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I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and I wanted to get TL's opinion on it.
It feels like to me, that the Hydra is slowly becoming a unit that will see extremely little, if no, competitive play.
This is not intended necessarily to be a balance discussion, just a reflection on current trends in pro-level strategy.
For the longest time, Hydras have been almost entirely unused in ZvT, and that looks set to stay the same way. This is due largely to their fragile nature, and thus they are very weak to siege tanks. Their mobility off creep is also terrible, and mobility is an extremely important part of ZvT.
ZvZ has seen a fair bit of Roach-Hydra play, but more and more professionals seem to be favouring a more Roach heavy Infestor play. While Hydras do still see use due to their superior range, many pros are choosing to forgo the heavy gas investment in favour of more Infestors.
After Patch 1.3, we can expect Infestors to replace Hydras' DPS role entirely, with the added bonus damage to armored units; making Roach-Infestor likely to be the ground unit mix of choice. (Thanks to Mailing for pointing this out.)
However, the main thing on my mind is the current state of ZvP. ZvP has long been considered the main role of the Hydra, as it unquestionably wrecks gateway units. However, more and more pros seem to be favouring pure Roach for their ground army, as Hydras are so incredibly weak to Collossus. The problem is that Hydras are a hefty gas investment, and while they do significant damage, they are absolutely wrecked by a critical mass of Collossus. Thus more and more Zerg players are favouring the beefier roach.
This is a problem for Blizzard, as any unit which becomes unused is somewhat of a white elephant. The problem isn't necessarily that the Hydra is a BAD unit, it seems to be more that it does not have a definite role to fill anymore.
I feel that more and more, we will be seeing Hydras used less in competitive play, until contemporary strategies begin to omit them entirely.
Perhaps the real issue with the Hydra is that it does not seem to fit the mould of a Zerg unit. The Hydra is a glass cannon, which seems at complete odds with the Zerg theme of cheap, massable weak units.
I feel the need to emphasise here that this is NOT a balance QQ. I do not think the Hydra needs to be improved or buffed, I just think it needs to be changed. I don't think it functions well as a Zerg unit in its current state.
Do you think the Hydra's days in competitive play are numbered?
tl;dr - The Hydra is struggling to fulfill a significant role in the matchups, and may soon become largely unused in its current state. This is most notable in ZvP.
Poll: Do you think the Hydra is a "dying" unit?Yes. (1788) 67% No. (522) 19% Too soon to tell. (371) 14% 2681 total votes Your vote: Do you think the Hydra is a "dying" unit? (Vote): Yes. (Vote): No. (Vote): Too soon to tell.
Poll: Do you think the Hydra needs to be changed?Yes, it cannot remain as it is. (1695) 75% I think the game will evolve to make it more viable. (351) 15% No, it's perfectly fine. (220) 10% 2266 total votes Your vote: Do you think the Hydra needs to be changed? (Vote): Yes, it cannot remain as it is. (Vote): No, it's perfectly fine. (Vote): I think the game will evolve to make it more viable.
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i wonder if a bronze protoss player was the first to vote. and this probably will get closed because it will be considered balance.
on topic: i believe the hydra is too imobile and and flaky and i would rather have 1 roach than 2 hydras. k not really. but i'd rather have a roach than a hydra.
edit: but i'd take a hydraroach over a hydra--or a roach any day.
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i think if they just give hydra the speed upgrade for 150/150 and the unit will be fixed
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It wasn't really intended to be balance.
I don't think the Hydra necessarily needs to be IMPROVED, just altered.
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well with all balance aside. and just looking at it from a spectators point of view.
its boring. doesnt fit zerg. i mean honestly how does slow glass cannon dps fit in with a swarming bee hive race??? and well, yeah it just doesnt fit the game.
the only reason id ever use it is if i didnt have enough queens and needed some quick AA.
then just ignore them the rest of the game. because well yeah....they just dont fit.
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On March 08 2011 09:00 Subversion wrote: It wasn't really intended to be balance.
I don't think the Hydra necessarily needs to be IMPROVED, just altered.
exactly my thoughts, it's not like the unit is BAD, just that it doesn't fit with the zerg mobile army at all.
A speed upgrade may be all it needs, though i think there could be more done to help it become a more interesting unit overall.
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i've been seeing a small resurgence of hydra in zvz and zvt, but it's almost never effective lol.
i think hydras CAN be useful in zvp (most obvious uses are against 4gate immortal pushes or pheonixes), but i really dislike them on larger maps. harder to spread creep, harder to make them mobile enough to do anything, and its easier for pheonixes to pick them off in low numbers. i think the best fix would be for their upgrade to give +2 range, it wouldn't break the game or anything (as they're too weak right now) but give the hydra a much more useful role (a weak but powerful "siege" unit).
