I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and I wanted to get TL's opinion on it.
It feels like to me, that the Hydra is slowly becoming a unit that will see extremely little, if no, competitive play.
This is not intended necessarily to be a balance discussion, just a reflection on current trends in pro-level strategy.
For the longest time, Hydras have been almost entirely unused in ZvT, and that looks set to stay the same way. This is due largely to their fragile nature, and thus they are very weak to siege tanks. Their mobility off creep is also terrible, and mobility is an extremely important part of ZvT.
ZvZ has seen a fair bit of Roach-Hydra play, but more and more professionals seem to be favouring a more Roach heavy Infestor play. While Hydras do still see use due to their superior range, many pros are choosing to forgo the heavy gas investment in favour of more Infestors.
After Patch 1.3, we can expect Infestors to replace Hydras' DPS role entirely, with the added bonus damage to armored units; making Roach-Infestor likely to be the ground unit mix of choice. (Thanks to Mailing for pointing this out.)
However, the main thing on my mind is the current state of ZvP. ZvP has long been considered the main role of the Hydra, as it unquestionably wrecks gateway units. However, more and more pros seem to be favouring pure Roach for their ground army, as Hydras are so incredibly weak to Collossus. The problem is that Hydras are a hefty gas investment, and while they do significant damage, they are absolutely wrecked by a critical mass of Collossus. Thus more and more Zerg players are favouring the beefier roach.
This is a problem for Blizzard, as any unit which becomes unused is somewhat of a white elephant. The problem isn't necessarily that the Hydra is a BAD unit, it seems to be more that it does not have a definite role to fill anymore.
I feel that more and more, we will be seeing Hydras used less in competitive play, until contemporary strategies begin to omit them entirely.
Perhaps the real issue with the Hydra is that it does not seem to fit the mould of a Zerg unit. The Hydra is a glass cannon, which seems at complete odds with the Zerg theme of cheap, massable weak units.
I feel the need to emphasise here that this is NOT a balance QQ. I do not think the Hydra needs to be improved or buffed, I just think it needs to be changed. I don't think it functions well as a Zerg unit in its current state.
Do you think the Hydra's days in competitive play are numbered?
tl;dr - The Hydra is struggling to fulfill a significant role in the matchups, and may soon become largely unused in its current state. This is most notable in ZvP.
Poll: Do you think the Hydra is a "dying" unit?
Yes. (1788)
67%
No. (522)
19%
Too soon to tell. (371)
14%
2681 total votes
Your vote: Do you think the Hydra is a "dying" unit?
(Vote): Yes. (Vote): No. (Vote): Too soon to tell.
Poll: Do you think the Hydra needs to be changed?
Yes, it cannot remain as it is. (1695)
75%
I think the game will evolve to make it more viable. (351)
15%
No, it's perfectly fine. (220)
10%
2266 total votes
Your vote: Do you think the Hydra needs to be changed?
(Vote): Yes, it cannot remain as it is. (Vote): No, it's perfectly fine. (Vote): I think the game will evolve to make it more viable.
i wonder if a bronze protoss player was the first to vote. and this probably will get closed because it will be considered balance.
on topic: i believe the hydra is too imobile and and flaky and i would rather have 1 roach than 2 hydras. k not really. but i'd rather have a roach than a hydra.
edit: but i'd take a hydraroach over a hydra--or a roach any day.
well with all balance aside. and just looking at it from a spectators point of view.
its boring. doesnt fit zerg. i mean honestly how does slow glass cannon dps fit in with a swarming bee hive race??? and well, yeah it just doesnt fit the game.
the only reason id ever use it is if i didnt have enough queens and needed some quick AA.
then just ignore them the rest of the game. because well yeah....they just dont fit.
i've been seeing a small resurgence of hydra in zvz and zvt, but it's almost never effective lol.
i think hydras CAN be useful in zvp (most obvious uses are against 4gate immortal pushes or pheonixes), but i really dislike them on larger maps. harder to spread creep, harder to make them mobile enough to do anything, and its easier for pheonixes to pick them off in low numbers. i think the best fix would be for their upgrade to give +2 range, it wouldn't break the game or anything (as they're too weak right now) but give the hydra a much more useful role (a weak but powerful "siege" unit).
There's something wrong with the unit, I just cannot say what. I mean the hydra isn't a bad unit on paper, but the glass cannon role doesn't really fit well with the 2 units your opponent will be massing no matter what(tank/colossi) counter them. Imo: If they were given more hp, they'd be to strong, if they were given more speed, they'd be to strong, if they were given more dmg, they'd be to strong.
In essence, I think like you, that their role needs to be seriously looked at and the unit totally changed. Mind this will never happen before HotS.
I'll only use them to hold off certain 1 base protoss pushes. However if the game goes towards a macro game,.... I prefer corruptors to do my anti-air damage. With the templar/colossus/siege tank units available, the hydra is too cost and supply ineffective.
I haven't used hydras in ZvZ in a while either unless i'm dealing with a 1 base muta rush. Even then, at some point I stop hydra production for infestor roach.
hydra zvp imo is very strong since it pretty much owns all gateway units. people say that its a dying unit only because protoss has been recently turning towards non-gateway units as their main go-to units such as the collosus, void ray. however zvt i feel like they are a little weak.
The problem with Hydra at the moment is that as soon as you take them off creep, you're essentially going all in with them, as retreat is not an option. ZvZ is currently the only matchup where hydras really see use, or they get broken out as an AA unit in ZvP.
The easiest/best change to hydras imo would be to give them tunnelling claws, this would make people more willing to use them in their army in ZvP because they can do FF avoidance just like with roaches, currently, if you burrow to avoid FF, your hydras sit still and die, and if you burrow your roaches only, theyre not tanking for your hydras anymore and are dying. The problem mainly is that hydras don't actually work too great with roaches! Apart from being able to outrange them, they still sit at perfect collosus range though. In ZvZ, really you just use them to get an extra bit of DPS out due to range where your roaches wouldn't, it's really map dependent, again, infestors are better than hydras. I can't imagine a situation where you'd build Hydras in ZvT, there's the fungal/hydra range trick, but that's about to become even worse with the new patch.
as it stands in my opinion is that, Hydra dps in large numbers is great, survivability on the other hand not so much, well positioned hydras flanking can deal massive dmg when maneuvered correctly (think shattered temple, engaging a toss ball in the middle of the map from 2-3 angles. The problem i personally find is that it is too hard to get them into position quick enough so the fact of the matter is,
glass cannon unit's always seem underpowered in a straight up fights but i think in the future ( im thinking Moon's drop play in gsl) zergs will find that hydras can be of great use in different ways, a buff may be needed because off creep they are basically useless, so i'd only suggest movement speed increase off creep OR an hp increase but both seem overkill
im just spit-ballin my ideas here so dont take too much offense if you do not agree :D
It's definitely a balance discussion. Just compare Hydras, a tier 2 unit, to Marines, and it becomes rather obvious why top tier players don't use them.
The fact that the hydralisk's strength is regarded to be coming in the form of it wrecking gateway units is incredibly stupid for the sole fact that pretty much everything wrecks Gateway units. Thors, tanks, marines, marauders, roaches are all staples of the vrs P matchup and they all wreck Gateway units. If it weren't for the P support units, P would never win any games.
Gateway units are awful and the hydralisk's role being "anti-gateway" is laughable. It's simply a really poorly designed unit and it's only value is as one of the three anti-air options in ZvZ, along with queens and infestors which might be the better alternatives anyways.
Here is the main problem with the Hydra. THe entire Zerg Army is about being moble. Zerglings are fast... Roaches and infestors move while burrowed. same goes for muta ultra.
Now the problem with Hydra's is that it just doesn't fit. Hydras are way to slow off creep to the point where you can't attack unless you want to sacrifice every hydra. Yeah hydra's are good on creep but thats something that is countered by a 50 Energy scan/ raven, or a 75-25 observer.
I think it's worth noting that the infestor changes were just being tested, they are in no way a sure thing. at least that's my understanding. just like the bunker timing in 1.2 ptr was not implemented.
as well, hydras are still very powerful in conjunction with roaches. as well, they are the response to p stargate play. i don't think this will change with any infestor change.
do hydras need something? i'm not sure, but i don't really think so.
Yeah a unit that compeltely trumps all protoss infantry is garbage. If there is a reason you won't see a lot of hydras in late game play is because of colossi.
Apparently the Hydra used to have 90 HP and now has 80. Maybe having 90 HP would make them a tad bit better? I know everyone talks about how slow they are but maybe a super small buff like that HP buff will make them more viable.
I think we're going to see the hydralisk come back in a big way once moon and mooglade's roach hydra drop style against protoss becomes popular. Being able to lay down creep with overlords to let them escape and be micro'd as well as dropping them in bases and being able to carry them out makes them much more versatile. Also dropped roaches and hydras can rape stalker colossus armies due to the fact that carpet bombing roaches and hydras spaces them out enough that colossi can rarely hit more than two units at a time. it might not become a staple in every game but Zergs have been making a lot of progress in the last few weeks and I think overlord drops are going to be a big part of the game soon once people realize that you can't simply use them the way Terrans use medivacs.
Hydras serve a purpose in the game; not every unit can be a core unit..
They have high enough DPS to tear through a zerg or gateway army but need the meatshield roach to tank the damage because they are so fragile; they can serve an important role by forcing a Protoss into Collossus play (they were probably heading there anyway) which allows you to prepare with corruptors; are they slow? Yes, but creep spread is an important part of any zerg game..
They serve a purpose; just because they are not a CORE unit does not mean they need to be changed.. I think the speed issue can be a problem but i don't see how everything should be simple; i imagine the speed is a sacrifice for DPS?
On March 08 2011 09:12 TheKanAry wrote: You know, the Lurker actually fits the role the Hydra was supposed to fill, better than the Hydra.
I mean, the Hydra is generally considered close-range artillery, right? Well, the Lurker actually IS close range artillery.
Just food for thought.
Not exactly. Banelings took over the role of the Lurker. The Lurker was designed to do mass aoe damage and to rape bio. Hydralisk are the zerg anti-air unit.
I do think that if the high templar amulet nerf goes through and more Protoss players start to favor colossi even more heavily because of it, hydras will be even less useful
At the moment though, I see a decent amount of hydralisk use in my PvZ games that go past the 15-minute mark.
Hydras have their place, in ZvP and ZvZ. However due to other options we will never see hydras in particular high number.
They really are support units just to add a little more Dps to your army compositions. Though on narrower maps in ZvZ its favorable to go a slightly more Hydra heavy composition due to the range advantage.
Its kinda sad such an iconic unit of the Zerg Swarm has lost its fighting luster.
edit: I'm actually wondering now if it would be worth it to get drops, Load like 6 overlords with hydras and have them follow my roaches. Then when the action occurs drop them for their favorable Dps. Since the Dps they offer is significant.
On March 08 2011 09:13 CuteSmallHydra wrote: The fact that the hydralisk's strength is regarded to be coming in the form of it wrecking gateway units is incredibly stupid for the sole fact that pretty much everything wrecks Gateway units. Thors, tanks, marines, marauders, roaches are all staples of the vrs P matchup and they all wreck Gateway units. If it weren't for the P support units, P would never win any games.
Gateway units are awful and the hydralisk's role being "anti-gateway" is laughable. It's simply a really poorly designed unit and it's only value is as one of the three anti-air options in ZvZ, along with queens and infestors which might be the better alternatives anyways.
Do you count sentries as 'gateway' or as 'support' units?
well it deals good dps has nice range and has low health ( which i think is a good thing since your forced to micro good with them)
i also thought of carpet drop hydras to spread them out vs aoe works good vs toss
but well... terran has not only tanks but also the marines so nahh
i think what makes the hydra so weak is its speed off creep
for example: your being aggressive with some roaches but teched t2 oh he plays air hydra tech ... then no aggression anymore you cant walk across the map with these things a speed upgrade like the roach one would be nice
On March 08 2011 09:06 cuppatea wrote: Too weak, too slow. It's a garbage unit.
I was having huge problems against Protoss for the longest time until I just stopped making Hydra.
I think a big part of the problem is we expect the Hydra to live up to its supremacy in BW.
Hydra's in BW were a really powerful unit: cost effective, could be produced in bulk, and had good DPS versus both air and ground, and were relatively mobile.
Hydra's are extremely fragile in SC2, and extremely immobile compared to other units without creep. As Blizzard stated, part of the reason Hydra's have received such a change is they'd be too powerful if they were mobile, high DPS, AND hard to kill (much like they were in BW).
If we look at a similar example: the dragoon. The dragoon was vital to a Protoss army in BW. It's SC2 replacement, the Stalker, probably doesn't live up to the dragoon (ignoring things like Blink). People complain and complain about the Stalker being a "trash" unit at times, but protoss players have come to adjust to them.
I think a similar approach needs to be taken with Hydras. As mentioned, roaches are often favored over the Hydra. With the roach, a cost-effective, powerful unit, I don't see why people should worry about the Hydra becoming "useless" It should be regarded as more of a supplement unit, something to add high DPS to your army mix.
Afterall, the reaper was almost unused for a long while, but finally people are inventing unique strategies that implement them EXTREMELY well. I personally think it's a matter of time before we discover the true potential for hydras.
Problem is i think alot of Z players (even the better ones) still dont use everything in their matchup, toss players have evolved to void rays phonix templar dts collsus where when am playing Z if it isnt muta ling i know its roach hydra with corruptors, they dont use overseerers alot (at my level (low masters/high dimond) ) and i almost never see corruption! Hydras are an amazing unit, they wreak immortals , and gateway units and P air, their weakness is collsus and i think with good corruption + overseer spew (not sure of the name) that could minimize it, Problem at the moment is P players are getting 4-5 collsus and Zerg still make hydra and then complain when they loose? makes no sense!
Feels more like you should just make roach because it already beats everything on the ground that hydras do outside of immortals but it doesn't fall over to templar/colossus. If you need AA just go corruptor or muta depending on if the are going phoenix or vr. Mix in speedlings to cover immortals if they go that way and you're done.
It doesn't appear to me that the hydra is dying at all. I think it's getting used even more now... (just not in ZvT).
Going hydras before roaches against any stargate play seems to work well in ZvP (see moon in IEM). And pure roach corruptor is just not supply-efficient late game. IMO, you have to get hydras too. Yes hydras die really fast to colossi, but if you make enough corruptors, you can kill the colossi before they get through the roaches to your hydras. The infestor change may affect this a bit, because with the high dps, particularly vs armored that infestors have, you can really do a lot of damage to the tightly clumped protoss ball, but really it's just like a weaker storm with disable, and no one uses storm in PvP, so I'm not completely convinced that it can really replace hydras...
And roach hydra is just as popular as roach infestor in ZvZ currently. The infestor change, however, will make it harder to shut down mutas with fungal (due to the projectile nature), which will mean you need hydras to counter mutas on small maps (big maps you probably just have to go for corruptors).
I also thought about it for a while, but came to the conclusion that more than the Hydra, the creep mechanic needs a change. It just sucks, that you almost never have Creep where you actually fight! If you could bring the creep in some way or form better to the Enemy, Hydras would do much better.
It has limited use but I don't think they need to change it. It is kinda like the firebat in broodwar (with a different role of course). You don't need them every game but in the right situation they will save your ass or crush an opponent with a certain extreme army composition.
I do hope they bring back the lurker or give the hydra some other morph in an expansion. I think it would be cool if a purely-for-on-creep-defense hydra could turn into something else when it came time for offense.
As is the Hydra should never see usage in ZvT. Two stimmed Marines kill one Hydralisk with the Grooved Spines upgrade.
I think once the Protoss player gets Colossi out in ZvP the Hydras are no more than a waste of supply. They deal virtually no damage before they're killed and they are too slow to retreat or maneuver. Whoever said Hydras need a 150/150 speed upgrade hit the nail on the head. That would make Hydras much more usable in the matchup.
I still don't see a usage for them in ZvT though. You'd have to rework the whole unit. Something like a 'Light' classification Siege Tank might work. But that sounds too much like an above-ground Lurker.
I agree with a lot of others in that the Hydralisk doesn't fit the style. I was thinking of reducing their attack speed, upping their range a bit and that's fine... possibly make them 1 supply if you really kill their attack speed though. (Damage needs to stay the same, otherwise it's like having a cheaper, longer-ranged roach).
Hydras are useless ? I guess no one here watched Moon at IEM using nothing but hydras ? Don't forget that they are the only massable anti air option for zerg. Look for a zerg that goes nothing but roaches when a protoss opens stargate or 2 stargates.
I have started using hydra/ling drops and 2 hatch hydra timing attacks a lot lately in ZvP. Dropping hydra is the best thing and increase their mobility a lot. Dropping hydras is also better than nydus worms because overlords can't be killed by workers ^^
Am i the only one who feels for the hydras damage(which is good vs everything..) and hp(which is the same as bw..)
that its main problem is its a ..2 supply unit? why not lower it back down to 75/25 and make it 1 supply like in broodwar(some things may have to be tweaked obviously)
On March 08 2011 09:36 regulator_mk wrote: It doesn't appear to me that the hydra is dying at all. I think it's getting used even more now... (just not in ZvT).
Going hydras before roaches against any stargate play seems to work well in ZvP (see moon in IEM). And pure roach corruptor is just not supply-efficient late game. IMO, you have to get hydras too. Yes hydras die really fast to colossi, but if you make enough corruptors, you can kill the colossi before they get through the roaches to your hydras. The infestor change may affect this a bit, because with the high dps, particularly vs armored that infestors have, you can really do a lot of damage to the tightly clumped protoss ball, but really it's just like a weaker storm with disable, and no one uses storm in PvP, so I'm not completely convinced that it can really replace hydras...
And roach hydra is just as popular as roach infestor in ZvZ currently. The infestor change, however, will make it harder to shut down mutas with fungal (due to the projectile nature), which will mean you need hydras to counter mutas on small maps (big maps you probably just have to go for corruptors).
Alternatively though, Roach/infestor will now ream roach/hydra as the fungal damage against armored (roach) is being increased, assuming all changes go through. So while hydra may be the better counter to muta, infestor will now be a better counter to roaches. And at least right now i see roach/hydra much mroe than any muta builds.
The Hydra is still an incredible useful unit, most notably for helping to defend ZVP in the mid-early game as well as offer a good unit for ZvZ.
You're saying pros favor Infestors over hydras. Actually, that is more a matter of personal choice. For example, Idra prefers to go Hydra in ZvZ. Infestors are only better if you manage to fungal them alot before the battle, but hydras-roach is better in the battle itself(due to hydras having farther range.)
Furthormore, roach hydra in ZvT is a strategy that really has been(for the most part) unexplored. Roaches +hydras actually do very well vs terran(hydras in particular), its just that vs tanks they have the biggest problems. But recently I have been going for drops, and just dropping on top of tanks and its very very very very very very effective. For a replay, click here
The Hydra is a special unit for sure, being its not that good throughout the entire game, but only useful in particular parts. But dead? Far from it!
On March 08 2011 09:44 arb wrote: Am i the only one who feels for the hydras damage(which is good vs everything..) and hp(which is the same as bw..)
that its main problem is its a ..2 supply unit? why not lower it back down to 75/25 and make it 1 supply like in broodwar(some things may have to be tweaked obviously)
That's actually an interesting idea. I agree that if you made it 1 supply and lower the cost, it would make hydras even more viable again. However, than you have to keep some stuff in mind:
Late game When the roach supply was doubled, that meant that you would have only half the number of roaches as you could have at 200/200. If roaches stay unchanged, I can reasonably see hydras becoming favored over them. However, once collosi get in big numbers they will obviously have to switch over to roaches or another non-hydra composition. But very interesting thought.
It would definitely make the zerg feel very "swarmy" again though.
On March 08 2011 09:21 bkrow wrote: Hydras serve a purpose in the game; not every unit can be a core unit..
They have high enough DPS to tear through a zerg or gateway army
Actually Roaches do more DPS in ZvZ.
Roaches do better dps per cost provided they can all attack. But do you ever fight in a location where 50 roaches can all attack? No. Additionally, hydras do much better dps per supply, so a maxed army with hydras is stronger than one with only roaches.
Yeah its pretty funny. In BW, hydralisk were basically cannon fodder. They were tier 1.5 units that you can easily make expendable because they were cheap and easy to mass. Now in SC2, they are tier 2 units, stronger but more expensive and held to a distance to due to its creep mechanic. Sure, they work wonders when used correctly against the right units because they are basically buffer marines. But in some games, a pro player can basically "void" the hydras role as dps. Sentries can FF hydras away forcing only the ones in the front line to shoot, while the ones in the back are getting blasted to death by colossus, storm, or what have you. So I see alot of hydras created in vain. So basically, they are still cannon fodder, but just more expensive and higher tier. Sounds like a deal eh?
I think Idra had the idea to switch the roach and the hydra, so Hydra was tier 1 but faster and weaker, closer to BW, and the roaches were like beta roaches and more powerful, but took longer to get. It'd probably need a lot more testing but I think that could work; you'd have a good anti-air option early for banshee rushes and such other than going mass queen, and more powerful roaches would be really useful later on, idk.
-back in sc1 hydras were never used in zvz, rarely used in tvz, and than fairly prevalent in sc2 so i think bliz has done a great job recapturing that if that's what they were going for. -however i think the new sc2 hydra has a lot more uses than it did in bw. hydras require tier 2. overlords at tier 2 now have the ability to drop creep, hence a speed upgrade! -vs terran bio armies with medivacs demolish hydras. same with tanks with support. however they shine at taking out air units. unfortunately most zerg in order to prevent air, go air themselves. this renders the hydra unused -vs zerg roaches mid game and infestors late game are the dominant strategy. hydras have good added dps, and are good if the zerg suspects the other zerg is switching to an air tech since roaches cannot shoot up. other than that i don't see many applicable senses for them. -vs protoss hydras are extremely effective vs gateway units. however their low hp renders them near useless vs splash units (cols/temps). however i see small groups of hydras being very effective at taking out tech structures. drops/nydus would make them far more mobile and lethal. also they add awesome defense vs air harass or drops from other opponents. hydras do have a role in zvp, just not the mass 1 unit and end the game solution. i think we'll see plenty of growth in hydra usage as the game develops further.
It just needs to not be retarded offcreep. For some reasons, Hydras get a much larger speed buff on creep than the average Zerg unit, the only other unit getting a unique speed buff I believe is the Queen. Really, just make increase the damn speed!
How about the hydra could burrow beneath cliffs to traverse them completely? They do this trick in cinematics...and I just noticed that Zerg is the only race who can't hop cliffs.
Voted no for 2 reasons: 1. Hydras are the only ground based anti-air zergs have besides queens and spore crawlers and 2. Hydras have higher range and dps than roaches.
1 means that they will have a role in the midgame as the unit to get against air units before you can get corrupters, and 2 means that mixing in a few hydras with a roach composition will usually make it slightly stronger because the hydras can shoot over the roaches and do more damage. There's also 2 base all ins with hydras that are just starting to become more developed. I don't think they will see as much play as they did in BW but I don't think they will disappear either.
Hydras will be cyclical in ZvP, I think. If Zerg aren't making Hydras, Colossi aren't as good. If the Protoss isn't making Colossi, Hydras are suddenly much more viable. Zerg are increasingly not going into games thinking "I'm going to make Hydras!", but may still use them reactively. P are going to start responding to mass roach with immortals instead of colossus, and then a transition into Hydra/Roach is a bit more effective, because the mid/late-game Zerg can go from "No hydras" to "Many Hydras" very quickly, and then go back into pure roach.
Can't remember the last time I saw a hydra in a ZvT or ZvZ ... It does have its place in ZvP though.. I am not sure what changes need to be made but I feel like it will eventually have its place.. maybe that wont come into play until HoTs.
I disagree with a statement that more and more pros get infestors in zvz, I saw some huge hydra action in mrbitter's awsome coaching sessions. Also, for me, non pro player, roaches die pretty fast to stalkers if well upgraded and in big numbers (check Ace vs Moon Scrap station IEM game). And that happens pretty frequently, considering the fact that you have to overmake corruptors, which are eating your supply after the battle.
I don't use them in ZvT - in favor of mutas, infestors and whatnot. I'd rather make mass queen vs. air if that's the case .
I think they're awful units, and it's not hard to see why. They're fat, slow, unstimmable, unhealable, mineral expensive, gas costing, marines without an instant attack and +1 range. The only time they're good in combat is behind roach walls, which means they're good only in ZvZ, as in ZvP they just can't be used to put pressure back on your opponent before collosi, barring a tiny, narrow window against stargate openers and on very very close maps.
I don't think they're even good anti-air any more; pheonix are frighteningly good against hydra in large enough numbers.
I'm a Terran player and I normally just utter a big sigh when I hear Zerg QQ:ing. However, the Hydra is just a bad unit. It was like one of the very core units in BW and it just doesn't feel the same, at all. Shouldn't be named Hydra if they keep it as it is...
Well written by the OP, but even if he insists this is not a balance discussion it is inevitable to become one which will (one more time) lead nowhere. The thread title is also very dramatic and beckons balance debate.
Bad game design has led to the state of the hydra, where you can "1a" and devastate a P gateway unit army or lose to a "1a" colossus ball. I really don't think there isn't anything in between. There are several drops timing that Z can take advantage of and kill stargate openers against P like Moon showed us in IEM, but that's about it imho.
I really don't see how it is possible to buff the hydra without breaking early/mid game vs P whille gateway units remain so weak.
Again I think this is designer's lack of insight to leave such a high dps unit do full damage to all armor types and have it be extremely weak as a drawback; aka "glass cannon" concept.
On March 08 2011 10:02 kasumimi wrote: Bad game design has led to the state of the hydra, where you can "1a" and devastate a P gateway unit army
But you can't. You really can't. Collosi can 'devastate' hydras; the effectiveness of hydras against gateway armies pales in comparison. They're just 'good', and only as support.
I think the problem with the hydras is that fact that people tech switch completely into hydra. seems like people really need to have more diversity in their army. if there were lings and roaches supporting then the hydras do work!!!
Sight, i wonder when people are gonna realize that hydras are deadly if you use them with nydus worm or overlord drops. These options allows you to bypass their biggest weakness; immobility. A well timed hydra/ling drop or nydus attack can be extremly deadly if executed with right timing.
Idra said somewhere that he thinks the hydra needs to be redesigned, and the way he suggested to do it is nerfing it /making it cheaper and bring it back to T1, while buffing the roach which would become t2. that seemed an interesting idea to me, because it would also fix the problem with the roach (which is a bad unit lategame, but zerg has to mass it because there's no better option).
On March 08 2011 10:06 dark fury wrote: Sight, i wonder when people are gonna realize that hydras are deadly if you use them with nydus worm or overlord drops. These options allows you to bypass their biggest weakness; immobility. A well timed hydra/ling drop or nydus attack can be extremly deadly if executed with right timing.
Or you could just drop roaches and have a useful unit later.
I think hydras illustrate the massive design flaw in Zerg currently. Roaches and hydras behave the same and forfill the same role, but it just feels like you get a lot more for your money if you just make pure roach. If you need anti air you just build mutas or corruptors. They fit the fast roach army better anyway. Mobility is still key against Protoss, that's one reason mass roach works so well.
I still feel the problem is the lack of speed. Hydras just don't fit with a Zerg army. The most important thing about Zerg is still the speed of the army. If you don't have superior speed, how are you ever supposed to set up good flanks?
On a personal level I wish hydras and roaches would switch roles. Hydras should be the core unit of the Zerg army, a unit you can mass produce. A unit that can deal with most army compositions reasonably well and not be such a huge risk building. Right now hydras get massively hard countered by anything that gets plus against light and then spash like colossus and storm.
In ZvZ hydras are dangerous to build because of banelings. Only once you get enough roaches nothing can actually hit the hydras, you start mixing it in. But the speed is still a problem, and infestor roach is a more mobile and efficient army.
In ZvT hydras see almost no use because it gets ownd by the most normal composition terran have. Siege tank marine. And against mech they get completely roasted against blue flame hellions.
In ZvP they do very well against stargate play obviously, and can be used for some many timing attacks. But all of these timing attacks rely solely on hitting just before colossus, because there is no unit better against hydras than a colossus, and that's a problem when the main focus of a P army is colossus. I'm starting to favour mass roach corruptor even more in my play against P aswell. Hydras cost a massive amounts of gas you can't afford to when playing against P, you need that gas for upgrades and for corruptors. Hydras are simply not worth the amount of gas it costs.
It breaks my heart, as a Zerg player, that the hydra,the most iconic unit of the swarm, is so god damn useless.
On March 08 2011 10:07 dementrio wrote: Idra said somewhere that he thinks the hydra needs to be redesigned, and the way he suggested to do it is nerfing it /making it cheaper and bring it back to T1, while buffing the roach which would become t2. that seemed an interesting idea to me, because it would also fix the problem with the roach (which is a bad unit lategame, but zerg has to mass it because there's no better option).
I've been thinking this would be an interesting idea for a really long time now. I had no idea that Idra had the same idea, haha.
I think it would solve a lot of problems if the two tech levels of hydra and roach were switched around, obviously changing their statistics accordingly. You would see a lot more hydra based armies with roach support rather than the other way around, and it would fix a lot of general awkwardness of the race.
I think if people try to use nydus worms in conjunction with hydralisks then they will still be used, since they are good units on creep but not so much off creep.
The concept has been raised of the Hydra as a siege unit, buffed in Health, DPS, Range (to something like 8-ish), with an increased mineral/gas cost and a food cost of 3. Don't remember where it was suggested, but it would fill a major hole in the Zerg mid-game such that you don't need to use roaches against mech.
That said, it would probably be OP Anti-Air if that change occurred and were applied to its air attack and as such, its AA attack would likely need to remain unchanged.
It would certainly bolster the Zerg's story arc that 'THEY HAVE EVOLVED, BETTER, FASTER, STRONGER. WE CAN REBUILD HIM. WE HAVE THE TECHNOLOGY.' So too can we, for a price for well under $6 Million, at that, rebuild the hydra into a unit that is useful.
I think hydras will get some major tweaking in HOTS. They just seem like a really good unit thats just too easy to counter, and the roach with 4 range overlaps it in some roles.
The problem is that right now hydras are just a slower / weaker / higher dps version of the roach. What I'd really like to see is a significant increase in speed, a reduction in damage and an increase in damage against psionic. This would allow Hydras to fulfill the same role against casters that Corruptors do against Colossi and help make Zerg a truly reactionary race.
These survey results are a good example of the voice of a few not matching the opinion of many. Specifically some of the thread has been saying the Hydra is fine, they're great with nydus(seriously?) while the votes show what the silent majority know:
The Hydra sucks
The Hydra can shoot up, but it is not good AA. If I do 1-1-1 in TvZ, rush for cloaked banshee(or 1 viking to kill ovie) and I saw the Z go hydra in response..I giggle like a school girl, put down bunkers, secure my nat, then go any tech route I want. If I go open with 1 starport Void and see hydras in response, I play defensive on 2 base, tech to Colo and get the dreaded void/colossus ball. Hydras don't scare a toss against Void, mutas do. Likewise with banshee/viking harass.
Speed upgrade to bring them to upgraded roach speed or faster would be a tremendous help, but colossi will still need some kind of nerf. The protoss deathwad is just way too strong.
Here's an easy way to fix zerg/make them better. Revert Hydras back to the way they were in BW (tier 1), bump Roaches up to tier 2 thus giving them a buff and, finally, bring lurkers back.
Actually we saw some hydra play in recent GSL matches. Hydras can play a role in ZvP for breaking forge expansions like in BW. Roaches are good, yes but hydras are harder to stop if not scouted quick enough. I
I dont like hydras the way they are now but I would have no idea how they could be changed to make them a) more useful and b) not OP. I think we should therefor just wait and see what 1.3 will bring us in terms of new strategies.
I think HoTS will address the hydra. Maybe a speed upgrade or Lurkers, but something that involves the hydra will be much appreciated.
It isn't so broken that it needs huge overhaul in a patch. Probably won't until the expansion anyway, if at all. It is just kind of a bland unit overall, no real abilities that make it special, and blizzard likes to make their units fun to play with, so I can see the hydra getting some attention.
If I could submit my own unsolicited upgrade for the hydra in HoTS, I would suggest the upgrade cliff climbing claws (name pending ^^ ) so that Zerg has a unit that can jump up and down cliffs.
I've recently done a ton of testing with hydras in ZvP.
Roaches are almost certainly better vs gateway units after their specific upgrades, any kind of surface area problems because roaches are 4 range/hydras 6 range is resolved by using burrow movement underneath forcefields.
In almost any kind of battle vs collosus, roach/corruptor is better than mixing in roach/hydra/corruptor. Even after you get tier 3 for broodlords, roach/broodlord is much stronger than hydra/broodlord vs gateway/collosus up to the point that even 1:1 roaches are better usually in that combo.
The only reason to make hydras is versus voidrays as anti air and versus immortals. Thing is hydras are pretty unusable off of creep and on creep queens are much better as anti air anyways versus void rays. Burrow movement roach armies beat immortal + gateway units similar cost armies anyways and have more more options of split attacks/base trading only reason to add in hydras would be approaching 200 food cap playing defensive vs 2 base all in protoss with immortals.
Of course there are some all in 2 base hydra busts or some all in hydra doom drops vs protoss but the unit is definitely just "dying" in sc2.
ZvT nobody ever uses hydras. ZvZ nobody should ever use hydras pretty much, roach/infestor is way way stronger than roach/hydra, don't even think roach/hydra beats mass roach as long as you can force fights before 200 food.
In terms of one supply units you have drones and a pair of lings....oh and banelings I guess.
EVERY other unit is 2+ I believe. C'mon..that's not zerg. Back in brood war you had hydras and lings as one supply. I played BW the other day against toss, I 3 hatch muta into hydra/lurker and i was like O_O as to how big my army was.
Hydras are also too "all in" of a unit unless its ZvZ. With any other zerg unit (except the baneling which kills itself), zerg is usually able to call its shots on when to fight, and when to run. You rarely truly commit to an attack since its so easy to retreat. However, any time you attack with a hydra off creep, you are committing yourself to attacking because there will be no hydra retreat. It's a pretty unzerg thing. Brood lords and ultras are a bit similar, but ultras are supposed to be a sort of linebreaker that you commit an attack to, and brood lords are similar.
I agree very strongly with the points you laid out in the OP. Personally I don't get hydras often, and when I do I make them sparringly. Corruptes so much better at AA, Roachs so much more toughness and speed.
On March 08 2011 10:07 dementrio wrote: Idra said somewhere that he thinks the hydra needs to be redesigned, and the way he suggested to do it is nerfing it /making it cheaper and bring it back to T1, while buffing the roach which would become t2. that seemed an interesting idea to me, because it would also fix the problem with the roach (which is a bad unit lategame, but zerg has to mass it because there's no better option).
This is funny too because right now zerg players always get tricked into teching to hydras. Oh right I'm at lair now, lemme get this hydra den and get upgrade and tech up to hydras. Problem is 90 percent of the time, they antitech down to hydras.
Can someone tell me the reason why Hydras are OP if they have same speed on/off of creep? I have always wondered why Hydras are only fast on creep. Edit: the reasoning behind it, I mean.
I have an idea, how about if instead of a speed upgrade Blizzard gave an upgrade that made hydras leave creep where ever they crawled. It would be programmed so they would move at off-creep speed if they are producing creep, i.e. on uncreeped ground, but afterwards they have a chance to retreat because they left a creep trail for themselves. It wouldn't change balance really because a roach, hydra push would still arrive at the same time if creep was spread beforehand, but now the hydras have some chance to escape on their creep trail.
This would make it possible to micro hydras back and forth, along with interesting positional tactics, such as forcing fielding hydras to prevent them from escaping or *gasp* flanking a small group of units to sandwich the zerg force. It would also create synergy with the other range zerg unit, the Queen. Imagine creating a creep highway with a line of hydras and following them into battle, laying tumors along the way.
On March 08 2011 10:06 dark fury wrote: Sight, i wonder when people are gonna realize that hydras are deadly if you use them with nydus worm or overlord drops. These options allows you to bypass their biggest weakness; immobility. A well timed hydra/ling drop or nydus attack can be extremly deadly if executed with right timing.
Or we could do it like Reavers and make it standard to fly hydralisks around everywhere in overlords.
I've recently done a ton of testing with hydras in ZvP.
Roaches are almost certainly better vs gateway units after their specific upgrades, any kind of surface area problems because roaches are 4 range/hydras 6 range is resolved by using burrow movement underneath forcefields.
In almost any kind of battle vs collosus, roach/corruptor is better than mixing in roach/hydra/corruptor. Even after you get tier 3 for broodlords, roach/broodlord is much stronger than hydra/broodlord vs gateway/collosus up to the point that even 1:1 roaches are better usually in that combo.
The only reason to make hydras is versus voidrays as anti air and versus immortals. Thing is hydras are pretty unusable off of creep and on creep queens are much better as anti air anyways versus void rays. Burrow movement roach armies beat immortal + gateway units similar cost armies anyways and have more more options of split attacks/base trading only reason to add in hydras would be approaching 200 food cap playing defensive vs 2 base all in protoss with immortals.
Of course there are some all in 2 base hydra busts or some all in hydra doom drops vs protoss but the unit is definitely just "dying" in sc2.
ZvT nobody ever uses hydras. ZvZ nobody should ever use hydras pretty much, roach/infestor is way way stronger than roach/hydra, don't even think roach/hydra beats mass roach as long as you can force fights before 200 food.
Yeah, people have been doing all sorts of these tests ever since the beta and the general result is that roaches are better. However, are your tests taking choke points into account? It seems that a lot of people mix in hydras when it's possible that roaches aren't going to be able to deal damage due to their short range and being in choke points.
I flat out believe that the hydra is simply too weak. And the reason for it is simple. It isn't about their DPS, about their HP, about their cost or about it's attack range, no:
Out of all the units in the game, the hydra is the only unit that doesn't have some kind of special utility besides it's main roll as a DPS unit. It can literally just walk around and do damage, but dies quickly against most compositions and is even out DPSed by other Zerg units (such as the banelings) against compositions which would not kill the Hydras instantly.
Even the zergling, which, from a superficial point of view, can't do anything but run around and attack either, has it's special utility in a sense by being so ridiculously fast. The thor, which also can just walk around and shoot (ignoring it's special ability which nobody uses), is an insane damage-tank at the same time. The void ray can fly around, and so forth with every unit in the game.
This is where the hydra is really lacking. It needs one of those abilities. Either that, or it needs to be redesigned as a different kind of damage dealer, the kind that it was in Brood War. Faster, cheaper, short build time, T1 and in return not so much DPS anymore. Without additional abilites, it would need to be a mobile base defense and harass unit, a roll that the ling has right now, but can't fullfill because it's a melee unit and every base has very good defense against melee units.
On March 08 2011 10:42 deth2munkies wrote: Please watch Moon's IEM games in the group stages before you say Hydras are weak.
They are, in fact, excellent when used correctly and properly supported.
Did you even read the op? It's not about the Hydra being weak, but about the Hydra not having a role to fulfill.
I've thought about what was mentioned earlier about Hydra T1 Roach T2 myself. It might be a solution, but I'm pretty sure this will never happen. Personally, I like to play Hydras, but I always hated the fact that Zerg has the Roach and Hydra, that are pretty similar units, just that the Roach is more useful in most cases.
It seems to me that they're similar to reapers in the high damage-low hp way. Notice: once reaper speed was hard to get, the unit vanished. Maybe, if they had a speed upgrade at hive level....
On March 08 2011 10:35 StrifeCro wrote: ZvZ nobody should ever use hydras... ...don't even think roach/hydra beats mass roach as long as you can force fights before 200 food.
All due respect, but your word choice makes it sound like you're theory crafting instead of speaking from experience.
Roach/hydra demolishes pure roach with similar resources invested in each army, well before the 200 food cap.
On March 08 2011 09:06 cuppatea wrote: Too weak, too slow. It's a garbage unit.
I was having huge problems against Protoss for the longest time until I just stopped making Hydra.
I think a big part of the problem is we expect the Hydra to live up to its supremacy in BW.
Hydra's in BW were a really powerful unit: cost effective, could be produced in bulk, and had good DPS versus both air and ground, and were relatively mobile.
Hydra's are extremely fragile in SC2, and extremely immobile compared to other units without creep. As Blizzard stated, part of the reason Hydra's have received such a change is they'd be too powerful if they were mobile, high DPS, AND hard to kill (much like they were in BW).
If we look at a similar example: the dragoon. The dragoon was vital to a Protoss army in BW. It's SC2 replacement, the Stalker, probably doesn't live up to the dragoon (ignoring things like Blink). People complain and complain about the Stalker being a "trash" unit at times, but protoss players have come to adjust to them.
I think a similar approach needs to be taken with Hydras. As mentioned, roaches are often favored over the Hydra. With the roach, a cost-effective, powerful unit, I don't see why people should worry about the Hydra becoming "useless" It should be regarded as more of a supplement unit, something to add high DPS to your army mix.
Afterall, the reaper was almost unused for a long while, but finally people are inventing unique strategies that implement them EXTREMELY well. I personally think it's a matter of time before we discover the true potential for hydras.
The difference here is that dragoons got their damage raped in the form of stalkers, but now they run fast AND can blink.
Hydras got an upgrade REMOVED from them that makes them immobile.
Hydras are meant to fill the zerg GtA role, which they fail at since they can only perform it on creep, otherwise they just die.
Losira showed a great roach-zergling-corruptor style in his match vs Huk that I think may become more of the match standard, I think this has been trending for awhile too. If your army is focused on zerglings buffering for roaches instead of roaches buffering for hydras you accomplish a few important things.
A. You're much more mobile as the zerglings can run around the map and harass expansions to death. You can burrow lings at possible protoss expansions to delays them etc. This is going to slow down the protoss macro, force them to waste a lot of forcefields, and force them to spend res dropping cannons at their expansion. Losira vs Huk demonstrated this so so well.
B. You're freeing up a lot of gas so when you see the colossus count start to go up you'll be able to quickly produce more corruptors and you'll probably be more ahead on your upgrades as well.
C. Zerglings are incredibly supply efficient (they aren't larvae efficient which is why you need fast macro hatches). This means that you're maxed army is going to appear much larger because 4 zerglings = 1 hydra in supply.
If you see your opponent go two starport you may have to do a reactionary hydra den, likewise if you see a terran do the double starport mass banshee all in you may have to make hydras, though you can probably drop a spire and fairly quickly transition out of the hydras. As of right now as well in zvz they are useful in the max army composition. Roach + about 20 hydras and a couple of infestors is going to beat pure roach with infestor, we've seen it in several competitive games (unless the map is gigantic like cross position terminus). This may change with the change to infestors but right now even with infestors I think hydras are definitely a worthwhile unit to have in your army composition.
On March 08 2011 09:56 Ribbon wrote: Hydras will be cyclical in ZvP, I think. If Zerg aren't making Hydras, Colossi aren't as good. If the Protoss isn't making Colossi, Hydras are suddenly much more viable. Zerg are increasingly not going into games thinking "I'm going to make Hydras!", but may still use them reactively. P are going to start responding to mass roach with immortals instead of colossus, and then a transition into Hydra/Roach is a bit more effective, because the mid/late-game Zerg can go from "No hydras" to "Many Hydras" very quickly, and then go back into pure roach.
not really true because a P that doesnt make colossi is gonna make HT's, which also destroy hydra's because they move as if they are in a wheelchair.
Let's either fix the Mobility OR the Health. Speed Upgrade at T3 could be nice. But I think the health problem could also be fixed. What about a combat-shield like upgrade to give a +30 HP bonus ? Basically it should have a "anti-tank/anti-colossus" upgrade which would reduce by 10 the damage received by these units, even tough it sounds pretty silly.
On March 08 2011 10:35 StrifeCro wrote: ZvZ nobody should ever use hydras... ...don't even think roach/hydra beats mass roach as long as you can force fights before 200 food.
All due respect, but your word choice makes it sound like you're theory crafting instead of speaking from experience.
Roach/hydra demolishes pure roach with similar resources invested in each army, well before the 200 food cap.
A combination of queens roaches and infestors (and even static defense) completely dominate hydralisk in all of it's functionality. Hydralisk is just a bad unit that only has uses for newbie players, and even then it's not good enough to really win but to just barely deal with threats.
Queens have superior health, unit type, armor, air range, and a huge healing ability Roaches have superior cost efficiency, health, armor, speed, self healing, and burrow-move Infestors have infested terrans 2 of which have more health and DPS than a hydralisk.. They also have fungal which IMO is going a bad diection, but it is a direction of damage which replaces hydralisk.
That said, I think infestor and roach still need some changes/buffing none the less, namely roach's health/supply balance, and infestor's neural parasite needs buffing.
On March 08 2011 10:35 StrifeCro wrote: ZvZ nobody should ever use hydras... ...don't even think roach/hydra beats mass roach as long as you can force fights before 200 food.
All due respect, but your word choice makes it sound like you're theory crafting instead of speaking from experience.
Roach/hydra demolishes pure roach with similar resources invested in each army, well before the 200 food cap.
Well just try some fights like 20 roaches 10 hydras vs 35 roaches, which is equal cost. As long as you have 1.5 extra roaches per hydra then they will win, until you get 200 food then its impossible to have 1.5 extra roaches per hydra. This is with 0/0 vs 0/0 too, roaches scale better with upgrades than hydras do as well.
@ LoLAdriankat Choke points\force field is a pure surface area problem which could potentially make hydras better after your roaches cannot attack anymore due to surface area but hydras could because they are 6 range instead of 4. Thing is, I feel roaches are even less affected by surface area than hydras or roach/hydra because of burrow movement. I actually feel its easier to have close to 100 percent of your forces attacking when you have 100 percent roach than roach/hydra
funny that you say its not used in PvZ. I feel like the only way to beat an even skilled protoss on high master level right now is dropping hydras all over the place and never let him get a deathball. (Moon vs Ace on Shakuras IEM 2011) Or get a massive economy to baneling bomb him, i rather feel that roachplay is dead soon in that matchup, especially because we get the Gsl Maps in the ladder "soon"...
ZvZ hydras and infestors are at the moment used 50/50 but after the next patch it will probably change.
The hydra's speed is not an issue if you have been spreading your creep properly through the entire game. Bring the creep as close to your opponent as you can and station a few hyrdas throughout the lane so that if you need to retreat, you have a couple units to help hold off any counterattacks.
I use them as base defense against anti-air or if I'm suspecting a drop near my mineral line.
Hydras could probably use something in the way of a movement or survivability buff. As it stands, hydras devastate all but two protoss units.
At the moment, zergs aren't able to do their preferred roach/hydra/corrupter mix against toss because toss has a manageable counter to this composition. I really wish zergs would stop suiciding into void/collo with this mix time after time and then making balance whine threads about it. There's more going on in PvZ then, for example, ZvT in which both races only uses four units.
On March 08 2011 08:57 Subversion wrote:The problem isn't necessarily that the Hydra is a BAD unit, it seems to be more that it does not have a definite role to fill anymore.
Do you really believe that the hydra isn't a bad unit? If we define bad units as those that are cost-inefficient, doesn't that make hydras one of the worst in the game? I mean, reapers are obviously worse, but Terran has more units than Zerg and reapers fill a very niche role (albeit somewhat ineffectively now).
I stand by the statement that hydras are one of the worst core units in the game.
On March 08 2011 10:35 StrifeCro wrote: ZvZ nobody should ever use hydras... ...don't even think roach/hydra beats mass roach as long as you can force fights before 200 food.
All due respect, but your word choice makes it sound like you're theory crafting instead of speaking from experience.
Roach/hydra demolishes pure roach with similar resources invested in each army, well before the 200 food cap.
Well just try some fights like 20 roaches 10 hydras vs 35 roaches, which is equal cost. As long as you have 1.5 extra roaches per hydra then they will win, until you get 200 food then its impossible to have 1.5 extra roaches per hydra. This is with 0/0 vs 0/0 too, roaches scale better with upgrades than hydras do as well.
@ LoLAdriankat Choke points\force field is a pure surface area problem which could potentially make hydras better after your roaches cannot attack anymore due to surface area but hydras could because they are 6 range instead of 4. Thing is, I feel roaches are even less affected by surface area than hydras or roach/hydra because of burrow movement. I actually feel its easier to have close to 100 percent of your forces attacking when you have 100 percent roach than roach/hydra
Ah yeah now I see it. I should've thought about that second paragraph of your post a little more (doh). Sounds so much better than roach/hydra. Hydras are also pretty expensive during the early-mid game, so I can see how it can be better to just invest that money one could spend teching to hydras on getting both roach upgrades instead. Thanks for the info.
Personally I only use hydras in ZvP, and I've been working on ways to use them as little as possible, because I just think they're not worth 100/50. [The next plan I'm going to try out is extra queen + spores (if needed) and a quick spire after lair finishes. I can hold off phoenix harass with corruptors (they only make the phoenix fly away, but that's all the hydras did too), which can be useful for dealing with colossus later.]
As is, I only get them if I'm playing against a protoss who stays on one base too long. Hydras deal with the likely VR + gateway all-in, and allow an unstoppable counter afterward since the protoss doesn't have any tech.
That said, I know some people are big fans of doing quick hydra drops against FE protoss, though I've never done it myself. Maybe, just maybe hydras could be used aggressively in a timing-push fashion against certain builds. But I really don't like where the unit is now.
They're good against 2 gate star openers and 2 base 6 gate pushes, but that's about it. Forcefields, colossi, even chargelots shut hydras down pretty hard.
On March 08 2011 11:09 MacroKing wrote: Hydras are fine atm. They have their weakness' and Strengths, Early game vs protoss gateway units they destroy!
Here's the problem: Hydras are not quick at all to come out. By the time a Zerg has enough to break a Protoss (and this is ignoring forcefields entirely), it's very likely that Protoss is almost at the point of getting colossi.
And if the Zerg wants to keep Protoss on one-base rather than allow the 2-base colossi to happen, they need to make lings (and upgrade ling speed). Going hydras early game versus Toss can work, but it most likely won't if the Protoss is any good.
Edit: And I should add that if Protoss does put early pressure and sees the hydras, they can easily run away. Hydras have no ability to chase anything. On top of that, because of their slow off-creep speed, they're quite possibly the worst unit to attack early with. If the attack fails, there is no way to retreat. And of course, once P sees large numbers of hydras, out come the colossi to trash them.
6 months ago if you asked teamliquid if they thought there would be an NASL within the next 6 months they would have almost entirely voted "no"
Why do you think that just because you have a teamliquid account you can see the future better than blizzard or progamers? Yeah, there are problems with Hydras. Do you somehow believe blizzard will just not make changes even if they are literally never used in a single game?
Appreciate the response StrifeCro, I'll go try a few fights in a unit tester.
I only said anything because I've lost leads by going pure roach and getting chewed up by smaller roach/hydra armies. And since then I've consistently beaten pure roach with roach/hydra.
But the last thing I want to do is dig in my heels; you face stronger opponents and have more experience, for sure.
On March 08 2011 11:17 Eknoid4 wrote: 6 months ago if you asked teamliquid if they thought there would be an NASL within the next 6 months they would have almost entirely voted "no"
Why do you think that just because you have a teamliquid account you can see the future better than blizzard or progamers? Yeah, there are problems with Hydras. Do you somehow believe blizzard will just not make changes even if they are literally never used in a single game?
Honest question: Could you point me towards progamers saying that hydras aren't bad units? I know IdrA, Ret, iNcontrol, and Tyler have all made statements to that effect but I want to see who is saying otherwise.
On March 08 2011 11:17 Eknoid4 wrote: 6 months ago if you asked teamliquid if they thought there would be an NASL within the next 6 months they would have almost entirely voted "no"
Why do you think that just because you have a teamliquid account you can see the future better than blizzard or progamers? Yeah, there are problems with Hydras. Do you somehow believe blizzard will just not make changes even if they are literally never used in a single game?
On March 08 2011 11:17 Eknoid4 wrote: 6 months ago if you asked teamliquid if they thought there would be an NASL within the next 6 months they would have almost entirely voted "no"
Why do you think that just because you have a teamliquid account you can see the future better than blizzard or progamers? Yeah, there are problems with Hydras. Do you somehow believe blizzard will just not make changes even if they are literally never used in a single game?
Ask the reaper.
Reapers are used like every 2nd or 3rd Terran matchup in the GSL atm especially in TvP.
On March 08 2011 10:29 Freedom48 wrote: Hydras don't scare a toss against Void, mutas do.
Mutas are bad against void rays, just like hydralisks and corruptors. It's one of the problems zerg has - they have no unit that can counter VR at equal supply other than the queen, which is not an air unit and which is slow off creep which causes many problems.
On March 08 2011 10:35 StrifeCro wrote: The only reason to make hydras is versus voidrays as anti air and versus immortals.
Immortals yes, void ray, only somewhat Hydras work quite well vs void ray per resource cost (obviously as long as there's no storm or colossus) but not in maxed-army circumstances.
On March 08 2011 11:09 MacroKing wrote: Hydras are fine atm. They have their weakness' and Strengths, Early game vs protoss gateway units they destroy!
Oh you mean like how hydralisks loose to zealots (let alone chargelots), or like how an upgraded hydralisk will barely beats a stalker, and how a blinked stalkers beat hydralisks? there's only a 25 mineral premium over the cost of a hydra, and when both have their upgrades, stalkers win.
On March 08 2011 11:19 kedinik wrote: Appreciate the response StrifeCro, I'll go try a few fights in a unit tester.
I only said anything because I've lost leads by going pure roach and getting chewed up by smaller roach/hydra armies. And since then I've consistently beaten pure roach with roach/hydra.
But the last thing I want to do is dig in my heels; you face stronger opponents and have more experience, for sure.
Usually in those cases it's because the hydras are doing uncontested damage. You could fix that with speedling flanks or burrow movement.
I don't understand why Blizzard didn't include a speed upgrade just like in SC1; perhaps this was due to hydras being used a lot in the beta anyway.
Possibly they'll just leave hydras as they are for now and rebalance it (along with other things) when HotS comes out. For now, besides the occasional use in ZvZ or anti-air defense, the Hydra is sort of the epic rare unit you see when the Zerg decides to do a bust or something. Especially in ZvP where you hit before they have Colossi cus really, before Colossi they don't have much that can deal with Hydras xD.
On March 08 2011 11:17 Eknoid4 wrote: 6 months ago if you asked teamliquid if they thought there would be an NASL within the next 6 months they would have almost entirely voted "no"
Why do you think that just because you have a teamliquid account you can see the future better than blizzard or progamers? Yeah, there are problems with Hydras. Do you somehow believe blizzard will just not make changes even if they are literally never used in a single game?
Ask the reaper.
Reapers are used like every 2nd or 3rd Terran matchup in the GSL atm especially in TvP.
Ask the facts.
They are used for their utility. There is a reason no one builds more than one.
The risk of buffing Hydras is that it will make Hydra/Roach godlike again, which basically reduces Zerg play down to one unit composition.
I hate it that the Hydra is so useless, but I can't see a way to buff it without creating imbalance. The Roach fills too similar of a role. And Hydras DO wreck Gateway units if you don't have Colossi.
There is also the issue of Zerg production - they can remax on a unit instantly once you hit the lategame. The ability to switch from one strong unit to another unit (that absolutely wrecks the opponent's army composition) is dangerous for balance... Hence Zerg having only one truly viable ground unit.
On March 08 2011 11:17 Eknoid4 wrote: 6 months ago if you asked teamliquid if they thought there would be an NASL within the next 6 months they would have almost entirely voted "no"
Why do you think that just because you have a teamliquid account you can see the future better than blizzard or progamers? Yeah, there are problems with Hydras. Do you somehow believe blizzard will just not make changes even if they are literally never used in a single game?
Ask the reaper.
Reapers are used like every 2nd or 3rd Terran matchup in the GSL atm especially in TvP.
Ask the facts.
They are used for their utility. There is a reason no one builds more than one.
On March 08 2011 09:06 cuppatea wrote: Too weak, too slow. It's a garbage unit.
I was having huge problems against Protoss for the longest time until I just stopped making Hydra.
I think a big part of the problem is we expect the Hydra to live up to its supremacy in BW.
Hydra's in BW were a really powerful unit: cost effective, could be produced in bulk, and had good DPS versus both air and ground, and were relatively mobile.
Hydra's are extremely fragile in SC2, and extremely immobile compared to other units without creep. As Blizzard stated, part of the reason Hydra's have received such a change is they'd be too powerful if they were mobile, high DPS, AND hard to kill (much like they were in BW).
If we look at a similar example: the dragoon. The dragoon was vital to a Protoss army in BW. It's SC2 replacement, the Stalker, probably doesn't live up to the dragoon (ignoring things like Blink). People complain and complain about the Stalker being a "trash" unit at times, but protoss players have come to adjust to them.
I think a similar approach needs to be taken with Hydras. As mentioned, roaches are often favored over the Hydra. With the roach, a cost-effective, powerful unit, I don't see why people should worry about the Hydra becoming "useless" It should be regarded as more of a supplement unit, something to add high DPS to your army mix.
Afterall, the reaper was almost unused for a long while, but finally people are inventing unique strategies that implement them EXTREMELY well. I personally think it's a matter of time before we discover the true potential for hydras.
Pretty good point. But there's a problem with this. Hydras have a very limited window of being effective. One that window is gone, is becomes very difficult for hydras to be cost effective (a la colossus). While stalkers are not great units, they still play pretty good role (obviously not spectacular) throughout the whole game. Decent movement speed for early harassment, good units for 4gate, later on with lots of stalkers/blink, all these make Stalkers a pretty viable unit throughout most of the game.
Hydras on the other hand, while effective against gateway units, they start losing its effectiveness since 1. It's hard to fight off creep and thus really exposing the hydras if you try to push with them. 2. Zerg will get hydras much later than Stalkers since it's harder to transition to them safely. 3. Once colossus are out, Hydra become pretty close to ineffective in a head on battle. This gives hydras a really tough time trying to be aggressive early on or be cost effective later on especially on bigger maps. This small window is so hard to hit correctly that it's just not that safe of an option especially if you don't plan on ending the game right then.
On March 08 2011 11:17 Eknoid4 wrote: 6 months ago if you asked teamliquid if they thought there would be an NASL within the next 6 months they would have almost entirely voted "no"
Why do you think that just because you have a teamliquid account you can see the future better than blizzard or progamers? Yeah, there are problems with Hydras. Do you somehow believe blizzard will just not make changes even if they are literally never used in a single game?
Ask the reaper.
Reapers are used like every 2nd or 3rd Terran matchup in the GSL atm especially in TvP.
Ask the facts.
They are used for their utility. There is a reason no one builds more than one.
go ahead and tell that to the observer.
Reaper=quick, hit & run attacker. Used for scouting. Observer=scout. Used for scouting.
Are you really trying to tell me that the reaper's role as harasser being changed to scout isn't a problem with the unit?
On March 08 2011 11:09 MacroKing wrote: Hydras are fine atm. They have their weakness' and Strengths, Early game vs protoss gateway units they destroy!
yes, sure, because we can get hydras in the early stage of the game and creep spread all over the map at the same time...
Hydras are too expensive and too slow to be used effectively in most cases; however i highly doubt that they will disappear in competitive play altogether.
On March 08 2011 11:17 Eknoid4 wrote: 6 months ago if you asked teamliquid if they thought there would be an NASL within the next 6 months they would have almost entirely voted "no"
Why do you think that just because you have a teamliquid account you can see the future better than blizzard or progamers? Yeah, there are problems with Hydras. Do you somehow believe blizzard will just not make changes even if they are literally never used in a single game?
Ask the reaper.
Reapers are used like every 2nd or 3rd Terran matchup in the GSL atm especially in TvP.
Ask the facts.
They are used for their utility. There is a reason no one builds more than one.
Honestly reapers have been shown to be useful past the earlygame with qxc, even with stalkers on the field. They are meant to be a raid unit like a mutalisk (and they get bonus to buildings!). They were never meant to be an early game contain-the-zerg-bullshit unit like they were before.
Terran have so many options and amazingly cost effective units that Terrans usually just never see them as a possible solution to problems. Seriously, Zergs have been scrambling since release to counter the new strats around that continue to abuse them. Zergs right now commonly utilize all parts of their tech tree and all their units.
The Hydra is simply losing favor to the actually-good-GtA Queen and the actually-good-AtA corruptor. Hydras are really better against ground targets...
Hydra need a HP increase. there cost is too expensive for there current value. honestly mixing like 6 into a roach army is pretty cool...but don't even try to retreat/micro with them if they are off creep.
On March 08 2011 11:17 Eknoid4 wrote: 6 months ago if you asked teamliquid if they thought there would be an NASL within the next 6 months they would have almost entirely voted "no"
Why do you think that just because you have a teamliquid account you can see the future better than blizzard or progamers? Yeah, there are problems with Hydras. Do you somehow believe blizzard will just not make changes even if they are literally never used in a single game?
Ask the reaper.
Reapers are used like every 2nd or 3rd Terran matchup in the GSL atm especially in TvP.
Ask the facts.
They are used for their utility. There is a reason no one builds more than one.
go ahead and tell that to the observer.
Reaper=quick, hit & run attacker. Used for scouting. Observer=scout. Used for scouting.
Are you really trying to tell me that the reaper's role as harasser being changed to scout isn't a problem with the unit?
Reaper: Only used for utility, usually only make one. Observer: only used for utility, usually only makes one.
I'm not saying it's not a problem at all. You are just being ridiculously absolute about how bad the reaper is, not allowing for reason or perspective, and overall just being a cliche whiner.
On March 08 2011 10:06 primarch359 wrote: I like idras idea of making them hatch tech and roaches lair tech
This is the 2nd time this has been said in this thread so I have to say this:
That was not Idra's idea, it was blizzard's. And, from what they told us, they agonized over the decision until they finally went with what we have now. It's very unlikely that it's ever getting changed.
Muscular Augments (too imba? weaken the hydra's attack) mobility is more important than power. Zerg's way of doing things. hit them fast and kinda hard but not too hard! lol
Zerg's not suppose to be slow!!! I'll let the queen slide...
what hydras need is a real range buff, making them a pseudo siege unit for the mid game. Make hydras 150/100 (half the price of a single colossus) but make their range match the collosus and the hydra will be fixed.
as all the other guys said, Hydras will still be scary as hell and necessary in ZvP, i dont know how many games i lost due to Hydra Roach Corrupter because i didnt get my voidrays Lol.
Dont worry, Hydras will still be here. Forever.In our hearts and on the playing field. But if we dont see them in SC2, there will still be plenty in broodwar =D=D=D
IMO the Hydra is a terrible unit.. It's a unit that's only good when it's not being shot at, at as the skill level of Starcraft increases, people are going to get better and better and shooting at hydras.
