On March 08 2011 14:05 Lobotomist wrote: What would happen if you changed the hydra's armor type from light to none (just bio)? They still won't be cost effective against terran, but can do MUCH better in ZvP, as they aren't super hard-countered by collosi.
I thought Colossi don't do additional damage to light, they just to a set amount of damage? Have I been fooled all along?
No you are indeed correct and the poster you quoted is not. The only units with a bonus to light ground are hellions, reapers, banelings and ghosts. The Hydra's light classification doesn't hinder it in any significant way.
I've always loved Hydras, but currently they're not a needed unit. I still like to build them in ZvZ and ZvP, but other units fulfil the Hydra Role in a better way.
On March 08 2011 14:18 TheDominator wrote: The problem is in the mobility and the survivability. The cost is fine, space is fine, damage is fine, etc. However, I would prefer survivability over mobility. Just make hydras actually survive collosi for longer, then they would be used a bit more late game. However, they are still great choices when the opponent has few/no collosi and you have plenty of resources. Also, there was this hydra/ling strat that came out recently and is apparently very effective. EDIT: They also nullify air. Most of the time.
if there's two way to fix a problem. i would much rather pick the one that increases the skill level of the game.
speed over survivability is my pick.
speed actually increases survivability too since you can run away from battle keeping your hydras alive instead of being committed everytime you have a hydra army.
On March 08 2011 14:05 Lobotomist wrote: What would happen if you changed the hydra's armor type from light to none (just bio)? They still won't be cost effective against terran, but can do MUCH better in ZvP, as they aren't super hard-countered by collosi.
EDIT: Collosi don't get bonuses vs light. Well I guess you learn something new every day A health and/or speed buff seem like an obvious fix for hydras, but maybe something to make it more niche like a passive slow or stacking damage or stacking range reduction on units hit.
they should make hydras bio rather than light, because they get owned just too easily by phoenixs that do bonus to light also blue flame hellions wouldn't be so effective against them so we could see them used somewhat in ZvT. Also as bio classification, they wouldn't get stomped by banelings so easily making hydras slightly more viable in ZvZ.
Also making hydras T1 with BW stats wouldn't help either, because zerg already has queens for early air defense. I think early air builds should remain viable, it doesn't seem balanced if XvZ is made so that there is just no way to go air because of queens and hydras. I just can't see T1 hydras fitting in the current game when roaches are already in it. And if roaches were T2 we'd get stomped by hellion and reaper pushes, 4 gate would crush zerg players and banelings would be all we see in ZvZ. Roaches need to remain T1 and hydras need to remain T2.
With the change to infestors, Hydras will become more or less the only way to counter early Phoenix rushes, as well as early banshee pushes. With fungal growth becoming a relatively slow moving projectile, hitting stimmed marines or blink stalkers will be difficult, let alone phoenixes.
Hydras will still have a role in ZvP, though it is shrinking significantly. They're still good at holding off Gateway units with relative ease, do well against protoss air (with the exception of carriers), and are decent against templar tech is micro'd effectively.
Since they are supposed to be the damage dealers in the back like, tanks, void rays, coli etc they do seem a little light on the armor and durability... this is coming from a terran.
On March 08 2011 14:33 Logican wrote: even though u didnt INTEND for it to be balanced, it TURNED OUT to be a flat out balance discussion. guilty act without guilty mind.
Cols need nerf, hydras are fine.
I still maintain that Hydra's problem isn't being bad, its that it doesn't fit with the Zerg race in its current state.
Like I actually think if Hydras were a Terran unit, Terran would use them, lol.
On March 08 2011 14:33 Logican wrote: even though u didnt INTEND for it to be balanced, it TURNED OUT to be a flat out balance discussion. guilty act without guilty mind.
Cols need nerf, hydras are fine.
I still maintain that Hydra's problem isn't being bad, its that it doesn't fit with the Zerg race in its current state.
Like I actually think if Hydras were a Terran unit, Terran would use them, lol.
i doubt it.. why would terran ever use hydras over marines?
they wouldn't obviously, as a hydra does the exact same damage as 2 unstimmed marines, where 2 marines are 50 gas cheaper and has the ability to stim for greater dps and much faster movement..
Just not that great of a unit, i only use it in ZvZ because im not a fan of inestor in ZvZ, but if next patch goes through as is then infestor will be the only way to go.
ZvT obviously never used, vP im not 100% sure if they are worth it personally, i have a lot of success with roach/corrupter, arguably the same or more as roach/corrupter/hydra.
except for the fact that it is ranged and can attack air.
So your pretty much paying 75 minerals and 50 gas extra just to get 45 extra hp (too little, hydras die too ez), ranged attack, and air attack
In addition, you also lose the mobility of a zergling. There is no dark swarm to support Hydra's low heath and no lurker transition.
Hydras used to be the backbone of the Zerg's arsenal. I rather they made Hydras tier 1.5 and roaches tier 2 but its too late for that. Blizzard really screwed up with the hydralisk.
On March 08 2011 09:20 Ownos wrote: Yeah a unit that compeltely trumps all protoss infantry is garbage. If there is a reason you won't see a lot of hydras in late game play is because of colossi.
Come on hydras aren't even that great vs. gateway army if toss knows what to do. Good forcefields/zealots and you hydras are dead. Also phoenixes tear apart them even though hydras should counter them.
