp built around it; don't take it into solo Q without expecting a ton of flack from your allies.
In theory, you'd want a tanky top and jungler to act as front line (Sejuani would work great with Varus) with their being some sources of AP damage somewhere so the enemy team doesn't just build nothing but armor against your team. I'd recommend Corki for the ADC bot, maybe a Kennen or Annie support, and have Vlad or Sejuani in the comp too (the former provides sustained damage if the enemy team tries to fight, the latter acts as a front wall and engage).
As for the BotRK vs BT discussion:
It'll depend upon what the enemy team is running, and what your adc is. Sometimes just having BotRK is enough (they have a lot of beef, but not a ton of armor/thornmail just yet). Other times BT is the needed item (the shield helps vs. assassin mids). And there are a few corner cases where having both will help (usually it's lategame and you need the sustain for fights because everyone's sitting on 3-6 items and you have to cut through 1-3 tanks and are expected to survive somehow when you have little/no peel).
I played a game with a blue chroma skin lee, shit looked awesome. Kinda of want.
-
In other news AD Shyv is so fun. I watched the cowsep video and have been playing with it ever since. I'm liking Ad Jungle item into Beserker boots into IE. Then I go PD/LW/whatever. Fastest clears on any jungler ive played i think (once you get your jungle item anyway) and two shotting ad carries is hilarious.
On May 01 2015 07:58 Goumindong wrote: Because that the end of the day the crit scaling and raw AD outweigh other options. IE's crit and passive is worth a 30% multiplier to your AD damage which you should have a good deal of regardless of your build path.
People skipping IE on an AD when they don't have other clear better options are missing out on both mid and lategame damage by a considerable amount.
Now, before the most recent patch i would probably have suggested BT, since BOTRK lifesteal isn't that much. But now that BotRK lifeseals on its proc there isn't a great reason to go for BT over IE
Edit: Essentially IE is the best damage option you have when you don't need utility. Which is something you're always going to run into on Kalista at some point. It also enables you to get the lategame DPS efficient build.
you'll generally have no other crit chance though. also I would much rather prefer the BT for more survivability since as long as kalista survives the initial burst/engage she will kite the fuck out of the enemy.
thats the reason BT is the most common first item for kalista at the moment. what kalista needs most is the ability to survive and draw out the length of a teamfight so she can get massive rends.
its not worth sacrificing the BT for the chance at a crit at an average of every 5 autos.
edit: tho I will agree if you're not going hurricane, you should get ie.
1) It doesn't matter if you have no other crit chance. Its still the highest damage option
2) We are talking about it as an item for after you have BT or BotRK. So you already have your sustain/survivability.
1) not by enough to warrant taking it over BT/botrk
2) you should be starting BT and getting botrk later. that botrk will help much more than that IE.
BUT YOU ALREADY HAVE BT/BOTRK.
And you should not get both
why not both?
BT is pretty much mandatory on kalista. literally everyone gets BT on kalista. so then you're choosing between botrk or IE. botrk is the obvious choice here.
Because you're paying a lot for lifesteal you don't need and because IE has more damage
Can someone explain to me how why Manamune is good on Varus? I used to do shit like AD Caster Ashe which makes more sense because she has a 4 second CD volley. Varus has much longer CDs so what makes it acceptable now?
On May 01 2015 10:48 AsianEcksDragon wrote: Can someone explain to me how why Manamune is good on Varus? I used to do shit like AD Caster Ashe which makes more sense because she has a 4 second CD volley. Varus has much longer CDs so what makes it acceptable now?
Assuming you go CDR Varus you don't get enough mana back even with Reaver letting you regain some from AAing minions (if Reaver passive applied to physical AD damage like new BC, it would be enough). You use tear to just let you have near infinite mana so you can just siege from 1600 range with your Q arrows. Again, this assumes you are playing him as ADC, are going the CDR build on him, and do not get blue buff or are expected to get blue buff for the majority of the game.
Also, for those looking to do CDR Varus from bot lane, I'd recommend getting a BFS on the first back, then on the second back getting Tear. Buying tear first is just so horrible on Varus, and you need the BFS's damage to let you win trades/get kills in bot post-6 with well-timed Q harass.
If you play Rend Kalista, getting BotRK and BT over one and IE is much better. Your biggest damage is backloaded. May as well survive the fight as long as possible and get as many consistent-damage AAs in as possible.
If you want IE, just build standard ADC. It's just as viable as the Hurricane build.
so how do i lane as fizz right now? before the rework/nerfs i could always threaten with all in to go for a farm now his early all in isnt so good and i usually get heavily denied -.-
so how do i lane as fizz right now? before the rework/nerfs i could always threaten with all in to go for a farm now his early all in isnt so good and i usually get heavily denied -.-
Isn't his W very good at trades? His early burst got nerfed yeah, which would probably be the reason he sees bruiser play in top lane now, or you pick him into melee mid laners. His lv 6 all in is still strong though, if you can survive to that point he just plays out like normal, except missing Urf hurts a lot more to your all in.
On May 02 2015 03:33 cLutZ wrote: Ahh yes, genius. Double PD with no IE!
You get IE after the PD's.
You don't get LW because you're Vayne.
Double PD requires you to either be a god or have great peel to be worth it.
then why aren't you a god?
Have you seen the paperwork involved in filing to become a god? That's a miracle in and of itself. And the upkeep of the title is insane too. Totally not worth the hastle.
so how do i lane as fizz right now? before the rework/nerfs i could always threaten with all in to go for a farm now his early all in isnt so good and i usually get heavily denied -.-
Isn't his W very good at trades? His early burst got nerfed yeah, which would probably be the reason he sees bruiser play in top lane now, or you pick him into melee mid laners. His lv 6 all in is still strong though, if you can survive to that point he just plays out like normal, except missing Urf hurts a lot more to your all in.
He's pretty bad vs ranged right now because unlike Talon,Zed,Diana etc he has 0 ranged options so returning damage is a really big commitment and he doesn't really out trade anyone unless you dodge a skill with trickster or urchin strike.
Now that he has some of his ratios back he can snowball pretty hard again and with a couple kills can shed his ult reliance. But in general i think he's really hard to play mid unless you have an early game jungler to protect you from getting pushed
I should expand to say I have not tried W max in mid as of yet, technically W max has always been the highest vs, champion damage potential, but nobody (except Westdoor I belive) maxed it because E was, good enough and crucially gave you wave clear as well as a significantly reduced cd on your escape/gap close. There is one guy on NA, Abou222/Reap22 who is making it work, I've tried to copy his masteries but I'm just not feeling he's top tier anymore.
On May 02 2015 03:33 cLutZ wrote: Ahh yes, genius. Double PD with no IE!
You get IE after the PD's.
You don't get LW because you're Vayne.
Well, first of all, that's a myth, and second of all, 13000 gold till your build is online is a recipe for disaster. Particularly if you are a champ like Vayne that is terrible before she's online.
all the best vayne players i ve played with always go aggressive early and do a lot all the game theres nothing special about vayne making her good lategame she scales similarlyto other adcs except against fed tanks
shes weak when behind rather than only strong lategame
On May 02 2015 05:21 Slayer91 wrote: vayne isn't terribel at all wtf
all the best vayne players i ve played with always go aggressive early and do a lot all the game theres nothing special about vayne making her good lategame she scales similarlyto other adcs except against fed tanks
shes weak when behind rather than only strong lategame
I disagree because of her lack of spells. And thus her range is more or less fixed. And she scales differently in that when Autos start taking over compared to longer cd spells, and teamfights get more drawn out she increases in power, or if she can splitpush she can power through.
On May 02 2015 05:21 Slayer91 wrote: vayne isn't terribel at all wtf
all the best vayne players i ve played with always go aggressive early and do a lot all the game theres nothing special about vayne making her good lategame she scales similarlyto other adcs except against fed tanks
shes weak when behind rather than only strong lategame
Teut can you explain to me why I sometimes go 6/0 vs Vlad in lane and sometimes can't do shit vs him? I feel like there isn't that much different in what I'm doing and in what he's doing, but apparently there are a lot of intricacies about the matchup I'm missing Talking about Garen of course.
Vayne just sucks until she buys her first item(which makes bt even more retarded).Her strongest point is lvl 11-13 with 2 finished items.
Don't really see a reason to go 2 pds other than it is pretty fun to shoot fast though wouldn't use too much thought on if it is good no matter of your mechanics.
So did anyone else patch again after playing League yesterday/Wednesday after 5.8 dropped? Cause I did, and assume it's to fix some of the more noteworthy bugs (ala Morg black shield CC bug) that showed up after 5.8 went live.
essence reaver shiv bc lucian man, shit is so fun. Although you might want to hesitate pulling it out on ranked people just flame you instead of playing the game
On May 02 2015 07:44 wei2coolman wrote: why essence reaver? just buy some pots with your IE and it'll do the same for ya.
I am guessing it is for the CDR and also being the cheapest 80AD item? I am also guessing one would be using the fact that Lucian can double tap to make up for the loss of the scaling from IE?
you can't really spam that much without essence reaver unless you're getting blues. You run out of mana fast playing that way. Although if you're mid lucian this might not be an issue
saw Voyboy doing it the other day and you can apparantly spam like crazy with essence reaver on Lucian. Needed to take some time off breakdancing with your E to just shoot minions every once in a while but it seemed really strong. He was ahead though.
On May 02 2015 03:33 cLutZ wrote: Ahh yes, genius. Double PD with no IE!
You get IE after the PD's.
You don't get LW because you're Vayne.
Well, first of all, that's a myth, and second of all, 13000 gold till your build is online is a recipe for disaster. Particularly if you are a champ like Vayne that is terrible before she's online.
You're vayne. You're online at BT and PD. The second PD is for movement/kite/w. You're buying it because you're buying an attack speed item so it might as well be the one that scales with crit compared to the ones that dont
On May 02 2015 03:33 cLutZ wrote: Ahh yes, genius. Double PD with no IE!
You get IE after the PD's.
You don't get LW because you're Vayne.
Well, first of all, that's a myth, and second of all, 13000 gold till your build is online is a recipe for disaster. Particularly if you are a champ like Vayne that is terrible before she's online.
You're vayne. You're online at BT and PD. The second PD is for movement/kite/w. You're buying it because you're buying an attack speed item so it might as well be the one that scales with crit compared to the ones that dont
I really think double PD is a goofy build that is both not good and creates a massive power trough.
Edit 1: At that point IMO it would be better to have a BT/PD/LW Lucian, and continue to be better until after they both finished IE.
2: This linked on reddit disappointed me so much, I thought it was an article about Ambition's jungle renaissance.
definitely mute your team the instant you buy essence reaver, it's the obvious target for a feeding teammate who is looking to shift the focus/blame away from himself.
nobody would blink an eye if you had a BT, but even though you actually have more offensive stats with ER, you're pretty much guaranteed to get some more moron saying something like "omg adc no damage".
On May 02 2015 12:59 chalice wrote: definitely mute your team the instant you buy essence reaver, it's the obvious target for a feeding teammate who is looking to shift the focus/blame away from himself.
nobody would blink an eye if you had a BT, but even though you actually have more offensive stats with ER, you're pretty much guaranteed to get some more moron saying something like "omg adc no damage".
yeah, but no one builds BT first on lucian anyways... You should be getting IE, in which case the offensive stat is beyond stronger.
On May 02 2015 12:59 chalice wrote: definitely mute your team the instant you buy essence reaver, it's the obvious target for a feeding teammate who is looking to shift the focus/blame away from himself.
nobody would blink an eye if you had a BT, but even though you actually have more offensive stats with ER, you're pretty much guaranteed to get some more moron saying something like "omg adc no damage".
yeah, but no one builds BT first on lucian anyways... You should be getting IE, in which case the offensive stat is beyond stronger.
On May 02 2015 12:59 chalice wrote: definitely mute your team the instant you buy essence reaver, it's the obvious target for a feeding teammate who is looking to shift the focus/blame away from himself.
nobody would blink an eye if you had a BT, but even though you actually have more offensive stats with ER, you're pretty much guaranteed to get some more moron saying something like "omg adc no damage".
yeah, but no one builds BT first on lucian anyways... You should be getting IE, in which case the offensive stat is beyond stronger.
Let me tell you a story about a man named Bang...
Let me tell you a story about how in soloq your ad is not bang and your team is not sktt1...
On May 02 2015 05:21 Slayer91 wrote: vayne isn't terribel at all wtf
all the best vayne players i ve played with always go aggressive early and do a lot all the game theres nothing special about vayne making her good lategame she scales similarlyto other adcs except against fed tanks
shes weak when behind rather than only strong lategame
Teut can you explain to me why I sometimes go 6/0 vs Vlad in lane and sometimes can't do shit vs him? I feel like there isn't that much different in what I'm doing and in what he's doing, but apparently there are a lot of intricacies about the matchup I'm missing Talking about Garen of course.
dunno i have the opposite experience once it gets past 11 i just dumpster him usually once your q tends to max rank he cant really escape you so as long as you dont do stupid shit you're fine you have good regen too past 11 so its not like he has a huge sustain advantage and you can always run away when you want to
On May 02 2015 05:21 Slayer91 wrote: vayne isn't terribel at all wtf
all the best vayne players i ve played with always go aggressive early and do a lot all the game theres nothing special about vayne making her good lategame she scales similarlyto other adcs except against fed tanks
shes weak when behind rather than only strong lategame
Teut can you explain to me why I sometimes go 6/0 vs Vlad in lane and sometimes can't do shit vs him? I feel like there isn't that much different in what I'm doing and in what he's doing, but apparently there are a lot of intricacies about the matchup I'm missing Talking about Garen of course.
dunno i have the opposite experience once it gets past 11 i just dumpster him usually once your q tends to max rank he cant really escape you so as long as you dont do stupid shit you're fine you have good regen too past 11 so its not like he has a huge sustain advantage and you can always run away when you want to
Getting to level 11 takes a long time, and at that point usually I can just spin2win the wave anyway, more looking for stuff before that. Ofcourse with maxed Q you win, but without that I dunno. Sometimes they just roll over and other times they don't.
anyways 6-11 is tricky just play better and you win easy
Best advice of the year here and I wish I was sarcastic..
To go back on adc itemization, I think that BT or even ER vs IE first item isn't so bad for ads simply because you can change your playstyle alot more. Sure you'll be weaker somewhat in teamfights, but in small skirmishes where you can fight a war of attrition and laning is still going, or small jungle fights, you might actually pull ahead overall. 23% lifesteal (BT + dorans) is quite alot.. And you also have to realise: it costs less and only 1 in 5 shots will crit for 250%. Ofcourse you'll be the recipient of 3 in a row, but you just gotta roll with the punches I guess
And then you play a game vs someone who buys cinderhulk who runs at you and you realize why people don't buy bt first unless you are getting carried or are very ahead.
I really dont know how to use Zhonya's :/. I know Im not a mid main but damn. Have to remind myself constantly and still forget I have that stupid item. Might as well not buy it.
Dunno why you guys are arguing about ADC's though.
Most popular ADCs in Chinese masters/challenger remains Vayne Kalista and Lucian. Draven gets focused too damn hard early on but is still a damn beast if allowed to get ahead. Graves and Corki are decent, and Urgot remains unpopular as fuck. Ezreal is a still a favorite among the koreans on the Chinese ladder, and Sivir is still Sivir
Honestly though, Vayne is viewed more of an assassin than a tank buster now. Shes too unstable for both the opponents and her teammates. Honestly if you want a tank buster ADC go Kogmaw and have something like Nunu, LuLu, Nautilus, Azir or something like that. Vayne's range is too low to fight the current meta's tanks competitively...she'll just get comboed down.
On May 02 2015 23:39 kongoline wrote: why am i not surprised riven so often defended buy her mains with high skillcap and hard to play arguments is at the top of winrate and popularity -.-
Didn't they make Riven Q auto anim cancel for you now? Did they ever fix that?
im just salty whenever i have to play melee champion she goes for trade full combo me meanwhile im unable to land a single attack cuz she cancels them all, bullshit ...
On May 02 2015 23:39 kongoline wrote: why am i not surprised riven so often defended buy her mains with high skillcap and hard to play arguments is at the top of winrate and popularity -.-
Didn't they make Riven Q auto anim cancel for you now? Did they ever fix that?
It never went live. It was never an intentional change.
They didn't push it through, it was on PBE and people were pretty upset.
TIL: - Yasuo's Q can crit and triggers on-hit effect such as lifesteal, but contrary to Ez's Q, GP's Q, Fiora's ult, etc. it does not trigger Thornmail. Yeah no surprise I can barely dent him with tanks, that's pretty bullshit though. - Either he can't be cc'd, or he becomes untargetable during his ult. I used mine as Nautilus at the same time he used his Q3, and he didn't get knocked-up during his ult. His shield didn't take damage either so I assume he becomes untargetable, making Naut's ult (and prob a bunch of other spells) disappear.. It happens with Fizz's pole and Vlad's pool (not sure about Fiora and Yi) so it wouldn't be surprising, but the untargetable for 1s + shield + cc would make his ult pretty darn dumb in terms of survivability.
On May 03 2015 02:28 Alaric wrote: They didn't push it through, it was on PBE and people were pretty upset.
TIL: - Yasuo's Q can crit and triggers on-hit effect such as lifesteal, but contrary to Ez's Q, GP's Q, Fiora's ult, etc. it does not trigger Thornmail. Yeah no surprise I can barely dent him with tanks, that's pretty bullshit though. - Either he can't be cc'd, or he becomes untargetable during his ult. I used mine as Nautilus at the same time he used his Q3, and he didn't get knocked-up during his ult. His shield didn't take damage either so I assume he becomes untargetable, making Naut's ult (and prob a bunch of other spells) disappear.. It happens with Fizz's pole and Vlad's pool (not sure about Fiora and Yi) so it wouldn't be surprising, but the untargetable for 1s + shield + cc would make his ult pretty darn dumb in terms of survivability.
I believe he can't be CCed during his ult, though any damage a skill does will apply. I know for a fact I've killed a Yasuo mid ult so it's not that he becomes untargettable (I've killed him w/ Vi ult and Lissandra ult).
Oh? That's weird then, because he didn't have a wall out (it stops Naut's ult) but it still didn't cc him and his shield remained full (so he didn't take damage), but my ult was on cd (and it started casting before Yasuo used his).
I'm not 100% sure about Naut's ult's behaviour (initially it uses to refund the cooldown when Vlad used his pool or Akali turned stealthed by casting her shroud for example, it was changed at some point without a mention in patch notes; it was a weird behaviour anyway), but in most cases the ult is cancelled when people become untargetable so I assume that's what it was. Not sure why it didn't do anything to Yasuo then.
Rito pls make Lee Sin better. I thought Viktor would be higher.
Viktor was only ever a hard farming mid lane when you wanted to delay the game and/or play a 5 man whombo comp. He was never good in soloqueue, even at the height of his LCS usage
On May 03 2015 05:03 Chemiczny84 wrote: his shield renews as soon as he ults maybe the timing was perfect
Yeah, but since his ult is instant (and he "tp"s to the targets) I assumed either my ult hits him, he's cc'd, he can't ult me, or the ult reaches him afterwards, and by then he has his shield.
Gahlo if you weren't so preoccupied with yourself trying to look smug, maybe you'd realise I spend as much time talking about bugs (someone told me about Ahri's Charm interrupting Vi's ult today, but I hink he confused it with Q) as I do actually asking about game mechanics so I can understand stuff better when I encounter unexpected results.
On May 03 2015 03:12 Alaric wrote: Oh? That's weird then, because he didn't have a wall out (it stops Naut's ult) but it still didn't cc him and his shield remained full (so he didn't take damage), but my ult was on cd (and it started casting before Yasuo used his).
I'm not 100% sure about Naut's ult's behaviour (initially it uses to refund the cooldown when Vlad used his pool or Akali turned stealthed by casting her shroud for example, it was changed at some point without a mention in patch notes; it was a weird behaviour anyway), but in most cases the ult is cancelled when people become untargetable so I assume that's what it was. Not sure why it didn't do anything to Yasuo then.
I know that there's a weird interaction with how CC reacts to Yasuo in his ult. From what I could tell, the game wants the full animation to go through (the whole lifting foes into the air into Omnislash animation before ground slam) but he's still able to be hit by spells and attacks. It might be that the teleport portion of the ult acts like a Zhonyas or Zed ult where he straight up leaves the map for a quarter of a second, meaning any sort of point and click damage skill just vanishes.
In my prior example when I Vi ulted him it was after he teleported and was in the animation of his ult, I've never had a Vi ult go on a Yasuo and then have him TP/ult in response before she hits and begins her grab+lift+slam animation.
On May 03 2015 05:03 Chemiczny84 wrote: his shield renews as soon as he ults maybe the timing was perfect
Yeah, but since his ult is instant (and he "tp"s to the targets) I assumed either my ult hits him, he's cc'd, he can't ult me, or the ult reaches him afterwards, and by then he has his shield.
Gahlo if you weren't so preoccupied with yourself trying to look smug, maybe you'd realise I spend as much time talking about bugs (someone told me about Ahri's Charm interrupting Vi's ult today, but I hink he confused it with Q) as I do actually asking about game mechanics so I can understand stuff better when I encounter unexpected results.
It was a bug with how Ahri's Charm interrupted Vi's ult, which was fixed in this patch (they mention it in the patch notes). Right now I think the only people that can "fizzle" a Vi ult are Zed ult, Lissandra ult, a Zhonyas activation, and (I suspect) a Bard ult on whomever Vi has targetted.
Unless they changed it (and they never even acknowledged it exists despite it showing up in a Gambit game in the LCS), there are timings where displacements will work on Vi during her ult (notably when she transitions from the dash to the lift). Stuff like Flay work on it (the person will still get lifted and suppressed, but Vi will be moved and cc'd, so it tends to fuck with your Q follow-up if you wanna do a lock).
Vlad's pool, Fizz's pole, and probably Yi's Q too (noone plays Yi so I didn't encounter it) make it "fizzle" and Vi stops where she is when the spell is used. It cuts Naut's ult too, so I assume any projectile and ongoing cast just "fizzles" when the target becomes untargetable (Maokai's W is the exception, if he's in flight he'll follow them and "hover" around until they reappear to root them, I don't know if there are others). Because Shaco's ult can let him dodge Requiem with proper timing, it probably disjoints all these too.
On May 03 2015 05:03 Chemiczny84 wrote: his shield renews as soon as he ults maybe the timing was perfect
Yeah, but since his ult is instant (and he "tp"s to the targets) I assumed either my ult hits him, he's cc'd, he can't ult me, or the ult reaches him afterwards, and by then he has his shield.
Gahlo if you weren't so preoccupied with yourself trying to look smug, maybe you'd realise I spend as much time talking about bugs (someone told me about Ahri's Charm interrupting Vi's ult today, but I hink he confused it with Q) as I do actually asking about game mechanics so I can understand stuff better when I encounter unexpected results.
It was a joke. You know, humor? I'd only try to be smug about it if after getting your answer you denied it as being a bug. I'm not the first person here to make it.
I tend to lack humour when about anytime I ask about a game mechanic or champion (in here, since most other threads apart from Simple questions/answers tend to lack attention, sadly) I get the exact same response. Sure, when I'm whining I deserve it, but people got so used to the "fotm" joke of making fun of me that a bunch don't consider the posts anymore and just try to be witty even when I try to start a discussion. It gets old.
In another topic, how often do people run Trailblazer? I played mostly Olaf when the s5 jungle rolled out so I got used to Stalker's Blade for the slow, and I use it with Nautilus too (some more cc, plus he can use the bonus MS with his atrocious base). I noticed with Amumu I'd get low on my first clear (prob bad runes, I should try AS/AP marks/quints, same with Gragas, over MPen/AP or AD/AS), and I'd often lack mana. Gragas can be mana-hungry too early on, if using the Skirmisher's, so I thought maybe cutting it could be useful. The smite doesn't do that much damage after all, and Olaf's a different case since ensuring a Q hit is a Flash burnt or kill usually and he's got no gap closers.
I have trouble picturing me without the additional cc but maybe it's just a mental block and Trailblazer would make up for it by letting me gank more often, especially with "active" junglers, by keeping me healthy/with mana to use abilities.
On May 03 2015 07:29 LightningStrike wrote: I think wickd just trolls in solo queue because that is a insanely bad build for malphite to g becuase he loves armor and health but not ad....
He has the biggest AD steroid in the game???? it's just not practical
On May 03 2015 07:29 LightningStrike wrote: I think wickd just trolls in solo queue because that is a insanely bad build for malphite to g becuase he loves armor and health but not ad....
He has the biggest AD steroid in the game???? it's just not practical
It only goes up with how much armor you got on him I think.
I remember chu8 used to run AD malphite w/ Sword of the Divine, Hydra, and IE. If he hit ult it was a pretty much guaranteed kill on whichever champs go caught in it.
On May 03 2015 08:48 Nohiko wrote: I remember chu8 used to run AD malphite w/ Sword of the Divine, Hydra, and IE. If he hit ult it was a pretty much guaranteed kill on whichever champs go caught in it.
Yeah I used to do this on Aatrox too, it was fun. But since theres no SOTD anymore go IE Shyv its the best, pretty similar feeling to SotD Malp and Aatrox
Nunu gets stupid tanky with cinderhuk + golem buff, and then with 3k hp (easy to achieve by midgame) he's getting an extra 30 dmg on autos (which actually matters at that point)
On May 03 2015 16:55 Fildun wrote: Alright boys, any tips on explaining League to my mom? Does anybody know any good videos about it?
League is a competitive 5v5 game that encorporates aspects of many different computer game genres.
The core game objective is like chess but played in real time. You win when you get the other teams King. No player controls the king. Players control individual peices which have unique abilities like Knights and bishops while the computer controls the pawns.