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After 1.3, Hydra will never be seen in ZvZ again.
Infestors and their + damage to armored will take over their DPS role IMO.
This will also be the same for void rays and stalkers.... hydra just don't live long enough for their DPS to matter.
Bring THESE back.
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If colossi are nerfed to affect light units specifically, then hydras will still be "useful" in ZvP.
Hydras are an economy dump. Woops got extra resources, time to spam hydras!
Seriously, when in ZvZ do you say "i need hydras because these roaches are just not working out vs roaches" ?
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Too weak, too slow. It's a garbage unit.
I was having huge problems against Protoss for the longest time until I just stopped making Hydra.
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There's something wrong with the unit, I just cannot say what. I mean the hydra isn't a bad unit on paper, but the glass cannon role doesn't really fit well with the 2 units your opponent will be massing no matter what(tank/colossi) counter them. Imo: If they were given more hp, they'd be to strong, if they were given more speed, they'd be to strong, if they were given more dmg, they'd be to strong.
In essence, I think like you, that their role needs to be seriously looked at and the unit totally changed. Mind this will never happen before HotS.
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The hydra is so niche in my play currently.
I'll only use them to hold off certain 1 base protoss pushes. However if the game goes towards a macro game,.... I prefer corruptors to do my anti-air damage. With the templar/colossus/siege tank units available, the hydra is too cost and supply ineffective.
I haven't used hydras in ZvZ in a while either unless i'm dealing with a 1 base muta rush. Even then, at some point I stop hydra production for infestor roach.
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hydra zvp imo is very strong since it pretty much owns all gateway units. people say that its a dying unit only because protoss has been recently turning towards non-gateway units as their main go-to units such as the collosus, void ray. however zvt i feel like they are a little weak.
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On March 08 2011 09:06 Mailing wrote:After 1.3, Hydra will never be seen in ZvZ again. Infestors and their + damage to armored will take over their DPS role IMO. This will also be the same for void rays and stalkers.... hydra just don't live long enough for their DPS to matter. Bring THESE back.
1.3 patch is a good point, i'm gonna add that to the OP
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1 food 75mineral/25gas hydras. Bit more speed off creep. 7 to light 10 to armored. Unit size reduced. BW style hydra.
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The problem with Hydra at the moment is that as soon as you take them off creep, you're essentially going all in with them, as retreat is not an option. ZvZ is currently the only matchup where hydras really see use, or they get broken out as an AA unit in ZvP.
The easiest/best change to hydras imo would be to give them tunnelling claws, this would make people more willing to use them in their army in ZvP because they can do FF avoidance just like with roaches, currently, if you burrow to avoid FF, your hydras sit still and die, and if you burrow your roaches only, theyre not tanking for your hydras anymore and are dying. The problem mainly is that hydras don't actually work too great with roaches! Apart from being able to outrange them, they still sit at perfect collosus range though. In ZvZ, really you just use them to get an extra bit of DPS out due to range where your roaches wouldn't, it's really map dependent, again, infestors are better than hydras. I can't imagine a situation where you'd build Hydras in ZvT, there's the fungal/hydra range trick, but that's about to become even worse with the new patch.
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as it stands in my opinion is that, Hydra dps in large numbers is great, survivability on the other hand not so much, well positioned hydras flanking can deal massive dmg when maneuvered correctly (think shattered temple, engaging a toss ball in the middle of the map from 2-3 angles. The problem i personally find is that it is too hard to get them into position quick enough so the fact of the matter is, glass cannon unit's always seem underpowered in a straight up fights but i think in the future ( im thinking Moon's drop play in gsl) zergs will find that hydras can be of great use in different ways, a buff may be needed because off creep they are basically useless, so i'd only suggest movement speed increase off creep OR an hp increase but both seem overkill
im just spit-ballin my ideas here so dont take too much offense if you do not agree :D
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Hydras already see lots of good use in ZvZ and ZvP.
If anything, they're just undervalued in ZvT. Hydra / infestor is an incredible late game against terran.
Fungal + hydras decimates anything poking out from existing siege tank lines, really shuts down their army's advancement.
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You know, the Lurker actually fits the role the Hydra was supposed to fill, better than the Hydra.
I mean, the Hydra is generally considered close-range artillery, right? Well, the Lurker actually IS close range artillery.
Just food for thought.
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It's definitely a balance discussion. Just compare Hydras, a tier 2 unit, to Marines, and it becomes rather obvious why top tier players don't use them.
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