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United States1772 Posts
GOAT Addendum: Maru and the perception of Code S
With Code S fully underway, we find ourselves in an increasingly familiar situation. Maru, fresh off claiming his eighth Code S title, has already advanced to the Round of 8, and looks poised to win the tournament for a ninth time.
Maru’s position as the undisputed best player in South Korea is far from surprising. Every truly great player leaves behind a legacy and Maru’s will inevitably be tied to his complete dominance of the most prestigious competition in StarCraft II history. Four titles ahead of the closest contender, Maru is the unquestioned king of Code S. But, given how absolute his reign has been, his success begs questions. One of which is, how do we evaluate Maru’s future success in a competition in which he has lapped the field time and again?
While some might quibble about the current level of competition, Code S remains the gold standard when it comes to individual competition. There are events with larger prize pools and stiffer competition, but none can best Code S when it comes to historical significance and name value. Fourteen years ago, in the nascent days of Wings of Liberty, Mvp, NesTea and MC built their reputation on Code S titles. INnoVation, Zest and Rain continued that tradition—defying the odds by winning seasons of Code S where two thirds of the participants were viable championship contenders. Stats and Rogue added their names to the ledgers in Legacy of the Void and, even now, with an inarguably diminished scene, winning Code S secures you an indelible place in StarCraft II history. TY and Dark may have only won the competition twice, but those triumphs rank among the greatest accomplishments of their decorated careers.
Maru earned his first Korean Individual League trophy in 2013, before doubling his trophy haul during Season 1 of SSL two years later. But, it wasn’t until 2018 that he finally captured the Code S title which had eluded him for eight years.
He followed that up by winning the next three seasons, as well—instantly catapulting himself ahead of Mvp (who had held the record for most championships since 2011). Six years removed from his fourth title, Maru is the undisputed master of Code S. He has won eight of the 17 Seasons held from 2018 onwards. With another three second place finishes to his name, Maru has reached the finals of 65% of the seasons held over the past six years. And, while Maru already possessed one of the highest win percentages in Code S history at 61% by the end of 2020, the steady departure of viable contenders has ballooned his win rate to the verge of absurdity.
While Maru’s grasp on Code S has gone largely uncontested since 2018, the retirement of TY and Stats in 2021, as well as Rogue in 2022 have only tightened his grip. Maru’s record in Code S since the start of 2022 is an astounding 82-42 (67%) in games and 34-12 (74%) in matches. His closest rival during this period, Dark, is 62-47 (57%) in games and 25-12 (68%) in matches. As it stands, Maru has won over 350 games in Code S—a mark that exceeds his closest competitor by more than 100.
Overall, Maru has won four of the five seasons of Code S held since Rogue departed for the military. And, while some might point to the absence of four time champion as one of the reasons for Maru’s recent success, one can’t ignore that Maru pulled this trick when he won four seasons in a row back in 2018 and 2019. He shattered numerous records along the way—becoming the first player to win two consecutive seasons of Code S since NesTea did so in 2010, before increasing his trophy haul to four within the span of ten months. Maru matched NesTea in other ways, becoming the first player to sweep the finals of Code S since the IM Zerg mauled InCa in 2011. Maru tied soO’s record for the most consecutive final appearances (four) and broke Mvp’s record of three Code S titles. Season by season Maru climbed the ladder of the greatest players to ever participate in the competition, with each trophy drastically altering his career. His first victory was long overdue for someone of his talent. His second was the start of something special. His third put him level with Mvp and his fourth was his ascension to a tier all his own.
Then again, it doesn’t feel like it did over a half decade ago. Maru’s first four titles were something out of an epic tale. He wasn’t just defeating his peers, he was grappling fate, logic and the weight of history into submission. His fifth title, the G5L, felt similarly profound—the realization of a collective dream a dozen years in the making.
Nowadays, Maru’s wins border on deflating. Maru was never truly threatened in the most recent season of Code S. Even Cure and herO, the opponents against whom Maru faced off in the semifinals and finals respectively, only managed to steal one game between them. After that Maru took the stage and kissed the Code S trophy amid a shower of confetti for the eighth time. Simply put, he has transformed wonderment into inevitability.
![[image loading]](/staff/Mizenhauer/maru_win.jpg)
I needed something to break up this massive block of text and this fits the bill
Regardless of what some might insist, the majority of the best players in the world still hail from South Korea. These aren’t the “glory days” where 15 of the 16 qualifiers for the 2015 WCS Global Finals were Korean, Code S awarded over 100,000 dollars and weekenders were a feeding ground for Koreans traveling abroad. That era is gone, but Code S is littered with talented players and all time greats. In fact, while the last three “World Championship” quality events (IEM Katowice 2023, 2024 and Gamers8 2023) were won by foreigners, Koreans took up five of the eight quarterfinal spots and, by and large, outperformed their foreign opposition in the group stage. Serral, Reynor and Clem have illustrated they can compete and defeat top tier Korean pros, but the rest of the foreign scene struggles mightily with players like SHIN, ByuN or Classic—all of whom have had limited success in Code S over the past few years.