When two players meet, the outcome is determined by a mix of player skill, and piece strength. When you win a meeting you get advantages which accrue and make it easier to win the next meeting. These advantages are in "levels" and "items". Levels scale up your piece in a predictable way while items let you customize how you advance.
Then you can talk the specifics like the board (lanes/jungle/towers) et al
Teams of 5 people each pick a character with special abilities and moments in the game when they're more or less strong. The goal is to destroy a building in the enemy team's base, you get inside from any of several paths where there are defensive buildings which must be destroyed first, one after the other. They're stronger than the characters so players do actions that make their characters stronger until they can destroy them. You must generally defeat the enemy team (a character gets a timeout when he's KO'd so he can't help defend the buildings).
It can be compared to American football in terms of tempo, with teams preparing to attack or defend until the action is over, and either the attacking team is successful (usually by pushing deeper into building-less enemy territory) and keeps the initiative, or they fail and the roles are usually reversed (plus you win by basically entering the deep end of the enemy's side).
I think that's more or less how I'd sum it up to people.
On May 03 2015 13:49 obesechicken13 wrote: Why is Nunu doing so well again?
Wasn't he like shit tier in winrates a month ago?
For some reason I can never win with Nunu, I'm not sure if it's just a luck based thing but whenever I pick it my solo lanes decide they want to die by themselves. I normally try to take the level 3 dragon which has a pretty good success rate and I can normally outpace the enemy jungler in terms of items but it doesn't end up mattering much.
I think the only Nunu game I won was playing top lane TP/Smite...
On May 03 2015 18:16 Fildun wrote: I made her play Garen :D Also, I don't think the American football comparison is gonna work, seeing she doesn't know what that is.
Edit: She also knows absolutely nothing about computer games whatsoever, besides minesweeper.
Handball maybe? Seeing how fast-paced it is "oh you didn't score [you lost the teamfight/dive]? Let's all rush your goal to try and take something!"
On May 03 2015 16:55 Fildun wrote: Alright boys, any tips on explaining League to my mom? Does anybody know any good videos about it?
Teams of 5 compete on a map in real time using characters with various roles, spells and abilities, and (generally) use teamwork and coordination to take down various defensive structures to blow up the enemy team's base before they do the same to yours. Any deaths that occur in the game (to you, your allies, or the enemy) are temporary and earn you gold, which you use to buy items to keep you alive or help kill the enemy team and their structures faster.
The characters break down into three main roles: a front line (to take damage and protect your other team mates), some source or sources of damage (physical or magical), and a supportive role that helps the team out in some fashion (provides temporary vision, heals allies, etc.). These roles can mix and match, and not every team will be a balanced mix of front line, damage source, and support. Some teams will have lots of damage sources but very little front line. Others will be made up of mostly front line and supports and rely on a single character to deal most of the damage.
Whenever I explain competitive games of any sort I usually start by calling them a combination of chess, poker and "manual tasks" (requires precise and fast use of a controller). Then I'll add something like "Rock Paper Scissors" for fighting games, or "team sports" for team games.
I've gotten several parents to enjoy watching league before, this is how I explain it:
The entire game is about taking towers. The team who takes all the enemy teams towers wins the game. The towers are kind of like goal posts.
In order to take the towers, the team has to protect the little guys as they get up to the towers. The little guys are kind of like the ball.
The big guys are the players. Their job is mostly to protect their little guys and stop the enemy teams little guys, but in doing so they end up clashing with the other teams players, which is what makes it exciting to watch.
I don't bring up baron/dragon/inhibs/jungle/levels/items/champions at all. That's enough info for them to start watching, and then they'll ask those questions as they watch.
Its kind of like american football, except instead of having one ball on the field, each team has a ball, both teams are playing offense and defense at the same time, and the first team to get a touchdown wins the whole game.
New Ryze is sorta interesting, with Athene's (really need the mana regen now), RoA and Tear he almost permanently be in Arcane Mastery and ultimate mode. Even more pewpewpew and tankiness than pre-rework. His Q's hitbox suck massive balls tho. :-/
On May 04 2015 01:54 Jek wrote: New Ryze is sorta interesting, with Athene's (really need the mana regen now), RoA and Tear he almost permanently be in Arcane Mastery and ultimate mode. Even more pewpewpew and tankiness than pre-rework. His Q's hitbox suck massive balls tho. :-/
His q top lane is what made him bs now I find he still becomes a monster when he has some items but he can get stomped in lane early if u miss q's because u will run oom fast and deal no damage
I actually think that's a pretty good explanation by Ketarah. Fairly easy to relate to due to the fact that almost everyone can figure out basic team sports such as soccer/football.
Yeah, Ketara's method seems like the most likely to work. I always fuck up explaining games to people because I include wayyyy to many details. Need broad strokes, then let them ask questions to fill in the gaps.
On May 04 2015 05:44 Sonnington wrote: I always through this explained LoL pretty well. Although you'd have to have some idea how RPG and RTS games work.
On May 04 2015 07:52 FinestHour wrote: 90% of league players dont even understand the game is about towers and blowing up throne better dive for kills tho cuz MUH SCORE
I had a game where we went 18 minutes (from 25 minutes right to the end when we lost) without getting a single objective after taking all but one inner tower. We had a gold lead the whole game including when we lost at the end. Not a single person on the team would go for a single objective even when they could, and I was support so I couldn't do anything solo. Maybe they need to make everyone watch a little video of what the purpose is before they can play again, just in case people forgot between when they started playing LoL and now.
Ive just watched Cloud9 house tour and you know what? They all have their own rooms :o They dont sit side by side. It's easily the most comfortable gaming house ive ever seen. If you want to watch house tour.
no doubt that Koreans prefer being pro in NA rather than Korea.
Thoughts on cinderhulk ww? His last nerfs were disgusting (ult @6 has 100 less damage and 20s higher cd, W nerfed from 10s-6s), but I can see some positives in the current meta. His clears (especially early) are probably still super slow, but with less early ganks coming from the jungle, he isn't as punished for just farming to 6. With the cinderhulk meta, fights seem to last longer, which is good for ww since he has great sustained damage, especially the %health from Q. Vs a 4k hp cinderhulk tank his Q does 640 and heals for 512 (before resists obv) on a 3.6s cd with max cdr, which is easily obtainable from FH + SV + runes/masteries. With hypercarries being the main damage source, being able to lock them down with his ult also seems like it would be pretty huge.
Only real problem is an big lack of damage besides Q/cinderhulk passive, since i'm not sure how he fits in wits or botrk unless fed. Need to get at least like cinderhulk + boots + FH + SV + randuins. Won't be like the old ww who could 1 shot squishies with ult + botrk/wits/devourer procs + a Q.
I explained League to my mom by saying, "It's a medieval melee, only with fantasy elements and with a few objectives beyond 'beat your opponents into submission'."
It's not precise, but it gives the general idea pretty quickly to a medieval history buff.
On May 04 2015 23:19 Seuss wrote: I explained League to my mom by saying, "It's a medieval melee, only with fantasy elements and with a few objectives beyond 'beat your opponents into submission'."
It's not precise, but it gives the general idea pretty quickly to a medieval history buff.
Yeah but my mom doesn't really read stuff, or watch TV, so basically all those options aren't gonna work :/ I explained it by comparing it to Stratego (idk if that's a thing in the US), because we used to play that a lot.
Stratego is the shit, but I find it confusing as a comparison for League.
league is really simple to explain on a basic level (the person isn't intending to play they just want to know what it is)
it's a 5v5 game where the object is to destroy the opponent's base
even if you are the 100x better team it is impossible to destroy the opponents base without tools, so the game is basically the two teams fighting over resources to purchase tools that will make them strong enough to destroy the base.
(I honestly don't think the fact that you can and probably will kill each other is essential to the non player)
Its an interesting idea, basically it doesn't buff her actual combat ability at all, she doesn't have the energy to use it and her primary dueling abilities at the same time. But it does give her waveclear and pushing ability she didn't have before. She would have the ability to just stand in a wave and E a few times and be much better at split pushing.
On May 04 2015 23:53 Slayer91 wrote: wtf does she do live in a pineapple under the sea?
doesnt read doesnt watch tv doesnt game WTF is her life dedicated to ruining our go4lols?
She does a lot of music and random administration, but idk why that all takes so much time for her.
You know, you could just...have her play a game.
lol
My mom playing a game. How the fuck am I supposed to make that happen, seeing that all vidya games are pure evil.
I assure you your mom can be convinced to hang out with you for 30 minutes regardless of the activity having demons in it.
Well, yeah, I made her play Garen (on my account), but apart from that how do I do the rest. Like, I asked whether I should make an account on League for her, or if she wanted to do that herself, but she said no. Also, what other games would be good for introducing her to gaming?
On May 04 2015 23:53 Slayer91 wrote: wtf does she do live in a pineapple under the sea?
doesnt read doesnt watch tv doesnt game WTF is her life dedicated to ruining our go4lols?
She does a lot of music and random administration, but idk why that all takes so much time for her.
You know, you could just...have her play a game.
lol
My mom playing a game. How the fuck am I supposed to make that happen, seeing that all vidya games are pure evil.
I assure you your mom can be convinced to hang out with you for 30 minutes regardless of the activity having demons in it.
Well, yeah, I made her play Garen (on my account), but apart from that how do I do the rest. Like, I asked whether I should make an account on League for her, or if she wanted to do that herself, but she said no. Also, what other games would be good for introducing her to gaming?
don't think it matters to lane morgana, later ranks even it back out, really comes down to if the crucial rank 3 still does it's thang at -6 damage
it's def intended to nerf support morgs damage, which idk isn't that high to begin with unless you get bound in which case you deserve it. I don't like this change at all.
I....don't know what to make of those Akali changes.
It's basically a waveclear/split-push buff. Even with a seemingly-ridiculous 1 second cooldown you won't see it spammed in team fights since it can't be cast while moving, its AoE is small, and it's energy-intensive.
Otherwise it doesn't change much.
Is Smite Shyvana Top still a thing? I wonder if you could do something similar with Smite Akali.
On May 05 2015 04:51 Ansibled wrote: Super Minions
[Seeing some super increased stats on Super Minions.]
Magic resist increased to 40 from -30
Armor increased to 100 from 30
Base Damage increased to 306 from 180
Uhh? What?
Wait what??? That's one of the worst changes I've seen in a long, long time.
That's not the whole picture. Super Minions also lost their aura which buffs nearby minions.
So basically instead of +70% Damage/Armor/MR on nearby minions that are just going to get cleared near-instantly anyway, you have one big and buff super minion.
On May 04 2015 23:53 Slayer91 wrote: wtf does she do live in a pineapple under the sea?
doesnt read doesnt watch tv doesnt game WTF is her life dedicated to ruining our go4lols?
She does a lot of music and random administration, but idk why that all takes so much time for her.
You know, you could just...have her play a game.
lol
My mom playing a game. How the fuck am I supposed to make that happen, seeing that all vidya games are pure evil.
I assure you your mom can be convinced to hang out with you for 30 minutes regardless of the activity having demons in it.
Well, yeah, I made her play Garen (on my account), but apart from that how do I do the rest. Like, I asked whether I should make an account on League for her, or if she wanted to do that herself, but she said no. Also, what other games would be good for introducing her to gaming?
Super Smash Bros, Mario Cart, perhaps a sports game related to sports she enjoys.
Honestly, its unlikely that she will get into gaming. It seems like you might be an only child because otherwise you would probably play a game with a sibling and then she would know you're not a weirdo. So play some videogames with your cousins or something.
Are you guys not reading the whole notes or something?
Super Minions
No longer grants the Minion Commander Aura (+70% increased damage and +70 armor/MR) to itself and the minions around it. Several Base Stat changes (to compensate for that change)
Magic resist increased to 40 from -30
Armor increased to 100 from 30
Base Damage increased to 306 from 180
There is literally no difference between old and new super minions after this patch. This is only a nerf to all of the non-super minions in the wave with them.
On May 05 2015 04:40 Slusher wrote: those super minion changes make the first inhib advantage so much bigger
No. The super minions lose the aura. Basically, super minions' effective stats unchanged (aura factored in current base stats), aura lost for lane minions. Makes clearing the little minions easier.
Morgana is buffed with her base damage on level W 1 up by 50%. More waveclear for support Morgana basically. Shouldn't change too much for lane Morgana (unless W at level 1 and push is a thing? I thought she waited till 3, or even 5) and it's the same damage at level 9. Nvm surrender@20 had it reversed, RoG has the right numbers.
@cLutZ After trying to get my friends into RA3 and failing miserably. Along with a friend of mine basically being bronze/silver tier at SC2 with no hope of improving, I decided it wasn't worth trying to get my friends into these types of games. Try and get her into Mario Party or something simple. I used to play a lot of Burnout Paradise with my friends because showtime mode was super fun and only required one button to play.
On May 05 2015 08:00 Sonnington wrote: @cLutZ After trying to get my friends into RA3 and failing miserably. Along with a friend of mine basically being bronze/silver tier at SC2 with no hope of improving, I decided it wasn't worth trying to get my friends into these types of games. Try and get her into Mario Party or something simple. I used to play a lot of Burnout Paradise with my friends because showtime mode was super fun and only required one button to play.
On May 05 2015 13:39 Slusher wrote: wonder if the Asian players have invaded NA solo q, like during worlds 2 years ago, haven't seen anything yet but wouldn't be surprised
Worlds was over a much longer period with more teams, don't think players have too much time to grind solo queue.
On May 05 2015 06:45 Slusher wrote: Unless it procs q automatically that sounds really bad
The video he posted it's hard to say if you can reliably still get an auto
I've played around with it on the PTR. Autoing isn't a problem really, maybe against a speedy target who doubles back but otherwise it's fine.
The change feels really good, and actually I'm wondering about the E changes. If someone stuns your target you can easily get a second E in at max rank, and the additional damage isn't inconsequential in that case.
I mean there's probably a decent chance that the other world teams have accounts on NA for scrims, but I doubt they'd do solo q games outside of maybe a random normals game to get warmed up before scrims began.
With the MSI approaching I realize that I have little to no knowledge on the current form of AHQ and Beskitas. Do either of them have upset potential? Where are their strong points?
On May 05 2015 16:36 AlreadyHere wrote: With the MSI approaching I realize that I have little to no knowledge on the current form of AHQ and Beskitas. Do either of them have upset potential? Where are their strong points?
Aha has shuffled there roster around since worlds I wouldn't expect either to take any games not even vs fnatic who is much weaker then tsm/edg/skt I think the real question for Msi is tom or benji
On May 05 2015 16:36 AlreadyHere wrote: With the MSI approaching I realize that I have little to no knowledge on the current form of AHQ and Beskitas. Do either of them have upset potential? Where are their strong points?
Aha has shuffled there roster around since worlds I wouldn't expect either to take any games not even vs fnatic who is much weaker then tsm/edg/skt I think the real question for Msi is tom or benji
SKT put out a press release with it being Bengi in the jungle, Easyhoon is the sub they're bringing along.
On May 05 2015 16:36 AlreadyHere wrote: With the MSI approaching I realize that I have little to no knowledge on the current form of AHQ and Beskitas. Do either of them have upset potential? Where are their strong points?
Aha has shuffled there roster around since worlds I wouldn't expect either to take any games not even vs fnatic who is much weaker then tsm/edg/skt I think the real question for Msi is tom or benji
SKT put out a press release with it being Bengi in the jungle, Easyhoon is the sub they're bringing along.
Also if they brought Tom they couldn't do the whole thing where they troll everyone hoping to see Faker match up against other regions' mids and only get the Hoon instead
On May 05 2015 16:36 AlreadyHere wrote: With the MSI approaching I realize that I have little to no knowledge on the current form of AHQ and Beskitas. Do either of them have upset potential? Where are their strong points?
Unless the dude below has more recent info than me (quite possible) I think AHQ circa Katowice was pretty decent
IIRC they pulled off some crazy roster shuffle and ended up winning their version of LCS or w/e
On May 05 2015 08:00 Sonnington wrote: @cLutZ After trying to get my friends into RA3 and failing miserably. Along with a friend of mine basically being bronze/silver tier at SC2 with no hope of improving, I decided it wasn't worth trying to get my friends into these types of games. Try and get her into Mario Party or something simple. I used to play a lot of Burnout Paradise with my friends because showtime mode was super fun and only required one button to play.
On May 05 2015 13:39 Slusher wrote: wonder if the Asian players have invaded NA solo q, like during worlds 2 years ago, haven't seen anything yet but wouldn't be surprised
On May 05 2015 13:39 Slusher wrote: wonder if the Asian players have invaded NA solo q, like during worlds 2 years ago, haven't seen anything yet but wouldn't be surprised
I like to spectate EUW challenger soloQ because so few players stream, but at the moment it is such cancer.
Scripting, drop hacks, ddos everyhwere. I dont even want to know what its like playing in this environment when I am all riled up just from spectating.
Alright guys I now have 20 rune pages and 32 champions.
I need suggestions for weird and exciting runes to fill out my rune pages. I have most of the standard rune pages, but I will happily take any suggestions.
Also if anyone didn't know, there is a 2 for 1 rune page sale going on right now!
On May 06 2015 04:05 Frudgey wrote: Alright guys I now have 20 rune pages and 32 champions.
I need suggestions for weird and exciting runes to fill out my rune pages. I have most of the standard rune pages, but I will happily take any suggestions.
Also if anyone didn't know, there is a 2 for 1 rune page sale going on right now!
Thanks for the heads up on the rune page sale, finally have 20! As for runes to try..
I love scaling CDR blues, 9x + 5% CDR from masteries gives 20% CDR at 18 which is amazing.
20 Magic Pen + armor yellows are something I've toyey.
Check out this table if you want to get some ideas.
I almost always use 3 basic runepages unless it's a really weird exception. Like AP Gangplank where I have mana regen, hybrid pen, and scaling cdr. Or the Sejuani page with scaling cdr and scaling AP. Now that the jungle is a lot easier I've been taking hybrid pen reds and quints on Evelynn.
OH! I started building a full crit damage runepage for Ashe. It's stupid and trolly, but I have IP to burn. It's also super expensive. The reds, blues, and yellows are all 820 and the quints are like 2150 a piece. I was looking at a 28,540 IP runepage. Then they announced the rework...Oh well.
I'm actually spamming games with Bard recently and I have to say he's pretty decent. Those small buffs really helped him, the dmg on Q and autoattack if you collect certain amount of chimes is also nice. The only thing which I don't like THAT much is his beacon heal. Movement speed buffs seems okayish, but mana costs are too high imo.
for me currently, there is no more fun champ to play then the Bard. I really like the presence he got in lane and his ult is soo good to start a gank from your jungler.
Bard got much more fun to me once I discovered maxing E second (R>Q>E>W) rather than W. Outside of laning phase, the reduced CD and increased travel speed are lifesavers.
Played Shen yesterday. Forgot his taunt was nerfed again recently, upon checking, well... when you fight in melee against another champion, if you taunt backwards to try and disengage/drag them with you, it won't hit them. You have to cross them squarely during the dash itself to taunt them.
It sucks and it makes it ridiculously hard to taunt other than offensively or to chase people.
They release champion mastery for North America and comment that it will be released for Europe later today (5+ hours). I don't get why you'd release something for NA first considering the timezone, but calling it 'later today' when you're planning to release at like 11pm+ is so stupid.
On May 07 2015 00:48 sung_moon wrote: Have only played 1 game in the past 3 months because of school, but In general, how do ya'll feel about Ryze rework?
Any reason to build him any different than RoA/Embrace/FH core?
I think Tear sucks on him now, his mana scaling is lower but his AP scaling his higher. Doran's or Flask/Pots into RoA rush have been working out much better for me. FH is still fantastic and Athene's have been doing some serious work too, since you burn through mana at an insanely high rate now during teamfights. It's hilarious how with proper rotations and mana recovery (yay Athene's) he can nearly stay in ult and spam trigger his passive doing prolonged fights with multiple Q's in the air at the same time.
Really really hate his Q's hitbox, it's so silly small.
When I've messed around with Ryze I've had a really hard time adjusting to the Q change. Old habits die hard.
The only thing I can really say though is that his ult's passive is a trap inviting people to wait until level 16 to cap CDR via runes/masteries. Ryze is way better when you're capped before then.
On May 07 2015 00:48 sung_moon wrote: Have only played 1 game in the past 3 months because of school, but In general, how do ya'll feel about Ryze rework?
Any reason to build him any different than RoA/Embrace/FH core?
I think Tear sucks on him now, his mana scaling is lower but his AP scaling his higher. Doran's or Flask/Pots into RoA rush have been working out much better for me. FH is still fantastic and Athene's have been doing some serious work too, since you burn through mana at an insanely high rate now during teamfights. It's hilarious how with proper rotations and mana recovery (yay Athene's) he can nearly stay in ult and spam trigger his passive doing prolonged fights with multiple Q's in the air at the same time.
Really really hate his Q's hitbox, it's so silly small.
On May 07 2015 00:48 sung_moon wrote: Have only played 1 game in the past 3 months because of school, but In general, how do ya'll feel about Ryze rework?
Any reason to build him any different than RoA/Embrace/FH core?
I think Tear sucks on him now, his mana scaling is lower but his AP scaling his higher. Doran's or Flask/Pots into RoA rush have been working out much better for me. FH is still fantastic and Athene's have been doing some serious work too, since you burn through mana at an insanely high rate now during teamfights. It's hilarious how with proper rotations and mana recovery (yay Athene's) he can nearly stay in ult and spam trigger his passive doing prolonged fights with multiple Q's in the air at the same time.
Really really hate his Q's hitbox, it's so silly small.
All the wasted CDR.
Just ignore the CDR stat on items for him, in 99.99% games you want a FH and it overcaps your CDR on it's own eventually and the ultimates strength is it's active anyway.
Basically the same principle as when you need a Morello or buy blue pot on energy/resourceless APs, you get some stats you dont need but the item is still solid.
On May 07 2015 00:48 sung_moon wrote: Have only played 1 game in the past 3 months because of school, but In general, how do ya'll feel about Ryze rework?
Any reason to build him any different than RoA/Embrace/FH core?
I think Tear sucks on him now, his mana scaling is lower but his AP scaling his higher. Doran's or Flask/Pots into RoA rush have been working out much better for me. FH is still fantastic and Athene's have been doing some serious work too, since you burn through mana at an insanely high rate now during teamfights. It's hilarious how with proper rotations and mana recovery (yay Athene's) he can nearly stay in ult and spam trigger his passive doing prolonged fights with multiple Q's in the air at the same time.
Really really hate his Q's hitbox, it's so silly small.
All the wasted CDR.
Just ignore the CDR stat on items for him, in 99.99% games you want a FH and it overcaps your CDR on it's own eventually and the ultimates strength is it's active anyway.
Basically the same principle as when you need a Morello or buy blue pot on energy/resourceless APs, you get some stats you dont need but the item is still solid.
I sort of agree, but building +40% CDR on items is probably overkill, especially if one of the items is Athene's. Tear/AA seems like a much better choice to pair with FH+RoA.
Using extremely conservative numbers (i.e. Ryze at level 11 with a completely unstacked AA) you're looking at 45 additional damage on Q alone for having AA instead of Athene's. At full level/stacks the damage difference goes up to 95 damage, again that's Q alone. You also get an active shield and additional strength on your passive shield.
The only thing Athene's gives that Ryze build that AA doesn't is 25 MR.
I'm all for building some CDR on Ryze since waiting for level 16 to cap isn't worthwhile, but I don't think Athene's makes sense when you've already built RoA and FH.
Bard is super good since his buffs / people starting to use his ult offensively. Xpecial being behind the curve on picks is nothing new, when Blaze first came on to the scene with Graves/Lulu Montecristo asked him why TSM never plays it and he straight up said Lulu was a bad hero.
I'm convinced there's going to be some bard at MSI. Even if he's really awkward to play, his q and r are just seem too strong for some team not to pull him out at least for something cheesy.
plus, he just seems like a champion that would make for fun-to-watch games.
EDIT: also does anyone else feel like MSI is a weird name given that MSI has sponsored high-profile league tournaments in the past?
some people are just really good at the game, and humble enough to take good advice from their support staff on what heros are up and coming, this is my view on xpecial after knowing about early tsm (basically they just would learn whatever strat they got beaten by and just spam it until they got rekt by something else)
the classic, Genja buries them alive with MF, CHaox makes a vlog about how op MF is, and then they played mf every game for like 2 months
this is pre curse of the sad bullet time MF, like, with a cast time on her ult.
On May 07 2015 06:20 Eiii wrote: I'm convinced there's going to be some bard at MSI. Even if he's really awkward to play, his q and r are just seem too strong for some team not to pull him out at least for something cheesy.
plus, he just seems like a champion that would make for fun-to-watch games.
EDIT: also does anyone else feel like MSI is a weird name given that MSI has sponsored high-profile league tournaments in the past?
Yeah, I feel like they made up the name of the tournament and just said fuck it.
My problem with bard is most teams don't really ban supports so unless someone just feels like playing him he just gets outclassed.The unholy cancer trio of janna/thresh/morg is still going strong joined by naut.
Athene's over a tear on Ryze is basically "I think I'll be so far ahead in scaling off my two items that I think I can buy infinite mana to plow you all night instead of having to base." I think it's niche at best.
On May 07 2015 06:37 nafta wrote: My problem with bard is most teams don't really ban supports so unless someone just feels like playing him he just gets outclassed.The unholy cancer trio of janna/thresh/morg is still going strong joined by naut.
Has has some really specific unique strengths over all those other supports, so it's ok if most of the time he isn't picked because they are "generally stronger", he can still fit in a custom made teamcomp and be mega strong.