That said it does have its role, where it can be kept on creep and used defensively from angles where it can't be shot at too much. I think it'll retain this role, but in limited numbers. you never want to mass hydras
I'm under the impression that if Hydras get a speed upgrade, they will be massed and overlap purposes with the Roach. A Hydra deathball would kill everything so quickly.
Instead, they should get a HP upgrade that increases their health to something like 120 for 150/150. That would help fit their purpose much better. Maybe the price should be 200/200, 120 health for that unit is a lot now that I think about it.
Then again, if they remain slow, they remain pretty much useless. I'm not expecting any big change to them until HotS.
On March 08 2011 11:17 Eknoid4 wrote: 6 months ago if you asked teamliquid if they thought there would be an NASL within the next 6 months they would have almost entirely voted "no"
Why do you think that just because you have a teamliquid account you can see the future better than blizzard or progamers? Yeah, there are problems with Hydras. Do you somehow believe blizzard will just not make changes even if they are literally never used in a single game?
Ask the reaper.
Reapers are used like every 2nd or 3rd Terran matchup in the GSL atm especially in TvP.
Ask the facts.
They are used for their utility. There is a reason no one builds more than one.
go ahead and tell that to the observer.
Reaper=quick, hit & run attacker. Used for scouting. Observer=scout. Used for scouting.
Are you really trying to tell me that the reaper's role as harasser being changed to scout isn't a problem with the unit?
Reaper: Only used for utility, usually only make one. Observer: only used for utility, usually only makes one.
I'm not saying it's not a problem at all. You are just being ridiculously absolute about how bad the reaper is, not allowing for reason or perspective, and overall just being a cliche whiner.
So if it ended up that only one hydra was made every game, you would say the unit has no problems? Just because you said zero doesn't mean that units that are made once don't have a problem.
Also any good player would get more than one observer.
The hydras need raaaaaaange , zerg NEEDS a siege unit before the broodlord, why not the hydra? it is already slow off creep and does not fulfill any role. Make the hydra a siege unit for the mid game as a cannon and bunker buster, It would fix the game completely IMO.
I've seen some people say that a glass cannon DPS unit does not fit zerg, when in fact I think it fits it to a "T". If anything, perhaps they need something to enhance their longevity. In particular: I'm talking about an ability.
I'd class Stalkers as the closest "equivalent" unit to the Hydra, with similar-ish costs. The stalkers, despite -1 range and a weakness to Hydras, at least have the Blink ability which makes them more devastating when used correctly. Even the terran anti-ground+air (the marine) has an ability called stimpack. The Hydra's DPS cries for micro, but lack of ability ensures players will micro elsewhere.
Most low-mid tier units work best with their abilities, something the Hydra lacks.
Don't know what "ability" would fit it best, but to me an upgradable ability for the Hydra would make it more viable for the entire game. I think it's stats are fine, as is the weakness to specific units.
Far too slow. They are like freaking siege tanks, there's no point in trying to run with them, storm dodging and micro with them is pretty much nonexistent.
They certainly have their limited uses. I don't like the role of Hydra right now, but that's just how it is. Hydra drops are really impressive, for example. If there were buffs to it, lowered supply or gas cost, or even just a speed upgrade are what I would like to see. I am pretty disappointed at how rare it is to win with a Hydra build. I've experimented with Infestor + Hydra in the past and that seems to have some potential on more macro heavy maps when you can actually afford it.
On March 08 2011 11:17 Eknoid4 wrote: 6 months ago if you asked teamliquid if they thought there would be an NASL within the next 6 months they would have almost entirely voted "no"
Why do you think that just because you have a teamliquid account you can see the future better than blizzard or progamers? Yeah, there are problems with Hydras. Do you somehow believe blizzard will just not make changes even if they are literally never used in a single game?
Ask the reaper.
Reapers are used like every 2nd or 3rd Terran matchup in the GSL atm especially in TvP.
Ask the facts.
They are used for their utility. There is a reason no one builds more than one.
go ahead and tell that to the observer.
Reaper=quick, hit & run attacker. Used for scouting. Observer=scout. Used for scouting.
Are you really trying to tell me that the reaper's role as harasser being changed to scout isn't a problem with the unit?
Reaper: Only used for utility, usually only make one. Observer: only used for utility, usually only makes one.
I'm not saying it's not a problem at all. You are just being ridiculously absolute about how bad the reaper is, not allowing for reason or perspective, and overall just being a cliche whiner.
So if it ended up that only one hydra was made every game, you would say the unit has no problems? Just because you said zero doesn't mean that units that are made once don't have a problem.
Also any good player would get more than one observer.
A lot of good players don't. Or are you better than protoss in the GSL? My mistake. Hydra are a pure combat unit. Making 1 hydra is closer to making one stalker. Making one reaper is a lot more similar to making one egg of zerglings as far as function/purpose
On March 08 2011 10:07 dementrio wrote: Idra said somewhere that he thinks the hydra needs to be redesigned, and the way he suggested to do it is nerfing it /making it cheaper and bring it back to T1, while buffing the roach which would become t2. that seemed an interesting idea to me, because it would also fix the problem with the roach (which is a bad unit lategame, but zerg has to mass it because there's no better option).
This is funny too because right now zerg players always get tricked into teching to hydras. Oh right I'm at lair now, lemme get this hydra den and get upgrade and tech up to hydras. Problem is 90 percent of the time, they antitech down to hydras.
I laughed out loud at this. Hilarious, and so true
Making Hydras smaller would actually solve many of its problems, that or add in a speed upgrade option. There is no reason why people should be punished for making hydras, which seems to be the case right now.
On March 08 2011 09:36 Arakash wrote: I also thought about it for a while, but came to the conclusion that more than the Hydra, the creep mechanic needs a change. It just sucks, that you almost never have Creep where you actually fight! If you could bring the creep in some way or form better to the Enemy, Hydras would do much better.
(kinda a complete new topic, but meh)
oh you mean if you could SOMEHOW, bring a MAGICAL unit with you that could generate creep on the fly, right on the field of battle. wow, wouldnt that be convenient seeing as they already have one=o
On March 08 2011 09:05 bqzg wrote: i've been seeing a small resurgence of hydra in zvz and zvt, but it's almost never effective lol.
i think hydras CAN be useful in zvp (most obvious uses are against 4gate immortal pushes or pheonixes), but i really dislike them on larger maps. harder to spread creep, harder to make them mobile enough to do anything, and its easier for pheonixes to pick them off in low numbers. i think the best fix would be for their upgrade to give +2 range, it wouldn't break the game or anything (as they're too weak right now) but give the hydra a much more useful role (a weak but powerful "siege" unit).
Their lack of mobility compared to the muta in sc1 is why hydras were rarely used in ZvP (or any matchup for that matter). I have a feeling there will be some more strats developing soon with the mutalisk in sc2.
I personally think that the tier of roaches and hydras should be flipped. So for example hydras would be tier 1.5 and roaches should be 2. Obviously stats would have to be adjusted to fit their new tier. So a new buff to a 2.0 roach and a debuff to a now 1.5 hydra. But this would give zerg a better early anti air. As well i think this would help zerg against collsi later. Personal opinion. I would like to see it. This would also give hydra value in the early game. Thoughts and Opinions?
On March 08 2011 09:05 bqzg wrote: i've been seeing a small resurgence of hydra in zvz and zvt, but it's almost never effective lol.
i think hydras CAN be useful in zvp (most obvious uses are against 4gate immortal pushes or pheonixes), but i really dislike them on larger maps. harder to spread creep, harder to make them mobile enough to do anything, and its easier for pheonixes to pick them off in low numbers. i think the best fix would be for their upgrade to give +2 range, it wouldn't break the game or anything (as they're too weak right now) but give the hydra a much more useful role (a weak but powerful "siege" unit).
Their lack of mobility compared to the muta in sc1 is why hydras were rarely used in ZvP (or any matchup for that matter). I have a feeling there will be some more strats developing soon with the mutalisk in sc2.
If youre saying hydras were rarely used in ZvP in bw, or any matchup then i cant even begin to describe how wrong this statement is
On March 08 2011 11:17 Eknoid4 wrote: 6 months ago if you asked teamliquid if they thought there would be an NASL within the next 6 months they would have almost entirely voted "no"
Why do you think that just because you have a teamliquid account you can see the future better than blizzard or progamers? Yeah, there are problems with Hydras. Do you somehow believe blizzard will just not make changes even if they are literally never used in a single game?
Ask the reaper.
Reapers are used like every 2nd or 3rd Terran matchup in the GSL atm especially in TvP.
Ask the facts.
They are used for their utility. There is a reason no one builds more than one.
go ahead and tell that to the observer.
Reaper=quick, hit & run attacker. Used for scouting. Observer=scout. Used for scouting.
Are you really trying to tell me that the reaper's role as harasser being changed to scout isn't a problem with the unit?
Reaper: Only used for utility, usually only make one. Observer: only used for utility, usually only makes one.
I'm not saying it's not a problem at all. You are just being ridiculously absolute about how bad the reaper is, not allowing for reason or perspective, and overall just being a cliche whiner.
So if it ended up that only one hydra was made every game, you would say the unit has no problems? Just because you said zero doesn't mean that units that are made once don't have a problem.
Also any good player would get more than one observer.
A lot of good players don't. Or are you better than protoss in the GSL? My mistake. Hydra are a pure combat unit. Making 1 hydra is closer to making one stalker. Making one reaper is a lot more similar to making one egg of zerglings as far as function/purpose
The main reason only one observer is built is since it takes up precious production time from the robo when colossi/immortals are so important.
Making one hydra is much more different than making a pair of lings/reaper. You end up paying not just for a hydra, but an additional 100/100+drone for the tech. Compare this to lings/reaper, where the tech is always there in every game.
On March 08 2011 09:05 bqzg wrote: i've been seeing a small resurgence of hydra in zvz and zvt, but it's almost never effective lol.
i think hydras CAN be useful in zvp (most obvious uses are against 4gate immortal pushes or pheonixes), but i really dislike them on larger maps. harder to spread creep, harder to make them mobile enough to do anything, and its easier for pheonixes to pick them off in low numbers. i think the best fix would be for their upgrade to give +2 range, it wouldn't break the game or anything (as they're too weak right now) but give the hydra a much more useful role (a weak but powerful "siege" unit).
Their lack of mobility compared to the muta in sc1 is why hydras were rarely used in ZvP (or any matchup for that matter). I have a feeling there will be some more strats developing soon with the mutalisk in sc2.
If youre saying hydras were rarely used in ZvP in bw, or any matchup then i cant even begin to describe how wrong this statement is
Sorry, wrong word. Maybe I should have used not as oftenly used rather than rarely. But I only meant that because I was referring to map control. Yes hydras can do that, but having an army of mutalisks is by far superior in map control ability imo.
On March 08 2011 09:05 bqzg wrote: i've been seeing a small resurgence of hydra in zvz and zvt, but it's almost never effective lol.
i think hydras CAN be useful in zvp (most obvious uses are against 4gate immortal pushes or pheonixes), but i really dislike them on larger maps. harder to spread creep, harder to make them mobile enough to do anything, and its easier for pheonixes to pick them off in low numbers. i think the best fix would be for their upgrade to give +2 range, it wouldn't break the game or anything (as they're too weak right now) but give the hydra a much more useful role (a weak but powerful "siege" unit).
Their lack of mobility compared to the muta in sc1 is why hydras were rarely used in ZvP (or any matchup for that matter). I have a feeling there will be some more strats developing soon with the mutalisk in sc2.
If youre saying hydras were rarely used in ZvP in bw, or any matchup then i cant even begin to describe how wrong this statement is
Sorry, wrong word. Maybe I should have used not as oftenly used rather than rarely. But I only meant that because I was referring to map control. Yes hydras can do that, but having an army of mutalisks is by far superior in map control ability imo.
Hydras were unused in ZvZ since they get decimated by lings, mutas, and lurkers.
On March 08 2011 11:48 Canucklehead wrote: Someone wasn't watching moon's hydra drops at iem.
So you need 150/150 hydra range, 100/100 overlord speed, 200/200 overlord drop, and constantly drop on top of protoss expos when they're not paying attention (not to mention a lot of other units to prevent just a base trade) is the solution to the hydra? Something sounds wrong about that.
On March 08 2011 11:48 Canucklehead wrote: Someone wasn't watching moon's hydra drops at iem.
So you need 150/150 hydra range, 100/100 overlord speed, 200/200 overlord drop, and constantly drop on top of protoss expos when they're not paying attention (not to mention a lot of other units to prevent just a base trade) is the solution to the hydra? Something sounds wrong about that.
Ling drops are much more powerful and cheaper.
Also, I tend not to include the 100/100 overlord speed since it's such an important tool for scouting.
On March 08 2011 09:05 bqzg wrote: i've been seeing a small resurgence of hydra in zvz and zvt, but it's almost never effective lol.
i think hydras CAN be useful in zvp (most obvious uses are against 4gate immortal pushes or pheonixes), but i really dislike them on larger maps. harder to spread creep, harder to make them mobile enough to do anything, and its easier for pheonixes to pick them off in low numbers. i think the best fix would be for their upgrade to give +2 range, it wouldn't break the game or anything (as they're too weak right now) but give the hydra a much more useful role (a weak but powerful "siege" unit).
Their lack of mobility compared to the muta in sc1 is why hydras were rarely used in ZvP (or any matchup for that matter). I have a feeling there will be some more strats developing soon with the mutalisk in sc2.
If youre saying hydras were rarely used in ZvP in bw, or any matchup then i cant even begin to describe how wrong this statement is
Sorry, wrong word. Maybe I should have used not as oftenly used rather than rarely. But I only meant that because I was referring to map control. Yes hydras can do that, but having an army of mutalisks is by far superior in map control ability imo.
Hydras were unused in ZvZ since they get decimated by lings, mutas, and lurkers.
Hydras were required vs mech vs terran(when it was still popular) and required to survive alot of protoss pushes unless they just turtled with sunk spore lurk which was pretty common
It doesn't help that Queens are actually far more effective AA units in terms of pure cost effectiveness. Obviously they're slower, but to chase AA down you really need mutas or corruptors anyway...
On March 08 2011 12:31 DoubleReed wrote: It doesn't help that Queens are actually far more effective AA units in terms of pure cost effectiveness. Obviously they're slower, but to chase AA down you really need mutas or corruptors anyway...
Speed buff and an extra 10 hp would work wonders. As it is, they are just a bad unit vs pretty much any army but pure gateway units. I still try to make some vs P for the damage boost, but I make far less than I used to and have been more successful because of it.
Hydras are amazing in ZvP, but they are a one time deal and that's about it. They deal with mass air openings, blink stalkers and any form of 6 gate really well. They also work great in doom drop timings off 2 base, where you just get a lot of hydras. The drop is really only effective against FFE or 3 gate sentry expand because your opponent is behind on tech in both cases otherwise the typical 4 gate or even 1 base colossi will roll over a hydra drop push. The hydra is only effective up to a certain point, and then just get steam rolled, from that point on there is no real reason to use hydras when you can spam roaches.
It sucks though, the hydra is such a great unit but it just completely fails at it's job. Why get a GtA slow as hell unit when you can just get corrupters later in the game? Roaches obviously fulfill the mass ground unit so hydras don't really have a place except when you need GtA early on. But I fear blizzard will never buff this unit or change it's tier because of the Queen. Having Queen and hydra at both T1 would shut down so much Air play and I think it's fine to see 1 base air. Queens already deal remarkably well against 1 base air builds, so having hydras also on T1 would just be redundant. Buffing them as a T2 unit also doesn't seem likely because they are incredibly strong at the right timings. Like I said, a drop or even nydus hydra push is very effective but only at a certain point in the game, if they were any stronger then hydra pushes would be used in ZvP and just roll over toss all day.
All in all, I have no idea how they would rebalance the hydra. Hell even reapers are seeing usage in TvP and TvZ and BC's are used in TvT, motherships are starting to be used that leaves the only really underused units as the Carrier and Hydra but I'm pretty sure we'll see uses for Carriers as the game evolves.
Maybe it's not the hydra's fault. Blizzard has made the roach do everything the hydra can, except shoot air. Maybe roaches need a dps nerf to become more of a tank unit and the hydra a dps unit, which I think was Blizzard's original plan.
On March 08 2011 10:35 StrifeCro wrote: I've recently done a ton of testing with hydras in ZvP.
Roaches are almost certainly better vs gateway units after their specific upgrades, any kind of surface area problems because roaches are 4 range/hydras 6 range is resolved by using burrow movement underneath forcefields.
In almost any kind of battle vs collosus, roach/corruptor is better than mixing in roach/hydra/corruptor. Even after you get tier 3 for broodlords, roach/broodlord is much stronger than hydra/broodlord vs gateway/collosus up to the point that even 1:1 roaches are better usually in that combo.
The only reason to make hydras is versus voidrays as anti air and versus immortals. Thing is hydras are pretty unusable off of creep and on creep queens are much better as anti air anyways versus void rays. Burrow movement roach armies beat immortal + gateway units similar cost armies anyways and have more more options of split attacks/base trading only reason to add in hydras would be approaching 200 food cap playing defensive vs 2 base all in protoss with immortals.
Of course there are some all in 2 base hydra busts or some all in hydra doom drops vs protoss but the unit is definitely just "dying" in sc2.
ZvT nobody ever uses hydras. ZvZ nobody should ever use hydras pretty much, roach/infestor is way way stronger than roach/hydra, don't even think roach/hydra beats mass roach as long as you can force fights before 200 food.
yeah I agree with pretty much everything here. What's funny is that they're going to change the corruptor to be slightly better vs air units rather than adjusting the hydralisk. Don't get me wrong, I think it's good as the corruptor needed a change and having +massive was pretty silly. I'm just bemused at how they seem to think the hydralisk is fine given how long it's remained untouched.
On March 08 2011 10:35 StrifeCro wrote: I've recently done a ton of testing with hydras in ZvP.
Roaches are almost certainly better vs gateway units after their specific upgrades, any kind of surface area problems because roaches are 4 range/hydras 6 range is resolved by using burrow movement underneath forcefields.
In almost any kind of battle vs collosus, roach/corruptor is better than mixing in roach/hydra/corruptor. Even after you get tier 3 for broodlords, roach/broodlord is much stronger than hydra/broodlord vs gateway/collosus up to the point that even 1:1 roaches are better usually in that combo.
The only reason to make hydras is versus voidrays as anti air and versus immortals. Thing is hydras are pretty unusable off of creep and on creep queens are much better as anti air anyways versus void rays. Burrow movement roach armies beat immortal + gateway units similar cost armies anyways and have more more options of split attacks/base trading only reason to add in hydras would be approaching 200 food cap playing defensive vs 2 base all in protoss with immortals.
Of course there are some all in 2 base hydra busts or some all in hydra doom drops vs protoss but the unit is definitely just "dying" in sc2.
ZvT nobody ever uses hydras. ZvZ nobody should ever use hydras pretty much, roach/infestor is way way stronger than roach/hydra, don't even think roach/hydra beats mass roach as long as you can force fights before 200 food.
hydra are still needed vs voids, if hes getting quite a few of them, you dont want to be making 5+queens, its much better to get some hydra as they can also bolster your army.
also how would you deal with phoenix? i honestly cant see a good toss getting caught by the missile unless its lagging, they (the phoenix) are just too damn fast
also i remember watching mr Bitters 12weeks with the pro thing when idra was on discussing ZvZ and he said that he prefers to get hydra to infestor, and that roach hydra will beat pure roach everytime given that there is some form of choke, (so a map like scrap where there is no open areas for a 200poproach army) as the hydra have a range advantage.
On March 08 2011 10:35 StrifeCro wrote: I've recently done a ton of testing with hydras in ZvP.
Roaches are almost certainly better vs gateway units after their specific upgrades, any kind of surface area problems because roaches are 4 range/hydras 6 range is resolved by using burrow movement underneath forcefields.
In almost any kind of battle vs collosus, roach/corruptor is better than mixing in roach/hydra/corruptor. Even after you get tier 3 for broodlords, roach/broodlord is much stronger than hydra/broodlord vs gateway/collosus up to the point that even 1:1 roaches are better usually in that combo.
The only reason to make hydras is versus voidrays as anti air and versus immortals. Thing is hydras are pretty unusable off of creep and on creep queens are much better as anti air anyways versus void rays. Burrow movement roach armies beat immortal + gateway units similar cost armies anyways and have more more options of split attacks/base trading only reason to add in hydras would be approaching 200 food cap playing defensive vs 2 base all in protoss with immortals.
Of course there are some all in 2 base hydra busts or some all in hydra doom drops vs protoss but the unit is definitely just "dying" in sc2.
ZvT nobody ever uses hydras. ZvZ nobody should ever use hydras pretty much, roach/infestor is way way stronger than roach/hydra, don't even think roach/hydra beats mass roach as long as you can force fights before 200 food.
yeah I agree with pretty much everything here. What's funny is that they're going to change the corruptor to be slightly better vs air units rather than adjusting the hydralisk. Don't get me wrong, I think it's good as the corruptor needed a change and having +massive was pretty silly. I'm just bemused at how they seem to think the hydralisk is fine given how long it's remained untouched.
Thanks for contributing some high-level opinions guys, was really interesting to read.
In closed (as in devs + family and friends) beta they had hydras at their bw position in tech trees and roach was T2. They should seriously just do the bw t1 1food hydra with speed upgrade available at lair. An easier to get unit that shoots both air and ground would also help immensely dealing with dumb cheeses where you have to guess whether to spam queens or crawlers/lings or whatever, this would enable zerg to *gasp* actually have a safe route of playing like the other races where you cant instalose to 2 banshee or a voidray or whatever flying into your base. This will of course never happen and I feel blizzard are clueless of what to do with the hydra. The last change they did to it was lowering its hp from 90 to 80 which was just so uncalled for on every level.
On March 08 2011 13:38 vilg wrote: In closed (as in devs + family and friends) beta they had hydras at their bw position in tech trees and roach was T2. They should seriously just do the bw t1 1food hydra with speed upgrade available at lair. An easier to get unit that shoots both air and ground would also help immensely dealing with dumb cheeses where you have to guess whether to spam queens or crawlers/lings or whatever, this would enable zerg to *gasp* actually have a safe route of playing like the other races where you cant instalose to 2 banshee or a voidray or whatever flying into your base. This will of course never happen and I feel blizzard are clueless of what to do with the hydra. The last change they did to it was lowering its hp from 90 to 80 which was just so uncalled for on every level.
Yeah I agree, but I doubt Blizz would ever change a tech tree like that once the game has been released. Maybe in the Expansions it will happen!
^ lurkers were also in SC2 in early stages closed beta but were removed and they will not work in this game for several reasons; no dark swarm being a biggest.
What would happen if you changed the hydra's armor type from light to none (just bio)? They still won't be cost effective against terran, but can do MUCH better in ZvP, as they aren't super hard-countered by collosi.
EDIT: Collosi don't get bonuses vs light. Well I guess you learn something new every day A health and/or speed buff seem like an obvious fix for hydras, but maybe something to make it more niche like a passive slow or stacking damage or stacking range reduction on units hit.
On March 08 2011 14:05 Lobotomist wrote: What would happen if you changed the hydra's armor type from light to none (just bio)? They still won't be cost effective against terran, but can do MUCH better in ZvP, as they aren't super hard-countered by collosi.
I thought Colossi don't do additional damage to light, they just to a set amount of damage? Have I been fooled all along?
On March 08 2011 09:10 STALLONEZONE wrote: The problem with Hydra at the moment is that as soon as you take them off creep, you're essentially going all in with them, as retreat is not an option. ZvZ is currently the only matchup where hydras really see use, or they get broken out as an AA unit in ZvP.
The easiest/best change to hydras imo would be to give them tunnelling claws, this would make people more willing to use them in their army in ZvP because they can do FF avoidance just like with roaches, currently, if you burrow to avoid FF, your hydras sit still and die, and if you burrow your roaches only, theyre not tanking for your hydras anymore and are dying. The problem mainly is that hydras don't actually work too great with roaches! Apart from being able to outrange them, they still sit at perfect collosus range though. In ZvZ, really you just use them to get an extra bit of DPS out due to range where your roaches wouldn't, it's really map dependent, again, infestors are better than hydras. I can't imagine a situation where you'd build Hydras in ZvT, there's the fungal/hydra range trick, but that's about to become even worse with the new patch.
Not if you use a forward Nydus and do some quick creep spread with a few Queens (or Overlords), who can also heal your glass cannon Hydras, either in battle or during a retreat to the Nydus. The issue is that you need to establish map/vision control first or else it'll likely get snuffed out before enough creep is out. The Queens also help vs Colossi, although you'll need a larger number of them to really make a difference in taking them out.
The problem is in the mobility and the survivability. The cost is fine, space is fine, damage is fine, etc. However, I would prefer survivability over mobility. Just make hydras actually survive collosi for longer, then they would be used a bit more late game. However, they are still great choices when the opponent has few/no collosi and you have plenty of resources. Also, there was this hydra/ling strat that came out recently and is apparently very effective. EDIT: They also nullify air. Most of the time.
It sucks that hydras are completely useless against terran. In Brood war they could be used against terran mech or even combined with lurkers against SK terran but in SC2 they get slaughtered vs terran anything.
I guess you could say the same for BCs vs zerg at the moment as well but think they have a bit more potential.
The change to the infestor is going to make less people want to use them, not more (at least at a decently high level of play). A lot of people say that the infestor will now be the anti deathball unit, which is ridiculous. In order to grab that entire ball of units and keep them from just focusing your infestors down, you're going to need a LOT of them and a hell of a lot of luck to even hit what you want due to the projectile.
So, IMO, there will be no change in the dynamic of ZvP, it's going probably going to be roach corrupter hydra with bane drops until HotS comes out, and maybe even then.
On March 08 2011 14:05 Lobotomist wrote: What would happen if you changed the hydra's armor type from light to none (just bio)? They still won't be cost effective against terran, but can do MUCH better in ZvP, as they aren't super hard-countered by collosi.
I thought Colossi don't do additional damage to light, they just to a set amount of damage? Have I been fooled all along?
No you are indeed correct and the poster you quoted is not. The only units with a bonus to light ground are hellions, reapers, banelings and ghosts. The Hydra's light classification doesn't hinder it in any significant way.
I've always loved Hydras, but currently they're not a needed unit. I still like to build them in ZvZ and ZvP, but other units fulfil the Hydra Role in a better way.
On March 08 2011 14:18 TheDominator wrote: The problem is in the mobility and the survivability. The cost is fine, space is fine, damage is fine, etc. However, I would prefer survivability over mobility. Just make hydras actually survive collosi for longer, then they would be used a bit more late game. However, they are still great choices when the opponent has few/no collosi and you have plenty of resources. Also, there was this hydra/ling strat that came out recently and is apparently very effective. EDIT: They also nullify air. Most of the time.
if there's two way to fix a problem. i would much rather pick the one that increases the skill level of the game.
speed over survivability is my pick.
speed actually increases survivability too since you can run away from battle keeping your hydras alive instead of being committed everytime you have a hydra army.
On March 08 2011 14:05 Lobotomist wrote: What would happen if you changed the hydra's armor type from light to none (just bio)? They still won't be cost effective against terran, but can do MUCH better in ZvP, as they aren't super hard-countered by collosi.
EDIT: Collosi don't get bonuses vs light. Well I guess you learn something new every day A health and/or speed buff seem like an obvious fix for hydras, but maybe something to make it more niche like a passive slow or stacking damage or stacking range reduction on units hit.
they should make hydras bio rather than light, because they get owned just too easily by phoenixs that do bonus to light also blue flame hellions wouldn't be so effective against them so we could see them used somewhat in ZvT. Also as bio classification, they wouldn't get stomped by banelings so easily making hydras slightly more viable in ZvZ.
Also making hydras T1 with BW stats wouldn't help either, because zerg already has queens for early air defense. I think early air builds should remain viable, it doesn't seem balanced if XvZ is made so that there is just no way to go air because of queens and hydras. I just can't see T1 hydras fitting in the current game when roaches are already in it. And if roaches were T2 we'd get stomped by hellion and reaper pushes, 4 gate would crush zerg players and banelings would be all we see in ZvZ. Roaches need to remain T1 and hydras need to remain T2.
With the change to infestors, Hydras will become more or less the only way to counter early Phoenix rushes, as well as early banshee pushes. With fungal growth becoming a relatively slow moving projectile, hitting stimmed marines or blink stalkers will be difficult, let alone phoenixes.
Hydras will still have a role in ZvP, though it is shrinking significantly. They're still good at holding off Gateway units with relative ease, do well against protoss air (with the exception of carriers), and are decent against templar tech is micro'd effectively.
Since they are supposed to be the damage dealers in the back like, tanks, void rays, coli etc they do seem a little light on the armor and durability... this is coming from a terran.
On March 08 2011 14:33 Logican wrote: even though u didnt INTEND for it to be balanced, it TURNED OUT to be a flat out balance discussion. guilty act without guilty mind.
Cols need nerf, hydras are fine.
I still maintain that Hydra's problem isn't being bad, its that it doesn't fit with the Zerg race in its current state.
Like I actually think if Hydras were a Terran unit, Terran would use them, lol.
On March 08 2011 14:33 Logican wrote: even though u didnt INTEND for it to be balanced, it TURNED OUT to be a flat out balance discussion. guilty act without guilty mind.
Cols need nerf, hydras are fine.
I still maintain that Hydra's problem isn't being bad, its that it doesn't fit with the Zerg race in its current state.
Like I actually think if Hydras were a Terran unit, Terran would use them, lol.
i doubt it.. why would terran ever use hydras over marines?
they wouldn't obviously, as a hydra does the exact same damage as 2 unstimmed marines, where 2 marines are 50 gas cheaper and has the ability to stim for greater dps and much faster movement..
Just not that great of a unit, i only use it in ZvZ because im not a fan of inestor in ZvZ, but if next patch goes through as is then infestor will be the only way to go.
ZvT obviously never used, vP im not 100% sure if they are worth it personally, i have a lot of success with roach/corrupter, arguably the same or more as roach/corrupter/hydra.
except for the fact that it is ranged and can attack air.
So your pretty much paying 75 minerals and 50 gas extra just to get 45 extra hp (too little, hydras die too ez), ranged attack, and air attack
In addition, you also lose the mobility of a zergling. There is no dark swarm to support Hydra's low heath and no lurker transition.
Hydras used to be the backbone of the Zerg's arsenal. I rather they made Hydras tier 1.5 and roaches tier 2 but its too late for that. Blizzard really screwed up with the hydralisk.
On March 08 2011 09:20 Ownos wrote: Yeah a unit that compeltely trumps all protoss infantry is garbage. If there is a reason you won't see a lot of hydras in late game play is because of colossi.
Come on hydras aren't even that great vs. gateway army if toss knows what to do. Good forcefields/zealots and you hydras are dead. Also phoenixes tear apart them even though hydras should counter them.
If toss makes a push with phoenix/zealot/stalker and you have hydras then you are dead. You may think "cool hydras are perfect counter to phoenix/zealot/stalker", but no, poenixes lift up all hydras and you no longer have army.
And collosus tech is really easy to get, that means even if you got hydras mid game that means you have very very small timing window to do anything with them until collosus pop out.
On March 08 2011 14:33 Logican wrote: even though u didnt INTEND for it to be balanced, it TURNED OUT to be a flat out balance discussion. guilty act without guilty mind.
Cols need nerf, hydras are fine.
I still maintain that Hydra's problem isn't being bad, its that it doesn't fit with the Zerg race in its current state.
Like I actually think if Hydras were a Terran unit, Terran would use them, lol.
Yeah, but then they'd have stim :p
I think the Hydra's durability really works against them. What happens is they're t2, but not really effective until you get the range upgrade, maybe some other ups too, and get a decent amount of them.
I think when the problem arises, and this is either a problem with the way the race is, or is played, is because Zerg gets access to Hydra tech early enough to use it for defensive needs, but by the time the Zerg would be able to push with it, and has the numbers or upgrades to do so, the opponent will have units out that deal with the Hydra, like tanks, or colossus, or whatever, because the Hydra is very fragile to these kinds of units. So you get this unit, that can't really be used offensively outside of a few specific busts/timing pushes, because by the time it reaches its full potential to deal damage, it is nullified by something else. I'm not saying it can't be used for harass, but I'm talking about as a main army unit.
On March 08 2011 15:10 aztrorisk wrote: Hydras suck
they have the exact same dps as a zergling
except for the fact that it is ranged and can attack air.
So your pretty much paying 75 minerals and 50 gas extra just to get 45 extra hp (too little, hydras die too ez), ranged attack, and air attack
In addition, you also lose the mobility of a zergling. There is no dark swarm to support Hydra's low heath and no lurker transition.
Hydras used to be the backbone of the Zerg's arsenal. I rather they made Hydras tier 1.5 and roaches tier 2 but its too late for that. Blizzard really screwed up with the hydralisk.
More like the entire Zerg race as a whole. They completely remove units that fill seemingly important roles (AOE damage (Lurkers), tier 1/2 anti air (hydras and scourge), support spellcaster (defiler)) and put in infestors, banelings and corruptors in their place? Not only are these units far less effective at those roles, they are way less interesting and fun to use.
The only way I can see hydras even being somewhat interesting under the current tech tree is some combination of 1) lowering their cost to 100/25 2) making them do less damage vs light and more/same damage vs armored so they have a more defined role 3) giving them a damn speed upgrade. The fact that hydras lose 33% of their speed off creep compared to how other units lose 23% seems like just another shitty idea Blizzard just pulled out of their ass and fell in love with; you know, kind of like the mothership and the reaper.
On March 08 2011 15:10 aztrorisk wrote: Hydras suck
they have the exact same dps as a zergling
except for the fact that it is ranged and can attack air.
So your pretty much paying 75 minerals and 50 gas extra just to get 45 extra hp (too little, hydras die too ez), ranged attack, and air attack
In addition, you also lose the mobility of a zergling. There is no dark swarm to support Hydra's low heath and no lurker transition.
Hydras used to be the backbone of the Zerg's arsenal. I rather they made Hydras tier 1.5 and roaches tier 2 but its too late for that. Blizzard really screwed up with the hydralisk.
More like the entire zerg race as a whole. They completely remove essential units that fill seemingly important roles (AOE damage (Lurkers), tier 1/2 anti air (hydras and scourge), support spellcaster (defiler)) and put in infestors, banelings and corruptors in their place? Not only are these units far less effective at those roles, they are way less interesting and fun to use.
I don't play zerg so I can't really comment on their usefulness and since I'm a Terran I don't really see them ever, but as far as Hydras go, maybe make them Hatch tech at 100/25 (Marauder cost) with no creep speed bonus but kick their base speed up a notch. Maybe that's a bit too much but I feel like if you removed the Hydra's bonus off creep and just made their speed on creep their standard speed a lot of issues with them would be gone.
Going from 80hp back to 90hp would actually be a decent buff - goes from Colossi 2-shotting to 3-shotting which should be noticeable, as well as 4-shot --> 5 shot for phoenixes. Perhaps making the range upgrade +2 instead of +1 would also help their survivability and usefulness (too much?) As far as glass cannons go though, they sure seem to pale in comparison to marines. Not only do marines give more bang for the buck, they feel expendable, while hydras feel expensive.
Hydras would be a lot better if there was some way for zergs to force battles to happen on creep. Hydras can actually be microed on creep - perhaps offensive creep spreading will become more popular in the future, but it is hard to establish due to how easy it is to kill creep tumors and overlords. Perhaps creep should persist longer after overlords/creep tumors are gone, but it's hard to buff offensive creep without also making it more powerful for expansion denial.
Hydras are great to have a few of. They cover your ground armies, defend your bases and they are great for drops and nydus. They are the only zerg unit which can really use high ground line of sight play, except for perhaps the infestor.
I voted "No, they are not dying" because they have very specific use, mostly late game when you can get away with having access to all techs.
I voted "Yes, they need a change" because I'd like to see those uses broadened. The unit itself is powerful but it doesn't really move well with the rest of the zerg army, doesn't fit well in a control group with other units
On March 08 2011 15:28 Ksi wrote: More like the entire zerg race as a whole. They completely remove essential units that fill seemingly important roles (AOE damage (Lurkers), tier 1/2 anti air (hydras and scourge), support spellcaster (defiler)) and put in infestors, banelings and corruptors in their place? Not only are these units far less effective at those roles, they are way less interesting and fun to use.
I agree, and Terran got Marines buffed (which Lurkers countered better than Banelings), Medic/Dropship replaced with Medivac, PF... I don't understand. It's not fun seeing hydras melt.
I'm not a Z player but they seem fairly meh. Their role is so different to SC1 and i prefer the feel of the old hydra. They work a core and somewhat bulky all round unit, now they seem to be a glass cannon that is far too slow for its hp..
On March 08 2011 11:49 bittman wrote: I've seen some people say that a glass cannon DPS unit does not fit zerg, when in fact I think it fits it to a "T". If anything, perhaps they need something to enhance their longevity. In particular: I'm talking about an ability.
I'd class Stalkers as the closest "equivalent" unit to the Hydra, with similar-ish costs. The stalkers, despite -1 range and a weakness to Hydras, at least have the Blink ability which makes them more devastating when used correctly. Even the terran anti-ground+air (the marine) has an ability called stimpack. The Hydra's DPS cries for micro, but lack of ability ensures players will micro elsewhere.
Most low-mid tier units work best with their abilities, something the Hydra lacks.
Don't know what "ability" would fit it best, but to me an upgradable ability for the Hydra would make it more viable for the entire game. I think it's stats are fine, as is the weakness to specific units.
Just my two cents.
i agree with this completely. Some kind of ability to micro the hydra would make zerg so much more fun
The thing that I allways can't help but wonder, why where they changed from BW ? I mean, they remained 80hp but their tech and other stats was changed? why this change in the first place ?
I would like to see zerg be more like it was back then. And it was balanced ackording to high lvl of play. BROODWAR BLIZZARD!. the game that alot of people played for so long and you guys just put it in a trashcan with sc2 >.<. All the balance research in BW
Its very simple..... switch roach and hydra dens in the tech tree. Would give variety and make the hydra have a purpose... early on aa and dmg... which then in htos they could bring back the lurker in t2 and all would be right with the world. This also means zerg has to tech towards a stronger tanking unit. Roachs t2 then ultras t3.... Makes sense for units to get stronger the further up you go.
On March 08 2011 17:01 Worm Shoes wrote: Hydras should be changed to an Armoured Unit to stop siege squish and colossi smash...
and maybe make the roach a light unit but increase the health and spawn with +X armour like in beta :D
Armored modifier has nothing to do here - collosus does huge splash damage to everything. If hydra were armored it would be even more useless.
I agree with people above - hydra should be fast moving unit, where you can flank, retreat and micro them. Now if you decide to push with hydra off creep you pretty much commited to an attack, so you either win or lose every single hydra.
I am wondering why hydra is so slow? Blizzard thinks that fast hydra would be OP or what? I seriously can't understand the reasoning behind that.
After patch 1.3 we'll either never see hydras in ZvZ or only see hydras in ZvZ, I mean, it'd make sense to go hydra/infestor against a player who is going roach/infestor, since your infestors would do much more damage than theirs. But I really think the roach & the hydra need to swap places, except the hydra probably needs to be 1 supply if it goes down to tier 1, and with a bit of a damage nerf too.
On March 08 2011 16:10 darkscream wrote: Hydras are great to have a few of. They cover your ground armies, defend your bases and they are great for drops and nydus. They are the only zerg unit which can really use high ground line of sight play, except for perhaps the infestor.
I voted "No, they are not dying" because they have very specific use, mostly late game when you can get away with having access to all techs.
I voted "Yes, they need a change" because I'd like to see those uses broadened. The unit itself is powerful but it doesn't really move well with the rest of the zerg army, doesn't fit well in a control group with other units
Hydras have a lategame use? Against what race exactly? In ZvP, lategame P has access to storms and/or colossi. Hydras are the absolute worst unit to have. In TvP, lategame T has tanks and stim. Once again, hydras are horribly cost-inefficient.
Every unit has their place, and Hydras are ridiculously powerful when used correctly.
If you think your Hydras are dying too fast and are ineffective, perhaps you are not using them correctly. In ZvP, 2 base Hydra pushes are nearly impossible to stop (or scout, mind you) and they're incredibly effective against any type of Protoss air. Stop complaining about imba or UP, use your units in the way that makes them the most cost effective possible. Hydras against Collosus is not cost effective.
Yeah, I'm kind of trolling this thread. But at least understand my argument, it's legitimate.
Reduce gas cost somewhat so that the hydra can be easier to mass, and make it faster off creep.
The biggest problem now apart from the shit cost/health ratio is that every time you attack with hydras you are basically saying that these units are committed and can't ever retreat or maneuver.
It is the combination of extremely low health combined with extremely low mobility that makes it near worthless. Either you need to buff the number of hydras you can field, OR the health points of them, OR the mobility.
On March 08 2011 17:09 Barca wrote: You people are ridiculous.
Every unit has their place, and Hydras are ridiculously powerful when used correctly.
If you think your Hydras are dying too fast and are ineffective, perhaps you are not using them correctly. In ZvP, 2 base Hydra pushes are nearly impossible to stop (or scout, mind you) and they're incredibly effective against any type of Protoss air. Stop complaining about imba or UP, use your units in the way that makes them the most cost effective possible. Hydras against Collosus is not cost effective.
Yeah, I'm kind of trolling this thread. But at least understand my argument, it's legitimate.
Force field + blink stalker completely decimates any 2 base hydra/roach push. Maybe you're talking about gold level?
On March 08 2011 17:09 Barca wrote: You people are ridiculous.
Every unit has their place, and Hydras are ridiculously powerful when used correctly.
If you think your Hydras are dying too fast and are ineffective, perhaps you are not using them correctly. In ZvP, 2 base Hydra pushes are nearly impossible to stop (or scout, mind you) and they're incredibly effective against any type of Protoss air. Stop complaining about imba or UP, use your units in the way that makes them the most cost effective possible. Hydras against Collosus is not cost effective.
Yeah, I'm kind of trolling this thread. But at least understand my argument, it's legitimate.
For the most part i actually agree with this. I am by no means a high ranked player, but in my experience hydras are very good, they just need to be used in tandem with another unit (aka, roach or infestor or lings). By themselves they'll melt, but with a bit of a shield or placeholder(infestor) they're awesome. With the infestor buff (or nerf, depending on how you look at it), its kinda hard to say though. I do think they need a speed buff, but otherwise i love using them.
On March 08 2011 17:09 Barca wrote: You people are ridiculous.
Every unit has their place, and Hydras are ridiculously powerful when used correctly.
If you think your Hydras are dying too fast and are ineffective, perhaps you are not using them correctly. In ZvP, 2 base Hydra pushes are nearly impossible to stop (or scout, mind you) and they're incredibly effective against any type of Protoss air. Stop complaining about imba or UP, use your units in the way that makes them the most cost effective possible. Hydras against Collosus is not cost effective.
Yeah, I'm kind of trolling this thread. But at least understand my argument, it's legitimate.
No, its not legitimate, its poorly made argument about a point thats completely wrong. Must be tough to spot hydras snailing across the map at the speed of smell, cant be serious. A 2 base hydra push? maybe on incineration zone after a 15nexus expand its scary.
Dont play the role of wannabe balance hero who posts l2p when you have no clue what you are talking about, and if you want to whine about whining at least have some argument besides calling people stupid.. Yea gateway units, feel free to throw that out there, but any standard protoss play will have colossi churning out when hydras are starting. A lot of PvZ strategies specifically try and force hydras so toss can abuse Colossi or storm to steamroll Z.
vT needs no explanation if you are above bronze league.
The hydra's place in the tech tree needs to be changed in HoTS. It simply doesn't work as a T2 unit because by the time there is access to them better options have already been opened. Since we can only hope for this kind of change in an expansion, the best options would be to remove the light modifier (hydra's were "medium" units in bw), buff it's health, or it's speed. This however, runs the risk of making the hydra OP. I don't believe the hydralisk is underused because it's underpowered, I think it's underused because of it's place in the tech tree.
Also, don't forget to consider Moon's games on the IEM. Of course that argument would'nt count for normal players. But still,when used with drops all over the place, Hydras are a lategame-threat to protoss.
On March 08 2011 17:09 Barca wrote: You people are ridiculous.
Every unit has their place, and Hydras are ridiculously powerful when used correctly.
If you think your Hydras are dying too fast and are ineffective, perhaps you are not using them correctly. In ZvP, 2 base Hydra pushes are nearly impossible to stop (or scout, mind you) and they're incredibly effective against any type of Protoss air. Stop complaining about imba or UP, use your units in the way that makes them the most cost effective possible. Hydras against Collosus is not cost effective.
Yeah, I'm kind of trolling this thread. But at least understand my argument, it's legitimate.
I agree, not with the trolling, but Hydra pushes can be quite good, and hard to see coming. 80hp really is reasonable for the cost and they have such high dps, more than twice that of Marines. They are so good vs Phoenix and VRs. Have Roaches tank and hydras back them up. If opponent goes for collosi counter with corruptors, do not take them head on sweep in with corruptor and snipe a collosi and move back out. Try to catch a stray one on the way to reinforce the main toss force.
The big problem with Hydras is that you cant micro them. That is a major problem with almost all of the zergs units. Either they dont need or work better with micro, or you just cant micro them like the hydras. If you get hit by a storm it is better to just sit there and take it than try to avoid it, since the hydras are so slow they wont get out of it anyway. I want some unit that I can micro, and not just a-move (or just move like the blings )
On March 08 2011 17:09 Barca wrote: You people are ridiculous.
Every unit has their place, and Hydras are ridiculously powerful when used correctly.
If you think your Hydras are dying too fast and are ineffective, perhaps you are not using them correctly. In ZvP, 2 base Hydra pushes are nearly impossible to stop (or scout, mind you) and they're incredibly effective against any type of Protoss air. Stop complaining about imba or UP, use your units in the way that makes them the most cost effective possible. Hydras against Collosus is not cost effective.
Yeah, I'm kind of trolling this thread. But at least understand my argument, it's legitimate.
I agree, not with the trolling, but Hydra pushes can be quite good, and hard to see coming. 80hp really is reasonable for the cost and they have such high dps, more than twice that of Marines. They are so good vs Phoenix and VRs. Have Roaches tank and hydras back them up. If opponent goes for collosi counter with corruptors, do not take them head on sweep in with corruptor and snipe a collosi and move back out. Try to catch a stray one on the way to reinforce the main toss force.
You're comparing a 50 minerals 1 supply unit with a 100minerals + 50 gas unit...That's like saying... The ultralisk is better because it has more hp than a Zergling -_-"
But for cost, the marine out dps and has more hp than the hydra. 2 marines will have TEN more hp than a hydra for the same mineral cost and supply cost. I'm not even counting the gas cost (which many agrees is more important than min cost). Nor am I considering combat shield upgrade yet.
According to wikipedia 1 hydra has 14.5 dps. Two marines will have 14 dps, only 0.5 dps less. With Stim, it'll be 21 dps, almost 50% more (stim effect).
And @Barca, really the build you mention is the only build that I can think of that relies on Hydra. It could very well turn out that in the future, that'll be the only reason to ever get a hydra. To do a 2 base hydra push. Hell, you know a unit is in bad shape when a P goes stargate phoenix to force hydras so they can counter with Collosus, I feel something is wrong.
On these new bigger maps that are coming out, the hydra's uselessness are going to be more pronounce. A P can probably warp-in 2-3 collosus the time it takes for hydras to cross the map T___T.
However the silver lining is that bigger maps will encourage nydus play, and we can perhaps see hydra 'strike force' or something lol.
In terms of a quick fix for the hydra, I'd personally go for a bit of a range increase rather than anything else, maybe 6 by default and 8 with the upgrade. I rather like the idea of hydras being slow, fragile damage dealers that need to be protected but feel they currently need to get far, far to close to their enemies to be able to fulfil that role properly, especially given zerg's need to go for large numbers of units, and the small range differential between the roach and the hydra.
In order for roach/hydra to "work properly" at the moment, it either requires a pretty small army size, or a ridiculously large open area. The former is just very un-zerg, and the latter strikes me as a horrible balance fix as it's clearly not possible on all maps, and even if it was it would just give zerg to much of an advantage via their other units. Making the hydra quicker would, in my opinion, reduce the amount of tactics and micro* required to use the hydra, and making it tougher just feels like a really boring, zero character way to solve a problem, whereas upping the range and keeping it slow and fragile gives the unit a distinct character whilst at the same time allowing roach/hydra armies to bring more firepower to bear against "death ball" type armies in a greater variety of situations than is currently possible.
* Make to hydras keep up with the roaches and it reduces the need for the zerg player to consider the two unit types separately, whilst also reducing the opposition's ability to take distinct action against the two unit types.
I agree with the above poster, but would take the additional step of reducing thermal lance range to 8, making a thermal lance colossus the same range as a grooved spine hydra.
Hydra damage is HUGE. Basically any buff would make them OP since they already counter such a huge amount of play (basically all non-splash units). People are upset because they feel like they never get hydras but this is the case because everybody has learned that if you go a strategy where hydras are a good counter you will get rolled. Basically this must be a low level zerg concern because I have heard a number of high level zerg speak pretty highly of hydras on their streams (in between all the qq of course).
On March 08 2011 17:51 Neivler wrote: The big problem with Hydras is that you cant micro them. That is a major problem with almost all of the zergs units. Either they dont need or work better with micro, or you just cant micro them like the hydras. If you get hit by a storm it is better to just sit there and take it than try to avoid it, since the hydras are so slow they wont get out of it anyway. I want some unit that I can micro, and not just a-move (or just move like the blings )
too much truth in this post. We need 100/100 speed upgrade, remove some creep speed bonus and it'll be good to go. Honestly all zerg units should have speed upgrades...
Not every unit HAS to be used in SC2. If Hydras don't end up having a very important role over time, they'll be like Scouts in BW. Rarely used. So what?
Even so, it's ridiculous to assert that they're a 'dying unit' at this time.
No toss is stupid enough to go no aoe versus zerg so hydra is a bit weak. Personally I think lowering hp to 70 or 75 and decrease dps slightly but make it tier 1 and cost like 75/50, give it a decent speed boost(like at speed of fast roaches). So it has the role of tier 1 pressure but allow toss to be able to defend with cannons if needed . Make roach tier 2.
I cannot be sure, but I feel if they just gave a speed upgrade to the Hydra in its current state it would be far too good against Protoss. Hydras absolutely demolish everything Protoss has except for the Tier 3 AOE.
I agree with Idra that they should switch the Roach and Hydra position in the tech tree which would conversely give Zealots more of a role in the match up early-med game. I mean you only really need those armoured units (Roaches) late game when AOE comes into play.
Just giving them a speed upgrade would just be too much IMHO.
Hydras are too damn slow and don't fit in well with the rest of the zerg army...
That's really the crux of the matter. Once there is AOE on the field you may as well suicide your hydras for all the good they'll do you. Impossible to micro because of their terrible speed compounded by their already fragile nature just makes them a bad mix in a traditionally mobile army.
Up the speed and sacrifice something...like a little DPS if you must...but the speed is the problem. It's ALWAYS been the problem.
As random I tried really hard to find a way hydras work but eventually gave up on them completely, So did my z opponents. Contrary to what is generally considered hydras do not own gateway units. They are slow and good ffs split them and they end up in an uneven battle which will be lost. I play a pure warpgate 2 base push pvz (with some obses or immortals sometimes) and I practically never lose when my opponent goes hydra. I can get some replays if needed.
Blizzard were afraid hydras will be the ultimate unit of sc1 where a mass of hydras was deadly and only could be stopped with other imbas of sc1 like mm, tanks, storm. Since those imbas were gone so should the hydras and they double nerfed it with speed and general dps*hp power. So it ended up as a weak and slow unit which is only used for anti air in some situations.
P.S. It's incredible how sc1 being such a compilation of imbalances became the most balanced rts ever.
I'll turn the chessboard around ! It's not that hydra needs a speed upgrade. It is WHY hydra does not have speed !
Thinking like that, it's because hydras were too good before, when they had 90 hps. The metagame was really different before, more fixed on T1 rush with protoss and mech play against zergs (when tanks were absolutely awesome).
Right now, we need to know : if hydras are still a glass cannon unit, they need speed, in order to support the main army. If they're not, they need to be changed in order to be able to exist by themselves.
The problem in my eyes is and has always been the Roach. They should have just bitten the bullet and gotten rid of the roach and made the hydra tier 1.5 with a few nerfs to its characteristics while being cheaper and 1 supply.
The lack of a damage soaking 'tank' unit must be solvable some other way that doesn't involve the roach.
On March 08 2011 19:22 Wolf wrote: Not every unit HAS to be used in SC2. If Hydras don't end up having a very important role over time, they'll be like Scouts in BW. Rarely used. So what?
The problem with this statement is that it's obvious that Z has the least options in terms of strategies and unit compositions in the game.
Zerg has the least amount of units, has very few "cool" units and upgrades. Half the upgrades are just for speed, great fun.
Now take in to the account that hydras are such a niche unit and the race feels very limited.
For what it's worth, I feel like hydras should have a *slight* gas reduction and increase their range a little so protoss actually has to move their colossus into a vulnerable position to kill the hydra.
Right now 3-4 colossus can sit in a safe position near the back of a protoss army and instantly melt the hydras.
That's not even exaggerating. People say banelings hard counter marines, but tbh, I think colossus counter hydras much harder. At least you can split your marines, stim and run, etc. You honestly cant do that shit with hydra as they have no speed.
On March 08 2011 17:01 Worm Shoes wrote: Hydras should be changed to an Armoured Unit to stop siege squish and colossi smash...
and maybe make the roach a light unit but increase the health and spawn with +X armour like in beta :D
Making them armored would make them take more dmg from tanks and not change them vs colos.
Are you stupid?
yes very,
But what i meant by that is that siege target roaches first in a battle so they can soak up the damage...and making hydra's armoured will give them a +1armour anyway which will effectively take less damage from a colossi no?
Hence the suggestion switch between light and armoured for roach and hydra
I personally agree. It is a dying unit, and it does need some changes.
Really, the unit itself should be cheaper. Don't get me wrong, the Hydra is a powerful unit, but the thing about it is that even though it hits hard it has a glass chin. The things just go down way to fast. Making them cheaper could make losing them not have such a massive impact because of the investment.
The only other thing I can see, if they don't do that, is making them both faster and a little bulkier. Even give them a speed upgrade. Lord knows everything else for Zerg fucking has it. If they were faster I could even see people using them.
I still think though that the lack of the Lurker is the big thing. If there were lurkers then Terrans and Protoss would have to be more honest with their scouting, detection, the Zerg would have a reasonably timed Siege unit instead of very late game, and the Hydra could at least become something better. Right now it's like a retard running uphill.
there were many threads about Hydras being too weak. What pisses me off the most is that the other 2 races' long range air+ground attack units are so good and versitle and microable and savable. Hydras hope to get in a good position to start attacking, and they die if they are getting focused down or are trying to retreat.
The only matchup where they are still quite good is ZvZ, however recently i ve experienced baneling drops which absolutely rape them, and mass roach only or with infestor support and abuse mobility of that.
Personally I think that too few Zerg actually get the burrow upgrade, which could save a few Hydras from dying with good micro, but which would force an opponent into spending resources to kill them. Sure the Hydras arent as tough as Roaches and dont have their burrowed movement or regenerative skills, but that makes burrow even more important to keep your investment alive.
The Hydra has awesome dps, but only very few Zerg ever bother with any drop play. Suuure the old "oh its so expensive to research" argument will be thrown at me, but Zerg has the fastest growing economy past the early game and resources should not matter that much. Its not like your opponents arent researching useful stuff. Drops are powerful and underused by Zerg players. Change that before whining about how useless your units are.
On March 08 2011 21:15 Geo.Rion wrote: there were many threads about Hydras being too weak. What pisses me off the most is that the other 2 races' long range air+ground attack units are so good and versitle and microable and savable. Hydras hope to get in a good position to start attacking, and they die if they are getting focused down or are trying to retreat.
The only matchup where they are still quite good is ZvZ, however recently i ve experienced baneling drops which absolutely rape them, and mass roach only or with infestor support and abuse mobility of that.
Quote for truth, only skill that hydras take is patients but damn they take alot of it
On March 08 2011 21:59 Rabiator wrote: Personally I think that too few Zerg actually get the burrow upgrade, which could save a few Hydras from dying with good micro, but which would force an opponent into spending resources to kill them. Sure the Hydras arent as tough as Roaches and dont have their burrowed movement or regenerative skills, but that makes burrow even more important to keep your investment alive.
The Hydra has awesome dps, but only very few Zerg ever bother with any drop play. Suuure the old "oh its so expensive to research" argument will be thrown at me, but Zerg has the fastest growing economy past the early game and resources should not matter that much. Its not like your opponents arent researching useful stuff. Drops are powerful and underused by Zerg players. Change that before whining about how useless your units are.
Play Zerg, research burrow, tell me how useful it is for your hydras...
I've played since the beta for about 1.5k games now. My winrate has been steadily increasing the less hydra's I used ( especially in ZvP, infact, my entire strategy involves how to NOT get hydra's at all but instead rely on sturdier units ).
They are just a really tricky unit. Too fragile and too expensive to put into a unit that has 80 hp, one more range than a roach, and most of all cannot easily retreat. Making hydra's in my opinion is only viable in ZvZ. But that is because they're the best ranged unit zerg has to offer ( hydra's wreck ultra's and air units ) not because they are so amazing cost wise.
So yeah, I do think the hydra is going to go extinct if there aren't any changes made to it. The thing is, would it matter if it wasn't used that much? I mean yes us zergs have less units to work with, but in the end comparing a roach to a hydra is like comparing a dragoon to a stalker, only slightly different in stats and basically ahve the same role.
With bigger maps and better control I think soon we may see this trend reverse. Though I am not exactly sure how colossi damage works if it affects the units in the front/back of the target or if is just the straight line damage. Either way though this is also greatly affected by IMO the worst mechanic in the game (creep spread). It is just so crappy that to make your units into the "swarm race" they are supposed to be you must hope that the enemy doesn't get detection and go for your creep tumors.
The hydra is pretty much the one reason why us protoss are building our deathballs in the first place. It sounds stupid but yeh if we go anything else then colossi +ht/voidray we lose any PvZ because of the hydra just shitting all over any gateway unit.
So lets throw something out there, less DPS but longer surviving? maybe alse give em +1 range on top of that, I think with these changes atleast PvZ would be a bit less hardcounter vs hardcounter
On March 08 2011 21:59 Rabiator wrote: Personally I think that too few Zerg actually get the burrow upgrade, which could save a few Hydras from dying with good micro, but which would force an opponent into spending resources to kill them. Sure the Hydras arent as tough as Roaches and dont have their burrowed movement or regenerative skills, but that makes burrow even more important to keep your investment alive.
The Hydra has awesome dps, but only very few Zerg ever bother with any drop play. Suuure the old "oh its so expensive to research" argument will be thrown at me, but Zerg has the fastest growing economy past the early game and resources should not matter that much. Its not like your opponents arent researching useful stuff. Drops are powerful and underused by Zerg players. Change that before whining about how useless your units are.
Play Zerg, research burrow, tell me how useful it is for your hydras...
Dont you think that it is better to burrow your Hydras and Drones instead of having them lifted off by Phoenixes? That way you can actually get a sufficient number of Hydras to take down the Phoenixes instead of losing them in twos and threes ...
I don't think the Hydra is underused or will be useless after 1.3 goes through. I don't see him dead, only misused by certain players.
In ZvZ the Hydra/Roach play is the safest way to play and will be in the future. When Fungal becomes a projectile, Mutas will be reinvented in ZvZ so Hydras will still have pretty much the same role.
In ZvT Hydras are rarely seen due to Siegetanks but a Lategame Army can consist of roach Hydra Infestor or Broodlord Hydra. Also Hydras are one option to deal with these pesky Banshee Marauder or Hellion Marauder playstyles.
In ZvP the Hydralisk is one of the most important units in my opinion. I'm not a fan of Hydrapushes but the hydra fills the role of dps perfectly. Everything except vast numbers of Collossi or Voidrays can be shut down with hydras and again lategame Broodlord/Hydra is prolly the best unitcomposition toi have.
On March 08 2011 21:59 Rabiator wrote: Personally I think that too few Zerg actually get the burrow upgrade, which could save a few Hydras from dying with good micro, but which would force an opponent into spending resources to kill them. Sure the Hydras arent as tough as Roaches and dont have their burrowed movement or regenerative skills, but that makes burrow even more important to keep your investment alive.
The Hydra has awesome dps, but only very few Zerg ever bother with any drop play. Suuure the old "oh its so expensive to research" argument will be thrown at me, but Zerg has the fastest growing economy past the early game and resources should not matter that much. Its not like your opponents arent researching useful stuff. Drops are powerful and underused by Zerg players. Change that before whining about how useless your units are.
Play Zerg, research burrow, tell me how useful it is for your hydras...
Dont you think that it is better to burrow your Hydras and Drones instead of having them lifted off by Phoenixes? That way you can actually get a sufficient number of Hydras to take down the Phoenixes instead of losing them in twos and threes ...
And what do you expect Hydras to do underground? Take a siesta and regen health while the rest of the army dies?
Burrowing drones of course is awesome against all forms of harass but you just don't have the gas to get burrow that fast. Gas is very important for a lot of lair tech upgrades like roach speed and hydra range.
mmmm hydra owns ZvP atm, so i guess we will not stop seeing the bane of every toss unit except of collossi zealot and templar.
And sorry to disagree with 1.3 roaches will be less used as there are more mutas, so more hydras and more banelings to conter them, because fungal won't hit banelings that well anymore.
BW was so muta heavy because hydras were slow, now they are damn fast on creep so perfect against muta play.
I think the reason why hydras are normal speed off creep is that otherwise a retreat would be impossible, and their damage is so huge, that they would simply rip an army to bits. Like stimmed bio just without the stim.
Speed lings make the early attack on a zerg already risky as if he overpowers you no unit will return home. If hydras were as fast off creep any attack on a zerg would mean if you lose the fight no chance to retreat would be there.
So Hydra is totally fine and such an awesome unit, and its used in pro zvp more and more regularly now to deal with the toss, that just goes mass blink stalker against the mass roach corrupter cloud that was build to deal with the colossi and if the zerg doesn't react to this he is doomed.
On March 08 2011 22:51 FeyFey wrote: mmmm hydra owns ZvP atm, so i guess we will not stop seeing the bane of every toss unit except of collossi zealot and templar.
And sorry to disagree with 1.3 roaches will be less used as there are less mutas, so more hydras and more banelings to conter them, because fungal won't hit banelings that well anymore.