Code S may not have as many competitors or the depth of talent it once had, but the results of Group B (and the impending Group of Death consisting of Cure, Stats, Dark and Rogue) prove that every victory, even those in the opening round, are hard fought and well deserved. Ten different players have reached the semifinals of Code S dating back to the first season of 2023. Maru and Cure managed to make it on three occasions but, outside of that, only GuMiho and Dark logged more than one appearance—with ByuN, Bunny, Classic, Solar, herO and Stats settling for a single trip.
The honest truth is there isn’t a progamer in Korea capable of reliably defeating Maru at the moment. herO denied Maru the G5L only two years ago, but Maru’s 4-1 victory in the finals of the most recent season of Code S further illustrated the gulf between him and second best. There isn’t a Protoss in Korea who can rival herO, but even he is nothing more than fodder—at least in Code S.
There is always a note of resignation when Maru wins Code S, but even the harshest critic has to admit his brilliance is undeniable. How many times have we watched Maru’s opponents shatter his economy, reset his tank count or get ahead on bases only for them to flail helplessly once Maru starts to work his magic? There is perhaps no better example of the discrepancy between Maru and his peers than Cure. Maru’s former teammate has been the second best Korean Terran since TY retired, but the two of them could never be confused for one another. Maru 5-0 record against Cure in offline Best of 5+ over the past four years is evidence enough. But when you take into account the fact that Maru’s chances of beating Cure in Best of 3 (70%) rises to an even more daunting 78% in a seven game series, it’s clear as day that Cure needs everything to break his way if he wants to win Code S—including dodging Maru.
The same goes for Dark, who Aligulac gives a 37% chance of beating Maru in a Best of 7. This pattern also applies to herO, whose 4-1 defeat in Code S (which happens 15% of the time according to Aligulac) lines up nicely with Maru’s 56% chance of victory. For once, the eye test lines up with the math. Maru looks, feels, and is the favorite in every match he plays.
All of this begs a question—if Maru’s triumphs in Code S feel so insubstantial, how do subsequent victories affect his legacy and his position as one of the greatest of all time? There is an argument to be made that future titles are simply gratuitous. How much does it matter if Maru retires with nine, 10 or 19 Code S titles? He has already long since claimed dominion over the event and, by extension, Korean StarCraft II.
Alternatively, the fact that Maru outpaces his closest competitor (Rogue) by a full four Code S titles while simultaneously retaining his position as the most likely player to win the event going forward means each Championship has an exponential effect on his legacy rather than a linear one. After all, if Maru retired with twelve Code S titles while everyone else was left languishing with four or less, how could that not further Maru’s case? As much as some seek mitigating factors such as the lack of top tier talent, the relative dearth of competitive players compared to the past or the fact that many players’ pursuit of Maru was effectively ended prematurely by military service, Maru is the one winning Code S at a never before imagined rate—not Dark, not Cure and not herO. It’s Maru that continues to add to his unmatched trophy collection with each passing season.
At the end of the day, Code S hasn’t changed all that much. The format has shifted and the prize money has decreased, but navigating the gauntlet that is Code S is as challenging a prospect as any that exists in the game today. The fact that Maru has won the event so often and with such apparent ease is a testament to his greatness and the continued significance of Code S.
It’s tempting to say that the most prestigious event in StarCraft II is no longer about who qualifies or how balanced the game is at the time. That it’s not about who catches fire or who devises the most effective strategy. There are moments where it certainly seems that if Maru executes as he should and avoids some grave mistake along the way, that this Season of Code S is destined to become his for the ninth time. Fortunately, we only have to wait until June 27th to get our answer. Then we can start asking the same questions all over again.
Writer: Mizenhauer
Editor: Mizenhauer
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I feel like people are being dismissive of code S and Maru winning it, is partly because of his lack of success in international tournament which draw the comparison to Serral who choose to not play in any code S.
And I have heard several well-known caster who are being that way, some of them just flat out say Maru is not even a top 5 candidate to win any non-KR offline tournament, despite him making multiple Ro4 and Grand Final. Some of them believe in other Terran like Byun, Clem, Cure or even Gumiho ahead of Maru when they made prediction before the tournament.
Having said that, Maru does need to win another DAMN world champ caliber title to validate his greatness imo, and give us fanboy joy to cheer for him.
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herO only won Code S once in 2022.
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My simple issue with Maru is that he lacks a World Championship, whether that be Blizzcon or IEM Katowice (when it was chosen to be the World Championships)
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I dont understand this addendum tbh. Yeah, Maru is a great player. Yes, he dominates on Korean soil (besides Serral). Yes, he prolly wins more Code S- titles. These things already had been addressed with with the previous GOAT-article. It would be more interesting to have an article with wondering the reasons why Maru is so dominate in the first place. Maybe have an interview or two from his rivals even. Now this feels more like an additional explanation for his number one position, that really doesnt actually add up anything to the case.