I still havent broken my 100% lose rate on bard, in lane I feel I get outraded as his mana costs are unbelivable, like old anivia level and he is squishy as fuck. Maxing E second helps but yeah it still becomes trololololol becuase you lost lane so hard
On May 07 2015 07:25 ParadeofMadness wrote: I still havent broken my 100% lose rate on bard, in lane I feel I get outraded as his mana costs are unbelivable, like old anivia level and he is squishy as fuck. Maxing E second helps but yeah it still becomes trololololol becuase you lost lane so hard
Mana's not so bad if you get lucky with chime locations early on in game. His W costs are pretty ridiculous. I almost always prep 1 or 2 heal shrines before I go chime hunting or back.
On May 07 2015 07:25 ParadeofMadness wrote: I still havent broken my 100% lose rate on bard, in lane I feel I get outraded as his mana costs are unbelivable, like old anivia level and he is squishy as fuck. Maxing E second helps but yeah it still becomes trololololol becuase you lost lane so hard
This is kind of how Bard should be though, right? If his power level is ever respectable in soloQ he will necessarily be totally OP in competitive because laneswaps make for better chime gathering, coms make for better magical journey usage, and his ult has a high chance of turning teamfights for his team, or against his team, which would be lessened with good communication.
On May 07 2015 07:25 ParadeofMadness wrote: I still havent broken my 100% lose rate on bard, in lane I feel I get outraded as his mana costs are unbelivable, like old anivia level and he is squishy as fuck. Maxing E second helps but yeah it still becomes trololololol becuase you lost lane so hard
You shouldn't really expect to win lane as bard without a good gank. You just try to keep it pretty even. His Q is much easier to use as a disengage than an engage, and you can win trades like this. I rarely win lane and have a great winrate. Honestly I mostly just use meep auto in lane for the gold generation and to allow you AD a bit of room, if you win a trade thats just extra nice.
You win later because you have absolutely absurd utility, mostly from picking people. If you can catch somone out alone you can ping and ult them, and your team can walk over from like 4000 range and instagib them the second it wears off. Its absolutely broken. This and you give really really great vision control because you are almost impossible to catch with chime speed boost and E. You can waltz all over their jungle and make sure your team is always positioned correctly. Also you wreck dragon fights, hit half their team with ult and kill the other, and E through the back of the pit.
I also advise you build like full tank with FH etc. Bard damage scaling is worthless.
IMO Bard's real strength is his level 1, you should almost always be looking to blow your charges of meeps (as you get around 2 before level 2) at level 1, super powerful imo.
On May 07 2015 08:05 wei2coolman wrote: IMO Bard's real strength is his level 1, you should almost always be looking to blow your charges of meeps (as you get around 2 before level 2) at level 1, super powerful imo.
well, comparatively, but you still aren't going to get much done. Its like a single won trade.
On May 07 2015 08:05 wei2coolman wrote: IMO Bard's real strength is his level 1, you should almost always be looking to blow your charges of meeps (as you get around 2 before level 2) at level 1, super powerful imo.
well, comparatively, but you still aren't going to get much done. Its like a single won trade.
If you shove for early level 2 in conjunction, you can deal with his power trough in levels 2-5 off of a strong level 1 trade. It's a sort of risky way to play, but it's similar to how you play vayne out in lane in solo queue, where you're fairly aggressive in the early levels to prevent getting shat on in lane in the later levels.
So why the hell is Riven seeing nerfs AGAIN on PBE? I don't see her in many games, and the ones I do see her in she's worthless even if she gets a bunch of kills. She isn't a tank buster, nor does she have the burst to kill an ADC or mid laner that is even remotely protected.
I get that she's popular because of "outplay" and "waifu" reasons, but I don't think I've seen her on any high ELO streams outside of boxbox, and that's because he's a (mostly) one-trick champion.
On May 07 2015 10:40 Caiada wrote: She's got a 55% winrate and a 15% pickrate at the high-plat/diamond level. The nerfs are also insanely minor, so.
They seem minor, but they aren't. The only reason she can live/trade (after they gutted her HP/5) is due to her insane mobility and high base move speed. The missile speed change seems minor but now people will have more time to react and flash away or escape on Thresh lantern or Bard tunnel or their own dash/move skill.
Like for me I don't play her anymore top because she simply can't kill anyone pre-6 without ignite. And if you go flash/ignite you are forced into split push mode all game and that's not the strongest thing right now in League of Tanks/Dive. Not to mention that after a certain point, unless she is insanely ahead, has 6 items, or is CDR build, she won't be able to split push against a dedicated tank.
For me, I think the build path on her now has to be Hydra (for waveclear and HP regen) > BC (for the CDR, a tiny bit of tankiness, and the armor shred) > Lucidity (with 5% masteries and BC this gets her 40% CDR) > BT (the shield, lifesteal and flat AD is good) > LW (because armor pen is needed) > GA (to be able to dive and still be useful after the enemy blows you up).
On May 07 2015 10:52 kongoline wrote: because she clearly needs nerfs lol, shes op in soloQ and not played in competitive only because of lane swaps
She's OP in solo Q simply because of one-trick champion players that get wins off her because literally on one remembers how to play against Riven and they see so similar champions in top nowadays that they know how to outplay the opponent. That by itself gets you to high Plat, low Diamond elo, which is where most of her wins come from.
If they want to nerf Riven, the nerf to Wind Slash is enough, no need to remove 5 movespeed. They could also tweak her DPS a bit (adjust her AD ratios on Q a bit).
On May 07 2015 10:52 kongoline wrote: because she clearly needs nerfs lol, shes op in soloQ and not played in competitive only because of lane swaps
And Exhaust, armor stacking because competitive tops know they most likely aren't the carry, because any time she will be meta and a pro puts in the effort to play her at a high enough level she'll just be banned anyway, people actually peeling.
On May 07 2015 10:52 kongoline wrote: because she clearly needs nerfs lol, shes op in soloQ and not played in competitive only because of lane swaps
And Exhaust, armor stacking because competitive tops know they most likely aren't the carry, because any time she will be meta and a pro puts in the effort to play her at a high enough level she'll just be banned anyway, people actually peeling.
Riven has a ton of weaknesses in organized play.
I think the last time Riven saw competitive play it was back in season 3 (specifically Worlds) when Faker took her mid as a counter to Zed mid (because Zed was insanely OP back then, and is just merely ok to semi-op right now due to meta shifts).
On May 07 2015 10:52 kongoline wrote: because she clearly needs nerfs lol, shes op in soloQ and not played in competitive only because of lane swaps
And Exhaust, armor stacking because competitive tops know they most likely aren't the carry, because any time she will be meta and a pro puts in the effort to play her at a high enough level she'll just be banned anyway, people actually peeling.
Riven has a ton of weaknesses in organized play.
I think the last time Riven saw competitive play it was back in season 3 (specifically Worlds) when Faker took her mid as a counter to Zed mid (because Zed was insanely OP back then, and is just merely ok to semi-op right now due to meta shifts).
Last time she was used well, anyway. There was those few games where Shook played her in jungle last year because Alliance would roll people anyway, regardless of the standard bruiser build being put on her, and a Korean jungler(can't remember who) that build her full tank because... cc? idk.
do u really believe 15% of player base who play her are 1 trick ponies? shes often banned and feared in high elo a lot of pro players hate her, i dont really care enough to argue more not like it will change anything riot will do their stuff anyway
On May 07 2015 11:08 kongoline wrote: do u really believe 15% of player base who play her are 1 trick ponies? shes often banned and feared in high elo a lot of pro players hate her, i dont really care enough to argue more not like it will change anything riot will do their stuff anyway
u know that feel when ur lane goes 0-6 combined in 10 minutes then u win cuz u just hooked one guy 45 minutes in at baron and the game just ends that is one serious sexual release
Riven PBE nerfs are merely being floated in the event that SKT wins MSI. As we all know, Faker is undefeated on Riven in competitive play. Cannot risk her becoming viable again if he is involved in international competition
On May 07 2015 11:44 cLutZ wrote: Riven PBE nerfs are merely being floated in the event that SKT wins MSI. As we all know, Faker is undefeated on Riven in competitive play. Cannot risk her becoming viable again if he is involved in international competition
You make it sound as if SKT is going to play Faker.
On May 07 2015 11:44 FinestHour wrote: u know that feel when ur lane goes 0-6 combined in 10 minutes then u win cuz u just hooked one guy 45 minutes in at baron and the game just ends that is one serious sexual release
Team losing the entire game, but I'm Sejuani, 10/1 (with 1 death being me a scrub and dying to Krugs, hue).
Hit the 4 man ult while enemy team is doing a "free baron", sit on their carries faces and tank everything for a good 15 seconds while my team pounds them. Look down, realize that I'm actually at half health after a triple kill. We back, I land ult at inhib turret and we roll into enemy base, take 2 inhibs and win.
tl;dr Sejuani stupid champ, press R to jizz, 1 minute refractory period
On May 07 2015 10:40 Caiada wrote: She's got a 55% winrate and a 15% pickrate at the high-plat/diamond level. The nerfs are also insanely minor, so.
They seem minor, but they aren't. The only reason she can live/trade (after they gutted her HP/5) is due to her insane mobility and high base move speed. The missile speed change seems minor but now people will have more time to react and flash away or escape on Thresh lantern or Bard tunnel or their own dash/move skill.
Like for me I don't play her anymore top because she simply can't kill anyone pre-6 without ignite. And if you go flash/ignite you are forced into split push mode all game and that's not the strongest thing right now in League of Tanks/Dive. Not to mention that after a certain point, unless she is insanely ahead, has 6 items, or is CDR build, she won't be able to split push against a dedicated tank.
For me, I think the build path on her now has to be Hydra (for waveclear and HP regen) > BC (for the CDR, a tiny bit of tankiness, and the armor shred) > Lucidity (with 5% masteries and BC this gets her 40% CDR) > BT (the shield, lifesteal and flat AD is good) > LW (because armor pen is needed) > GA (to be able to dive and still be useful after the enemy blows you up).
Riven's effective Hp5 is higher after the nerf if she trades often/proactively shields damage with the shield base value being increased. The nerf was to stop the so skill-filled pattern of burning E and 1-2 Qs just to get in range of the opponent and then out-trade him anyway while weaving 2 hard cc in. Note that she'll still outtrade most champions if she does that, she'll just take longer to heal the damage she took so it's not as sustainable long-term.
Complaining about Riven's mobility when her mashing Q and E off cooldown, bootless, gives her the equivalent of ~380-390 MS when moving around the map (or, y'know, running away with 10 HP), pretty much immune to slows, with the granted wall-jump. Or her frailty when her passive applies lifesteal, the bonus AD granted by her ult too, her shield has a freakin' bonus AD ratio, everything she does is AoE post-Tiamat and she's the best non-farmed marksman user for the elixir of wrath. Her difficulties about killing peeling for people when during the midgame she only needs to apply 1-2 stack of her passive to kill them, meaning facerolling is literally effective as long as you get in range of someone. Or that she isn't facerolling everything and "only" has a 55% winrate in a meta that's actively detrimental to her.
Really?
Also of course when tanks are popular it's harder for her to get on top of the backline. But hey, Thresh is a much bigger dick to a whole lot of champions (you know Irelia the "can't be cc'd" champion? Yeah), and while you complain about unkillable Sejuani or Gragas you can realise that when they're on your team they can set you up to blow someone up too. Riven has kill potential on almost every champion when she hits 6 with Ignite if they haven't done some major shopping yet, not just "kill potential" but straight-up 100-0, one combo into death potential.
She can't faceroll in this meta because she can't initiate a fight and be a frontliner and a core damage threat at the same time, turns out it's pretty normal for a friggin' assassin. When Kha'Zix did that because ult, everyone agreed he was overtuned, so why would it be weird if Riven has to actually wait for an initiator to give her an opportunity to go in? She's already queen of clean-up, you'd better hope she isn't as godly in straight 5v5s anymore.
Another big change on PBE seems to be Kalista no longer gets increase hop distance when jumping back. Maybe no one cares about that because it makes too much sense.
On May 07 2015 18:37 JazzVortical wrote: Wind Slash is insanely fast...
Another big change on PBE seems to be Kalista no longer gets increase hop distance when jumping back. Maybe no one cares about that because it makes too much sense.
Well, since she's strong in solo and competitive people aren't surprised she's getting changed. Unlike the Wind Slash change, the back hop change is also easy for most people to understand the impact.
On May 07 2015 20:59 kongoline wrote: i wish riot reverted jarvans armor nerf he feels so weak now, also they released reksi which makes him look like a joke in comparison
Max W 2nd now. The increased shield strength makes up for the lack of armor. The AS and moderate damage on E isn't worth it.
Get a pull. Even Nautilus can get to level 4 without any pull at all (and with MS quints), although he'll likely be too low to gank (can prob blow a flash though), and you'll feel miserable and slow (as in you're still finishing your red buff while your mid is getting ganked). Killing crab easier. And I need a jungler that can gank at level 3. Olaf has no peeling so risky against current popular stuff. Udyr outscaled too hard (I wanna play him but I doubt I can make him a staple). I guess I gotta see how often Gragas ends up banned and persevere.
i played nocturne past few days and so far he seems pretty good, the thing i like he has very little mana problems, his clear speed is good and with red smite can duel most junglers doesnt take it in the butt vs reksi etc like most non meta junglers , recent buffs to R cd are also nice
You've got decent AS and a very good auto animation (at least on the passive), can't you do a bit of kiting? Try starting either Gromp or Krugs to see which buff reduces the damage taken most, and unless you have Smite focus the small monsters first, as your lack of AoE means they'll do a lot of damage if you leave them for last. I think you can reduce damage taken further by using EQ to cc the big monster when he starts an auto instead of to start the camp?
So I haven't bought RP in over a year, but I just purchased Ziggs and Master Arcanist Ziggs because it looks so cool that I couldn't resist. Now to become the Ziggs main whose name echoes through the lands.
On May 09 2015 00:04 RagequitBM wrote: So I haven't bought RP in over a year, but I just purchased Ziggs and Master Arcanist Ziggs because it looks so cool that I couldn't resist. Now to become the Ziggs main whose name echoes through the lands.
On May 09 2015 00:04 RagequitBM wrote: So I haven't bought RP in over a year, but I just purchased Ziggs and Master Arcanist Ziggs because it looks so cool that I couldn't resist. Now to become the Ziggs main whose name echoes through the lands.
So I guess that means the store isn't broken... the last two days I couldn't log into the store at all. It's just a black screen.
Just played Diana and it seemed like I couldn't get a double ult off, or my ult somehow wouldn't refresh when hitting a target marked by Q. Did they add an undocumented internal cd on R? Apparently I couldn't cast it again before a short time before I could use it again, as if the cd refresh wasn't immediate, or refreshed it to 1 second. But I don't remember the patch notes ever mentioning it.
On May 09 2015 04:16 Alaric wrote: Just played Diana and it seemed like I couldn't get a double ult off, or my ult somehow wouldn't refresh when hitting a target marked by Q. Did they add an undocumented internal cd on R? Apparently I couldn't cast it again before a short time before I could use it again, as if the cd refresh wasn't immediate, or refreshed it to 1 second. But I don't remember the patch notes ever mentioning it.
Diana's R has a miniscule cooldown on "resets", always been like that.
Yeah but I remember sometimes screwing up and blowing both R back-to-back rather easily (a bit like how if you hold Q pressed with Fiora she'll use both dashes), and here I had the opposite issue, I couldn't do it without waiting at least a second between Rs, that's why I was wondering.
Also Fiddle support is so much weaker when you have to auto/cast to apply your passive and Riot destroyed E's mechanics with the "actively avoid bouncing back to someone already affected" part. ;_; So hard to be a man without just dying in their face now.
I didn't see all the TSM games, but from the ones I did see it seemed like Dyrus was feeding or getting ganked non-stop, Santorin was non-existent on the map and didn't provide any early game pressure, and Wildturtle looked like he didn't even know what country he was in. Bjerg and Lustboy seemed to be fine/decent/trying to carry but couldn't. Is that about right?
I didn't see all the TSM games, but from the ones I did see it seemed like Dyrus was feeding or getting ganked non-stop, Santorin was non-existent on the map and didn't provide any early game pressure, and Wildturtle looked like he didn't even know what country he was in. Bjerg and Lustboy seemed to be fine/decent/trying to carry but couldn't. Is that about right?
Almost correct, Bjerg picked safe farm champion with no play potencial and jacked in lane the entire games, so while his cs looks decent on paper, he had no impact in game. tsm botlane was far from decent too, really poor performance, but not as bad as the other guys i guess
I didn't see all the TSM games, but from the ones I did see it seemed like Dyrus was feeding or getting ganked non-stop, Santorin was non-existent on the map and didn't provide any early game pressure, and Wildturtle looked like he didn't even know what country he was in. Bjerg and Lustboy seemed to be fine/decent/trying to carry but couldn't. Is that about right?
bjergsen pussied out with his picks with exception of urgot mid. lustboy couldn't land a thresh hook to save his life. but other than that, yes you're right.
I didn't see all the TSM games, but from the ones I did see it seemed like Dyrus was feeding or getting ganked non-stop, Santorin was non-existent on the map and didn't provide any early game pressure, and Wildturtle looked like he didn't even know what country he was in. Bjerg and Lustboy seemed to be fine/decent/trying to carry but couldn't. Is that about right?
Almost correct, Bjerg picked safe farm champion with no play potencial and jacked in lane the entire games, so while his cs looks decent on paper, he had no impact in game. tsm botlane was far from decent too, really poor performance, but not as bad as the other guys i guess
I mean bjerg wasn't gonna make plays either way, westdoor picked cho and went ham on skt. They say don't hate the player but bjerg dropped the ball pretty bad this tourney. Even on urgot he didn't make anything happen.
last night I could log in to play, and could chat in game, but was never able to connect to out of game chat (champion selected and end game screen) so I think something was up with the NA servers
Goddamn it when will Riot fix their client? Its bad enough that they can do a 5 man solo queue just from changing a file. Its bad enough that you can pay off the opponent to feed or just straight afk
Now you can do a fucking 6 man solo queue, guaranteeing the opponents to NOT be the 5 man soloq type and basically combining the two above methods.
On May 09 2015 22:25 padfoota wrote: Goddamn it when will Riot fix their client? Its bad enough that they can do a 5 man solo queue just from changing a file. Its bad enough that you can pay off the opponent to feed or just straight afk
Now you can do a fucking 6 man solo queue, guaranteeing the opponents to NOT be the 5 man soloq type and basically combining the two above methods.
On May 10 2015 02:46 kongoline wrote: i always wonder is bladed armor worth it, are there any tests how good is it?
I think so. How can it not be on a jungler it's like 6dps for 600 health monsters right?
The damage reduction from monsters is worth it, but I'm not sure about bladed armor. That takes a point out of a lot of more valuable masteries further down the tree.
On May 10 2015 02:46 kongoline wrote: i always wonder is bladed armor worth it, are there any tests how good is it?
I think so. How can it not be on a jungler it's like 6dps for 600 health monsters right?
The damage reduction from monsters is worth it, but I'm not sure about bladed armor. That takes a point out of a lot of more valuable masteries further down the tree.
I take it on slow tanks like Nunu/Sion but don't on anyone else.
On May 10 2015 02:46 kongoline wrote: i always wonder is bladed armor worth it, are there any tests how good is it?
I think so. How can it not be on a jungler it's like 6dps for 600 health monsters right?
The damage reduction from monsters is worth it, but I'm not sure about bladed armor. That takes a point out of a lot of more valuable masteries further down the tree.
Not really. In the jungle Block is pretty garbage so you're probably taking 2 in Recovery or Enchanted Armor to go with Tough Skin. 3/3 in Veteran scars puts you at 7. To get to the 9th point in Juggernaught your options for 8 are ranks 1 in the non-Block Tier 1 option you didn't take. 1%/sec to monsters is far better.
I didn't see all the TSM games, but from the ones I did see it seemed like Dyrus was feeding or getting ganked non-stop, Santorin was non-existent on the map and didn't provide any early game pressure, and Wildturtle looked like he didn't even know what country he was in. Bjerg and Lustboy seemed to be fine/decent/trying to carry but couldn't. Is that about right?
Almost correct, Bjerg picked safe farm champion with no play potencial and jacked in lane the entire games, so while his cs looks decent on paper, he had no impact in game. tsm botlane was far from decent too, really poor performance, but not as bad as the other guys i guess
I mean bjerg wasn't gonna make plays either way, westdoor picked cho and went ham on skt. They say don't hate the player but bjerg dropped the ball pretty bad this tourney. Even on urgot he didn't make anything happen.
On May 10 2015 02:46 kongoline wrote: i always wonder is bladed armor worth it, are there any tests how good is it?
I think so. How can it not be on a jungler it's like 6dps for 600 health monsters right?
The damage reduction from monsters is worth it, but I'm not sure about bladed armor. That takes a point out of a lot of more valuable masteries further down the tree.
Not really. In the jungle Block is pretty garbage so you're probably taking 2 in Recovery or Enchanted Armor to go with Tough Skin. 3/3 in Veteran scars puts you at 7. To get to the 9th point in Juggernaught your options for 8 are ranks 1 in the non-Block Tier 1 option you didn't take. 1%/sec to monsters is far better.
If you're playing such a weak jungle champion that you cannot afford Unyielding you should play something else.
On May 10 2015 02:46 kongoline wrote: i always wonder is bladed armor worth it, are there any tests how good is it?
I think so. How can it not be on a jungler it's like 6dps for 600 health monsters right?
The damage reduction from monsters is worth it, but I'm not sure about bladed armor. That takes a point out of a lot of more valuable masteries further down the tree.
Not really. In the jungle Block is pretty garbage so you're probably taking 2 in Recovery or Enchanted Armor to go with Tough Skin. 3/3 in Veteran scars puts you at 7. To get to the 9th point in Juggernaught your options for 8 are ranks 1 in the non-Block Tier 1 option you didn't take. 1%/sec to monsters is far better.
If you're playing such a weak jungle champion that you cannot afford Unyielding you should play something else.
On May 10 2015 02:46 kongoline wrote: i always wonder is bladed armor worth it, are there any tests how good is it?
I think so. How can it not be on a jungler it's like 6dps for 600 health monsters right?
The damage reduction from monsters is worth it, but I'm not sure about bladed armor. That takes a point out of a lot of more valuable masteries further down the tree.
Not really. In the jungle Block is pretty garbage so you're probably taking 2 in Recovery or Enchanted Armor to go with Tough Skin. 3/3 in Veteran scars puts you at 7. To get to the 9th point in Juggernaught your options for 8 are ranks 1 in the non-Block Tier 1 option you didn't take. 1%/sec to monsters is far better.
If you're playing such a weak jungle champion that you cannot afford Unyielding you should play something else.
Sorry for taking things that are useful.
You're spending the points on things that either doesn't really matter (recovery) for junglers or something that takes a hour and a half to be better than unyielding.
why do you have such a hardon for unyielding wtf? its only useful for teamfights you take a lot more damage from jungle and its not you are in many fights where you didnt take previous jungle damage
On May 10 2015 02:46 kongoline wrote: i always wonder is bladed armor worth it, are there any tests how good is it?
I think so. How can it not be on a jungler it's like 6dps for 600 health monsters right?
The damage reduction from monsters is worth it, but I'm not sure about bladed armor. That takes a point out of a lot of more valuable masteries further down the tree.
Not really. In the jungle Block is pretty garbage so you're probably taking 2 in Recovery or Enchanted Armor to go with Tough Skin. 3/3 in Veteran scars puts you at 7. To get to the 9th point in Juggernaught your options for 8 are ranks 1 in the non-Block Tier 1 option you didn't take. 1%/sec to monsters is far better.
If you're playing such a weak jungle champion that you cannot afford Unyielding you should play something else.
Sorry for taking things that are useful.
You're spending the points on things that either doesn't really matter (recovery) for junglers or something that takes a hour and a half to be better than unyielding.
Unyielding doesn't really matter outside of lane, where you won't be as a jungler.
wtf are you talking about? enchanted armour is way better unyielding sucks when you jungle it doesnt matter until 40 minutes anyway when enchanted armour is miles ahead
unyielding has zero value nearly as a jungle while recovery is good early and enchanted later
On May 10 2015 06:59 Slayer91 wrote: wtf are you talking about? enchanted armour is way better unyielding sucks when you jungle it doesnt matter until 40 minutes anyway when enchanted armour is miles ahead
yes but in 1 minute recovery saves you 24 hp which means unless you take damage 13 times in that one fight its worse and recovery is a fairly weak mastery and 1 min is only average case for it
I mean an extra -1 damage from auto attacks zzz no use nitpicking its weaker in every case except one that you get wildly auto attacked early on where you dont have that much hp anyway so you'd have to find someone who wildly autoattacks and doesnt do much damage
Let's say you gank once every minute, which nobody does. That's 12 HP from recovery. Its more effective HP because that is then multiplied by your resists,so I'd really go more like 15.
In order for unyielding to be better than that, in every one of these ganks you're doing every single minute you have to take 16 autos from champions, assuming the actual gank lasts less than 5 seconds.
Hey guys, I've been playing some Cho'Gath recently and I'd like some build ideas.
I've been doing Sorcerer Shoes, Rod of Ages, Zhyonas Hourglass, Abyssal Scepter, Deathcap and Frozen Heart, but something tells me that I could be doing something much smarter. I also think that I should change it up depending on my match up.
Speaking of match ups, what does Cho'Gath do well against and what does he struggle against?
Also is he better in the mid lane or the top lane?
Avoid ROA, you shouldn't need the mana, and resists are better for Cho b/c feast. Also start Morlleo (mostly) because CDR is really good for him. Frozen heart is probably a lategame item, if at all.