BW was so muta heavy because hydras were slow, now they are damn fast on creep so perfect against muta play.
I think the reason why hydras are normal speed off creep is that otherwise a retreat would be impossible, and their damage is so huge, that they would simply rip an army to bits. Like stimmed bio just without the stim.
Speed lings make the early attack on a zerg already risky as if he overpowers you no unit will return home. If hydras were as fast off creep any attack on a zerg would mean if you lose the fight no chance to retreat would be there.
So Hydra is totally fine and such an awesome unit, and its used in pro zvp more and more regularly now to deal with the toss, that just goes mass blink stalker against the mass roach corrupter cloud that was build to deal with the colossi and if the zerg doesn't react to this he is doomed.
Why would there be less Roaches and less Mutas in 1.3 ZvZ?
On March 08 2011 21:59 Rabiator wrote: Personally I think that too few Zerg actually get the burrow upgrade, which could save a few Hydras from dying with good micro, but which would force an opponent into spending resources to kill them. Sure the Hydras arent as tough as Roaches and dont have their burrowed movement or regenerative skills, but that makes burrow even more important to keep your investment alive.
The Hydra has awesome dps, but only very few Zerg ever bother with any drop play. Suuure the old "oh its so expensive to research" argument will be thrown at me, but Zerg has the fastest growing economy past the early game and resources should not matter that much. Its not like your opponents arent researching useful stuff. Drops are powerful and underused by Zerg players. Change that before whining about how useless your units are.
Play Zerg, research burrow, tell me how useful it is for your hydras...
Dont you think that it is better to burrow your Hydras and Drones instead of having them lifted off by Phoenixes? That way you can actually get a sufficient number of Hydras to take down the Phoenixes instead of losing them in twos and threes ...
And what do you expect Hydras to do underground? Take a siesta and regen health while the rest of the army dies?
Burrowing drones of course is awesome against all forms of harass but you just don't have the gas to get burrow that fast. Gas is very important for a lot of lair tech upgrades like roach speed and hydra range.
I guess what he means is that you can do some pretty nice burrow-micro. You only need to save 1 hydra to be nearly cost-effecient. You dont need to burrow all of your hydras, just burrow one of them and it wont die unless your enemy has detection. I dont agree with you not having the gas. Most good zerg players go roaches with burrow immediately after lair vs protoss to defend against 5-gate/6-gate attacks.
On March 08 2011 17:01 Worm Shoes wrote: Hydras should be changed to an Armoured Unit to stop siege squish and colossi smash...
and maybe make the roach a light unit but increase the health and spawn with +X armour like in beta :D
Making them armored would make them take more dmg from tanks and not change them vs colos.
Are you stupid?
yes very,
But what i meant by that is that siege target roaches first in a battle so they can soak up the damage...and making hydra's armoured will give them a +1armour anyway which will effectively take less damage from a colossi no?
Hence the suggestion switch between light and armoured for roach and hydra
Umm you can target the hydras Who just lets their Tanks fire at what ever crap.
On March 08 2011 22:39 Turbo.Tactics wrote: I don't think the Hydra is underused or will be useless after 1.3 goes through. I don't see him dead, only misused by certain players.
In ZvZ the Hydra/Roach play is the safest way to play and will be in the future. When Fungal becomes a projectile, Mutas will be reinvented in ZvZ so Hydras will still have pretty much the same role.
In ZvT Hydras are rarely seen due to Siegetanks but a Lategame Army can consist of roach Hydra Infestor or Broodlord Hydra. Also Hydras are one option to deal with these pesky Banshee Marauder or Hellion Marauder playstyles.
In ZvP the Hydralisk is one of the most important units in my opinion. I'm not a fan of Hydrapushes but the hydra fills the role of dps perfectly. Everything except vast numbers of Collossi or Voidrays can be shut down with hydras and again lategame Broodlord/Hydra is prolly the best unitcomposition toi have.
Hydras like roaches take 3 shots to die from Siege. The issue is not how much they take to die but whether they can reach the Tanks and how cost effectivly versus Terran.
On March 08 2011 22:37 Rabiator wrote: Dont you think that it is better to burrow your Hydras and Drones instead of having them lifted off by Phoenixes? That way you can actually get a sufficient number of Hydras to take down the Phoenixes instead of losing them in twos and threes ...
Oooh, that's a really nice trick. I'm always very hesitant to make hydras against phoenixes because until you outnumber the phoenixes 2-1, they just get picked up and slaughtered. Keeping them burrowed until you have enough is just brilliant.
With regards to the topic I do feel that the hydra needs some attention. The core problem, as stated by the OP, is that it is not filling any role, or that its role may not yet be defined. Very many people use it in a roach/hydra ball, but it doesn't have enough speed to keep up with the roaches, and it doesn't have enough speed to make flanks or retreat or storm dodging or anything really. What if you consider the hydra a on-creep only unit? I believe I've heard some pros (can't remember which one) saying something along these lines during the beta. What you can do is try and make an overlord creep highway whenever you need to attack the front, or even better, give them some speed boosting by overlords or nydus worms. Note that both overlord drops and nydus worms generate creep in its immediate vicinity making it possible to do storm-dodging or otherwise micro your hydras. If you throw up a nydus worm just as you start your attack (in the case that you're doing a frontal bust), then you also get both creep and an escape route for your hydras. I also think that hydras perform very well in small skirmishes, but terrible in large 200/200 clashes, mainly because of the amount of splash damage that often is the case in large battles.
In short, I believe that one should look for other ways of using the hydra than the traditional roach/hydra ball. If they are lacking speed, then give them speed by overlords, nydus worms and/or creep. Once people start using nydus worms more often, perhaps the hydra will finally have found its role.
Another thing to note is that maps are getting bigger, and so creep will take more time to get to the central battlefield/enemy's base. It makes the hydra even more a defensive unit than an offensive one. As previously stated, the slow movement speed and low hp make the hydra's role too much restricted.
On March 08 2011 21:59 Rabiator wrote: Personally I think that too few Zerg actually get the burrow upgrade, which could save a few Hydras from dying with good micro, but which would force an opponent into spending resources to kill them. Sure the Hydras arent as tough as Roaches and dont have their burrowed movement or regenerative skills, but that makes burrow even more important to keep your investment alive.
The Hydra has awesome dps, but only very few Zerg ever bother with any drop play. Suuure the old "oh its so expensive to research" argument will be thrown at me, but Zerg has the fastest growing economy past the early game and resources should not matter that much. Its not like your opponents arent researching useful stuff. Drops are powerful and underused by Zerg players. Change that before whining about how useless your units are.
Play Zerg, research burrow, tell me how useful it is for your hydras...
Dont you think that it is better to burrow your Hydras and Drones instead of having them lifted off by Phoenixes? That way you can actually get a sufficient number of Hydras to take down the Phoenixes instead of losing them in twos and threes ...
And what do you expect Hydras to do underground? Take a siesta and regen health while the rest of the army dies?
Burrowing drones of course is awesome against all forms of harass but you just don't have the gas to get burrow that fast. Gas is very important for a lot of lair tech upgrades like roach speed and hydra range.
I guess what he means is that you can do some pretty nice burrow-micro. You only need to save 1 hydra to be nearly cost-effecient. You dont need to burrow all of your hydras, just burrow one of them and it wont die unless your enemy has detection. I dont agree with you not having the gas. Most good zerg players go roaches with burrow immediately after lair vs protoss to defend against 5-gate/6-gate attacks.
There is a significant delay when unburrowing hydras and ultralisks. It is significant enough to make burrow-surprise amazingly ineffective with hydras. It's just too much lost DPS. Burrow-micro might save the hydralisks, but it doesn't do much else. And when you're dealing with harassment, you actually want to like... do something.
Besides, Queens are fantastic AA and also work well with burrow and cost no gas or larva.
On March 08 2011 22:39 Turbo.Tactics wrote: I don't think the Hydra is underused or will be useless after 1.3 goes through. I don't see him dead, only misused by certain players.
In ZvZ the Hydra/Roach play is the safest way to play and will be in the future. When Fungal becomes a projectile, Mutas will be reinvented in ZvZ so Hydras will still have pretty much the same role.
In ZvT Hydras are rarely seen due to Siegetanks but a Lategame Army can consist of roach Hydra Infestor or Broodlord Hydra. Also Hydras are one option to deal with these pesky Banshee Marauder or Hellion Marauder playstyles.
In ZvP the Hydralisk is one of the most important units in my opinion. I'm not a fan of Hydrapushes but the hydra fills the role of dps perfectly. Everything except vast numbers of Collossi or Voidrays can be shut down with hydras and again lategame Broodlord/Hydra is prolly the best unitcomposition toi have.
Such a lack of understanding...
Hydras already take a backseat to infestors in ZvZ in CURRENT play, when infestors do 30% more damage to roaches, hydras will be even further behind.
Hydras are utterly useless in ZvT not just because of siege tanks, but due to the fact that you don't really gain anything from massing them. They lose to Marines, Hellions, and Thors while breaking even with Banshees and Marauders. Oddly enough, the only one of those units I mentioned that hydras are FASTER than is the Thor...
as far as ZvP, Hydras are almost usable. You can get away with a hydra/ling push early game and you can reinforce your army with hydras after you've cleared all the colossi from the death-ball if you're in the right situation, but the fact still remains that going hydra at all is a huge risk and the stars need to align perfectly or you just cost yourself the game, going roach is ALWAYS safer, the one exception to this being phoenix play, where hydras aren't necessarily good, but its our only option.
The worst part about all of this is non-Zerg players think its ok that the hydralisk is garbage. Try making the Marine or Stalker garbage and see where T and P end up, they'd probably be right around where Z is right now...
State of hydras make me say "Is there even such a unit in SC2? I've never seen 'em since BW.". Hydras were equally fragile in BW but at least their cost was better and they were equally mobile off creep, which made them viable there. Other than that, they were still weak against zealots-templars-archons-marine&medic-firebats-tanks-all that good jazz. But, they were good against protoss ranged units and they formed lurkers. That was what made them viable in zvp.
On March 08 2011 22:39 Turbo.Tactics wrote: I don't think the Hydra is underused or will be useless after 1.3 goes through. I don't see him dead, only misused by certain players.
In ZvZ the Hydra/Roach play is the safest way to play and will be in the future. When Fungal becomes a projectile, Mutas will be reinvented in ZvZ so Hydras will still have pretty much the same role.
In ZvT Hydras are rarely seen due to Siegetanks but a Lategame Army can consist of roach Hydra Infestor or Broodlord Hydra. Also Hydras are one option to deal with these pesky Banshee Marauder or Hellion Marauder playstyles.
In ZvP the Hydralisk is one of the most important units in my opinion. I'm not a fan of Hydrapushes but the hydra fills the role of dps perfectly. Everything except vast numbers of Collossi or Voidrays can be shut down with hydras and again lategame Broodlord/Hydra is prolly the best unitcomposition toi have.
Such a lack of understanding...
Hydras already take a backseat to infestors in ZvZ in CURRENT play, when infestors do 30% more damage to roaches, hydras will be even further behind.
Hydras are utterly useless in ZvT not just because of siege tanks, but due to the fact that you don't really gain anything from massing them. They lose to Marines, Hellions, and Thors while breaking even with Banshees and Marauders. Oddly enough, the only one of those units I mentioned that hydras are FASTER than is the Thor...
as far as ZvP, Hydras are almost usable. You can get away with a hydra/ling push early game and you can reinforce your army with hydras after you've cleared all the colossi from the death-ball if you're in the right situation, but the fact still remains that going hydra at all is a huge risk and the stars need to align perfectly or you just cost yourself the game, going roach is ALWAYS safer, the one exception to this being phoenix play, where hydras aren't necessarily good, but its our only option.
The worst part about all of this is non-Zerg players think its ok that the hydralisk is garbage. Try making the Marine or Stalker garbage and see where T and P end up, they'd probably be right around where Z is right now...
I can only argue regarding my own observations. Calling it lack of insight might be an egoboost for you but instead of degrading my post, try to cut the crap and stop posting as if every word out of your mouth/keyboard is a dogma.
Every ZvZ I played vs Roach Infestor with Roach/Hydra I won decidingly. Ideally you want 'em both anyways... As for 1.3 I already explained that my theory is that Mutaplays will be more viable with fungal beeing a missle. Therefore Hydralisk can become more viable as dps and defense unit against the more popular Mutaplays. One can even argue that pure Hydra or Hydra Infestor may become the best combo because they take the same dmg from fungal (in shorter time though) and can deal with pure roach or roach/infestor playstyles. That is what we call theorycrafting not lack of insight.
Hydras are not useless in ZvTas far as I am concerned. Again I can only take my own observations into account. Only Problem is that Ling/bling/Muta and Ling Infestor into Ultra are so popular that they overshadow the use of hydras. Against Thor/Banshee playstyles Hydra/infestor or Roach/Hydra is your best option imo.
ZvP I don't see going Hydras as a risk but an opportunity for huge pressure as well as a nice defense. You will have to transition into Corrupters but as long as no Collossi are on the field, Hydras are King. It's a reactive play not a risky alllin as long as you don't play it that way. Also the Hydralisk will benefit from the amulet removal since psystorm is prolly the most effective spell against hydras.
I'm not suggesting that this would fix the problem entirely but it might be a start. What if Hydras did bonus damage to bio? I haven't done the math but I'm assuming that two marines with stim > one hydra. Considering that hydras are tier two units and cost an extra 50 gas this doesn't seem right. With a bonus against bio hydras would have an even higher dps against certain units but they would still have the same weaknesses that they already have, meaning that they would be more viable in certain situations and more important to counter. They would definitely be more viable in ZvZ all round and against terran with marine marauders. Though PvZ would not be affected too much, but in PvZ in order to beat hydras you really do need colossi or high templar in order to beat hydras effectively (or just a generally larger army with chargelots).
So yeah let me know what you think.
Also, sorry if anyone has already suggested this as I have not ready through all 15 pages this is just the first possibility that came to mind.
On March 08 2011 22:39 Turbo.Tactics wrote: I don't think the Hydra is underused or will be useless after 1.3 goes through. I don't see him dead, only misused by certain players.
In ZvZ the Hydra/Roach play is the safest way to play and will be in the future. When Fungal becomes a projectile, Mutas will be reinvented in ZvZ so Hydras will still have pretty much the same role.
In ZvT Hydras are rarely seen due to Siegetanks but a Lategame Army can consist of roach Hydra Infestor or Broodlord Hydra. Also Hydras are one option to deal with these pesky Banshee Marauder or Hellion Marauder playstyles.
In ZvP the Hydralisk is one of the most important units in my opinion. I'm not a fan of Hydrapushes but the hydra fills the role of dps perfectly. Everything except vast numbers of Collossi or Voidrays can be shut down with hydras and again lategame Broodlord/Hydra is prolly the best unitcomposition toi have.
Such a lack of understanding...
Hydras already take a backseat to infestors in ZvZ in CURRENT play, when infestors do 30% more damage to roaches, hydras will be even further behind.
Hydras are utterly useless in ZvT not just because of siege tanks, but due to the fact that you don't really gain anything from massing them. They lose to Marines, Hellions, and Thors while breaking even with Banshees and Marauders. Oddly enough, the only one of those units I mentioned that hydras are FASTER than is the Thor...
as far as ZvP, Hydras are almost usable. You can get away with a hydra/ling push early game and you can reinforce your army with hydras after you've cleared all the colossi from the death-ball if you're in the right situation, but the fact still remains that going hydra at all is a huge risk and the stars need to align perfectly or you just cost yourself the game, going roach is ALWAYS safer, the one exception to this being phoenix play, where hydras aren't necessarily good, but its our only option.
The worst part about all of this is non-Zerg players think its ok that the hydralisk is garbage. Try making the Marine or Stalker garbage and see where T and P end up, they'd probably be right around where Z is right now...
You will have to transition into Corrupters but as long as no Collossi are on the field, Hydras are King.
King? Man they are just decent and nothing more. I think you didn't see really good forcefield or phoenix usage.
Btw if toss is aiming for collosi, then collosi will be on the field few minutes after hydra is on the field.
The hydra definatly needs a change. It doesn't have to be better, but it just needs a change.
Currently the only place where we see hydra's is ZvZ towards the mid/lategame, and then in ZvP against very certain builds, but even then most people probably feel like if they go hydra in ZvP they are screwed in the long term because that protoss most likely wanted to force you to go hydra for his switch to colossi/HT.
And zerg already has the least amount of units and unit compositions it can go for, the hydra just not being usable is another thing on top of that.
The hydra also isn't like some random unit they added for zerg in sc2, together with the zergling (and the muta to a certain extent) it's one of those very iconic units for zerg.
Problems: - Very slow off creep, and can't keep up with the rest of your units, if you ever want to be agressive with them you need a very long creep highway wich is easily countered at higher levels, then keep in mind that in general maps are getting better, and people are getting better at sniping creep tumors all over the place, and in the end the hydra is almost purely defensive
-Low HP to counteract it's high dmg, but the dmg has it's problems, the missile animation being inferior, the range not being able to actually reach the splash units that counter it, especially not with roaches tanking
-High cost and 2 food
-Lair-tech, wich means by the time you can start massing up some hydra's the other person already is getting the counters out
There are many solutions to it, from changing it's place in the tech-tree, to altering it's speed/upgrades, and changing it's stats and cost, all together to give it a new role and spot in the techtree where it can maybe become a staple unit, or atleast something better then it's current state.
Anyway, I don't expect them to change the hydra untill HoTs, since this would be a really big change to make them "viable" again as part of a army composition troughout the game
And they also have to make sure that the hydra doesnt become a roach with -1 armor and longer range.
a maxed hydra army in bw consisted of like 130 hydras, in sc2 is only about 35-40.. considering z gets about 70-100 drones in sc2 thats the real difference that makes hydras so useless now, if u recall hydras were good vrs protoss gateway units in bw but also weak vrs storm, the only thing that made them useable was the massive number and mutas to snipe templars t.t
On March 09 2011 00:26 sLiMpoweR wrote: a maxed hydra army in bw consisted of like 130 hydras, in sc2 is only about 35-40.. considering z gets about 70-100 drones in sc2 thats the real difference that makes hydras so useless now, if u recall hydras were good vrs protoss gateway units in bw but also weak vrs storm, the only thing that made them useable was the massive number and mutas to snipe templars t.t
130 Hydras can be chewed up and spit out just easily as 35-40 when there are Colossi on the field.
On March 08 2011 22:37 Rabiator wrote: Dont you think that it is better to burrow your Hydras and Drones instead of having them lifted off by Phoenixes? That way you can actually get a sufficient number of Hydras to take down the Phoenixes instead of losing them in twos and threes ...
Oooh, that's a really nice trick. I'm always very hesitant to make hydras against phoenixes because until you outnumber the phoenixes 2-1, they just get picked up and slaughtered. Keeping them burrowed until you have enough is just brilliant.
The same trick applies to your Queens if you know you dont have enough of them to kill the Phoenixes ... just lose one Queen at a hatchery and burrow the other one. Drones are easier to replace than Queens and Phoenixes eventually run out of energy. Just unburrow the Queen for Spawn Larva and then reburrow. In the case of Banshee harrass burrow can be used to force a scan and slow down the Terran economy ...
On March 09 2011 00:26 sLiMpoweR wrote: a maxed hydra army in bw consisted of like 130 hydras, in sc2 is only about 35-40.. considering z gets about 70-100 drones in sc2 thats the real difference that makes hydras so useless now, if u recall hydras were good vrs protoss gateway units in bw but also weak vrs storm, the only thing that made them useable was the massive number and mutas to snipe templars t.t
thats the point - they were cheap, massable and weak. that is zerg in a nutshell. the new hydra does not fit that description at all, it seems more like a protoss unit (with terran hp)
If they would cost 125 mins and 25 gaz I'd make them. If they had a speed upgrade I'd make them.
Right now they're a situational unit.
The heavy gaz investment they require is too much. At 25 gaz, I wouldn't care if they got demolished by Colossi. If they had more speed and could be saved from a losing battle to die another day, they would be fine. I wouldn't have to cross my fingers every time they venture off creep.
On March 09 2011 00:26 sLiMpoweR wrote: a maxed hydra army in bw consisted of like 130 hydras, in sc2 is only about 35-40.. considering z gets about 70-100 drones in sc2 thats the real difference that makes hydras so useless now, if u recall hydras were good vrs protoss gateway units in bw but also weak vrs storm, the only thing that made them useable was the massive number and mutas to snipe templars t.t
130 Hydras can be chewed up and spit out just easily as 35-40 when there are Colossi on the field.
thats just not true. with 130 hydras u can easily hit from 3 or even 4 sides makin the colossus much less effective.
Aside from that, Hydras just feel like they do not belong to the Zerg army. I love my roach hydra but its not the final solution against toss. Always playing roach hydra corruptor is just too obvious because there is simply no other viable option against stalker collosus. Always getting the corruptor count right is also a tedious thing.
If you watched Moon's play vs Squirtle and Ace in IEM, he crushed most 5/6 gate timing pushes with just ling/hydra in a lot of the games, and followed it up with hydra drops and timing attacks as well. IMO a small move speed buff for hydras off creep should be sufficient to allow zergs to deal damage in the mid game and fall back safely without taking much damage. This will also allow zergs to have better map control and harass toss expos without fearing of losing too much.
Its a tricky situation though, if collosus is nerfed to allow more Hydra play in PvZ, that nerf along with the upcoming HT change will make PvT totally unplayable against mass bio/viking style.
On March 09 2011 00:08 Icx wrote: The hydra definatly needs a change. It doesn't have to be better, but it just needs a change.
Currently the only place where we see hydra's is ZvZ towards the mid/lategame, and then in ZvP against very certain builds, but even then most people probably feel like if they go hydra in ZvP they are screwed in the long term because that protoss most likely wanted to force you to go hydra for his switch to colossi/HT.
And zerg already has the least amount of units and unit compositions it can go for, the hydra just not being usable is another thing on top of that.
The hydra also isn't like some random unit they added for zerg in sc2, together with the zergling (and the muta to a certain extent) it's one of those very iconic units for zerg.
Problems: - Very slow off creep, and can't keep up with the rest of your units, if you ever want to be agressive with them you need a very long creep highway wich is easily countered at higher levels, then keep in mind that in general maps are getting better, and people are getting better at sniping creep tumors all over the place, and in the end the hydra is almost purely defensive
-Low HP to counteract it's high dmg, but the dmg has it's problems, the missile animation being inferior, the range not being able to actually reach the splash units that counter it, especially not with roaches tanking
-High cost and 2 food
-Lair-tech, wich means by the time you can start massing up some hydra's the other person already is getting the counters out
There are many solutions to it, from changing it's place in the tech-tree, to altering it's speed/upgrades, and changing it's stats and cost, all together to give it a new role and spot in the techtree where it can maybe become a staple unit, or atleast something better then it's current state.
Anyway, I don't expect them to change the hydra untill HoTs, since this would be a really big change to make them "viable" again as part of a army composition troughout the game
And they also have to make sure that the hydra doesnt become a roach with -1 armor and longer range.
My thoughts exactly. The hydra isn't just fragile. It isn't just slow. It isn't just expensive. It's ALL of these things, and the only positive is dps. I really think a speed upgrade is the best bet - keeping a hydra push from being too strong early but giving your hydras some semblance of use after tanks/colos are out.
Would stalkers be effective if they lost blink, lost half their hp, and became slow in exchange for some extra damage? Hell, do any one of those things and I bet the stalker becomes "niche" or worse in the eyes of most. Would we ever see them, aside from desperation anti-air? That's where the hydra is now.
thats just not true. with 130 hydras u can easily hit from 3 or even 4 sides makin the colossus much less effective.
Yeah, in La La Land where sentries don't exist and Nydus worms are free.
Yeah totally hitting from 4 sides is awesome in SC2 *sarcasm off*. Seems like somebody totally forgot how slow hydras are...and hitting from 4 sides is a not possible on most maps, not even with godly creep spread... and if it s possible then only in one spot on the map. Good luck timing out your hydras.
On March 09 2011 00:46 derpzzz wrote: theres a problem with colossus not with hydra
Maybe if you could explain your thoughts people wouldn't think of you as a troll... Maybe, and just maybe there is something wrong with the collosus. But that doesn't lessen the fact that hydras are terrible, legen-wait for it-dary terrible.
On March 09 2011 00:26 sLiMpoweR wrote: a maxed hydra army in bw consisted of like 130 hydras, in sc2 is only about 35-40.. considering z gets about 70-100 drones in sc2 thats the real difference that makes hydras so useless now, if u recall hydras were good vrs protoss gateway units in bw but also weak vrs storm, the only thing that made them useable was the massive number and mutas to snipe templars t.t
thats the point - they were cheap, massable and weak. that is zerg in a nutshell. the new hydra does not fit that description at all, it seems more like a protoss unit (with terran hp)
The most important aspect is that they were microable. In SC2 microing hydras is a vaste of time, unless you are on creep.
On March 09 2011 00:46 derpzzz wrote: theres a problem with colossus not with hydra
Hmmm ... I would say that problem is "Colossi stack too well" rather than anything else.
Hydras dont stack that well because Forcefields can push them back outside of their range and if there is a bunch of Roaches in front of them they get pushed back even further. The Roach range indeed "nerfed" Hydras, not because they are needed less but rather because Roaches start fighting their opponents at a longer range and this reduces the room which Hydras have to maneuver into range. At range 3 the Roaches would leave more room behind them and this would make a "1a-move" more successful.
Coloassi on the other hand outrange all tier 1 units by far and the Forcefields can hold enemy units far back to make them immune to damage. At the same time all of the Colossi can shoot at the same target, which is not possible for "medium ranged" units like Hydras.
They may be a bit weak but they serve their purpose. Just like I can't go pure mech anymore u can't mass hydra i sc2. It's because it's not the same game. Hydras are still very strong vs air as well as gateway armies. They do die a bit fast but hey they have insane freaking dps.
All in all i don't care if they get buffed but if they'd get too much of a buff they'd be insanely op as their dps is really good. nuff said
Not sure anyone can realistically suggest swapping Roach and Hydras in the tech tree without destroying ZvP. Hydras nearly break the protoss matchup as it is. The literally destroy everything P has except collusus and to a lesser extent high templar (which btw is getting nerfed).
Honestly in my opinion it's not their speed and it's not really anything else in particular. Here's my main problems with hydras....
1. They're rarely cost efficient over other units, and instead usually are for population efficiency (ZvZ especially) 2. They're the only high DPS unit that costs gas and doesn't have a gimmick like long range or cloak. Colossi and Tanks are the 'counterpart' to hydras in terms of being population efficient gas heavy units with high DPS and both of them feature long range to increase their efficiency. 3. Hydra's have a fast attack speed with lower damage and a projectile. A lot of their DPS goes to waste to armor or overkill. 4. They have the lowest hp/population ratio in the game and I think they also have the lowest hp/gas ratio in the game. Colossi and tanks both feature quite a lot of hp for their population cost. 5. Their in combat speed off creep means they can't reposition well. (I don't mind them not being able to cross the map fast, but this hurts their viability).
Anyways the way this all comes together is the hydra is supposed to be for population efficiency, but by time that matters your opponent will have splash units that can exploit the hydra's shorter range and low hp/population.
Still I do find Hydras useful, but you need to set them up. Constant aggression in ZvP can keep a Protoss' colossi/templar count low opening you up for the possibility of using hydralisks. This is especially true when combined with drop play. Hydras make a very very good drop force as 1 overlord can carry quite a large # of hydras and the hydras are very efficient in combat population wise so your main army isn't that much weaker. Beyond warp-in HTs or splitting their army it's really difficult for a Protoss player to stop such drops.
The amusing thing is that infestors are almost as good per gas at adding dps to your army. Just 4 ITs put out .248 dps/gas while each hydra is 0.286. Obviously ITs expire, take time to hatch, are slow, and can be avoided, but it's still amusing to me especially since 4 ITs have 360hp compared to 80 of the hydra.
On March 09 2011 01:00 simme123 wrote: They may be a bit weak but they serve their purpose. Just like I can't go pure mech anymore u can't mass hydra i sc2. It's because it's not the same game. Hydras are still very strong vs air as well as gateway armies. They do die a bit fast but hey they have insane freaking dps.
All in all i don't care if they get buffed but if they'd get too much of a buff they'd be insanely op as their dps is really good. nuff said
The hydra DPS is greatly exaggerated. Sure, they might hit air, but so do marines, and for the mineral cost of one hydralisk, you can field two marines, and together, those two marines deal more DPS than one hydralisk. Two marines also have more HP than a hydralisk. They also move quicker. They also cost the same supply.
To use a protoss example; while stalkers may have five less DPS, they move quicker, have double the HP of a hydralisk, they start with 1 armor, and they don't have to spend 150/150+80 seconds to get 6 range. Did I mention that the WG CD is quicker for a stalker than it is for a hydra hatching?
I doubt speeding a hydra up would make it OP. I don't know if it'd fix the hydra, but it certainly would be better than it's current form.
IdrA's solution is perfect IMO. Make hydras tier 1, cheaper, worse and make roaches tier 2, more expensive, better (remember 2 base armor? How interesting would roach be at tier 2)
On March 09 2011 01:17 dark fury wrote: 1. Nydus Worm 2. Overlord Drops
Who said immobility was a problem?
It's not about getting them across map. It's about getting them out of the way of things that kill them once they're there.
Plus having to use nydus/overlords limits your options in the mid/early game to punish greedy economic plays. If it's something like x-metal and I'm on hydras it's really tough for me to move out and deny a greedy expansion before it goes up.
I actually see a role for hydras in ZvZ going forward, because they will be taking less damage from infestors and always be in range of roaches even with fungals I can see the meta game shifting to squeezing out as many hydras as possible while still keeping a buffer wall of roaches to soak up fungals and damage. What do y'all think?
On March 09 2011 01:17 dark fury wrote: 1. Nydus Worm 2. Overlord Drops
Who said immobility was a problem?
It's not about getting them across map. It's about getting them out of the way of things that kill them once they're there.
Plus having to use nydus/overlords limits your options in the mid/early game to punish greedy economic plays. If it's something like x-metal and I'm on hydras it's really tough for me to move out and deny a greedy expansion before it goes up.
funny, i thought a hydra/ling drop in the main was the best avaible way to punish a greedy player
On March 08 2011 09:04 TyrantPotato wrote: well with all balance aside. and just looking at it from a spectators point of view.
its boring. doesnt fit zerg. i mean honestly how does slow glass cannon dps fit in with a swarming bee hive race??? and well, yeah it just doesnt fit the game.
the only reason id ever use it is if i didnt have enough queens and needed some quick AA.
then just ignore them the rest of the game. because well yeah....they just dont fit.
I never thought I'd see the where people are saying the the hydralisk doesn't fit the zerg.
On March 09 2011 01:23 Jampackedeon wrote: I actually see a role for hydras in ZvZ going forward, because they will be taking less damage from infestors and always be in range of roaches even with fungals I can see the meta game shifting to squeezing out as many hydras as possible while still keeping a buffer wall of roaches to soak up fungals and damage. What do y'all think?
Some maps hydras seem like the way to go. A map like Scrap station for example where a roach/hydra player can hold chokes to give his roach/hydra/infestor army superiority over pure roach/infestor. On other maps there's less defender's advantage and more room to move around. In those cases the roach/infestor player can apply lots of pressure and trade armies constantly. Since hydras, until you're close to the pop cap, are less resource efficient it will eventually strain and break the hydra/roach/infestor (or just hydra/roach) player.
Any ZvZ that stalls out or gets going into big armies close to the pop cap will probably see some hydras come out though.
On March 09 2011 01:17 dark fury wrote: 1. Nydus Worm 2. Overlord Drops
Who said immobility was a problem?
It's not about getting them across map. It's about getting them out of the way of things that kill them once they're there.
Plus having to use nydus/overlords limits your options in the mid/early game to punish greedy economic plays. If it's something like x-metal and I'm on hydras it's really tough for me to move out and deny a greedy expansion before it goes up.
funny, i thought a hydra/ling drop in the main was the best avaible way to punish a greedy player
People explain why hydra sucks and you say "make nydus" or "make drop". What this have to do with hydra itself man?
On March 09 2011 01:14 goiflin wrote: Two marines also have more HP than a hydralisk. They also move quicker. They also cost the same supply.
Unless the information in the wiki is incorrect, you are wrong.
Marine movement speed without stim is the same as hydra off-creep.
Marines in the battle are always stimmed. Now imagine microing unstimmed marines vs rolling banelings on creep? That's how slow hydra is - impossible to micro or retreat.
On March 09 2011 01:17 dark fury wrote: 1. Nydus Worm 2. Overlord Drops
Who said immobility was a problem?
It's not about getting them across map. It's about getting them out of the way of things that kill them once they're there.
Plus having to use nydus/overlords limits your options in the mid/early game to punish greedy economic plays. If it's something like x-metal and I'm on hydras it's really tough for me to move out and deny a greedy expansion before it goes up.
funny, i thought a hydra/ling drop in the main was the best avaible way to punish a greedy player
People explain why hydra sucks and you say "make nydus" or "make drop". What this have to do with hydra itself man?
Or you just trolling?
Hydras dont suck. I wanna see you play protoss and deal with a hydra/ling drop before you have colossus up (you can do that if you time it right)
On March 09 2011 01:17 dark fury wrote: 1. Nydus Worm 2. Overlord Drops
Who said immobility was a problem?
It's not about getting them across map. It's about getting them out of the way of things that kill them once they're there.
Plus having to use nydus/overlords limits your options in the mid/early game to punish greedy economic plays. If it's something like x-metal and I'm on hydras it's really tough for me to move out and deny a greedy expansion before it goes up.
funny, i thought a hydra/ling drop in the main was the best avaible way to punish a greedy player
If you gear up for it from the start it's a way to bust a player who does something greedy at the start, but that's not really what I meant and should have been more clear.
If my Protoss opponent grabs an early 3rd base off 3 gate-expand it's hard to punish that with drop. Either I invest in drop early before he plays greedy and risk being weaker to some timing pushes or early colossi or I don't have drop on hand to respond to his play. If I move out with my hydralisks cross map then I risk a counter attack or him having appropriate defenses up in time especially since hydras off creep are really vulnerable to force field splits.
On March 09 2011 01:17 dark fury wrote: 1. Nydus Worm 2. Overlord Drops
Who said immobility was a problem?
It's not about getting them across map. It's about getting them out of the way of things that kill them once they're there.
Plus having to use nydus/overlords limits your options in the mid/early game to punish greedy economic plays. If it's something like x-metal and I'm on hydras it's really tough for me to move out and deny a greedy expansion before it goes up.
funny, i thought a hydra/ling drop in the main was the best avaible way to punish a greedy player
If you gear up for it from the start it's a way to bust a player who does something greedy at the start, but that's not really what I meant and should have been more clear.
If my Protoss opponent grabs an early 3rd base off 3 gate-expand it's hard to punish that with drop. Either I invest in drop early before he plays greedy and risk being weaker to some timing pushes or early colossi or I don't have drop on hand to respond to his play. If I move out with my hydralisks cross map then I risk a counter attack or him having appropriate defenses up in time especially since hydras off creep are really vulnerable to force field splits.
drop hydras in the main, attack then 3rd base with lings. guaranteed damage
On March 09 2011 01:17 dark fury wrote: 1. Nydus Worm 2. Overlord Drops
Who said immobility was a problem?
It's not about getting them across map. It's about getting them out of the way of things that kill them once they're there.
Plus having to use nydus/overlords limits your options in the mid/early game to punish greedy economic plays. If it's something like x-metal and I'm on hydras it's really tough for me to move out and deny a greedy expansion before it goes up.
funny, i thought a hydra/ling drop in the main was the best avaible way to punish a greedy player
If you gear up for it from the start it's a way to bust a player who does something greedy at the start, but that's not really what I meant and should have been more clear.
If my Protoss opponent grabs an early 3rd base off 3 gate-expand it's hard to punish that with drop. Either I invest in drop early before he plays greedy and risk being weaker to some timing pushes or early colossi or I don't have drop on hand to respond to his play. If I move out with my hydralisks cross map then I risk a counter attack or him having appropriate defenses up in time especially since hydras off creep are really vulnerable to force field splits.
drop hydras in the main, attack then 3rd base with lings. guaranteed damage
That's.. that's not even a response to what I wrote. Nor is it really accurate. You also don't even really have a reason why dropping roaches + attacking the 3rd with lings wouldn't work the same way do you?
On March 09 2011 01:17 dark fury wrote: 1. Nydus Worm 2. Overlord Drops
Who said immobility was a problem?
It's not about getting them across map. It's about getting them out of the way of things that kill them once they're there.
Plus having to use nydus/overlords limits your options in the mid/early game to punish greedy economic plays. If it's something like x-metal and I'm on hydras it's really tough for me to move out and deny a greedy expansion before it goes up.
funny, i thought a hydra/ling drop in the main was the best avaible way to punish a greedy player
If you gear up for it from the start it's a way to bust a player who does something greedy at the start, but that's not really what I meant and should have been more clear.
If my Protoss opponent grabs an early 3rd base off 3 gate-expand it's hard to punish that with drop. Either I invest in drop early before he plays greedy and risk being weaker to some timing pushes or early colossi or I don't have drop on hand to respond to his play. If I move out with my hydralisks cross map then I risk a counter attack or him having appropriate defenses up in time especially since hydras off creep are really vulnerable to force field splits.
drop hydras in the main, attack then 3rd base with lings. guaranteed damage
Protoss uses sentries at the 3rd, colossi's in the main. Guaranteed resource dump. You might get a pylon, though.
6 range, both ground/air and great DPS. And they're fast on creep (spread the creep!!).
Also, they work really well with Roaches. Roach/Hydra army is much more "healthly" than just Roaches, because they don't hit air and can't hit everything because of range 4.
In ZvP, If something is to be changed, should be Colossus.
On March 09 2011 01:42 Volka wrote: There's nothing wrong with Hydras.
6 range, both ground/air and great DPS. And they're fast on creep (spread the creep!!).
Also, they work really well with Roaches. Roach/Hydra army is much more "healthly" than just Roaches, because they don't hit air and can't hit everything because of range 4.
In ZvP, If something is to be changed, should be Colossus.
The roach range really isn't all that limiting in many situations. Attacking into a choke is a bad idea regardless of if it's pure roach or roach hydra as either way you need a big fat arc (especially because of FFs). So usually you can get your roaches all within range pretty easily. Air is situational as well and really hydras seems to be the wrong response to air pressure ZvP as it frees the P to go stalker/colossi/vr which crushes an army that's using hydras for anti-air.
The unmentioned advantage of roaches too is their more readily reusable because of burrow regen. Having 10 roaches go from 1/2 hp to full hp after a battle is a huge savings (you've essentially regenerated 375/125 resources worth of hp).
Most of the time I make hydras it's because I feel like I have to to be able to dent a big gateway ball, not necessarily because I want to be making hydras.
Hydras rape the core 3 gateway units, every stargate unit and 3/4 robotics facility units (sure war prisms and observers arent attacking units, but access to hydras allows you to shutdown both drops and obs scouting). Colossus and High Templar are cost effective against hydras, both of which have a massive gas cost associated with them. So buffing hydras is the obvious solution right?
Personally I think the hydra is too good at what it's good at right now... but terrible at dealing with it's "counters". So games look like they are playing cat and mouse with various units.
I find this somewhat cool since it puts alot of skill involved in properly managing your hydras... but at the same time, threads like these make me think that some zerg players would rather have some Stalker like unit that isn't awesome against anything, but decent against everything.
Not sure what really is better... I kinda hate the whole Switch roaches/hydra ides though.
On March 09 2011 01:51 MarKeD wrote: Hydras rape the core 3 gateway units, every stargate unit and 3/4 robotics facility units (sure war prisms and observers arent attacking units, but access to hydras allows you to shutdown both drops and obs scouting). Colossus and High Templar are cost effective against hydras, both of which have a massive gas cost associated with them. So buffing hydras is the obvious solution right?
psssst....
Hydras have a massive gas cost. A colossi that hits 3 units/attack is doing about the same dps/gas as a hydralisk (58dps for colossi vs 54dps for 4 hydras, but the hydras are more affected by armor) and hitting 4+ targets it blows the hydras out of the water. The colossi also has better hp/gas cost and superior range. So for dps purposes both units are very gas intensive.
@Furycrab if the hydra was like the marine where you could micro it and had to micro it to overcome its hard counters then it'd be a pretty good game dynamic. Right now with their slow speed and heavy cost it doesn't seem really feasible to play like that though. The game may evolve to that point so I'm not really asking for a hydra buff at the moment, but whatever.
I think a lot of people are getting too caught up in the Stats of the Hydra (DPS/Move Speed) instead of looking at the point of the OP (at least as I understood it) which is that Hydras don't currently fit well into any viable Zerg army composition. There is always a better choice and the better choice usually ends up being cheaper/faster to produce AND usually works better in a large army engagement against the typical large armies fielded by your opponent.
IMO a change to the base Hydra stats would cause too many balance problems to arise; however I think a researchable upgrade for the Hydra OR another Zerg unit that allows them to have better synergy when mixed in with the usual Zerg army composition would open up some doors for new styles of Zerg play. And Im pretty sure EVERYONE on this forum wants to see something new from Zerg players as a whole before Heart of the Swarm is released.
On March 09 2011 02:00 Noocta wrote: I wish they were faster, even with less dps. Zerg need to be fast, slow high dps unit don't fit well into the playstyle.
On March 09 2011 02:00 Noocta wrote: I wish they were faster, even with less dps. Zerg need to be fast, slow high dps unit don't fit well into the playstyle.
They are a protoss unit in a zerg army.
Well said.
The hydra needs some serious twinking or it's going to become another reaper.
I've been trying to use more hydras in my play and I just finished a game where I droped my hydras onto the opponent and crushed him it can be viable but it really needs a speed boost and or a armor buff
people forget that hydras affect the meta game of PvZ even if you dont use them, because the fact that zerg CAN get hydras forces the protoss to tech for AoE.
Patch 1.3 is going to make hydras a very common ZvZ unit. Fungal shuts down mutas so hard right now that there's no need for GtA units beyond queens and infestors. Once mutas can dodge fungals, you'll start to see a lot more mutas, and roach players will have to respond with hydras.
FWIW, hydras also fill a critical ZvP role forcing colossi. (Believe it or not, if it weren't for hydras, we Protoss players would be happy to take a comfortable third behind an immortal push and then go immortal stormer for the win.) There are also very powerful hydra attack timings before colossus range that are particularly effective with OL speed for creep spread. With drops, you can also ninja the hydras up cliffs to deal with colossus positioning. It's very deadly.
In ZvT, hydras are AWESOME against bio. If T goes FE into bio, you can make some hydras and a couple infestors and be invincible to mass expand until tanks.
So I think you'll see more hydras soon in ZvZ, and in the other MU's, even if you don't see hydras used a lot, they're still performing critical roles in the metagame.
FWIW, hydras also fill a critical ZvP role forcing colossi. (Believe it or not, if it weren't for hydras, we Protoss players would be happy to take a comfortable third behind an immortal push and then go immortal stormer for the win.) There are also very powerful hydra attack timings before colossus range that are particularly effective with OL speed for creep spread. With drops, you can also ninja the hydras up cliffs to deal with colossus positioning. It's very deadly.
On March 09 2011 02:16 dark fury wrote: people forget that hydras affect the meta game of PvZ even if you dont use them, because the fact that zerg CAN get hydras forces the protoss to tech for AoE.
Did you even think about what you just said before you hit post, you make it sound like colossi and high templar are units that protoss only gets because of hydralisks. When is the last time you saw a solid hydra push, now how often do you see solid 6 gate pushes for wins? Hydras are used because theirs literally nothing else to use, exempting pure roach/corrupter, which only implies that roaches are better then hydras in the first place.
On March 09 2011 01:51 MarKeD wrote: Hydras rape the core 3 gateway units, every stargate unit and 3/4 robotics facility units (sure war prisms and observers arent attacking units, but access to hydras allows you to shutdown both drops and obs scouting). Colossus and High Templar are cost effective against hydras, both of which have a massive gas cost associated with them. So buffing hydras is the obvious solution right?
You note that Obs and Warp Prisms aren't attacking units, yet you include them your argument anyways. I could replace Hydras with Marines in your argument and no one would notice the difference. Just because one unit is great in one matchup, doesn't mean it isn't weak.
You're completely ignoring the unit as a whole and blinded by how effective it is in your matchup. It's a useless unit in ZvT, soon to be phased out in ZvZ and goes from great to near useless in ZvP. Zerg has a small selection of units to pick from so to even have one that is situation specific is detrimental.
i think its unintentionally gimmicky. its amazing vs gateway units, immortals but completely terrible vs colossus, storm, terran. i think blizzard should definitely tweak it somehow. havin units taht are better against some units than others is fine, but it should be within reason.
On March 09 2011 02:21 kcdc wrote: Patch 1.3 is going to make hydras a very common ZvZ unit. Fungal shuts down mutas so hard right now that there's no need for GtA units beyond queens and infestors. Once mutas can dodge fungals, you'll start to see a lot more mutas, and roach players will have to respond with hydras.
FWIW, hydras also fill a critical ZvP role forcing colossi. (Believe it or not, if it weren't for hydras, we Protoss players would be happy to take a comfortable third behind an immortal push and then go immortal stormer for the win.) There are also very powerful hydra attack timings before colossus range that are particularly effective with OL speed for creep spread. With drops, you can also ninja the hydras up cliffs to deal with colossus positioning. It's very deadly.
In ZvT, hydras are AWESOME against bio. If T goes FE into bio, you can make some hydras and a couple infestors and be invincible to mass expand until tanks.
So I think you'll see more hydras soon in ZvZ, and in the other MU's, even if you don't see hydras used a lot, they're still performing critical roles in the metagame.
You seem to be higher lvl player than me so maybe I don't know something, but hydras awesome vs. bio? Are you kidding me? Or you are talking about situation where you have hydras and infestors vs. pure marines? Then yeah, you may be right, but then no idea what terran has been doing. If he adds tanks you are dead I think, and tanks don't take forever to build afaik. Actually I watch good amount of pro games and in last 3 month I haven't seen anyone go hydra vs. terran.
Useful in some cases like for drop all-INS but a terrible core unit. Only good versus heavy immortal play... They are just too slow and weak. I the fact that terran andto some extent Protoss can use all units for matchup provided they have the right upgrade but not Zerg...at all. Don't mean to QQ but I don't get to use my favorite units often like the ultra and hydra. With this in mind I think ZvP is a balanced matchups because all of boths races units are viable in some situations whereas it is never a good idea to use hydras in ZvT.
On March 09 2011 02:39 SoulScream wrote: I think with simple speed upgrade for 125/125 (+-25 minerals and gas) it will become much better and much more used in every match
Their health would still be pathetic and they'd still instantly disappear at the start of every battle once the opponent has AoE.
If you build hydras you're under a timelimit to do something with them before AoE renders them completely worthless.
On March 09 2011 02:16 dark fury wrote: people forget that hydras affect the meta game of PvZ even if you dont use them, because the fact that zerg CAN get hydras forces the protoss to tech for AoE.
and on the other hand we have the arguments from people that want imbalanced units fighting imbalanced units. Guess no one will even be happy hehe.
PS: try chargelots against hydra only just like bw a good match those two (well roaches are good anti zealot tanks for hydras), especially if you manage to be on perfect range with your guardian shield to prevent sniping.
well it seems that zerg players don't like that they have to build more then 3 units in a matchup to win against the 14 units of the opponent, but at the same time they don't have enough units its so complicated to make them happy, that zerg hopefully stays the way it is, since i really like playing the race and especially love the hydra.
On March 09 2011 00:16 Pepe- wrote: Hydra is fine, its the Roach rangebuff that made the Hydra less needed.
Worst mis-information out there.
Hydras are shitty cuz hydras are shitty, roaches have nothing to do with it.
That's like trying to claim that Colossus make Stalkers pointless. There is no correlation between the units what-so ever.
In fact, the roach buff should make hydras MORE viable as they share upgrades and roaches are actually decent now.
You can play mass Roaches till lategame zvp while Hydra/Roach should be the choice, not?
Roach should be the lowrange "tank" unit while Hydras should do the damage, now many Roaches do well dps per cost aswell. Range buff was imo the wrong kind of buff.
hydras seem too fragile and slow for too little gain, and have no real advantage over the roach, excepting as for use in place of spore colonies i wish i could call them viable, they are my favourite unit, but they seem as useless as ultralisks
i would swap the hydra and the stalkers roles, slow the stalker down and let it keep blink/let it be stronger but build for as long as zealots to compensate for stronger 4 gates, and speed the hydra up somewhat, it also might need to be cheaper or something seriously, i think hydras could have the same price as roaches with no real consequence as the game is now
On March 09 2011 02:16 dark fury wrote: people forget that hydras affect the meta game of PvZ even if you dont use them, because the fact that zerg CAN get hydras forces the protoss to tech for AoE.
which happens to be what they would do anyways
Not unless they 4 gate or 6 gate you cause they see you spamming roaches.
i voted for dying and yes it can not remain because the hydra feels to god dam slow of creep i do not think it needs a massive change just a small extra bit of speed or something maybe an upgrade would be nice even vs protoss once they get forcefield there dead and they cant get into position fast enough when the protoss has colossus. thats how i feel about it anyways
On March 09 2011 01:59 MooseyFate wrote: I think a lot of people are getting too caught up in the Stats of the Hydra (DPS/Move Speed) instead of looking at the point of the OP (at least as I understood it) which is that Hydras don't currently fit well into any viable Zerg army composition. There is always a better choice and the better choice usually ends up being cheaper/faster to produce AND usually works better in a large army engagement against the typical large armies fielded by your opponent.
IMO a change to the base Hydra stats would cause too many balance problems to arise; however I think a researchable upgrade for the Hydra OR another Zerg unit that allows them to have better synergy when mixed in with the usual Zerg army composition would open up some doors for new styles of Zerg play. And Im pretty sure EVERYONE on this forum wants to see something new from Zerg players as a whole before Heart of the Swarm is released.
i really dont know why eveyrone is asking zerg players to try new things.... this has been discussed TO DEATH!!!!
what unit combos would you like me to try???? IVE TRIED THEM ALL!!!!! hydras are OKAY at what they do. they buy you time. you can build a few to buy time but if you overcommit in the slightest your FUCKED. 4 coll and a handful of stalker sentry beat 200 army of hydras ez pz.
zerg only has 9 units compared to terrans like ~15 (one of these units is corrupter = basically useless in zvt unless they go BC, another is hydra ><) so why dont YOU start doing somthing different. terrans do the exact same tank marine timing push or hellion --> banshee strat every fucking game, and noone talks shit about them.... except for me, and nearly every other zerg and protoss i know.
Hydras are pretty bad but not even if I stretch myself I don't see them being obsolete in zvp ever.
This is because you can kill protoss with a good hydra push, they are sometimes needed against void+gates rushes and hydra drops has been proven quite strong many times in GSL and IEM.
Against terran they will sometimes be produced against double starport but other then that I only see them as a finishing move in rare situations.
For example after huge battle remake only hydras if all you don't want terran to be able to float his third/forth back home etc.
Overall zerg needs some love but you don't buff units because they are bad. Starcraft as a game is fine with having bad units imo.
Overall zerg needs some love but you don't buff units because they are bad. Starcraft as a game is fine with having bad units imo.
1) there not calling for a buff, the op is asking if they need a CHANGE change does not equal buff.
2) why the FUCK else would you buff a unit???
3) the OP never said hydras were a bad unit, he said they dont fit in with zergs playstyle at all. but seriously, why would you want a bad unit in the game. unless your a troll.
hm... right, 1.3 patch is kind of an indirect nerf for hydras. one of the great things with hydra was their range, so you could attack units held down by fungal. with the decreased time, this tactic is not legit anymore.
On March 09 2011 02:39 vOdToasT wrote: As long as it stays useful in ZvP, I'm happy. They're only useful in one matchup in StarCraft 1, you know.
yeah actually in sc1 they were a crucial unit in zvp and zvt (5hatch hydra anyone), not seeing nearly as much use in zvz ONLY because they only did 50% dmg to mutas. however, they were built occasionally in zvz has a means to expand easier and thus gain an eco advantage.
On March 09 2011 01:59 MooseyFate wrote: I think a lot of people are getting too caught up in the Stats of the Hydra (DPS/Move Speed) instead of looking at the point of the OP (at least as I understood it) which is that Hydras don't currently fit well into any viable Zerg army composition. There is always a better choice and the better choice usually ends up being cheaper/faster to produce AND usually works better in a large army engagement against the typical large armies fielded by your opponent.
IMO a change to the base Hydra stats would cause too many balance problems to arise; however I think a researchable upgrade for the Hydra OR another Zerg unit that allows them to have better synergy when mixed in with the usual Zerg army composition would open up some doors for new styles of Zerg play. And Im pretty sure EVERYONE on this forum wants to see something new from Zerg players as a whole before Heart of the Swarm is released.
i really dont know why eveyrone is asking zerg players to try new things.... this has been discussed TO DEATH!!!!
what unit combos would you like me to try???? IVE TRIED THEM ALL!!!!! hydras are OKAY at what they do. they buy you time. you can build a few to buy time but if you overcommit in the slightest your FUCKED. 4 coll and a handful of stalker sentry beat 200 army of hydras ez pz.
zerg only has 9 units compared to terrans like ~15 (one of these units is corrupter = basically useless in zvt unless they go BC, another is hydra ><) so why dont YOU start doing somthing different. terrans do the exact same tank marine timing push or hellion --> banshee strat every fucking game, and noone talks shit about them.... except for me, and nearly every other zerg and protoss i know.
I actually very much agree with this. People are suggesting we try other things. We HAVE been trying things because over and over again Zerg has shown itself to be extremely susceptible to really basic attacks by Terran and Protoss.
Seriously, what serious developments have Protoss and Terran dealt with that have made them significantly change their playstyle? Nothing. Terran is still doing the exact same thing. After 1.3 I'm actually afraid that mass marine will be even stronger vs zerg now that they can dodge fungals.
Terran can make marines even against its direct counters. Actually everyone can do that. That's GOOD. That's cool. That makes the game interesting. If the Hydralisk was faster than the colossus, then it might actually be somewhat useful even while colossi are out because it's more mobile. But right now, the answer to Colossus is "Don't Make Hydras" and that is a dull game.
I have never understood why hydras can't be significantly faster off creep. Zerg is supposed to be the mobile race. I dno't see how fast hydras would break any matchup.
Overall zerg needs some love but you don't buff units because they are bad. Starcraft as a game is fine with having bad units imo.
1) there not calling for a buff, the op is asking if they need a CHANGE change does not equal buff.
2) why the FUCK else would you buff a unit???
3) the OP never said hydras were a bad unit, he said they dont fit in with zergs playstyle at all. but seriously, why would you want a bad unit in the game. unless your a troll.
1. Yes they could change the hydra into having a completely different function that alters it into having more use. However for me that's a "How I would change the game" aspect and I think those kind of discussions are useless thus in this context I can only see change as buff.
2. You buff units to buff the race, unsure how you could not grasp this.
3. He said they are a dying unit = they lack a real purpose. Who said I wanted bad units in the game? I said you don't buff units because they are bad, this is because all blizzard should care about is balance between the races and good mirror matches and they should let the players find uses for the units.
Overall zerg needs some love but you don't buff units because they are bad. Starcraft as a game is fine with having bad units imo.
1) there not calling for a buff, the op is asking if they need a CHANGE change does not equal buff.
2) why the FUCK else would you buff a unit???
3) the OP never said hydras were a bad unit, he said they dont fit in with zergs playstyle at all. but seriously, why would you want a bad unit in the game. unless your a troll.
Just my 2 cents. You buff/nerf a unit to balance the game, not the unit. Look at the reaper. It got nerfed into oblivion. Does it need a buff? No, because Terran are strong enough without it.
On March 09 2011 00:16 Pepe- wrote: Hydra is fine, its the Roach rangebuff that made the Hydra less needed.
Worst mis-information out there.
Hydras are shitty cuz hydras are shitty, roaches have nothing to do with it.
That's like trying to claim that Colossus make Stalkers pointless. There is no correlation between the units what-so ever.
In fact, the roach buff should make hydras MORE viable as they share upgrades and roaches are actually decent now.
You can play mass Roaches till lategame zvp while Hydra/Roach should be the choice, not?
Roach should be the lowrange "tank" unit while Hydras should do the damage, now many Roaches do well dps per cost aswell. Range buff was imo the wrong kind of buff.
You know why Marine Marauder work so well ? They both move at the same speed. Making hydra roach instead of pure roaches is detriment to your mobility which is bad everywhere beside in ZvP before colossus and storm. And well, pure gateway is bad pass earlygame while hydra are a midgame unit. Zerg army is weak by nature. They need to be able to move fast to balance that.
I'd never understand the design idea of the new Hydra. I mean.. It's in contradiction with every zerg patern.
On March 09 2011 00:16 Pepe- wrote: Hydra is fine, its the Roach rangebuff that made the Hydra less needed.
Worst mis-information out there.
Hydras are shitty cuz hydras are shitty, roaches have nothing to do with it.
That's like trying to claim that Colossus make Stalkers pointless. There is no correlation between the units what-so ever.
In fact, the roach buff should make hydras MORE viable as they share upgrades and roaches are actually decent now.
You can play mass Roaches till lategame zvp while Hydra/Roach should be the choice, not?
Roach should be the lowrange "tank" unit while Hydras should do the damage, now many Roaches do well dps per cost aswell. Range buff was imo the wrong kind of buff.
Exactly. You almost have to play mass roaches really. Sentries totally shut down hydras. Colossi totally shut down hydras. Blink stalkers can just run away. You can't really do hydralisk pressure against a protoss. If you want to attack and he has sentries, he can hold you off until colossi appear using sentries.
Look at Losira, he went pretty much pure roach, didn't even make a hydra den vs HuK and used the roaches to dominate against the sentry heavy early composition and then kept the pressure up, while colossi didn't manage to be particularly effective. If he'd invested in hydralisks, he would have had less roaches, and the hydras would have just been shut down at many stages, and made his army much much less mobile. Hydras would have seriously hurt him vs a mainly stalkr/immo composition.
Zergs everywhere should be trying to make this build work for them in ZvP, feels alot better than roach, hydra, corruptor. (and it still includes the hydra). It's basically the only way i play ZvP now.. (~3000 diamond)
how about nerfing hydras (+ make them faster off creep) and making them T1 unit, AND slightly buffing roaches and making them T2 unit? To me, as ex-bw player, the current state of zerg just seems so wrong. I think it would also solve many issues zerg players are complaining about.
On March 08 2011 10:32 NoXious90 wrote: Here's an easy way to fix zerg/make them better. Revert Hydras back to the way they were in BW (tier 1), bump Roaches up to tier 2 thus giving them a buff and, finally, bring lurkers back.
Won't the HT nerf help the situation ZvP? When a zerg overkills toss's collosi with corrupters they're basically required to go HT to deal AoE, but without the amulet upgrade this will be less godly than before. I'm not nearly good enough to predict exactly how these changes will affect things, but I'm thinking without warp-in storms perhaps a hydra mix army will be on equal footing vs gateway/immortal/HT.
On March 09 2011 01:59 MooseyFate wrote: I think a lot of people are getting too caught up in the Stats of the Hydra (DPS/Move Speed) instead of looking at the point of the OP (at least as I understood it) which is that Hydras don't currently fit well into any viable Zerg army composition. There is always a better choice and the better choice usually ends up being cheaper/faster to produce AND usually works better in a large army engagement against the typical large armies fielded by your opponent.
IMO a change to the base Hydra stats would cause too many balance problems to arise; however I think a researchable upgrade for the Hydra OR another Zerg unit that allows them to have better synergy when mixed in with the usual Zerg army composition would open up some doors for new styles of Zerg play. And Im pretty sure EVERYONE on this forum wants to see something new from Zerg players as a whole before Heart of the Swarm is released.
i really dont know why eveyrone is asking zerg players to try new things.... this has been discussed TO DEATH!!!!
what unit combos would you like me to try???? IVE TRIED THEM ALL!!!!! hydras are OKAY at what they do. they buy you time. you can build a few to buy time but if you overcommit in the slightest your FUCKED. 4 coll and a handful of stalker sentry beat 200 army of hydras ez pz.
zerg only has 9 units compared to terrans like ~15 (one of these units is corrupter = basically useless in zvt unless they go BC, another is hydra ><) so why dont YOU start doing somthing different. terrans do the exact same tank marine timing push or hellion --> banshee strat every fucking game, and noone talks shit about them.... except for me, and nearly every other zerg and protoss i know.
No need to rage at a fellow Zerg player, especially because I think you misunderstood my post.
I play Zerg and always feel like I start the game behind my opponent if they are not Z as well. In the current state of the Meta and actual game, Zerg has fewer options and top level Z players are doing almost everything they can with what they have available to them and are still coming up short compared to the other two races.
I was suggesting that there needs to be a change to the Hydra in terms of role, not just DPS or Faster Move Speed, that will help that unit fit into the rest of the Zerg army as a whole.
Most of the time I gloss over these kinds of threads with a justifiable eye-roll, but OP makes a good point. The hydra is a conundrum, and a difficult one.
But even though I find the OP's arguments about the role of the hydra strong, I can't say that it has no uses. Hydra/speedling is an absolute hammer against giant gateway unit compositions. Against VR rushes or pheonixes hydras are extremely effective. ZvT right now they aren't used often but I still go hydra/roach in ZvT now and again when an opponent insists on pure bio, and it works pretty well.
I don't think Blizzard needs to start over when it comes to the hydra, but I find a quick easy solution hard to dream up. Hydras still see enough use in professional/high level play that IMO if these really good players are using them, they definitely have uses, but there's enough downsides to the hydra to limit them unnecessarily.
On March 09 2011 04:42 Arrian wrote: ZvT right now they aren't used often but I still go hydra/roach in ZvT now and again when an opponent insists on pure bio, and it works pretty well.
I would like to know how you do that. I genuinely want to know.
Every time I tried Hydras in ZvT they got absolutely demolished by BIO/Tanks. They are really only effective against Vikings/Thors, in my eyes. And Battlecruisers too.
Marines, hellions, tanks, marauders kill then too cost effective, for me. 100 minerals in marines can kill 100/50 in Hydras, and with increased numbers the marines "instant" shot kill Hydras even faster and more cost effective. Over 15 units marines kill Hydras almost 1for1, so 50min against 100/50. And I am yet to meet a Terran that don't make marines against zerg.
thats just not true. with 130 hydras u can easily hit from 3 or even 4 sides makin the colossus much less effective.
Yeah, in La La Land where sentries don't exist and Nydus worms are free.