If toss makes a push with phoenix/zealot/stalker and you have hydras then you are dead. You may think "cool hydras are perfect counter to phoenix/zealot/stalker", but no, poenixes lift up all hydras and you no longer have army.
And collosus tech is really easy to get, that means even if you got hydras mid game that means you have very very small timing window to do anything with them until collosus pop out.
On March 08 2011 14:33 Logican wrote: even though u didnt INTEND for it to be balanced, it TURNED OUT to be a flat out balance discussion. guilty act without guilty mind.
Cols need nerf, hydras are fine.
I still maintain that Hydra's problem isn't being bad, its that it doesn't fit with the Zerg race in its current state.
Like I actually think if Hydras were a Terran unit, Terran would use them, lol.
Yeah, but then they'd have stim :p
I think the Hydra's durability really works against them. What happens is they're t2, but not really effective until you get the range upgrade, maybe some other ups too, and get a decent amount of them.
I think when the problem arises, and this is either a problem with the way the race is, or is played, is because Zerg gets access to Hydra tech early enough to use it for defensive needs, but by the time the Zerg would be able to push with it, and has the numbers or upgrades to do so, the opponent will have units out that deal with the Hydra, like tanks, or colossus, or whatever, because the Hydra is very fragile to these kinds of units. So you get this unit, that can't really be used offensively outside of a few specific busts/timing pushes, because by the time it reaches its full potential to deal damage, it is nullified by something else. I'm not saying it can't be used for harass, but I'm talking about as a main army unit.
On March 08 2011 15:10 aztrorisk wrote: Hydras suck
they have the exact same dps as a zergling
except for the fact that it is ranged and can attack air.
So your pretty much paying 75 minerals and 50 gas extra just to get 45 extra hp (too little, hydras die too ez), ranged attack, and air attack
In addition, you also lose the mobility of a zergling. There is no dark swarm to support Hydra's low heath and no lurker transition.
Hydras used to be the backbone of the Zerg's arsenal. I rather they made Hydras tier 1.5 and roaches tier 2 but its too late for that. Blizzard really screwed up with the hydralisk.
More like the entire Zerg race as a whole. They completely remove units that fill seemingly important roles (AOE damage (Lurkers), tier 1/2 anti air (hydras and scourge), support spellcaster (defiler)) and put in infestors, banelings and corruptors in their place? Not only are these units far less effective at those roles, they are way less interesting and fun to use.
The only way I can see hydras even being somewhat interesting under the current tech tree is some combination of 1) lowering their cost to 100/25 2) making them do less damage vs light and more/same damage vs armored so they have a more defined role 3) giving them a damn speed upgrade. The fact that hydras lose 33% of their speed off creep compared to how other units lose 23% seems like just another shitty idea Blizzard just pulled out of their ass and fell in love with; you know, kind of like the mothership and the reaper.
On March 08 2011 15:10 aztrorisk wrote: Hydras suck
they have the exact same dps as a zergling
except for the fact that it is ranged and can attack air.
So your pretty much paying 75 minerals and 50 gas extra just to get 45 extra hp (too little, hydras die too ez), ranged attack, and air attack
In addition, you also lose the mobility of a zergling. There is no dark swarm to support Hydra's low heath and no lurker transition.
Hydras used to be the backbone of the Zerg's arsenal. I rather they made Hydras tier 1.5 and roaches tier 2 but its too late for that. Blizzard really screwed up with the hydralisk.
More like the entire zerg race as a whole. They completely remove essential units that fill seemingly important roles (AOE damage (Lurkers), tier 1/2 anti air (hydras and scourge), support spellcaster (defiler)) and put in infestors, banelings and corruptors in their place? Not only are these units far less effective at those roles, they are way less interesting and fun to use.
I don't play zerg so I can't really comment on their usefulness and since I'm a Terran I don't really see them ever, but as far as Hydras go, maybe make them Hatch tech at 100/25 (Marauder cost) with no creep speed bonus but kick their base speed up a notch. Maybe that's a bit too much but I feel like if you removed the Hydra's bonus off creep and just made their speed on creep their standard speed a lot of issues with them would be gone.
Going from 80hp back to 90hp would actually be a decent buff - goes from Colossi 2-shotting to 3-shotting which should be noticeable, as well as 4-shot --> 5 shot for phoenixes. Perhaps making the range upgrade +2 instead of +1 would also help their survivability and usefulness (too much?) As far as glass cannons go though, they sure seem to pale in comparison to marines. Not only do marines give more bang for the buck, they feel expendable, while hydras feel expensive.
Hydras would be a lot better if there was some way for zergs to force battles to happen on creep. Hydras can actually be microed on creep - perhaps offensive creep spreading will become more popular in the future, but it is hard to establish due to how easy it is to kill creep tumors and overlords. Perhaps creep should persist longer after overlords/creep tumors are gone, but it's hard to buff offensive creep without also making it more powerful for expansion denial.
Hydras are great to have a few of. They cover your ground armies, defend your bases and they are great for drops and nydus. They are the only zerg unit which can really use high ground line of sight play, except for perhaps the infestor.
I voted "No, they are not dying" because they have very specific use, mostly late game when you can get away with having access to all techs.
I voted "Yes, they need a change" because I'd like to see those uses broadened. The unit itself is powerful but it doesn't really move well with the rest of the zerg army, doesn't fit well in a control group with other units