Cho mid has very few bad matchups, the only thing that keeps him from being a top pick is his long CDs on his spells and his immobility. I see him do well vs squishy shorter range mages like Cassio, LB, and Ahri but fall short vs control long range mages like Ziggs, Azir, Xerath. Vs AD matchups I believe he does a bit better as he can itemize some early armor with Seekers Armguard and can burst melee champs with Ignite+Feast
On May 10 2015 14:09 MooMooMugi wrote: Cho mid has very few bad matchups, the only thing that keeps him from being a top pick is his long CDs on his spells and his immobility. I see him do well vs squishy mages like Cassio, LB, and Ahri but fall short vs control long range mages like Ziggs, Azir, Xerath. Vs AD matchups I believe he does a bit better as he can itemize some early armor with Seekers Armguard and can burst melee champs with Ignite+Feast
Not to mention his AOE silence is a tool that not many champions can bring to the table.
What I think Jek's point is and which I agree with is that there are a lot of situations where the difference made by Recovery early on is not an amount that breaks the deal between 'gank' or 'not gank', which makes it pretty much useless, whereas Unyielding is always going to get you something. Obviously the hp regen mastery is gonna regen you more hp, but on a lot of junglers and particularly on the stronger ones picking Unyielding is gonna gain you more over the course of a game.
On May 10 2015 14:36 Kaethis wrote: What I think Jek's point is and which I agree with is that there are a lot of situations where the difference made by Recovery early on is not an amount that breaks the deal between 'gank' or 'not gank', which makes it pretty much useless, whereas Unyielding is always going to get you something. Obviously the hp regen mastery is gonna regen you more hp, but on a lot of junglers and particularly on the stronger ones picking Unyielding is gonna gain you more over the course of a game.
what? why would 24 hp make a difference between a gank and a not gank but then 24 hp makes a difference in a teamfight? but recovery gives you hp in teamfights too. Unless you still full hp at all points meaning you dont farm at all any time near a teamfight and dont get poked then recovery is still as good as unyielding.
in any case on junglers people take bladed armour and enchanted armour so they dont even get recovery
Cho's HP pool is actually quite low without Feast (not even 2K HP at level 18), to make up for it.
That's the case of a bunch of people with steroids, with a notable exception being Shyvana (12th natural armour at level 1, 3rd behind Sejuani and Graves if steroids are taken into account; middle of the pack @18 but less than 2 armour away from the top 30%, and she's only behind Sejuani if you add passives (even Jayce's stupid high melee steroid doesn't reach her); it all goes through the window when she gets in dragon form). HP-wise she's ~15th at level 1 and 11th (with only 85 HP differential between the 2nd and her) despite her huge-ass resistances.
Interestingly enough, Jayce isn't that far behind. When he's in melee form he has top 5 armour and the highest MR in the game, along with a top 15 HP pool (less than 200 HP away from the 2nd). Combine that with lifesteal and W and it's not surprise he can be so hard to kill even "without" tankiness.
but unyielding works after armor/mr and apparently procs vs DoTs on every tick which is pretty big considering most junglers are melee and reduce 2 dmg
On May 10 2015 19:36 kongoline wrote: but unyielding works after armor/mr and apparently procs vs DoTs on every tick which is pretty big considering most junglers are melee and reduce 2 dmg
its only 5% of BONUS armor and as a jungler u get meaningful armor pretty late plus u would have to sacrifice both block and unyielding to get it which seems like a huge loss in duelling power early/mid game
I don't think its a huge loss in duelling power early/mid game.
Do you have examples or math to back that up? Also, what's the mastery point you're sacrificing for unyielding, so we can compare 3 points vs 3 instead of 3 vs 2.
you are still sacrificing 2 points which wont do jack shit till the very late game where u gain maybe 10 armor from it and thats assuming u go full tank which i often dont
On May 10 2015 20:01 kongoline wrote: you are still sacrificing 2 points which wont do jack shit till the very late game where u gain maybe 10 armor from it and thats assuming u go full tank which i often dont
Really? Because I'm pretty sure most junglers take armor seals, so they're getting something from it right from level 1.
Somebody humor me and do a couple first jungle clears on a champion, one with block and one with enchanted armor, and tell me the HP difference.
u get 9 armor from seals 5% from it isnt even 1 extra armor lol, theres a reason no pro jungler ever takes it unless you are going 9/21 then you are free to take it
There's a reason why pro junglers don't take bladed armor and buy sightstone and trailblazer on every champion too. Its because they're playing professional games that are absolutely nothing like the sort of jungle games that you might be playing in, and have nothing at all to do with any sort of "what mastery is better" discussion in GD.
in this case soloQ or competitive is irrelevant you dont have to be rocket scientist to see enchanted armor blows(unless u play something like rammus with huge bonus armor/mr) and only provides meaningful amount of stats super late game besides they use those masteries while laddering too, most of the time i can judge which mastery is better but it is hard to compare value of unyielding vs bladed armor. guess i will just stick on using it only on AoE clearers like malph or amumu and skip it on heavy early game gankers/duelists
As for pro players I usually check masteries/runes only of top korean teams cuz i trust they actually test their stuff with coaches and do the math, like they were one of the first to use expose weakness on everyone when it was bugged and it took few weeks before western pro players started copying them
On May 10 2015 20:44 kongoline wrote: in this case soloQ or competitive is irrelevant you dont have to be rocket scientist to see enchanted armor blows(unless u play something like rammus with huge bonus armor/mr) and only provides meaningful amount of stats super late game besides they use those masteries while laddering too, most of the time i can judge which mastery is better but it is hard to compare value of unyielding vs bladed armor. guess i will just stick on using it only on AoE clearers like malph or amumu and skip it on heavy early game gankers/duelists
As for pro players I usually check masteries/runes only of top korean teams cuz i trust they actually test their stuff with coaches and do the math, like they were one of the first to use expose weakness on everyone when it was bugged and it took few weeks before western pro players started copying them
And exposed weakness got fixed and there's still Koreans using it. zzzz
idk a lot of them stopped using it, besides its not like its bad now just not must pick on everyone anymore, for example faker stopped using it for a while and now hes back with it which makes sense considering there so much action and skirmishes in the midlane nowadays it would be stupid to ignore extra 1% for ur teammate
Bladed armour would be ok if it actually killed monsters, but it doesn't cause then people might lose their blue buffs to their jungler /crymeariver. As it is now it literally never makes a difference in how fast you kill monsters because you still need to auto them.
On the Unyielding/Recovery discussion:
You have a few choices if you're going down the defense tree. First off is getting Block/Unyielding. Unyielding reduces all incoming damage by 2 (for melee), which is insane when you think about it. If this gained you 200 hp or more per fight midgame I wouldn't be suprised considering how much random damage you take from shit like cinderhulk and random aoe flying by. Block is not nearly as good but still very relevant. The thing about these talents is that, sure, they don't help you all that much when Jinx is autoattacking you for 600 but it does help against janna who's just randomly whacking you because she might as well.
Tough Skin is probably the next best option in these two tiers for junglers (I'm assuming Vereran's Scars are mandatory), but if you can clear the jungle on high hp anyhow I can see dropping this too (warwick comes to mind). Overall this will most likely give you the highest amount of effective hp back over a game.
Bladed armor's shit.
Enchanted Armour's great if you have a lot of armour or have other % defense steroids (because they stack multiplicatively). Otherwise, meh. Junglers oftentimes get cinderhulk or warrior into some other hp item like Glory or something like hexdrinker, which means the talent doesn't do much for you untill 3 items in, at which point most games will be over. Overall, generally better left to toplaners.
Recovery gives you 1/2 hp per 5. That's ok, but less good then Tough Skin will be for jungling and less good then Block would be for fights. Considering you probably don't want to spend more points on these two tiers then you need to, I just don't see the reason. You're picking this over Tough Skin or Block, and if you're picking it over Block you're also locking yourself out of unyielding (which is most likely the single most efficient point in the defense tree hp wise).
So overall you can pick:
All fighting: Block/Unyielding with Enchanted Armour or Recovery. All jungling: Recovery with Tough Skin, leaving you with a point hanging. for Block or Bladed armor, but awkward. mix: Block/unyielding with Tough Skin is most likely most efficient.
Overall, you don't want to spend too much here and Unyielding is crazy good, so I don't see the reason to get recovery, because Tough Skin gets you more while jungling and Block gets you more later on.
On May 10 2015 11:28 Ketara wrote: Jek you are so fucking wrong.
Let's say you gank once every minute, which nobody does. That's 12 HP from recovery. Its more effective HP because that is then multiplied by your resists,so I'd really go more like 15.
In order for unyielding to be better than that, in every one of these ganks you're doing every single minute you have to take 16 autos from champions, assuming the actual gank lasts less than 5 seconds.
In what world do you take 16 autos in a gank?
Stop being so wrong please.
Block and Unyielding both works post resists, so there's no reason to consider the healed HP as more EHP that what is getting blocked - unless you're being hit by true damage of course. Unyielding/Block will block off 4 damage on an auto attack and 2 from an ability, which means it comes down to 6 autos and even less if you count the abilities you will be hit by.
Every single jungler on Probuilds.net take Unyielding, and it lists soloQ games - so the whole competetive vs soloQ argument doesn't really hold (which I'd also like to add to the quote below).
So they'd be "so fucking wrong" too I suppose.
On May 10 2015 20:22 Ketara wrote: There's a reason why pro junglers don't take bladed armor and buy sightstone and trailblazer on every champion too. Its because they're playing professional games that are absolutely nothing like the sort of jungle games that you might be playing in, and have nothing at all to do with any sort of "what mastery is better" discussion in GD.
If you're considering to take Enchanted Armor since you took Bladed Armor or whatever, you're better off taking Block since it's actually useful early game as it works off all damage types and not just the ones you've managed to get high enough to actually gain a single bonus armor/MR point from while it still scales indirectly off armor/MR as it reduce damage post resists.
On May 10 2015 19:57 Ketara wrote: I don't think its a huge loss in duelling power early/mid game.
Do you have examples or math to back that up? Also, what's the mastery point you're sacrificing for unyielding, so we can compare 3 points vs 3 instead of 3 vs 2.
The standard is 2 block, 2 tough skin into unyielding and the obvious health boni.
Enchanted Armor is absolutely trash until you're like 40+ minutes into the game, Recovery is sort of the only of the two choices you can compare to Block/Unyielding. Block/Unyielding will net you a lot more than what you've recovered from Recovery extremely fast (even if we ignore dot damage, in which case there'd be absolutely no comparison), while still having an actually meaningful scaling to boot.
On May 10 2015 22:26 Ketara wrote: Oh my god, kaethis said bladed armor doesn't make you kill jungle monsters faster.
I need to get the fuck out of GD before my cancer becomes terminal.
whether true or not for all junglers in all situations, I'm sure you can admit that there does exist a breakpoint for a situation where 1 spell plus 6 auto attacks clears minion X, with and without bladed armor, resulting in no net gain to your clear speed vs minion X. The difference in bladed vs no bladed being gobbled up by your last auto attack. maybe without bladed armor, your 50 damage auto attack kills a 48 HP minion, and with it, your 50 damage auto attack kills a 16 HP minion. You did not clear faster. breakpoints.
While you guys are debating the marginal difference over Bladed Armor / Unyielding, I am just sitting here gaining free Elo with Nunu and not care about minor mastery differences.
On May 11 2015 03:25 Sufficiency wrote: While you guys are debating the marginal difference over Bladed Armor / Unyielding, I am just sitting here gaining free Elo with Nunu and not care about minor mastery differences.
I can't win with Nunu, something about picking the champion makes my sololanes die 1v1/2v2 within 3 minutes of the game.
On May 10 2015 22:26 Ketara wrote: Oh my god, kaethis said bladed armor doesn't make you kill jungle monsters faster.
I need to get the fuck out of GD before my cancer becomes terminal.
whether true or not for all junglers in all situations, I'm sure you can admit that there does exist a breakpoint for a situation where 1 spell plus 6 auto attacks clears minion X, with and without bladed armor, resulting in no net gain to your clear speed vs minion X. The difference in bladed vs no bladed being gobbled up by your last auto attack. maybe without bladed armor, your 50 damage auto attack kills a 48 HP minion, and with it, your 50 damage auto attack kills a 16 HP minion. You did not clear faster. breakpoints.
By that logic no masteries make you clear faster. Bladed armor has the highest dps/point of investment of any mastery. So if anything is going to make you clear faster it's that.
On May 10 2015 22:26 Ketara wrote: Oh my god, kaethis said bladed armor doesn't make you kill jungle monsters faster.
I need to get the fuck out of GD before my cancer becomes terminal.
whether true or not for all junglers in all situations, I'm sure you can admit that there does exist a breakpoint for a situation where 1 spell plus 6 auto attacks clears minion X, with and without bladed armor, resulting in no net gain to your clear speed vs minion X. The difference in bladed vs no bladed being gobbled up by your last auto attack. maybe without bladed armor, your 50 damage auto attack kills a 48 HP minion, and with it, your 50 damage auto attack kills a 16 HP minion. You did not clear faster. breakpoints.
There's a big difference between "It might not help at X time with Y items and Z spells." but to say outright that it doesn't help at all is stupid.
On May 11 2015 03:25 Sufficiency wrote: While you guys are debating the marginal difference over Bladed Armor / Unyielding, I am just sitting here gaining free Elo with Nunu and not care about minor mastery differences.
I can't win with Nunu, something about picking the champion makes my sololanes die 1v1/2v2 within 3 minutes of the game.
What is the general opinion on starting relic shield on ranged supports with a Kallista adc? I think FotM is the most useful support item mid/lategame (because you have junglers/toplaners with rightous glory anyway) and the relic regen is very nice to have. With Kallista you have an execute anyway so there is no disadvantage in being ranged. So why not just go Janna with FotM for even more shields?
So how good is the new Black Cleaver for busting tanks?
I'm asking because I'm considering alternatives for itemization against tanks in the top lane. I was laning against a Maokai as Darius and I was literally beating on him for so long that he went oom before he ran out of health.
On May 10 2015 22:26 Ketara wrote: Oh my god, kaethis said bladed armor doesn't make you kill jungle monsters faster.
I need to get the fuck out of GD before my cancer becomes terminal.
whether true or not for all junglers in all situations, I'm sure you can admit that there does exist a breakpoint for a situation where 1 spell plus 6 auto attacks clears minion X, with and without bladed armor, resulting in no net gain to your clear speed vs minion X. The difference in bladed vs no bladed being gobbled up by your last auto attack. maybe without bladed armor, your 50 damage auto attack kills a 48 HP minion, and with it, your 50 damage auto attack kills a 16 HP minion. You did not clear faster. breakpoints.
Indeed. There are junglers where it does make a difference, like Mundo/Amumu or other junglers which have aoe abilities, but for most of them it will not do anything or barely anything. Probably wrong to say it does completely nothing but it's close enough that I don't bother ever getting it.
On May 11 2015 08:16 Frudgey wrote: So how good is the new Black Cleaver for busting tanks?
I'm asking because I'm considering alternatives for itemization against tanks in the top lane. I was laning against a Maokai as Darius and I was literally beating on him for so long that he went oom before he ran out of health.
It was a long laning phase.
Better than the old one because of an additional passive stack, much better build up to duke it out.
On May 10 2015 22:26 Ketara wrote: Oh my god, kaethis said bladed armor doesn't make you kill jungle monsters faster.
I need to get the fuck out of GD before my cancer becomes terminal.
whether true or not for all junglers in all situations, I'm sure you can admit that there does exist a breakpoint for a situation where 1 spell plus 6 auto attacks clears minion X, with and without bladed armor, resulting in no net gain to your clear speed vs minion X. The difference in bladed vs no bladed being gobbled up by your last auto attack. maybe without bladed armor, your 50 damage auto attack kills a 48 HP minion, and with it, your 50 damage auto attack kills a 16 HP minion. You did not clear faster. breakpoints.
Apparently on TL somebody can say that the mastery that has the biggest effect on your clear speed does "literally nothing", when that can be proven false in 5 minutes in a solo custom game, and instead of being warned for spreading blatantly wrong information / unjustified game theory / whatever you want to call it, the strategy forum mod defends them.
On May 10 2015 22:26 Ketara wrote: Oh my god, kaethis said bladed armor doesn't make you kill jungle monsters faster.
I need to get the fuck out of GD before my cancer becomes terminal.
whether true or not for all junglers in all situations, I'm sure you can admit that there does exist a breakpoint for a situation where 1 spell plus 6 auto attacks clears minion X, with and without bladed armor, resulting in no net gain to your clear speed vs minion X. The difference in bladed vs no bladed being gobbled up by your last auto attack. maybe without bladed armor, your 50 damage auto attack kills a 48 HP minion, and with it, your 50 damage auto attack kills a 16 HP minion. You did not clear faster. breakpoints.
Apparently on TL somebody can say that the mastery that has the biggest effect on your clear speed does "literally nothing", when that can be proven false in 5 minutes in a solo custom game, and instead of being warned for spreading blatantly wrong information / unjustified game theory / whatever you want to call it, the strategy forum mod defends them.
Talisman lets you run away from Glory initiations though. But it doesn't go well with every comp, and if you're running Kalista you probably don't look for a coin user/disengage with Talisman, yeah.
On May 10 2015 22:26 Ketara wrote: Oh my god, kaethis said bladed armor doesn't make you kill jungle monsters faster.
I need to get the fuck out of GD before my cancer becomes terminal.
whether true or not for all junglers in all situations, I'm sure you can admit that there does exist a breakpoint for a situation where 1 spell plus 6 auto attacks clears minion X, with and without bladed armor, resulting in no net gain to your clear speed vs minion X. The difference in bladed vs no bladed being gobbled up by your last auto attack. maybe without bladed armor, your 50 damage auto attack kills a 48 HP minion, and with it, your 50 damage auto attack kills a 16 HP minion. You did not clear faster. breakpoints.
Apparently on TL somebody can say that the mastery that has the biggest effect on your clear speed does "literally nothing", when that can be proven false in 5 minutes in a solo custom game, and instead of being warned for spreading blatantly wrong information / unjustified game theory / whatever you want to call it, the strategy forum mod defends them.
Good shit.
? He's right.
Can yous top making super whiny posts in GD everytime someone disagrees with you?
On May 10 2015 22:26 Ketara wrote: Oh my god, kaethis said bladed armor doesn't make you kill jungle monsters faster.
I need to get the fuck out of GD before my cancer becomes terminal.
whether true or not for all junglers in all situations, I'm sure you can admit that there does exist a breakpoint for a situation where 1 spell plus 6 auto attacks clears minion X, with and without bladed armor, resulting in no net gain to your clear speed vs minion X. The difference in bladed vs no bladed being gobbled up by your last auto attack. maybe without bladed armor, your 50 damage auto attack kills a 48 HP minion, and with it, your 50 damage auto attack kills a 16 HP minion. You did not clear faster. breakpoints.
Apparently on TL somebody can say that the mastery that has the biggest effect on your clear speed does "literally nothing", when that can be proven false in 5 minutes in a solo custom game, and instead of being warned for spreading blatantly wrong information / unjustified game theory / whatever you want to call it, the strategy forum mod defends them.
Good shit.
Ketara, if you can go ahead and find my post where I say Bladed Armor does nothing, then I'll own up and admit that I was wrong about my statement and you can continue with your whining.
But if you can't, then I suggest you please stop posting for now.
It's pretty clear that Ket is a bit worked up because he's being forced to debate with blind acceptance. I know I've grown to look at champ flair and not read account name in the past(which by the way is amusing when two Garens are debating something from opposite sides of the table and I have mental whiplash) and I'm fairly certain he saw the Rammus icon and just made and honest mistake.
just for clarity, I also didn't take the position that it does nothing.
I was suggesting it doesn't always do something(in response to an exasperated ketara whose mind was literally blown that someone could suggest it doesn't help). there is a difference.
Also because he (and I) were warned/banned for saying something with factual and empirical supporting backing because c sheep didnt like it. But here someone says something utterly ridiculous and verifiable without testing or verifying and there is no such similar response.
I read the entire conversation and Ketara, I don't see why you're so upset. Kaethis clearly outlines what he thinks about the 9 points in defense and the arguments are solid and sound. Block/unyielding are very strong and useful during all times of the game. There may have been some exaggeration in saying bladed armor doesn't make ANY difference at all, but there's no need to get worked up over someone using hyperbole. Everyone knows Bladed Armor will help you clear a tad faster, but whether or not that's significant who knows? And is it worth not taking a point in unyielding? That's what the post was trying to outline.
Now Ketara, I highly suggest you take a break and calm down before you post again. There's no need to jump and say GD is giving you cancer the moment someone proposes an argument that counters yours. That's not how you handle disagreements.
On May 11 2015 10:16 ItsFunToLose wrote: just for clarity, I also didn't take the position that it does nothing.
I was suggesting it doesn't always do something(in response to an exasperated ketara whose mind was literally blown that someone could suggest it doesn't help). there is a difference.
Because, quite simply, it provides the highest average dps of any mastery. for a given dps increase there are two axis on which you can trade off. You can consistently give a low effect and have no effect with no probability. And you can unreliably give a large effect and have no effect much of the time. As dps increases the consistency of the duration of the effect must increase.
Blades armor gives the highest dps of any mastery such, for a given consistency it must have the highest effect or for a given effect it must have the highest consistency.
Basically your statement is like saying "smite doesn't help clear the jungle because sometimes you won't use it on a jungle monster". Or "smite doesn't help clear the jungle because you clear a camp within its Cooldown". Both of which are dumb. The times you do use it it has a massive effect and overall it has the biggest effect, even if it didn't help you on that one camp you just did.
Edit: quite simply even if it doesn't help you on that one camp you just did it still helped you get to that camp faster, which is the same thing.
On May 11 2015 10:25 Lost My Will To Live wrote: I read the entire conversation and Ketara, I don't see why you're so upset. Kaethis clearly outlines what he thinks about the 9 points in defense and the arguments are solid and sound. Block/unyielding are very strong and useful during all times of the game. There may have been some exaggeration in saying bladed armor doesn't make ANY difference at all, but there's no need to get worked up over someone using hyperbole. Everyone knows Bladed Armor will help you clear a tad faster, but whether or not that's significant who knows? And is it worth not taking a point in unyielding? That's what the post was trying to outline.
Now Ketara, I highly suggest you take a break and calm down before you post again. There's no need to jump and say GD is giving you cancer the moment someone proposes an argument that counters yours. That's not how you handle disagreements.
On May 11 2015 10:25 Goumindong wrote: Also because he (and I) were warned/banned for saying something with factual and empirical supporting backing because c sheep didnt like it. But here someone says something utterly ridiculous and verifiable without testing or verifying and there is no such similar response.
Okay, your statement was mostly correct. The way you used it to argue your point was pretty bad and incorrectly applied. You basically said "Ashe does good damage for an AD carry because let's just ignore all the AD carries with steroids" when we say "Ashe has the best non-ASPD steroid". That's just poor usage of your facts to argue a case.
Did it warrant a ban? Probably not. But let's not compare the two cases, because it's absolutely not the same.
We'll end this conversation here and continue what was discussed before.
On May 11 2015 10:16 ItsFunToLose wrote: just for clarity, I also didn't take the position that it does nothing.
I was suggesting it doesn't always do something(in response to an exasperated ketara whose mind was literally blown that someone could suggest it doesn't help). there is a difference.
Nah I just got your names mixed up. My bad.
I'd imagine the reason pro junglers don't take bladed armor is because pro games involve very little early game solo jungling. Their top laners and supports leech and they get invaded to some degree almost every game.
When you're just solo jungling early game bladed armor can increase your speed dramatically. More for some junglers than others, but I doubt there is anyone where it makes literally zero difference.
I am waiting for somebody to actually post clears to show that it doesn't help. What pisses me off is that this is one of the easiest things in the entire game to go verify with actual testing, but nobody is bothering to do so.
On May 11 2015 10:25 Lost My Will To Live wrote: I read the entire conversation and Ketara, I don't see why you're so upset. Kaethis clearly outlines what he thinks about the 9 points in defense and the arguments are solid and sound. Block/unyielding are very strong and useful during all times of the game. There may have been some exaggeration in saying bladed armor doesn't make ANY difference at all, but there's no need to get worked up over someone using hyperbole. Everyone knows Bladed Armor will help you clear a tad faster, but whether or not that's significant who knows? And is it worth not taking a point in unyielding? That's what the post was trying to outline.
Now Ketara, I highly suggest you take a break and calm down before you post again. There's no need to jump and say GD is giving you cancer the moment someone proposes an argument that counters yours. That's not how you handle disagreements.
Welcome to GD!
I also highly suggest you stop being cheeky with your attempts at backdoor moderation too. We understand your frustrations, but not everything you disagree with is bannable or warnable, and you complaining about it throughout the forum is not going to help things.
On May 11 2015 10:25 Lost My Will To Live wrote: I read the entire conversation and Ketara, I don't see why you're so upset. Kaethis clearly outlines what he thinks about the 9 points in defense and the arguments are solid and sound. Block/unyielding are very strong and useful during all times of the game. There may have been some exaggeration in saying bladed armor doesn't make ANY difference at all, but there's no need to get worked up over someone using hyperbole. Everyone knows Bladed Armor will help you clear a tad faster, but whether or not that's significant who knows? And is it worth not taking a point in unyielding? That's what the post was trying to outline.
Now Ketara, I highly suggest you take a break and calm down before you post again. There's no need to jump and say GD is giving you cancer the moment someone proposes an argument that counters yours. That's not how you handle disagreements.
Welcome to GD!
I also highly suggest you stop being cheeky with your attempts at backdoor moderation too. We understand your frustrations, but not everything you disagree with is bannable or warnable, and you complaining about it throughout the forum is not going to help things.