Yeah totally hitting from 4 sides is awesome in SC2 *sarcasm off*. Seems like somebody totally forgot how slow hydras are...and hitting from 4 sides is a not possible on most maps, not even with godly creep spread... and if it s possible then only in one spot on the map. Good luck timing out your hydras.
No its not possible for u because ur bad t.t Pro players are already hititing from 2 and 3 sides (even with the low unit counts), go back to rts 101 before u assume to talk. Just because something is difficult does not mean it isn't worthwhile. On another note go watch moon's iem games. Kid owns shit up with hydras.
I personally don't think they need a buff or a nerf nearly as badly as they need to be redone. There is no general purpose for the Hydralisk in the Zerg arsenal anymore. It's become a situational unit, where it's use thereafter quickly fades once the proper "counter" is introduced into the mix. I don't know guys, most disappointing unit for me in SC2, which held so many memories and high expectations .
A step in the right direction would be to increase the speed or introduce an upgrade for it, and possibly reduce it's cost & damage. Roaches do perhaps TOO much damage, and they fill the role of the Hydra. They tank, are extremely mobile, and do a decent amount of dps, not to mention half of the cost.
I'm not going to speak to any matchup but PvZ, the one I know, but hydras decimate any protoss composition that doesn't involve colossi or high templar, both tier 3 units.
If hydras were buffed I feel like there could be some hydra all in builds that can straight up own protoss before they can get any of these units out. It would force lots of cannons. We've already seen this some, but a buff would make it so you would need like 9-10 cannons to stop these.
On March 09 2011 06:41 freetgy wrote: maybe get more queens early on and spread creep faster. Hydras on creep can kite most of P Army except colossus.
Get obs, kill creep. Get raven, kill creep.
Hydras can't kite stalkers.
no, but they are already cost effective against Stalker by design... 1 Hydra (100/50) is on par with 1 Stalker (125/50)
sure Stalker has twice hp, but Hydra has twice the dps a stalker makes like 6.9 dps against light / 9.7 dps against armored. while Hydras do 14.5 dps against everything while costing LESS.
Hydras gain 1.2 dps per upgrade and armor affects all their health While Stalkers gain 0,7 dps upgrade and armor effects only half their health
Colossus is one of the only ways to deal with mass hydras. now coming here and saying Hydras need a buff because they melt to colossus makes absolutely no sense when Hydras already shreed 90% of everything Protoss can build.
And Hydra is already as fast as 80% of Protoss Army (2.25) + has the creep advantage.
Hydra may be slow for Zerg standards, but definitly not for game standards.
I disagree completely, I feel like the Hydra is actually becoming more relevant, that it is rising fast. Day9's Mass Queen funday monday showcased how amazing hydras are, you simply need creep, and there have been too many games to name in the recent GSL and sc2casts.com where hydras are becoming the key unit. Take elfi vs Dimaga for a most recent example of how amazing hydras are, they just need to be used correctly. And note that hydras are actually pretty quick units when on creep, allowing for flanking even.
The hydra was never broken, it really did come down to metagame - players before didn't grasp the full importance of creep. Just look at any GSL game of a Zerg in season 1, to the current season. Even Idra and Nestea rarely spread creep farther than a single tumor from the expansion. And we haven't even seen major Nydus usage yet, with a few games here and there really underlying the amazing possibilities they open up (hopetorture vs fruitdealer)
Buffs of 10-15hp were tried in the beta, and it was broken. The hydra is a perfectly fine unit, people just didn't realize creep was so important. Now, people are beginning to move mass overlords with speed with their hydras, you are starting to see queen drops for tumors at the front lines.
Why don't you use unit tester and see how the hydra works with creep, and without. You'll realize they just aren't being used correctly, as cliche as that might sound. We are also seeing a similar metagame change with the hellion - no longer used as a quick build 2 against Zerg (or 5 for crazy reactor instead of blue flame!!11!) for harassment and then never make them again. Instead, now we are seeing them used aggressively against Protoss with the new emergence of mech, which is still in it's infantile stages (take iNControl vs DDE) as well as in TvT, with the many recent games with TLO, IMMVP, Jinro, etc... where Hellions are extremely useful, not just in a early timing attack (a trend started about 2 months ago) but in full combat.
We are also seeing phoenixes change in the metagame, and the recent patch did nothing to change balance (besides in PvZ) but did everything to encourage further investigation into the unit. Spoiler Alert regarding GSL March: + Show Spoiler +
Jinro even stated that if HongUnPrime goes phoenixes, he will lose, and gasp, what happened
. Even in PvP we are seeing more phoenix usage (TLO vs Zeerax), two matchups where phoenixes used to be non-existent.
So I think the Original Post is completely wrong, and off. Just because when YOU use the unit you fail, doesn't mean it needs to be buffed. Maybe you aren't playing the unit correctly, and you should look to see if there is any way that unit could be used well. Take the reaper - while recent 'nerfs' have served to limit it's application, the reaper still has it's use and is extremely powerful at specific times. Some units are more niche than others; the marine will always be seen as too powerful because of its resourcefulness. And a unit may not be designed to be an end-all be all, some units are there because they can be used for very specific timing attacks other races have a hard time dealing with. Every unit has a time and place - if you think your unit is trash, learn at what game time it isn't. If you think your unit is weak, learn what engagement it is strongest in.
Ravens, Archons, Motherships, infestors, phoenixes, carriers even (PainUser vs Kiwikaki) are all becoming relevant units, but people either don't know how to use them or are just starting to.
-10 second build time did nothing to buff phoenix builds, now? Oh my.
Zerg have been experimenting with hydra since release. It's not like Ravens or carriers or Archons, where you don't need them becuase there are better units... hydra are the primary anti air for the zerg ground army.
Hydra are strong, but at 100/50, it's a joke how fast they die. How would terrans react if Marines were 50/25? That's what a hydra is. Except 2 marines are better anyway.
Why dont they just make hydras much faster off creep and give them a smaller bonus while on it? Would make a lot of sense and not make them too fast on creep.
On March 09 2011 09:07 Mailing wrote: Hydra are strong, but at 100/50, it's a joke how fast they die. How would terrans react if Marines were 50/25? That's what a hydra is. Except 2 marines are better anyway.
yeah and Stalker is worse, cost more how that isn't a joke? and P doesn't even have queens with transfuse for Anti Air.
half the hp of the stalker double the dps, seems absolute fine
1:1 both units die unupgraded upgraded Hydra> Stalker
On March 09 2011 09:07 Mailing wrote: Hydra are strong, but at 100/50, it's a joke how fast they die. How would terrans react if Marines were 50/25? That's what a hydra is. Except 2 marines are better anyway.
yeah and Stalker is worse, cost more how that isn't a joke? and P doesn't even have queens with transfuse for Anti Air.
On March 09 2011 09:07 Mailing wrote: Hydra are strong, but at 100/50, it's a joke how fast they die. How would terrans react if Marines were 50/25? That's what a hydra is. Except 2 marines are better anyway.
yeah and Stalker is worse, cost more how that isn't a joke? and P doesn't even have queens with transfuse for Anti Air.
Stalkers are more mobile and you can get blink.
ling/Hydras are the counter to blink stalkers.... how does this work with you understanding ?
Ionno why ppl keep saying Hydras demolish Gate units. Try out 50 food Hydra army w/ Range upgrade vs 50 food Zealot army w/ charge upgrade - the Zealots demolish the hydras =_=''
Hell, even a 50 food roach army gets demolished by 50 food chargezealots.
Stalkers are weak sauce, the only strong gate unit is the Zealot :D
in starcraft 2 ce version box set there was a dvd of making starcraft 2. and they visited the blance team and they were working on hydra.he said " we are trying to fix hydra to get into the game play"
-10 second build time did nothing to buff phoenix builds, now? Oh my.
It did nothing to lower their value (cost to dmg/health/speed/etc) or change how they performed. It only allowed for earlier timing attacks and for PvZ, for the most part. Don't act like you have no idea what I'm saying.
Hydra are strong, but at 100/50, it's a joke how fast they die. How would terrans react if Marines were 50/25? That's what a hydra is. Except 2 marines are better anyway.
a roach and a hydra is much stronger than a hydra/hydra, and 4 marines. You need the life/armor/durability of roaches with hydras. No one says roaches are broken, yet 2 roaches = 1 hydra in DPS. The main point of hydras is to supplement roaches and free up supply, as 1hydra+50minerals+2supply=2roaches in DPS.
-10 second build time did nothing to buff phoenix builds, now? Oh my.
It did nothing to lower their value (cost to dmg/health/speed/etc) or change how they performed. It only allowed for earlier timing attacks and for PvZ, for the most part. Don't act like you have no idea what I'm saying.
Hydra are strong, but at 100/50, it's a joke how fast they die. How would terrans react if Marines were 50/25? That's what a hydra is. Except 2 marines are better anyway.
a roach and a hydra is much stronger than a hydra/hydra, and 4 marines. You need the life/armor/durability of roaches with hydras. No one says roaches are broken, yet 2 roaches = 1 hydra in DPS. The main point of hydras is to supplement roaches and free up supply, as 1hydra+50minerals+2supply=2roaches in DPS.
The issue is that while the hydra has 2X roach worth in DPS, it has about 1/3.5 of 2 roaches health. This means it dies to everything and thus doesn't deal it's DPS for long enough to make it worthwhile.
On March 09 2011 09:07 Mailing wrote: Hydra are strong, but at 100/50, it's a joke how fast they die. How would terrans react if Marines were 50/25? That's what a hydra is. Except 2 marines are better anyway.
yeah and Stalker is worse, cost more how that isn't a joke? and P doesn't even have queens with transfuse for Anti Air.
Stalkers are more mobile and you can get blink.
ling/Hydras are the counter to blink stalkers.... how does this work with you understanding ?
That's not the point....hydras arent being compared against stalkers in a fight but with their mobility. Zerg is supposed to be the most mobile race and yet hydras are slow and fragile at best.
-10 second build time did nothing to buff phoenix builds, now? Oh my.
It did nothing to lower their value (cost to dmg/health/speed/etc) or change how they performed. It only allowed for earlier timing attacks and for PvZ, for the most part. Don't act like you have no idea what I'm saying.
Hydra are strong, but at 100/50, it's a joke how fast they die. How would terrans react if Marines were 50/25? That's what a hydra is. Except 2 marines are better anyway.
a roach and a hydra is much stronger than a hydra/hydra, and 4 marines. You need the life/armor/durability of roaches with hydras. No one says roaches are broken, yet 2 roaches = 1 hydra in DPS. The main point of hydras is to supplement roaches and free up supply, as 1hydra+50minerals+2supply=2roaches in DPS.
The issue is that while the hydra has 2X roach worth in DPS, it has about 1/3.5 of 2 roaches health. This means it dies to everything and thus doesn't deal it's DPS for long enough to make it worthwhile.
Yes. This is what the problem with the hydra is. The hydra in SC2 was made a lot more expensive that the SC1 hydra, however its health was left untouched and the only real upgrade is the dps. That however is offset by the slow speed off creep. So I would say that the SC2 hydra is just a lot more expensive and bigger version of the sc:bw hydra. ATM this is a unit having an identity crisis since there is no clear role for it to fill in a zerg army. If Anti air is needed most people will build a spire instead of hydra den since corruptors are useful against colossi also. Its a unit with very narrow use. A easy solution is that hydras should be faster both on and off creep, as suggested, for them to be more useful. This will make microing them a lot easier and increase their effectiveness.
On March 09 2011 09:18 MoMoGai wrote: Ionno why ppl keep saying Hydras demolish Gate units. Try out 50 food Hydra army w/ Range upgrade vs 50 food Zealot army w/ charge upgrade - the Zealots demolish the hydras =_=''
Hell, even a 50 food roach army gets demolished by 50 food chargezealots.
Stalkers are weak sauce, the only strong gate unit is the Zealot :D
Stalkers are not all that weak. They cost almost the same as a hydra, have 2x the HP ,1/2 the dps and have great mobility. You will also have to consider blink upgrade which in the hands of a competent player is a very powerful ability. What this means is that the hydra only demolish gateway units pre twilight council upgrades. After any of those upgrades the gateway units would probably be able to hold their own.
On March 09 2011 09:44 WickedBit wrote:A easy solution is that hydras should be faster both on and off creep, as suggested, for them to be more useful. This will make microing them a lot easier and increase their effectiveness.
Not really. The problem biggest problem with hydras isn't their inability to micro around in small unit battles (they are so expensive both resource and tech wise that you won't see them before the midgame anyway), the problem with hydras is their insane squishiness. Colossus and Siege Tanks really don't care about how well you micro your squishy units, they roast your hydras down regardless of how much dancing you try to do.
That being said, increasing their speed wouldn't be a bad thing... it just wouldn't be enough to make the unit worth anything.
On March 09 2011 09:07 Mailing wrote: Hydra are strong, but at 100/50, it's a joke how fast they die. How would terrans react if Marines were 50/25? That's what a hydra is. Except 2 marines are better anyway.
yeah and Stalker is worse, cost more how that isn't a joke? and P doesn't even have queens with transfuse for Anti Air.
Stalkers are more mobile and you can get blink.
ling/Hydras are the counter to blink stalkers.... how does this work with you understanding ?
That's not the point....hydras arent being compared against stalkers in a fight but with their mobility. Zerg is supposed to be the most mobile race and yet hydras are slow and fragile at best.
well every unit cant be super fast. i would still say that zerg is the most mobile race
IMO Hydra seem to be useless for Z because Hydra is the defensive unit and it is out of spotlight.
I think I am fine with speed of Hydra, since I really don't use it as offensive unit. That's Muta / ling's job. I really wish they can buff their build time or DPS. I think this buff can emphasize the function that Blizzard wants Hydra to be.
On March 09 2011 09:44 WickedBit wrote:A easy solution is that hydras should be faster both on and off creep, as suggested, for them to be more useful. This will make microing them a lot easier and increase their effectiveness.
Not really. The problem biggest problem with hydras isn't their inability to micro around in small unit battles (they are so expensive both resource and tech wise that you won't see them before the midgame anyway), the problem with hydras is their insane squishiness. Colossus and Siege Tanks really don't care about how well you micro your squishy units, they roast your hydras down regardless of how much dancing you try to do.
That being said, increasing their speed wouldn't be a bad thing... it just wouldn't be enough to make the unit worth anything.
Siege tanks kill both hydras and roaches in 3 hits?
On March 09 2011 09:44 WickedBit wrote:A easy solution is that hydras should be faster both on and off creep, as suggested, for them to be more useful. This will make microing them a lot easier and increase their effectiveness.
Not really. The problem biggest problem with hydras isn't their inability to micro around in small unit battles (they are so expensive both resource and tech wise that you won't see them before the midgame anyway), the problem with hydras is their insane squishiness. Colossus and Siege Tanks really don't care about how well you micro your squishy units, they roast your hydras down regardless of how much dancing you try to do.
That being said, increasing their speed wouldn't be a bad thing... it just wouldn't be enough to make the unit worth anything.
Siege tanks kill both hydras and roaches in 3 hits?
which is why almost no one uses roaches in zvt any more. even then, a hydra costs almost as much as 2 roaches, but has less hp than one.
On March 09 2011 09:44 WickedBit wrote:A easy solution is that hydras should be faster both on and off creep, as suggested, for them to be more useful. This will make microing them a lot easier and increase their effectiveness.
Not really. The problem biggest problem with hydras isn't their inability to micro around in small unit battles (they are so expensive both resource and tech wise that you won't see them before the midgame anyway), the problem with hydras is their insane squishiness. Colossus and Siege Tanks really don't care about how well you micro your squishy units, they roast your hydras down regardless of how much dancing you try to do.
That being said, increasing their speed wouldn't be a bad thing... it just wouldn't be enough to make the unit worth anything.
you're limiting micro to dancing...that's as obvious as saying you shouldn't micro against a photon cannon.
speed increase allows your hydras to move in and out of battle as well as dash in to harass expansions and run away reasonably quick. you can choose your fights and not be committed with the attack. because they are so expensive and low in hp, if you can at least run away with them, you can have them fight a better battle later on.
now here's a little bit of a micro lesson as well. if you can pull your hydras back more quickly than now, the enemy will have to 1) stop attacking your hydras and attack the tanking roaches OR 2) chase your hydras. In 1) you can then attack with your hydras high dps and in 2) your roaches will get free shots at the enemy.
Squishiness can be compensated with more health or speed and micro.
Two answers to choose from but one increases the dynamics of the game while the other just adds another A move unit to the game.
the whole idea of hydra now seems to be banking on the fact that it has to have some sort of 'tank' units such as roach or ultra or mass lings to take the dmg while it deals dmg from behind, but with slight target firing from the opponent with splash units such as tanks/collosus/storms/banelings. hydras simply die way to quickly for it's cost.
On March 09 2011 09:59 Xova wrote: Maybe I want reapers back. Should I make a post?
Indeed, reapers are now utterly useless for any purpose. Like scouting. Useless.
I'm pretty sure Zergs would be fucking overjoyed to have a 50/50 unit that could actually scout a walled-off P/T in the early game. The reaper is far from useless.
On March 09 2011 09:59 Xova wrote: Maybe I want reapers back. Should I make a post?
Is this how people approach balance (yes, I am using that word) nowadays? He gets to have this, so I should get to have that back?? Why should he get this if I don't get anything?
That is really the most awful way to approach things, as the goal of tweaking the game's mechanics is to have a better and more balanced game, and that is regardless of who gets what in the process. Some races needs more attention, some do not, that's fact.
On March 09 2011 06:41 freetgy wrote: maybe get more queens early on and spread creep faster. Hydras on creep can kite most of P Army except colossus.
Get obs, kill creep. Get raven, kill creep.
Hydras can't kite stalkers.
no, but they are already cost effective against Stalker by design... 1 Hydra (100/50) is on par with 1 Stalker (125/50)
sure Stalker has twice hp, but Hydra has twice the dps a stalker makes like 6.9 dps against light / 9.7 dps against armored. while Hydras do 14.5 dps against everything while costing LESS.
Colossus is one of the only ways to deal with mass hydras. now coming here and saying Hydras need a buff because they melt to colossus makes absolutely no sense when Hydras already shreed 90% of everything Protoss can build.
And Hydra is already as fast as 80% of Protoss Army (2.25) + has the creep advantage.
Hydra may be slow for Zerg standards, but definitly not for game standards.
You're envisioning a mystical perfect scenario where stalkers and hydras face each other in 1v1 fights.
Stalkers are faster off of creep (which takes quite a while to spread even if you are megagosu). They also regenerate shields a lot faster than hydras regenerate health, which means that pure stalker vs pure hydra will favor stalkers as long as there is sufficient micro. They share equivalent range even with the Grooved Spines upgrade. On top of all this Stalkers can Blink.
Also consider the fact that Hydras need a single individual building that doesn't open any more options on the tech tree. Cyber core is necessary for all higher tech so stalkers are an option, not a commitment.
Being so much faster on creep just reinforces the idea that hydras are a defensive unit. Creep only spreads so far before a good player starts killing tumors off.
Hydras are good against gateway units, not spectacular. They get countered by forcefields, Guardian Shield, blink play. And once you get enough hydras to pose a massive threat, Protoss will have most likely transitioned into HT/Colossus play.
HTs counters mass hydra hard.
On March 09 2011 08:59 Belial88 wrote: I disagree completely, I feel like the Hydra is actually becoming more relevant, that it is rising fast. Day9's Mass Queen funday monday showcased how amazing hydras are, you simply need creep, and there have been too many games to name in the recent GSL and sc2casts.com where hydras are becoming the key unit. Take elfi vs Dimaga for a most recent example of how amazing hydras are, they just need to be used correctly. And note that hydras are actually pretty quick units when on creep, allowing for flanking even.
He won because his hydras essentially had 160 health through Transfusions; the same result would have occurred if he had used roaches or mutalisks.
Also that was a Funday Monday. Just because people came up with inventive strategies in response to his limitations doesn't mean they are viable in high level play (and many of those strategies worked because there were not high-level games).
On March 09 2011 08:59 Belial88 wrote:The hydra was never broken, it really did come down to metagame - players before didn't grasp the full importance of creep. Just look at any GSL game of a Zerg in season 1, to the current season. Even Idra and Nestea rarely spread creep farther than a single tumor from the expansion. And we haven't even seen major Nydus usage yet, with a few games here and there really underlying the amazing possibilities they open up (hopetorture vs fruitdealer)
Buffs of 10-15hp were tried in the beta, and it was broken. The hydra is a perfectly fine unit, people just didn't realize creep was so important. Now, people are beginning to move mass overlords with speed with their hydras, you are starting to see queen drops for tumors at the front lines.
With good reason. The nydus network alone cost 150/200 and a subsequent 100/100 for every nydus worm. It's like a DT rush: a significant gas investment that relies on surprise to be effective. Are you surprised that most Zerg players are not particularly confident in such tactics at the moment?
He's discussing the hydra's role within Zerg unit composition, and he believes that it does not inhabit a unique role worthy of recognition. "Buffing" may not solve the issue.
On March 09 2011 08:59 Belial88 wrote:Why don't you use unit tester and see how the hydra works with creep, and without. You'll realize they just aren't being used correctly, as cliche as that might sound. We are also seeing a similar metagame change with the hellion - no longer used as a quick build 2 against Zerg (or 5 for crazy reactor instead of blue flame!!11!) for harassment and then never make them again. Instead, now we are seeing them used aggressively against Protoss with the new emergence of mech, which is still in it's infantile stages (take iNControl vs DDE) as well as in TvT, with the many recent games with TLO, IMMVP, Jinro, etc... where Hellions are extremely useful, not just in a early timing attack (a trend started about 2 months ago) but in full combat.
Hellion play is evolving in response to current trends in TvT and PvT play, not because people "figured out how to use them".
On March 09 2011 08:59 Belial88 wrote:Ravens, Archons, Motherships, infestors, phoenixes, carriers even (PainUser vs Kiwikaki) are all becoming relevant units, but people either don't know how to use them or are just starting to.
Raven, Infestor and Phoenix play were all relevant in the past. Some of them fell out of relevance once the metagame changed in response.
On March 09 2011 09:59 Xova wrote: Maybe I want reapers back. Should I make a post?
Is this how people approach balance (yes, I am using that word) nowadays? He gets to have this, so I should get to have that back?? Why should he get this if I don't get anything?
That is really the most awful way to approach things, as the goal of tweaking the game's mechanics is to have a better and more balanced game, and that is regardless of who gets what in the process. Some races needs more attention, some do not, that's fact.
Maybe I'll want motherships back post patch. I think that the game would benefit from having every unit having a purpose, and I don't think it'd hurt to buff Hydras first. I think the speed upgrade wouldn't hurt. Alternatively, if Blizzard puts lurkers back in once HotS comes out, that could be the needed buff.
I like what idra said about switching roles between hydras and roaches, make hydras cheaper, weaker, faster and able to be made pre-lair, roach can maybe go to 100/25 or remain the same after lair only as a meaty 2nd tier unit, this pretty much makes it so zerg has a reliable safe way of dealing with so much of the strong air builds for example that causes all of these balance problems with zerg early on, instead of tweaking everything else around zerg, just tweak zerg.
On March 09 2011 11:05 junemermaid wrote: HotS will probably address this issue.
But this is the problem, a competitive multiplayer game such as starcraft shouldnt require an expansion to make units viable. This is the entire reason behind zerg QQ regarding various things, all teams should have an approximately equal chance to win at an appoximately similar skill level. (at least in 1's)
I worry that we're pinning too many hopes on HotS. I've heard claims of at least 20 different Zerg tweaks that will "be addressed in HotS." Let's not assume that HotS will rescue us from our race.
On March 09 2011 11:33 zarepath wrote: I worry that we're pinning too many hopes on HotS. I've heard claims of at least 20 different Zerg tweaks that will "be addressed in HotS." Let's not assume that HotS will rescue us from our race.
Only the replacement of Dustin Browder and/or the development team moving away from gimmicks will change that.
Like many ppl have mentioned, it would be more ideal if hydras and roaches switched their tech tree with appropraite nerfs and buffs, but there is prolly no way in hell blizzard will actually make that switch after this game has been released for quiet a bit now.
At this point I hope they can at least provide the speed upgrade and make Zerg more interesting in HotS
Hydra/Roach tech switch was suggested in forums during Beta and blizzard didn't do it. It seems to make a lot of sense but I guess now at this point its too late. Going forward the only role I can see for hydras post mid game is as a unit for dropping/nydusing onto enemy bases to harass since that seems to be the way to use a high dps, slow moving, squishy units. However mutalisk and banelings seem better suited for harassing. So it seems that apart from countering early protoss gateway balls they have very limited use.
It really just makes absolutely no sense to what they did to the Hydralisk the more you look at it. Almost everything in this game got some sort of damage boost and health boost. Yet..
SC1 Hydralisk 80 HP 75 Minerals 25 Gas 1 Supply Tier 1 Availability Range+Speed upgrade available
SC2 Hydralisk 80 HP 100 Minerals 50 Gas 2 Supply Tier 2 Availability Range upgrade available
Granted, it's not completely right to compare the two units, but still by just looking at it, SC2's hydra cost more, uses more supply, available later in the game, and doesn't have a speed upgrade option (not to mention same HP). Granted, their DPS is a bit better, but it doesn't even matter when so many core units just evaporate hydras. Even though SC1 hydra did half damage to small units, they still had the speed to allow them to retreat and to adjust later. So the DPS reduction wasn't a huge deal. Now you basically have to commit to early attacks since it's near impossible to retreat with hydras.
On March 09 2011 11:00 CosmicSpiral wrote:Hydras are good against gateway units, not spectacular. They get countered by forcefields, Guardian Shield, blink play.
Blink play is absolutely slaughtered by hydras, even with superb micro. This has been seen in the GSL more than once. Hydras kill stalkers too quickly to even blink them back. Don't spread lies sir. Idra scrap station can't remember the opponent or GSL as one example. I know there are more. Your choice is to blink before a stalker takes damage or after a stalker is dead(obviously this doesn't work).
On March 09 2011 10:29 Rucky wrote:you're limiting micro to dancing...that's as obvious as saying you shouldn't micro against a photon cannon.
speed increase allows your hydras to move in and out of battle as well as dash in to harass expansions and run away reasonably quick. you can choose your fights and not be committed with the attack. because they are so expensive and low in hp, if you can at least run away with them, you can have them fight a better battle later on.
now here's a little bit of a micro lesson as well. if you can pull your hydras back more quickly than now, the enemy will have to 1) stop attacking your hydras and attack the tanking roaches OR 2) chase your hydras. In 1) you can then attack with your hydras high dps and in 2) your roaches will get free shots at the enemy.
Squishiness can be compensated with more health or speed and micro.
Two answers to choose from but one increases the dynamics of the game while the other just adds another A move unit to the game.
If you are in a battle and you micro back your hydras so the collossi are forced to kill roaches... so what? What use is a DPS unit that is not DPSing? He will burn down your roaches, and then a-move to victory as your now tankless hydras attempt to defend your expo only to die instantly.
Zerg cannot harass expansions with such expensive units. Forcefields are the ultimate defense; they don't care how fast you move and if the toss uses them properly you WILL lose the majority of your force. Even roaches (who are pretty fast) cannot pick and choose fights with P; if you get in range to where that is a choice you are in range of getting your army cut in half. Zerg harassing P's structures is usually done via doom drops (which don't care about your hydra speed), after crushing a deathball (in which case you have already won; you could harass with drones for all it matters at that point) or with crazily fast, cheap units (speedling runby, formerly muta harass but we don't see those much anymore). Harassing a terran expo with ground units is kind of a joke as well.
Keep in mind I didn't say that buffing hydra speed would be a bad thing... I said it wouldn't be enough to give hydras a real role based on the current ZvT or ZvP trends.
I feel alot of the units in Starcraft 2 don't fit the "ideal" role that they were designed for, and the hydra is one of them. I just feel like when I play against Z roaches are a much more cost effective unit and Hydras die too fast to do any damage. They definitely need some tweaking but some of the people here are freaking out too much about it.
On March 09 2011 11:05 junemermaid wrote: HotS will probably address this issue.
But this is the problem, a competitive multiplayer game such as starcraft shouldnt require an expansion to make units viable. This is the entire reason behind zerg QQ regarding various things, all teams should have an approximately equal chance to win at an appoximately similar skill level. (at least in 1's)
Yes, but it is very hard for the balance team to extrapolate where the meta-game six months in the future. As it was, the hydra was getting a lot of screen time in ZvZ/P during beta & post release.
If it continues to get less usage, I would hope the balance team would remedy this eventually, either by making a real niche for the hydra that fits in with the zerg theme or editing its role significantly with an expansion. However, keep in mind that this is probably the only zerg unit that has this problem (of being "worthless"... well not worthless, but very limited in scope and use). All other units have a large role they play.
Compare this with Terran (BC, Reaper) and Protoss (Mothership, Carrier), and its not such a bleak picture.
On March 09 2011 13:09 WickedBit wrote: Hydra/Roach tech switch was suggested in forums during Beta and blizzard didn't do it. It seems to make a lot of sense but I guess now at this point its too late. Going forward the only role I can see for hydras post mid game is as a unit for dropping/nydusing onto enemy bases to harass since that seems to be the way to use a high dps, slow moving, squishy units. However mutalisk and banelings seem better suited for harassing. So it seems that apart from countering early protoss gateway balls they have very limited use.
No it doesn't make sense. ZvZ would become baneling wars, there would be no unit to counter them as Hydras are light. ZvT you would have no early unit to stop early reapers or early hellions. And yes, there are some decent reaper openings that can cripple zerg if he doesn't open roaches. ZvP, 4 gate would own zergs without making lots of spine crawlers, roaches are absolutely needed to fend off a 4 gate.
Also, Zerg has Queens at T1 for AA why do they need hydras at T1? It makes no sense, air builds would become pointless and I don't think that's fair. Changing tech trees is not needed to balance this game, if anything it would introduce more problems. There needs to be a simple change, like giving Hydra the +1 range upgrade automatically or giving them a speed upgrade.
On March 09 2011 13:45 cHaNg-sTa wrote: It really just makes absolutely no sense to what they did to the Hydralisk the more you look at it. Almost everything in this game got some sort of damage boost and health boost. Yet..
SC1 Hydralisk 80 HP 75 Minerals 25 Gas 1 Supply Tier 1 Availability Range+Speed upgrade available
SC2 Hydralisk 80 HP 100 Minerals 50 Gas 2 Supply Tier 2 Availability Range upgrade available
Granted, it's not completely right to compare the two units, but still by just looking at it, SC2's hydra cost more, uses more supply, available later in the game, and doesn't have a speed upgrade option (not to mention same HP). Granted, their DPS is a bit better, but it doesn't even matter when so many core units just evaporate hydras. Even though SC1 hydra did half damage to small units, they still had the speed to allow them to retreat and to adjust later. So the DPS reduction wasn't a huge deal. Now you basically have to commit to early attacks since it's near impossible to retreat with hydras.
i believe you are forgetting a few things. sc2 hydralisk more dps free speed upgrade (overlords can spread creep at tier 2, no upgrade required) light armor class meaning it takes less damage from marauders, stalkers, immortals etc. compared to roaches)
i suppose to build on this because people will still complain. more dps compared to sc1 version. get the overlord speed upgrade (100/100), drop creep, and set on move command on top of hydras. they will follow hydras around dropping creep whenever the hydra stops giving it a speed bonus. i used to see it all the time in beta, but people have lost their creativity :/
On March 09 2011 13:45 cHaNg-sTa wrote: It really just makes absolutely no sense to what they did to the Hydralisk the more you look at it. Almost everything in this game got some sort of damage boost and health boost. Yet..
SC1 Hydralisk 80 HP 75 Minerals 25 Gas 1 Supply Tier 1 Availability Range+Speed upgrade available
SC2 Hydralisk 80 HP 100 Minerals 50 Gas 2 Supply Tier 2 Availability Range upgrade available
Granted, it's not completely right to compare the two units, but still by just looking at it, SC2's hydra cost more, uses more supply, available later in the game, and doesn't have a speed upgrade option (not to mention same HP). Granted, their DPS is a bit better, but it doesn't even matter when so many core units just evaporate hydras. Even though SC1 hydra did half damage to small units, they still had the speed to allow them to retreat and to adjust later. So the DPS reduction wasn't a huge deal. Now you basically have to commit to early attacks since it's near impossible to retreat with hydras.
i believe you are forgetting a few things. sc2 hydralisk more dps free speed upgrade (overlords can spread creep at tier 2, no upgrade required) light armor class meaning it takes less damage from marauders, stalkers, immortals etc. compared to roaches)
i suppose to build on this because people will still complain. more dps compared to sc1 version. get the overlord speed upgrade (100/100), drop creep, and set on move command on top of hydras. they will follow hydras around dropping creep whenever the hydra stops giving it a speed bonus. i used to see it all the time in beta, but people have lost their creativity :/
I already mentioned how SC2 Hydra has more dps and that doesn't come close to outweighing the disadvantages the hydras have now. And trust me, people would rather have a speed upgrade rather than having overlords move around the map with the hydra and dropping creep. It's kinda silly to state that it's a "free speed upgrade" when you need to upgrade overlord speed, adjust them on the battle field which is limited in area, hard to position creep well, and not to mention just putting overlords at risk in general.
SC1 hydra also took less damage from dragoons, firebats, vultures, etc. So.. I don't think it's really much of a difference. Not to mention the option to morph into a Lurker.
Replace Hydras with Lurkers, or give them some free burrow tech, and make Fungal Growth unstackable (i.e., once you catch units in a FG, ya can't cast another one). Mostly because it is a stun and its damage is very strong at the moment.
On March 09 2011 13:45 cHaNg-sTa wrote: It really just makes absolutely no sense to what they did to the Hydralisk the more you look at it. Almost everything in this game got some sort of damage boost and health boost. Yet..
Granted, it's not completely right to compare the two units, but still by just looking at it, SC2's hydra cost more, uses more supply, available later in the game, and doesn't have a speed upgrade option (not to mention same HP). Granted, their DPS is a bit better, but it doesn't even matter when so many core units just evaporate hydras. Even though SC1 hydra did half damage to small units, they still had the speed to allow them to retreat and to adjust later. So the DPS reduction wasn't a huge deal. Now you basically have to commit to early attacks since it's near impossible to retreat with hydras.
What game are you talking about here? Because it isn't SC2. Most units do less damage than their BW counterparts, marines do less dps, zerglings do less dps, stalkers do less dps than dragoons, tanks do half damage and cost more gas and supply. The list goes on. "Almost everything in this game got some sort of damage boost and health boost" is a completely false statement. The Hydra is one of the few units that actually did get a significant boost.
SC2 hydras are faster, do more dps (as much as 3x to small/light units) and have more range than their BW version. That is a pretty considerable buff. Note that I said FASTER. Hydras on creep are faster than BW hydras with the speed upgrade.
Then you have the roach as the lair tech replacement unit that is better in every single way to the BW hydra except it can't shoot air. Why would anyone ever make hydras if they had BW stats when you can make a roach with almost double the hp, armour, is faster, regenerates hp faster and can move while burrowed when upgraded? The only time is when you need a dedicated ground unit with anti-air, which the SC2 hydra is better at in every way to it's BW counterpart.
I have been saying this even when I was playing beta. Id much rather see a lower tier, lower cost (food and mineral), faster (with upgrade), and less damage hydra. Mobility is huge and when they are such a huge investment its hard to mass / resupply. I also like having the option of having some mobile AA while still on hatch tech. Terran have marines and toss don't expand early so can spend some extra minerals on tech to stalker.
Hydras will fall out of use because for gas, infest/muta/banes/roachs are typically a better gas investment. Really don't see a need for them except to perhaps defend some early gate tech, but id rather just roach/ling it any way.
On March 09 2011 13:45 cHaNg-sTa wrote: It really just makes absolutely no sense to what they did to the Hydralisk the more you look at it. Almost everything in this game got some sort of damage boost and health boost. Yet..
Granted, it's not completely right to compare the two units, but still by just looking at it, SC2's hydra cost more, uses more supply, available later in the game, and doesn't have a speed upgrade option (not to mention same HP). Granted, their DPS is a bit better, but it doesn't even matter when so many core units just evaporate hydras. Even though SC1 hydra did half damage to small units, they still had the speed to allow them to retreat and to adjust later. So the DPS reduction wasn't a huge deal. Now you basically have to commit to early attacks since it's near impossible to retreat with hydras.
What game are you talking about here? Because it isn't SC2. Most units do less damage than their BW counterparts, marines do less dps, zerglings do less dps, stalkers do less dps than dragoons, tanks do half damage and cost more gas and supply. The list goes on. "Almost everything in this game got some sort of damage boost and health boost" is a completely false statement. The Hydra is one of the few units that actually did get a significant boost.
SC2 hydras are faster, do more dps (as much as 3x to small/light units) and have more range than their BW version. That is a pretty considerable buff. Note that I said FASTER. Hydras on creep are faster than BW hydras with the speed upgrade.
Then you have the roach as the lair tech replacement unit that is better in every single way to the BW hydra except it can't shoot air. Why would anyone ever make hydras if they had BW stats when you can make a roach with almost double the hp, armour, is faster, regenerates hp faster and can move while burrowed when upgraded? The only time is when you need a dedicated ground unit with anti-air, which the SC2 hydra is better at in every way to it's BW counterpart.
I'm fairly certain marines/zealots got a dps buff from bw, not to mention new units such as marauders, banshee which out dps all terran bw units, thors/immortals which outdpsed EVERY UNIT in bw, turrets which got a huuuuuuuge dps increase. And that's only the terran units - the point is in sc2 all damages are inflated, so the hydra's dps increase isn't even that significant.
I was recently thinking about why hydras are so weak and ways to improve them, and it got me thinking about how lings work, 6 slow lings vs 6 speedlings, the speed ones will win every time. So I was thinking how this would affect a ranged unit, obviously the speed will help give an advantage, being able to surround quicker is huge but i didn't think it would be so imbalanced. (not the game but speed vs non speed)
As you can see in small numbers the Hydra speed has very little effect, but in larger numbers the effect is so huge it almost doesn't seem fair. Now obviously a fast unit doesn't mean good and slow mean bad, but speed is a massive factor for how effect big armies are.
So decide for yourself should hydra get a speed boost? Should they get a DPS buff? Should they stay the same? What do you think of hydras in their current sta
there is a good point that speed allows units to get in position for that concave better/faster which is pretty huge, but your video doesnt really fairly demonstrate it. the hydras off of creep were never told to attack/attack-move/move, which isnt fair as the hydras on creep all were moved first into decent position then told to attack (at like 0:53) while the other hydras were just sitting there, some not even responding at all for a little bit.
One of my main problems with the unit itself, putting aside its strength/balance.. is just the overall design. If you're going to give an attack unit zero abilities/features, you should design the unit so there is some room for good control to improve the use of it, as well as the unit role itself should make some sense and fit with the game. But if you look at all of its stats, the slow move really limits possibilities for micro, but this in of itself is not a problem..look back at BW where some of the best unit designs came from immobile units that really enhanced gameplay and map features/control, like the lurker, siege tank, reaver (though obviously those are extremely immobile). but the frailty of the hydra, combined with a very fast attack plus bad animation/lack of instant missile (marines can be move-microed very well cus of their good attack animation/instant missile) also really limits the potential for good micro/hydra dancing. i dunno it's annoying and not fun to try to micro hydras effectively compared to most units in the game, tho there of course is a bit of improvement you can add by adding some control over just a-moving.
On March 09 2011 15:52 Zelniq wrote: there is a good point that speed allows units to get in position for that concave better/faster which is pretty huge, but your video doesnt really fairly demonstrate it. the hydras off of creep were never told to attack/attack-move/move, which isnt fair as the hydras on creep all were moved first into decent position then told to attack (at like 0:53) while the other hydras were just sitting there, some not even responding at all for a little bit.
I agree but I couldn't figure out how to control both sides in the map editor
The switch from hydras into a t2 unit (coming from a BW zerg) was completely baffling.
I disliked the roach as a unit (keep in mind this was the 1 food 2 armor stupid health regen beta roach) so much that I went terran.
I think the hydra needs to be worked back into a T1.5 unit and the roach switched to t2 (with obvious rebalancing) and the hydra needs a slow, 150/150 lair tech speed upgrade. Even as a terran player, I think zerg deserve that. I'm getting really sick of ling/bling/muta or roach/bling or roach/infestor. They just seem so uninspired as a gameplay mechanic, much like the protoss death ball. The roach was an interesting unit in beta. Now it's just a retarded version of a marauder.
As it is (since we'll never see the above happen) I think the hydra is just underappreciated. Sky terran/sky protoss builds haven't been thoroughly explored, and the hydra is the hard counter to both of those things. Right now, I'm not in favor of changing anything that doesn't blatantly break the game (the rax before depot change and reaper speed after factory still pisses me off, despite that I NEVER did either of them) because we simply don't know enough about the metagame to make these kinds of arguments. But gamers whine more loudly than any other force on the planet, so there's not much I can do about that.
I think hydra should get a skill called stimulation where they use it and they lose a bit of hp but they move and attack alot faster. Also to increase synergy I think the Overseer should get a variation of the Queen's Infusion where it constantly heals only a little bit of hp using its energy by shooting down overseer vomit (instead of overlord vomit) on a unit.
IMO, two things need to change for Hydra to be viable again.
1) Give them a speed upgrade (150/150), hell even replace the range upgrade if needed 2) Weaken their regular attack, but add +armored damage
Currently Z have strong anti-light units (baneling) and strong tanking units (roach), but NO anti-armored specialized units (before Tier3). Hydras could perhaps fill the role of flanking a stalker ball or sniping off tanks if only they moved faster and had +damage against them, or even be more worthwhile for drops.
I think they'll continue to have a role in ZvP. Roach/Hydra/Corruptor is a very powerful unit composition. If anything, I think a +1 range buff to Corruptors is the only help Hydras need; this would make corrs better at shutting down Colossus play, and Hydras are great anytime Protoss doesn't have a big Colossus count.
On March 09 2011 16:19 Honeybadger wrote: The switch from hydras into a t2 unit (coming from a BW zerg) was completely baffling.
I disliked the roach as a unit (keep in mind this was the 1 food 2 armor stupid health regen beta roach) so much that I went terran.
I think the hydra needs to be worked back into a T1.5 unit and the roach switched to t2 (with obvious rebalancing) and the hydra needs a slow, 150/150 lair tech speed upgrade. Even as a terran player, I think zerg deserve that. I'm getting really sick of ling/bling/muta or roach/bling or roach/infestor. They just seem so uninspired as a gameplay mechanic, much like the protoss death ball. The roach was an interesting unit in beta. Now it's just a retarded version of a marauder.
As it is (since we'll never see the above happen) I think the hydra is just underappreciated. Sky terran/sky protoss builds haven't been thoroughly explored, and the hydra is the hard counter to both of those things. Right now, I'm not in favor of changing anything that doesn't blatantly break the game (the rax before depot change and reaper speed after factory still pisses me off, despite that I NEVER did either of them) because we simply don't know enough about the metagame to make these kinds of arguments. But gamers whine more loudly than any other force on the planet, so there's not much I can do about that.
unfortunately blizzard has a problem with listening to the wrong whiners.
i remember back in the 5 rax reaper days i posted somewhere that all blizzard needed to do was increase the range of the roach.... but no they completely removed reaper speed (effectively) and THEN increased roach range....
and unfortunately i fear that in the case of the hydra. they will listen to the wrong whiners and then tip the scale of the hydra so far in the other way that it becomes obsolete, but in a different way.
but knowing blizzard from past patches. they are more likely to just nerf or remove stuff instead of buffing it or changing it....
but then again with the new infestor idea, they turned the infestor a unit that controls space through stun (lack of a better word) into a dps caster..... leaving us with only one unit for controling space the muta.
but nothing will ever reach as low as the supply barracks change.
seems like blizzard just doesnt know what to do with the game right now. the changes to some units and the lack of changes to some units are just baffling.
back on topic though. the hydra as i have posted in the thread earlier. just doesnt fit zerg. only time they are built is for fancy offtiming attacks, wierd all ins, funky stuff and the such.
the hydra for zerg is like the reaper atm for terran. gimmicky and there is always a better unit to replace it
I have been finding the Hydra a little more useless as people have been figuring out how to stop it. This is quite unfortunate because the Hydralisk was a great unit in concept. High range, aerial and ground attack with high ROF. It worked well. A group of hydras can down almost ANY air based unit with ease in appropriate scale, and suffer minimal loss. They are also very good against a Colossus IF there's something to tank the damage, and hoping the Protoss is doing a 1a attack pattern. In any event, I noticed more wins with less hydra, replacing Hydralisks for Mustalisks in many cases seemed to perform the task to my desire. If they cost 100 gas a piece, it would be a little more viable a solution. Right now, Baneling landmine on Protoss helps a lot versus colossi. Against a Terran player who's using Vikings, I still find Hydralisk a viable unit, but not in the same volume as I used to. Hydra's are nice, but they're weak. They have great DPS, and could stand a small upgrade in the health or defence department. At +3 armour to ground level units, they become a little more useful, but ideally you don't want a match played as Zerg to go on that long anyway, it's just setting yourself up for a VERY difficult win, or a very simple loss.
unfortunately blizzard has a problem with listening to the wrong whiners.
i remember back in the 5 rax reaper days i posted somewhere that all blizzard needed to do was increase the range of the roach.... but no they completely removed reaper speed (effectively) and THEN increased roach range....
and unfortunately i fear that in the case of the hydra. they will listen to the wrong whiners and then tip the scale of the hydra so far in the other way that it becomes obsolete, but in a different way.
but knowing blizzard from past patches. they are more likely to just nerf or remove stuff instead of buffing it or changing it....
but then again with the new infestor idea, they turned the infestor a unit that controls space through stun (lack of a better word) into a dps caster..... leaving us with only one unit for controling space the muta.
but nothing will ever reach as low as the supply barracks change.
seems like blizzard just doesnt know what to do with the game right now. the changes to some units and the lack of changes to some units are just baffling.
back on topic though. the hydra as i have posted in the thread earlier. just doesnt fit zerg. only time they are built is for fancy offtiming attacks, wierd all ins, funky stuff and the such.
the hydra for zerg is like the reaper atm for terran. gimmicky and there is always a better unit to replace it
Agreed. Squeakiest wheels get the kick. I remember when Tseric (a WoW forum admin) went insane and quit his job because of all the insane nerdrage directed at him from shamans.
Funnily enough, The reaper is so unexpected in tvz that I actually still win games with the odd rushed factory 4RR speed. zergs that don't expect 12 reapers in their main can suddenly be having a very, very bad day. It's so gimmicky that it can win games because of how retarded it is as a standard opener. Which makes me sad. I LOVED the reaper. But I'm not giving up on it (like I don't think zergs should give up on hydras) and am working in reaper timings in mid/lategame to build a quick deathball that hunts expos. 5 3/3 reapers wrecks a mineral line so fast it isn't even funny.
As it is, the hydra is still the king of ground based anti-air next to the marine.
And I really hope the hydra starts to take some prevalence in the whole "build 41 mutalisks, win game" notion. My one major squeak is that hunter seeker missile, our primary muta counter in beta, is completely useless in that role. when 30 mutas are rolling around your bases, one thor, two turrets and six marines in each mineral line just can't do it. Right now I'm somewhat pidgeonholed into hardcore mech (thor/hellion) vs zerg, and the hydra is the only thing that gives zerg a chance of defending.
i get the feeling that hydras are taking on the same role as the carrier is in SC2 its a great unit but doesn't have its place in the race right now. horrible comparison i know but god knows i'll support any hydra support thread such a cool unit that doesn't have a place in the game right now
id really like to see something done with the unit, its so hard countered by colossi yet so useful in zvp right now it makes it a very stressful matchup for me. The unit obviously should be shit to the colossi but not to the extent as it is, id like to see something done with either the colossi or the hydra.
I have a small theory, and it comes from the business perspective of Blizzard: They hear the community, but they have their hands tied.
They're expected to come out with this huge 'zerg-centric' expansion, so they need content; they need something big so their consumers have a reason to buy their product. (because, let's face it: Their story-line's not going to be bringing in any fresh new faces above the age of 12)
They have a plan and a general mindset to re-balance and re-design the zerg race and playstyle, but they can't release it. Assuming they did release this big zerg re-design, what does that leave them as far as content for the expansion? From a business perspective, they'd be shooting themselves in the foot.
So... that's all hypothetical, but something to think about. Even if Blizzard plans to make these changes proposed in this thread, they probably won't be too inclined to, and may have to wait til the next expansion to take any serious action.
As it stands now, the game works; the mechanics and playstyles are being figured out, so the game's starting to stagnate a little, but I feel that myself, and the rest of the zerg community have a lot to look forward to with the next coming expansion.
My main objection is how slow hydras are off creep. I don't even mind so much how little hp they have I just want them to be viable units to attack with on the larger four player maps.
I still use them for my ZvP but agree they are crappy in ZvT and ZvZ. I like to get an early expansion up with two queens, start my lair then at around 36 I crank out a lot of speedlings. I use those to slow down warp gates or on maps with rocks use them to take those out. After my lair is done I get my hydra den ASAP, and if I have enough drones I build evolution chambers (for upgrades obviously, 2 or most of the time 3) and my 3rd and 4th gas. I get some hydras out and take my third unless I'm under pressure. Once my third is up I usually start my spire to make mutalisks to snipe the colossus.
Many games I run into the issue of not pressuring the protoss once I have a large enough hydra force. They are way to slow off creep to attack head on especially once colossus are out. I find myself relying on drops and zergling/mutaslisk harass, but find drops very difficult to perform.
If all works out I'm applying harassment to all sides of the protoss base while they are on two bases still. I have trouble with 4 warpgates at times, but I think that is mainly when I don't get my lair or hydra den up when i should. Most of my losses from this build are when I get too passive with my hydras due to how slow they are without creep. I think maybe the best thing I could do is try more nydus or get a queen & overlord dedicated to just spreading creep.
The key use of hydras I found is for a stepping stone to get your third base up really fast. A bunch of 10+ hydras can destroy some huge pushes until Colossus start showing up. Plus you should have some speedlings around to counter attack the Protoss mineral line. I hope that helps you feel a little better about the hydra.
On March 09 2011 16:31 teamsolid wrote: IMO, two things need to change for Hydra to be viable again.
1) Give them a speed upgrade (150/150), hell even replace the range upgrade if needed
In honesty I don't think actually giving the unit a speed upgrade will make THAT much of a difference. Yeah I know they are frustrating as hell off creep BUT...
...I think instead of buffing the speed of Hydras, Blizzard should actually buff the speed of creep spread.
If they made creep spread faster but also disappear faster to keep balance i suppose then that would help zerg MORE then just an individual unit buff.
But yeah keep the creep tumor time the same but increase the spread time.
1 - Hydra is slow as shit off-creep, and only barely respectable on-creep. It's slower than a slow-roach off creep!
2 - Hydra has 80 HP for a 2 supply, 150 resource unit. As far as units without spells go, only Dark Templar have a worse resource-HP ratio. EVEN WORKERS ARE BETTER. As such, once hydras are starting to take serious damage, the zerg starts being incredibly cost inefficient, even though the hydras have good dps.
3 - For being relatively "immobile" Hydralisks lack the range that makes it worthwhile to suffer immobility. 5 range, 6 with a somewhat expensive upgrade. And yet, it's the longest range unit zerg except for Brood Lords.
4 - Because of this immobility, hydralisks struggle to fulfill even the most basic function of an "Anti-Air unit." Example - in ZVZ the most effective response to mutalisks isn't hydralisks, but infestor queen. Hydralisks don't actually KILL the mutalisks (the mutas just run) and they don't really let you push out of your base, either, because of their slowness. Phoenix showcase this even worse - you have to have large packs of hydras to stop phoenix harass because otherwise they all get picked up and they die quite fast to phoenix's anti-light fire.
5 - "But their DPS is so good!" Yeah. It's good. But then you look at marines, and you wonder why Zerg has marines that cost gas, are tier 2, don't have stimpacks or combat shield, have less movement speed, and have less HP per resource and per DPS. But +1 range! Which costs more than stimpack or combat shield to research! Oh, hydras benefit less from attack upgrades than marines, too.
Hydralisks need a redesign or they'll fall into total disuse. Currently they're only used in ZVP SOMETIMES, though I think we're going to see more and more sticking to roaches, and looking to queens and spire units to fill the need to shoot up, even in ZVP.
I was recently thinking about why hydras are so weak and ways to improve them, and it got me thinking about how lings work, 6 slow lings vs 6 speedlings, the speed ones will win every time. So I was thinking how this would affect a ranged unit, obviously the speed will help give an advantage, being able to surround quicker is huge but i didn't think it would be so imbalanced. (not the game but speed vs non speed)
As you can see in small numbers the Hydra speed has very little effect, but in larger numbers the effect is so huge it almost doesn't seem fair. Now obviously a fast unit doesn't mean good and slow mean bad, but speed is a massive factor for how effect big armies are.
So decide for yourself should hydra get a speed boost? Should they get a DPS buff? Should they stay the same? What do you think of hydras in their current state?
Holy cow. I knew their awful speed was a problem, but that's a bigger problem than I imagined.
I really don't like hydras at all in ZvP even though roach hydra feels like the most solid unit comp. I've been trying out alll sorts of builds on ladder and I think a decent alternative to roach hydra is a roach bling composition with bling drops, getting corrupters when necessary. I think that might be a feasable alternative because you can use the extra gas to focus on upgrades, drop harass his minerall line, be annoying with your roaches attacking multiple places at once, force forcefields better than roach/hydra and remax pretty much instantly while constantly whittling down their ball and being annoying. I really don't like playing aggressively but you just can't let tosses get their collosus/ht/blink/VR ball of death. personally I hope hydras do get phased out in pro play for more interesting compositions.
On March 09 2011 17:25 sylverfyre wrote: 1 - Hydra is slow as shit off-creep, and only barely respectable on-creep. It's slower than a slow-roach off creep!
don't spread misinformation Roach and Hydra have the same speed off creep (2.25)
that is the same speed as Zealot,Immortal,Colossus,Voidray,Sentry only units that are faster on protoss ground is stalker,upgraded zealot and dark templar.
(and this is ofcourse compared off creep, on creep Z is always faster then what P can offer)
So get more queens and spread creep as hell if that is the problem.
On March 09 2011 13:45 cHaNg-sTa wrote: It really just makes absolutely no sense to what they did to the Hydralisk the more you look at it. Almost everything in this game got some sort of damage boost and health boost. Yet..
SC1 Hydralisk 80 HP 75 Minerals 25 Gas 1 Supply Tier 1 Availability Range+Speed upgrade available
SC2 Hydralisk 80 HP 100 Minerals 50 Gas 2 Supply Tier 2 Availability Range upgrade available
Granted, it's not completely right to compare the two units, but still by just looking at it, SC2's hydra cost more, uses more supply, available later in the game, and doesn't have a speed upgrade option (not to mention same HP). Granted, their DPS is a bit better, but it doesn't even matter when so many core units just evaporate hydras. Even though SC1 hydra did half damage to small units, they still had the speed to allow them to retreat and to adjust later. So the DPS reduction wasn't a huge deal. Now you basically have to commit to early attacks since it's near impossible to retreat with hydras.
This. Also the ability to mass units fast is what zerg made zerg tho... Now Terran can swarm better with marines then Zerg can with Roach/Hydra
What about giving them that +1 range naturally, and changing the range upgrade into a speed upgrade?
They're just way too damn slow. And you can't have a speed and a range upgrade, or else things just get silly. You already need THREE upgrades just to give roaches burrow movement, which just doesn't seem very elegant at all.
I still don't feel this fixes the problem though. Zerg needs a nice T1.5 1-supply unit that can form part of a core army, like the marine.
Zerg is supposed to be able to mass units, but aside from Zerglings there's really nothing to give that swarmy feel.
On March 09 2011 17:25 sylverfyre wrote: 1 - Hydra is slow as shit off-creep, and only barely respectable on-creep. It's slower than a slow-roach off creep!
don't spread misinformation Roach and Hydra have the same speed off creep (2.25)
that is the same speed as Zealot,Immortal,Colossus,Voidray,Sentry only units that are faster on protoss ground is stalker,upgraded zealot and dark templar.
(and this is ofcourse compared off creep, on creep Z is always faster then what P can offer)
So get more queens and spread creep as hell if that is the problem.
Don't spread incomplete information. Roaches will always have the speed upgraded researched, and with that will be much faster off creep than hydras.
And of course it's easy spreading creep with more queens. But it's just as easy for a competent opponent to nullify creep spread.
I disagree completely, I feel like the Hydra is actually becoming more relevant, you simply need creep, and there have been too many games to name in the recent GSL and sc2casts.com where hydras are becoming the key unit. Take elfi vs Dimaga for a most recent example of how amazing hydras are, they just need to be used correctly. And note that hydras are actually pretty quick units when on creep, allowing for flanking even.
The hydra was never broken, it really did come down to metagame - players before didn't grasp the full importance of creep. Just look at any GSL game of a Zerg in season 1, to the current season. Even Idra and Nestea rarely spread creep farther than a single tumor from the expansion. And we haven't even seen major Nydus usage yet, with a few games here and there really underlying the amazing possibilities they open up (hopetorture vs fruitdealer)
Buffs of 10-15hp were tried in the beta, and it was broken. The hydra is a perfectly fine unit, people just didn't realize creep was so important. Now, people are beginning to move mass overlords with speed with their hydras, you are starting to see queen drops for tumors at the front lines.
Why don't you use unit tester and see how the hydra works with creep, and without. You'll realize they just aren't being used correctly, as cliche as that might sound. We are also seeing a similar metagame change with the hellion - no longer used as a quick build 2 against Zerg (or 5 for crazy reactor instead of blue flame!!11!) for harassment and then never make them again. Instead, now we are seeing them used aggressively against Protoss with the new emergence of mech, which is still in it's infantile stages (take iNControl vs DDE) as well as in TvT, with the many recent games with TLO, IMMVP, Jinro, etc... where Hellions are extremely useful, not just in a early timing attack (a trend started about 2 months ago) but in full combat.
We are also seeing phoenixes change in the metagame, and the recent patch did nothing to change balance (besides in PvZ) but did everything to encourage further investigation into the unit. Spoiler Alert regarding GSL March: + Show Spoiler +
Jinro even stated that if HongUnPrime goes phoenixes, he will lose, and gasp, what happened
. Even in PvP we are seeing more phoenix usage (TLO vs Zeerax), two matchups where phoenixes used to be non-existent.
So I think the Original Post is completely wrong, and off. Just because when YOU use the unit you fail, doesn't mean it needs to be buffed. Maybe you aren't playing the unit correctly, and you should look to see if there is any way that unit could be used well. Take the reaper - while recent 'nerfs' have served to limit it's application, the reaper still has it's use and is extremely powerful at specific times. Some units are more niche than others; the marine will always be seen as too powerful because of its resourcefulness. And a unit may not be designed to be an end-all be all, some units are there because they can be used for very specific timing attacks other races have a hard time dealing with. Every unit has a time and place - if you think your unit is trash, learn at what game time it isn't. If you think your unit is weak, learn what engagement it is strongest in.
Ravens, Archons, Motherships, infestors, phoenixes, carriers even (PainUser vs Kiwikaki) are all becoming relevant units, but people either don't know how to use them or are just starting to.
I disagree completely, I feel like the Hydra is actually becoming more relevant, you simply need creep, and there have been too many games to name in the recent GSL and sc2casts.com where hydras are becoming the key unit. Take elfi vs Dimaga for a most recent example of how amazing hydras are, they just need to be used correctly. And note that hydras are actually pretty quick units when on creep, allowing for flanking even.
The hydra was never broken, it really did come down to metagame - players before didn't grasp the full importance of creep. Just look at any GSL game of a Zerg in season 1, to the current season. Even Idra and Nestea rarely spread creep farther than a single tumor from the expansion. And we haven't even seen major Nydus usage yet, with a few games here and there really underlying the amazing possibilities they open up (hopetorture vs fruitdealer)
Buffs of 10-15hp were tried in the beta, and it was broken. The hydra is a perfectly fine unit, people just didn't realize creep was so important. Now, people are beginning to move mass overlords with speed with their hydras, you are starting to see queen drops for tumors at the front lines.
Why don't you use unit tester and see how the hydra works with creep, and without. You'll realize they just aren't being used correctly, as cliche as that might sound. We are also seeing a similar metagame change with the hellion - no longer used as a quick build 2 against Zerg (or 5 for crazy reactor instead of blue flame!!11!) for harassment and then never make them again. Instead, now we are seeing them used aggressively against Protoss with the new emergence of mech, which is still in it's infantile stages (take iNControl vs DDE) as well as in TvT, with the many recent games with TLO, IMMVP, Jinro, etc... where Hellions are extremely useful, not just in a early timing attack (a trend started about 2 months ago) but in full combat.
We are also seeing phoenixes change in the metagame, and the recent patch did nothing to change balance (besides in PvZ) but did everything to encourage further investigation into the unit. Spoiler Alert regarding GSL March: + Show Spoiler +
Jinro even stated that if HongUnPrime goes phoenixes, he will lose, and gasp, what happened
. Even in PvP we are seeing more phoenix usage (TLO vs Zeerax), two matchups where phoenixes used to be non-existent.
So I think the Original Post is completely wrong, and off. Just because when YOU use the unit you fail, doesn't mean it needs to be buffed. Maybe you aren't playing the unit correctly, and you should look to see if there is any way that unit could be used well. Take the reaper - while recent 'nerfs' have served to limit it's application, the reaper still has it's use and is extremely powerful at specific times. Some units are more niche than others; the marine will always be seen as too powerful because of its resourcefulness. And a unit may not be designed to be an end-all be all, some units are there because they can be used for very specific timing attacks other races have a hard time dealing with. Every unit has a time and place - if you think your unit is trash, learn at what game time it isn't. If you think your unit is weak, learn what engagement it is strongest in.
Ravens, Archons, Motherships, infestors, phoenixes, carriers even (PainUser vs Kiwikaki) are all becoming relevant units, but people either don't know how to use them or are just starting to.
qft
Why do you quote your own posts?
Creep or no creep hydra still weak. No matter if you have creep or not it will die in seconds vs. storms, collosi, marines, tanks, etc.
What you just said is: "Hydra is completely fine, just learn to spread creep". Have you ever played vs. opponents who do not allow you to spread creap? I mean you are happily spreading creep all over the map and then suddenly 3 stimmed marines comes and with 2 good scans clears every creep tumor you put in last 10 minutes.
It's too expensive for what your recieve in return. Then again it's not the first unit in sc2 nerfed to basically useless status either , look at reapers post supply before barrack/factory speed upgrade change or voids rays post speed removal.
On March 09 2011 20:42 Alpina wrote: What you just said is: "Hydra is completely fine, just learn to spread creep". Have you ever played vs. opponents who do not allow you to spread creap? I mean you are happily spreading creep all over the map and then suddenly 3 stimmed marines comes and with 2 good scans clears every creep tumor you put in last 10 minutes.
Just tell an overlord to follow a Hydra and you get a nice trail of creep following your hydra so whenever it stops to shoot it's got creep under it almost instantly.
It pains me how people harp on about how "easy" SC2 is compared to BW yet can't seem to handle the basic task of controlling overlords along with an army. Those same people crying about how easy it is are the first ones to cry that something is imbalanced and in this case want to just get a speed upgrade for Hydralisks because they can't or don't want to have to properly control creep. It's pathetic.
I would love to see them change the hydra by adding an upgrade that makes the hydra able to attack while burrowed (on creep). As it stands now, the hydra is a a low hit point unit capable of dps, but with no escape ability. Adding the upgrade would also provide variety in the defensive and offensive capability of zerg, which is sorely lacking at the moment.
On March 09 2011 13:45 cHaNg-sTa wrote: It really just makes absolutely no sense to what they did to the Hydralisk the more you look at it. Almost everything in this game got some sort of damage boost and health boost. Yet..
SC1 Hydralisk 80 HP 75 Minerals 25 Gas 1 Supply Tier 1 Availability Range+Speed upgrade available
SC2 Hydralisk 80 HP 100 Minerals 50 Gas 2 Supply Tier 2 Availability Range upgrade available
Granted, it's not completely right to compare the two units, but still by just looking at it, SC2's hydra cost more, uses more supply, available later in the game, and doesn't have a speed upgrade option (not to mention same HP). Granted, their DPS is a bit better, but it doesn't even matter when so many core units just evaporate hydras. Even though SC1 hydra did half damage to small units, they still had the speed to allow them to retreat and to adjust later. So the DPS reduction wasn't a huge deal. Now you basically have to commit to early attacks since it's near impossible to retreat with hydras.
This. Also the ability to mass units fast is what zerg made zerg tho... Now Terran can swarm better with marines then Zerg can with Roach/Hydra
sc1 is 80 hp/75mins/25gas/1supply/10 damage/ 4+1 range / runs at 1.105x worker speed after upgrade ( ~3.1 if by sc2 values )
sc2 is 80hp/100mins/50gas/2supply/12 damage/ 5+1 range / no speed bonus... (more fragile but the dps works out to be the same, but they cost a lot more food and resources... ) 5 hydras ~375 minerals/125 gas, and ~50 damage/5 food and faster, but 4 sc2 hydras ~400 minerals/200 gas at 8 food and ~48 damage +1range, slower
On March 09 2011 18:50 Subversion wrote: What about giving them that +1 range naturally, and changing the range upgrade into a speed upgrade?
I think that is a great idea. Along with a slight health buff, they might be usable again.
I miss the Hydra. I went back and played some BW today, and Nostalgia'd back to my mass Hydra days.... Man it felt good. Too bad I cannot ever make any in Star2 :C. Roaches are just so much better.
i see people writing about "try micro Hydras better" etc etc..but thats bullshit..thats more or less impossible to do with the speed they got atm outside the creep. A protoss will -always- FF hydras and the collosus will finish them off (or HT's). and u cant micro/dodge that with the speed they got atm. I mainly use my Hydras defensivly only just cuz of that.
Creep or no creep hydra still weak. No matter if you have creep or not it will die in seconds vs. storms, collosi, marines, tanks, etc.
Not really. Go into unit tester and try them out. Hydras basically get wrecked by Aoe - in other words, only by 5 units in the entire game. Compare this to marines who are weak against aoe, roaches, stalkers, charlogets, etc. And they aren't particularly weak against marines, just maybe not great. They wreck marauders, thors, all air units, every armored but colosi/siege.
So with your mindset of 'creep or no creep' is pretty telling that you probably just don't know how to use them. Which is okay, not many people do.
What you just said is: "Hydra is completely fine, just learn to spread creep". Have you ever played vs. opponents who do not allow you to spread creap? I mean you are happily spreading creep all over the map and then suddenly 3 stimmed marines comes and with 2 good scans clears every creep tumor you put in last 10 minutes.
Zerg is very hard and intensive to play, no one is saying otherwise to that. You can start your own QQ thread about this in the starcraft2.com forums, but you will generally see high level players build more than 4 queens on 2 base just so they can spread creep.
And how often do you see T actively stop creep below high level games? Terran is losing a mule whereas Zerg is only losing energy (at most, 150 minerals for 1 extra queen which is much less than a mule).
Then again it's not the first unit in sc2 nerfed to basically useless status either , look at reapers post supply before barrack/factory speed upgrade change or voids rays post speed removal.
Reapers aren't useless, we see many 1 rax expand builds using them to great effect (hannibalprime vs ogscezanne g1). Void rays have also been used to great effect (jinro vs ogsmc).
It just sounds like you are raging. There will always be a use for every unit, some units simply just have less situations than others. It doesn't mean they are worse - take burrowed banelings (ogscezanne vs hannibalprime g3).
I quoted my own post because it was so awesome and you didn't respond to it yet.
I disagree completely, I feel like the Hydra is actually becoming more relevant, you simply need creep, and there have been too many games to name in the recent GSL and sc2casts.com where hydras are becoming the key unit. Take elfi vs Dimaga for a most recent example of how amazing hydras are, they just need to be used correctly. And note that hydras are actually pretty quick units when on creep, allowing for flanking even.
The hydra was never broken, it really did come down to metagame - players before didn't grasp the full importance of creep. Just look at any GSL game of a Zerg in season 1, to the current season. Even Idra and Nestea rarely spread creep farther than a single tumor from the expansion. And we haven't even seen major Nydus usage yet, with a few games here and there really underlying the amazing possibilities they open up (hopetorture vs fruitdealer)
Buffs of 10-15hp were tried in the beta, and it was broken. The hydra is a perfectly fine unit, people just didn't realize creep was so important. Now, people are beginning to move mass overlords with speed with their hydras, you are starting to see queen drops for tumors at the front lines.
Why don't you use unit tester and see how the hydra works with creep, and without. You'll realize they just aren't being used correctly, as cliche as that might sound. We are also seeing a similar metagame change with the hellion - no longer used as a quick build 2 against Zerg (or 5 for crazy reactor instead of blue flame!!11!) for harassment and then never make them again. Instead, now we are seeing them used aggressively against Protoss with the new emergence of mech, which is still in it's infantile stages (take iNControl vs DDE) as well as in TvT, with the many recent games with TLO, IMMVP, Jinro, etc... where Hellions are extremely useful, not just in a early timing attack (a trend started about 2 months ago) but in full combat.
We are also seeing phoenixes change in the metagame, and the recent patch did nothing to change balance (besides in PvZ) but did everything to encourage further investigation into the unit. Spoiler Alert regarding GSL March: + Show Spoiler +
Jinro even stated that if HongUnPrime goes phoenixes, he will lose, and gasp, what happened
. Even in PvP we are seeing more phoenix usage (TLO vs Zeerax), two matchups where phoenixes used to be non-existent.
So I think the Original Post is completely wrong, and off. Just because when YOU use the unit you fail, doesn't mean it needs to be buffed. Maybe you aren't playing the unit correctly, and you should look to see if there is any way that unit could be used well. Take the reaper - while recent 'nerfs' have served to limit it's application, the reaper still has it's use and is extremely powerful at specific times. Some units are more niche than others; the marine will always be seen as too powerful because of its resourcefulness. And a unit may not be designed to be an end-all be all, some units are there because they can be used for very specific timing attacks other races have a hard time dealing with. Every unit has a time and place - if you think your unit is trash, learn at what game time it isn't. If you think your unit is weak, learn what engagement it is strongest in.
Ravens, Archons, Motherships, infestors, phoenixes, carriers even (PainUser vs Kiwikaki) are all becoming relevant units, but people either don't know how to use them or are just starting to.
qft
The argument about creep is silly. To spread creep offensively, i.e. right up to your opponent's defenses, will take the greater part of the match. Not to mention with an obs or a Raven, its very easy to annihilate 20 minutes of creep spreading work.
I am all for units getting a BENEFIT from creep, but they shouldn't be so shit off creep that they're actually DEPENDENT on it. Creep is supposed to be a reward, not a requirement.
On March 09 2011 23:55 Subversion wrote: The argument about creep is silly. To spread creep offensively, i.e. right up to your opponent's defenses, will take the greater part of the match. Not to mention with an obs or a Raven, its very easy to annihilate 20 minutes of creep spreading work.
I am all for units getting a BENEFIT from creep, but they shouldn't be so shit off creep that they're actually DEPENDENT on it. Creep is supposed to be a reward, not a requirement.
Who decided that it should be a reward not a requirement? At the highest level of play use of all advantages should be required, that is where the skill comes in.
The other thing is that people are just thinking about creep wrong. They just spread it and leave it instead of having queens and overlords with the army to have creep under the units constantly. Hydras do have a speed upgrade, it's called Pneumatized Carapace, creep on demand.
For a player good enough to actually take advantage of creep Hydras are faster than all the ground units for other races.
Hydras are a unit that takes skill to use properly, can't handle that? Just go play protoss, or just don't make Hydras as zerg, there are no situations where it's required to use mass Hydras. It's that simple. The game mechanics don't need to be dumbed down and made simpler just because not all players can take advantage of creep properly.
The thing people need to realize about the hydra speed is not the speed of the unit compared to other races units, but the speed of the unit compared to the other zerg units.
For example, I've had some success with some nice early ling/hdyra pushes vs. FE toss. However, once I make that initial push I have to only make lings to finish the game off because reinforcing with hydras takes way to long. So there you have this example where zerg requires that reinforcement(really a main thing that defines the race) yet this unit takes forever to get there. It is early game so there isn't going to be the creep highway yet.
It is also a huge pain to do any interesting unit combinations where you have lings at one speed, roaches at another, and hydras falling behind. The units are weak as is and need to be microed(there is no "zerg ball"). So you have these units at all different speeds trying to create flanks/micro and that is failing.
When looking at the other races the general "unit speed movement" seems to have more synergy. The protoss death ball stays clumped easily and all seems to move at the same speed relatively. I know stalkers are faster but it is easy to keep them clumped and move. It doesn't seem challenging as a toss player to keep your death ball as a death ball.
Terran has units at all different speeds but you are usually making more incremental pushes and sieges, so unit speed isn't really an issue for the race.
Then you come to Zerg and the speed of the hydra doesn't fit in with the race. That is really the problem. Quit saying "it is the same speed as the zealot!" The problem with hydra speed is relative to the speed of the rest of the zerg units, not the speed relative to the other units in the game.
I really feel the only reason the hydra is in the game is for BW/SC nostalgia purposes. Because the unit really doesn't fit, seems like little thought was put into it, and what should be a main unit(only ground unit that hits air and ground for zerg) sucks. I really feel like blizzard was like "just put it into the game so that people don't complain that it isn't there." After the next patch the gas for hydras will be much better spent on infestors anyway.
On March 09 2011 22:57 Belial88 wrote: Not really. Go into unit tester and try them out. Hydras basically get wrecked by Aoe - in other words, only by 5 units in the entire game. Compare this to marines who are weak against aoe, roaches, stalkers, charlogets, etc. And they aren't particularly weak against marines, just maybe not great. They wreck marauders, thors, all air units, every armored but colosi/siege.
I don't even know where to begin with how wrong and biased this statement is...
trying to act like the hydra is better than the marine at... anything...
Creep or no creep hydra still weak. No matter if you have creep or not it will die in seconds vs. storms, collosi, marines, tanks, etc.
Not really. Go into unit tester and try them out. Hydras basically get wrecked by Aoe - in other words, only by 5 units in the entire game. Compare this to marines who are weak against aoe, roaches, stalkers, charlogets, etc. And they aren't particularly weak against marines, just maybe not great. They wreck marauders, thors, all air units, every armored but colosi/siege.
So with your mindset of 'creep or no creep' is pretty telling that you probably just don't know how to use them. Which is okay, not many people do.
What you just said is: "Hydra is completely fine, just learn to spread creep". Have you ever played vs. opponents who do not allow you to spread creap? I mean you are happily spreading creep all over the map and then suddenly 3 stimmed marines comes and with 2 good scans clears every creep tumor you put in last 10 minutes.
Zerg is very hard and intensive to play, no one is saying otherwise to that. You can start your own QQ thread about this in the starcraft2.com forums, but you will generally see high level players build more than 4 queens on 2 base just so they can spread creep.
And how often do you see T actively stop creep below high level games? Terran is losing a mule whereas Zerg is only losing energy (at most, 150 minerals for 1 extra queen which is much less than a mule).
Then again it's not the first unit in sc2 nerfed to basically useless status either , look at reapers post supply before barrack/factory speed upgrade change or voids rays post speed removal.
Reapers aren't useless, we see many 1 rax expand builds using them to great effect (hannibalprime vs ogscezanne g1). Void rays have also been used to great effect (jinro vs ogsmc).
It just sounds like you are raging. There will always be a use for every unit, some units simply just have less situations than others. It doesn't mean they are worse - take burrowed banelings (ogscezanne vs hannibalprime g3).
I quoted my own post because it was so awesome and you didn't respond to it yet.
More than 4 queens on 2 base... Hydra is better than marine...
Hydra wreck Marauder... ok good but so do ling so why hydra ? Hydra wreck thors... ok good but so do ling so why hydra ? Hydra wreck all air units... ok good but what units are you talking about ? Banshee ? Queen do better. Vikings ? Muta do better and have other uses. Battlecruisers ? lol. Phenix ? yeah right hydra are usefull in this case. Void Ray ? Queens are better to kill void ray early pushes and in end game void rays always goes with colossi so hydra are not a good choice.
You fail to understand, of course hydra can be deadly in some situation, especially vs protoss, but they have a pretty heavy cost (economical and supply wise) and despite that cost they can die without making any damage in many situation. That's why you don't want to make them, because they are situational despite being a unit that you have to upgrade/mass so that they become effectiv.
As I see it Hydras are needed vs phoenix and double starport banshees. They are often good vs Toss. They are not really core units but they are needed for Zerg.
Btw, Hydra don't do that well against marauders because of stim and HP difference. correct me of i'm wrong, but stim marauders vs Hydra is pretty even. ( And the gas difference make it less cost efficient for zerg anyway )
the hydra has maybe a 3 minute timing window in ZvP where it is effective. in ZvT it has no use. even against mass marauder it's horrible. maybe vs 2port banshee, ok. >_< in ZvZ it`s viable.
EVERY other zerg unit has more to offer in all matchups than the hydra. that's sad.
Hydras are way to slow off creep. I just use hydra when my opponent goes fast void. That is the only time I use them sadly.
They are in my opinion the very HEART - of the swarm. (just look at all the artwork/markeeting) And almost none of the GSL players use them. Or even Gold players.
On March 09 2011 18:50 Subversion wrote: What about giving them that +1 range naturally, and changing the range upgrade into a speed upgrade?
They're just way too damn slow. And you can't have a speed and a range upgrade, or else things just get silly. You already need THREE upgrades just to give roaches burrow movement, which just doesn't seem very elegant at all.
I still don't feel this fixes the problem though. Zerg needs a nice T1.5 1-supply unit that can form part of a core army, like the marine.
Zerg is supposed to be able to mass units, but aside from Zerglings there's really nothing to give that swarmy feel.
Excellent idea !! I would go as far as saying keep the hydra the same BUT put it in tier 1 unit so I can defend the early void ray/ phoenix push or the early banshee rush, hell even the bunker rush with the higher DPS and range of the hydra, then when I get my lair I can upgrade the speed of my hydra to make it effective at offense. Just let the hydra be the tier 1 unit used to defend mainly and if I'm able to survive the initial waves of attacks then I can upgrade to lair and upgrade my hydras just like the roach. And yes I agree with the roaches upgrades why 3 ? Why can't I research tunneling claws and get the speed as well ? How about giving tunneling claws at tier 2 and more speed at tier 3 ? like the ling, speed at tier 1 and dmg at tier 3. The hydra could start at tier 1 as it is now and get a speed upgrade at tier 2, the dmg would be taken from the evo chamber as with the roach.
I'MMA throw my two (Silver) cents in here. Which I imagine a lot of the people on here aren't high league. So I am hedging my post with that disclaimer. (But I still ENJoY theorycrafting).
So, I think everyone has outlined the Major problems of the hydralisk so far, being generally: 1. Slow Speed 2. Lack of range (although with their upgrade this is somewhat fixed) 3. Extreme fragility.
Regardless of DPS output, the hydralisk just can't be put Into most zerg compositions and play well with others because of ONE or more of the issues outlined above.
I, personally, was trying to think about unit compositions and synergy within zerg.
Does anyone think a decrease in Gas cost might see the Hydra fielded more often? I'd like to be able to go Hydra, ling, infestor with probably some roaches thrown in. That's prohibitively Gas expensive, regardless of how good the hydralisk is. just an idea to toss out there.
Something interesting to note: unupgraded roaches and hydralisks move at the same Speed off creep. O.o
Increasing Hydra speed to 2.5, while decreasing Roach speed to the same value, you could end up with a nice Hydra/Roach/Infestor ball that could work in 2 of the 3 matchups. Adding a burrow move research might be interesting.
On March 10 2011 01:41 Wyk wrote: Increasing Hydra speed to 2.5, while decreasing Roach speed to the same value, you could end up with a nice Hydra/Roach/Infestor ball that could work in 2 of the 3 matchups. Adding a burrow move research might be interesting.
3.0 doesn't even feel fast, how is reducing roach speed supposed to make things better?
Creep or no creep hydra still weak. No matter if you have creep or not it will die in seconds vs. storms, collosi, marines, tanks, etc.
Not really. Go into unit tester and try them out. Hydras basically get wrecked by Aoe - in other words, only by 5 units in the entire game. Compare this to marines who are weak against aoe, roaches, stalkers, charlogets, etc. And they aren't particularly weak against marines, just maybe not great. They wreck marauders, thors, all air units, every armored but colosi/siege.
In any encounter with any number of Hydras VS Marines (at a 1:2 ratio) the marines will win by a landslide with or without stim... and at a 1:2 ratio you are spending 50 more gas on each hydra. Thors are also cost effective against hydras.
Oh, marines also beat roaches cost for cost. The only way roaches can become cost effective vs marines is with burrow+burrow movement and no detection for terran.
I think bring back the old + speed upgrade would bring them back to some sort of prominence. They are still a great unit, but the difficulty lies in teching to the point where you can get them out, and then being able to actually deploy them in a meaningful engagement.
On March 09 2011 11:00 CosmicSpiral wrote:Hydras are good against gateway units, not spectacular. They get countered by forcefields, Guardian Shield, blink play.
Blink play is absolutely slaughtered by hydras, even with superb micro. This has been seen in the GSL more than once. Hydras kill stalkers too quickly to even blink them back. Don't spread lies sir. Idra scrap station can't remember the opponent or GSL as one example. I know there are more. Your choice is to blink before a stalker takes damage or after a stalker is dead(obviously this doesn't work).
Send me the replays.
We're not talking about straight-up battles. If blink stalkers run into a superior hydra force they can blink away and find better positioning; hydras can't. Blink stalkers can constantly harass and retreat; hydras can't. Whether they can win in a straight-up fight is debatable and dependent on micro, but blink stalkers don't need to get into the fight in the first place.
Hate to use the term but I'd call it the metagame. Like you said, Hydra do great against gateway units and they have their role as anti-air as well, it's just that the more common styles don't call for Hydras. How often did Terrans build firebats in SC1? Only against heavy ling rushers, but that doesn't mean the firebat was underpowered or unnecessary. It fulfilled an absolutely necessary role and plugged a huge hole in the terran defense/offense. The reason we didn't see them much was just cause the metagame rarely called for more than a couple. I feel Hydra are the same. Situational but necessary, certainly not weak.
The two combined issues that are wieghing down the hydralisk at this point, is a combination of cost-inefficiency with lack of interest. The Hydralisk is mathematically similar to a pair of Terran marines, unlike the terran marine, the Hydralisk has less combined health, less combined damage, and a higher cost (consisting of gas).
Additionally, the Hydralisk is a boring unit.... 90% of units in this game have some "feature" that make it interesting: Marines have stim, Marauders have concussive shell, Roaches move while burrowed, Zealots charge, Stalkers blink, Lings come in pairs, Ultralisks splash, hellions have a line attack, archons are pure shields and splash...etc,etc,etc
BUT what is the Hydralisk? it has nothing unique, no attribute to set it appart from other units in the game.
How would i change the Hydralisk? I would have given it +2 vs mechanical (and i messed around with this as one of many silly changes in a custom map)
OMG WHY WOULD I DO THAT?
-No other unit has a bonus vs mechanical so the Hydra would be unique -This would make the hydra better against terran, giving the Hydra a bonus vs mechanical would make it stronger against Terran mech, and would help in defense against drops/harass from banshees and hellions, as well as make hydralisks stronger in drops against scvs. -This would make the hydra better against protoss, the majority of protoss units now are mechanical (even though protoss structures lack this attribute) A bonus to mechanical would better enable the hydra to compete with blink stalkers, sentries, and immortals, as well as help fight off the powerful protoss air forces. -This would NOT CHANGE ZvZ at all!!!! :DDDDD no zerg unit/structure is mechanical, so this change would have no effect what so ever on the mirror matchup!
As much as people would say that this is an imbalance, I argue that the Hydralisk is mathematically overpriced and underpowered as it is, and needs some factor and amount of uniqueness to set it apart from all of the other units... being average doesn't make it unique.
yeah the old hydra out of bw the very definition of this unit needs the speed upgrade hehe. Hydra won't be faster as she is now, well slower on creep. So nothing against making them slower again but give them a speed upgrade, would delay their attack timing in pvz, protoss will be happy.
Guess you only have to build one colossi in pvz against the most zergs, and then switch to blink stalkers with a few immortals and win, because the zerg will only build roaches and corrupters. Maybe illusion will do the trick too lol.
When i read threads like this it always makes me laugh because there is constant complaints about the speed of hydras. MANY even say that they are so slow off creep that microing them is impossible when the hydra move speed off creep is the same as most of the protoss army (zealots, sentries, collo). I agree that zerg as a race needs to be more mobile race in general for lots of reasons, but I think this observation sheds some light on the zerg self indulgence going on in here as far as balance propositions are concerned. As for myself, I think the hydra needs to be changed because its current role, while SUPER powerful, is very stale. Basically the existence of hydras in the game does more work for zerg than the actual unit. They are so powerful that any strat that is countered by them becomes bad, so you never see either side.
On March 10 2011 03:38 Feefee wrote: Hate to use the term but I'd call it the metagame. Like you said, Hydra do great against gateway units and they have their role as anti-air as well, it's just that the more common styles don't call for Hydras. How often did Terrans build firebats in SC1? Only against heavy ling rushers, but that doesn't mean the firebat was underpowered or unnecessary. It fulfilled an absolutely necessary role and plugged a huge hole in the terran defense/offense. The reason we didn't see them much was just cause the metagame rarely called for more than a couple. I feel Hydra are the same. Situational but necessary, certainly not weak.
They are not at all situational. Before roaches got +1 range, hydras were all zerg players were spamming. At least on ladder. I agree, it is a shift in the metagame. Zerg got a new toy and forgot the hydra in the process. Plenty of zergs still make hydra/roach. Just because of the existent of a single counter unit or two does not justify them being "underpowered." "My unit destroys all your units except 1 or 2, therefore it's underpowered" is not a very sound argument. I don't whine that colossus are useless and weak because zerg makes corruptors. Before colossus, things are very very difficult for protoss if the zerg has hydras.
On March 10 2011 03:38 Feefee wrote: Hate to use the term but I'd call it the metagame. Like you said, Hydra do great against gateway units and they have their role as anti-air as well, it's just that the more common styles don't call for Hydras. How often did Terrans build firebats in SC1? Only against heavy ling rushers, but that doesn't mean the firebat was underpowered or unnecessary. It fulfilled an absolutely necessary role and plugged a huge hole in the terran defense/offense. The reason we didn't see them much was just cause the metagame rarely called for more than a couple. I feel Hydra are the same. Situational but necessary, certainly not weak.
They are not at all situational. Before roaches got +1 range, hydras were all zerg players were spamming. At least on ladder. I agree, it is a shift in the metagame. Zerg got a new toy and forgot the hydra in the process. Plenty of zergs still make hydra/roach. Just because of the existent of a single counter unit or two does not justify them being "underpowered." "My unit destroys all your units except 1 or 2, therefore it's underpowered" is not a very sound argument. I don't whine that colossus are useless and weak because zerg makes corruptors. Before colossus, things are very very difficult for protoss if the zerg has hydras.
Before the roach got +1 range, TvZ consisted of mass reaper (forcing roaches or death) into an expansion, and a mass maurauder stim push to finish the job, while PvZ consisted almost exclusively of one-base play (almost never one-base collosus, I hasten to add), most of which was so unrefined that hydras could be fielded in time to stop it. There's an old tutorial video of Artosis defending a four-gate using crawlers behind evolution chambers into hydras, for example.
I don't think you can attribute zerg's avoiding hydras because they have a 'new toy'; things were pretty different in a lot of ways before that patch.
I never really liked hydras anyway, but if Infestors didn't have tunneling claws, then it would bring hydras back, we don't need more and more units with tunneling claws (pretty powerful upgrade imo) but if it was only the roach that had it, it would be more unique, etc.
The argument about creep is silly. To spread creep offensively, i.e. right up to your opponent's defenses, will take the greater part of the match. Not to mention with an obs or a Raven, its very easy to annihilate 20 minutes of creep spreading work.
Takes about midgame, you see Nestea and Idra do it consistently in matches. It's not hard to do if you make more than 1 queen per hatch, you just do it same time as larva vomits. The point is not how stupid these guys are for making creep, or that Zerg is arguably the hardest race to play, the point is that you are seeing a very real metagame change - something that didn't happen in September, but now always happens.
Just watch a single professional game from beta, and look how different it's played, from both players. What seems 'standard' today is not done at all back then.
I am all for units getting a BENEFIT from creep, but they shouldn't be so shit off creep that they're actually DEPENDENT on it. Creep is supposed to be a reward, not a requirement.
That's very arguable. I guess we can say spawn larva is a 'benefit', not a requirement. Same with mules, chrono boost, marines...
Hydras are a unit that takes skill to use properly, can't handle that? Just go play protoss, or just don't make Hydras as zerg, there are no situations where it's required to use mass Hydras. It's that simple. The game mechanics don't need to be dumbed down and made simpler just because not all players can take advantage of creep properly.
Exactly. Zerg was designed to be the hardest, most difficult, and arguably the weakest of the three races, but when you use them to their full potential, they are, arguably, the best race. If a buff were given to hydras, people who knew how to play them would simply be overpowered. Not everyone can handle playing Zerg, they are extremely unforgiving, but at the same time they can be very rewarding.
Then you come to Zerg and the speed of the hydra doesn't fit in with the race. That is really the problem. Quit saying "it is the same speed as the zealot!" The problem with hydra speed is relative to the speed of the rest of the zerg units, not the speed relative to the other units in the game.
The idea that hydras should be as fast as speedroach, zerglings, or mutalisks is just retarded. Zerg has many fast units, and the hydra is simply normal speed. That's like saying siege tanks are underpowered, they should be able to keep up with hellions.
Hydra wreck Marauder... ok good but so do ling so why hydra ? Hydra wreck thors... ok good but so do ling so why hydra ? Hydra wreck all air units... ok good but what units are you talking about ? Banshee ? Queen do better. Vikings ? Muta do better and have other uses. Battlecruisers ? lol. Phenix ? yeah right hydra are usefull in this case. Void Ray ? Queens are better to kill void ray early pushes and in end game void rays always goes with colossi so hydra are not a good choice.
So why don't we just get rid of colosi, as templars do aoe just fine (or vice versa if you want to argue templar useless against protoss/armored)? It's about timings - going templar leaves you vulnerable, although is the end goal against Terran bio.
What people fail to understand is this game is not rock-paper-scissors - units have their utility also in when they can come out (timings) and costs. If you see a Zerg going hydra and you are going banshee rush, spire won't be out in time. If you plan to expand, going for gas heavy units may be preferable to mineral heavy units.
the hydra has maybe a 3 minute timing window in ZvP where it is effective. in ZvT it has no use. even against mass marauder it's horrible. maybe vs 2port banshee, ok. >_< in ZvZ it`s viable.
EVERY other zerg unit has more to offer in all matchups than the hydra. that's sad.
In high level games, Dark Templar have no use but to simply be a build order win. Ghosts see no use in TvT (which, again, is changing in the metagame as evidenced by ZenexByun) or against Zerg. There are innumerable Terran upgrades that never see usage (Hunter missile, building armor, building range, bunker slots) but when used appropriately, can win the game (turtling Terran needs less Turrets, save money, expand and macro more, HS missile is awesome when needed). If you compare any unit to the marine, really, every unit is 'sad'. The point is that hydra has a situation where a Zerg will lose if going without them, and the game would be broken if the hydra didn't exist, as well as broken if buffed. Imagine if T goes banshees, zerg goes hydra to defend, and is simply able to a-move to victory afterwards will T cannot mass up enough siege to hold off a timing attack? Banshees would become useless if hydra opened. With the state now, hydras are a good response but not the only response.
They are in my opinion the very HEART - of the swarm. (just look at all the artwork/markeeting) And almost none of the GSL players use them. Or even Gold players.
oGsTheWind vs SanZenith, Leenock, Nestea, Fruitdealer... what are you watching?
Excellent idea !! I would go as far as saying keep the hydra the same BUT put it in tier 1 unit so I can defend the early void ray/ phoenix push or the early banshee rush, hell even the bunker rush with the higher DPS and range of the hydra, then when I get my lair I can upgrade the speed of my hydra to make it effective at offense.
Learn to scout? It's pretty simple to realize when you need hydras - if the T is 1 base walling in, get hydras. If he is fast expanding or you see lots of t1 at his ramp, then don't get them. If you are unable to hold a banshee rush at all then maybe it's not the game that's at fault. I think it was a brilliant decision by Blizzard to make it so a race has no anti-air in T1, it makes it much more original, nervewrecking, adrenaline-pumping, and dynamic. If every race simply had A and B, and B counters A and A is equal to A, that would be so boring. It's not hard to hold a banshee rush, and not hard to figure out if one is going on.
If hydras were T1, that would be so broken - Zerg would pump them out, and win crucial timings while not being vulnerable to any that they should be. If it was further nerfed to stay in T1, Zerg would just go pure roaches or have no way to deal high damage considering the low DPS of other units.
So, I think everyone has outlined the Major problems of the hydralisk so far, being generally: 1. Slow Speed 2. Lack of range (although with their upgrade this is somewhat fixed) 3. Extreme fragility.
Regardless of DPS output, the hydralisk just can't be put Into most zerg compositions and play well with others because of ONE or more of the issues outlined above.
I, personally, was trying to think about unit compositions and synergy within zerg.
Does anyone think a decrease in Gas cost might see the Hydra fielded more often? I'd like to be able to go Hydra, ling, infestor with probably some roaches thrown in. That's prohibitively Gas expensive, regardless of how good the hydralisk is. just an idea to toss out there.
1. Hydra isn't slow off creep, and people are beginning to realize that creep is extremely important. Essentially, Zerg is just starting to figure out how to play the race. 2. Not everything needs to be a siege tank. Hydras only need enough range to shoot past the roaches/lings. 3. Countered by the extreme hardiness of roaches or sheer mass of lings. Zerg units, more than other races, need to be put together. That's the idea of the swarm, not the monotony.
ling/hydra owns everything so hard if siege tanks, colosi, or templar aren't around - a t2 unit that's immobile, and the other 2 are t3. Zerg can push great timing attacks with hydralisks. Roach/Hydra is amazing, hydra/ultra, hydra/broodlord, hydra infestor (TLO)...
Zerg needs gas more than other races, that is well known. It's a way to ensure that Zerg needs to have more bases. That is also why Zerg bases are cheaper (you can argue what the 'true' cost may be, but the merit is that Zerg can throw a 300 mineral base faster than a 400 mineral base simply because you get 300 minerals before 400.). Now if you want to argue that Zerg is broken because they need more bases, and Zerg macro doesn't work, that is a totally different issue.
People tend to confuse macro mechanics and unit imbalance - Marines may be overpowered, or maybe it's MULEs that are overpowered. Or maybe the game is balanced. Who knows? Not you or I, that's for sure.
We're not talking about straight-up battles. If blink stalkers run into a superior hydra force they can blink away and find better positioning; hydras can't. Blink stalkers can constantly harass and retreat; hydras can't. Whether they can win in a straight-up fight is debatable and dependent on micro, but blink stalkers don't need to get into the fight in the first place.
idra vs nazgul. If you don't know that hydras are the 'rock paper scissors' solution to blink stalkers, than maybe you should worry about something other than hydra unit balance.
Hate to use the term but I'd call it the metagame. Like you said, Hydra do great against gateway units and they have their role as anti-air as well, it's just that the more common styles don't call for Hydras. How often did Terrans build firebats in SC1? Only against heavy ling rushers, but that doesn't mean the firebat was underpowered or unnecessary. It fulfilled an absolutely necessary role and plugged a huge hole in the terran defense/offense. The reason we didn't see them much was just cause the metagame rarely called for more than a couple. I feel Hydra are the same. Situational but necessary, certainly not weak.
QFT
They are so powerful that any strat that is countered by them becomes bad, so you never see either side.
And as the metagame changes, this will inevitably change as well. And then maybe it will go back again. There are many things Zerg is either just beginning to do, or hasn't learned yet - effective Nydus play, creep spread with multiple queens, overlords with the army, not to mention 'forcing' an opponent to go for a unit composition than going to hydra and owning it (going mass roach to force immortal/zealot or marauders, then switching to hydra very quickly).
it's not even just that hydras are awful, it's that zerg anti air is awful.
Here's a situation every zerg in the world has been in.
Protoss does a phoenix expand while denying scouting. Zergs lair will finish as 4 phoenixs enter your base assuming you hatched first, 14'd/16'd, or pulled gas after 100 in a 14 14 speedling opening. All of which, are standard macro openings.
All of a sudden there's no AA besides two queens to defend 4 phoenixs, both with no energy because you've been injecting. Queen 1 dies as queen 2 tries to run up, then that dies. All the while phoenixs are being rallied in, and when they build insanely fast and are capable of crossing a map nearly instantly, it's very fast reinforcements. This leads to overlords and drones dying. If a replacement queen spawns too soon, then it will die.
Now your hydra den is finished, and your first hydras pop out..... then they get lifted up by phoenixs and killed instantly because they do bonus damage to those as well. IT's not till spores finish and hydras are out that phoenixs are finally chased off. Now you -almost- have to end the game in the near future, because the protoss has been trying to setup his second tech unit. Which will be a designated hydra killer (aka collossi/storm) because once those 0 hp units are dead, >>>nothing<<< else will be good at killing the protosses original phoenixs + void ray air.
the other forms of AA include spire, which takes too long to build (phoenixs are often in your base when your lair finishes, or just after.) and mutas have already been hard countered, so that leaves corruptors that will act as 3 range roaches vs the old reapers, aka a counter... but you'll never actually be able to do damage to the unit you're countering because they're so much faster. Meanwhile they start up voids to kill those... and etc.
point is, zerg anti air is terrible and easily hard countered. Hydras are best at all inning in close positions, they do well there. I used to practice a Hydra all in build vs toss to break out in air situations that involved pushing with a bunch of hydra ling and +1 attack, with range. It's very effective. If hydras were buffed with anything besides speed, it would be that much more stronger.
I don't really want hydras to be buffed in that way, I want them changed. I want to be building a unit capable of shooting up in tier 1 as part of my main army. I don't want to lose because my opponent did some joke air rush build while denying my scouting. (leaving me with nothing but queens that lose in a 1v1 fight to every air unit capable of shooting down.)
as it is, hydras are good to mix in vs toss that doesn't have collossi/storm, kind of ok vs a few collossi with corruptor support, but COMPLETELY useless vs storms/a bunch of collossi.
Hm? I see hydra in practically every PvZ, and even in ZvZ from time to time if the game goes on for long enough.
On March 10 2011 06:49 Let it Raine wrote: text
Why would you expect Z to be able to fend off air if they failed to scout it and didn't invest in AA early enough? How is that not the case for every race in every matchup? What has it got to do with hydras anyway, surely you're not suggesting that lone hydras should be able to combat phoenix in much larger numbers?
lool hydras are fine. They do rediculous damage and have retarded range. They are immobile but thats because if they moved as fast as a roach then creep would be completely useless to spread outside your small area of bases
On March 10 2011 07:16 HKarmY wrote: lool hydras are fine. They do rediculous damage and have retarded range. They are immobile but thats because if they moved as fast as a roach then creep would be completely useless to spread outside your small area of bases
I will agree that they do nice damage, but a range of 6 is not retarded at all it's what a Stalker has. What you say about spreading creep is just so wrong it hurts though. Hydra speed upgrade! No need for creep then right?! Aside from the additional speed it would give anyway... and the vision.. It's like saying getting speed on lings is reason enough to not spread creep.
If you want to say that Hydra's would be way to good with speed, then just say so.
On March 10 2011 07:16 HKarmY wrote: lool hydras are fine. They do rediculous damage and have retarded range. They are immobile but thats because if they moved as fast as a roach then creep would be completely useless to spread outside your small area of bases
It wouldn't make creep useless because you still need it to surround hellions, keep stimmed marines away, and speed up reinforcements.
It's like saying getting speed on lings is reason enough to not spread creep.
Early game creep isn't that far, and lings are melee. Although we've seen that speed does impact ranged, it's not as big as melee.
If you want to say that Hydra's would be way to good with speed, then just say so.
Hydras would be way too good with speed.
yo could say the same thing about the reaper. now its a unit that is almost never used.
Just because it's not used doesn't mean it's not important. The threat of reaper rush, and 1 rax reaper expand are important. We are also finding many people use reapers the same way protoss use late game dark templar. I would say the idea behind the reaper was more broken than the unit itself though. They were actually intended as a fighting unit at first.
It wouldn't make creep useless because you still need it to surround hellions, keep stimmed marines away, and speed up reinforcements.
buffing speed would make hydras too powerful on creep. Only increasing their off creep speed would make them impossible to stop. Hydras are just insanely powerful - try a unit tester where hydras are faster, and do a roach/hyda rush all-in. It would be impossible to stop. Only way to prevent this is to either have them slow off creep, make hydra den take longer (which would make Z defenseless against all-in 1 base air rush, blink stalker, general 1 base play), or make lair longer (lots of problems for that in itself, would require buffing t1 and make spire/infestation/nydus take less time, which would make it impossible to scout Z's lair tech choice)
I've started playing around with ling/roach/infestors, maybe with some blings. I find that it can do what I need it to, especially when I have spore crawlers in base and queens in case of muta play.
Ironically, Roach/hydra is a huge thorn in the side of me adapting this build! I guess it just needs more work!
Hydras are a unit that takes skill to use properly, can't handle that? Just go play protoss, or just don't make Hydras as zerg, there are no situations where it's required to use mass Hydras. It's that simple. The game mechanics don't need to be dumbed down and made simpler just because not all players can take advantage of creep properly.
Exactly. Zerg was designed to be the hardest, most difficult, and arguably the weakest of the three races, but when you use them to their full potential, they are, arguably, the best race. If a buff were given to hydras, people who knew how to play them would simply be overpowered. Not everyone can handle playing Zerg, they are extremely unforgiving, but at the same time they can be very rewarding.
Uhm. How are Hydras hard to use at all? They are the only zerg unit that can actually A-Move and win (I suppose roaches can, but they perform way way way better if they don't). They benefit the least from micro and flanking. Burrow is useless with them as far as I've seen due to the unburrow lag and fragility and range. They can't properly kite. They can't properly run away. They are the easiest to position due to their high range.
Hell, even the timing is easy because the Hydra Den takes so little time to build. It doesn't take high skill to use hydras, and they have probably the least interesting micro opportunities of the zerg units. Zerglings, Roaches, Mutalisks, hell even Corruptors are more skillful to use.
I have yet to hear anyone comment about anyone's "Hydra-micro."
No certainly not. But you're defining a unit by its role, rather than what makes it awesome. I think there's a design issue there.
The only unit more boring than the hydralisk and that is the corruptor. I'm not saying they are bad units. I'm saying they are BORING units. Seriously, corruption? There's not a single ability in the game that has zero affect on game strategy, but corruption is it.
i think hydra are kinda cool, just the insane damage they do, but yea corrupters are horribly uninspiring. Just a blob. I get the whole matrix-machine look they were going for, but the thorns on the side are kinda weird, they move to slow to be like them, and they are just so horrible.
well, to all the guys talking bout hydras hard counter blink stalkers , you should be a little bit careful. i just went in the unit test map and let 15 hydras battle 15 blink stalkers. i play zerg and were able to win the fight with my subpar micro 1st try with 12 stalkers still being alive. ok, stalkers cost 25 minerals more and blink has its cost too but just saying "LOL hydras slaughter blink stalkers ................" is very very wrong ....
On March 09 2011 23:55 Subversion wrote: The argument about creep is silly. To spread creep offensively, i.e. right up to your opponent's defenses, will take the greater part of the match. Not to mention with an obs or a Raven, its very easy to annihilate 20 minutes of creep spreading work.
I am all for units getting a BENEFIT from creep, but they shouldn't be so shit off creep that they're actually DEPENDENT on it. Creep is supposed to be a reward, not a requirement.
Who decided that it should be a reward not a requirement? At the highest level of play use of all advantages should be required, that is where the skill comes in.
The other thing is that people are just thinking about creep wrong. They just spread it and leave it instead of having queens and overlords with the army to have creep under the units constantly. Hydras do have a speed upgrade, it's called Pneumatized Carapace, creep on demand.
For a player good enough to actually take advantage of creep Hydras are faster than all the ground units for other races.
Hydras are a unit that takes skill to use properly, can't handle that? Just go play protoss, or just don't make Hydras as zerg, there are no situations where it's required to use mass Hydras. It's that simple. The game mechanics don't need to be dumbed down and made simpler just because not all players can take advantage of creep properly.
Why should I have to half of my supply floating in the battle just to make one of my units usable? Lets make terrans walk their supply depots along with their army so their marines can stim. It's stupid.
What I'm saying is that Hydras should be decent off of creep for their insane cost. Yes, you should get an advantage for being a gosu creep-spreader. But the unit should not be UNUSABLE off of creep.
In the same way Speedlings on creep are much better at dealing with Terran marine-tank pushes than off, this forces you to spread creep against a Terran who's pushing cleverly. But that doesn't mean you should lose the game to an a-move if you haven't spread your creep.
It's far too much of a hinderance to be forced to spread creep just to make a core, expensive unit USABLE. And yes, I mean usable., The Hydra is complete garbage off of creep.
On March 10 2011 08:34 Ciddass wrote: well, to all the guys talking bout hydras hard counter blink stalkers , you should be a little bit careful. i just went in the unit test map and let 15 hydras battle 15 blink stalkers. i play zerg and were able to win the fight with my subpar micro 1st try with 12 stalkers still being alive. ok, stalkers cost 25 minerals more and blink has its cost too but just saying "LOL hydras slaughter blink stalkers ................" is very very wrong ....
put the missing minerals (25*15) in zerglings and they rape blink stalkers, of course pure hydras don't win against pure blink stalker, that wasn't stated.
bottom line people don't know how to balance shit, predicting game balance is like predicting stock. even the most qualified of people can't predict it. imo blizzard has been the #1 company with regards to competitive balance ( in rts at least) they know when to sit back and chill and see what new strategies develop instead of basing their balancing on the past 2 or even 5 months. shit changes, the only time you need to change something before that time period is if something is completely imbalanced.
the hydra does not need to be changed, if it gets changed then either it becomes a massive buff to a zerg, or something that doesn't matter. if it becomes a massive buff, then you have to balance around this massive buff. in sc1 things were hardly balanced, if sc1 was sc2 then you would have people screaming for queen buffs and psi storm nerfs and dark swarm nerfs etc etc. let the game develop, if zerg consistently has a 35% win rate then you know it's time to change something, pick an area and change it. don't change things with the intention to make it viable, change to balance.
the idea of changing to fit a certain races style is noble, but balance suffers. in WoW a blizzard rep said that they balance around classes, not specs. if your spec sucks well then too bad for you, they don't want to have the headache of balancing 30 specs. they want to balance classes, and that's what i think people need to consider before changing certain units.
On March 10 2011 08:34 Ciddass wrote: well, to all the guys talking bout hydras hard counter blink stalkers , you should be a little bit careful. i just went in the unit test map and let 15 hydras battle 15 blink stalkers. i play zerg and were able to win the fight with my subpar micro 1st try with 12 stalkers still being alive. ok, stalkers cost 25 minerals more and blink has its cost too but just saying "LOL hydras slaughter blink stalkers ................" is very very wrong ....
put the missing minerals (25*15) in zerglings and they rape blink stalkers, of course pure hydras don't win against pure blink stalker, that wasn't stated.
Then why not just make fewer hydras overall and more zerglings? His point was that hydras don't serve a cost effective purpose against much of anything, even when compared to Zerg's other cost ineffective units (the roach excluded),and he's right.
Yeah people have been saying hydras suck since beta. They fall under the same category as things like bunker salvage, excessive amounts of short rush distance maps in ladder, and misc. colossi criticisms. I just wish blizzard would take slightly larger and slighty more bold baby steps in balancing out some aspects of SC2.
Hydras can be viable in zvst, Using them with broodlords and fungal growth, has proven to be very strong.
Vs toss, there still a amazing unit against gateway units.
I feel the hydra is still a great unit. Getting a few hydras to attack behind your roaches will only further increase your dps, do to the hydras range.
So there is no reason to ever not include them in a comp with roach infester. Its just decieding how many infestors do i want, and how many hydras do i want.
Just because they aren't beefy like the roach doesn't make them bad. There good because they have a grater range and dps, allot more then the roach with just 4 range.
The hydras range allows it to be engaging more so then the bulk of roaches.
Hydras do extremely well vs gateway units and viking/banshee. We have seen some use of them in many games but once collosus comes out there is no real reason to use them. ZvP needs a change to make hydras more usable vs robo and less vs gateway/starport and so they dont die in 1 sec to seige tanks in ZvT. They needs a buff. Marines cost for cost beat them, have better upgrades and are way more massable.
On March 09 2011 23:55 Subversion wrote: The argument about creep is silly. To spread creep offensively, i.e. right up to your opponent's defenses, will take the greater part of the match. Not to mention with an obs or a Raven, its very easy to annihilate 20 minutes of creep spreading work.
I am all for units getting a BENEFIT from creep, but they shouldn't be so shit off creep that they're actually DEPENDENT on it. Creep is supposed to be a reward, not a requirement.
Who decided that it should be a reward not a requirement? At the highest level of play use of all advantages should be required, that is where the skill comes in.
The other thing is that people are just thinking about creep wrong. They just spread it and leave it instead of having queens and overlords with the army to have creep under the units constantly. Hydras do have a speed upgrade, it's called Pneumatized Carapace, creep on demand.
For a player good enough to actually take advantage of creep Hydras are faster than all the ground units for other races.
Hydras are a unit that takes skill to use properly, can't handle that? Just go play protoss, or just don't make Hydras as zerg, there are no situations where it's required to use mass Hydras. It's that simple. The game mechanics don't need to be dumbed down and made simpler just because not all players can take advantage of creep properly.
Why should I have to half of my supply floating in the battle just to make one of my units usable? Lets make terrans walk their supply depots along with their army so their marines can stim. It's stupid.
What I'm saying is that Hydras should be decent off of creep for their insane cost. Yes, you should get an advantage for being a gosu creep-spreader. But the unit should not be UNUSABLE off of creep.
In the same way Speedlings on creep are much better at dealing with Terran marine-tank pushes than off, this forces you to spread creep against a Terran who's pushing cleverly. But that doesn't mean you should lose the game to an a-move if you haven't spread your creep.
It's far too much of a hinderance to be forced to spread creep just to make a core, expensive unit USABLE. And yes, I mean usable., The Hydra is complete garbage off of creep.
Although I disagree with you about using your ol... I do agree that hydra is not cost efficient off of creep. But I would like to see some games where Hydras have increased speed off of creep before agreeing that's the fix. If you buff the hydra, Protoss/Terran might have too much trouble dealing with them.
If someone with expert computer skills could create a UMS with buffed (faster speed off creep) hydras that would be really nice? See if ZvP would look better? That would solve a lot of curiosity in this thread alone. But to speculate if Hydras are better or worse off creep is a waste of energy that will start a debate surely going nowhere.
On March 10 2011 09:39 Mafs wrote: Hydras do extremely well vs gateway units and viking/banshee. We have seen some use of them in many games but once collosus comes out there is no real reason to use them. ZvP needs a change to make hydras more usable vs robo and less vs gateway/starport and so they dont die in 1 sec to seige tanks in ZvT. They needs a buff. Marines cost for cost beat them, have better upgrades and are way more massable.
Players can still make hydras, just don't make as many. Too many people just say hey look he has cols, so my hydras will get owned, and never make a hydra again.
The hydras still perform great dps, just positioning them behind the roaches is important.
I also believe Hydra+infestor drops could become really good
On March 10 2011 10:02 hejakev wrote: (useless image) This is the longest hydra complaint thread I've ever seen
It helps that a lot of the posts in the thread contain actual content instead of derailing.
@Hydras on creep - even when they're on creep, they're still slower than stimmed marines (and slower than unstimmed marines off-creep, it's the same speed bonus.) And they aren't exactly getting an attack speed upgrade from the creep either.
There's some times that a zerg MUST build hydras. Obviously. But it's not because we think they're a good unit, it's because we have NO CHOICE. Queens and Hydras are the only ground units that shoot up. And personally, until a game absolutely necessitates hydras for shooting up, or I've been going roach but am starting to have too many roaches to fit into an arc, I won't be building hydras. I'm not building hydras because I like them, but because there's no other option for "units that can shoot up" or "units that have more than 4 range"
On March 10 2011 10:13 Owarida wrote: Scrap the hydra, let roach shoot air and give it +1 more range as an upgrade.
PROBLEM SOLVED
There was no problem to begin with. Our roach is great enough as it is. Hydras are good. There just not a unit needed until a certain point in a game, unless its to directly deal with a fast harass.
I however really like getting a quick den when I'm facing toss, I will be hydra happy until they get more then 1 col, still using roaches to tank damage. I like to move out with a roach hydra push before cols are a problem. Sometimes that just dosent happen if the toss is any good. In that case i would switch to roach corrupter. Zerglings as clean up with the few hydras is effective, if you can pick off the cols.
I agree it does suck how fast cols can kill hydras when there in big numbers. But its our job as zerg to deny the third and keep his army at a manageable number.
On March 10 2011 10:02 hejakev wrote: Courtesy of Soier
This is the longest hydra complaint thread I've ever seen
You can't trivialise it as some kind of QQ thread.
Everyone seems to be missing that we're not trying to say "BUFF HYDRA THEY SUCK LOL"
The point here is that Hydras, as they are, do not make sense as a Zerg unit. They have terrible synergy, don't fit with the theme of Zerg, and as a core unit are having more and more limited uses.
Hydras need to be completely reworked, not just an arbitrary buff.
On March 10 2011 10:02 hejakev wrote: (image) Courtesy of Soier
This is the longest hydra complaint thread I've ever seen
Er... Hydras are T2, and can be easily rushed to (unlike 100 second spire tech). It's a little dumb in most circumstances (but great against blink stalker). I mean I just don't understand the picture... who is suggesting rushing to hydras? I don't get the joke.
The point here is that Hydras, as they are, do not make sense as a Zerg unit. They have terrible synergy, don't fit with the theme of Zerg, and as a core unit are having more and more limited uses.
I agree. I consider the Queen the core AA unit of the zerg, not the hydra.
On March 09 2011 23:55 Subversion wrote: The argument about creep is silly. To spread creep offensively, i.e. right up to your opponent's defenses, will take the greater part of the match. Not to mention with an obs or a Raven, its very easy to annihilate 20 minutes of creep spreading work.
I am all for units getting a BENEFIT from creep, but they shouldn't be so shit off creep that they're actually DEPENDENT on it. Creep is supposed to be a reward, not a requirement.
Who decided that it should be a reward not a requirement? At the highest level of play use of all advantages should be required, that is where the skill comes in.
The other thing is that people are just thinking about creep wrong. They just spread it and leave it instead of having queens and overlords with the army to have creep under the units constantly. Hydras do have a speed upgrade, it's called Pneumatized Carapace, creep on demand.
For a player good enough to actually take advantage of creep Hydras are faster than all the ground units for other races.
Hydras are a unit that takes skill to use properly, can't handle that? Just go play protoss, or just don't make Hydras as zerg, there are no situations where it's required to use mass Hydras. It's that simple. The game mechanics don't need to be dumbed down and made simpler just because not all players can take advantage of creep properly.
Why should I have to half of my supply floating in the battle just to make one of my units usable? Lets make terrans walk their supply depots along with their army so their marines can stim. It's stupid.
What I'm saying is that Hydras should be decent off of creep for their insane cost. Yes, you should get an advantage for being a gosu creep-spreader. But the unit should not be UNUSABLE off of creep.
In the same way Speedlings on creep are much better at dealing with Terran marine-tank pushes than off, this forces you to spread creep against a Terran who's pushing cleverly. But that doesn't mean you should lose the game to an a-move if you haven't spread your creep.
It's far too much of a hinderance to be forced to spread creep just to make a core, expensive unit USABLE. And yes, I mean usable., The Hydra is complete garbage off of creep.
Although I disagree with you about using your ol... I do agree that hydra is not cost efficient off of creep. But I would like to see some games where Hydras have increased speed off of creep before agreeing that's the fix. If you buff the hydra, Protoss/Terran might have too much trouble dealing with them.
If someone with expert computer skills could create a UMS with buffed (faster speed off creep) hydras that would be really nice? See if ZvP would look better? That would solve a lot of curiosity in this thread alone. But to speculate if Hydras are better or worse off creep is a waste of energy that will start a debate surely going nowhere.
This is an interesting idea.
How difficult would it be to create a UMS where you could alter a unit's stats? This would allow us to test changes out ourselves and see how it looks.
A thread full of these kinds of findings might also actually help Blizzard, or at least bring their attention to it.
Some tests comparing the hydra to the marine and stalker(for the most part) since they're all all-purpose ranged units, keep in mind the hydra is the only one that is tier 2. Upgrades are 0/0 in all examples. Couldnt manage to make this test happen in a wide open area but it still has some interesting results.
For the record I am of the mindsset that it is unrealistic to expect a zerg to always battle on creep when on the offensive. I also like the idea of switching the roach and hydra on the tech tree and balancing accordingly mainly becuase I want the lurker back in HOTS and at lair tech but also becuase this gives you access to 5 range vs ground and air before lair. my only concern with doing this change is banelings in zvz but I think its worth testing (PTR maybe?)
If the hydra is to remain lair tech, at 100/50 its only 50minerals away from matching the cost of 2 BW hydras, so this also would require some testing but I would rather pay 150/50 for hydras with 160hp.
i think blizzard probably will address this and some other units. i think that hydras aren't completely broke like reapers.
moon used them very effectively in zvp. i have a feeling more range? more armor? blizzard is slow but they seem to address certain things and i think lack of hydra usage shouldb e one of those issues.
If players would start using nydus more the movement disability hydras have would be reduced greatly. Remember crackling drops in BW? Hydra worms can be used to similar effect. Hydras are still useful as anti air as well, although zerg has other units to fill this role. I think having just a few hydras mixed into an army have great benefits even if its just 5 or 10 instead of having 5 or 10 roaches since you'll have a large number to tank anyways.
Some tests comparing the hydra to the marine and stalker(for the most part) since they're all all-purpose ranged units, keep in mind the hydra is the only one that is tier 2. Upgrades are 0/0 in all examples. Couldnt manage to make this test happen in a wide open area but it still has some interesting results.
For the record I am of the mindsset that it is unrealistic to expect a zerg to always battle on creep when on the offensive. I also like the idea of switching the roach and hydra on the tech tree and balancing accordingly mainly becuase I want the lurker back in HOTS and at lair tech but also becuase this gives you access to 5 range vs ground and air before lair. my only concern with doing this change is banelings in zvz but I think its worth testing (PTR maybe?)
If the hydra is to remain lair tech, at 100/50 its only 50minerals away from matching the cost of 2 BW hydras, so this also would require some testing but I would rather pay 150/50 for hydras with 160hp.
Can you give us a summary of your results? How did the hydra fare? (im guessing not so well ^^)
On March 11 2011 13:04 Xyik wrote: If players would start using nydus more the movement disability hydras have would be reduced greatly. Remember crackling drops in BW? Hydra worms can be used to similar effect. Hydras are still useful as anti air as well, although zerg has other units to fill this role. I think having just a few hydras mixed into an army have great benefits even if its just 5 or 10 instead of having 5 or 10 roaches since you'll have a large number to tank anyways.
Do you know how difficult it actually is to pull a nydus off against a good player? It's nearly impossible. Not to mention that assuming you get it on the 1st try, its a 300/300 investment. That's pretty pricey for something that fails more often than not.
I do think Hydras may be most effective as drop units, but again, thats NOT ZERG. Zerg is supposed to mass cheap mobile armies that overrun the opponent. A supposedly core unit which is only really useful as part of drop harass has no place in the Zerg army.
On March 11 2011 13:04 Xyik wrote: If players would start using nydus more the movement disability hydras have would be reduced greatly. Remember crackling drops in BW? Hydra worms can be used to similar effect. Hydras are still useful as anti air as well, although zerg has other units to fill this role. I think having just a few hydras mixed into an army have great benefits even if its just 5 or 10 instead of having 5 or 10 roaches since you'll have a large number to tank anyways.
Nydus worms are a gimmick that are only truly useful in lower leagues. We saw what happened to OGStheWind when he tried to Nydus into Zenith's base. It was a joke. And that's an early, wide open base. If the nydus isn't in by mid game, it's pretty well useless except as maybe a transport to the front line of an opponent who isn't scouting.
On March 11 2011 13:55 Techno wrote: Hydras are underexplored TvZ. I'm not saying that the have a niche there, but they might.
You mention Colossus in your post, and here we have stumbled upon the true problem....
Not with marines on the field. Hydras are extrememly cost ineffective vs. Terran. Consider the lowest common denominator is the unit of supply. Take a look at how the units stack up:
Supply - Marine: 1 supply per unit Hydra: 2 supply per unit
Using supply as the lowest common denominator, we have a standard of comparison and can compare 2 marines vs. 1 Hydra
Production Costs - 2 Marine: 100 minerals 1 Hydralisk: 100 minerals / 50 gas Winner: Marines - no gas investment required
DPS - 2 Marines: 12 1 Hydralisk: 12 Winner: Push - unless you consider the marines fire is split between two seperate units creating an advantage for the Marines
Range: Marines: 5 Hydralisk: 5 (+1 upgrade available for 150/150) Winner: Push until the Hydralisk gets grooved spine upgrade)
Unique Upgrades: Marine: Stimpack (speed upgrade), Combat Shield (+10 HP per marine) Hydralisk: Grooved spines (+1 range attack upgrade) Winner: Marine
Armor- Marine: 0 Hydralisk: 0
What advantage does the hydralisk get for the 50 gas investment vs. the tier 1 terran unit? Certainly not armor, which I'd argue they should at least get +1 armor for that gas investment. As a comparative unit, they cost more, but have less HP than the equal supply of marines.
Putting any money into hydralisks in ZvT in the current state only makes sense if there are no marines on the field because there is no advantage for using this T2 unit in the matchup. It's just a gas sink.
You can't compare units like that. Its like comparing apples and oranges. This post you put alot of time and effort in means absolutely nothing...
Anyways, you forgot hydras can burrow, like it even matters. Also wouldn't it be a disadvantage for the fire to be split between 2 marines because one will get killed and the dps therefore gets cut in half.
I think the main issue is the massive prejudice from BW and the image the hydra has as a 'core' unit. You can not effectively build an army around the hydra in SC2.
It isn't intended to work that way. However the very high hydra DPS means that adding a small number of hydras to an army will greatly benefit that army's DPS due to the hydra's all-round nature without bringing the hydra's greatest weakness (weakness in numbers) into play.
Take the PvZ example where Collossi balls own mass hydras. You normally counter this with ling/roach/corruptor or something similar. Adding a small number (say 6-8) hydras to this mix will provide an overall damage boost without seriously impacting overall performance.
If by some micro feat those 6-8 hydras get focused down in the first few seconds by the colossi you don't loose much. This situation is however unliekly. Much more likely is the collossi will not be firing at such a small number of hydras, being far more occupied with the more immenent roach threat... and then the hydra's weak health but strong DPS comes out...
Haven't really tried this in practice more than once. In that attempt my hydras died as soon as the roaches went down but that was more a macro error than an issue with the concept. I'm fairly sure they did good damage until they died.
I'm almost convinced this can be used vs. T to an equal effect, where you sacrifice some small number of units (muta, roach, ling) in favor of a few hydras that add overall flexibility to your army without focusing on a 'sub par' unit.
You can't compare the two units like apples and oranges, because marines are available from Tier 1, cost only minerals for a race that already has the best mineral income, and after stimpack and combat shields actually have even better stats than were used in that comparison...ohh and they synergize with other units too unlike the hydralisk (medivacs anyone?). On the bright side, at least hydralisks are somewhat less susceptible to splash damage, they only melt in .003 seconds to splash damage instead of .002! and they have 1 more range!
Hopefully the Hydralisk gets a total rework in HOTS. Currently it's just a shittier, vastly less cost efficient marine. At least in BW it was differentiated by its damage type, ability to morph to lurkers,low supply, faster speed, and having support units like defilers. Even if its stats were better and Hydralisks performed better as units, they'd still just a stronger version of a marine that costs gas, which is still also quite boring.
On March 11 2011 13:04 Xyik wrote: If players would start using nydus more the movement disability hydras have would be reduced greatly. Remember crackling drops in BW? Hydra worms can be used to similar effect. Hydras are still useful as anti air as well, although zerg has other units to fill this role. I think having just a few hydras mixed into an army have great benefits even if its just 5 or 10 instead of having 5 or 10 roaches since you'll have a large number to tank anyways.
What I have been doing lately is droping my hydras on siege tanks vT and they kill every single tank within seconds.