I in no way think these people should be banned. Your comment was just naive of a regular's posting history.
On May 11 2015 10:25 Goumindong wrote: Also because he (and I) were warned/banned for saying something with factual and empirical supporting backing because c sheep didnt like it. But here someone says something utterly ridiculous and verifiable without testing or verifying and there is no such similar response.
Okay, your statement was mostly correct. The way you used it to argue your point was pretty bad and incorrectly applied. You basically said "Ashe does good damage for an AD carry because let's just ignore all the AD carries with steroids" when we say "Ashe has the best non-ASPD steroid". That's just poor usage of your facts to argue a case.
Did it warrant a ban? Probably not. But let's not compare the two cases, because it's absolutely not the same.
We'll end this conversation here and continue what was discussed before.
That just isn't true. My point was correct and empirically shown to be so. The overal point was even more correct(than the situation here) since we were arguing about win rate at the start (Ashe has/had both high win rate and damage done to champions compared to other ADs). And saying "well you went about arguing it wrong" is really saying "well you went aboutit with a moderator who was incorrect in the vincinity"
The entire policy of "you can't be wrong" is bad but it gets worse if the people doing the moderation don't actually do the due diligence to determine what is and isn't effective.
I would be very happy if, when people argue about something that can be verified in 10 minutes in a custom game, the moderators would actually insist on people backing up their claims with that verification, instead of allowing people to argue based on premises that are demonstrably false.
On May 11 2015 10:16 ItsFunToLose wrote: just for clarity, I also didn't take the position that it does nothing.
I was suggesting it doesn't always do something(in response to an exasperated ketara whose mind was literally blown that someone could suggest it doesn't help). there is a difference.
Nah I just got your names mixed up. My bad.
I'd imagine the reason pro junglers don't take bladed armor is because pro games involve very little early game solo jungling. Their top laners and supports leech and they get invaded to some degree almost every game.
When you're just solo jungling early game bladed armor can increase your speed dramatically. More for some junglers than others, but I doubt there is anyone where it makes literally zero difference.
I am waiting for somebody to actually post clears to show that it doesn't help. What pisses me off is that this is one of the easiest things in the entire game to go verify with actual testing, but nobody is bothering to do so.
oh weh have moderation discussion again. So far I saw nobody willing to take his theory into a custom game. Moderation talk stops now because its the wrong thread. I know all of you and most of you get completely defensive once you get criticism. The day I see people in here open to criticism will be the day I might think that GD thread has a purpose.
Most of the time its some stars align bullshit which is so specific that it has no real place in a real game or you guys focus on very small details but dont see the overall picture because you guys want to be right and don't want to discuss your theory. Most of you come into the discussion that you are always 100% correct.
We had this issue now for the billionth time and you guys still don't know that moderation issues go to website feedback.
On May 11 2015 11:00 Ketara wrote: I would be very happy if, when people argue about something that can be verified in 10 minutes in a custom game, the moderators would actually insist on people backing up their claims with that verification, instead of allowing people to argue based on premises that are demonstrably false.
Here's the point. They're not demonstrably false. They may be exaggerated claims, but that doesn't mean there isn't ANY merit to them.
On May 11 2015 10:25 Goumindong wrote: Also because he (and I) were warned/banned for saying something with factual and empirical supporting backing because c sheep didnt like it. But here someone says something utterly ridiculous and verifiable without testing or verifying and there is no such similar response.
Okay, your statement was mostly correct. The way you used it to argue your point was pretty bad and incorrectly applied. You basically said "Ashe does good damage for an AD carry because let's just ignore all the AD carries with steroids" when we say "Ashe has the best non-ASPD steroid". That's just poor usage of your facts to argue a case.
Did it warrant a ban? Probably not. But let's not compare the two cases, because it's absolutely not the same.
We'll end this conversation here and continue what was discussed before.
That just isn't true. My point was correct and empirically shown to be so. The overal point was even more correct(than the situation here) since we were arguing about win rate at the start (Ashe has/had both high win rate and damage done to champions compared to other ADs). And saying "well you went about arguing it wrong" is really saying "well you went aboutit with a moderator who was incorrect in the vincinity"
The entire policy of "you can't be wrong" is bad but it gets worse if the people doing the moderation don't actually do the due diligence to determine what is and isn't effective.
Yeah GMD you need to stop. Here's the reason why you need to stop arguing that you were right about this. Your argument was "Ashe has the best non-ASPD steroid in the game" and that's why Ashe has good damage output for an AD carry. Your argument of "Ashe has the best non-ASPD steroid in the game" I'll give you just to make this a close argument even though there may be some questions on whether or not that's actually true. But your final statement is that because her non-ASPD steroid is the best in the game, that gives her good damage compared to other AD carries. So let's just assume your "Ashe has the best non-ASPD steroid in the game" is true and let's consider the other AD carries that HAVE ASPD steroids:
Does Ashe have good damage compared to those champions?
Jinx - QWER all do damage. Q is AOE damage, R is huge AOE damage, has reset ability and a long range poke on W. Graves - Huge ASPD steroid on Quickdraw. QWR are good AOE damage. Ezreal - Good poke damage and sustained DPS with Q and W along with huge mobility with E. Large upfront burst wirh Trueshot Barrage. MF - Pretty decent damage on Q and good short ASPD steroid with W. If you get a full channel off on R, you do a ton of damage. Draven - Huge AD steroid on Q along with ASPD and MS steroid on W. E is decent self peel and R is a lot of damage globally. Sivir - Huge AOE damage with Boomerang and RIcochet along with spellshield and ultimate for mobility purposes. Tristana - Massive ASPD steroid on Q. E does a lot of damage if you're able to auto attack that target for a few times and W and R do damage if you engage in or can serve as peel with good upfront damage on Buster Shot. Twitch - Very large steroid and ability to output tons of damage with his ultimate being 900+ range and AOE. Varus - Huge scaling on his Q allows for great poke damage at huge range, and % damage off his W passive and E serves as a good slow along with the non-global form of Ashe's ultimate on his R.
So when we take into consideration all those champions I mentioned, Ashe really has 1 damaging skill (W) and I guess some R damage. Look at all these champions that have good damage skills along with ASPD steroids. I didn't even mention the fact that non-ASPD steroid champions such as Caitlyn (Headshot), Corki (True % Dmg), Kogmaw (% Magic Dmg) all have very good non-ASPD steroids for AD carries that may even be "the best non-ASPD steroid" in the game. So I gave you a part of your argument that may or may not even be right.
Ashe may have high damage dealt to champions in whatever data you may have pulled or looked at, but her kit is not the reason why. And don't even bother arguing it, because her numbers on W are not very high at all. Ashe basically is a pure auto attacker with no side skills at all besides a W and a magic damage scaling ultimate.
Kaethis entire rant was based on the presumption that bladed armor does nothing. This is not true. It provides a big increase in clear speed for your early game clears, and the speed of your early game clears is so important that its not hard to imagine scenarios in solo queue where being 15 seconds faster to a gank decides the outcome of the entire game.
If this is the case, then you can't take unyielding instead of bladed armor, so you're either going 21 offense and not getting it at all, or you're going 21 defense and taking unyielding over something high up in the defense tree. The high defense tree masteries are all very good, you probably don't want to do that.
And if you can't take unyielding, either recovery or enchanted armor are better than block. Recovery is better early game, enchanted armor is better late game.
So, the entire argument is based on a flawed premise. And if you'd go test the clear times with and without bladed armor, you would see that.
If you're going to say what my argument was at least get it right. Ashe has the highest no -steroid attack speed in the game (though I was actually wrong about this because I had forgotten that twitch and draven? has a higher base AS). I said additionally that the strength of her guaranteed crit made her burst Significant enough to make up for many of the steroids that other characters have. (Which it does)
There was a little more to it that that but at least get it right.
Edit: so we are explicitly clear here this is what I posted in response to "Ashe is a perfectly fine adc who does plenty of damage" and explicitly to the claim of "Ashe has the lowest damage of any adc"
Ashe has the highest level 18 non-steroid attack speed in the game. Her auto crit is a significant steroid, the only problem of which is that it does nothing 50% of the time. (I.E. if the enemy crits on their first attack), but otherwise is a significant damage boost that other AD's, even with their higher DOT will not likely overcome in short fights. (and if they ever fixed fucking crit it would be all the time)
Her base attack is .658 the highest of all AD's except twitch, which means that she scales well with attack speed items and ancillary boosts.
Her advantage is not at 2 items, but rather at 3+ items when the ability damage of other AD's starts to fall off, and the power of a 600 damage 3 second stun and auto-crit starts to shine.
Her downsides are no mobility, the lowest base speed in the game, and a shitty AA animation (compared to most AD's even after the tweaks), and a passive that does nothing 50% of the time. But not damage.
What you really want to know is this. Does Ashe win games? Ashe is the highest weekly win rate ADC in Platinum and the second highest in Diamond according to lolking(third monthly in plat and diamond, behind Jinx and Sivir)*. So yes. Ashe is a perfectly fine ADC who does plenty of damage
*tend to ignore challenger because there aren't enough games and because the dynamics of play are really strange up there
Show nested quote +(stuff about mobility)
Indeed, if only there were some high peel support who was also strong at the moment. Maybe this support could have a linear pass through knockup, a targeted slow, an AoE speed up passve, and he or she can put a shield on a target to give them HP and AD. Then her ultimate could be a massive knock away and heal over time and they can have an item that gives you attack speed when you shield someone so that you can utilizes Ashe's high base attack speed.
A champion like that being good would make Ashe really strong, its a shame one doesn't exist.
Okay, I misread your argument because of your wording, but you can't just say "Yeah she's doing okay in Diamond and wins games, so she must do good damage". I mean, MF also does well in Diamond+. Does that make her good as a champion and/or do good damage?
Lucian/Graves have <50%. Does that mean they're bad champions?
I kinda wish there was an in-depth analysis of champion winrates on mains v. fillers. I do a lot better on Ashe than Lucian because I hate ADC, and a potato could play Ashe at a silver level.
On May 11 2015 12:27 Lost My Will To Live wrote: Okay, I misread your argument because of your wording, but you can't just say "Yeah she's doing okay in Diamond and wins games, so she must do good damage". I mean, MF also does well in Diamond+. Does that make her good as a champion and/or do good damage?
Lucian/Graves have <50%. Does that mean they're bad champions?
There was nothing circumspect about my wording. And actually yes it does mean a champion is good if their win rate is high! Winning is the point is it not?
Which means that Ashe is a perfectly fine adc and does plenty of damage and such a statement is neither ridiculous on its face and neither does explaining the reasons for that either.
Here is another reason Ashe does a lot of damage. Her w does more damage than graves q unless graves is point blank. And it has longer range and a lower Cooldown.
People forget that competitive winrate/pickrate and general popularity are not indicators of value; they're indicators they work in that context.
Ashe has a slow that helps when she gets ahead, arrows that get her picks to get ahead, and W, probably one of the highest teamfight damage single spells in the game, especially.... when ahead. MF has a gamechanging ult in soloq and bullies lanes decently. If you just look at them without the context of 'no pro picks them, every other ADC does blankety blank better', you're ignoring hard statistics and simple intuition.
So I did some of the leg work on the blade armour thing. I took some shitty runes and masteries on Mumu, but I really didn't feel like redoing this. So here's my results
I was able to clear up to the red buff at 3:37 with blade armour. Without it, I had to skip the chickens entirely because I was so low HP I absolutely had to smite red buff to sustain. I cleared the red buff at 3:31. I went back and did the wraiths and died at 3:45. So, give or take, it'll help you clear about 10 seconds faster and with more HP. For the record, I stopped taking blade armour when I jungle because I hated when I'd accidentally take a buff I was handing off because of it. Kinda makes me wonder if it works on Dragon and Baron and how effective it is on those objectives.
On May 11 2015 13:33 Sonnington wrote: So I did some of the leg work on the blade armour thing. I took some shitty runes and masteries on Mumu, but I really didn't feel like redoing this. So here's my results
I was able to clear up to the red buff at 3:37 with blade armour. Without it, I had to skip the chickens entirely because I was so low HP I absolutely had to smite red buff to sustain. I cleared the red buff at 3:31. I went back and did the wraiths and died at 3:45. So, give or take, it'll help you clear about 10 seconds faster and with more HP. For the record, I stopped taking blade armour when I jungle because I hated when I'd accidentally take a buff I was handing off because of it. Kinda makes me wonder if it works on Dragon and Baron and how effective it is on those objectives.
Ekko's ult sounds almost like Weaver's.I like it. It doesn't seem as original as someone like Singed or Nasus which can affect your entire playstyle but it's still nice. And they added another black champion. Maybe the community will stop calling Lucian Usain Bolt or Lebron or Obama.
On May 11 2015 10:25 Lost My Will To Live wrote: I read the entire conversation and Ketara, I don't see why you're so upset. Kaethis clearly outlines what he thinks about the 9 points in defense and the arguments are solid and sound. Block/unyielding are very strong and useful during all times of the game. There may have been some exaggeration in saying bladed armor doesn't make ANY difference at all, but there's no need to get worked up over someone using hyperbole. Everyone knows Bladed Armor will help you clear a tad faster, but whether or not that's significant who knows? And is it worth not taking a point in unyielding? That's what the post was trying to outline.
Now Ketara, I highly suggest you take a break and calm down before you post again. There's no need to jump and say GD is giving you cancer the moment someone proposes an argument that counters yours. That's not how you handle disagreements.
well yeah, who knows? I do it's the most insane mastery in the fucking game for a jungler
On May 11 2015 13:33 Sonnington wrote: So I did some of the leg work on the blade armour thing. I took some shitty runes and masteries on Mumu, but I really didn't feel like redoing this. So here's my results
I was able to clear up to the red buff at 3:37 with blade armour. Without it, I had to skip the chickens entirely because I was so low HP I absolutely had to smite red buff to sustain. I cleared the red buff at 3:31. I went back and did the wraiths and died at 3:45. So, give or take, it'll help you clear about 10 seconds faster and with more HP. For the record, I stopped taking blade armour when I jungle because I hated when I'd accidentally take a buff I was handing off because of it. Kinda makes me wonder if it works on Dragon and Baron and how effective it is on those objectives.
Bladed Armor doesn't kill.
is it just me or does gromp buff not kill big monsters either? I've always noticed when I jungle the little monsters die to it but never the big ones.
Correct. Just for the record, your machete DoT will never kill a big monster either, but red buff will.
On May 11 2015 11:36 Kaethis wrote: Can we just agree to disagree and move on?
Its not really agreeing to disagree. You are factually wrong. And rather than spend ten minutes checking to verify that you are factually wrong, the moderation staff would rather jump up and down all night talking about how everyone is entitled to their opinion even when it is completely wrong.
i'm not talking about length of game because of late game ad carries. i'm talking about length of game because 'damage dealt to champions' isn't too meaningful if say ashe has an average game length of 40 minutes while say varus has an average game length of 35 minutes.
even then, poke is an important factor too. the top 5 champions there are all strong poke champions so its no wonder they have the highest average damage dealt.
I should have clarified. The expected value is the integral of the value multiplied by the density at that point. So the smaler the area of "spikes" above the expected value the higher density that area has to be.
Which is to say that in all likelihood it looks like Ashe has comparatively short game lengths because the area where she is above her expected win % is smaller (and more towards the early game) than other champions. For which I gave two examples from the top damage list and one example of a hyper lategame carry.
If Ashe has comparatively short game lengths this should bias her "damage dealt to champions" number down because she has less time to do that damage. So if her damage is still high that is indicative of actual high damage.
As for poke, q is great poke, but would you consider Ashe a poke champion?
It's not foolproof but I don't have the avg game time for champions like sufficiency does. So I can't actually look at "dps" from recent patches.
On May 11 2015 13:33 Sonnington wrote: So I did some of the leg work on the blade armour thing. I took some shitty runes and masteries on Mumu, but I really didn't feel like redoing this. So here's my results
I was able to clear up to the red buff at 3:37 with blade armour. Without it, I had to skip the chickens entirely because I was so low HP I absolutely had to smite red buff to sustain. I cleared the red buff at 3:31. I went back and did the wraiths and died at 3:45. So, give or take, it'll help you clear about 10 seconds faster and with more HP. For the record, I stopped taking blade armour when I jungle because I hated when I'd accidentally take a buff I was handing off because of it. Kinda makes me wonder if it works on Dragon and Baron and how effective it is on those objectives.
Bladed Armor doesn't kill.
is it just me or does gromp buff not kill big monsters either? I've always noticed when I jungle the little monsters die to it but never the big ones.
Doesn't. Makes it awkward for Nautilus because of his slow-ass base AS + long animation so you waste a bunch of time finishing the small monsters "manually", and E is on a long-ish cd early game (and the shield breaks easily and if you kite backwards you don't get the AoE damage on the small monsters on the buff camps).
Nautilus kinda needs to smite red to not drop super low while doing raptors (I'll try doing raptors -> red but I'm pretty sure it will require a smite on red either way; I don't remember well if it affects the smite charge mechanic, I think not though), and that's with Bladed armour. Not taking it would be reducing your dps by so much it's not even funny.
Kaethis said: "As it is now it literally never makes a difference in how fast you kill monsters because you still need to auto them."
This is completely inane, damage is completely useless if you can't last hit with it? If you are annoyed at the 1hp creeps just time your autos better so they last hit the target. Bladed armour is best against the big creeps anyway where you don't leave them at low hp anyway.
Also: "Unyielding is good at all points in the game" If bladed armour helps you kill a minion 1 auto hit earlier that'll save you a decent amount of hp in most situations at most points in the game. Considering you're clearing a lot of high hp monsters 1% of current hp probably doing like 100-200 damage a camp later in the game. That means as long as you are jungling bladed armour saves you a small amount of time and hp which makes is relevant for most of the game in the context of 1 mastery point value
Say what you want about Ketara's whine posts, but Kaethis said something that is completely fucking wrong and agreeing with him on this is completely fucking wrong. You can argue that unyielding's teamfights merits make it worthwhile over bladed armour but saying that bladed armour doesn't help you clear faster is just fucking stupid. Not only are his claims obviously and demonstrably false, they were demonstrated to be false already by sonnington, which was gracious of him; because to me having to prove that having something that does damage to monsters makes clear faster is like having to prove last hitting minions gives you gold.
If unyielding works post resists and works on cinderhulk etc then it's actually probably worth taking over most points in the defense tree. Against a 200 AD opponent with 200 armour unyielding+block would be equivalent to about 12.5 armour. Against a 30 damage cinderhulk with 100 magic resist unyielding is equivalent to about 30 magic resist. It's 3 points for unyielding+block and 3 points for 5 flat armour or mr. (2 points for 5% bonus resists which is breakeven with the flat at +66 total resists including ability rune and mastery resists which you'd expect to get pretty fast on most tanks)
my math is probably wrong since i forgot block works before resists right? but unyielding is worded the same way meaning you'd think they'd both be pre-resists. In that case unyielding becomes 1/2 or 1/3 as strong but still quite good. reddit tells me they work post resists but iirc dorans shield works pre resists.
That said, most points in the defense tree are quite strong. I think the only weak ones are second wind (good on soraka though), recovery, and the feeder shield. Very underrated is Reinforced armour. An ADC with IE+PD crits 55% of the time for 2.5*damage meaning its about 75% of their damage meaning its a 7.5% damage reduction against ADCs who go IE+PD.
I think block is pre resists and unyielding is post resists, but I am not sure.
In your armor math, really what you'd be comparing is 3 points for block and unyielding vs 2 enchanted armor and something high in the defense tree, like a point from perserverence or legendary guardian or whatever. You can't compare it to the flat armor because like you said, reinforced armor is pretty broken op.
Since we're only talking about 9/21 junglers, its safe to assume they will build pretty tanky. Its normal to get something like 100-150 bonus armor and 50-100 bonus MR in a game. So if we used legendary armor for the easy comparison, taking enchanted armor + legendary armor would be worth at max around 12.5 armor and 7.5 mr. In a more resist favored champion or build it can be higher than that.
Since going lots of HP items on tanks is a big thing these days, if unyielding really is that good vs cinderhulk, its quite possibly a better option than other things later on in the tree. But you should never be taking it over bladed armor, and block by itself is never better than recovery/enchanted armor, which are the two points I've argued in this silly debate.
Also teut, recovery is actually quite strong early game, it just falls off very hard. In general its better than block point for point, since even laners are typically not taking more than 1 auto every 5 seconds early in the game. But after the first couple backs, the relevance of HP regen as a stat declines a lot.
I kind of don't like these masteries. Block/recovery/enchanted armor basically all do the same thing, they add generic tankiness, so it is possible to have broad scenarios where one is plainly better than the other. It seems counterintuitive to riots whole "meaningful choice" thing, and I imagine they are an artifact from S4 that will be changed if/when masteries are redone again.
From what I looked up it works post resists making it stronger than recovery because of the all in potential, not for a jungler of course. But if unyielding works the way people are saying it is its high enough value to justify the dumpster block points.
Thought I'd gather a list of picks and bans that were used.
27 champs. 16 used in every pick phase. Basically recycling the same champs with 16 used per draft, if we ignore a few outliers like the tf ban, eve pick, morg pick, lulu pick, leona pick, ezreal pick its more like 23 reliable contested picks with 16 of them being used. rito pls. There is something to be said about player limits though since a pro player seems to usually have a pool of about 5 champs he is consistent with. Lucian/Leona picked specifically for that combo (Leona passive works well with lucians double shot) In addition with respect to the topic of obvious OPs, list of champs picked and banned every game or just unpicked once: Hecarim picked/banned Gragas picked/banned Kalista picked/banned Leblanc picked/bannned Cassio picked/banned Urgot picked/banned Maokai picked/banned Rek'Sai picked/banned Jinx(left out once) Nunu(left out once) Annie(left out once)
Urgot and annie are the only real surprises that appear so much in competitive but not in solo q. AP: TF(Ban only) LeBlanc Cassio Orianna Azir -- Lulu Kassadin
I said it in the MSI thread before, but I think the most interesting thing to take away from MSI is the preference for beefy hard initiation supports. Janna, Nami, Morgana, Lulu all fell out of favour.
It's all about starting the fights on your own terms. Reactive plays or more skirmish style games appear unable to do enough in the teamfight tank meta.
It's just a lack of poke comps. "Protect the X" comps need to be fought with either good poke or good engage and there arent many strong poke champs that people play. People are playing lots of nunu/azir/adc and theres lots of strong engage with reksais, gragas, sej, and HG tp tops. The strength of the ranged supports tends to be that adc+that support beats most strong assassiny/divers but if you have an engaging support turning it into a 2v2/3v3 isn't good anymore because they lack "dueling power" so to speak Also Meiko seemed to want to play annie pretty much every game so even when they played the defense comps they just picked annie because meikos so good with her and the deft jinx+meiko annie seems to work well for them. Probably janna/morg/lulu would have been good there instead. Not sure about nami though, nami sucks. She's like an engage support who can't contribute her hp pool to the dive, but is unreliable as a defensive support.
If people are playing comps with more poke or without strong engage you'll see them again.
In this bo5 it seemed the strong engage tanks won every time. Rumble/reksai+mid aoe engage actually lost both times it played one time against a nunu/azir comp.
Also ranged supports are good at outsustaining burst e.g if a talon or whatever jumps in janna E+ult can outheal the burst and then you win from there. If you're facing cassio+jinx or cassio+kalista backline a bit of sustain doesn't help at all while something that can burst down the cassio/kalista helps a lot more. Also with urgot you don't want a ranged support because of lack of damage on your backline, unless its urgot+cassio.
Because they'll just die if you initiate on them. Offlane and jungle usually being beefy mofos over damage threats (well there's still dumb damage on Gragas and Sej but supposedly not solo kill threat) means comps often have 2 threats to eliminate (one when you pick Urgot bot or Lulu mid and don't snowball zzz). In that case if you initiating on the enemy's and blow it up you win the fight. Peelers (with the exceptions of Thresh who's dumb and Braum) are usually squishies, and with all that initiation that's one more target to blow up without committing big cooldowns if they step out or you can't reach the enemy carry.
Mix both and you'd rather have Leona to explode the enemy Cass and then your own frontline can't die anymore, than a Janna to protect your Azir who's not gonna get jumped on if you're the one initiating anyway.
At least that's how I see it. You can probably make a case for all the early game dives and ganks, with supports roaming even in some games without lane swaps. You'd rather just have the burst/lockdown to kill someone (or make dives/threat of counterganks scary), and the tankiness to tank 2-3 tower shots (or manage to survive if you get caught in your jungle while they set up).
Remember we were in a period of the game where junglers and tanks were both unfarmed (lane swaps and pre-cinderhulk jungle meta) and essentially non threats so picking a diving support would have been useless when theres nobody to dive with you
In general when peeling gets more difficult with the hard engaging tanks/well practiced teleport engages and (multiple) rightous glorys everywhere initiating becomes more valuable. It is just way easier to turn the table and engage yourself which then naturally leads to your carries being safer because your opponent could not set up the proper flanks.
On May 11 2015 20:38 Slayer91 wrote: From what I looked up it works post resists making it stronger than recovery because of the all in potential, not for a jungler of course. But if unyielding works the way people are saying it is its high enough value to justify the dumpster block points.
Thought I'd gather a list of picks and bans that were used.