On March 08 2011 21:59 Rabiator wrote: Personally I think that too few Zerg actually get the burrow upgrade, which could save a few Hydras from dying with good micro, but which would force an opponent into spending resources to kill them. Sure the Hydras arent as tough as Roaches and dont have their burrowed movement or regenerative skills, but that makes burrow even more important to keep your investment alive.
The Hydra has awesome dps, but only very few Zerg ever bother with any drop play. Suuure the old "oh its so expensive to research" argument will be thrown at me, but Zerg has the fastest growing economy past the early game and resources should not matter that much. Its not like your opponents arent researching useful stuff. Drops are powerful and underused by Zerg players. Change that before whining about how useless your units are.
You don't even play the game, don't even own the game, yet feel you should still be able to speak about how zergs aren't playing their race properly? (I'm not kidding about the he doesn't own the game part)
Please stop posting crap like this since you don't just don't play zerg, you don't play. period.
The problem is that hydra's weakness makes a big whole in zerg's offensiv possibilities. It's easy to understand zerg nowadays : good race with good units, way harder to play than protoss & terran because of drone / unit balance and big weakness early, but absolutly null offensiv capacities pre T3. It's amazing how zerg can't never attack / hinder economy / punish greed. 4-5 photon canon with a good sim city lock almost all counter and there are no units who are cost effectiv against canon. Same against the lolmao Planetary fortress ("Hello, imma suicide 40 baneling on your PF"). And the only unit that could do well against PF, against canon, is a unit that is useless off creep, so useless to counter attack : the hydra.
Some might argue that roach are good against canon, but they are not because canon have higher range, and a good sim city nullify roach. (as for PF, I just hate roach against terran for some reasons)
That's what I hate about playing zerg, I get attacked by a protoss death ball, and the protoss expand and tech at the same time. Even if I crush his army (which happen most of the time on open ground) I can't kill his base because he put down 5 or so canon and can defend with reinforcement easily.
Some people in this thread stated that the Hydra's role would be antiair. So, why not make it an antiair unit?
- faster speed (dunno how fast exactly and if upgradable) - 2 attack types: a) Ground attack: Same range, but deals less damage than now b) Air attack: Range 7, low damage output, but extra damage vs non-massive units
Effect vs Ground: Due to better mobility (than before) they should still be viable as extra damage output (as seen in the video an page 28 in this thread, extra speed means extra damage)
Effect vs Air: Could be used against Colossus / Void Ray, shooting the Voidrays due to high range. Could be used to kill Medivacs in ZvT. Both Toss and Tera would have to Micro their air in order to still be effective.
What do you guys think of that unit? It would still not be a Core unit, but if balanced correcty it would / should be a viable addition to the Zerg army.
The time window where you can use efficiently hydras is just too short. mid t2 unit, hard countered by tanks and completly destroy by colossus ? I don't see any reason to invest on hydras before i get ultralisks. They need a clear buff on move speed and 6 range (7 with +1 upgrade), you can decrease the dps to balance ofc.
As maps get larger hydra will lose any viable offensive role which they currently had on maps like Steppes, close metal/LT, and larger maps give more time to get a spire up in response to protoss air openings (which is always better unless there is no tech switch to coli.. which would be unusual).
In ZvZ I think with the infestor change there's not going to be enough gas for that many hydras.
On March 11 2011 23:23 Bactrian wrote: As maps get larger hydra will lose any viable offensive role which they currently had on maps like Steppes, close metal/LT, and larger maps give more time to get a spire up in response to protoss air openings (which is always better unless there is no tech switch to coli.. which would be unusual).
In ZvZ I think with the infestor change there's not going to be enough gas for that many hydras.
They will only lose the role for offense if you are the "army vs. army" type of player. As long as people are still doing harrass with ground forces (and Hydras are really good at dealing damage) there is a place for Hydras. Sadly Zerg dont do drops or Nyduses enough, but larger maps would certainly offer the possibility for this, especially against Terrans who cant just warp in some units to defend.
On March 11 2011 22:52 Serrin wrote: Some people in this thread stated that the Hydra's role would be antiair. So, why not make it an antiair unit?
- faster speed (dunno how fast exactly and if upgradable) - 2 attack types: a) Ground attack: Same range, but deals less damage than now b) Air attack: Range 7, low damage output, but extra damage vs non-massive units
Effect vs Ground: Due to better mobility (than before) they should still be viable as extra damage output (as seen in the video an page 28 in this thread, extra speed means extra damage)
Effect vs Air: Could be used against Colossus / Void Ray, shooting the Voidrays due to high range. Could be used to kill Medivacs in ZvT. Both Toss and Tera would have to Micro their air in order to still be effective.
What do you guys think of that unit? It would still not be a Core unit, but if balanced correcty it would / should be a viable addition to the Zerg army.
If you want low-damage range 7 AA attack, use a queen.
But really, the queen is a much better AA unit in general, because it doesn't need units in front of it to stay alive (which obviously doesn't matter against air units).
Imo, I think it is still too early in the game to count out Hydras. Remember when the standard in ZvP was Mutaling? Now we are seeing much more roach hydra, because the protoss learned to counter ML. Now protoss is learning how to counter Roach Hydra, and the zerg will figure a new strategy to beat protoss's counter to RH. Its just the circle of life of a unit composition. The Hydra will see it's day again, after a few more strategys become standard and fade away.
On March 11 2011 23:46 57 Corvette wrote: Imo, I think it is still too early in the game to count out Hydras. Remember when the standard in ZvP was Mutaling? Now we are seeing much more roach hydra, because the protoss learned to counter ML. Now protoss is learning how to counter Roach Hydra, and the zerg will figure a new strategy to beat protoss's counter to RH. Its just the circle of life of a unit composition. The Hydra will see it's day again, after a few more strategys become standard and fade away.
At least, thats my opinion.
The problem with your opinion is mutaling actually has something to offer: Mobility.
Hydras offer sub-par, over-priced DPS with specifically slow movement speed off creep and not particularly fast on-creep, they're no zergling or even roach...
Zerg never goes Hydra because they WANT to, they go Hydra because they have no other choice, and it typically doesn't work out in their favor.
i'ld like to see hydras move pre lair, there crapness off creep, means they're offesive abilties can still be counters (because it just take them so long to get there to attack)
shear cost, means when oppoments are scouting -2 gas = hydras.
this will open up a large window for hydras to be used, it prevents 4warpgates being such a massive threat.
allows for roach/hydras combo earlier.
we all know how effective seig tanks/hellions/collous/imortals are vs hydras.
I think like one guy watched my video lol, but one of the most interesting results I had was 20 hydras vs 40 marines, with and without combat shield on or off creep, the hydra won and with the range upgrade it did better. But then 40 stimmed marines completly stomped 6 range hydras on creep without medivacs.
I would like to hear more opinions from pro zergs on this subject, idra already spoke in favor of switching the hydra and roach tech, but hopefully some other zergs like catz and ret can chime in.
One of the things that made hydra so effective in broodwar, was not only the 1 supply, low cost, and tier 1 arrival, but defilers and dark swarm in teir 3. They were an incredibly versatile unit that scaled nicely into tier 2 (providing a residual anti air from tier 1 and also the morph into lurk for anti marine handling) and then scaled nicely into tier 3 with defiler support swarming them.
If we are going to change them, then how about a spell or an ability that allows their handicaps to be overcome? Speed, extra shields, etc. But absolutely some ability that allows the hydra to scale into the next tier/tiers.
Come to think of it, all the zerg units could use this kind of attention to how they scale. The current design of the game lends to turtling styles that create drawn out stand offs. Meanwhile behind that standoff opponents tech into low tier nullifying unit compositions. If you can scale up, then you can invest in low tier tech when it is needed, and then move up into a soft counter, giving you flexibility throughout the entire match up.
As it sits zerg needs to throw their units away and trade up in order to scale up and in early stages of the game, they dare not invest in an army less they get caught out in the mid game to late game transitions..
And this idea that zerg is a 5 base swarming race when almost all their units cost 2+ supply (6 for ultras, 4 for broods?) is a joke when 3 base saturation with 3 queens requires 96 supply, leaving about 50 units for swarming. What kind of swarm is that then? Are you going to make 10 broods when they take 40 supply? maybe you can add 1 ultra and a few banes that explode themselves into nothing?
Hydras need to be 1 supply, and so do roaches, broods need to be 2 and ultras 3. Adjust the cost and dps accordingly or just make the game 300 - 400 supply. As it stands I dont think terran or protoss have any problem holding off a 300 supply zerg, but zerg isn't able to actually achieve the mythical SC1 swarm unless they sacrifice drones or stockpile larva and effectively throw 1/3rd of their army at the enemy at a time..
On March 10 2011 08:47 shawster wrote: your opinion doesn't matter
hell even the pros don't matter
bottom line people don't know how to balance shit, predicting game balance is like predicting stock. even the most qualified of people can't predict it. imo blizzard has been the #1 company with regards to competitive balance ( in rts at least) they know when to sit back and chill and see what new strategies develop instead of basing their balancing on the past 2 or even 5 months. shit changes, the only time you need to change something before that time period is if something is completely imbalanced.
the hydra does not need to be changed, if it gets changed then either it becomes a massive buff to a zerg, or something that doesn't matter. if it becomes a massive buff, then you have to balance around this massive buff. in sc1 things were hardly balanced, if sc1 was sc2 then you would have people screaming for queen buffs and psi storm nerfs and dark swarm nerfs etc etc. let the game develop, if zerg consistently has a 35% win rate then you know it's time to change something, pick an area and change it. don't change things with the intention to make it viable, change to balance.
the idea of changing to fit a certain races style is noble, but balance suffers. in WoW a blizzard rep said that they balance around classes, not specs. if your spec sucks well then too bad for you, they don't want to have the headache of balancing 30 specs. they want to balance classes, and that's what i think people need to consider before changing certain units.
Except blizzard has stated multiple times that they consider the feedback of everyone who speaks up. Wether they consider it shit, or good insight, is a totally irrelevant, but the point is; opinions do matter to blizzard.
I do agree with the idealology of sitting back and letting players figure stuff out for a long time, though. Hydras don't need to be used in every match up, or even be cost-efficient, as long as there's zergs performing well at the top level.
I think alot of the players of sc2 are just expecting changes to come quicker than BW's patches.
mmm lesse hydras 1 supply would mean tanks 2 supply, really for that one 90 tanks 20 workers late game <3 mining through mules. not even a cliff less map would leave an opening against this defense xD.
But at the moment zerg maxes out rally fast because they only produce cheap units and don't have to invest nearly as much as the other races in production.
As for the heavy gas cost i don't see a big problem her, modified rich (as much inside as normal geysir) geysir expansion that is hard to defend unless you are zerg, vs a easier to hold gold expo if you are a terran.
i liked the bw maps with those evil 2 geysir expansions was fun to watch a zerg taking the risk getting it.
Anyway to those fast change suggestion coming up her, i don't think you will like the waves that will come back if they really decide to change the t2 damage monster called hydra. (as much as it sounds people want a roach looking like the hydra with a bit more range so they have it even easier to a click their way to victory)
and if you fill 3 bases with 90 workers as zerg its not the other races fault that you do something like this xD. (wouldn't even know where to put the mineral excess you would get from this ^^
I think Hydras haven't been utilized to a great extent as defensive units (stopping drops/etc). I normally use Hydras in these situations:
Cliff harass on LT type maps (Which seem to pretty much have disappeared) Close position Overlord creep highway Hydra pushes against toss/sometimes terran Pure Hydra/Ling vs mass thors Also they make a great combination with Broodlords vs terran OR protoss in just about any unit composition.
I find they have their uses right now in the game - but they're just too damn expensive and require too much of a commitment. I think getting rid of the hydra den/roach warren and merging them into one structure - and just requiring lair for hydras would be a step in the right direction.
The problem with hydra is that they are so volatile. They are extremely good against anything protoss but colossus and then extremely bad vs colossus. This makes the match up super strange in terms of unit composition because the match up swings back and forth so frequently. Maybe this is how blizzard wants the pvz match up though because muta-pheonix can be pretty swingy.
Anyway, I think the advantage of the hydra is in battles of attrition where colossus number can be lowered and then with half hydra half roach reinforcements zerg can wreck face before colossus numbers get too high.
Why is it that off-creep speed is something people often point to when it comes to Hydras? They move as fast as Zealots, Sentries, Immortals, Marines, Marauders, Ghosts, Roaches, as well higher tech units like Colossi- at least before upgrades start kicking in at mid or mid-late game. Zealots and Roaches get a nice speed upgrade, but many units don't get past the 2.25 speed which Hydralisks move at off-creep.
I play random at the diamond level, so I'm not the best to judge balance. It's just something I've noticed.
The speed seems like kind of a weird point I agree, it is only usually relevant at least in a pvz sense if they are caught out of position and behind on units. I think one of the real issues is the stupid range upgrade. What a lame upgrade, I mean honestly would they have come up with something more boring or less unique. It isn't that the upgrade is bad, the point is that they are basically a bland damage dealer that should have some more flavor.
On March 12 2011 01:55 Raygun wrote: Why is it that off-creep speed is something people often point to when it comes to Hydras? They move as fast as Zealots, Sentries, Immortals, Marines, Marauders, Ghosts, Roaches, as well higher tech units like Colossi- at least before upgrades start kicking in at mid or mid-late game. Zealots and Roaches get a nice speed upgrade, but many units don't get past the 2.25 speed which Hydralisks move at off-creep.
I play random at the diamond level, so I'm not the best to judge balance. It's just something I've noticed.
Hydra: they move as fast as Immortals, sentries, ghost. period. Zealot have an upgrade, Marauder Marine have stim pack, colossi can walk off and down cliff which is a pretty good buff to its mobility
Immortal = heavy and strong units. Sentries = caster. ghost = caster.
There is no justification to hydra's speed off creep, if you consider their shitty HP, their cost, their tier tech.
On March 12 2011 01:55 Raygun wrote: Why is it that off-creep speed is something people often point to when it comes to Hydras? They move as fast as Zealots, Sentries, Immortals, Marines, Marauders, Ghosts, Roaches, as well higher tech units like Colossi- at least before upgrades start kicking in at mid or mid-late game. Zealots and Roaches get a nice speed upgrade, but many units don't get past the 2.25 speed which Hydralisks move at off-creep.
I play random at the diamond level, so I'm not the best to judge balance. It's just something I've noticed.
Because it's an incredibly fragile unit, which makes you want to do quick counterattacks, harassment, and micro with it. But that's impossible without offcreep movement speed.
Zealots have charge, MM has stim, (roaches are faster so I don't why you brought that up). All those units have lots of fun micro-opportunities as well.
Consider the protoss deathball. It has colossus and gate units and maybe void rays. It cannot separate, because the Colossus is so important to help the protoss deathball. Now consider the zerg equivalent: Roach/Hydra/(Corruptor). It ALSO cannot separate, because the Hydra is so important and fragile just like the colossus. Yet the Protoss Deathball will dominate the Zerg Deathball.
If that's the case, then the zerg army should have a mobility advantage over the protoss deathball, but this isn't the case. If Hydras were faster (or colossus were slower), the zerg would have way more options when dealing with the protoss deathball.
On March 12 2011 01:55 Raygun wrote: Why is it that off-creep speed is something people often point to when it comes to Hydras? They move as fast as Zealots, Sentries, Immortals, Marines, Marauders, Ghosts, Roaches, as well higher tech units like Colossi- at least before upgrades start kicking in at mid or mid-late game. Zealots and Roaches get a nice speed upgrade, but many units don't get past the 2.25 speed which Hydralisks move at off-creep.
I play random at the diamond level, so I'm not the best to judge balance. It's just something I've noticed.
Compared to all other zerg units they are painfully slow, zerg works by outmanuvering their opponent. Hydras mean that you can't do that anymore off of creep and need to go toe to toe with the opponents army which is normally a losing situation for zerg.
On March 10 2011 09:39 ChefStarCraft wrote: Hydras can be viable in zvst, Using them with broodlords and fungal growth, has proven to be very strong.
This is just my opinion
Yeah, except you'll need thousands of gas to afford hydras + upgrades + infestors + broodlords
//tx
Zerg players have no objections to spending thousands of gas on "throw away Banelings" and then send them into tank lines to try and get those stimming Marines who are running away ...
The mobility isnt really an issue if people start using the Hydra in combination with other units ... and I meant the OVERLORD (dump creep) or the Nydus worm (send a Queen through for an advanced Creep Tumor or two on a large map).
Having the option of an "advanced escape route" (and I dont mean the positioning on the map) is something no one seems to consider. A Medivac costs 100/100 and a Warp Prism costs 200/0 and yet Terrans and Protoss are 10 times more likely to build these than Zerg are to get either drop capability or a Nydus Network. And yet any Zerg unit is 100% safe when they hop into a Nydus Worm after an attack ... something which Terrans and Protoss might want to have too since they lose lots of units in their medivacs. After a "losing battle" you can either remake ALL of your units or save some of them in a Worm ... you be the judge which one is more economic.
On March 08 2011 08:57 Subversion wrote: However, the main thing on my mind is the current state of ZvP. ZvP has long been considered the main role of the Hydra, as it unquestionably wrecks gateway units. However, more and more pros seem to be favouring pure Roach for their ground army, as Hydras are so incredibly weak to Collossus. The problem is that Hydras are a hefty gas investment, and while they do significant damage, they are absolutely wrecked by a critical mass of Collossus. Thus more and more Zerg players are favouring the beefier roach.
This is a problem for Blizzard, as any unit which becomes unused is somewhat of a white elephant. The problem isn't necessarily that the Hydra is a BAD unit, it seems to be more that it does not have a definite role to fill anymore.
As a protoss player, this narrative concerns me. I agree with the statement above (and would add Immortals, VRs and Phoenixes to the list of things which Hydras wreck) - hydras do feel like they are hard to deal with using anything other than colossi (and, as the post states, a "critical mass" of them). Further, the poll states that most people feel a change to the hydra needs to be made in order to make Colossi less effective against hydralisk.
I'm just curious here, without Colossi's current effectiveness - how are we expected to respond to roaches and hydras midgame? I understand that lategame colossi feel overpowering (in critical mass), and could probably be toned down a bit, but how are we to respond to midgame roach hydra aggression if a couple Colossi won't turn the tide? Things like (nerfed) templar, carriers or a mothership are a bit too far down the tech tree to reach before an intial push from a hydra/roach army.
On March 12 2011 01:55 Raygun wrote: Why is it that off-creep speed is something people often point to when it comes to Hydras? They move as fast as Zealots, Sentries, Immortals, Marines, Marauders, Ghosts, Roaches, as well higher tech units like Colossi- at least before upgrades start kicking in at mid or mid-late game. Zealots and Roaches get a nice speed upgrade, but many units don't get past the 2.25 speed which Hydralisks move at off-creep.
I play random at the diamond level, so I'm not the best to judge balance. It's just something I've noticed.
Hydra: they move as fast as Immortals, sentries, ghost. period. Zealot have an upgrade, Marauder Marine have stim pack, colossi can walk off and down cliff which is a pretty good buff to its mobility
Immortal = heavy and strong units. Sentries = caster. ghost = caster.
There is no justification to hydra's speed off creep, if you consider their shitty HP, their cost, their tier tech.
There would be justification to thier off creep speed if they started with 1 armor. That 50 gas that they cost should at least pay for that. As it is, that 50 gas doesn't really pay for anything. It's just a resource sink.
Zerg players have no objections to spending thousands of gas on "throw away Banelings" and then send them into tank lines to try and get those stimming Marines who are running away ...
I wouldn't say that. It's miserable having to throw units away like that - especially when you know that even if you destroy an entire terran mineral line they will just drop the mules that they've been sitting on and pump out marines that will be stimmed and in your base in no time at all.
On March 12 2011 01:32 BattRoll wrote: I think Hydras haven't been utilized to a great extent as defensive units (stopping drops/etc). I normally use Hydras in these situations:
Cliff harass on LT type maps (Which seem to pretty much have disappeared) Close position Overlord creep highway Hydra pushes against toss/sometimes terran Pure Hydra/Ling vs mass thors Also they make a great combination with Broodlords vs terran OR protoss in just about any unit composition.
I find they have their uses right now in the game - but they're just too damn expensive and require too much of a commitment. I think getting rid of the hydra den/roach warren and merging them into one structure - and just requiring lair for hydras would be a step in the right direction.
Sure they have, they just aren't very good at it. Even ON creep, they aren't particularly quick, medivacs will probably get away if the hydras aren't there ahead of time.
Also, the hydras problem in these cases is its total lack of HIT POINTS. How are you going to rely on a defensive unit that has no HP? Stimmed marine drops would cause you to lose a lot of hydras unless you really overwhelm the drop forces. In which case you run into the other problem you get when relying on hydras as a defense unit:
How are you ever going to leave your base? Looking at this, you need to heavily outnumber any harass forces that you're using hydralisks to defend. This means that if you're moving out, that defense force has to either be left behind, or it cannot return to base in time to defend. Even if you're at his front door, and you see a doom drop leave his base, HE'LL GET THERE FIRST.
You might as rely on mass crawlers - you'll be about as mobile - AKA "CAN'T LEAVE CREEP", without wasting all that gas -.- (ok, exaggeration)
The close position "Giraffe Migration" is really the only thing I like out of the possible hydra uses you give. - Hydra + Spines - again, you REALLY need something there to use to soak damage, because hydras just CAN'T. However, I still feel like this exhibits the "I can't leave my base" syndrome of hydras - because you can't leave your base, you bring your base to him! (Insert soviet russia joke here)
Hydra's are indeed a crappy unit and are getting more and more extinct. I'm not sure if the infestor change will make them that less used though, perhaps muta will be more viable because of the projectile speed actually so you will start to actually need hydra's then.
They still see some play for various timing pushes and as a counter to air though.
The reason I suspect for hydra's being so weak is twofold imo. First of all ranged ground units (marine, stalker, hydra) are one of the most generally effective units in the game, they can fight almost anything and thus need to have distinct weaknesses to prevent the game from turning into a mass ranged units + a few supplements. Terran is already extremely marine focussed, protoss uses alot of stalkers so they simply don't want the hydra to be a core unit for Z to keep the racial 'feel' and differences in tact.
The second reason I think the hydra is kept weak is more of a guess: I think the lurker will be added in one of the expansions. That would add a lot of strength to the hydra as it would be able to transition into something else, which would mean the hydra can't be too strong. If they balance the game now without the hydra seeing lots of use it is less likely that an extra addition will severely unbalance all current strategies etc. Of course this is major speculation but I think the addition of the lurker would be popular.
I feel the need to emphasise here that this is NOT a balance QQ. I do not think the Hydra needs to be improved or buffed, I just think it needs to be changed. I don't think it functions well as a Zerg unit in its current state.
That made absolutely no sense. You claim to not be talking about balance, yet you want the Hydra to be changed. That requires a nerf or buff. It's statements like these that make me question the author's intelligence.
Hey mods, this is a balance thread. Just letting you know.
The problem is a combination of things. The main being how effective the roach is. The roach is faster, lasts longer, and with upgrades I feel starts to outshine the hydra, and because its cheaper is much easier to simply throw wave after wave of them at the opponent. Thats my current strat against protoss right now. survive up until I have 3 saturated bases and just send wave after wave of roach at the opponent. If I adding hydra I would not be able to use all my larvae as well.
That being said I think the hydra can be effective given a little creativity. Like having burrowed hydra at 1 position and lead the protoss army to it then unburrow and have a good surround. This also makes it so the hydra start in range of units so there is not that time of trying to push forward with them while colossus thin their numbers. i have not played against the colossus/VR build much yet but i could see this as a viable way to take it out. The only issue is dealing with observers.
No hp nor dam buff needed. The only thing that kills them right now is their movement speed. They cant get to long range dps units with that hp and ms. Their current speed is just ridiculous.
On March 12 2011 01:32 BattRoll wrote: I think Hydras haven't been utilized to a great extent as defensive units (stopping drops/etc). I normally use Hydras in these situations:
Cliff harass on LT type maps (Which seem to pretty much have disappeared) Close position Overlord creep highway Hydra pushes against toss/sometimes terran Pure Hydra/Ling vs mass thors Also they make a great combination with Broodlords vs terran OR protoss in just about any unit composition.
I find they have their uses right now in the game - but they're just too damn expensive and require too much of a commitment. I think getting rid of the hydra den/roach warren and merging them into one structure - and just requiring lair for hydras would be a step in the right direction.
Sure they have, they just aren't very good at it. Even ON creep, they aren't particularly quick, medivacs will probably get away if the hydras aren't there ahead of time.
Hydras off creep are almost as fast as Medivacs, and on creep they are quite a bit faster. They are as fast as a marine off creep and as fast as a stimmed marine on creep.
On March 12 2011 04:22 liewec wrote: No hp nor dam buff needed. The only thing that kills them right now is their movement speed. They cant get to long range dps units with that hp and ms. Their current speed is just ridiculous.
Couldnt agree more. Once you have hydras off creep, its impossible to save them if they get into a battle.
I think the current hydra falls awkwardly between two stools. I mean, they're not a siege tank or colossus: a solid, expensive unit that's game changing in small numbers. Nor are they cheap/durable all-purpose fodder like marines, roaches or lings. They're crap in small numbers, but expensive enough that if you mass them you cut deeply into your resources, AND they're hard-countered by both T and P's go-to units: tanks and colossus. So zerg gets the opportunity to massively commit to a unit that's viable for a couple of minutes, and lose if that commitment doesn't pay off.
Sort of, and the reason they are dieing started with the upgrade to roach's range. Roaches, and now infestors, are infringing upon the hydra's role. Roaches are also much faster, can burrow/move regen, and much cheaper. They gain all of that for the disadvantage of a small amount of range, and not being able to shoot up -- which you don't need to shoot up unless your opponent has air units. Even if they have air, queens probably fill the role of hydralisks a bit better, assuming you have good creep spreads. But let's face it, hydras aren't much good off of creep either.
On March 12 2011 04:22 liewec wrote: No hp nor dam buff needed. The only thing that kills them right now is their movement speed. They cant get to long range dps units with that hp and ms. Their current speed is just ridiculous.
Couldnt agree more. Once you have hydras off creep, its impossible to save them if they get into a battle.
I hate to say it, but welcome to playing Protoss or Terran. Almost all of our units are that slow! Zerg players are a bit spoiled in the speed department since all their units are so bloody fast.
On March 12 2011 04:22 liewec wrote: No hp nor dam buff needed. The only thing that kills them right now is their movement speed. They cant get to long range dps units with that hp and ms. Their current speed is just ridiculous.
Couldnt agree more. Once you have hydras off creep, its impossible to save them if they get into a battle.
I hate to say it, but welcome to playing Protoss or Terran. Almost all of our units are that slow! Zerg players are a bit spoiled in the speed department since all their units are so bloody fast.
they're supposed to be, they're much weaker and inefficient because we have to build them much more frequently. It's part of the design of zerg in general. You dont put a unit that acts like a toss unit in zerg. It just doesnt mesh.
I hate to say it, but welcome to playing Protoss or Terran. Almost all of our units are that slow! Zerg players are a bit spoiled in the speed department since all their units are so bloody fast
Yea, those blink stalkers and stimmed bio are dead in the water if they run into a fight they cant win /sarcasm.
On March 12 2011 04:22 liewec wrote: No hp nor dam buff needed. The only thing that kills them right now is their movement speed. They cant get to long range dps units with that hp and ms. Their current speed is just ridiculous.
Couldnt agree more. Once you have hydras off creep, its impossible to save them if they get into a battle.
I hate to say it, but welcome to playing Protoss or Terran. Almost all of our units are that slow! Zerg players are a bit spoiled in the speed department since all their units are so bloody fast.
Your units are also much more cost effective, it's a racial thing. Zergs get fast but weak units and the hydra, this thread isn't saying hydras are UP it's saying they just aren't zerg units and need to be reworked rather then just buffed.
I personally think that Blizzard need to re-think the whole Creep spread mechanic, it makes zerg far too defensive and makes most zerg ground units useless on offence.
On March 12 2011 04:22 liewec wrote: No hp nor dam buff needed. The only thing that kills them right now is their movement speed. They cant get to long range dps units with that hp and ms. Their current speed is just ridiculous.
Couldnt agree more. Once you have hydras off creep, its impossible to save them if they get into a battle.
I hate to say it, but welcome to playing Protoss or Terran. Almost all of our units are that slow! Zerg players are a bit spoiled in the speed department since all their units are so bloody fast.
Yeh, but Protoss and Terran units crush everything so they never need to retreat.
if hydras die out then thats pretty much the nail in the coffin for the zerg race. dont know how anyone can play competitively if hydras ever become useless. you can only do so much with roaches and mutas are starting to be countered fairly easily.
so imo the zerg race as a whole is dying out, not just the hydra. heart of the swarm has to bring some powerful expansion units to the table for zerg along with some very good zerg buffs. it is the only way to make zerg a FUN race to play rather then a race that makes you want to break your keyboard in half and smash your monitor with a hammer.
there is completely zero variation to the zerg race and most of the time you play defensively the entire time. the entire game your just crossing your fingers and hoping/praying that you dont get steamrolled before ultras or broodlords come out -_-
I've actually switched to using Sling/Bling/Infestor/Ultra is both ZvT and ZvP, the only time I build hydras these days is in reaction to some enemy all-in tech rush where I need the AA or in ZvZ where I'm approching 200/200 with roachs and don't have the time to get broods.
On March 08 2011 09:12 kedinik wrote: Hydras already see lots of good use in ZvZ and ZvP.
If anything, they're just undervalued in ZvT. Hydra / infestor is an incredible late game against terran.
Fungal + hydras decimates anything poking out from existing siege tank lines, really shuts down their army's advancement.
Hydra Infestor is NOT good against terran late game.
I have honestly not heard anything more false. Are you serious? HYDRA INFESTOR?
I have tried this on the GSL maps when they first came out with mixed results. I think you need other units (like banelings w/ drop) to really have a fighting chance. Roach/Infestor is cheaper and has more options thanks to burrow and the off-creep speed. It's far easier to continuously reinforce, unlike Hydra.
On March 08 2011 09:12 kedinik wrote: Hydras already see lots of good use in ZvZ and ZvP.
If anything, they're just undervalued in ZvT. Hydra / infestor is an incredible late game against terran.
Fungal + hydras decimates anything poking out from existing siege tank lines, really shuts down their army's advancement.
Hydra Infestor is NOT good against terran late game.
I have honestly not heard anything more false. Are you serious? HYDRA INFESTOR?
Hydra Infestor is good because you can fungal things in place and then the hydras will outrange the marines (and marauders lose to hydras anyway).
And pretty much all zerg units are useable lategame due to the hard techswitches. I mean going muta/ling and then suddenly switching to hydra/ultralisk is going to be effective regardless of whether or not the hydralisk sucks. That's just generally difficult to deal with (though you have to have a huge macro lead to pull it off).
I think that is part of the problem, as a zerg your expected to be up on bases so that you can over run the opponent, but isn't that the case for all races in all match-ups? To gain the economic lead? Doesn't that mean that your outplaying your opponent. If he's on 2 bases and your on 5, any half decent units can be used to over run the opponent.
I think that there are a lot of misconceptions about the design of the zerg race that the original SC had, like I believe I read somwhere that blizzard thought zerg units were supposed to be dispossable units that you can just keep throwing at the enemy(probably were the idea for the baneling came from) but that wasn't what the original teams design for them. I believe they made zerg units fast moving + health regen. The health regen was an incentive to save your units that are low on health and the mobility was to make it possible to retreat. This might not have been the way it worked out in pro play but that was the concept.
On March 12 2011 12:41 DARKHYDRA wrote: I think that is part of the problem, as a zerg your expected to be up on bases so that you can over run the opponent, but isn't that the case for all races in all match-ups? To gain the economic lead? Doesn't that mean that your outplaying your opponent. If he's on 2 bases and your on 5, any half decent units can be used to over run the opponent.
I think that there are a lot of misconceptions about the design of the zerg race that the original SC had, like I believe I read somwhere that blizzard thought zerg units were supposed to be dispossable units that you can just keep throwing at the enemy(probably were the idea for the baneling came from) but that wasn't what the original teams design for them. I believe they made zerg units fast moving + health regen. The health regen was an incentive to save your units that are low on health and the mobility was to make it possible to retreat. This might not have been the way it worked out in pro play but that was the concept.
Yes, Dustin Browder completely misinterpreted Zerg from BW. Instead of having extra bases being a bonus, it is now an absolutely necessity just to even survive a single army vs army battle. According to David Kim at Blizzcon, they intentionally made all Zerg units absolutely horrible because they would be "overpowered with inject larva." As if having injected larva was any different from having macro hatcheries in Broodwar.
I watched a recent matchup of ZvT where the Z when Hydra Roach, infestor against a terran that went Tank, Marine, with some Marauders...it worked surprisingly well. It was in a tournament earlier this week but I can't remember what. I think it was LaLush vs something.
The hydras were wrecking havock. THeir range is exceptional and they can still take 3? hits from tanks and they were destroying the marines.
Just make sure you have a healthy mixture of them, don't mass them. You know, like a protoss unit, get a mixture of zealots, stalker, sentry, immortals/colossus.
Do that with the hydras, get 8-12 hydras with 20 roaches, maybe some lings or mutas if you can afford and they shred marines like butter.
I honestly think the future of starcraft is more like that. That people will start to find that unit mixtures are a lot better than massing one unit (perhaps if they nerfed the effectiveness of massing just marines or lings and colossi.) ---- Edit: Also, what I noticed from the LaLush game was that he wasn't selecting all of his units and moving in. If you did that they'd be clumped up and yes the siege tanks would destroy them.
But if you sent in a few roaches to get the initial shots off (roaches can take 3 shots from tanks, then a mixture of hydra roaches afterwards, you got your damage soaked up initially and enough space and time to make a push with your hydras for them to be effected and to tear it up.
Think of it like what zealots do, you send them in to soak up damage so your ranged units can do the damage. Hydras are FRICKEN amazing dps, let them get more than 3-4 shots off and they will just destroy things, it's more about positioning with them and finding that soft spot to let them attack consistently.
I think hydras will only be useful/favoured if the metagame shifts towards one which favours air units over ground units. This is because zerg will have an easier time with creep spreading > mobility and muta / hydra will be very viable (mutas for harass and support against some ground units such as colossi / tanks and hydras to destroy air units and protoss ground units.)
The hydra is zergs AA. While the reaper is a 12 years old's idea of a "cool" unit with dual pistols(really two pistols), and jet packs. Nobody is crying over the reaper because it is stupid, and terran already has an excess of units. The reaper isn't even that bad, but stimmed M&M is too retardedly good for reapers to compete with.
Why dont Blizzard just make it abit more like bw it would fix them if u ask me Slower and t1 But there is a Speed upgrade for t2 samewith range. So T1 hydras that is like Marines on and off creep (maybe abit faster on creep or slower on non creep) This will make so everyone that is complaining on no t1 antiair will be happy. They arent so good OP on t1. And if you get the upgrades its worth the money and will not be a dead unit!
On March 13 2011 04:40 smaugswe wrote: Why dont Blizzard just make it abit more like bw it would fix them if u ask me Slower and t1 But there is a Speed upgrade for t2 samewith range. So T1 hydras that is like Marines on and off creep (maybe abit faster on creep or slower on non creep) This will make so everyone that is complaining on no t1 antiair will be happy. They arent so good OP on t1. And if you get the upgrades its worth the money and will not be a dead unit!
ps. it has to get back its spitting!!!
What? If your saying that they need a speed upgrade? In that case you have to imagine what it would do in PvZ and TvZ. In the former it would be considered 'OP' and a collosus magnet (as if toss needs [will need] more reasons to make colo) and it will really have very little affect in the latter since they remain to be glass canons.
Personally I think that the problem lies with the Collosi right now, what I mean by that is that with Collosi the protoss absolutely wrecks hydra's and without hydra's absolutely(Although not in the same sense as the Collosi) wreck gateway units.
However it will be very hard to nerf/buff either unit without having it severe balance problems concerning the other matchup, T(Bio balls and collosi etc).
I think it's just ZvT where they aren't useful. They're still a staple unit in zvz and used often in zvp as they counter all toss units except colossus and HT.
The problem with using hydras in ZvP is that unless you skip roaches (which is a terrible idea unless doing a timing push with speedlings and hydras) the timing window is too short for their use.
The first 10 mins of the game is getting as many drones as possible and getting burrow ASAP with roaches to defend 5 gate expand pressure then you use your mobile roaches with burrow to put pressure back on the protoss until they get their observer out.
Meanwhile the toss is around 2 minutes away from getting collosi out and that isnt a big enough timing window to justify throwing down a hydra den AND a spire which you actually need for corruptors. Any larva spent on hydras during those few minutes before collosi production turn into wasted production.
So yes in theory hydras do very well against gateway units and immortals it just doesn't fit in with the way play is developing
On March 12 2011 12:41 DARKHYDRA wrote: I think that is part of the problem, as a zerg your expected to be up on bases so that you can over run the opponent, but isn't that the case for all races in all match-ups? To gain the economic lead? Doesn't that mean that your outplaying your opponent. If he's on 2 bases and your on 5, any half decent units can be used to over run the opponent.
I think that there are a lot of misconceptions about the design of the zerg race that the original SC had, like I believe I read somwhere that blizzard thought zerg units were supposed to be dispossable units that you can just keep throwing at the enemy(probably were the idea for the baneling came from) but that wasn't what the original teams design for them. I believe they made zerg units fast moving + health regen. The health regen was an incentive to save your units that are low on health and the mobility was to make it possible to retreat. This might not have been the way it worked out in pro play but that was the concept.
Yes, Dustin Browder completely misinterpreted Zerg from BW. Instead of having extra bases being a bonus, it is now an absolutely necessity just to even survive a single army vs army battle. According to David Kim at Blizzcon, they intentionally made all Zerg units absolutely horrible because they would be "overpowered with inject larva." As if having injected larva was any different from having macro hatcheries in Broodwar.
i think we need to give the hydras back that speed movement. everyone knows that zerg is the most mobile unit out of all the races, so y not give them back that speed. 150/150??? also, i suggest a change back to the old school BW Hydra. it was used many times back in BW because it fit and had SPEED. the hydra is one of my fav zerg units, please dont kill it...
On March 12 2011 12:41 DARKHYDRA wrote: I think that is part of the problem, as a zerg your expected to be up on bases so that you can over run the opponent, but isn't that the case for all races in all match-ups? To gain the economic lead? Doesn't that mean that your outplaying your opponent. If he's on 2 bases and your on 5, any half decent units can be used to over run the opponent.
I think that there are a lot of misconceptions about the design of the zerg race that the original SC had, like I believe I read somwhere that blizzard thought zerg units were supposed to be dispossable units that you can just keep throwing at the enemy(probably were the idea for the baneling came from) but that wasn't what the original teams design for them. I believe they made zerg units fast moving + health regen. The health regen was an incentive to save your units that are low on health and the mobility was to make it possible to retreat. This might not have been the way it worked out in pro play but that was the concept.
Yes, Dustin Browder completely misinterpreted Zerg from BW. Instead of having extra bases being a bonus, it is now an absolutely necessity just to even survive a single army vs army battle. According to David Kim at Blizzcon, they intentionally made all Zerg units absolutely horrible because they would be "overpowered with inject larva." As if having injected larva was any different from having macro hatcheries in Broodwar.
It's funny to look back on this thread. I always felt Injects were so powerful considering the old days of BW 5hatch etc. but now I feel as if I have to inject to stay equal to Terran and Protoss and think I am so far behind when I see my Queens with 40+ energy or so. But that's a good thing right? A few months ago I was crying how little SC2 requires to play.... those days are certainly over for me!
On March 13 2011 06:24 FlaShFTW wrote: i think we need to give the hydras back that speed movement. everyone knows that zerg is the most mobile unit out of all the races, so y not give them back that speed. 150/150??? also, i suggest a change back to the old school BW Hydra. it was used many times back in BW because it fit and had SPEED. the hydra is one of my fav zerg units, please dont kill it...
I'd rather have them come out with +1 armor than speed. That would justify the 50 gas spend, and how slow they are off creep.
On March 13 2011 08:23 Affluenza wrote: Hydra's need to be cheaper...
Zerg is suppose to be a race where you can amass cheaply and Hydra's are not cheap...maybe they should be 25 gas and minerals less...so 75/25...
Hydra's in my mind are just glorified marines...so they should be priced near to a marine...
The biggest hold-back in my mind is not the cost in resources but the cost in supply. They are such a slow and frail unit that I have a hard time imagining how 2 supply could be justified.
I think hydras either need a speed upgrade, or an increase of their range by 1. Zerg really suffers from a lack of long-range units in the game as it is (broodlords are really the only unit with a significant range, and they're slow as hell and can only attack ground, corruptors have decent range, but can only attack air), and the fact that hydras are both slow, and have low range that can be upgraded to average really amplifies that problem.
I'm even ok with ranged attacks (and anti-air, as it happens) being a weakness of the zerg race, so long as zerg's mobility is amplified as a strength to make up for it.
On March 13 2011 08:23 Affluenza wrote: Hydra's need to be cheaper...
Zerg is suppose to be a race where you can amass cheaply and Hydra's are not cheap...maybe they should be 25 gas and minerals less...so 75/25...
Hydra's in my mind are just glorified marines...so they should be priced near to a marine...
The biggest hold-back in my mind is not the cost in resources but the cost in supply. They are such a slow and frail unit that I have a hard time imagining how 2 supply could be justified.
I think hydras either need a speed upgrade, or an increase of their range by 1. Zerg really suffers from a lack of long-range units in the game as it is (broodlords are really the only unit with a significant range, and they're slow as hell and can only attack ground, corruptors have decent range, but can only attack air), and the fact that hydras are both slow, and have low range that can be upgraded to average really amplifies that problem.
I'm even ok with ranged attacks (and anti-air, as it happens) being a weakness of the zerg race, so long as zerg's mobility is amplified as a strength to make up for it.
I can definately see where you are coming from and I agree...
Though I think there are atleast 2-3 different solutions which could have a satisfactory outcome for the Hydra...1) is cost reduction 2) food reduction or 3) redesign of hydra entirely (This I feel is too drastic though is not not really necessary given that either 1 or 2 would be enough of a change to alter Z v anything).
On March 12 2011 12:41 DARKHYDRA wrote: I think that is part of the problem, as a zerg your expected to be up on bases so that you can over run the opponent, but isn't that the case for all races in all match-ups? To gain the economic lead? Doesn't that mean that your outplaying your opponent. If he's on 2 bases and your on 5, any half decent units can be used to over run the opponent.
I think that there are a lot of misconceptions about the design of the zerg race that the original SC had, like I believe I read somwhere that blizzard thought zerg units were supposed to be dispossable units that you can just keep throwing at the enemy(probably were the idea for the baneling came from) but that wasn't what the original teams design for them. I believe they made zerg units fast moving + health regen. The health regen was an incentive to save your units that are low on health and the mobility was to make it possible to retreat. This might not have been the way it worked out in pro play but that was the concept.
Yes, Dustin Browder completely misinterpreted Zerg from BW. Instead of having extra bases being a bonus, it is now an absolutely necessity just to even survive a single army vs army battle. According to David Kim at Blizzcon, they intentionally made all Zerg units absolutely horrible because they would be "overpowered with inject larva." As if having injected larva was any different from having macro hatcheries in Broodwar.
I remember that thread, makes me wonder how how he would've fared against a 4gate rush or 5rax reaper. Back then though, and for the early part after release people would just lose to stuff simply because they hadn't seen it before and didn't now how to prepare for it.
On March 12 2011 01:55 Raygun wrote: Why is it that off-creep speed is something people often point to when it comes to Hydras? They move as fast as Zealots, Sentries, Immortals, Marines, Marauders, Ghosts, Roaches, as well higher tech units like Colossi- at least before upgrades start kicking in at mid or mid-late game. Zealots and Roaches get a nice speed upgrade, but many units don't get past the 2.25 speed which Hydralisks move at off-creep.
I play random at the diamond level, so I'm not the best to judge balance. It's just something I've noticed.
This arguments is ridiculous. All those units barring the sentry and ghost, which are defensive spellcasters, have an upgrade to make them faster.
And almost all of them are considered pretty useless without those upgrades (slow roaches, marines without stim, etc.)
Zerg really needs a bulky unit like the roach at T1, any later and zerg would get stomped by most timing pushes, including hellions, reapers and zealots. I can only see the hydra being at T1 if it shared it's tier with the roach, swapping tiers would be disastrous for zerg, they'd have to rely on queens more than usual to defend against the above and their DPS for ground is not very good at all.
If Zerg had Lings/Banes/Roaches/Hydras/Queens all at T1 that might be overkill but it COULD work I just don't know if that's what blizzard wants to do. It would be nice too if this happened, then the there would be some justification for having lurkers return and be at T2.
On March 13 2011 10:42 lilky wrote: hydras are too fragile roaches are too meaty
give hydras 100 hp and roaches 120
BOOORRRRRIIIING
Seriously, what would be the point of two different units in that case? Seriously, with the roach range increase you don't want them to be entirely the same units...
1 supply hydra is crazy btw. It may be bad currently, but it is still damn powerful for its supply. Much more supply efficient than a roach by far.
On March 12 2011 01:55 Raygun wrote: Why is it that off-creep speed is something people often point to when it comes to Hydras? They move as fast as Zealots, Sentries, Immortals, Marines, Marauders, Ghosts, Roaches, as well higher tech units like Colossi- at least before upgrades start kicking in at mid or mid-late game. Zealots and Roaches get a nice speed upgrade, but many units don't get past the 2.25 speed which Hydralisks move at off-creep.
I play random at the diamond level, so I'm not the best to judge balance. It's just something I've noticed.
This arguments is ridiculous. All those units barring the sentry and ghost, which are defensive spellcasters, have an upgrade to make them faster.
And almost all of them are considered pretty useless without those upgrades (slow roaches, marines without stim, etc.)
Hydras also have a speed upgrade and it is called CREEP. Stimpack isnt free either, so why whine about Hydras being slow? At least you dont lose 20% of your health every time you want to run faster. Just learn to spread creep better!
Obviously the gras is always greener on the other side of the fence but you probably want "Stimpack speed off creep without any drawbacks".
On March 13 2011 11:48 emc wrote: Zerg really needs a bulky unit like the roach at T1, any later and zerg would get stomped by most timing pushes, including hellions, reapers and zealots. I can only see the hydra being at T1 if it shared it's tier with the roach, swapping tiers would be disastrous for zerg, they'd have to rely on queens more than usual to defend against the above and their DPS for ground is not very good at all.
If Zerg had Lings/Banes/Roaches/Hydras/Queens all at T1 that might be overkill but it COULD work I just don't know if that's what blizzard wants to do. It would be nice too if this happened, then the there would be some justification for having lurkers return and be at T2.
yeah bumbing roach to tier 2 might be a problem, and having both the hydra and the roach at tier one seems kinda silly. But I think its worth testing the hydra at tier one as 1 supply 75/25 with appropriate stats. I dont think the reaper in its current form would be a problem though since they cant take free shots a hydras due to range and while they do bonus damage to hydras they dont take hits well either. I cant think of anything else that might be a threat that early.
On March 12 2011 01:55 Raygun wrote: Why is it that off-creep speed is something people often point to when it comes to Hydras? They move as fast as Zealots, Sentries, Immortals, Marines, Marauders, Ghosts, Roaches, as well higher tech units like Colossi- at least before upgrades start kicking in at mid or mid-late game. Zealots and Roaches get a nice speed upgrade, but many units don't get past the 2.25 speed which Hydralisks move at off-creep.
I play random at the diamond level, so I'm not the best to judge balance. It's just something I've noticed.
This arguments is ridiculous. All those units barring the sentry and ghost, which are defensive spellcasters, have an upgrade to make them faster.
And almost all of them are considered pretty useless without those upgrades (slow roaches, marines without stim, etc.)
Hydras also have a speed upgrade and it is called CREEP. Stimpack isnt free either, so why whine about Hydras being slow? At least you dont lose 20% of your health every time you want to run faster. Just learn to spread creep better!
Obviously the gras is always greener on the other side of the fence but you probably want "Stimpack speed off creep without any drawbacks".
I wish i could not let you use stimpack by just walking around with a detector, destroying 10min of creep spread in 20 sec. :|
On March 12 2011 01:55 Raygun wrote: Why is it that off-creep speed is something people often point to when it comes to Hydras? They move as fast as Zealots, Sentries, Immortals, Marines, Marauders, Ghosts, Roaches, as well higher tech units like Colossi- at least before upgrades start kicking in at mid or mid-late game. Zealots and Roaches get a nice speed upgrade, but many units don't get past the 2.25 speed which Hydralisks move at off-creep.
I play random at the diamond level, so I'm not the best to judge balance. It's just something I've noticed.
This arguments is ridiculous. All those units barring the sentry and ghost, which are defensive spellcasters, have an upgrade to make them faster.
And almost all of them are considered pretty useless without those upgrades (slow roaches, marines without stim, etc.)
Hydras also have a speed upgrade and it is called CREEP. Stimpack isnt free either, so why whine about Hydras being slow? At least you dont lose 20% of your health every time you want to run faster. Just learn to spread creep better!
Obviously the gras is always greener on the other side of the fence but you probably want "Stimpack speed off creep without any drawbacks".
I wish i could not let you use stimpack by just walking around with a detector, destroying 10min of creep spread in 20 sec. :|
Creep spread simply isn't an argument. With a single detector you can eliminate, like this dude is saying, 10 minutes of work in a few seconds. It also takes most of the game to offensively spread creep to your opponent's base, a lot longer than it takes to get hydras.
And you speak about stim as if its just a speed upgrade, and not a ridiculous attack speed boost that gives units batshit insane DPS. Yeah I want decent speed off creep - in the form of an upgrade. Like almost every other attacking unit in every other race has - it makes no sense for Hydra not to have it.
On March 12 2011 01:55 Raygun wrote: Why is it that off-creep speed is something people often point to when it comes to Hydras? They move as fast as Zealots, Sentries, Immortals, Marines, Marauders, Ghosts, Roaches, as well higher tech units like Colossi- at least before upgrades start kicking in at mid or mid-late game. Zealots and Roaches get a nice speed upgrade, but many units don't get past the 2.25 speed which Hydralisks move at off-creep.
I play random at the diamond level, so I'm not the best to judge balance. It's just something I've noticed.
This arguments is ridiculous. All those units barring the sentry and ghost, which are defensive spellcasters, have an upgrade to make them faster.
And almost all of them are considered pretty useless without those upgrades (slow roaches, marines without stim, etc.)
Hydras also have a speed upgrade and it is called CREEP. Stimpack isnt free either, so why whine about Hydras being slow? At least you dont lose 20% of your health every time you want to run faster. Just learn to spread creep better!
Obviously the gras is always greener on the other side of the fence but you probably want "Stimpack speed off creep without any drawbacks".
Ok, so creep is certainly an argument, but you have to think about the practicality of things. Say we're up against Colossusing players. So rather than engage him directly, I'm going to do counterattacks and fancy jazz like that.
Here's the issue with creep though. It's really more of a defensive, territorial thing. You can't do quick counterattacks with creep. Even if you do some awesome overlord spreading and such, the counterattack is simply not going to be very fast. It'll certainly be in time for the opponent to catch your hydras offguard and immediately kill them. If your opponent cuts you off, it's impossible to run away without something like a nydus worm.
With zerglings and even roaches, it's perfectly viable to constantly avoid the opponent's army. But with hydras, it just isn't really a sensible option.
On March 12 2011 01:55 Raygun wrote: Why is it that off-creep speed is something people often point to when it comes to Hydras? They move as fast as Zealots, Sentries, Immortals, Marines, Marauders, Ghosts, Roaches, as well higher tech units like Colossi- at least before upgrades start kicking in at mid or mid-late game. Zealots and Roaches get a nice speed upgrade, but many units don't get past the 2.25 speed which Hydralisks move at off-creep.
I play random at the diamond level, so I'm not the best to judge balance. It's just something I've noticed.
This arguments is ridiculous. All those units barring the sentry and ghost, which are defensive spellcasters, have an upgrade to make them faster.
And almost all of them are considered pretty useless without those upgrades (slow roaches, marines without stim, etc.)
Hydras also have a speed upgrade and it is called CREEP. Stimpack isnt free either, so why whine about Hydras being slow? At least you dont lose 20% of your health every time you want to run faster. Just learn to spread creep better!
Obviously the gras is always greener on the other side of the fence but you probably want "Stimpack speed off creep without any drawbacks".
Ok, so creep is certainly an argument, but you have to think about the practicality of things. Say we're up against Colossusing players. So rather than engage him directly, I'm going to do counterattacks and fancy jazz like that.
Here's the issue with creep though. It's really more of a defensive, territorial thing. You can't do quick counterattacks with creep. Even if you do some awesome overlord spreading and such, the counterattack is simply not going to be very fast. It'll certainly be in time for the opponent to catch your hydras offguard and immediately kill them. If your opponent cuts you off, it's impossible to run away without something like a nydus worm.
With zerglings and even roaches, it's perfectly viable to constantly avoid the opponent's army. But with hydras, it just isn't really a sensible option.
On March 12 2011 01:55 Raygun wrote: Why is it that off-creep speed is something people often point to when it comes to Hydras? They move as fast as Zealots, Sentries, Immortals, Marines, Marauders, Ghosts, Roaches, as well higher tech units like Colossi- at least before upgrades start kicking in at mid or mid-late game. Zealots and Roaches get a nice speed upgrade, but many units don't get past the 2.25 speed which Hydralisks move at off-creep.
I play random at the diamond level, so I'm not the best to judge balance. It's just something I've noticed.
This arguments is ridiculous. All those units barring the sentry and ghost, which are defensive spellcasters, have an upgrade to make them faster.
And almost all of them are considered pretty useless without those upgrades (slow roaches, marines without stim, etc.)
Hydras also have a speed upgrade and it is called CREEP. Stimpack isnt free either, so why whine about Hydras being slow? At least you dont lose 20% of your health every time you want to run faster. Just learn to spread creep better!
Obviously the gras is always greener on the other side of the fence but you probably want "Stimpack speed off creep without any drawbacks".
Ok, so creep is certainly an argument, but you have to think about the practicality of things. Say we're up against Colossusing players. So rather than engage him directly, I'm going to do counterattacks and fancy jazz like that.
Here's the issue with creep though. It's really more of a defensive, territorial thing. You can't do quick counterattacks with creep. Even if you do some awesome overlord spreading and such, the counterattack is simply not going to be very fast. It'll certainly be in time for the opponent to catch your hydras offguard and immediately kill them. If your opponent cuts you off, it's impossible to run away without something like a nydus worm.
With zerglings and even roaches, it's perfectly viable to constantly avoid the opponent's army. But with hydras, it just isn't really a sensible option.
i try that and every game turns into a base trade
How do you get a basetrade with a nydus worm? Just run into the worm to come back and defend. Unless you mean without the nydus worm...
I feel like the hydra is just not being used correctly...it seems to me that the hydra needs to be that unit which gets sprinkled into the mix as apposed to "allocated" space for. What i mean is this, if you're building a roach hydra army, for every 5 roaches throw in a hydra. They will in small numbers effectively increase the DPS of your army.
On March 14 2011 06:22 Pycckuu wrote: I feel like the hydra is just not being used correctly...it seems to me that the hydra needs to be that unit which gets sprinkled into the mix as apposed to "allocated" space for. What i mean is this, if you're building a roach hydra army, for every 5 roaches throw in a hydra. They will in small numbers effectively increase the DPS of your army.
The problem with an argument like this is that if only a small amount of hydras is beneficial then it might be better to skip them altogether and save the ton resources spent getting the hydra den and the range upgrade.
On March 14 2011 06:22 Pycckuu wrote: I feel like the hydra is just not being used correctly...it seems to me that the hydra needs to be that unit which gets sprinkled into the mix as apposed to "allocated" space for. What i mean is this, if you're building a roach hydra army, for every 5 roaches throw in a hydra. They will in small numbers effectively increase the DPS of your army.
Problem: The allocation of resources/supply to the hydralisk unit represents a fundamental misuse of said unit Solution: Stop building hydralisks
On March 14 2011 06:22 Pycckuu wrote: I feel like the hydra is just not being used correctly...it seems to me that the hydra needs to be that unit which gets sprinkled into the mix as apposed to "allocated" space for. What i mean is this, if you're building a roach hydra army, for every 5 roaches throw in a hydra. They will in small numbers effectively increase the DPS of your army.
Hydras shouldnt be that much harder to use correctly than other units. Plus its a much more vague and difficult way to find a use for hydras, I dont think they should just be some kind of garnish for your army.
I'd take a small hit to hydra damage and a bonus to hydralisk speed, to be honest. They can't keep up with your roving zerg warband, and honestly that's the biggest hindrance to them. Zerg attack units have huge mobility apart from the hydralisk.
I do not think that the Hydra is a dying unit but that it indeed need some changes, either a small HP increase or speed upgrade or something like this. The Hydra still has a lot of value in ZvP imo and is seen sometimes in ZvZ to complement roaches, which is a nice thing to have. Furthermore the Hydra can work ZvT in combinations with infestors against a Bioball without tanks occasionally. So buff it but not too much. The more I think about it and the bigger the maps will be the more I think that the Hydra has to be either faster or needs a speed upgrade. Just my 2 cents.
Well the Hydra will keep dying when we have more decently big maps, because the immobility will be an even heavier problem (which doesnt mean, that big maps are bad).
With the roach and the Hydra beeing at 2 supply u will always have a small army compared to Terran and protoss, even on 200/200. I mean this is a known fact and its generally no problem, when u can reproduce. The Hydra is just so gas heavy and only effectiv in some very rare situations. (Basicly just Gateway only army and even they can kill Hydras lategame). I think a cost reduction in gas to 25 gas and an increase in Mineralcost (+50) would lead to an overall better gameplay for Zergs. This would give the minerals more worth at 3+ bases. The less gascost just represent what the Hydra is, its not a unit worth 50 gas. The other thing is a Hydraspeed upgrade. As the meta-game progresses the speed advantage of Zerg became more and more important. The Hydra is lacking heavily here. The biggest problem is that even if the Zerg has a better army or an even army, the Hydras need to much time to get a concave to DPS.
These are some obvious solutions to the Hydra problem, which u can call fix. But let me just go into a dream land and completly redesign the Hydra. Hydra same stats as now. Same cost as now. HydraDen on T1. Hydra Speedupgrade on Lair. Hydra +2 Rangeupgrade on Hive.
This would justify the cost and supply. And the Hydra would be a more refined units, which requieres the Zerg to commit to tech a little bit more. As a Zerg player u dont really decide u need that tech, because most of it is a must have to use the unit in anyway. Also the roles would be more refined on the different tech levels. T1 Anti Air(no explanation needed), defensive DPS. But hard to fast attack because its slow and has relativ small range. Any Zerg knows that the Hydra is not very strong without range. It is not the gateway eating monster. Also it is worth to get against Terran early against non stimmed MM. T2: Hey now we can make aggresive moves in T2 that is not Allin or Roach timing. More options is good and with the still small range it is obviously weak to certain things. T3T3: Now it has Range7 and Speed. Yes now we have a dmg dealer that can attack earlier, form a concave but is still vulnerable against storm and collossus. Vulnerable is huge improvment compared to earlier Hydras against HT/Collossus lategame. Also I believe it offers Hydra play against Terran, since fast Range 7 Hydra are able to approach tanks/thors easier and form a concave while Zerglings tank fe.
Well enough dreaming, but I think this would really help the game.
On March 14 2011 10:40 Orzabal wrote: If it fragile, It has to be fast.
Hydra are fragil AND slow. This is the problem.
On creep they are good. But expand creep take time and apm. Destroy creep cost A-move with an observer. This is another part of the problem.
I couldn't agree more.
Lings are fragile but at least mobile. Every time we attack with hydra we're pretty much committing them to either succeeding or dying, there's no retreat.
On March 14 2011 10:40 Orzabal wrote: If it fragile, It has to be fast.
Hydra are fragil AND slow. This is the problem.
On creep they are good. But expand creep take time and apm. Destroy creep cost A-move with an observer. This is another part of the problem.
I couldn't agree more.
Lings are fragile but at least mobile. Every time we attack with hydra we're pretty much committing them to either succeeding or dying, there's no retreat.
It's actually a fundamental flaw in their design.
I can't think of another combat unit in any game that I've played that's both fragile, AND slow (and to top it off, the Hydra is classified as a 'light' unit). The fast and fragile class of unit is an intuitive design function that the Hydralisk simply doesn't follow.
On March 14 2011 10:40 Orzabal wrote: If it fragile, It has to be fast.
Hydra are fragil AND slow. This is the problem.
On creep they are good. But expand creep take time and apm. Destroy creep cost A-move with an observer. This is another part of the problem.
I partially disagree with your first line. fragility, speed and damage dealing capability should be taken into account not just the first two points. Take tanks, slow, fairly fragile and can deal monstrous damage from a long way. On the whole I agree though.
Here's my opinion: Hydra's are a glass cannon and also immobile. This means that they cannot get the the battle effectively and will die before being able to effectively deal a reasonable amount of damage. To circumvent this the roach is introduced as a wall, the problem comes with AoE. Collosus and tanks have 9 and 13 range and splash, due to the low hitpoint total of the hydra AoE is extremely effiecient at dealing with them, and due to the long range the roach wall is of far far less use. Zerg is a race that is meant to poke and prod in many locations and rarely come to a head on battle. This means that their units should be fast be able to engage and disengage easily with or without creep. Hyrdras don't fit with this because it's extremely difficult for them to retreat in the face of an army.
My idea of a possible solution: More speed and range, implement it as an upgrade or inbuilt but they need to be able to retreat from an army and have enough range to deal it's damage without getting shredded by AoE in order to be an effective unit.
I would not recommend a nerf I believe it was Jinro who said ''What Blizzard is doing doesn't make it easier for people to stay alive it makes it easier for them to die.''
In Broodwar there was no "creep spread" largely because the mechanics werent in the game and spreading creep with sunken colonies is impractical for the most part. For SC2 Blizzard came up with a neat gimmick which is the creep tumor and the speed boost on creep. Sadly many Zerg players are a bit lazy with spreading their creep so they miss out on this. But is this really unfair given that the main units compared with the Hydra have their speed boost attached to a condition as well? I think not.
If Terrans have their Medivacs accompany the bio army to heal them after a stim and during a fight, why cant Zerg use their Overlords for the same purpose? Zealots cant even decide to run faster when they want it, they need to have a target to charge. IMO the Zerg players need to stop whining and learn to spread their creep more.
If Hydras get a speed upgrade we are back to Broodwar days where you spread creep with turrets and all the new nifty mechanics have to go .... including the moving defensive structures.
Guys, I am a 3200 SEA, 3450 NA random player. I secretly hate rolling zerg due to the lack of versatility; was about to create a topic on the State of Zerg with qualitative analysis but due to the 3 day limit, here I am replying this thread.
It is irrefutable that there is a lack of hydra play in all Zerg matchups, however we have to look at the intent of blizzard when creating the hydra. Blizzard gave hydras a huge speed boost on creep and it has the highest dps of the zerg arsenal. However, at the current state of the game, not many players are able to effectively spread creep like robots i.e Moon,Ret,Idra . And even then, it is easily countered by scans of terran (watch nestea vs MVP games in the last GSL - MVP effectively denied any/all creep spread by the best zerg in the world) and observers of the protoss.
In Blizzard's intent, hydras are meant for strategic play. Viable with good creep spread mechanics, drops and defensive purposes. But then, the retarded upgrade (+1 range for 150/150 lol) which costs more than stim, same cost as blink and for 50/50 more, colossus gets +3. Is it me or is the hydra short changed?
If hydras were to be used strategically i.e. FOXmoon - IEM, as drops and two pronged dps monsters, the range upgrade should be scrapped for making no sense in hydra play. Instead, a 150/150 upgrade for 30-50% attack speed bonus on creep would be more viable. Looking at statistics alone, you may think wow thats imbalanced, but I kid you not, its effective dps still be lesser than a pack of marines with stim. Hydras have a much larger collision size than marines and do not have instant attack or smart targeting. The effective area required for a 80 food army of hydras with 6 range to completely destroy a terran army would be too ridiculous to assume into standard games/maps. Besides, stim provides 50% attack rate increase on demand whilst this is strategic and situational.
Having a 150/150 attack rate upgrade for hydra opens up more exciting dynamics into zerg play. Hydras can be powerfully defensive due to creep in bases, can be viable in nydus play due to natural creep generation of nydus and drop play with overlord spewing creep. It makes multiple hydra drop harass much more viable and still does not break the game as an overlord only carries 4 hydras. Not only are overlords the slowest transport unit in game, but a zerg has to get up to Lair and then double research the upgrades for the tech to be available. Then, hydra den and the new upgrade would have to be researched. It suffices to say that mid game zerg would then be alot more than muta harass or silent macro.
An unexplored region of nydus use would be nydus flanking. Using the nydus worm may be a big investment, however with the creep attack bonus on hydra, it is more than ever before more viable. A two pronged flank with nydus on a protoss death ball would both be tough to pull off mechanically and strategically but extremely exciting to viewers.
Hydras at 6 range do not differ much from hydras at 7 range. A speed increase off creep would just turn them into roaches with high dps. Why not improve the intent of hydras and improve their usage on creep. This punishes Terrans and Protosses who do not deny creep tumor and would be far better than the lame high movespeed bonus hydra gets.
Please do consider 150/150 50% attack rate bonus for hydras in place of +1 range =)
On March 14 2011 17:44 Rabiator wrote: In Broodwar there was no "creep spread" largely because the mechanics werent in the game and spreading creep with sunken colonies is impractical for the most part. For SC2 Blizzard came up with a neat gimmick which is the creep tumor and the speed boost on creep. Sadly many Zerg players are a bit lazy with spreading their creep so they miss out on this. But is this really unfair given that the main units compared with the Hydra have their speed boost attached to a condition as well? I think not.
If Terrans have their Medivacs accompany the bio army to heal them after a stim and during a fight, why cant Zerg use their Overlords for the same purpose? Zealots cant even decide to run faster when they want it, they need to have a target to charge. IMO the Zerg players need to stop whining and learn to spread their creep more.
If Hydras get a speed upgrade we are back to Broodwar days where you spread creep with turrets and all the new nifty mechanics have to go .... including the moving defensive structures.
I hate seeing people say "OH just bring Overlords dood!" If your Overlords die then you get supply blocked and then Zerg can no longer remax (AKA what Zerg needs to do to win games). And the comment that Zerg players just need to stop crying and spread creep is so ignorant it hurts. Maybe you don't see players spread creep that much, but I can promise you ,while it isn't perfect, that alot of Z players DO spread creep.
Make Medivacs cost supply, then you have a post that works.
Yeah i will agree with you. I never actually took into consideration the bonus damage from fungal onto roaches completely changing ZvZ. However, i dont feel they will really die out in ZvP, i still feel hydas mix very well with broodlords, that being said, seeing broodlords is pretty rare :<
I don't think Hydras are being neglected because they're bad. I think they're being neglected because they're a large investment in something whose utility only ever depreciates. They're a 'win now or lose later' unit, and Zerg's unforgiving enough already.
Thing about the Zergling versus Terran. You get some, then you get speed and their utility skyrockets. Then you get some banelings - another big buff. Then you spread creep further and get their speed upgrade and maybe add in some infestors. Finally you can add ultralisks, to make the ultimate "your ground army is boned" avalanche of death. At every stage, a reasonably modest investment preserves or increases the value of the resources you've ploughed in already. Or you might go via mutalisks, to exploit the synergies there.
Think about the marine. You get some, and then you can rent a bunker (for free, with a security deposit) to massively increase their ability to defend or attack. Then you get a health upgrade and stim. Add a handful of tanks, or a couple of medivacs, or some marauders to soak up banelings, and just as with the zergling the utility of that core unit continues to rise. Thus marines are always worth making. How many ZvTs have you seen where the 'winning' units - the payload finally delivered into the enemy base by whatever means and at whatever time - are marines? I've seen a lot.
It's the same with Protoss gateway units: blink and charge, a small number of sentries, Colossus or Immortals - all the support units and upgrades synergise well to keep gateway units relevant and increase their value.
Now come back to the hydralisk. It's not a support unit: it doesn't improve the utility of other units when present in small numbers. As a frontline fighting unit it has a window of opportunity against Protoss that gets slammed shut by Colossus, to the point where Protoss actively try to make a Zerg tech to hydra in order to kill him more easily. Against Terran the pre-tank window is so small, and so dangerous to try and hit, that it's not even worth going for.
Nor are there any Zerg support units that greatly increase the utility of hydras or bring them back into the game. Once there are tanks or colossus on the field, the resources you've sunk into hydra permanently plummet in value. There's no next step. I don't need to tell anyone about how Broodwar successfully overcomes this: an upgrade that completely redefines the hydra's purpose, makes it useful in small numbers, delays pushes and forces tech. But what about SC2?
Regretfully setting aside the possiblity of morphing Hydras into something else, or cutting them in half and putting them at Hatchery tech, there still needs to be a next step, something to make investing in hydra less of an all-or-nothing commitment. I just can't think what that could be right now
First, as Hydras need to do the damage in the 2 minutes after they become available, the range upgrade should be removed and Hydras should get range 6 from the start. Hydras with range 6 are not so dangerous that that tech has to be delayed artificially, like with the Colossus range upgrade.
The second step addresses Umpteen's point. As the value of hydras drastically decreases in time because of Colossus, Storm, Tanks and upgraded marines, there should be some compensation, and at the moment there are no units to fill that role. A lot of players wish for a speed upgrade, but in my opinion that is the wrong approach. Zerg unit upgrades are already dominated by speed upgrades that I am getting sick of them.
No, instead I could imagine a +2 range upgrade at Hive tech, increasing the Hydras range to 8. That would help immensely against Colossus, as with 8 against 9 there is a situation where micro is viable. Also at 8 range it is possible to threaten wall-ins, drop on cliffs to harass, support Broodlords with anti-air. A somewhat slow glass cannon range 6 unit in the mid game which becomes range 8 in the late game might just be the niche in which the Hydra fits: an artillery unit.
And Hive is such a late tech and big investment that the Terran or Protoss player can prepare. Siege tanks still dominate Hydras, Marines and Marauders can stim and move in range, Hydras still cannot move out of a Storm and Chargelots are a great way to deal with small raiding parties of Hydras. Of course it is more difficult to deal with range 8 Hydras, but I believe Protoss and Terrans still have the tools to deal with them, it just no longer is a roflstomp.
Zomg; I think range 8 Hive Hydra might be a bit more deadly than I had envisaged Basically nothing except already-sieged tanks and colossus would be able to engage them; everything else would just dissolve beneath a withering hail of stacked DPS. With a fungal stuck on them for good measure.
No, I don't think that would work out. It's OK for tanks and colossus and broodlords to have that kind of ground range because they're support units: bulky, expensive and vulnerable. Hydra aren't support units.
Absolutely, though, I think the answer is in devising a next step for them, either through strategy or tweaks to the game.
EDIT: Although Lurkers aren't on the table, maybe the answer does lie in making some further use of burrow:
Drones -> Hide from drops
Lings -> plant hidden scouts and delay expansions.
Banelings -> baneling bombs.
Roach -> Burrow movement (forcefields, getting into range) + healing
Infestor -> Burrow movement, launch infested Terrans, attack mineral lines
Ultras -> Lulz
Hydra -> ???
Hell, why not give Hydra an underground attack without requiring a Lurker upgrade? Doesn't need to be AoE or anything; something akin to the old Sunken Colony attack would suffice. That would let them stack better with Roaches, with good micro/baiting. Maybe it only works on creep, too.
On March 14 2011 17:44 Rabiator wrote: In Broodwar there was no "creep spread" largely because the mechanics werent in the game and spreading creep with sunken colonies is impractical for the most part. For SC2 Blizzard came up with a neat gimmick which is the creep tumor and the speed boost on creep. Sadly many Zerg players are a bit lazy with spreading their creep so they miss out on this. But is this really unfair given that the main units compared with the Hydra have their speed boost attached to a condition as well? I think not.
If Terrans have their Medivacs accompany the bio army to heal them after a stim and during a fight, why cant Zerg use their Overlords for the same purpose? Zealots cant even decide to run faster when they want it, they need to have a target to charge. IMO the Zerg players need to stop whining and learn to spread their creep more.
If Hydras get a speed upgrade we are back to Broodwar days where you spread creep with turrets and all the new nifty mechanics have to go .... including the moving defensive structures.
I hate seeing people say "OH just bring Overlords dood!" If your Overlords die then you get supply blocked and then Zerg can no longer remax (AKA what Zerg needs to do to win games). And the comment that Zerg players just need to stop crying and spread creep is so ignorant it hurts. Maybe you don't see players spread creep that much, but I can promise you ,while it isn't perfect, that alot of Z players DO spread creep.
Make Medivacs cost supply, then you have a post that works.
With an argument like that you will never ever spread out your Overlords for scouting because they might die to an air unit, right? Makes sense because you have only just enough Overlords to supply your army, right? Having Overlords block your units from view wont prevent an opponent from targeting them ... obviously.
One of the arguments was that you cant flee with Hydras when sh.. hits the fan, but Overlords spread BEHIND your army will not be in the line of fire and I think people might prefer losing an Overlord to losing a few Hydras.
One of my favorite builds is Hydra/Roach/Ling. If you have been doing your research properely, a +1/+1 army will be very effective against most opponents. It is very versitile, with the Roaches acting as the wall between the enemy and the Hydras. Roaches can take a beating and protect your Hydras long enough for their DPS to actually matter in a fight. The Lings keep your opponent herded where you want them to be (using the Lings to prevent them from escaping).
It's not the most mobile of armies off-creep, but on-creep, it is very solid. Creep management is a sometimes neglected strategy of some Zerg players. The Creep Tumor is an important tool of the Zerg arsenal. It helps to control the map, and that coupled with the Overlord's creep drop ability, it can very qucikly dictate where the opponent can expand, and where the opponent will fight battles. If you also drop a couple Overlords right over the battle and have them drop creep, the Hydras can effectively chase your opponent for a few more seconds if they retreat, and those couple seconds allow for a few more shots.
Hydras also make good expansion guards when coupled with a few Spine Crawlers. 4-5 Hydras at a new expansion + 2 Queens + 2 Spine Crawlers (usually my 3rd or 4th) is a good defense that will stand up to many raiding parties.
It is a bit more mineral heavy than Mutas (175/75 for a Roach/Hydra and 100/100 for Muta), but I find that I ususally have a surplus of minerals over gas at Lair tech.
Does anyone else yearn for a 1 supply unit? I wish Hydra could be that unit.
It feels like in the Roach, we have a big, beefy siege unit, which makes sense at T2.
Why can't a Hydra be a cheap (maybe 75/25?), low damage, fast unit thats T1 and is 1 supply? How amazing would that be? Would solve Zerg's complete lack of AA aside from the Queen in the early game, and would give us something versatile other than lings that we can mass as a core unit.
Rather than speeding them up, what about slowing everything else down? it would make them a ton better against air, and would synergise well with lings, and ultras.
I haven't really given this too much thought, it was just something i was thinking about while laddering last night.
Ok guys how do you spread creep onto your opponent? You know when you get to that point where your opponents army can see a new tumor being thrown down and can easily snipe it without you being able to engage on creep, how do you get past that?
Its is unrealistic to expect a zerg player to always fight on creep. Bring overlord to the battle? Do you think the opponent sees an attack coming? And you can't just use creep to retreat you need to use it during the fight otherwise your hydras will not perform as well.
Also there is no window were you have hydras and terrans don't have tanks, tanks are earlier tech not to mention if you tech straight to hydras you lose to any early timings(or anything other than 2port banshee)
On March 15 2011 10:45 Subversion wrote: If a player is even halfway competent he will easily keep creep well away from his base.
So true. Creep shouldn't be a requirement, but rather a bonus given to anal Zerg players. And personally seeing how easily Hydras are fried i don't see Blizzards OP fear that mobile Hydras would break the game.
On March 15 2011 10:18 fusihunter wrote: What about giving the hydra a slowing attack?
Rather than speeding them up, what about slowing everything else down? it would make them a ton better against air, and would synergise well with lings, and ultras.
I haven't really given this too much thought, it was just something i was thinking about while laddering last night.
Thoughts?
Why don't we just give zerg the marauder? Then give terran hydras in marauders place. We can even keep costs the same - 100/25 for terran hydra and 100/50 for zerg marauder. I would welcome this change as a zerg!.
On March 15 2011 10:18 fusihunter wrote: What about giving the hydra a slowing attack?
Rather than speeding them up, what about slowing everything else down? it would make them a ton better against air, and would synergise well with lings, and ultras.
I haven't really given this too much thought, it was just something i was thinking about while laddering last night.
Thoughts?
Haha, did anyone else read this post, think "boy that'd make Hydras pretty OP," then seconds later realize that we already have that unit in the marauder? Granted a hydra having slow vs air targets (or only air targets...or maybe even bonus range vs air only) would be pretty interesting.
I would like to see more Zergs do Quick Lair to Hydra vs Protoss and do drop/nydus then switch to mass roach once colossus tech gets up. So Hydras will still have a role in ZvP but not in other matchups... its sad because I would like to have a ground unit that could attack air...
To save the Hydra, it needs just that tad bit more late game survivability or maybe even an ability which makes it "leap" forward/backwards 4-5 tiles sort of like blink but if they are blocked they do not move through the object. This could be used as both an offensive ability and defensive ability one for ambushing the other for fleeing (or the same ability but you need to make them turn around)
On March 14 2011 17:44 Rabiator wrote: In Broodwar there was no "creep spread" largely because the mechanics werent in the game and spreading creep with sunken colonies is impractical for the most part. For SC2 Blizzard came up with a neat gimmick which is the creep tumor and the speed boost on creep. Sadly many Zerg players are a bit lazy with spreading their creep so they miss out on this. But is this really unfair given that the main units compared with the Hydra have their speed boost attached to a condition as well? I think not.
If Terrans have their Medivacs accompany the bio army to heal them after a stim and during a fight, why cant Zerg use their Overlords for the same purpose? Zealots cant even decide to run faster when they want it, they need to have a target to charge. IMO the Zerg players need to stop whining and learn to spread their creep more.
If Hydras get a speed upgrade we are back to Broodwar days where you spread creep with turrets and all the new nifty mechanics have to go .... including the moving defensive structures.
I hate seeing people say "OH just bring Overlords dood!" If your Overlords die then you get supply blocked and then Zerg can no longer remax (AKA what Zerg needs to do to win games). And the comment that Zerg players just need to stop crying and spread creep is so ignorant it hurts. Maybe you don't see players spread creep that much, but I can promise you ,while it isn't perfect, that alot of Z players DO spread creep.
Make Medivacs cost supply, then you have a post that works.
With an argument like that you will never ever spread out your Overlords for scouting because they might die to an air unit, right? Makes sense because you have only just enough Overlords to supply your army, right? Having Overlords block your units from view wont prevent an opponent from targeting them ... obviously.
One of the arguments was that you cant flee with Hydras when sh.. hits the fan, but Overlords spread BEHIND your army will not be in the line of fire and I think people might prefer losing an Overlord to losing a few Hydras.
This is a very fair point. Have your OLs behind your army and as you flee your OVs can flee as well and the creep will slowly dissolve, leaving more than enough time for the hydras to use it. The difficulty, of course, would be properly spreading OLs at the same time as you control your army in a battle, as well as having enough of them that the creep would spread fast enough to be of use by the time the battle is over.
It's a neat idea that I'll need to experiment with myself, thanks for that thought.
On March 14 2011 17:44 Rabiator wrote: In Broodwar there was no "creep spread" largely because the mechanics werent in the game and spreading creep with sunken colonies is impractical for the most part. For SC2 Blizzard came up with a neat gimmick which is the creep tumor and the speed boost on creep. Sadly many Zerg players are a bit lazy with spreading their creep so they miss out on this. But is this really unfair given that the main units compared with the Hydra have their speed boost attached to a condition as well? I think not.
If Terrans have their Medivacs accompany the bio army to heal them after a stim and during a fight, why cant Zerg use their Overlords for the same purpose? Zealots cant even decide to run faster when they want it, they need to have a target to charge. IMO the Zerg players need to stop whining and learn to spread their creep more.
If Hydras get a speed upgrade we are back to Broodwar days where you spread creep with turrets and all the new nifty mechanics have to go .... including the moving defensive structures.
I hate seeing people say "OH just bring Overlords dood!" If your Overlords die then you get supply blocked and then Zerg can no longer remax (AKA what Zerg needs to do to win games). And the comment that Zerg players just need to stop crying and spread creep is so ignorant it hurts. Maybe you don't see players spread creep that much, but I can promise you ,while it isn't perfect, that alot of Z players DO spread creep.
Make Medivacs cost supply, then you have a post that works.
With an argument like that you will never ever spread out your Overlords for scouting because they might die to an air unit, right? Makes sense because you have only just enough Overlords to supply your army, right? Having Overlords block your units from view wont prevent an opponent from targeting them ... obviously.
One of the arguments was that you cant flee with Hydras when sh.. hits the fan, but Overlords spread BEHIND your army will not be in the line of fire and I think people might prefer losing an Overlord to losing a few Hydras.
This is a very fair point. Have your OLs behind your army and as you flee your OVs can flee as well and the creep will slowly dissolve, leaving more than enough time for the hydras to use it. The difficulty, of course, would be properly spreading OLs at the same time as you control your army in a battle, as well as having enough of them that the creep would spread fast enough to be of use by the time the battle is over.
It's a neat idea that I'll need to experiment with myself, thanks for that thought.
I understand the argument he's trying to make, but the rate of which creep spreads via overlords makes it so that this isn't the best solution. Its ultimately still a defensive posture -- if the protoss/terran suddenly decides to retreat or use their long range weaponry (tanks/colossi), zerg still can't press an attack because overlords don't spread creep fast enough.
At best it helps with retreat, and even then you're also risking the loss of overlords (don't forget they take up larva).
Where exactly would +0.75 off speed put hydras in compaison with say, speed roaches? Cuz, that upgrade might still not increase hydra survivability versus FF+colossus combo right?
.75 speed added, to both on creep and off creep movement, would put them at the same speed off creep as speed roaches (3), on creep they would be slightly faster then roaches with a speed of 4.125 vs a roach's speed of 3.9.
On March 15 2011 11:02 Snoyarc wrote: I would like to see more Zergs do Quick Lair to Hydra vs Protoss and do drop/nydus then switch to mass roach once colossus tech gets up. So Hydras will still have a role in ZvP but not in other matchups... its sad because I would like to have a ground unit that could attack air...
So Quick Hydra+Drop/Nydus UNTIL Collossi hit the field...?
Boy, get your timings right. To make this effective it needs time and a ton of gas. Colossi will hit the field around the time this gets done. The only reason why we have a small timing window, where the P has only 1-2 Colossi maybe without range, is because we can maxout very cheap with roaches in addition to the Hydras. And what is quick lair? Nearly EVERY Zerg spends his first 100Gas on Ling speed, which is with no doubt a must have to survive early attacks. And the second 100 gas go into the lair... The only way to get Lair quicker is to put the first 100 Gas into Lair which is not viable at all: - Its even more weak to early attacks. - Your have basicly NO possibility to punish Protoss players for early mistakes. - You dont have the Gas income at the time the Lair finishs to support any lair tech units or upgrades.
Hydras have a role in ZvP but its so narrow, that u can also skip them and be succesfull and btw... Hydras can attack air WTF?!?
Problem is pretty simple and someone put it very well here.
The hydra is a combo of slow AND fragile AND relatively short range, all this with not-so-impressive DPS when compared to marines, for a 2 food 50 gas unit.
It's really pretty terrible all around and does need some kind of help imo.
On March 15 2011 10:32 DARKHYDRA wrote: Ok guys how do you spread creep onto your opponent? You know when you get to that point where your opponents army can see a new tumor being thrown down and can easily snipe it without you being able to engage on creep, how do you get past that?
Its is unrealistic to expect a zerg player to always fight on creep. Bring overlord to the battle? Do you think the opponent sees an attack coming? And you can't just use creep to retreat you need to use it during the fight otherwise your hydras will not perform as well.
Also there is no window were you have hydras and terrans don't have tanks, tanks are earlier tech not to mention if you tech straight to hydras you lose to any early timings(or anything other than 2port banshee)
Also, what about if they're actually not terrible and use a scan or observer to kill it them all? Once you're out of silver league, good luck playing someone who won't kill tumors.
wow this thread is still alive ... anyway compared to bw you see the ultraliks even rarer then the hydralisk, you should also discuss about the death of the ultraliks and don't just forget the unit you saw just every game except zvz. Maybe terrans should discuss the death of the siege tank as well. So sad to see all these units used more rarely.
Well it might be just me but i see siege tanks (no i am not only watching games of a terran that is know for going only siege tanks) and hydras way more often, well i see ultras a bit more rarely because zergs often finish the game before it goes to t3 (or they die before hehe)
On March 16 2011 23:41 FeyFey wrote: wow this thread is still alive ... anyway compared to bw you see the ultraliks even rarer then the hydralisk, you should also discuss about the death of the ultraliks and don't just forget the unit you saw just every game except zvz. Maybe terrans should discuss the death of the siege tank as well. So sad to see all these units used more rarely.
Well it might be just me but i see siege tanks (no i am not only watching games of a terran that is know for going only siege tanks) and hydras way more often, well i see ultras a bit more rarely because zergs often finish the game before it goes to t3 (or they die before hehe)
The units you're talking about all have strengths. The hydra doesn't really have any strength or redeeming factor, it's a mediocre unit in all aspects.
I feel like the problem with hydras is the time-window of their utility is very short before they are (too) hard countered.
It is also at a point in the game where it is too early to utilise them in an offensive way.
- You wont be able to spread creep quickly enough to enable a retreat - You probably wont be able to afford drop tech in terms of gas and time if you go hydra.
By the time you can get any of these two abilities in a way that would allow you to attack with hydras your enemy will have the overbearing hard counter to hydra.
I think this is what the OP is going on about in regards to their "fit".
So perhaps an interesting indirect buff to hydra would be to make drop tech cheaper/quicker.
I'm getting more and more disgusted with the Hydra and it's terrible cost inefficiency. It hit me when my friend performed a delayed 6 gate + 10 Phoenix timing attack over and over for about 7 games. I tried everything from Roach/Hydra, Ling/Hydra/Infestor, Ling/Bling/Hydra and nothing worked. I eventually decided to ignore the Phoenix's completely and make all Ling/Bling/Roach - then I was finally able to beat it.
How counter-intuitive that in order for me to beat a flying unit I have to disregard my primary anti-air unit because it gets completely destroyed by Phoenixes? For 100 minerals and 50 gas this unit is awful, and I am going to be avoiding the Hydra as much as humanly possible for the foreseeable future. Considering gas is the main limiting factor in every matchup for zerg, I have a hard time justifying the Roach sometimes, but now I simply can't think of any situation where I need the Hydra but wouldn't rather have Queens and Corruptors.
EDIT: Oh, and yes the Ultra is pretty awful in ZvP as well. I mostly use it for humiliation purposes instead of actual utility (which is...killing buildings I guess? lol).
On March 17 2011 01:30 aquanda wrote: I'm getting more and more disgusted with the Hydra and it's terrible cost inefficiency. It hit me when my friend performed a delayed 6 gate + 10 Phoenix timing attack over and over for about 7 games. I tried everything from Roach/Hydra, Ling/Hydra/Infestor, Ling/Bling/Hydra and nothing worked. I eventually decided to ignore the Phoenix's completely and make all Ling/Bling/Roach - then I was finally able to beat it.
How counter-intuitive that in order for me to beat a flying unit I have to disregard my primary anti-air unit because it gets completely destroyed by Phoenixes? For 100 minerals and 50 gas this unit is awful, and I am going to be avoiding the Hydra as much as humanly possible for the foreseeable future. Considering gas is the main limiting factor in every matchup for zerg, I have a hard time justifying the Roach sometimes, but now I simply can't think of any situation where I need the Hydra but wouldn't rather have Queens and Corruptors.
EDIT: Oh, and yes the Ultra is pretty awful in ZvP as well. I mostly use it for humiliation purposes instead of actual utility (which is...killing buildings I guess? lol).
I've dropped it completely in ZvP, and it never really featured in my other matchups.
I've been doing your style of massive ling-bling, with all the extra gas going into heavy upgrades, corruptors and finally broodlords. It's great. Ever since I stopped trying to use the Hydra, my ZvP has gotten much better =/
On March 17 2011 00:46 qui wrote: I feel like the problem with hydras is the time-window of their utility is very short before they are (too) hard countered.
It is also at a point in the game where it is too early to utilise them in an offensive way.
- You wont be able to spread creep quickly enough to enable a retreat - You probably wont be able to afford drop tech in terms of gas and time if you go hydra.
By the time you can get any of these two abilities in a way that would allow you to attack with hydras your enemy will have the overbearing hard counter to hydra.
I think this is what the OP is going on about in regards to their "fit".
So perhaps an interesting indirect buff to hydra would be to make drop tech cheaper/quicker.
This is an excellent point, especially in regards to ZvP.
In terms of what I was saying about their "fit", I just mean that their very characteristics are that of a T or P unit, not a Z unit. There is no place in the Zerg army for a glass cannon - it just does not synergise well with their units, and its not what makes Zerg "Zerg".
I actually can't totally blame Blizz for not yet deciding hydra needs to get stronger. I mean it IS a great defender, and with roaches to tank, they are really godly dps. I think they are waiting to see if a proper incorporation of ovies into combat, or if hydras can be used to abuse multi-bases to tech to T3, is plausible. I mean the game is obviously STILL evolving, but if nothing comes out, I think they'll probably add something.
After playing a few games where they have saved me, I can say they're not the staple unit they were in BW (I think the Roach took it's place, maybe?), but against non-Colossus 'toss, they're very useful.
I, of course, am I Master Level 40000 point Random player, so my opinion here is law.
Just a thought, in about the first 4 pages i read many times a idea (Idra idea actually) to make Hydra T1 and roach T2 (reworking their numbers a bit of course).
Wouldnt that make even stronger the Blue Flame Hellion opening?, Hydras being light armor... There is no real hard counter to hellion till zerg hit lair tech. So heavy heavy hellion push wont have to deal with the fear of roaches, just dodging spine crawlers.
I think Hydra is a balanced unit for the game, thats is useless on zerg armys
is that clear for thouse still saying it would be OP to buff it?, most of us we are not asking for a buff, but a rework... make it weaker here and there, make it stronger here and there, so it remain balanced, but it could synegise with the rest of the unnits.
Well its kinda hard to say exactly how tier one hydras would fare against helions because if blizz would try it we don't know how they would change it. We can guess that they would be terrible but just by the fact that helions hard counter light units but until its tested out we can't say for sure.
They do great. Really great with blue-flame. iEchoic's build uses them like mineral-only banelings to take out the marines for the banshees (mutalisks) to come clean up..
On March 17 2011 09:13 Logarythm wrote: After playing a few games where they have saved me, I can say they're not the staple unit they were in BW (I think the Roach took it's place, maybe?), but against non-Colossus 'toss, they're very useful.
I, of course, am I Master Level 40000 point Random player, so my opinion here is law.
It's over 9000 for sure.. I don't play Zerg often, but when I do.. thinking about it, I think I skip the hydra just about all the time, and either go heavy roach, or muta.
The hydra isn't bad, but it isn't good enough to be a staple of my play (that what it is)
Hydra limits protoss options big time just like in bw. Hydra with lings is efficient vs gateway units and are natural well off against air. standard strategies usually revolve around side stepping their strength like going for templar, or robo bay. This dynamic is fine, but if hydra is too strong it can be bad for gameplay.
On March 17 2011 09:13 Logarythm wrote: After playing a few games where they have saved me, I can say they're not the staple unit they were in BW (I think the Roach took it's place, maybe?), but against non-Colossus 'toss, they're very useful.
I, of course, am I Master Level 40000 point Random player, so my opinion here is law.
So that ONE game where the toss decides colossi are a unnecessary/bad unit hydras are useful. Sounds pretty limited right there. Sounds like it's going to get even better with KA removal.
On March 17 2011 21:26 mati wrote: Just a thought, in about the first 4 pages i read many times a idea (Idra idea actually) to make Hydra T1 and roach T2 (reworking their numbers a bit of course).
Wouldnt that make even stronger the Blue Flame Hellion opening?, Hydras being light armor... There is no real hard counter to hellion till zerg hit lair tech. So heavy heavy hellion push wont have to deal with the fear of roaches, just dodging spine crawlers.
I think Hydra is a balanced unit for the game, thats is useless on zerg armys
is that clear for thouse still saying it would be OP to buff it?, most of us we are not asking for a buff, but a rework... make it weaker here and there, make it stronger here and there, so it remain balanced, but it could synegise with the rest of the unnits.
You raise an important point that I haven't seen mentioned as a key change to the hydra.
It's 'light' status should be removed and the unit should be left as "Biological".
I agree with the Hydra being invaluable, they're only use is in ZvP but even then its debatable to use them depending on the game. Its definitely not a unit that can be massed since how gas heavy it is till late game, but once your at the point of having them massed its usually to late as Toss will have their niche composition. I would like to see Hydras as a T1 unit with a cost that is more reasonable for their squishyness (sp?)
Hydras will absolutely destroy gateway units, they hold of 4 gates well. Roaches tank damage, hydras kill gateway units, and you snipe off colossus with corrupters. If I can kill every colossus in a P ball, I feel like I can crush the rest of it with my reinforcements, even if my whole army died.
On March 18 2011 12:24 .Carnage wrote: Hydras will absolutely destroy gateway units, they hold of 4 gates well. Roaches tank damage, hydras kill gateway units, and you snipe off colossus with corrupters. If I can kill every colossus in a P ball, I feel like I can crush the rest of it with my reinforcements, even if my whole army died.
Given the fragile nature of hydras, all your hydras will be dead before you kill all their colossi.
On March 18 2011 12:24 .Carnage wrote: Hydras will absolutely destroy gateway units, they hold of 4 gates well. Roaches tank damage, hydras kill gateway units, and you snipe off colossus with corrupters. If I can kill every colossus in a P ball, I feel like I can crush the rest of it with my reinforcements, even if my whole army died.
I don't know what kind of Hydras you are building, but mine are the kind that aren't there at 6 and a half minutes to hold off a 4gate...
On March 19 2011 16:27 hyunGGe wrote: HYDRA DROP! Watch July + Show Spoiler +
watch GSL 5 Final July vs MC...hydra drop is very dangerous!
That was a great move, but it only will work vs forge FEs imho. (ive tried some hydra drop timings vs 3 gate expos, and they have too many units) An issue is if the drop fails you loose a lot of hydras, as overlords are so slow they they get picked off when retreating. I guess its just a good counter for forge fe into stargate as they will have a low unit count when it hits.
I've been saying for months now that against a toss that opens a FE with phoenix, hydra drops are the perfect counter. In this instance, hydras are great but otherwise they are still over shadowed by a lot of units zerg has.
btw, I knew this thread would bump after the last game :D
I play zerg, and I feel hydras are actually fine. Against gateway units, they only trade about evenly for cost on their own because of their fragility, but once roaches are present to tank they own gateway units pretty well. Colossi kill them, sure, but that's what colossi are meant to do. Marines get owned by colossi as well. The real problem with zerg as I see it is the corruptor, which is simply not carrying its weight in the zerg team. Terrans can't fight colossi with marines too; they use vikings to kill them. Unfortunately for zerg corruptors do nowhere as well against colossi as vikings do, this is why we have problems with the deathball.
the thing i feel with the hydra is that it needs to be buffed or explored indirectly, the unit itself is fine. it has massive massive dps. the main thing really is creep spread. i can imagine creep spread really needs to be better and use overlords a lot for drops and creep spread.
On March 19 2011 16:27 hyunGGe wrote: HYDRA DROP! Watch July + Show Spoiler +
watch GSL 5 Final July vs MC...hydra drop is very dangerous!
That was a great move, but it only will work vs forge FEs imho. (ive tried some hydra drop timings vs 3 gate expos, and they have too many units) An issue is if the drop fails you loose a lot of hydras, as overlords are so slow they they get picked off when retreating. I guess its just a good counter for forge fe into stargate as they will have a low unit count when it hits.
Have you tried dropping and then escaping out with your units before the opponent comes with his superior forces? Dropping is a technique which can be used for more than "killing the opponent", you can also force your opponent to move and at least against Terrans a drop should be great if he pulls all his troops away from hiw bases on one of the "reasonably sized" maps.
July loses game 5 because of the overall fragility and speed of the hydralisk. I think this game represents quite well the problem with the hydra and the role it is (supposedly) intended to fill in the zerg army. It is supposed to counter gateway units, but its insane cost and low speed make it a serious liability. Even if you could somehow afford roach+hydra vs 6 gate, that doesn't help the retreating problem. Hydras are the "best" unit the zerg has to deal with blink stalkers, except that stalkers are ridiculously fast and hydras are ridiculously slow.
Thats not to say that 6 gate blink stalker is OP or that zerg is UP or whatever, just that the hydra as a tech choice leaves a lot to be desired.
On March 19 2011 17:13 Fingulfin wrote: GSL spoiler: + Show Spoiler +
July loses game 5 because of the overall fragility and speed of the hydralisk. I think this game represents quite well the problem with the hydra and the role it is (supposedly) intended to fill in the zerg army. It is supposed to counter gateway units, but its insane cost and low speed make it a serious liability. Even if you could somehow afford roach+hydra vs 6 gate, that doesn't help the retreating problem. Hydras are the "best" unit the zerg has to deal with blink stalkers, except that stalkers are ridiculously fast and hydras are ridiculously slow.
Thats not to say that 6 gate blink stalker is OP or that zerg is UP or whatever, just that the hydra as a tech choice leaves a lot to be desired.
On March 19 2011 17:13 Fingulfin wrote: GSL spoiler: + Show Spoiler +
July loses game 5 because of the overall fragility and speed of the hydralisk. I think this game represents quite well the problem with the hydra and the role it is (supposedly) intended to fill in the zerg army. It is supposed to counter gateway units, but its insane cost and low speed make it a serious liability. Even if you could somehow afford roach+hydra vs 6 gate, that doesn't help the retreating problem. Hydras are the "best" unit the zerg has to deal with blink stalkers, except that stalkers are ridiculously fast and hydras are ridiculously slow.
Thats not to say that 6 gate blink stalker is OP or that zerg is UP or whatever, just that the hydra as a tech choice leaves a lot to be desired.
On March 19 2011 17:13 Fingulfin wrote: GSL spoiler: + Show Spoiler +
July loses game 5 because of the overall fragility and speed of the hydralisk. I think this game represents quite well the problem with the hydra and the role it is (supposedly) intended to fill in the zerg army. It is supposed to counter gateway units, but its insane cost and low speed make it a serious liability. Even if you could somehow afford roach+hydra vs 6 gate, that doesn't help the retreating problem. Hydras are the "best" unit the zerg has to deal with blink stalkers, except that stalkers are ridiculously fast and hydras are ridiculously slow.
Thats not to say that 6 gate blink stalker is OP or that zerg is UP or whatever, just that the hydra as a tech choice leaves a lot to be desired.
he engaged off creep, and he didn't get the range upgrade, AND MC had better ups and more units. Its hard for me to believe that the Hydra is dead because of that.
People overestimate creep... Creep tumors are fragile especially when they are still unburrowed. + Show Spoiler +
not to mention, when your opponent has his army parked right outside your creep line... how exactly do you plan on spreading it without getting the tumors picked off as soon as they are placed?
Overlord creep spread is ridiculous too. You have to invest in OL speed just to get them into position, and even then you now have a bunch of OLs in vulnerable areas just begging to get shot down.
Oh, and you can't escape from Blink Stalkers with hydras even if on creep. Stalkers move ridiculously fast, and blink stalkers have... blink.
Have you tried dropping and then escaping out with your units before the opponent comes with his superior forces? Dropping is a technique which can be used for more than "killing the opponent", you can also force your opponent to move and at least against Terrans a drop should be great if he pulls all his troops away from hiw bases on one of the "reasonably sized" maps.
I may be misunderstanding your post, but why would i do hydra drops vs terran when for the tech cost and a few hydras I could get mutas instead, and have much more mobility and ability to shut down terran drops. Also given how poorly hydras perform vs terran if i get drop tech i would just drop banelings and lings. Protoss can warp in to deal with small drops, and hydralisks do much worse vs a few canons then marauders+medivac. I can't rely on a small drop forcing them back, and a large drop might just force a base trade (overlords are too slow to move they hydras back in time). I would love to use drops more, but other then exploiting timings like july did I don't feel they have much place.
On March 19 2011 17:13 Fingulfin wrote: GSL spoiler: + Show Spoiler +
July loses game 5 because of the overall fragility and speed of the hydralisk. I think this game represents quite well the problem with the hydra and the role it is (supposedly) intended to fill in the zerg army. It is supposed to counter gateway units, but its insane cost and low speed make it a serious liability. Even if you could somehow afford roach+hydra vs 6 gate, that doesn't help the retreating problem. Hydras are the "best" unit the zerg has to deal with blink stalkers, except that stalkers are ridiculously fast and hydras are ridiculously slow.
Thats not to say that 6 gate blink stalker is OP or that zerg is UP or whatever, just that the hydra as a tech choice leaves a lot to be desired.
he engaged off creep, and he didn't get the range upgrade, AND MC had better ups and more units. Its hard for me to believe that the Hydra is dead because of that.
he didn't get the freaking range upgrade... seriously boggled my mind.
Anyways, hydras I guess are supposed to have a role similar to siege tanks, except that they are not quite as good or cost effective?
I agree that hydras should be the counter to mass gateway units, but the problem is that with a lot of hydra, you simply can't be aggressive against a toss that is going to have a bigger army than you by the time you reach his base, not to mention the collosi that will be coming...
On March 19 2011 17:13 Fingulfin wrote: GSL spoiler: + Show Spoiler +
July loses game 5 because of the overall fragility and speed of the hydralisk. I think this game represents quite well the problem with the hydra and the role it is (supposedly) intended to fill in the zerg army. It is supposed to counter gateway units, but its insane cost and low speed make it a serious liability. Even if you could somehow afford roach+hydra vs 6 gate, that doesn't help the retreating problem. Hydras are the "best" unit the zerg has to deal with blink stalkers, except that stalkers are ridiculously fast and hydras are ridiculously slow.
Thats not to say that 6 gate blink stalker is OP or that zerg is UP or whatever, just that the hydra as a tech choice leaves a lot to be desired.
he engaged off creep, and he didn't get the range upgrade, AND MC had better ups and more units. Its hard for me to believe that the Hydra is dead because of that.
You also have to consider the fact that Zerg has to make drones, attacking units, and overlords with larva. July had to commit all his larva to hydra and he still got outproduced by MC who had the ability to simultaneously make probes and get upgrades. Even if he didnt engage off creep it was already over, MC's production was insane.
On March 19 2011 17:13 Fingulfin wrote: GSL spoiler: + Show Spoiler +
July loses game 5 because of the overall fragility and speed of the hydralisk. I think this game represents quite well the problem with the hydra and the role it is (supposedly) intended to fill in the zerg army. It is supposed to counter gateway units, but its insane cost and low speed make it a serious liability. Even if you could somehow afford roach+hydra vs 6 gate, that doesn't help the retreating problem. Hydras are the "best" unit the zerg has to deal with blink stalkers, except that stalkers are ridiculously fast and hydras are ridiculously slow.
Thats not to say that 6 gate blink stalker is OP or that zerg is UP or whatever, just that the hydra as a tech choice leaves a lot to be desired.
Don't engage blink stalkers with hydra off creep?
Well that's part of what makes them so fucking bad really, isn't it?
They're completely and utterly useless off creep and they're HARD countered by AoE, so if you make a shitload of them to survive a gateway push, you either all-in off creep and hope he can't micro, or you wait for him to get AoE so you can watch your army drop by 50 supply 2 seconds into the first major battle.
I'll never understand why Blizzard made them so ridiculously slow off creep. It's just impractical to cover the entire map in creep, especially with competitive maps becoming increasingly large. If you want to force an engagement with hydra it has to be off creep, otherwise you sit back and wait for the bulk of your army to be hard countered.
On March 19 2011 17:13 Fingulfin wrote: GSL spoiler: + Show Spoiler +
July loses game 5 because of the overall fragility and speed of the hydralisk. I think this game represents quite well the problem with the hydra and the role it is (supposedly) intended to fill in the zerg army. It is supposed to counter gateway units, but its insane cost and low speed make it a serious liability. Even if you could somehow afford roach+hydra vs 6 gate, that doesn't help the retreating problem. Hydras are the "best" unit the zerg has to deal with blink stalkers, except that stalkers are ridiculously fast and hydras are ridiculously slow.
Thats not to say that 6 gate blink stalker is OP or that zerg is UP or whatever, just that the hydra as a tech choice leaves a lot to be desired.
he engaged off creep, and he didn't get the range upgrade, AND MC had better ups and more units. Its hard for me to believe that the Hydra is dead because of that.
You also have to consider the fact that Zerg has to make drones, attacking units, and overlords with larva. July had to commit all his larva to hydra and he still got outproduced by MC who had the ability to simultaneously make probes and get upgrades. Even if he didnt engage off creep it was already over, MC's production was insane.
True, the only thing I can really see would be him just sticking to two base and massing hydras to hold off the attack, with several spines to back him up. It may be that with an MC style 6gate attack you have to be a bit more defensive and not take such a fast 3rd. Also, the DT's eating his drones probably didn't help either, nor did spending several hundred extra gas on overseers.
MC's force field use was brutal, and won those games. In the last game I didn't realize he skipped range. It would have helped alot vs the forcefields and then later vs blink stalkers. Did he skip range in the 3rd game too?
Hydralisks don't even beat blink stalkers with their range upgrade if numbers are equal off creep. On creep they do pretty well, but not as well as people say (if there is a way to make them outrageously cost effective let me know :D)
Have you tried dropping and then escaping out with your units before the opponent comes with his superior forces? Dropping is a technique which can be used for more than "killing the opponent", you can also force your opponent to move and at least against Terrans a drop should be great if he pulls all his troops away from hiw bases on one of the "reasonably sized" maps.
I may be misunderstanding your post, but why would i do hydra drops vs terran when for the tech cost and a few hydras I could get mutas instead, and have much more mobility and ability to shut down terran drops. Also given how poorly hydras perform vs terran if i get drop tech i would just drop banelings and lings. Protoss can warp in to deal with small drops, and hydralisks do much worse vs a few canons then marauders+medivac. I can't rely on a small drop forcing them back, and a large drop might just force a base trade (overlords are too slow to move they hydras back in time). I would love to use drops more, but other then exploiting timings like july did I don't feel they have much place.
That and marines are insanely cost effective vs hydras. at a 2:1 marine:hydra ratio (hydras arguably cost more than 3 marines) marines will beat out the hydras in a landslide. If terran is guaranteed to make a bunch of any one unit, that unit would be the marine.
That being said, drops are actually really powerful vs 3-gate expands right now. Doesn't matter what you drop really, roaches/hydras/lings/banes are all super effective. The idea is to cut down as many gateway units as you can (sentries pref) and keep the protoss in his base while you get your third saturated. I suppose it does fall under exploiting timings, (gotta hit before first colossus) and if you don't do good damage you will be substantially behind... but drops are still a strong choice.
On March 08 2011 09:10 Buddhalol wrote: as it stands in my opinion is that, Hydra dps in large numbers is great, survivability on the other hand not so much, well positioned hydras flanking can deal massive dmg when maneuvered correctly (think shattered temple, engaging a toss ball in the middle of the map from 2-3 angles. The problem i personally find is that it is too hard to get them into position quick enough so the fact of the matter is,
glass cannon unit's always seem underpowered in a straight up fights but i think in the future ( im thinking Moon's drop play in gsl) zergs will find that hydras can be of great use in different ways, a buff may be needed because off creep they are basically useless, so i'd only suggest movement speed increase off creep OR an hp increase but both seem overkill
im just spit-ballin my ideas here so dont take too much offense if you do not agree :D
i agree 100%. i think a lot of people dismiss them as useful because they look at the hydra and they look at the roach, and they see that a roach is cheaper, and much better in a straight up giant army vs giant army confrontation, but hydras are amazing in certain situations. they're awesome for drops because of their high dps, and a few hydras + a few infestors kill approximately infinity mutas. it's obvious that they can't be the real meat and potatoes of your army, but i'm positive they have a place. they kind of remind me of mutas. when i first tried going mutaling, i thought it was the most awful strategy on the planet! but that's because i'd build up an army of lings and mutas, and 1a, and i'd lose crazy hard. but then i found out that mutas are good not because they can kill big armies (because they sure as hell can't), they're good because they are amazing for harassment, and they're so good for maintaining map control. the muta is good because you have to keep them alive while doing as much damage as possible with them. similarly, we zergs just need to find better ways of protecting our hydras while they do their terrible, terrible damage
On March 19 2011 17:13 Fingulfin wrote: GSL spoiler: + Show Spoiler +
July loses game 5 because of the overall fragility and speed of the hydralisk. I think this game represents quite well the problem with the hydra and the role it is (supposedly) intended to fill in the zerg army. It is supposed to counter gateway units, but its insane cost and low speed make it a serious liability. Even if you could somehow afford roach+hydra vs 6 gate, that doesn't help the retreating problem. Hydras are the "best" unit the zerg has to deal with blink stalkers, except that stalkers are ridiculously fast and hydras are ridiculously slow.
Thats not to say that 6 gate blink stalker is OP or that zerg is UP or whatever, just that the hydra as a tech choice leaves a lot to be desired.
he engaged off creep, and he didn't get the range upgrade, AND MC had better ups and more units. Its hard for me to believe that the Hydra is dead because of that.
You also have to consider the fact that Zerg has to make drones, attacking units, and overlords with larva. July had to commit all his larva to hydra and he still got outproduced by MC who had the ability to simultaneously make probes and get upgrades. Even if he didnt engage off creep it was already over, MC's production was insane.
True, the only thing I can really see would be him just sticking to two base and massing hydras to hold off the attack, with several spines to back him up. It may be that with an MC style 6gate attack you have to be a bit more defensive and not take such a fast 3rd. Also, the DT's eating his drones probably didn't help either, nor did spending several hundred extra gas on overseers.
Yeah I agree, spines seem very necessary vs MCs super aggression. It makes me miss creep colonies from bw It made Zerg so much more adaptable, which is exactly what they are supposed to be but it seems T & P are given more tools for adaptation than Zerg.
That being said, drops are actually really powerful vs 3-gate expands right now. Doesn't matter what you drop really, roaches/hydras/lings/banes are all super effective. The idea is to cut down as many gateway units as you can (sentries pref) and keep the protoss in his base while you get your third saturated. I suppose it does fall under exploiting timings, (gotta hit before first colossus) and if you don't do good damage you will be substantially behind... but drops are still a strong choice.
I agree that roach/ling bling drops are much better vs 3 gate expo. The tech cost is much lower, especially for roach/ling. You can also have 2x more roaches then hydra, and saved 250 gas for the tech+range (upgrades/start a spire, or more roaches).
I think July was on the right track in that last game just didn't execute it very well.
Constantly engaging hydra vs gateway army. Force him to use forcefields, if July didn't lose every drone at his third, didn't forget to creep spread (NO OBS EVER), forgot hydra range. Didn't pull back when he needed to. Have such poor army control (lost like 5 overseers, butting heads on forcefields).
On March 19 2011 17:13 Fingulfin wrote: GSL spoiler: + Show Spoiler +
July loses game 5 because of the overall fragility and speed of the hydralisk. I think this game represents quite well the problem with the hydra and the role it is (supposedly) intended to fill in the zerg army. It is supposed to counter gateway units, but its insane cost and low speed make it a serious liability. Even if you could somehow afford roach+hydra vs 6 gate, that doesn't help the retreating problem. Hydras are the "best" unit the zerg has to deal with blink stalkers, except that stalkers are ridiculously fast and hydras are ridiculously slow.
Thats not to say that 6 gate blink stalker is OP or that zerg is UP or whatever, just that the hydra as a tech choice leaves a lot to be desired.
he engaged off creep, and he didn't get the range upgrade, AND MC had better ups and more units. Its hard for me to believe that the Hydra is dead because of that.
You also have to consider the fact that Zerg has to make drones, attacking units, and overlords with larva. July had to commit all his larva to hydra and he still got outproduced by MC who had the ability to simultaneously make probes and get upgrades. Even if he didnt engage off creep it was already over, MC's production was insane.
True, the only thing I can really see would be him just sticking to two base and massing hydras to hold off the attack, with several spines to back him up. It may be that with an MC style 6gate attack you have to be a bit more defensive and not take such a fast 3rd. Also, the DT's eating his drones probably didn't help either, nor did spending several hundred extra gas on overseers.
Yeah I agree, spines seem very necessary vs MCs super aggression. It makes me miss creep colonies from bw It made Zerg so much more adaptable, which is exactly what they are supposed to be but it seems T & P are given more tools for adaptation than Zerg.
Why creep colonies? They make no difference. If you have a sunken you can't turn it into a spore
On March 19 2011 17:13 Fingulfin wrote: GSL spoiler: + Show Spoiler +
July loses game 5 because of the overall fragility and speed of the hydralisk. I think this game represents quite well the problem with the hydra and the role it is (supposedly) intended to fill in the zerg army. It is supposed to counter gateway units, but its insane cost and low speed make it a serious liability. Even if you could somehow afford roach+hydra vs 6 gate, that doesn't help the retreating problem. Hydras are the "best" unit the zerg has to deal with blink stalkers, except that stalkers are ridiculously fast and hydras are ridiculously slow.
Thats not to say that 6 gate blink stalker is OP or that zerg is UP or whatever, just that the hydra as a tech choice leaves a lot to be desired.
he engaged off creep, and he didn't get the range upgrade, AND MC had better ups and more units. Its hard for me to believe that the Hydra is dead because of that.
You also have to consider the fact that Zerg has to make drones, attacking units, and overlords with larva. July had to commit all his larva to hydra and he still got outproduced by MC who had the ability to simultaneously make probes and get upgrades. Even if he didnt engage off creep it was already over, MC's production was insane.
True, the only thing I can really see would be him just sticking to two base and massing hydras to hold off the attack, with several spines to back him up. It may be that with an MC style 6gate attack you have to be a bit more defensive and not take such a fast 3rd. Also, the DT's eating his drones probably didn't help either, nor did spending several hundred extra gas on overseers.
Yeah I agree, spines seem very necessary vs MCs super aggression. It makes me miss creep colonies from bw It made Zerg so much more adaptable, which is exactly what they are supposed to be but it seems T & P are given more tools for adaptation than Zerg.
Why creep colonies? They make no difference. If you have a sunken you can't turn it into a spore
You can build cheap creep colonies. When you see them move out to attack then you can morph them into sunkens very quickly. Spines take a long ass time to make and its the full investment on the spot.
On March 19 2011 17:13 Fingulfin wrote: GSL spoiler: + Show Spoiler +
July loses game 5 because of the overall fragility and speed of the hydralisk. I think this game represents quite well the problem with the hydra and the role it is (supposedly) intended to fill in the zerg army. It is supposed to counter gateway units, but its insane cost and low speed make it a serious liability. Even if you could somehow afford roach+hydra vs 6 gate, that doesn't help the retreating problem. Hydras are the "best" unit the zerg has to deal with blink stalkers, except that stalkers are ridiculously fast and hydras are ridiculously slow.
Thats not to say that 6 gate blink stalker is OP or that zerg is UP or whatever, just that the hydra as a tech choice leaves a lot to be desired.
he engaged off creep, and he didn't get the range upgrade, AND MC had better ups and more units. Its hard for me to believe that the Hydra is dead because of that.
You also have to consider the fact that Zerg has to make drones, attacking units, and overlords with larva. July had to commit all his larva to hydra and he still got outproduced by MC who had the ability to simultaneously make probes and get upgrades. Even if he didnt engage off creep it was already over, MC's production was insane.
True, the only thing I can really see would be him just sticking to two base and massing hydras to hold off the attack, with several spines to back him up. It may be that with an MC style 6gate attack you have to be a bit more defensive and not take such a fast 3rd. Also, the DT's eating his drones probably didn't help either, nor did spending several hundred extra gas on overseers.
Yeah I agree, spines seem very necessary vs MCs super aggression. It makes me miss creep colonies from bw It made Zerg so much more adaptable, which is exactly what they are supposed to be but it seems T & P are given more tools for adaptation than Zerg.
Why creep colonies? They make no difference. If you have a sunken you can't turn it into a spore
because a creep colony would serve the dual purpose of a spine and a tumor, I think is what he's trying to say. I think spines are fine as is, just most zergs are afraid of putting lots of them up for some reason. In BW it wasn't uncommon to see 3-5 sunks at the front if a big attack was coming, in sc2 we rarely see more than 2.
Build time wise I'm with you, but having the full investment on the spot is better Having a creep colony not doing anything is tons of potential mining time wasted. If you can build it later that's better
On March 19 2011 17:51 hugman wrote: Build time wise I'm with you, but having the full investment on the spot is better Having a creep colony not doing anything is tons of potential mining time wasted. If you can build it later that's better
Yeah but if your expecting aggression you drop a few colonies then you can make lots of drones. The enemy moves out and you make all units and morph into sunkens. Having the option to easily have defense out in time gives you the breathing room to confidently drone up.
Totally off topic from the thread tho so I say no more
Maybe little off topic but what I don't like about FFs is that they 100% depends on protoss players - zerg cannot do anything. After some time when people will be much better at sc2 then protoss players will be very good at dropping forcefields, terran players will be very good at spliting their stimmed marines and what about zerg? Zerg players can't really do anything because it's not on their hands. Yeah, they can make a flank or better concave but that's so minor. Those two races has so much more where to improve imo, while zerg just can improve his macro and hope that toss misses his FFs.
On topic: hydras are decent on creep but on those new huge maps creep spread becomes so much harder to do. That's not stepes of war where you put 2 tumors and take few ovies and you already at his natural killing stuff with hydras.
On March 19 2011 17:13 Fingulfin wrote: GSL spoiler: + Show Spoiler +
July loses game 5 because of the overall fragility and speed of the hydralisk. I think this game represents quite well the problem with the hydra and the role it is (supposedly) intended to fill in the zerg army. It is supposed to counter gateway units, but its insane cost and low speed make it a serious liability. Even if you could somehow afford roach+hydra vs 6 gate, that doesn't help the retreating problem. Hydras are the "best" unit the zerg has to deal with blink stalkers, except that stalkers are ridiculously fast and hydras are ridiculously slow.
Thats not to say that 6 gate blink stalker is OP or that zerg is UP or whatever, just that the hydra as a tech choice leaves a lot to be desired.
Don't engage blink stalkers with hydra off creep?
I'll never understand why Blizzard made them so ridiculously slow off creep. It's just impractical to cover the entire map in creep, especially with competitive maps becoming increasingly large. If you want to force an engagement with hydra it has to be off creep, otherwise you sit back and wait for the bulk of your army to be hard countered.
It really bothers me how everyone talks about hydralisks being ridiculously slow off creep. They're not. They're the same speed as everything else.
Humn, on a side note ( since I don't think that's threadworthy and is in some way related to the hydra's ill fate) , what do you guys think of baneling mines as opposed to burrowed lurkers?
I feel whereas burrowed banelings have the potential to deal an ungodly ammount of pain to the enemy with a minimal investment, is at it's core a one trick pony strat. The terran player will bring a raven/ will scan next time, if he recovers (more often than not he will in some scrappy way). He will totally negate your burrowed banelings. Literally 0 damage done if a detector is provided. It seems to me a bit too much of a hard counter really.
Let's swap that baneling mine field with two or three lurkers. Even if detected they would be able to attack and deal some damage (even if healed by the medic/medivac it's still something DONE), and would be able to escape in time in most cases.
What i'm trying to say? That blizzard made the worst decision in removing lurkers thinking that they were overlapping roles with banelings and that detection was available at t3 anyways. Think about it. Banelings are t1, and are more of an aggressive unit that deals istant damage, without the need to burrow and then attack in a straight line.
The lurker would've filled the niche of the expansion defender, ACTIVE area denial, and even if detected they would've not totally raped without dealing any damage. Banelings cannot fill that niche very well, in the late game I mean. What in your opinion would slow down a drop harrass by a terran at one of your outlying expos more? 3 banelings in the mineral line or a single burrowed lurker? The difference in effectiveness between detected and undetected baneling mines is the same difference between 0 and 1. A whole lot. The same thing cannot be said for the lurker, which will atleast put up a fight or escape. Sure, sometimes that baneling minefield will win you games (last night's destiny vs brat_ok set 1 was an example) but the next game brat_ok did not make the same mistake, and checked using scans, denying destiny's banelings 100%.
To me it looks kinda stupid the concept of having one mechanic that can be either extremely cost effective or not effective at all. I would've loved a more 50/50 approach.
I know it's too late to bring our lovely underground friend back, but the lurker morph could've helped the hydra too in some way, at least in PRESENCE in matchups.
TL:DR I seriously argue that blizzard's argument for removing lurkers was not that smart, since banelings don't exactly overlap that much if you think about it, and hydras nowhere to be seen in the tvz matchup because of this too (other than speed).
On March 19 2011 17:13 Fingulfin wrote: GSL spoiler: + Show Spoiler +
July loses game 5 because of the overall fragility and speed of the hydralisk. I think this game represents quite well the problem with the hydra and the role it is (supposedly) intended to fill in the zerg army. It is supposed to counter gateway units, but its insane cost and low speed make it a serious liability. Even if you could somehow afford roach+hydra vs 6 gate, that doesn't help the retreating problem. Hydras are the "best" unit the zerg has to deal with blink stalkers, except that stalkers are ridiculously fast and hydras are ridiculously slow.
Thats not to say that 6 gate blink stalker is OP or that zerg is UP or whatever, just that the hydra as a tech choice leaves a lot to be desired.
Don't engage blink stalkers with hydra off creep?
I'll never understand why Blizzard made them so ridiculously slow off creep. It's just impractical to cover the entire map in creep, especially with competitive maps becoming increasingly large. If you want to force an engagement with hydra it has to be off creep, otherwise you sit back and wait for the bulk of your army to be hard countered.
It really bothers me how everyone talks about hydralisks being ridiculously slow off creep. They're not. They're the same speed as everything else.
Hydralisks are not slow, they're regular speed units. They only appear slow in comparison to other zerg units, which are all very fast.
That's the issue, zerg units can't afford to move at the same speed as other races units as that means any time I'm using hydras I can't counterattack, flank or fall back. Zergs live and die based on mobility, no matter how good the hydra is the fact that it kills the mobility of my entire army is too high a price to pay.
On March 19 2011 17:13 Fingulfin wrote: GSL spoiler: + Show Spoiler +
July loses game 5 because of the overall fragility and speed of the hydralisk. I think this game represents quite well the problem with the hydra and the role it is (supposedly) intended to fill in the zerg army. It is supposed to counter gateway units, but its insane cost and low speed make it a serious liability. Even if you could somehow afford roach+hydra vs 6 gate, that doesn't help the retreating problem. Hydras are the "best" unit the zerg has to deal with blink stalkers, except that stalkers are ridiculously fast and hydras are ridiculously slow.
Thats not to say that 6 gate blink stalker is OP or that zerg is UP or whatever, just that the hydra as a tech choice leaves a lot to be desired.
Don't engage blink stalkers with hydra off creep?
I'll never understand why Blizzard made them so ridiculously slow off creep. It's just impractical to cover the entire map in creep, especially with competitive maps becoming increasingly large. If you want to force an engagement with hydra it has to be off creep, otherwise you sit back and wait for the bulk of your army to be hard countered.
It really bothers me how everyone talks about hydralisks being ridiculously slow off creep. They're not. They're the same speed as everything else.
Hydralisks are not slow, they're regular speed units. They only appear slow in comparison to other zerg units, which are all very fast.
Missed a few!
Zealot (With Legs): 2.75 (Not to mention charge ability) Stalker: 2.95 Marine (Stimmed): 3.375 (<--equal speed to a hydra on creep) Maruder (stimmed) 3.375 Dark Templar: 2.81
Zerg armies fight by getting in and out of position quickly, retreating when things get sour or when reinforcements arrive. Zerg armies need to be fast simply to be able to zip back and forth between expos to defend. Zerg armies excel at chasing down fleeing units... Well, zerg armies minus any zerg army with a hydralisk in it.
On March 19 2011 17:13 Fingulfin wrote: GSL spoiler: + Show Spoiler +
July loses game 5 because of the overall fragility and speed of the hydralisk. I think this game represents quite well the problem with the hydra and the role it is (supposedly) intended to fill in the zerg army. It is supposed to counter gateway units, but its insane cost and low speed make it a serious liability. Even if you could somehow afford roach+hydra vs 6 gate, that doesn't help the retreating problem. Hydras are the "best" unit the zerg has to deal with blink stalkers, except that stalkers are ridiculously fast and hydras are ridiculously slow.
Thats not to say that 6 gate blink stalker is OP or that zerg is UP or whatever, just that the hydra as a tech choice leaves a lot to be desired.
Don't engage blink stalkers with hydra off creep?