27 champs. 16 used in every pick phase. Basically recycling the same champs with 16 used per draft, if we ignore a few outliers like the tf ban, eve pick, morg pick, lulu pick, leona pick, ezreal pick its more like 23 reliable contested picks with 16 of them being used. rito pls. There is something to be said about player limits though since a pro player seems to usually have a pool of about 5 champs he is consistent with. Lucian/Leona picked specifically for that combo (Leona passive works well with lucians double shot) In addition with respect to the topic of obvious OPs, list of champs picked and banned every game or just unpicked once: Hecarim picked/banned Gragas picked/banned Kalista picked/banned Leblanc picked/bannned Cassio picked/banned Urgot picked/banned Maokai picked/banned Rek'Sai picked/banned Jinx(left out once) Nunu(left out once) Annie(left out once)
Urgot and annie are the only real surprises that appear so much in competitive but not in solo q. AP: TF(Ban only) LeBlanc Cassio Orianna Azir -- Lulu Kassadin
The two Bard picks are hilarious. I doubt he'll ever be a competitive support but the fact that some people in the scene want to try him out makes me think someone could get good enough at him to overcome his overwhelming disadvantages.
On May 12 2015 00:58 Zdrastochye wrote: The two Bard picks are hilarious. I doubt he'll ever be a competitive support but the fact that some people in the scene want to try him out makes me think someone could get good enough at him to overcome his overwhelming disadvantages.
From the pros I talked to, they actually believe he is in a pretty good shape after the recent changes, but teams just don't want to bother learning to play with him when other supports are Good Enough.
I don't think it's worth doing on junglers who take 21 offense.
There's some variation and you can probably do it better because I'm bad, but I did it a few times and picked the best runs. I didn't do it like 10 times and average because effort. I used both potions doing it, although you could do it without the second one.
Nidalee Q --> E, Golem (smite) --> Red --> Blue (smite)
Unyielding: ~3:32, ~320/686 hp Bladed Armour: ~3:30 ~330/686 hp
Lee Sin Q --> W, Golem (smite) --> Red --> Blue (smite)
Unyielding: ~3:23, ~440/755 hp Bladed Armour: ~3:17 ~460/755 hp
The difference doesn't really seem that big and bladed becomes worse after getting actual items. The difference also wouldn't be as large when you get a leash due to how the CDs stack up vs monster HP.
If you go and take scuttle afterwards then you're pretty much equal in HP.
On May 12 2015 00:58 Zdrastochye wrote: The two Bard picks are hilarious. I doubt he'll ever be a competitive support but the fact that some people in the scene want to try him out makes me think someone could get good enough at him to overcome his overwhelming disadvantages.
From the pros I talked to, they actually believe he is in a pretty good shape after the recent changes, but teams just don't want to bother learning to play with him when other supports are Good Enough.
He could work as a roaming support, which he is likely the best champion to play that way, but his 2v2 laning does not seem as powerful as the more traditional supports.
On May 12 2015 03:01 Ansibled wrote: I don't think it's worth doing on junglers who take 21 offense.
There's some variation and you can probably do it better because I'm bad, but I did it a few times and picked the best runs. I didn't do it like 10 times and average because effort. I used both potions doing it, although you could do it without the second one.
Nidalee Q --> E, Golem (smite) --> Red --> Blue (smite)
Unyielding: ~3:32, ~320/686 hp Bladed Armour: ~3:30 ~330/686 hp
Lee Sin Q --> W, Golem (smite) --> Red --> Blue (smite)
Unyielding: ~3:23, ~440/755 hp Bladed Armour: ~3:17 ~460/755 hp
The difference doesn't really seem that big and bladed becomes worse after getting actual items. The difference also wouldn't be as large when you get a leash due to how the CDs stack up vs monster HP.
If you go and take scuttle afterwards then you're pretty much equal in HP.
you're not clearing your whole jungle you just doing 3 camps if you do 0 camps bladed armour is literally useless bad mastery imo
I don't think he's a particularally good roaming support either, he has less damage and lockdown pre ult than something like Annie or Blitz (or Naut) so even though chimes give some exp leaving lane delays your ult which is when I would say he "comes online"
not to say that the aformentioned don't have good ults also but they are better at ganking lanes than him.
I actually think Bard is really good but his passive is pretty ho hum until you get a bunch of chimes and his W being pretty bad really holds him back. what he does bring is pretty high pick potential mid/late as well as Warwick levels of fight cleanup (if your team is winning nobody will leave alive). I would say he's decent to strong in team fights, especially as the game gets late. Honestly the big problem is W, the heal is so bad for on demand and the speed buff doesn't warrent a full ability, they need to give it something like Scaling speed duration on w ranks if they want him to be top tier (I'm not sure if they do)
honestly I don't know why they gave him a heal in the first place it makes no sense conceptually to me.
On May 12 2015 03:01 Ansibled wrote: I don't think it's worth doing on junglers who take 21 offense.
There's some variation and you can probably do it better because I'm bad, but I did it a few times and picked the best runs. I didn't do it like 10 times and average because effort. I used both potions doing it, although you could do it without the second one.
Nidalee Q --> E, Golem (smite) --> Red --> Blue (smite)
Unyielding: ~3:32, ~320/686 hp Bladed Armour: ~3:30 ~330/686 hp
Lee Sin Q --> W, Golem (smite) --> Red --> Blue (smite)
Unyielding: ~3:23, ~440/755 hp Bladed Armour: ~3:17 ~460/755 hp
The difference doesn't really seem that big and bladed becomes worse after getting actual items. The difference also wouldn't be as large when you get a leash due to how the CDs stack up vs monster HP.
If you go and take scuttle afterwards then you're pretty much equal in HP.
you're not clearing your whole jungle you just doing 3 camps if you do 0 camps bladed armour is literally useless bad mastery imo
Why would I ever want to full clear my jungle early game on Lee Sin / Nidalee?
On May 12 2015 03:01 Ansibled wrote: I don't think it's worth doing on junglers who take 21 offense.
There's some variation and you can probably do it better because I'm bad, but I did it a few times and picked the best runs. I didn't do it like 10 times and average because effort. I used both potions doing it, although you could do it without the second one.
Nidalee Q --> E, Golem (smite) --> Red --> Blue (smite)
Unyielding: ~3:32, ~320/686 hp Bladed Armour: ~3:30 ~330/686 hp
Lee Sin Q --> W, Golem (smite) --> Red --> Blue (smite)
Unyielding: ~3:23, ~440/755 hp Bladed Armour: ~3:17 ~460/755 hp
The difference doesn't really seem that big and bladed becomes worse after getting actual items. The difference also wouldn't be as large when you get a leash due to how the CDs stack up vs monster HP.
If you go and take scuttle afterwards then you're pretty much equal in HP.
you're not clearing your whole jungle you just doing 3 camps if you do 0 camps bladed armour is literally useless bad mastery imo
Why would I ever want to full clear my jungle early game on Lee Sin / Nidalee?
because you can sometimes there's just nowhere to gank
also you'd be a lot better player if you considered 6 second difference in a 3 camp clear at the cost of ONLY 3 MASTERY POINTS a HUGE WORTH rather than "not a big deal"
On May 12 2015 03:01 Ansibled wrote: I don't think it's worth doing on junglers who take 21 offense.
There's some variation and you can probably do it better because I'm bad, but I did it a few times and picked the best runs. I didn't do it like 10 times and average because effort. I used both potions doing it, although you could do it without the second one.
Nidalee Q --> E, Golem (smite) --> Red --> Blue (smite)
Unyielding: ~3:32, ~320/686 hp Bladed Armour: ~3:30 ~330/686 hp
Lee Sin Q --> W, Golem (smite) --> Red --> Blue (smite)
Unyielding: ~3:23, ~440/755 hp Bladed Armour: ~3:17 ~460/755 hp
The difference doesn't really seem that big and bladed becomes worse after getting actual items. The difference also wouldn't be as large when you get a leash due to how the CDs stack up vs monster HP.
If you go and take scuttle afterwards then you're pretty much equal in HP.
you're not clearing your whole jungle you just doing 3 camps if you do 0 camps bladed armour is literally useless bad mastery imo
Why would I ever want to full clear my jungle early game on Lee Sin / Nidalee?
because you can sometimes there's just nowhere to gank
also you'd be a lot better player if you considered 6 second difference in a 3 camp clear at the cost of ONLY 3 MASTERY POINTS a HUGE WORTH rather than "not a big deal"
Not to mention you'd be taking tough skin regardless, so it's only 1 point expended.
Yeah, I read that post, and I was like, sweet, Ansibled proved that Bladed Armor is worth it, and then he's like, actually 20HP and 6 seconds off a 3camp clear is totally not worth a mastery point. ????
Oh yeah you could just do Scuttle afterwards and make up the difference. Implying that as a jungler you aren't already contesting Scuttle, it's only something that non-Bladed Armor junglers take apparently.
With Irelia, I got him down to a third of his HP at level 2 (I was 3) by pushing the lane a bit. He popped his potion and got back over health between that, Q and E before the waves met again and I found myself outtraded because of minion aggro. I can't activate Hiten Style too early or just Q to him after a trade because he'll simply pool, and between the 2s duration and the slow (I won't get on top of him after that because base MS too close) I basically get 2 autos and the spell is over. If I Q to him after he emerges, sitting in the middle of his minion wave, I'll lose automatically because minions + his cooldowns are back up and my W is about to expire, giving him free harass on my way out then ~10 seconds of free farming/harass/sustain since I don't have Q and W available.
And that's at levels 3~5. Once he backs and has pieces of revolver and a lower cd on Q I cannot outtrade him at all unless I ult, and if I do that he'll sustain enough that he'll survive the next trade during my cooldowns, meaning I can never kill him (ideally I'd want to trade, wait for cds then all-in with ult, but if I do that I'll just die when he all-ins back since he won the first trade).
The shitter I was against messed up several Es (paying health for nothing since he didn't have spellvamp yet) and Ws, later he even completely missed his ult, had AP marks/quints, and scaling armour/MR runes so he was theorically at his weakest in these first few levels and I still couldn't beat him enough to make a difference.
Yet people say all the time that Irelia beats Vlad 1v1. How do you do it then? Stack MR? Run MS quints to chase him? Use some dumb pride to pretend it's a 1v1 when you actually need the jungler to win?
that 20hp doesnt really change much it only matters early game and most of the top tier junglers will have max hp with pots/sustain anyway when they gank
On May 12 2015 05:30 kongoline wrote: that 20hp doesnt really change much it only matters early game and most of the top tier junglers will have max hp with pots/sustain anyway when they gank
If the 20hp doesn't matter, then how does the hp that you'd save with unyielding help?
If the health doesn't matter, then the only thing both masteries can do is save time. Only Bladed Armor does that.
He is arguing that unyielding is better later in the game.
Clearing faster is always better later in the game, because you have more gold.
Scip is like, 5000% correct, there's a reason he is in masters and everybody else here is not. 6 seconds on your first clear can decide the entire game very easily, and even when it does not, it adds up on each clear enough over time to give you an exp/item advantage over somebody who is 6 seconds slower.
On May 12 2015 05:48 Ketara wrote: He is arguing that unyielding is better later in the game.
Clearing faster is always better later in the game, because you have more gold.
Scip is like, 5000% correct, there's a reason he is in masters and everybody else here is not. 6 seconds on your first clear can decide the entire game very easily, and even when it does not, it adds up on each clear enough over time to give you an exp/item advantage over somebody who is 6 seconds slower.
And even then, I'm pretty sure it works on Dragon and Baron as well.
On May 12 2015 05:48 Ketara wrote: He is arguing that unyielding is better later in the game.
Clearing faster is always better later in the game, because you have more gold.
Scip is like, 5000% correct, there's a reason he is in masters and everybody else here is not. 6 seconds on your first clear can decide the entire game very easily, and even when it does not, it adds up on each clear enough over time to give you an exp/item advantage over somebody who is 6 seconds slower.
by that logic we all should use unyielding instead of bladed armor since pretty much every pro jungler uses it and they clearly know best
On May 12 2015 05:29 Alaric wrote: So, legit question. How do you play against Vlad?
With Irelia, I got him down to a third of his HP at level 2 (I was 3) by pushing the lane a bit. He popped his potion and got back over health between that, Q and E before the waves met again and I found myself outtraded because of minion aggro. I can't activate Hiten Style too early or just Q to him after a trade because he'll simply pool, and between the 2s duration and the slow (I won't get on top of him after that because base MS too close) I basically get 2 autos and the spell is over. If I Q to him after he emerges, sitting in the middle of his minion wave, I'll lose automatically because minions + his cooldowns are back up and my W is about to expire, giving him free harass on my way out then ~10 seconds of free farming/harass/sustain since I don't have Q and W available.
And that's at levels 3~5. Once he backs and has pieces of revolver and a lower cd on Q I cannot outtrade him at all unless I ult, and if I do that he'll sustain enough that he'll survive the next trade during my cooldowns, meaning I can never kill him (ideally I'd want to trade, wait for cds then all-in with ult, but if I do that I'll just die when he all-ins back since he won the first trade).
The shitter I was against messed up several Es (paying health for nothing since he didn't have spellvamp yet) and Ws, later he even completely missed his ult, had AP marks/quints, and scaling armour/MR runes so he was theorically at his weakest in these first few levels and I still couldn't beat him enough to make a difference.
Yet people say all the time that Irelia beats Vlad 1v1. How do you do it then? Stack MR? Run MS quints to chase him? Use some dumb pride to pretend it's a 1v1 when you actually need the jungler to win?
You probably should pop hiten immediately in every trade. and go in nearly every time its off CD.
Vlad pool will have a 26 second cd compared to a 15s hiten cd. Hiten lasts 6 seconds, pool lasts two. If he pops pool immediately thats actually totally ok, it takes 20% of his current HP for pool, thats a lot, you can completely disengage and you've already won a trade. Ideally you should be closing on him via Q to a low minion, beating on him with hiten until he pools, then either following up with Q to gap close and keep hitting or just walk away depending on lane position.
people say vlad sucks until lvl 7 and then gets better but I find it to be quite the opposite, melees like irelia can't do much early so he can push you down if he wants to, and then you can start wrecking him at lvl 5+ you just q a low hp creep E W auto auto q auto etc and then you just allin with ult next time use bushes to deaggro him just like a cannon minion since he wont chase you in there
vlad is the sort of champ that does the same damage in a harass as he does in an all in (without ult) so going from getting harassed to just going in on him is just minion aggro damage mostly. a good trick is to watch for when they are stacking E up and attack them inbetween the CDs. No stacks of E vlad does no damage.
On May 11 2015 03:25 Sufficiency wrote: While you guys are debating the marginal difference over Bladed Armor / Unyielding, I am just sitting here gaining free Elo with Nunu and not care about minor mastery differences.
Inspired by this post I decided to play a game of support Nunu. Quite possible the most fun I've had in ages, stealing Amumu's first blue buff while our Gragas took his red and big monsters topside was glorious.
I'm late to the discussion, but doesn't common sense say that bladed armor beats unyielding? You're a jungler, you get hit by creeps a lot more than champions except in some incredibly niche cases. I understand getting unyielding on cinderhulk toplaners, but that's about it.
We have all these weird cases where you end up fighting a champ, and in those given you've saved hp and time by clearing faster with bladed armor you probably have more hp anyways, and that amount most likely exceeds the amount saved by unyielding. The only exception I can think of realistically is lvl 1 or 2 invades.
Yeah, I played a couple of jungle Nunu games recently. He does retarded amounts of damage when you build full AP and rush Luden's first. Tank Nunu is pretty stupid overall. It's just like St Vicious says, you just walk around like a retard and let the enemy engage on you.
On May 12 2015 07:27 Ansibled wrote: The Ryze rework really worked out well!
His lategame needs to be even better than his old lategame because his laning is weaker and his pushing is no better. Like, he needs to be Maokai tanky with Cassio damage.
On May 12 2015 05:48 Ketara wrote: He is arguing that unyielding is better later in the game.
Clearing faster is always better later in the game, because you have more gold.
Scip is like, 5000% correct, there's a reason he is in masters and everybody else here is not. 6 seconds on your first clear can decide the entire game very easily, and even when it does not, it adds up on each clear enough over time to give you an exp/item advantage over somebody who is 6 seconds slower.
by that logic we all should use unyielding instead of bladed armor since pretty much every pro jungler uses it and they clearly know best
I said this yesterday but I'll say it again.
Professional junglers are not playing the same game that you or Scip are.
In pro games right now, there are often 2 or 3 man fights over buffs at level 1. In that situation, unyielding matters. This almost never happens in solo queue.
In pro games right now, the top player often does several camps with the jungler. In that situation you are trading damage so bladed armor is less effective. This never happens in solo queue.
In pro games junglers will sit in a bush not farming for 20-30 seconds waiting for a countergank. In arranged play this can be a very good decision, because you have comms so your team can react on it immediately. In solo queue it is rarely a better decision than just farming more, where you would get value from bladed armor.
In pro games junglers are expected to invest into wards and sightstone, and will have less gold in resists, so enchanted armor will be less value than it is in solo queue.
Pro jungle and solo queue jungle are very different. Pro players take their pro game mastery pages into solo queue because it helps them practice for the pro games. They are not the best things to do to climb elo in solo queue.
If I pop E, W and Q on every trade with Vlad (and even another Q if I have to use it to go on a minion) I'll go oom ridiculously fast as Irelia though, her mana pool makes you wish you were jungling Amumu without blue instead. I guess I could try just autoing him with Hiten without the E, if he replies I stun him, otherwise I chase (but pre-Phage you don't run fast enough, meh).
Letting him push is dangerous because he can kill waves quickly and snowball his, if it gets close to your tower he'll just harass you while you last hit, with too big a health deficit to be able to trade afterwards. I guess it's a question of wave control so you give him maybe one or two minion, after the waves meet, so he doesn't have time to start killing your next wave before they meet and force you to take 4+ minions' worth of aggro more than him. If he pushes like a retard at level 1 it's hard to punish without taking harass (and he won't take aggro because his aa's projectile speed is slow, kinda like Zyra), gotta find a way to prevent that (sure it makes him food for jungler but I can't rely on that).
Him being close enough to a low health minion, right after casting E (which I didn't eat), and without the wave being too much in his favor sound like super specific conditions to jump him though, especially if you add "after Hiten comes back up but before he has pool".
I tried new ryze i really did, he is just ass. His Q is just way way too fucking hard to hit, not only in lane, but also way way too hard to hit in chaotic teamfight when someone is body blocking and you have to throw them out every 2 seconds. If you cant land Q you never scale into a monster like old ryze, so you're just trash at every point in the game. He need a massive numbers buff, but even then with Q being so fucking tiny and linear, he's still gonna end up in a really awful feast or famine state based on how easy it is to land them in a given situation
his whole design seems shitty in my opinion, his passive is just a giant "don't trade with me for 5 seconds", and he still has basically zero tricks up his sleeve to force anything. There is still no outplay potential barring flash. Its just obnoxious and hard to keep track of.
On May 12 2015 09:45 sob3k wrote: I tried new ryze i really did, he is just ass. His Q is just way way too fucking hard to hit, not only in lane, but also way way too hard to hit in chaotic teamfight when someone is body blocking and you have to throw them out every 2 seconds. If you cant land Q you never scale into a monster like old ryze, so you're just trash at every point in the game. He need a massive numbers buff, but even then with Q being so fucking tiny and linear, he's still gonna end up in a really awful feast or famine state based on how easy it is to land them in a given situation
his whole design seems shitty in my opinion, his passive is just a giant "don't trade with me for 5 seconds", and he still has basically zero tricks up his sleeve to force anything. There is still no outplay potential barring flash. Its just obnoxious and hard to keep track of.
I say, give him the Shyvana treatment. Make his Q pass-through like her E. Can get lowered damage or something it doesn't matter. But at least it will let him do something
On May 12 2015 09:45 sob3k wrote: I tried new ryze i really did, he is just ass. His Q is just way way too fucking hard to hit, not only in lane, but also way way too hard to hit in chaotic teamfight when someone is body blocking and you have to throw them out every 2 seconds. If you cant land Q you never scale into a monster like old ryze, so you're just trash at every point in the game. He need a massive numbers buff, but even then with Q being so fucking tiny and linear, he's still gonna end up in a really awful feast or famine state based on how easy it is to land them in a given situation
his whole design seems shitty in my opinion, his passive is just a giant "don't trade with me for 5 seconds", and he still has basically zero tricks up his sleeve to force anything. There is still no outplay potential barring flash. Its just obnoxious and hard to keep track of.
I say, give him the Shyvana treatment. Make his Q pass-through like her E. Can get lowered damage or something it doesn't matter. But at least it will let him do something
I like my idea. Make him hilariously OP in the lategame. Like, add singed passive onto his Ult levels, Q scales with last hits, and give him armor/MR for every target E bounces onto (it could "steal" it or something). Maokai tanky with Cassio damage. Its the only way, unless they make E 1-shot minion waves at lvl 7/9 if lvld first.
On May 12 2015 09:45 sob3k wrote: I tried new ryze i really did, he is just ass. His Q is just way way too fucking hard to hit, not only in lane, but also way way too hard to hit in chaotic teamfight when someone is body blocking and you have to throw them out every 2 seconds. If you cant land Q you never scale into a monster like old ryze, so you're just trash at every point in the game. He need a massive numbers buff, but even then with Q being so fucking tiny and linear, he's still gonna end up in a really awful feast or famine state based on how easy it is to land them in a given situation
his whole design seems shitty in my opinion, his passive is just a giant "don't trade with me for 5 seconds", and he still has basically zero tricks up his sleeve to force anything. There is still no outplay potential barring flash. Its just obnoxious and hard to keep track of.
I say, give him the Shyvana treatment. Make his Q pass-through like her E. Can get lowered damage or something it doesn't matter. But at least it will let him do something
I like my idea. Make him hilariously OP in the lategame. Like, add singed passive onto his Ult levels, Q scales with last hits, and give him armor/MR for every target E bounces onto (it could "steal" it or something). Maokai tanky with Cassio damage. Its the only way, unless they make E 1-shot minion waves at lvl 7/9 if lvld first.
They could always make his Q a targeted ability, that sounds like it just might work.
On May 12 2015 09:45 sob3k wrote: I tried new ryze i really did, he is just ass. His Q is just way way too fucking hard to hit, not only in lane, but also way way too hard to hit in chaotic teamfight when someone is body blocking and you have to throw them out every 2 seconds. If you cant land Q you never scale into a monster like old ryze, so you're just trash at every point in the game. He need a massive numbers buff, but even then with Q being so fucking tiny and linear, he's still gonna end up in a really awful feast or famine state based on how easy it is to land them in a given situation
his whole design seems shitty in my opinion, his passive is just a giant "don't trade with me for 5 seconds", and he still has basically zero tricks up his sleeve to force anything. There is still no outplay potential barring flash. Its just obnoxious and hard to keep track of.
I say, give him the Shyvana treatment. Make his Q pass-through like her E. Can get lowered damage or something it doesn't matter. But at least it will let him do something
I like my idea. Make him hilariously OP in the lategame. Like, add singed passive onto his Ult levels, Q scales with last hits, and give him armor/MR for every target E bounces onto (it could "steal" it or something). Maokai tanky with Cassio damage. Its the only way, unless they make E 1-shot minion waves at lvl 7/9 if lvld first.
They could always make his Q a targeted ability, that sounds like it just might work.
Get out of here with your crazy ideas. There is no way that would work
On May 12 2015 09:45 sob3k wrote: I tried new ryze i really did, he is just ass. His Q is just way way too fucking hard to hit, not only in lane, but also way way too hard to hit in chaotic teamfight when someone is body blocking and you have to throw them out every 2 seconds. If you cant land Q you never scale into a monster like old ryze, so you're just trash at every point in the game. He need a massive numbers buff, but even then with Q being so fucking tiny and linear, he's still gonna end up in a really awful feast or famine state based on how easy it is to land them in a given situation
his whole design seems shitty in my opinion, his passive is just a giant "don't trade with me for 5 seconds", and he still has basically zero tricks up his sleeve to force anything. There is still no outplay potential barring flash. Its just obnoxious and hard to keep track of.
I say, give him the Shyvana treatment. Make his Q pass-through like her E. Can get lowered damage or something it doesn't matter. But at least it will let him do something
I like my idea. Make him hilariously OP in the lategame. Like, add singed passive onto his Ult levels, Q scales with last hits, and give him armor/MR for every target E bounces onto (it could "steal" it or something). Maokai tanky with Cassio damage. Its the only way, unless they make E 1-shot minion waves at lvl 7/9 if lvld first.
They could always make his Q a targeted ability, that sounds like it just might work.
Get out of here with your crazy ideas. There is no way that would work
Oi. Rework Ryze is god tier in ARAM right now, you just Lee Sin in with 4 stacks and collect a penta with a million spell rotation with your ult. Rito give Ryze Mark/Dash in Rift too pls.
On May 12 2015 05:48 Ketara wrote: He is arguing that unyielding is better later in the game.
Clearing faster is always better later in the game, because you have more gold.
Scip is like, 5000% correct, there's a reason he is in masters and everybody else here is not. 6 seconds on your first clear can decide the entire game very easily, and even when it does not, it adds up on each clear enough over time to give you an exp/item advantage over somebody who is 6 seconds slower.
by that logic we all should use unyielding instead of bladed armor since pretty much every pro jungler uses it and they clearly know best
I said this yesterday but I'll say it again.
Professional junglers are not playing the same game that you or Scip are.
They do it in soloQ too, on every single jungler that goes 21/9.
My opinion of new Ryze is that he is ass, because the majority of his damage (and sustain) would come in from him running up with R activated, E bouncing around and shredding MR, followed up by the point and click Q+W damage on one of those MR shredded foes. Now that Q is a skillshot it's far more likely to hit a tank (or not hit anything) and you don't get that sustain back, meaning you get blown up faster.
Plus the CD reduction on new passive isn't as good as the old one, so you can't run up with R going, go EQW, wait a half second then go WQ, wait another half second and go EQ and by them probably have the ult be nearly off CD so you can pop it and run away.