I'll never understand why Blizzard made them so ridiculously slow off creep. It's just impractical to cover the entire map in creep, especially with competitive maps becoming increasingly large. If you want to force an engagement with hydra it has to be off creep, otherwise you sit back and wait for the bulk of your army to be hard countered.
It really bothers me how everyone talks about hydralisks being ridiculously slow off creep. They're not. They're the same speed as everything else.
On March 19 2011 17:13 Fingulfin wrote: GSL spoiler: + Show Spoiler +
July loses game 5 because of the overall fragility and speed of the hydralisk. I think this game represents quite well the problem with the hydra and the role it is (supposedly) intended to fill in the zerg army. It is supposed to counter gateway units, but its insane cost and low speed make it a serious liability. Even if you could somehow afford roach+hydra vs 6 gate, that doesn't help the retreating problem. Hydras are the "best" unit the zerg has to deal with blink stalkers, except that stalkers are ridiculously fast and hydras are ridiculously slow.
Thats not to say that 6 gate blink stalker is OP or that zerg is UP or whatever, just that the hydra as a tech choice leaves a lot to be desired.
Don't engage blink stalkers with hydra off creep?
I'll never understand why Blizzard made them so ridiculously slow off creep. It's just impractical to cover the entire map in creep, especially with competitive maps becoming increasingly large. If you want to force an engagement with hydra it has to be off creep, otherwise you sit back and wait for the bulk of your army to be hard countered.
It really bothers me how everyone talks about hydralisks being ridiculously slow off creep. They're not. They're the same speed as everything else.
Hydralisks are not slow, they're regular speed units. They only appear slow in comparison to other zerg units, which are all very fast.
Sigh when people make this argument I just facepalm. The units you're talking about, which make up the core army, like zealots and marines and marauders, have UPGRADES TO MAKE THEM FASTER. That is what we want for a Hydra - a speed upgrade. We don't just want speed for free. We want what every other races core units have available to them.
You can't count spellcasters and siege units like tanks and colossi, thats just silly.
I think you shouldnt compare the units of the races. I mean every Unit has another purpose and u cant say like "marauders are more used than hydras so they should cost more" . Its just the game is still developing and units like hydras still didnt show their hold potential if ppl figure out how to creep spread better and do more nydus and drop based play well see how that could balance this unit without even a single buff or change
On March 20 2011 11:00 CupOfCoffee wrote: I think you shouldnt compare the units of the races. I mean every Unit has another purpose and u cant say like "marauders are more used than hydras so they should cost more" . Its just the game is still developing and units like hydras still didnt show their hold potential if ppl figure out how to creep spread better and do more nydus and drop based play well see how that could balance this unit without even a single buff or change
The thing about creep spread is it gets destroyed sooooo easely. You worked for 10minutes on that nice creep and 1scan or a 1observer can destroy it in less then a minute. If it was permanent this could be used as an argument but with the current creep? no.
On March 19 2011 17:13 Fingulfin wrote: GSL spoiler: + Show Spoiler +
July loses game 5 because of the overall fragility and speed of the hydralisk. I think this game represents quite well the problem with the hydra and the role it is (supposedly) intended to fill in the zerg army. It is supposed to counter gateway units, but its insane cost and low speed make it a serious liability. Even if you could somehow afford roach+hydra vs 6 gate, that doesn't help the retreating problem. Hydras are the "best" unit the zerg has to deal with blink stalkers, except that stalkers are ridiculously fast and hydras are ridiculously slow.
Thats not to say that 6 gate blink stalker is OP or that zerg is UP or whatever, just that the hydra as a tech choice leaves a lot to be desired.
Don't engage blink stalkers with hydra off creep?
I'll never understand why Blizzard made them so ridiculously slow off creep. It's just impractical to cover the entire map in creep, especially with competitive maps becoming increasingly large. If you want to force an engagement with hydra it has to be off creep, otherwise you sit back and wait for the bulk of your army to be hard countered.
It really bothers me how everyone talks about hydralisks being ridiculously slow off creep. They're not. They're the same speed as everything else.
Hydralisks are not slow, they're regular speed units. They only appear slow in comparison to other zerg units, which are all very fast.
Sigh when people make this argument I just facepalm. The units you're talking about, which make up the core army, like zealots and marines and marauders, have UPGRADES TO MAKE THEM FASTER. That is what we want for a Hydra - a speed upgrade. We don't just want speed for free. We want what every other races core units have available to them.
You can't count spellcasters and siege units like tanks and colossi, thats just silly.
That's funny. Marines and marauders I have to hurt them in order to make them as fast as hydras when they're just on creep. Stalkers are designed to be the fast ground unit of protoss, and are still only as fast as hydras on creep when they have blink and use it on CD. Zealots are fast (with charge) mostly because they're melee similar to lings just lings are faster. Essentially creep is the upgrade.
I think it's a little strange, I'm seeing hydras appear more in ZvT. Lalush vs Sjow, used them to kill vikings. Day9 mentioned a zerg player earlier in the TSL I forget who (possibly MorroW?) who uses them behind ultras. Roach Hydra > Roach. Hydras are also the main reason players go collo/HT. I don't think they're a bad unit.
Zealot (With Legs): 2.75 (Not to mention charge ability)
SC2 Zealots don't actually move faster with the upgrade they still move at 2.25, unlike in BW where they move faster all the time, they only get the charge ability in SC2.
wrong, they get both a speed boost and the charge ability
Honestly I feel the GSL final games really supported even more so why hydras are bad. July could never retreat from an engagement, they weren't even cost effective vs stalkers, etc
On March 19 2011 17:13 Fingulfin wrote: GSL spoiler: + Show Spoiler +
July loses game 5 because of the overall fragility and speed of the hydralisk. I think this game represents quite well the problem with the hydra and the role it is (supposedly) intended to fill in the zerg army. It is supposed to counter gateway units, but its insane cost and low speed make it a serious liability. Even if you could somehow afford roach+hydra vs 6 gate, that doesn't help the retreating problem. Hydras are the "best" unit the zerg has to deal with blink stalkers, except that stalkers are ridiculously fast and hydras are ridiculously slow.
Thats not to say that 6 gate blink stalker is OP or that zerg is UP or whatever, just that the hydra as a tech choice leaves a lot to be desired.
Don't engage blink stalkers with hydra off creep?
I'll never understand why Blizzard made them so ridiculously slow off creep. It's just impractical to cover the entire map in creep, especially with competitive maps becoming increasingly large. If you want to force an engagement with hydra it has to be off creep, otherwise you sit back and wait for the bulk of your army to be hard countered.
It really bothers me how everyone talks about hydralisks being ridiculously slow off creep. They're not. They're the same speed as everything else.
On March 20 2011 11:27 1Eris1 wrote: Honestly I feel the GSL final games really supported even more so why hydras are bad. July could never retreat from an engagement, they weren't even cost effective vs stalkers, etc
I remember MC and July's last game in their GSL3 series also largely consisted of mass blink stalkers vs. hydras on Shakuras Plateau. It was a pretty similar game except that the game lasted long enough for MC to get a colossus or two at the end.
It is frustrating to try retreating with hydras only to get picked off by chasing stalkers and when you turn them around to engage, stalkers just blink away even on creep. Stalkers used to be considered useless during early beta, but they've really come a long way since then with only a minor damage buff vs light.
On March 19 2011 17:13 Fingulfin wrote: GSL spoiler: + Show Spoiler +
July loses game 5 because of the overall fragility and speed of the hydralisk. I think this game represents quite well the problem with the hydra and the role it is (supposedly) intended to fill in the zerg army. It is supposed to counter gateway units, but its insane cost and low speed make it a serious liability. Even if you could somehow afford roach+hydra vs 6 gate, that doesn't help the retreating problem. Hydras are the "best" unit the zerg has to deal with blink stalkers, except that stalkers are ridiculously fast and hydras are ridiculously slow.
Thats not to say that 6 gate blink stalker is OP or that zerg is UP or whatever, just that the hydra as a tech choice leaves a lot to be desired.
Don't engage blink stalkers with hydra off creep?
I'll never understand why Blizzard made them so ridiculously slow off creep. It's just impractical to cover the entire map in creep, especially with competitive maps becoming increasingly large. If you want to force an engagement with hydra it has to be off creep, otherwise you sit back and wait for the bulk of your army to be hard countered.
It really bothers me how everyone talks about hydralisks being ridiculously slow off creep. They're not. They're the same speed as everything else.
Hydralisks are not slow, they're regular speed units. They only appear slow in comparison to other zerg units, which are all very fast.
That's the problem. Speed is the theme of zerg. The hydra feels like a unit that belongs to the terran arsenal.
You mean you cant 1A your Zergling Hydra or speed Roach Hydra army. Since units move at different speeds. Kinda like Protoss can not 1A Zealot Stalker, the Stalkers get there too fast and are killed, then the Zealots show up and die. Every Protoss knows that the Zealots need some room infront to move with the Stalker.
On March 20 2011 14:49 jere wrote: You mean you cant 1A your Zergling Hydra or speed Roach Hydra army. Since units move at different speeds. Kinda like Protoss can not 1A Zealot Stalker, the Stalkers get there too fast and are killed, then the Zealots show up and die. Every Protoss knows that the Zealots need some room infront to move with the Stalker.
It's not just not being able to 1-A (which no good Zerg does anyway, you really need to flank to get good results), it's the fact that Hydras cannot retreat or chase down enemies off-creep. And spreading creep isn't enough of a solution, considering how easily it can be razed.
I want to say that I deeply regret hydra not being as useful as it could be because the things that changed from sc1 to 2 about this unit were very interesting IMO.
The fact that it became a very creep dependant unit was a very good idea, there had to be more of these than just the queens. Obviously the queen is a defense/macro unit wich make the hydra the only attack unit that absolutely needs a very good creep spread to be fully efficient. That allows zerg to choose between muta/ling wich doesn't require creep and allows harass and map control, or a strong force of deadly hydras that forces them to spread creep throughout the game. that was a great gameplay idea ! I wish they actually developped more that aspect of the hydras, making them even faster on creep and even slower off.
Making hydras a armor piercing unit make them very interesting to use, very "context sensitive" too, so satisfying to see them shred armored units that seemed impossible to get rid of with other units.
But one thing we can agree on is the fact that they cost too much. I would accept having them nerfed in hp if they could a least be cheaper, as it is the zerg's trademark to be cheap and fragile. It is also not fair that they are only useful vs protoss and zergs. I personally don't like zvp and zvz because I love using ling/bling/muta and it is only good vs terran. If the hydras where more fun to use (faster on creep) I would enjoy those matchups a lot more. Hydras don't "feel" like slow units, they are cool aerodynamic alien/snakes after all !
Hydras are the symbol of starcraft for me, don't let them die Blizzard !
Things to help make Hydras viable again without breaking the game: -Decrease gas cost by 25 Either -Speed upgrade to 3 on/off creep OR -Default range 7, upgrade to 9. Puts them in line with Collossi while not being overly powerful. Prob be a Hive tech upgrade at 200/150.
On March 21 2011 00:24 the9thdude wrote: Things to help make Hydras viable again without breaking the game: -Decrease gas cost by 25 Either -Speed upgrade to 3 on/off creep OR -Default range 7, upgrade to 9. Puts them in line with Collossi while not being overly powerful. Prob be a Hive tech upgrade at 200/150.
You kidding me? Max range of 7 would be HUGE buff to hydra and you say 9 xD It would completely break the game.
-Default range 7, upgrade to 9. Puts them in line with Collossi while not being overly powerful. Prob be a Hive tech upgrade at 200/150.
Wow, I'm glad Blizzard is the one doing the balancing. I'm a Zerg player but that is such a ridiculous suggestion, this would completely break the game.
On March 21 2011 00:24 the9thdude wrote: Things to help make Hydras viable again without breaking the game: -Decrease gas cost by 25 Either -Speed upgrade to 3 on/off creep OR -Default range 7, upgrade to 9. Puts them in line with Collossi while not being overly powerful. Prob be a Hive tech upgrade at 200/150.
You kidding me? Max range of 7 would be HUGE buff to hydra and you say 9 xD It would completely break the game.
No it wouldn't, although 9 is a bit ridiculous, I'd say 6+2 but a minimum of 6+1. Hydras would still be slow and easy to chase down with Terran or Toss core units, tanks would still shred them apart, HTs would still shred them, Collosus would still shred them, FFs would be slightly nerfed, and it would fit their glass-cannon theme.
A unit with weak defense and low HP, as a matter of intuitive design, MUST have either: long range, incredible burst-damage (picture snipe for the ghost or DT's attack), or increased speed (I personally lean towards speed over range or damage being the most important). I don't know of a single combat unit in any game that has weak defense, low hp, slow movement speed, and low to average range, that can actually be used with success. I'm interested to know if there are any, but every time I put the question to people who claim the hydralisk is fine, no one takes me up on the challenge.
On March 19 2011 17:13 Fingulfin wrote: GSL spoiler: + Show Spoiler +
July loses game 5 because of the overall fragility and speed of the hydralisk. I think this game represents quite well the problem with the hydra and the role it is (supposedly) intended to fill in the zerg army. It is supposed to counter gateway units, but its insane cost and low speed make it a serious liability. Even if you could somehow afford roach+hydra vs 6 gate, that doesn't help the retreating problem. Hydras are the "best" unit the zerg has to deal with blink stalkers, except that stalkers are ridiculously fast and hydras are ridiculously slow.
Thats not to say that 6 gate blink stalker is OP or that zerg is UP or whatever, just that the hydra as a tech choice leaves a lot to be desired.
Don't engage blink stalkers with hydra off creep?
I'll never understand why Blizzard made them so ridiculously slow off creep. It's just impractical to cover the entire map in creep, especially with competitive maps becoming increasingly large. If you want to force an engagement with hydra it has to be off creep, otherwise you sit back and wait for the bulk of your army to be hard countered.
It really bothers me how everyone talks about hydralisks being ridiculously slow off creep. They're not. They're the same speed as everything else.
Hydralisks are not slow, they're regular speed units. They only appear slow in comparison to other zerg units, which are all very fast.
Sigh when people make this argument I just facepalm. The units you're talking about, which make up the core army, like zealots and marines and marauders, have UPGRADES TO MAKE THEM FASTER. That is what we want for a Hydra - a speed upgrade. We don't just want speed for free. We want what every other races core units have available to them.
You can't count spellcasters and siege units like tanks and colossi, thats just silly.
Isnt that upgrade called "creep"? I just facepalm when people want everything without paying for it. Terran bio have to pay with health (and a click to activate from the player and some more control for Medivacs) and Protoss have their blink-micro. Why is it too much to ask the Zerg to position some creep spewing Overlords or plant creep tumors in time?
None of the speed upgrades for the other two races are "permanent" ... so the "creep speed upgrade" should be good enough and a permanent speed upgrade would be too good.
On March 19 2011 17:13 Fingulfin wrote: GSL spoiler: + Show Spoiler +
July loses game 5 because of the overall fragility and speed of the hydralisk. I think this game represents quite well the problem with the hydra and the role it is (supposedly) intended to fill in the zerg army. It is supposed to counter gateway units, but its insane cost and low speed make it a serious liability. Even if you could somehow afford roach+hydra vs 6 gate, that doesn't help the retreating problem. Hydras are the "best" unit the zerg has to deal with blink stalkers, except that stalkers are ridiculously fast and hydras are ridiculously slow.
Thats not to say that 6 gate blink stalker is OP or that zerg is UP or whatever, just that the hydra as a tech choice leaves a lot to be desired.
Don't engage blink stalkers with hydra off creep?
I'll never understand why Blizzard made them so ridiculously slow off creep. It's just impractical to cover the entire map in creep, especially with competitive maps becoming increasingly large. If you want to force an engagement with hydra it has to be off creep, otherwise you sit back and wait for the bulk of your army to be hard countered.
It really bothers me how everyone talks about hydralisks being ridiculously slow off creep. They're not. They're the same speed as everything else.
Hydralisks are not slow, they're regular speed units. They only appear slow in comparison to other zerg units, which are all very fast.
Sigh when people make this argument I just facepalm. The units you're talking about, which make up the core army, like zealots and marines and marauders, have UPGRADES TO MAKE THEM FASTER. That is what we want for a Hydra - a speed upgrade. We don't just want speed for free. We want what every other races core units have available to them.
You can't count spellcasters and siege units like tanks and colossi, thats just silly.
Isnt that upgrade called "creep"? I just facepalm when people want everything without paying for it. Terran bio have to pay with health (and a click to activate from the player and some more control for Medivacs) and Protoss have their blink-micro. Why is it too much to ask the Zerg to position some creep spewing Overlords or plant creep tumors in time?
No, that upgrade is not called creep. Zerg can't cancel out 10 minutes worth of your upgrades with a single overseer in 10 seconds or less. Toss and Terran can cancel out an entire game's worth of creep with a single scan, raven, or observer.
If you'd bother to read the thread and not decide to troll it up herpaderp style. You would have already seen the creep argument dealt with multiple times.
The Hydra needs an upgrade that increases it's speed off-creep, and it's light status should be removed in place of the hydra simply being "biological". That's the best and most intuitive choice that can be made to increase its usefulness.
On March 19 2011 17:13 Fingulfin wrote: GSL spoiler: + Show Spoiler +
July loses game 5 because of the overall fragility and speed of the hydralisk. I think this game represents quite well the problem with the hydra and the role it is (supposedly) intended to fill in the zerg army. It is supposed to counter gateway units, but its insane cost and low speed make it a serious liability. Even if you could somehow afford roach+hydra vs 6 gate, that doesn't help the retreating problem. Hydras are the "best" unit the zerg has to deal with blink stalkers, except that stalkers are ridiculously fast and hydras are ridiculously slow.
Thats not to say that 6 gate blink stalker is OP or that zerg is UP or whatever, just that the hydra as a tech choice leaves a lot to be desired.
Don't engage blink stalkers with hydra off creep?
I'll never understand why Blizzard made them so ridiculously slow off creep. It's just impractical to cover the entire map in creep, especially with competitive maps becoming increasingly large. If you want to force an engagement with hydra it has to be off creep, otherwise you sit back and wait for the bulk of your army to be hard countered.
It really bothers me how everyone talks about hydralisks being ridiculously slow off creep. They're not. They're the same speed as everything else.
Hydralisks are not slow, they're regular speed units. They only appear slow in comparison to other zerg units, which are all very fast.
right but some of those units don't reqiure speed to be effective or have other movement ablities
Hydra off-creep: 2.25 Zealot: 2.25 has a speed upgrade Sentry: 2.25 have force field to engage or run away Marine: 2.25 has stim Marauder: 2.25 has stim Colossus: 2.25 can walk over cliffs Immortal: 2.25 Siege Tank: 2.25 has seige Void Ray: 2.25 can fly Ghost: 2.25 can be invs
In this post I tried analyzing unit roles in relation to their tactical roles. The problem is that the Hydralisk is a damage dealer, but offers very little of anything else for the Zerg army, which is based on mobility, harassment and punishing the other army for mistakes. They work well with Roaches, but unfortunately, Roach/Hydra just dies to higher tech Protoss and to Terran in general.
Generally speaking, as a (relatively) slow unit, they need to be good at territorial control or breaking defenses. They are bad at both, hence Infestors are a much more efficient way (both for price and per supply) for Zerg to bolster their armies.
On March 20 2011 23:45 Elevencyan wrote: The fact that it became a very creep dependant unit was a very good idea, there had to be more of these than just the queens. Obviously the queen is a defense/macro unit wich make the hydra the only attack unit that absolutely needs a very good creep spread to be fully efficient. That allows zerg to choose between muta/ling wich doesn't require creep and allows harass and map control, or a strong force of deadly hydras that forces them to spread creep throughout the game. that was a great gameplay idea ! I wish they actually developped more that aspect of the hydras, making them even faster on creep and even slower off.
You cant possibly be serious. it was the dumbest idea ever, do you realise what it does exactly? It makes zerg as immobile as terran mech. you can only advance as fast as your creep does. Zerg units are not built to play like that, by the time they reach thier opponents base its gonna be well defended. What then? A-move into a much more effective army?
This creep mechanic is the worst thing that happened to zerg in SC2.
On March 19 2011 17:13 Fingulfin wrote: GSL spoiler: + Show Spoiler +
July loses game 5 because of the overall fragility and speed of the hydralisk. I think this game represents quite well the problem with the hydra and the role it is (supposedly) intended to fill in the zerg army. It is supposed to counter gateway units, but its insane cost and low speed make it a serious liability. Even if you could somehow afford roach+hydra vs 6 gate, that doesn't help the retreating problem. Hydras are the "best" unit the zerg has to deal with blink stalkers, except that stalkers are ridiculously fast and hydras are ridiculously slow.
Thats not to say that 6 gate blink stalker is OP or that zerg is UP or whatever, just that the hydra as a tech choice leaves a lot to be desired.
Don't engage blink stalkers with hydra off creep?
I'll never understand why Blizzard made them so ridiculously slow off creep. It's just impractical to cover the entire map in creep, especially with competitive maps becoming increasingly large. If you want to force an engagement with hydra it has to be off creep, otherwise you sit back and wait for the bulk of your army to be hard countered.
It really bothers me how everyone talks about hydralisks being ridiculously slow off creep. They're not. They're the same speed as everything else.
Hydralisks are not slow, they're regular speed units. They only appear slow in comparison to other zerg units, which are all very fast.
right but some of those units don't reqiure speed to be effective or have other movement ablities
Hydra off-creep: 2.25 Zealot: 2.25 has a speed upgrade ability Sentry: 2.25 have force field to engage or run away ability Marine: 2.25 has stim ability Marauder: 2.25 has stim ability Colossus: 2.25 can walk over cliffs passive ability Immortal: 2.25 Siege Tank: 2.25 has seige ability Void Ray: 2.25 can fly air unit Ghost: 2.25 can be invs ability
how about giving hydras moving while burrowed
As I said pages previously, what the Hydra needs is not anything done to it's stats, but an ability which can be used to enhance it's movement, offence or defence. Since it's meant to be a glass cannon, it would be best to buff their movement and/or offence, what exactly with though I wouldn't be sure.
Burrowed movement doesn't really seem to fit their style, but I think something that can be used for movement would be good. Can't think of anything specifically suited for it. Was thinking of an ability with cooldown called "backstep" which is like a backwards charge, but it's very specific for retreat whereas other ranged units (marines, stalkers, etc) get an ability useful for advancing and retreating.
On March 19 2011 17:13 Fingulfin wrote: GSL spoiler: + Show Spoiler +
July loses game 5 because of the overall fragility and speed of the hydralisk. I think this game represents quite well the problem with the hydra and the role it is (supposedly) intended to fill in the zerg army. It is supposed to counter gateway units, but its insane cost and low speed make it a serious liability. Even if you could somehow afford roach+hydra vs 6 gate, that doesn't help the retreating problem. Hydras are the "best" unit the zerg has to deal with blink stalkers, except that stalkers are ridiculously fast and hydras are ridiculously slow.
Thats not to say that 6 gate blink stalker is OP or that zerg is UP or whatever, just that the hydra as a tech choice leaves a lot to be desired.
Don't engage blink stalkers with hydra off creep?
I'll never understand why Blizzard made them so ridiculously slow off creep. It's just impractical to cover the entire map in creep, especially with competitive maps becoming increasingly large. If you want to force an engagement with hydra it has to be off creep, otherwise you sit back and wait for the bulk of your army to be hard countered.
It really bothers me how everyone talks about hydralisks being ridiculously slow off creep. They're not. They're the same speed as everything else.
Hydralisks are not slow, they're regular speed units. They only appear slow in comparison to other zerg units, which are all very fast.
right but some of those units don't reqiure speed to be effective or have other movement ablities
Hydra off-creep: 2.25 Zealot: 2.25 has a speed upgrade ability Sentry: 2.25 have force field to engage or run away ability Marine: 2.25 has stim ability Marauder: 2.25 has stim ability Colossus: 2.25 can walk over cliffs passive ability Immortal: 2.25 Siege Tank: 2.25 has seige ability Void Ray: 2.25 can fly air unit Ghost: 2.25 can be invs ability
how about giving hydras moving while burrowed
As I said pages previously, what the Hydra needs is not anything done to it's stats, but an ability which can be used to enhance it's movement, offence or defence. Since it's meant to be a glass cannon, it would be best to buff their movement and/or offence, what exactly with though I wouldn't be sure.
Burrowed movement doesn't really seem to fit their style, but I think something that can be used for movement would be good. Can't think of anything specifically suited for it. Was thinking of an ability with cooldown called "backstep" which is like a backwards charge, but it's very specific for retreat whereas other ranged units (marines, stalkers, etc) get an ability useful for advancing and retreating.
the hydra needs a passive ability to fit in with the zerg race, and that would be best as a movespeed or range buff, because an active ability on the hydras as out of place as the active ability on corruptors Hydra off-creep: 2.25 Zealot: 2.25 too slow without charge, made more annoying when youve got it but its on cooldown Sentry: 2.25 prevents fleeing/chasing Marine: 2.25 goes above 3 on stim Marauder: 2.25 goes above 3 on stim Colossus: 2.25 long ranged Immortal: 2.25 hardened shield, very buff Siege Tank: 2.25 long ranged Void Ray: 2.25 flying Ghost: 2.25 requires detection to hit
the ability that hydralisk needs is to generate creep when is static, in a more small radius that the overlord does, if hydra is dependent of creep, hydra must collaborate in the spread of the creep.
On March 19 2011 17:13 Fingulfin wrote: GSL spoiler: + Show Spoiler +
July loses game 5 because of the overall fragility and speed of the hydralisk. I think this game represents quite well the problem with the hydra and the role it is (supposedly) intended to fill in the zerg army. It is supposed to counter gateway units, but its insane cost and low speed make it a serious liability. Even if you could somehow afford roach+hydra vs 6 gate, that doesn't help the retreating problem. Hydras are the "best" unit the zerg has to deal with blink stalkers, except that stalkers are ridiculously fast and hydras are ridiculously slow.
Thats not to say that 6 gate blink stalker is OP or that zerg is UP or whatever, just that the hydra as a tech choice leaves a lot to be desired.
Don't engage blink stalkers with hydra off creep?
I'll never understand why Blizzard made them so ridiculously slow off creep. It's just impractical to cover the entire map in creep, especially with competitive maps becoming increasingly large. If you want to force an engagement with hydra it has to be off creep, otherwise you sit back and wait for the bulk of your army to be hard countered.
It really bothers me how everyone talks about hydralisks being ridiculously slow off creep. They're not. They're the same speed as everything else.
Hydralisks are not slow, they're regular speed units. They only appear slow in comparison to other zerg units, which are all very fast.
Sigh when people make this argument I just facepalm. The units you're talking about, which make up the core army, like zealots and marines and marauders, have UPGRADES TO MAKE THEM FASTER. That is what we want for a Hydra - a speed upgrade. We don't just want speed for free. We want what every other races core units have available to them.
You can't count spellcasters and siege units like tanks and colossi, thats just silly.
Isnt that upgrade called "creep"? I just facepalm when people want everything without paying for it. Terran bio have to pay with health (and a click to activate from the player and some more control for Medivacs) and Protoss have their blink-micro. Why is it too much to ask the Zerg to position some creep spewing Overlords or plant creep tumors in time?
No, that upgrade is not called creep. Zerg can't cancel out 10 minutes worth of your upgrades with a single overseer in 10 seconds or less. Toss and Terran can cancel out an entire game's worth of creep with a single scan, raven, or observer.
If you'd bother to read the thread and not decide to troll it up herpaderp style. You would have already seen the creep argument dealt with multiple times.
The Hydra needs an upgrade that increases it's speed off-creep, and it's light status should be removed in place of the hydra simply being "biological". That's the best and most intuitive choice that can be made to increase its usefulness.
Oh so you want a bonus because you are too lazy to spread creep and too lazy to argue with the point that the other races need to micro as well? You are even ignoring the fact that you could also use a "mobile creep spreading unit" to give Hydras situational speed boosts just like bio units and stalkers? Just get a few extra Queens to spread your creep with more than one tumor per highway and it goes quick enough and will definetely not take 10 minutes.
Instead you simply call me a troll because that is easier than arguing with the points I am making.
Oh and the "remove the light status" (so it isnt vulnerable to any bonus damage anymore) argument tops off the argumentation.
This could all be fixed if overlords could drop creep whilst on the move. If that were the case u could just bring overlords with hydras and have a creep road being made as they moved.
On March 19 2011 17:13 Fingulfin wrote: GSL spoiler: + Show Spoiler +
July loses game 5 because of the overall fragility and speed of the hydralisk. I think this game represents quite well the problem with the hydra and the role it is (supposedly) intended to fill in the zerg army. It is supposed to counter gateway units, but its insane cost and low speed make it a serious liability. Even if you could somehow afford roach+hydra vs 6 gate, that doesn't help the retreating problem. Hydras are the "best" unit the zerg has to deal with blink stalkers, except that stalkers are ridiculously fast and hydras are ridiculously slow.
Thats not to say that 6 gate blink stalker is OP or that zerg is UP or whatever, just that the hydra as a tech choice leaves a lot to be desired.
Don't engage blink stalkers with hydra off creep?
I'll never understand why Blizzard made them so ridiculously slow off creep. It's just impractical to cover the entire map in creep, especially with competitive maps becoming increasingly large. If you want to force an engagement with hydra it has to be off creep, otherwise you sit back and wait for the bulk of your army to be hard countered.
It really bothers me how everyone talks about hydralisks being ridiculously slow off creep. They're not. They're the same speed as everything else.
Hydralisks are not slow, they're regular speed units. They only appear slow in comparison to other zerg units, which are all very fast.
Sigh when people make this argument I just facepalm. The units you're talking about, which make up the core army, like zealots and marines and marauders, have UPGRADES TO MAKE THEM FASTER. That is what we want for a Hydra - a speed upgrade. We don't just want speed for free. We want what every other races core units have available to them.
You can't count spellcasters and siege units like tanks and colossi, thats just silly.
Isnt that upgrade called "creep"? I just facepalm when people want everything without paying for it. Terran bio have to pay with health (and a click to activate from the player and some more control for Medivacs) and Protoss have their blink-micro. Why is it too much to ask the Zerg to position some creep spewing Overlords or plant creep tumors in time?
No, that upgrade is not called creep. Zerg can't cancel out 10 minutes worth of your upgrades with a single overseer in 10 seconds or less. Toss and Terran can cancel out an entire game's worth of creep with a single scan, raven, or observer.
If you'd bother to read the thread and not decide to troll it up herpaderp style. You would have already seen the creep argument dealt with multiple times.
The Hydra needs an upgrade that increases it's speed off-creep, and it's light status should be removed in place of the hydra simply being "biological". That's the best and most intuitive choice that can be made to increase its usefulness.
Oh so you want a bonus because you are too lazy to spread creep and too lazy to argue with the point that the other races need to micro as well? You are even ignoring the fact that you could also use a "mobile creep spreading unit" to give Hydras situational speed boosts just like bio units and stalkers? Just get a few extra Queens to spread your creep with more than one tumor per highway and it goes quick enough and will definetely not take 10 minutes.
Instead you simply call me a troll because that is easier than arguing with the points I am making.
Oh and the "remove the light status" (so it isnt vulnerable to any bonus damage anymore) argument tops off the argumentation.
On March 21 2011 14:00 Attica wrote: This could all be fixed if overlords could drop creep whilst on the move. If that were the case u could just bring overlords with hydras and have a creep road being made as they moved.
OP ? I say yes
The thing is that hydra need to be used with timing pushes or counter to warpgates timing pushes not for a "All around unit" like the roach-stalker or the likes
why not just let the overlord spew creep while moving, kinda like the infestor slime trail? that way zergs could make a nice small little path with overlords, it would make creep spreading easier for lower level players who lack the multitasking to spread creep into the late game AND keep up with the spread as well. (u wouldn't need to unless you wanted it for vision) and the hydras just stay under the overlords and they get the creeep bonus, that way you could have groups of hydras + 1-2 overlords running around doing awesome flanks on units because of the added speed bonus. creep is what needs a buff, not the hydra.
On March 21 2011 14:00 Attica wrote: This could all be fixed if overlords could drop creep whilst on the move. If that were the case u could just bring overlords with hydras and have a creep road being made as they moved.
OP ? I say yes
The thing is that hydra need to be used with timing pushes or counter to warpgates timing pushes not for a "All around unit" like the roach-stalker or the likes
But the question becomes why bother with the hydras when roaches do the job, are cheaper, and don't have such absurd weaknesses? The unit is just absurdly bad overall.
On March 21 2011 14:14 mvpAKAenvyME wrote: why not just let the overlord spew creep while moving, kinda like the infestor slime trail? that way zergs could make a nice small little path with overlords, it would make creep spreading easier for lower level players who lack the multitasking to spread creep into the late game AND keep up with the spread as well. (u wouldn't need to unless you wanted it for vision) and the hydras just stay under the overlords and they get the creeep bonus, that way you could have groups of hydras + 1-2 overlords running around doing awesome flanks on units because of the added speed bonus. creep is what needs a buff, not the hydra.
I've been wondering about that too. Wouldn't it be a fair trade to have hydras moving at the speed of speed overlords at the risk of losing the overlords if Z decides to retreat?
Also, you would have to invest more than just 1-2 ovies, the trail it would leave would be the size of the initial creep spew that ovies have.
I think it would be fair to add overlords the ability to spew creep on the move. The other zerg units wouldn't really benefit from it since they already move faster than an overlord with speed. The only time would be when they are stationary the creep would spread a bit while they stand and fight. It adds some risk reward for the zerg player as well. While he does gain the advantage of having faster hydras he also risks losing overlords in battles as well as losing them when he has to retreat. I think if blizzard added this change you would also see more overlord drop play enter the scene. As well as some overlord pickup micro during battles.
On March 19 2011 17:13 Fingulfin wrote: GSL spoiler: + Show Spoiler +
July loses game 5 because of the overall fragility and speed of the hydralisk. I think this game represents quite well the problem with the hydra and the role it is (supposedly) intended to fill in the zerg army. It is supposed to counter gateway units, but its insane cost and low speed make it a serious liability. Even if you could somehow afford roach+hydra vs 6 gate, that doesn't help the retreating problem. Hydras are the "best" unit the zerg has to deal with blink stalkers, except that stalkers are ridiculously fast and hydras are ridiculously slow.
Thats not to say that 6 gate blink stalker is OP or that zerg is UP or whatever, just that the hydra as a tech choice leaves a lot to be desired.
Don't engage blink stalkers with hydra off creep?
I'll never understand why Blizzard made them so ridiculously slow off creep. It's just impractical to cover the entire map in creep, especially with competitive maps becoming increasingly large. If you want to force an engagement with hydra it has to be off creep, otherwise you sit back and wait for the bulk of your army to be hard countered.
It really bothers me how everyone talks about hydralisks being ridiculously slow off creep. They're not. They're the same speed as everything else.
Hydralisks are not slow, they're regular speed units. They only appear slow in comparison to other zerg units, which are all very fast.
the only problem is Zealot gets charge to speed up, Sentry can use FF to slow you down all the way, M+M get stim, Colossus can walk anywhere, Void flies and attacks while moving, and Ghost got that cloak status. So If hydra is off creep, they can not really get away from them. Of course Siege tank and Immortal do not have anything like that, but they are usually not off my there selves anyways.
On March 22 2011 00:37 mvpAKAenvyME wrote: i just dont understand what was wrong with the hydra from broodwar? i mean even its attack looked cooler
If Blizzard had kept the Hydra from BW there would hardly be any point for Roaches as a cheap unit AND the "move faster on creep" stuff is part of the game philosophy now to enable Zerg to cover the map with creep tumors. People complaining about the Hydra are still thinking in BW dimensions or are overwhelmed by the management of creep.
On March 21 2011 14:00 Attica wrote: This could all be fixed if overlords could drop creep whilst on the move. If that were the case u could just bring overlords with hydras and have a creep road being made as they moved.
OP ? I say yes
The thing is that hydra need to be used with timing pushes or counter to warpgates timing pushes not for a "All around unit" like the roach-stalker or the likes
But the question becomes why bother with the hydras when roaches do the job, are cheaper, and don't have such absurd weaknesses? The unit is just absurdly bad overall.
1. Roaches dont hit air units. 2. Hydras still have longer range and this allows a Zerg to stack his attacking units deeper. Even shooting over a Forcefield is possible for Hydras which Roaches cant really do that well.
On March 19 2011 17:13 Fingulfin wrote: GSL spoiler: + Show Spoiler +
July loses game 5 because of the overall fragility and speed of the hydralisk. I think this game represents quite well the problem with the hydra and the role it is (supposedly) intended to fill in the zerg army. It is supposed to counter gateway units, but its insane cost and low speed make it a serious liability. Even if you could somehow afford roach+hydra vs 6 gate, that doesn't help the retreating problem. Hydras are the "best" unit the zerg has to deal with blink stalkers, except that stalkers are ridiculously fast and hydras are ridiculously slow.
Thats not to say that 6 gate blink stalker is OP or that zerg is UP or whatever, just that the hydra as a tech choice leaves a lot to be desired.
Don't engage blink stalkers with hydra off creep?
I'll never understand why Blizzard made them so ridiculously slow off creep. It's just impractical to cover the entire map in creep, especially with competitive maps becoming increasingly large. If you want to force an engagement with hydra it has to be off creep, otherwise you sit back and wait for the bulk of your army to be hard countered.
It really bothers me how everyone talks about hydralisks being ridiculously slow off creep. They're not. They're the same speed as everything else.
Hydralisks are not slow, they're regular speed units. They only appear slow in comparison to other zerg units, which are all very fast.
the only problem is Zealot gets charge to speed up, Sentry can use FF to slow you down all the way, M+M get stim, Colossus can walk anywhere, Void flies and attacks while moving, and Ghost got that cloak status. So If hydra is off creep, they can not really get away from them. Of course Siege tank and Immortal do not have anything like that, but they are usually not off my there selves anyways.
Sure all the other guys get neat toys and the poor Hydras cant run faster anywhere, right? Just take 2-3 Overlords .... activate their creep spreading ability ... and give them a move command on 2-3 Hydralisks. They will follow your little buggers around and happily spread creep and you dont even have to micro anything (unless the Hydra which was followed is killed). You want the opponent to shoot your Hydras or some "spare Overlords" you built in addition to your supply! It is much cheaper to sacrifice 100 minerals than a bunch of Hydras.
Btw ... boohooo ... if Stimpack runs out the poor Marines cant get away from those Banelings or Zerglings. Just a little sarcasm to show you how the "big complaint" looks from the other side of the fence.
Bout the only time I use hydras anymore is in Desert Strike . AA? Corrupter/queens. DPS vs ground? Roach/baneling.
Sure all the other guys get neat toys and the poor Hydras cant run faster anywhere, right? Just take 2-3 Overlords .... activate their creep spreading ability ... and give them a move command on 2-3 Hydralisks. They will follow your little buggers around and happily spread creep and you dont even have to micro anything (unless the Hydra which was followed is killed). You want the opponent to shoot your Hydras or some "spare Overlords" you built in addition to your supply! It is much cheaper to sacrifice 100 minerals than a bunch of Hydras.
Only problem is OLs only spread creep when stopped. It also takes some time to actually fill the area with creep from OL. Basically whenever you move (ie when you want hydras fast), you are off creep.
On March 22 2011 00:37 mvpAKAenvyME wrote: i just dont understand what was wrong with the hydra from broodwar? i mean even its attack looked cooler
If Blizzard had kept the Hydra from BW there would hardly be any point for Roaches as a cheap unit AND the "move faster on creep" stuff is part of the game philosophy now to enable Zerg to cover the map with creep tumors. People complaining about the Hydra are still thinking in BW dimensions or are overwhelmed by the management of creep.
On March 21 2011 14:00 Attica wrote: This could all be fixed if overlords could drop creep whilst on the move. If that were the case u could just bring overlords with hydras and have a creep road being made as they moved.
OP ? I say yes
The thing is that hydra need to be used with timing pushes or counter to warpgates timing pushes not for a "All around unit" like the roach-stalker or the likes
But the question becomes why bother with the hydras when roaches do the job, are cheaper, and don't have such absurd weaknesses? The unit is just absurdly bad overall.
1. Roaches dont hit air units. 2. Hydras still have longer range and this allows a Zerg to stack his attacking units deeper. Even shooting over a Forcefield is possible for Hydras which Roaches cant really do that well.
On March 19 2011 17:13 Fingulfin wrote: GSL spoiler: + Show Spoiler +
July loses game 5 because of the overall fragility and speed of the hydralisk. I think this game represents quite well the problem with the hydra and the role it is (supposedly) intended to fill in the zerg army. It is supposed to counter gateway units, but its insane cost and low speed make it a serious liability. Even if you could somehow afford roach+hydra vs 6 gate, that doesn't help the retreating problem. Hydras are the "best" unit the zerg has to deal with blink stalkers, except that stalkers are ridiculously fast and hydras are ridiculously slow.
Thats not to say that 6 gate blink stalker is OP or that zerg is UP or whatever, just that the hydra as a tech choice leaves a lot to be desired.
Don't engage blink stalkers with hydra off creep?
I'll never understand why Blizzard made them so ridiculously slow off creep. It's just impractical to cover the entire map in creep, especially with competitive maps becoming increasingly large. If you want to force an engagement with hydra it has to be off creep, otherwise you sit back and wait for the bulk of your army to be hard countered.
It really bothers me how everyone talks about hydralisks being ridiculously slow off creep. They're not. They're the same speed as everything else.
Hydralisks are not slow, they're regular speed units. They only appear slow in comparison to other zerg units, which are all very fast.
the only problem is Zealot gets charge to speed up, Sentry can use FF to slow you down all the way, M+M get stim, Colossus can walk anywhere, Void flies and attacks while moving, and Ghost got that cloak status. So If hydra is off creep, they can not really get away from them. Of course Siege tank and Immortal do not have anything like that, but they are usually not off my there selves anyways.
Sure all the other guys get neat toys and the poor Hydras cant run faster anywhere, right? Just take 2-3 Overlords .... activate their creep spreading ability ... and give them a move command on 2-3 Hydralisks. They will follow your little buggers around and happily spread creep and you dont even have to micro anything (unless the Hydra which was followed is killed). You want the opponent to shoot your Hydras or some "spare Overlords" you built in addition to your supply! It is much cheaper to sacrifice 100 minerals than a bunch of Hydras.
Btw ... boohooo ... if Stimpack runs out the poor Marines cant get away from those Banelings or Zerglings. Just a little sarcasm to show you how the "big complaint" looks from the other side of the fence.
I know theorycrafting is fun, but seriously, I'm almost 100% certain you've never even TRIED doing that. It's unfeasible and ineffective.
Marines can't outrun banelings without stim Ergo, hydralisks are fast enough.
On March 22 2011 00:37 mvpAKAenvyME wrote: i just dont understand what was wrong with the hydra from broodwar? i mean even its attack looked cooler
If Blizzard had kept the Hydra from BW there would hardly be any point for Roaches as a cheap unit AND the "move faster on creep" stuff is part of the game philosophy now to enable Zerg to cover the map with creep tumors. People complaining about the Hydra are still thinking in BW dimensions or are overwhelmed by the management of creep.
On March 21 2011 15:56 susiederkins wrote:
On March 21 2011 14:09 Yokoblue wrote:
On March 21 2011 14:00 Attica wrote: This could all be fixed if overlords could drop creep whilst on the move. If that were the case u could just bring overlords with hydras and have a creep road being made as they moved.
OP ? I say yes
The thing is that hydra need to be used with timing pushes or counter to warpgates timing pushes not for a "All around unit" like the roach-stalker or the likes
But the question becomes why bother with the hydras when roaches do the job, are cheaper, and don't have such absurd weaknesses? The unit is just absurdly bad overall.
1. Roaches dont hit air units. 2. Hydras still have longer range and this allows a Zerg to stack his attacking units deeper. Even shooting over a Forcefield is possible for Hydras which Roaches cant really do that well.
On March 21 2011 16:41 TheKing. wrote:
On March 19 2011 18:19 Alzadar wrote:
On March 19 2011 17:26 cuppatea wrote:
On March 19 2011 17:16 Beabs wrote:
On March 19 2011 17:13 Fingulfin wrote: GSL spoiler: + Show Spoiler +
July loses game 5 because of the overall fragility and speed of the hydralisk. I think this game represents quite well the problem with the hydra and the role it is (supposedly) intended to fill in the zerg army. It is supposed to counter gateway units, but its insane cost and low speed make it a serious liability. Even if you could somehow afford roach+hydra vs 6 gate, that doesn't help the retreating problem. Hydras are the "best" unit the zerg has to deal with blink stalkers, except that stalkers are ridiculously fast and hydras are ridiculously slow.
Thats not to say that 6 gate blink stalker is OP or that zerg is UP or whatever, just that the hydra as a tech choice leaves a lot to be desired.
Don't engage blink stalkers with hydra off creep?
I'll never understand why Blizzard made them so ridiculously slow off creep. It's just impractical to cover the entire map in creep, especially with competitive maps becoming increasingly large. If you want to force an engagement with hydra it has to be off creep, otherwise you sit back and wait for the bulk of your army to be hard countered.
It really bothers me how everyone talks about hydralisks being ridiculously slow off creep. They're not. They're the same speed as everything else.
Hydralisks are not slow, they're regular speed units. They only appear slow in comparison to other zerg units, which are all very fast.
the only problem is Zealot gets charge to speed up, Sentry can use FF to slow you down all the way, M+M get stim, Colossus can walk anywhere, Void flies and attacks while moving, and Ghost got that cloak status. So If hydra is off creep, they can not really get away from them. Of course Siege tank and Immortal do not have anything like that, but they are usually not off my there selves anyways.
Sure all the other guys get neat toys and the poor Hydras cant run faster anywhere, right? Just take 2-3 Overlords .... activate their creep spreading ability ... and give them a move command on 2-3 Hydralisks. They will follow your little buggers around and happily spread creep and you dont even have to micro anything (unless the Hydra which was followed is killed). You want the opponent to shoot your Hydras or some "spare Overlords" you built in addition to your supply! It is much cheaper to sacrifice 100 minerals than a bunch of Hydras.
Btw ... boohooo ... if Stimpack runs out the poor Marines cant get away from those Banelings or Zerglings. Just a little sarcasm to show you how the "big complaint" looks from the other side of the fence.
I know theorycrafting is fun, but seriously, I'm almost 100% certain you've never even TRIED doing that. It's unfeasible and ineffective.
Marines can't outrun banelings without stim Ergo, hydralisks are fast enough.
lets remember the banelings get a speed buff on creep too so hydras cant outrun them period oh its a comparison with marines you want? base movespeeds the same, stim speed = creep speed except it can be used anywhere and buffs damage output damage dealt to itself via stim is offset via combat shields upgrade same range base, 6v5 upgraded, 6v6 with bunkers two marines deal slightly less dps than one hydra, where hydras cost 50 gas more in this equation, and thats before they activate stim tier 1 vs tier 2, so marines can be produced long before hydras can
If hydras had a base range of 6 and the upgrade instead increased movement speed off creep to match the roach we'd see alot more Hydras in play.
As was mentioned, Hydra speed off creep is 2.25 which is the same as alot of other units from other races but they are slow in comparison to other Zerg units which is a big deal.
I remember reading a thread saying alot of unit combos are powerful because the units are able to move together, Marines & Marauders make a good combo because they all move at the same speed. The strength in Zergs army is speed and mobility, our units are, pound for pound, weaker then the enemy races but with faster units we can harass, surround, retreat and the like to take advantage and win the day.
A Zerg Player investing in Hydras off creep feels very much like leaning on a crutch, they are slower then our other units so we have a much harder time getting in the right positions, surrounding or retreating which contradicts how Zerg is meant to be played and I believe that is why we are rarely seeing alot of hydra use.
If hydras were able to move at the same speed as the roach they would be alot better at finding those favorable postions to get a good arc or surround and would better retreat if the situation become unfavorable, they'd also be able to reinforce, support and harass alot better and Hydras would become a much more cost effective investment over the course of the game despite what counters it in a straight up fight on paper.
The Hydralisk has the overwhelming problem of no mobility unless I use overlord creep in advance or highway to someones base which makes my all in too obvious. Its just too hard and too silly to use them outside of defensive reasons which is exactly where I don't ever want to be.
I think the hydra’s niche in the game has changed since the release, and we’re taking time to change our expectations for the unit. In ZvT, we’ve pretty much accepted hydras aren’t really used, but in ZvP with things like mass ling builds being developed, and the potential of high templar being nerfed, earlier spires are going to be more cost effective than hydras. Hydra’s aren’t cost effective mid-game.
But I think that the hydra’s true potential is apparent in the late game of ZvP, because it definitely doesn’t during the early and mid-game. =( I usually go roach/corruptor with some brood lords, but when you are throwing two 200 armies at each other, you’re corruptors dominate the air, and roaches do ok against the ground army. Realistically though, there should be leftover gateway units, since Protoss units cost more. If the Protoss player’s any good, this could cause some trouble. Throwing hydras into the mix when you’re getting ready for that 300 food push makes you’re first two hundred army much more effective, and lets your reinforcements just rofl stomp you’re way home, especially if you throw some hydras into your reinforcements once the colossus are gone. Hydra’s don’t need a speed upgrade or anything to fulfill that role competently.
But yeah, I think hydras are a pretty risky business anywhere else. =S
On March 22 2011 00:37 mvpAKAenvyME wrote: i just dont understand what was wrong with the hydra from broodwar? i mean even its attack looked cooler
If Blizzard had kept the Hydra from BW there would hardly be any point for Roaches as a cheap unit AND the "move faster on creep" stuff is part of the game philosophy now to enable Zerg to cover the map with creep tumors. People complaining about the Hydra are still thinking in BW dimensions or are overwhelmed by the management of creep.
On March 21 2011 15:56 susiederkins wrote:
On March 21 2011 14:09 Yokoblue wrote:
On March 21 2011 14:00 Attica wrote: This could all be fixed if overlords could drop creep whilst on the move. If that were the case u could just bring overlords with hydras and have a creep road being made as they moved.
OP ? I say yes
The thing is that hydra need to be used with timing pushes or counter to warpgates timing pushes not for a "All around unit" like the roach-stalker or the likes
But the question becomes why bother with the hydras when roaches do the job, are cheaper, and don't have such absurd weaknesses? The unit is just absurdly bad overall.
1. Roaches dont hit air units. 2. Hydras still have longer range and this allows a Zerg to stack his attacking units deeper. Even shooting over a Forcefield is possible for Hydras which Roaches cant really do that well.
On March 21 2011 16:41 TheKing. wrote:
On March 19 2011 18:19 Alzadar wrote:
On March 19 2011 17:26 cuppatea wrote:
On March 19 2011 17:16 Beabs wrote:
On March 19 2011 17:13 Fingulfin wrote: GSL spoiler: + Show Spoiler +
July loses game 5 because of the overall fragility and speed of the hydralisk. I think this game represents quite well the problem with the hydra and the role it is (supposedly) intended to fill in the zerg army. It is supposed to counter gateway units, but its insane cost and low speed make it a serious liability. Even if you could somehow afford roach+hydra vs 6 gate, that doesn't help the retreating problem. Hydras are the "best" unit the zerg has to deal with blink stalkers, except that stalkers are ridiculously fast and hydras are ridiculously slow.
Thats not to say that 6 gate blink stalker is OP or that zerg is UP or whatever, just that the hydra as a tech choice leaves a lot to be desired.
Don't engage blink stalkers with hydra off creep?
I'll never understand why Blizzard made them so ridiculously slow off creep. It's just impractical to cover the entire map in creep, especially with competitive maps becoming increasingly large. If you want to force an engagement with hydra it has to be off creep, otherwise you sit back and wait for the bulk of your army to be hard countered.
It really bothers me how everyone talks about hydralisks being ridiculously slow off creep. They're not. They're the same speed as everything else.
Hydralisks are not slow, they're regular speed units. They only appear slow in comparison to other zerg units, which are all very fast.
the only problem is Zealot gets charge to speed up, Sentry can use FF to slow you down all the way, M+M get stim, Colossus can walk anywhere, Void flies and attacks while moving, and Ghost got that cloak status. So If hydra is off creep, they can not really get away from them. Of course Siege tank and Immortal do not have anything like that, but they are usually not off my there selves anyways.
Sure all the other guys get neat toys and the poor Hydras cant run faster anywhere, right? Just take 2-3 Overlords .... activate their creep spreading ability ... and give them a move command on 2-3 Hydralisks. They will follow your little buggers around and happily spread creep and you dont even have to micro anything (unless the Hydra which was followed is killed). You want the opponent to shoot your Hydras or some "spare Overlords" you built in addition to your supply! It is much cheaper to sacrifice 100 minerals than a bunch of Hydras.
Btw ... boohooo ... if Stimpack runs out the poor Marines cant get away from those Banelings or Zerglings. Just a little sarcasm to show you how the "big complaint" looks from the other side of the fence.
I know theorycrafting is fun, but seriously, I'm almost 100% certain you've never even TRIED doing that. It's unfeasible and ineffective.
Marines can't outrun banelings without stim Ergo, hydralisks are fast enough.
lets remember the banelings get a speed buff on creep too so hydras cant outrun them period oh its a comparison with marines you want? base movespeeds the same, stim speed = creep speed except it can be used anywhere and buffs damage output damage dealt to itself via stim is offset via combat shields upgrade same range base, 6v5 upgraded, 6v6 with bunkers two marines deal slightly less dps than one hydra, where hydras cost 50 gas more in this equation, and thats before they activate stim tier 1 vs tier 2, so marines can be produced long before hydras can
I was being sarcastic by pointing out the flaw in the other guys argument. Either way though, that's not good logic for why hydras are underpowered... Apples to oranges.
The hydra cannot evolve to be useful in the game as its current state stands. This is due to the sheer fact that a hydra is completely unmicroable.
Have you tried to micro roaches off creep? That's about the same speed as a hydra on.... creep
The fact is: Units have 4 basic properties: Energy / HP / DPS / Speed
With exception to the energy property, units typically have 2 of the 3 left over traits. The hydra has nothing but dps. It's HP is 30 over a drone for god sakes.
think blizz is letting them stay the way they are now because they are probably gonna make them morph into some other unit in future expansions like a lurker for example. Only logical reason they are still in the game unchanged at the moment
Blizzard has already said before that the reason the Lurker isn't in SC2 is because it's role overlaps too much with the Baneling.
That being said, I don't get what role the hydra is supposed to fulfill that other units can't. The roach is better in every way with the exception of anti-air, and in most matchups I prefer queens, spire tech and infestors to deal with air.
If anti-air is really the role hydra's are designed for I'd rather have them remove hydras. Instead they could add: - Lair tech research to allow queens to move at the same speed they do on creep off creep - Corruption changed to something more usefull, perhaps anti air broodlings on a cooldown?
I'm just a low diamond but been playing since beta. Only speaking from ZvP perspective.. I think we should let the game evolve more, it's been changing a lot. I remember reading about immortals being op during beta, and then for awhile they haven't been used used a lot. Now immortals are making somewhat of a comeback. I also remember brief times when hydra seemed op, then when they were simply used a lot. For a while they were a standard in ZvP. Now they are starting to become extincts as ya'll say, but you never know the use people will find for them in one month. I'm not saying that there's nothing wrong with the unit, maybe there is, but we need some time before we make em 75/25 as one poster suggested:o
On March 22 2011 14:58 Sanasante wrote: The fact is: Units have 4 basic properties: Energy / HP / DPS / Speed
You're forgetting the most important property: when you can get them. Timing is everything.
If it were possible to force tanks - and I mean force them earlier and in greater numbers than Terran would like to be making them - by teching to hydra, that would be great. Zerg could threaten hydra and then go mutalisk to punish an overcommitment to tanks with insufficient bio support.
If it were possible to force a rush to Colossi / Templar with hydra, again making Protoss cut back on his gateway army, that too could be a strategic move: threaten hydra, make corruptors / roaches depending on tech choice, profit.
In other words, the high cost-effectiveness of tanks and colossi vs hydra isn't in itself a problem. What is a problem is that, partly because of Zerg's laborious tech tree, partly because of their cost, and partly because of the variety of early pressure T and P can use to make Zerg delay tech, hydra can't be out in time to force anything.
On paper, Hydra are a core unit: ranged units that shoot air and ground. Like the marine and zealot/stalker, they should be the backbone of a Zerg army, an all-purpose force you can accessorise with a selection of tech. But because they lag behind in the arms race (as opposed to the marine and the stalker, who start ahead of the curve and can stay there with blink, stim, shield, medivacs etc), Zerg ends up trying to play around the hole where that backbone should be. Hence all the QQ about Zerg needing to scout perfectly or guess right to avoid build-order losses. I think it's telling that, despite Zerg having the fewest fighting units to start with, there's a trend towards using even fewer of them, relying more and more on ling/bling/queens and trying to win with them before the window to do so closes.
On March 19 2011 17:13 Fingulfin wrote: GSL spoiler: + Show Spoiler +
July loses game 5 because of the overall fragility and speed of the hydralisk. I think this game represents quite well the problem with the hydra and the role it is (supposedly) intended to fill in the zerg army. It is supposed to counter gateway units, but its insane cost and low speed make it a serious liability. Even if you could somehow afford roach+hydra vs 6 gate, that doesn't help the retreating problem. Hydras are the "best" unit the zerg has to deal with blink stalkers, except that stalkers are ridiculously fast and hydras are ridiculously slow.
Thats not to say that 6 gate blink stalker is OP or that zerg is UP or whatever, just that the hydra as a tech choice leaves a lot to be desired.
Don't engage blink stalkers with hydra off creep?
I'll never understand why Blizzard made them so ridiculously slow off creep. It's just impractical to cover the entire map in creep, especially with competitive maps becoming increasingly large. If you want to force an engagement with hydra it has to be off creep, otherwise you sit back and wait for the bulk of your army to be hard countered.
It really bothers me how everyone talks about hydralisks being ridiculously slow off creep. They're not. They're the same speed as everything else.
Hydralisks are not slow, they're regular speed units. They only appear slow in comparison to other zerg units, which are all very fast.
Sigh when people make this argument I just facepalm. The units you're talking about, which make up the core army, like zealots and marines and marauders, have UPGRADES TO MAKE THEM FASTER. That is what we want for a Hydra - a speed upgrade. We don't just want speed for free. We want what every other races core units have available to them.
You can't count spellcasters and siege units like tanks and colossi, thats just silly.
Isnt that upgrade called "creep"? I just facepalm when people want everything without paying for it. Terran bio have to pay with health (and a click to activate from the player and some more control for Medivacs) and Protoss have their blink-micro. Why is it too much to ask the Zerg to position some creep spewing Overlords or plant creep tumors in time?
No, that upgrade is not called creep. Zerg can't cancel out 10 minutes worth of your upgrades with a single overseer in 10 seconds or less. Toss and Terran can cancel out an entire game's worth of creep with a single scan, raven, or observer.
If you'd bother to read the thread and not decide to troll it up herpaderp style. You would have already seen the creep argument dealt with multiple times.
The Hydra needs an upgrade that increases it's speed off-creep, and it's light status should be removed in place of the hydra simply being "biological". That's the best and most intuitive choice that can be made to increase its usefulness.
Oh so you want a bonus because you are too lazy to spread creep and too lazy to argue with the point that the other races need to micro as well? You are even ignoring the fact that you could also use a "mobile creep spreading unit" to give Hydras situational speed boosts just like bio units and stalkers? Just get a few extra Queens to spread your creep with more than one tumor per highway and it goes quick enough and will definetely not take 10 minutes.
Instead you simply call me a troll because that is easier than arguing with the points I am making.
Oh and the "remove the light status" (so it isnt vulnerable to any bonus damage anymore) argument tops off the argumentation.
Multiple tumors will not solve the problem of Terran or Protoss killing them in 3 seconds or less with a single detector, a group of 4 marines can clear 10 creep tumors in under 10 seconds. Do you think I don't already use multiple queens to lay lines of creep tumors all over the place? Some games I even have multiple groups of 6 or 7 tumors spreading the creep all over the map. The fact remains that creep is incredibly easy to not only stop, but also remove from the game. Zerg can't throw 5 banelings into a tech lab late in the game and force terran to re-research stim, we can't kill a templar archives and force a Toss player to re-research Blink or Charge. But either race can kill off an entire GAME worth of creep in a single push that takes less than a minute, and make zerg start spreading creep all over again.
If you'd bothered to read the thread, instead of trolling it up herpaderp-style, you'd have seen that I already think the idea of using OLs to spread creep behind my army is a great idea, and I'm starting to experiment with it in games where I use Hydras. So far the idea is proving ineffective, I feel that my Hydras are dying too fast anyway and that spreading that creep behind my army with a group of OLs is mostly a waste of time, but I'm not giving up on the idea just yet, because Hydras have good DPS, and if it's POSSIBLE to use them effectively, I want to.
And yes, removing the light status would be a great way to make the Hydralisk more viable in the game, because it's a counter-intuitive unit due to it's slow speed and fragile nature (And still, not a single person has taken me up on my request to point out a unit that is fragile AND slow, not a spell-caster or long-range unit, and still effective in a game). Instead of raising it's Hp (it's only 90 you know), I'm proposing a simple change to it's unit-type.
In the meantime another option has occurred to me. Remove burrow movement from roaches, and give it to Hydralisks instead. It's just a thought, maybe someone wants to chew on that one for a while. But it might actually go a long way towards making Hydras viable, without changing their stats, giving them an extra ability instead. I haven't given it much thought, the idea just popped into my head, but so far I like the thought of it.
With the new infestor change I think roaches simply being superior to hydras might be proven wrong. You need a few roaches to tank yes, but too many will vulnerable to fungals.
On March 24 2011 16:00 Advocado wrote: With the new infestor change I think roaches simply being superior to hydras might be proven wrong. You need a few roaches to tank yes, but too many will vulnerable to fungals.
Hydras will be just as weak against fungal. With only 90 HP to work with, it will take one less fungal growth to kill a hydra as it will to kill a roach. It comes down to effective use of resources at that point, and then I don't think Hydras meet the requirement.
hydras will always have their place. just thinking about ZvP b/c i actually play that matchup on both sides, hydras are great units to have if they're rushing you w/ a few void rays or phoenix. you don't have to go crazy w/ them. i haven't played too much w/ the infestors yet but def played a lot against them with P. they're crazy good lol makes the matchup really fun b/c i don't feel invincible anymore. before it was derp derp get 200/200 on 2 maybe three bases, but now it's ok i'm maxed let's go. wow that really put a dent in me, time to go macro/harass. battles are also lasting longer b/c of the stun. a lot of push and pull back. love the new change and PvZ on the GSL map is hella fun. safe forge FE? yes plz