The only good thing with his new Q is that you can spam the ever living hell out of it, so tear stacking on him is easier. Everything else about it is ass. Personally I think giving him a Shyvana E, Veigar Q, or Bard Q would be better. Reduce the damage but have it pass through to hit something else, or hit a secondary enemy, or inflict a minor CC or debuff of some kind (like a 5-25% slow for 1-2s or MR loss or something).
Even the 30% cdr on his ult is completely awkward now, especially with just masteries you can hit 40% right away, so any cdr from items feels like a waste
So am I the only one who's noticed the outrageous price increase on 975rp and 880rp champs that are on sale? They raised the sales price by like 300rp. I only have 15 champs left to pick up, but this is a huge price increase. They used to be 48xrp and 440rp now they're 780rp and 704rp.
On May 12 2015 12:43 Sonnington wrote: So am I the only one who's noticed the outrageous price increase on 975rp and 880rp champs that are on sale? They raised the sales price by like 300rp. I only have 15 champs left to pick up, but this is a huge price increase. They used to be 48xrp and 440rp now they're 780rp and 704rp.
wait, when did they do this? I almost always bought 6300 ip champs for RP when they were on sale, makes it so much easier to get a lot of champs.
On May 12 2015 13:03 Sonnington wrote: Nevermind, they're running a special sale where there's 16 champs currently on sale. I didn't realize because I only have a few champs left to buy.
oh okay. lol.
I only have like 5 champs left, only 1 6300ip one left.
ayy can someone give me a quick rundown of the standard top lane runes/masteries for this season? i basically never play top and am kinda interested in trying it.
Top Lane champs for the most part have fairly customized rune pages. Off the top of my head, Maokai, Gnar, Rumble have all very different rune setups. You can do generic AD (AD/AD/Flat Armor/Flat MR) and AP (AP/MPen/Flat Armor/Flat MR) if you're lacking pages.
On May 12 2015 14:41 NeoIllusions wrote: Top Lane champs for the most part have fairly customized rune pages. Off the top of my head, Maokai, Gnar, Rumble have all very different rune setups. You can do generic AD (AD/AD/Flat Armor/Flat MR) and AP (AP/MPen/Flat Armor/Flat MR) if you're lacking pages.
Yeah, day of the rework I picked Ryze top (forgetting he was reworked), and while I did OK once i hit level 7/9, it felt like I did no damage lategame even with a high mana build. Honestly not sure why they reworked Ryze in the first place.
Also damn i need to get my MMR back up, went on a loss streak after hitting gold 5 now I'm playing with all Silver 2/3 players.
On May 12 2015 19:56 57 Corvette wrote: Yeah, day of the rework I picked Ryze top (forgetting he was reworked), and while I did OK once i hit level 7/9, it felt like I did no damage lategame even with a high mana build. Honestly not sure why they reworked Ryze in the first place.
Also damn i need to get my MMR back up, went on a loss streak after hitting gold 5 now I'm playing with all Silver 2/3 players.
Ryze is/was pretty much impossible to balance, especially with his old skillset; a lanebully, hypercarry tank - yeeeah.
On May 12 2015 19:56 57 Corvette wrote: Yeah, day of the rework I picked Ryze top (forgetting he was reworked), and while I did OK once i hit level 7/9, it felt like I did no damage lategame even with a high mana build. Honestly not sure why they reworked Ryze in the first place.
Also damn i need to get my MMR back up, went on a loss streak after hitting gold 5 now I'm playing with all Silver 2/3 players.
Ryze is/was pretty much impossible to balance, especially with his old skillset; a lanebully, hypercarry tank - yeeeah.
if anything they could make ryze q pass through to a second target at reduced damage but im fine with him sucking tbh I hated when he was played every game top.
In a recent pro game at some point in a recent event Eve was played. her build was warrior. Sightstone, level 1 boots. Tanky stuff ie two crystals, then belt and cowel, then level 2 boots, then eventually banshee's and randuins.
Do you think this was based on game specific events, or is it generically a good build for Eve?
Should she build more damage or is that built last?
On May 13 2015 05:14 General_Winter wrote: In a recent pro game at some point in a recent event Eve was played. her build was warrior. Sightstone, level 1 boots. Tanky stuff ie two crystals, then belt and cowel, then level 2 boots, then eventually banshee's and randuins.
Do you think this was based on game specific events, or is it generically a good build for Eve?
Should she build more damage or is that built last?
Spoiler tagged because of the game where Eve was played, read at your own risk:
EDG ran Eve against SKT because it was meant to be a team-wide strategy to counterpick Faker's Leblanc, because it would be near impossible to predict where Eve is at, so if Faker ever roamed to try and get kills in the outer lanes Eve could just run up, ult and Q-spam down Faker and whichever other lane he went in.
It depends upon what your team needs; if it needs a tank, that's a decent build to use for Eve tank. If your team needs damage then I think you'll still get some tanky items, but probably want BotRK or an AP item (I don't remember if Eve's ratios prefer her to go AD or AP).
On May 13 2015 05:14 General_Winter wrote: In a recent pro game at some point in a recent event Eve was played. her build was warrior. Sightstone, level 1 boots. Tanky stuff ie two crystals, then belt and cowel, then level 2 boots, then eventually banshee's and randuins.
Do you think this was based on game specific events, or is it generically a good build for Eve?
Should she build more damage or is that built last?
Warrior > Tank is the "standard" competitive build.
They actually picked Evelynn for Nunu. I guess it makes sense, she can move somewhat easily to countergank, isn't too easy for him to harass since her W lets her cleanse his slow, and she's got good sustained damage if she has to fight him early. By going Warrior she gets early impact, sightstone helps reduce Nunu's influence, and then she can build tanky and act as disruption/roam.
Plus the "anti-roam" stuff yeah (but iirc Morgana was enough to prevent Faker roaming).
On May 13 2015 05:14 General_Winter wrote: In a recent pro game at some point in a recent event Eve was played. her build was warrior. Sightstone, level 1 boots. Tanky stuff ie two crystals, then belt and cowel, then level 2 boots, then eventually banshee's and randuins.
Do you think this was based on game specific events, or is it generically a good build for Eve?
Should she build more damage or is that built last?
Spoiler tagged because of the game where Eve was played, read at your own risk:
EDG ran Eve against SKT because it was meant to be a team-wide strategy to counterpick Faker's Leblanc, because it would be near impossible to predict where Eve is at, so if Faker ever roamed to try and get kills in the outer lanes Eve could just run up, ult and Q-spam down Faker and whichever other lane he went in.
It depends upon what your team needs; if it needs a tank, that's a decent build to use for Eve tank. If your team needs damage then I think you'll still get some tanky items, but probably want BotRK or an AP item (I don't remember if Eve's ratios prefer her to go AD or AP).
Actually, the Eve was to counter the Nunu, not the Leblanc. It happened to synergize nicely with the Morgana against Leblanc, but that was not the main purpose. It was implied that Eve would've been picked even if there was no Leblanc.
On May 13 2015 05:14 General_Winter wrote: In a recent pro game at some point in a recent event Eve was played. her build was warrior. Sightstone, level 1 boots. Tanky stuff ie two crystals, then belt and cowel, then level 2 boots, then eventually banshee's and randuins.
Do you think this was based on game specific events, or is it generically a good build for Eve?
Should she build more damage or is that built last?
Spoiler tagged because of the game where Eve was played, read at your own risk:
EDG ran Eve against SKT because it was meant to be a team-wide strategy to counterpick Faker's Leblanc, because it would be near impossible to predict where Eve is at, so if Faker ever roamed to try and get kills in the outer lanes Eve could just run up, ult and Q-spam down Faker and whichever other lane he went in.
It depends upon what your team needs; if it needs a tank, that's a decent build to use for Eve tank. If your team needs damage then I think you'll still get some tanky items, but probably want BotRK or an AP item (I don't remember if Eve's ratios prefer her to go AD or AP).
Actually, the Eve was to counter the Nunu, not the Leblanc. It happened to synergize nicely with the Morgana against Leblanc, but that was not the main purpose. It was implied that Eve would've been picked even if there was no Leblanc.
Don't quite see how Eve is a counter to Nunu. Certainly hasn't happened in any other pro match involving Nunu that I can recall. What/how does Eve counter?
On May 13 2015 05:14 General_Winter wrote: In a recent pro game at some point in a recent event Eve was played. her build was warrior. Sightstone, level 1 boots. Tanky stuff ie two crystals, then belt and cowel, then level 2 boots, then eventually banshee's and randuins.
Do you think this was based on game specific events, or is it generically a good build for Eve?
Should she build more damage or is that built last?
Spoiler tagged because of the game where Eve was played, read at your own risk:
EDG ran Eve against SKT because it was meant to be a team-wide strategy to counterpick Faker's Leblanc, because it would be near impossible to predict where Eve is at, so if Faker ever roamed to try and get kills in the outer lanes Eve could just run up, ult and Q-spam down Faker and whichever other lane he went in.
It depends upon what your team needs; if it needs a tank, that's a decent build to use for Eve tank. If your team needs damage then I think you'll still get some tanky items, but probably want BotRK or an AP item (I don't remember if Eve's ratios prefer her to go AD or AP).
Actually, the Eve was to counter the Nunu, not the Leblanc. It happened to synergize nicely with the Morgana against Leblanc, but that was not the main purpose. It was implied that Eve would've been picked even if there was no Leblanc.
Don't quite see how Eve is a counter to Nunu. Certainly hasn't happened in any other pro match involving Nunu that I can recall. What/how does Eve counter?
They actually picked Evelynn for Nunu. I guess it makes sense, she can move somewhat easily to countergank, isn't too easy for him to harass since her W lets her cleanse his slow, and she's got good sustained damage if she has to fight him early. By going Warrior she gets early impact, sightstone helps reduce Nunu's influence, and then she can build tanky and act as disruption/roam.
Plus the "anti-roam" stuff yeah (but iirc Morgana was enough to prevent Faker roaming).
On May 13 2015 05:14 General_Winter wrote: In a recent pro game at some point in a recent event Eve was played. her build was warrior. Sightstone, level 1 boots. Tanky stuff ie two crystals, then belt and cowel, then level 2 boots, then eventually banshee's and randuins.
Do you think this was based on game specific events, or is it generically a good build for Eve?
Should she build more damage or is that built last?
Spoiler tagged because of the game where Eve was played, read at your own risk:
EDG ran Eve against SKT because it was meant to be a team-wide strategy to counterpick Faker's Leblanc, because it would be near impossible to predict where Eve is at, so if Faker ever roamed to try and get kills in the outer lanes Eve could just run up, ult and Q-spam down Faker and whichever other lane he went in.
It depends upon what your team needs; if it needs a tank, that's a decent build to use for Eve tank. If your team needs damage then I think you'll still get some tanky items, but probably want BotRK or an AP item (I don't remember if Eve's ratios prefer her to go AD or AP).
Actually, the Eve was to counter the Nunu, not the Leblanc. It happened to synergize nicely with the Morgana against Leblanc, but that was not the main purpose. It was implied that Eve would've been picked even if there was no Leblanc.
Don't quite see how Eve is a counter to Nunu. Certainly hasn't happened in any other pro match involving Nunu that I can recall. What/how does Eve counter?
According to Clearlove, Nunu's biggest advantage is the ability to quickly change up jungle paths and efficiently counter-jungle whenever the enemy jungler is spotted. Eve is always off the map so it introduces more uncertainty on where Nunu can safely go, and also scares Nunu away from sneaking a solo dragon since for all you know Eve is nearby. If a fight breaks out Eve can chase down Nunu by cleansing the slow.
Was asking if the actual players/teams commented more about the Eve pick. I can justify Eve vs Nunu on paper retrospectively but obv that isn't the point. tyty
I figure for major events (MSI, playoffs, Worlds, etc.) a 5-7 day spoiler window is good. For LCS weekends and "regular season" stuff, a 2-4 day window is good (the games might not matter as much in regular season compared to playoffs, and people may only watch for specific teams, while playoffs/MSI/Worlds should be watched for quality play).
On May 13 2015 05:14 General_Winter wrote: In a recent pro game at some point in a recent event Eve was played. her build was warrior. Sightstone, level 1 boots. Tanky stuff ie two crystals, then belt and cowel, then level 2 boots, then eventually banshee's and randuins.
Do you think this was based on game specific events, or is it generically a good build for Eve?
Should she build more damage or is that built last?
Spoiler tagged because of the game where Eve was played, read at your own risk:
EDG ran Eve against SKT because it was meant to be a team-wide strategy to counterpick Faker's Leblanc, because it would be near impossible to predict where Eve is at, so if Faker ever roamed to try and get kills in the outer lanes Eve could just run up, ult and Q-spam down Faker and whichever other lane he went in.
It depends upon what your team needs; if it needs a tank, that's a decent build to use for Eve tank. If your team needs damage then I think you'll still get some tanky items, but probably want BotRK or an AP item (I don't remember if Eve's ratios prefer her to go AD or AP).
Actually, the Eve was to counter the Nunu, not the Leblanc. It happened to synergize nicely with the Morgana against Leblanc, but that was not the main purpose. It was implied that Eve would've been picked even if there was no Leblanc.
Don't quite see how Eve is a counter to Nunu. Certainly hasn't happened in any other pro match involving Nunu that I can recall. What/how does Eve counter?
According to Clearlove, Nunu's biggest advantage is the ability to quickly change up jungle paths and efficiently counter-jungle whenever the enemy jungler is spotted. Eve is always off the map so it introduces more uncertainty on where Nunu can safely go, and also scares Nunu away from sneaking a solo dragon since for all you know Eve is nearby. If a fight breaks out Eve can chase down Nunu by cleansing the slow.
game keeps giving me the wrong titles for mastery idk what they set as the indicator items? got mage title for morg despite having frost fang in my inventory every single game.
At level 5, you can ctrl+6 for a special emote. Riot needs to make it visible to both teams though (atm, the mastery emote can only be seen by your allies).
[13:24:52] TL_Waxangel: he;s joking [13:24:58] TL_Waxangel: "could you hire me nextr year?" [13:25:17] TL_Waxangel: and kkoma is saying [13:25:22] TL_Waxangel: sure, wait until then
Haven't read the changes myself but she's definitely a champ you have to be careful with. Her early game is still very strong so consideration needs to be taken that she's not given too much scaling into late game if they're going to keep her early game as strong as it is.
Yeah her current iteration doesn't have much usefulness outside of a very potent laning phase. Her abilities range from mediocre to flat out terrible in comparison to the other options you have for peeling and poking supports. She's a jack of all trades support and most people like to specialize on a particular strength.
On May 13 2015 21:30 Slayer91 wrote: karmas pretty terrible now but they're buffing her way too much free 20% lifesteal+spell vamp on RW??
.
Plus it's usable on monsters. Not sure if the debuff will last past the tether on Baron/Dragon, but the healing will be a huge deal on those objectives after a teamfight. I'm half wondering if Jungle Karma could be a thing now that she can use her tether there.
On May 13 2015 16:44 krndandaman wrote: edit on another note this video was pretty useful + Show Spoiler +
tl;dr
kill the little monsters first at krugs/raptors, big monsters first everywhere else.
First, this has been common knowledge since Season 3. No one in the west cared about it because frankly it didn't matter because clearing was so easy, but you saw Korean junglers always follow the rule.
And second, it annoys me that once again no one talks about the difference between optimizing for speed and optimizing for health. It's not the same! On your first clear you care about health, but on all future clears you probably care about speed.
We have plenty of people who are great resources on jungle interactions, if there's not enough talk about it I'm sure you could try to ask their opinions and create some discussion about it to tickle your fancy.
When I jungle I typically just want to make sure I'm placing myself in correct positions based on how my lanes are doing. If I have 40 less hp because I was retarded and killed the big jungle minion before the small then I guess I just have to play marginally better to overcome the deficit I put myself into.
On May 13 2015 22:41 Ketara wrote: For new Ashe, would you run crit damage runes?
You'd gimp your early-game hard due to how her passive's formula works. The formula being:
(TotalAD) x1.1 + (TotalAD) x ((CritChanceStat) x (1+(CritDamageStat)))
So if you have zero crit, your "crit" damage is only TotalAD * 1.1, meaning you get nothing from crit damage at all until you have some crit. So at level 1 your raw damage on "crit" per run type would be (with typical masteries and Doran's):
AD: 85.272
Crit %: 82.08
Crit Damage: 72.842
Between that, harder last hitting, and reduced Volley damage it's probably not a great idea. Even if you only look at "crits" you don't break even until around IE + Shiv versus AD runes, and later than that versus crit runes. The uber-late game benefit isn't worth it.
On May 13 2015 23:09 Slayer91 wrote: healing doesnt work on minions i think
Not on minions no, but using it on monsters is in the changes and the description for the healing only says "target", so it'll probably work.
tested unyielding and block, block applies before resists, unyielding after. Because unyielding applies after resists I think it's safe to say that it's worth sacrificing a point in enchanted armor, swiftness and perseverance for the block line when going 21 defense on a jungler.
Just to give an idea of how good unyielding is, if you have 100 armor/mres then against a 100dmg attack it reduces the damage by the amount 8.33 armor/mres would. against a 100 attack with 200 armor/mres, it reduces the same amount 19.15 armor/mres would, against a 200 dmg attack with 100 armor/mres it reduces the same amount 4.1 armor/mres would.
On May 13 2015 16:44 krndandaman wrote: hm anyone noticing the client being more buggy recently?
theres this really annoying bug where if you cancel queue in a premade you can't see anyone's chat and even if you remake to remedy that, theres even more weird bugs like double text inputs and fucked up friend list.
100% reproduction rate so its not random
edit on another note this video was pretty useful + Show Spoiler +
I'm starting to think that it might be worth to sacrifice the flat hp line in defense for the block+unyielding on junglers that go 21/9/0. I'm doing calcs but it's difficult to decide because it's hard to get an estimate of just how much dmg you take from small attacks and how much from big ones.
so it's like this: if you take 66 damage from an average champion damage source, then the 3% and unyielding are equivalent, both giving 3% effective hp bonus. If you take less than that from an average champion damage source, then unyielding is better and vice versa. Now, the 3% effective hp bonus has higher effectiveness when you lose some hp to the jungle. Let's say with unyielding you start fighting at half hp, because you lost half to jungle monsters; in this case Juggernaut gives you 6% effective hp increase while unyielding gives only 3% still. Unyielding works a little bit better with hp regen than Juggernaut does, but that difference is negligible. Going for Unyielding would also allow you to get the 2 Armor mastery you would otherwise have to give up (and sacrifice 12 hp in the process; definitely worth). When going for Unyielding you have to give up either Recovery or Enchanted Armor for Block which you probably don't want to do (Recovery definitely better early; Enchanted Armor possibly better late).
Sooo do you take more than 66 damage from an average champion damage source? nyaaaaaaaaa?
The way damage is actually calculated on the backend was and may still be weird, but the practical result is still additive Crit Damage since it's all summed together before being applied to your damage.
On May 13 2015 22:41 Ketara wrote: For new Ashe, would you run crit damage runes?
No. Crti chance dominates until you have over 50% base crit. More if some of that crit is from IE
Edit: crit damage stat stacks multiplicativly (so if you have 40% from runes and 50% from IE you have 1.4 x 1.5 rather than 1.9
Last I checked Crit Damage stacked additively, and that's what the wiki still claims.
Definitely doesn't on PBE. You can see the number effect yourself when you play Ashe and check your attack damage multiplier compared to your raw crit chance. Granted you have to have enough crit damage multiplier from runes to make a difference. But I was definitely getting 205% of my crit as my damage multi when I ran a full crit damage page.
It doesn't matter though. If you get so much crit damage that it matters you're weaker at basically all points in the game. A page that has 40% damage could have something like like 22.5 crit instead (don't actually have my computer handy so someone can do the actual conversions if they want). That is 30% plus once you have IE! Someone with chance and IE will have a 70% plus damage multi (10+60). Someone with IE plus damage will have a 50% multi (10+40)
The only time crit damage runes make sense is if you're guaranteed a crit without having to build crit items :p and even then they were weaker than AD for Ashe.
All of that being said, optimal page is probably some mix of damage and crit and AS. Ashe stacks the "crit attack speed" mastery really easy so she needs less overall AS (more as makes it easier to stack though). Which she can trade for crit or AD. Crit is better explicitly after the first non-Dorans AD buy (iirc) and super hilariously better after IE
The trail he leaves, I'm guessing that's for himself only to see? Cuz otherwise that'd be pretty sucky when you're being chased. Also felt they definitely could have used the trail/clone in a lot more useful way than just casting a slow field...
Also the way they coded is ult is really hamfisted, it's essentially an AoE dmg spell with a heal attached to it, as opposed to an actual time reverser....
Definitely doesn't on PBE. You can see the number effect yourself when you play Ashe and check your attack damage multiplier compared to your raw crit chance. Granted you have to have enough crit damage multiplier from runes to make a difference. But I was definitely getting 205% of my crit as my damage multi when I ran a full crit damage page.
It doesn't matter though. If you get so much crit damage that it matters you're weaker at basically all points in the game. A page that has 40% damage could have something like like 22.5 crit instead (don't actually have my computer handy so someone can do the actual conversions if they want). That is 30% plus once you have IE! Someone with chance and IE will have a 70% plus damage multi (10+60). Someone with IE plus damage will have a 50% multi (10+40)
The only time crit damage runes make sense is if you're guaranteed a crit without having to build crit items :p and even then they were weaker than AD for Ashe.
All of that being said, optimal page is probably some mix of damage and crit and AS. Ashe stacks the "crit attack speed" mastery really easy so she needs less overall AS (more as makes it easier to stack though). Which she can trade for crit or AD. Crit is better explicitly after the first non-Dorans AD buy (iirc) and super hilariously better after IE
Since the discussion is about to go all Ekko:
I asked those two questions because the math only makes sense if you failed to account for the 10% base bonus on Ashe's PBE passive.
Welp, this kit looks pretty boring indeed. Ult is just Weaver from Doto but it does some damage as well, from what I've seen on 'trailer'. Wondering which lane he will be played, jungle or top mostly.
It's weird that the ult isn't closer/similar to Weaver's ult from Dota 2, though it sort of makes sense how coding that into League would be difficult (plus it doesn't fit with how they presented Ekko; he's not a bug that goes invisible then pops out to instagib someone). It also seemed like the time shadow on the ulti has a 5s delay on it, in that once you pop the ult it takes 5s before it starts to follow you again. The uptime between first and second activation has to be pretty long, and the CD is either going to be really small or begin ticking the moment the ulti is first activated.
Also, I'm not seeing where the damage is going to come from in his kit; the Q seems more like a ranged slow/poke/harass tool for lane phase, the W seems like it's going to be used to set up for a fight or gank, and the E is his dash/gap closer. The passive looks to be where most of his damage is going to come from, but that means he has to smack someone 3 times for it, and with how Riot's been balancing passives that involve stacking lately, that means it'll be a small cooldown window before we can begin stacking the passive again on the same target.
Until we see the numbers, I think he'll actually play better as a bruiser than as an assassin; get some damage items on him, then get some beef, and use your R and W to give yourself some effective HP/sustain during a team fight.
On May 14 2015 03:29 739 wrote: Welp, this kit looks pretty boring indeed. Ult is just Weaver from Doto but it does some damage as well, from what I've seen on 'trailer'. Wondering which lane he will be played, jungle or top mostly.
It's like safe call for sololane, lol. Throw a circle to stun adc, follow with ult, then slow and dash everything with getting procs from Gnar's hyper passive.
I just geniunely hope that ult doesn't have resets, else he's going to be obnoxious, but we need base stats first to judge properly. Even though, you gotta be able to proc ult before those 5 seconds end, just to little damage, I assume.
I think we'll see him in top. The biggest two questions I have about Ekko right now are:
1. His base stats and numbers on his abilities. 2. Does he scale off AD or AP?
In the trailer/ability promo it looked like the test was with level 18s with no items. My guess is that he's going to scale off AP, as they mention that the E's bonus damage does apply on-hit and spell effects, so that means things like Muramana, Lich Bane, Luden's Echo, Nashors, Morellos, Liandrys, BotRKs, and Rylei's passives would apply.
Plus it'd fit more from a theme standpoint; most people who scale off AP are "mages" or intelligent people, and from a thematic/story standpoint playing with time like he does seems like a rather magical thing to do, even if he did it through Science!
On May 14 2015 03:41 cLutZ wrote: I think the best part of his kit is the passive.
I really like the passive. I'm weird I guess.
Are you a dirty gnar picker? Or perhaps a vayne player? It seems like the same thing, though thematically I don't understand how time resonance being stacked and popped is supposed to speed yourself up?
On May 14 2015 03:41 cLutZ wrote: I think the best part of his kit is the passive.
I really like the passive. I'm weird I guess.
Are you a dirty gnar picker? Or perhaps a vayne player? It seems like the same thing, though thematically I don't understand how time resonance being stacked and popped is supposed to speed yourself up?
Stealing time? Idklol it sounds like some the flash tier science going on there.
Let's just say speedforce
Idk what order of the lotus irelia is going to look like but I already want it
On May 14 2015 03:44 Ansibled wrote: You can ult recall and ult back?
... In theory yes? We don't know how long the time shadow lasts, or if it has a range indicator/distance on it.
Assuming no range distance and a 10s window, you in theory could ult, begin recalling, buy your items quickly than ult back to lane. But that's a pretty tight window (less than 2s) so it might not be worth it. If it lasts longer though (say, 15-20s) then and has no range distance then it'd probably be worth it.
On May 14 2015 03:41 cLutZ wrote: I think the best part of his kit is the passive.
I really like the passive. I'm weird I guess.
Are you a dirty gnar picker? Or perhaps a vayne player? It seems like the same thing, though thematically I don't understand how time resonance being stacked and popped is supposed to speed yourself up?
Stealing time? Idklol it sounds like some the flash tier science going on there.
Riot has been releasing a lot of skins, and a lot of them are pretty mediocre tbh. While it's cool they want to create thematic sets, quite a few of them are a bit of a stretch, and don't look that great.
The trail he leaves, I'm guessing that's for himself only to see? Cuz otherwise that'd be pretty sucky when you're being chased. Also felt they definitely could have used the trail/clone in a lot more useful way than just casting a slow field...
Also the way they coded is ult is really hamfisted, it's essentially an AoE dmg spell with a heal attached to it, as opposed to an actual time reverser....
The trail is either self/team-only to avoid that problem or it's like Meeps and can't be seen unless they have vision of you. I don't think the coding seem hamfisted, it's essentially Weaver ult with less survivability/room to derp.
Totally with you on the clone though. Least interesting use of an alternative reality copy ever.
On May 14 2015 03:41 cLutZ wrote: I think the best part of his kit is the passive.
I really like the passive. I'm weird I guess.
Are you a dirty gnar picker? Or perhaps a vayne player? It seems like the same thing, though thematically I don't understand how time resonance being stacked and popped is supposed to speed yourself up?
Stealing time? Idklol it sounds like some the flash tier science going on there.
Well, it'll probably have her blades be in the shape of a lotus petal, and maybe when you pop her ult the blades leave a trail of lotus petals behind it as an animation?
The trail he leaves, I'm guessing that's for himself only to see? Cuz otherwise that'd be pretty sucky when you're being chased. Also felt they definitely could have used the trail/clone in a lot more useful way than just casting a slow field...
Also the way they coded is ult is really hamfisted, it's essentially an AoE dmg spell with a heal attached to it, as opposed to an actual time reverser....
The trail is either self/team-only to avoid that problem or it's like Meeps and can't be seen unless they have vision of you. I don't think the coding seem hamfisted, it's essentially Weaver ult with less survivability/room to derp.
Totally with you on the clone though. Least interesting use of an alternative reality copy ever.
It's hamfisted because I'm sure with current League coding, it'd be much more difficult to actually have it revert to actual game state of the character (5 sec before) without royally fucking up a billion other interactions on the character. If the deathlog is anything to go by, you'd probably end up reversing 5 seconds into a grey screen, when 5 seconds ago you were actually full health.
On May 14 2015 03:44 Ansibled wrote: You can ult recall and ult back?
... In theory yes? We don't know how long the time shadow lasts, or if it has a range indicator/distance on it.
Assuming no range distance and a 10s window, you in theory could ult, begin recalling, buy your items quickly than ult back to lane. But that's a pretty tight window (less than 2s) so it might not be worth it. If it lasts longer though (say, 15-20s) then and has no range distance then it'd probably be worth it.
Judging from the video his ult simply transports him back 4 seconds when activated. There's no initial activation in the video, he simply has the trail.
If it doesn't have a range then you can recall, buy within four seconds, and then ult. Alternatively there are Teleport Shenanigans to be had.
Scip and I are discussing unyielding math and basically I think the verdict is even though block is absolute shit, unyielding is good enough to be worth it over enchanted armor unless you're a ranged champion or get a ton of resists in your kit like rammus.
You still get bladed armor 24/7 though. You trade unyielding for either slow resistance or perserverence.
The trail he leaves, I'm guessing that's for himself only to see? Cuz otherwise that'd be pretty sucky when you're being chased. Also felt they definitely could have used the trail/clone in a lot more useful way than just casting a slow field...
Also the way they coded is ult is really hamfisted, it's essentially an AoE dmg spell with a heal attached to it, as opposed to an actual time reverser....
The trail is either self/team-only to avoid that problem or it's like Meeps and can't be seen unless they have vision of you. I don't think the coding seem hamfisted, it's essentially Weaver ult with less survivability/room to derp.
Totally with you on the clone though. Least interesting use of an alternative reality copy ever.
It's hamfisted because I'm sure with current League coding, it'd be much more difficult to actually have it revert to actual game state of the character (5 sec before) without royally fucking up a billion other interactions on the character. If the deathlog is anything to go by, you'd probably end up reversing 5 seconds into a grey screen, when 5 seconds ago you were actually full health.
Ah, I wasn't thinking about stuns/DoTs etc. That said I think you can look at it two ways:
1. Riot is too lazy/hamfisted in their coding to "do this right". 2. Riot was never going to design the ability to work that way because they don't want their players to use their big ultimate and warp back into a CC'd/DoT'd state and/or reverse whatever heals/shield/buffs/etc. allies have used on them.
I'd bet money that #2 was a bigger factor than #1.
On May 14 2015 03:56 Ketara wrote: Scip and I are discussing unyielding math and basically I think the verdict is even though block is absolute shit, unyielding is good enough to be worth it over enchanted armor unless you're a ranged champion or get a ton of resists in your kit like rammus.
You still get bladed armor 24/7 though. You trade unyielding for either slow resistance or perserverence.
well in that case you just sacrifice something else for enchanted armor
The trail he leaves, I'm guessing that's for himself only to see? Cuz otherwise that'd be pretty sucky when you're being chased. Also felt they definitely could have used the trail/clone in a lot more useful way than just casting a slow field...
Also the way they coded is ult is really hamfisted, it's essentially an AoE dmg spell with a heal attached to it, as opposed to an actual time reverser....
The trail is either self/team-only to avoid that problem or it's like Meeps and can't be seen unless they have vision of you. I don't think the coding seem hamfisted, it's essentially Weaver ult with less survivability/room to derp.
Totally with you on the clone though. Least interesting use of an alternative reality copy ever.
It's hamfisted because I'm sure with current League coding, it'd be much more difficult to actually have it revert to actual game state of the character (5 sec before) without royally fucking up a billion other interactions on the character. If the deathlog is anything to go by, you'd probably end up reversing 5 seconds into a grey screen, when 5 seconds ago you were actually full health.
Ah, I wasn't thinking about stuns/DoTs etc. That said I think you can look at it two ways:
1. Riot is too lazy/hamfisted in their coding to "do this right". 2. Riot was never going to design the ability to work that way because they don't want their players to use their big ultimate and warp back into a CC'd/DoT'd state and/or reverse whatever heals/shield/buffs/etc. allies have used on them.
I'd bet money that #2 was a bigger factor than #1.
or 3. LoL base coding is too shit to implement the correct mechanics, without overhauling the entire base game code, which would probably break three quarters of the champions and how they work.
I don't see a meaningful difference between your #3 and my #1, and even if Riot's code base was pristine I guarantee you we'd never have seen Ekko's ult do anything more than it already does.
On May 14 2015 04:09 Seuss wrote: I don't see a meaningful difference between your #3 and my #1, and even if Riot's code base was pristine I guarantee you we'd never have seen Ekko's ult do anything more than it already does.
Scale of work is vastly different between #3 and #1. Though I guess I agree with your point that Riot still wouldn't implement it like I suggested, but I still think they didn't even bother trying was due to bad coding.
riot trying to destroy abyssal for ap mids on pbe + Show Spoiler +
Abyssal Scepter
[Reworked] Total Cost: X Recipe: X New stats & effects:
+30 Ability Power +250 Health +60 Magic Resist
UNIQUE Passive:Every 4 seconds emanates a pulse dealing 80 (+5 per champion level) magic damage to nearby enemy champions and reduces their Magic Resist by 15% for 10 seconds (stacks up to 3 times, up to 45%)
On May 14 2015 03:41 cLutZ wrote: I think the best part of his kit is the passive.
I really like the passive. I'm weird I guess.
Are you a dirty gnar picker? Or perhaps a vayne player? It seems like the same thing, though thematically I don't understand how time resonance being stacked and popped is supposed to speed yourself up?
I do love Vayne, not Gnar so much. But I am terrible at Vayne, she is certainly my worst AD, and probably my worst champion of any that I own. I just like the passive because it feels so intuitive. Its the kind of sustained damage thing that is very Jax-y that I really like, I guess. Plus his cool Wukong stick.
On May 14 2015 04:17 kongoline wrote: riot trying to destroy abyssal for ap mids on pbe + Show Spoiler +
Abyssal Scepter
[Reworked] Total Cost: X Recipe: X New stats & effects:
+30 Ability Power +250 Health +60 Magic Resist
UNIQUE Passive:Every 4 seconds emanates a pulse dealing 80 (+5 per champion level) magic damage to nearby enemy champions and reduces their Magic Resist by 15% for 10 seconds (stacks up to 3 times, up to 45%)
That looks brokenly good on something like Maokai, Gragas, Sej and Vlad...
On May 14 2015 03:41 cLutZ wrote: I think the best part of his kit is the passive.
I really like the passive. I'm weird I guess.
Are you a dirty gnar picker? Or perhaps a vayne player? It seems like the same thing, though thematically I don't understand how time resonance being stacked and popped is supposed to speed yourself up?
I do love Vayne, not Gnar so much. But I am terrible at Vayne, she is certainly my worst AD, and probably my worst champion of any that I own. I just like the passive because it feels so intuitive. Its the kind of sustained damage thing that is very Jax-y that I really like, I guess. Plus his cool Wukong stick.
Imo the best part of his kit is his E, it has a lot of potential for outplay. Baiting people by dashing away, but then autoing backwards with the increased range to bait in squishies when being chased.
Btw, what happened to the PBE ability leaks for Ekko? (I remember a bunch of timey-wimey skills; there was some tribunal of the master passive shit and also a black hole ability or something...) Were they fake or just random artifacts datamined that have absolutely no significance or are they something for a yet-unannounced champ?
With how he's presented, AD looks more likely (I'd go with "appearance" but Kayle and Diana are AP; however Kayle used to be able to do both and is an original 40, and Diana they dunno what to do with her and want to reduce her damage, while Ekko is presented as an assassin).
Passive: if you look at the debuff particle under Vi, there's a circle deleting itself like there is for Udyr or Nautilus. It lasts something like 2 seconds though.
W looks dumb because they use a clone for it and... is that all? Do you really need to put a clone? Why not use it for something where it's really needed? It feels like a failed gimmick.
His R... does huge damage, it looks like. Also, it's almost instant, and you can use it whenever you want. So if you stand your ground, you get the damage for sure as long as you don't run in a straight-line, along with the heal. That's super underwhelming, why not amp up the rewind part? They said he has low ratios, why not use that by making his ult refund his cooldowns, and remove the damage from it? Or give his ult several charges so he can keep rewinding? His ult also makes him "untargetable and invulnerable" so you can dodge stuff if you time it right.
Also if you read the description activating the ult sends him back. It's not "activate, then for a short duration you can reactivate to go 5s back", the trail appears once you level your ult. Which is meh. It makes him backloaded (which isn't wrong, if he has low ratios and a passive execute on W then it's already how he works) because he doesn't really take risks unless (again) he's running straight from the enemy. If you create a window by having him activate the ult first, with a limited reactivation time, he has to play things tighter.
The W with the clone still bugs me the most, it's probably the worst ability design as of recent. If you can throw a Slow field, why the fuck would you create a clone to do it for you? Unless there's no cast time because of this, it's really fucking stupid.
A Rioter confirmed that the trail is always on so long as hit ult is on cooldown.
I'm kinda disappointed with Ekko. So much potential that was untapped. It's like CLG's poster champion :[
On May 14 2015 04:29 wei2coolman wrote: The W with the clone still bugs me the most, it's probably the worst ability design as of recent. If you can throw a Slow field, why the fuck would you create a clone to do it for you? Unless there's no cast time because of this, it's really fucking stupid.
Yea...I'm hoping it's a no cast time skill. When I saw the vid I was so confused - why the fuck is there a clone...
On May 14 2015 04:17 kongoline wrote: riot trying to destroy abyssal for ap mids on pbe + Show Spoiler +
Abyssal Scepter
[Reworked] Total Cost: X Recipe: X New stats & effects:
+30 Ability Power +250 Health +60 Magic Resist
UNIQUE Passive:Every 4 seconds emanates a pulse dealing 80 (+5 per champion level) magic damage to nearby enemy champions and reduces their Magic Resist by 15% for 10 seconds (stacks up to 3 times, up to 45%)
On May 14 2015 04:12 Fildun wrote: @Scip/other mathcrafters, could you upload a pic of the ideal mastery page (both 9/21 and 21/9) to imgur and post a link?
suggested 9/21/0: http://i.imgur.com/31IEE7Y.jpg?1 possible changes champions: 10% slow reduction instead of perseverance (depending on enemy champions), another point in perseverance instead of 10% crit reduction (if the enemy has urgot ADC), 2 points in enchanted armor instead of a point in perseverance and legendary guardian (when playing Rammus). The 9 in offense depend on your champion obviously. I'm still not sure about 21/9/0.
On May 14 2015 04:17 kongoline wrote: riot trying to destroy abyssal for ap mids on pbe + Show Spoiler +
Abyssal Scepter
[Reworked] Total Cost: X Recipe: X New stats & effects:
+30 Ability Power +250 Health +60 Magic Resist
UNIQUE Passive:Every 4 seconds emanates a pulse dealing 80 (+5 per champion level) magic damage to nearby enemy champions and reduces their Magic Resist by 15% for 10 seconds (stacks up to 3 times, up to 45%)
Just what tanks needed more help killing carries.
I wish they would work on defensive items for carries instead, and fix crit scaling for AD's.
Ugh, all those skins are bad, even the Irelia one.... Knockout Lee Sin doesn't make sense... at least MT Lee Sin made sense...
On May 14 2015 04:37 GhandiEAGLE wrote: Damn was hoping Nightmare Tryndamere would be a reference to Nightmare from Soul Calibur. Bummer, it looks kinda lame now.
tbh, the skin looks more like executioner than "nightmare", similar to executioner mundo.
meh. super disappointed in his ult. it's just a shitty heal with a boring pbaoe nuke :[
his W also looks kinda shit too unless there's no cast time. It already has a 3 second delay... If it doesn't have a cast time it'll be reasonably legit. 2.25 large aoe stun is no joke.
it also looks like Ekko is 100% an AP champ, but I'm sure some people will try to play him as an AD bruiser
On May 14 2015 04:45 Ryuu314 wrote: meh. super disappointed in his ult. it's just a shitty heal with a boring pbaoe nuke :[
I'm guessing they put damage on his ult so his pre-6 kit wouldn't be overtuned to make up for a non-damage ulti.
yea iunno. I guess I was just hoping for an actual "time-rewind" ult. Instead of healing for X+%damage taken it would heal for 100% damage taken - 100% hp healed in last X seconds and have the ult scale by how long the X seconds is. So something like revert hp level back to where it was 2/3/4 seconds ago.
On May 14 2015 04:12 Fildun wrote: @Scip/other mathcrafters, could you upload a pic of the ideal mastery page (both 9/21 and 21/9) to imgur and post a link?
suggested 9/21/0: http://i.imgur.com/31IEE7Y.jpg?1 possible changes champions: 10% slow reduction instead of perseverance (depending on enemy champions), another point in perseverance instead of 10% crit reduction (if the enemy has urgot ADC), 2 points in enchanted armor instead of a point in perseverance and legendary guardian (when playing Rammus). The 9 in offense depend on your champion obviously. I'm still not sure about 21/9/0.
i usually just go full yolo ignore legendary guardian(700 range is pretty short) and perseverance instead get resistance + evasive + enchanted armor
On May 14 2015 04:42 Zdrastochye wrote: Just needs resets and he's AP Aatrox/Lucian pre-release already.
more like AP rengar on release.
On May 14 2015 04:45 Ryuu314 wrote: meh. super disappointed in his ult. it's just a shitty heal with a boring pbaoe nuke :[
I'm guessing they put damage on his ult so his pre-6 kit wouldn't be overtuned to make up for a non-damage ulti.
yea iunno. I guess I was just hoping for an actual "time-rewind" ult. Instead of healing for X+%damage taken it would heal for 100% damage taken - 100% hp healed in last X seconds and have the ult scale by how long the X seconds is. So something like revert hp level back to where it was 2/3/4 seconds ago.
I wish they attached more background info or lore into the abilities to champions. So something along the lines of "reverting himself [ekko] back in time tears a violent hole in space/time continuum creating a resonance blast dealing damage to those around him when he reverts back" It would make riot think before they implement random shit like he creates a clone to throw slow field, when could just toss the damn thing physically.... lol.
I'm much bigger fan of designing champ abilities around lore first, then making mechanics/numbers fit that, instead of the other way around.
On May 14 2015 04:12 Fildun wrote: @Scip/other mathcrafters, could you upload a pic of the ideal mastery page (both 9/21 and 21/9) to imgur and post a link?
suggested 9/21/0: http://i.imgur.com/31IEE7Y.jpg?1 possible changes champions: 10% slow reduction instead of perseverance (depending on enemy champions), another point in perseverance instead of 10% crit reduction (if the enemy has urgot ADC), 2 points in enchanted armor instead of a point in perseverance and legendary guardian (when playing Rammus). The 9 in offense depend on your champion obviously. I'm still not sure about 21/9/0.
i usually just go full yolo ignore legendary guardian(700 range is pretty short) and perseverance instead get resistance + evasive + enchanted armor
possibly viable against a LOT of AoE magic damage. 700 range is fairly short but if you're playing a cinderhulk jungler you're probably close to at least 3 people for most of the teamfight. Evasive line is obviously better for 1v1/2v2s vs. magic dmg champs though.
His other damage ratios aren't amazing. 0.8 on his Q if you hit with both parts (the bulk of it on the return) and 0.2 on his blink attack. 2.3 total isn't anything special.
You can also see his trail so long as you have vision of him, as I suspected, so it's going to be hard to catch multiple people with it. Still, the salt from people wandering into brush will be real.
On May 14 2015 04:58 Seuss wrote: His other damage ratios aren't amazing. 0.8 on his Q if you hit with both parts (the bulk of it on the return) and 0.2 on his blink attack. 2.3 total isn't anything special.
You can also see his trail so long as you have vision of him, as I suspected, so it's going to be hard to catch multiple people with it. Still, the salt from people wandering into brush will be real.
Looks like the goal is to set up a W>R wombo to me.
On May 14 2015 04:58 Seuss wrote: His other damage ratios aren't amazing. 0.8 on his Q if you hit with both parts (the bulk of it on the return) and 0.2 on his blink attack. 2.3 total isn't anything special.
You can also see his trail so long as you have vision of him, as I suspected, so it's going to be hard to catch multiple people with it. Still, the salt from people wandering into brush will be real.
it goes up to 3.6 if you land the ult though. on top of that, depending on whether W has a cast time and how telegraphed the projectile is, he could be pretty gross in his nuke potential.
I can imagine scenarios where he's being chased, throws his W on his position and keeps running. Counts to 3 then hits R for #LCSBIGPLAYS
On May 14 2015 04:58 Seuss wrote: His other damage ratios aren't amazing. 0.8 on his Q if you hit with both parts (the bulk of it on the return) and 0.2 on his blink attack. 2.3 total isn't anything special.
You can also see his trail so long as you have vision of him, as I suspected, so it's going to be hard to catch multiple people with it. Still, the salt from people wandering into brush will be real.
Regnar's double W was only 2.0 ratio, still enough to make AP rengar cancer as hell. Not to mention with Ludens that's plenty of ratio to be annoying as fuck.
So the Q's ratio is weaker on the outward toss and hit, but after it expands and returns it does more damage and the ratio is better? I guess that sort of makes sense, as you throw a compact, non-activated version out then have the activated version return. It doesn't hit the same target twice though, right? Cause otherwise with proper positioning and skillshot that's 280 damage at level 9 at least, not including the slow and ratios on the two hits.
W's passive is... Shit tier? Like you get an extra % damage based on their missing health when they're at/below 30% HP. So the passive basically just lets you make sure you kill someone when they're low. Meanwhile, the stun field is OP as all hell; throw it out, dash in, boom, get a shield AND stun your target for 2.25 seconds at rank 1? What is this, Veigar wall all over again?
The E is fine, it's probably going to be what you use to engage on a champ after stunning them with W.
The ulti's damage is dumb, especially that ratio. Like you just pop it, dash in with E, stun with W, then walk away until your shadow gets to where the stunned enemies are, reactivate it and watch them blow up with an AoE that heals you and does insane damage to enemies nearby? And it seems like once you hit 6 and skill the ulti you get the ghost trail following you around wherever you walk. There is no range indicator/distance listed, so it could lead to recall shenanigans where you recall, buy items and quickly ulti back to lane.
On May 14 2015 04:12 Fildun wrote: @Scip/other mathcrafters, could you upload a pic of the ideal mastery page (both 9/21 and 21/9) to imgur and post a link?
suggested 9/21/0: http://i.imgur.com/31IEE7Y.jpg?1 possible changes champions: 10% slow reduction instead of perseverance (depending on enemy champions), another point in perseverance instead of 10% crit reduction (if the enemy has urgot ADC), 2 points in enchanted armor instead of a point in perseverance and legendary guardian (when playing Rammus). The 9 in offense depend on your champion obviously. I'm still not sure about 21/9/0.
i usually just go full yolo ignore legendary guardian(700 range is pretty short) and perseverance instead get resistance + evasive + enchanted armor
why
its not like 1 point in perseverance is going to change anything ( its 3 points or nothing mastery imo, i get it often just not vs aoe comps which is like every game nowadays) legendary guardian doesnt help in 1v1/skirmishes plus its only 700 range so doesnt guarantee full effect in team fights either i prefer to get 5% from enchanted armor in that case and + 5mr, -4% aoe magic dmg which is pretty op
On May 14 2015 04:58 JimmiC wrote: Just won a game with a jungler who did 33 damage to champs. He did have a disconnect but I still find it amazing. It's by far the least I have seen that is still above 0. impressive!
What were his KDA numbers? 33 damage seems like an accomplishment lol.
On May 14 2015 04:58 Seuss wrote: His other damage ratios aren't amazing. 0.8 on his Q if you hit with both parts (the bulk of it on the return) and 0.2 on his blink attack. 2.3 total isn't anything special.
You can also see his trail so long as you have vision of him, as I suspected, so it's going to be hard to catch multiple people with it. Still, the salt from people wandering into brush will be real.
Looks like the goal is to set up a W>R wombo to me.
You need help though. Your stun is only 2.25 seconds, and your ult trail is 4 seconds ago. It'll be tricky.
On May 14 2015 05:03 Ryuu314 wrote: it goes up to 3.6 if you land the ult though. on top of that, depending on whether W has a cast time and how telegraphed the projectile is, he could be pretty gross in his nuke potential.
I can imagine scenarios where he's being chased, throws his W on his position and keeps running. Counts to 3 then hits R for #LCSBIGPLAYS
2.3 includes all of his damage ratios (except the W passive, which is missing health %). W active doesn't do damage, it just gives Ekko a shield with a 0.8 ratio.
On May 14 2015 04:58 Seuss wrote: His other damage ratios aren't amazing. 0.8 on his Q if you hit with both parts (the bulk of it on the return) and 0.2 on his blink attack. 2.3 total isn't anything special.
You can also see his trail so long as you have vision of him, as I suspected, so it's going to be hard to catch multiple people with it. Still, the salt from people wandering into brush will be real.
Regnar's double W was only 2.0 ratio, still enough to make AP rengar cancer as hell. Not to mention with Ludens that's plenty of ratio to be annoying as fuck.
Right, but Rengar's double W didn't have a 90 second CD.
On May 14 2015 05:04 Kinie wrote: So the Q's ratio is weaker on the outward toss and hit, but after it expands and returns it does more damage and the ratio is better? I guess that sort of makes sense, as you throw a compact, non-activated version out then have the activated version return. It doesn't hit the same target twice though, right? Cause otherwise with proper positioning and skillshot that's 280 damage at level 9 at least, not including the slow and ratios on the two hits.
W's passive is... Shit tier? Like you get an extra % damage based on their missing health when they're at/below 30% HP. So the passive basically just lets you make sure you kill someone when they're low. Meanwhile, the stun field is OP as all hell; throw it out, dash in, boom, get a shield AND stun your target for 2.25 seconds at rank 1? What is this, Veigar wall all over again?
The E is fine, it's probably going to be what you use to engage on a champ after stunning them with W.
The ulti's damage is dumb, especially that ratio. Like you just pop it, dash in with E, stun with W, then walk away until your shadow gets to where the stunned enemies are, reactivate it and watch them blow up with an AoE that heals you and does insane damage to enemies nearby? And it seems like once you hit 6 and skill the ulti you get the ghost trail following you around wherever you walk. There is no range indicator/distance listed, so it could lead to recall shenanigans where you recall, buy items and quickly ulti back to lane.
W has a 3 second delay though. That's fucking huge. Then if it has a cast time, that's probably going to end up being 3~3.5 second delay from between casting the spell and it landing. Then you have to actually walk/E/R/flash into the field, which gives the enemy even more time to gtfo.
On May 14 2015 05:03 Ryuu314 wrote: it goes up to 3.6 if you land the ult though. on top of that, depending on whether W has a cast time and how telegraphed the projectile is, he could be pretty gross in his nuke potential.
I can imagine scenarios where he's being chased, throws his W on his position and keeps running. Counts to 3 then hits R for #LCSBIGPLAYS
2.3 includes his Q and E damage ratios, though I'm excluding the W passive. W active doesn't do damage, it just gives Ekko a shield with a 0.8 ratio.
1.3 (from ult) +2.3 (Q+E) is 3.6... I mentioned the W since it lets him set up his ult nuke.
On May 14 2015 05:08 wei2coolman wrote: Just noticed, Ekko's ult doesn't cost mana....
Yeah, but considering how expensive his abilities are to begin with, I think that's needed. We still don't know his base stats though, so it could be that he has insane base mana regen.
EPT
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