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United States1772 Posts
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The GSL has always been a global tournament in name only. A tournament being held over a long period of time where each match takes place in a studio automatically weeds out majority of the world and only domestic players can reliably participate.
If there was a GSL style tournament but instead held in Europe or America majority of the players would be Europeans or Americans. The amount of Koreans willing to move and live in another continent with an entirely different culture and language they aren't fluent with would prevent most from participating, the same way the GSL keeps foreigners out due to how inconvenient it is to partake.
GSL has always been a tournament for Koreans held in korea with international competition allowed to partake if they are willing to deal with the inconveniences that come with it. While koreans are the best players in the world this made the GSL the hardest tournament to win and with price pool to match it became the most prestigious.
Nowadays we have a few players outside of Korea who would be championship contenders if they were to participate in GSL, namely Serral and Clem. They most likely will never participate in GSL due to the inconvenient nature of the tournament. Dedicating months of your life for a tournament with 1/4th of the price pool of winning ESL Europe doesn't make much sense.
GSL will continue to be a prestigous tournament but only because of the average level of players participating in it. For foreigners it makes no sense to ever participate in GSL as the 1st place hardly covers the plane tickets.
In my eyes winning an ESL International is a greater achievement than winning a GSL now. Simply because the price pool attracts all the best players in the world and the tournament format doesn't require you to restructure your entire life to participate.
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United States1772 Posts
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United States13949 Posts
SC2 isn't what it once was, we aren't in the hyper comptetitive era of 2012-2016. We probably never will be again. It's why I remain shocked Maru Serral and Rogue are the only ones discussed as GOAT candidates given the majority of the success of all 3 came post 2017
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Maru has a good chance of winning with the current state of the game. Plus his strong TvT.
But interesting question of how to deal with it. The next person to win multiple GSL titles (if GSL remains) will always be compared to Maru.
On May 12 2024 06:01 Ronski wrote:
GSL has always been a tournament for Koreans held in korea with international competition allowed to partake if they are willing to deal with the inconveniences that come with it. While koreans are the best players in the world this made the GSL the hardest tournament to win and with price pool to match it became the most prestigious.
i remember a video from beastyqt, i think.
In it he talks about the skill difference between Koreans and foreigners. ( before regional lock)
One point he made I found interesting:
Foreigner tournaments usually only lasted a few days.
In other words, Koreans arrived, won and left. and the dominance was clear. but once a tournament went on for a week + and Koreans practiced on the EU server. And he said Korean was still stronger, but you could already see a change.
On May 12 2024 05:59 Mizenhauer wrote:
Please refer to the subtitle. Titling it as GOAT Addendum is just the easiest way to do it (for more reasons than I care to discuss). The article is about the delightful conundrum that is the dynamic between Maru and Code S. Good Luck.
I think you did it on purpose to trigger something. 
alternative: Addendum Maru article: Maru and the perception of Code S (with a link to the old article)
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United States1772 Posts
On May 12 2024 07:52 jack_less wrote:
alternative: Addendum Maru article: Maru and the perception of Code S (with a link to the old article)
There's a limit as to how many characters you can include in a thread title. That's where this problem arose.
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Thank you for writing this thoughtful article. It's made me reflect even more on a topic that's bugged me for like a year now, which is why exactly Maru's many GSL wins just don't quite seem as impactful as he continues to rack them up.
I now realize the answer is pretty much the opposite of a lot of what you write above. It's not that his constant wins just makes us numb to that extent, but rather GSL Code S has simply put not been the most "prestigious" or "gold standard" tournament for a while, certainly not with the prize pool deflation and honestly not since ~2019.
It used to be any player who won Code S was the best player in the world. For the most part, people would agree that at least at that point and time, you were the undisputed best player in the world. That in itself was a momentous achievement, and that's what earned you an immortal place in SC2 history.
And as a fan, if you wanted to be sure to see the highest level of play possible, you would turn into GSL Code S. And you could be pretty certain there was no tournament that was going to have a higher level of play than what you were watching at that time.
None of that is true anymore. Yes, Koreans writ large are way better than foreigners writ large. But it's undisputed that the absolute best foreigners are killers. Koreans have not won a single premier international offline event since 2022 DH Atlanta. Even right now, if you asked me for the top five players in the world, foreigners are going to be three of them (Serral, Clem, Maxpax). You honestly could even argue that Serral/Clem/Maxpax are each stronger than Maru overall (Maxpax is the more questionable one but it's more than plausible), meaning that even when Maru won the last GSL he could still only be the fourth best player in the world.
When Maru (or Solar, or whoever) wins a GSL now, it doesn't mean much beyond that they won a very difficult tournament. And maybe it means they are the best Korean at that point. That's awesome. But it no longer means they are the best in the world.
When you want to see the absolute highest level of play, it's going to be at a premier international event. And if you want to know who is really the absolute best player in the world, it's also going to be at a premier international event. GSL no longer is that tournament.
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On May 12 2024 10:25 Pandain wrote:
Thank you for writing this thoughtful article. It's made me reflect even more on a topic that's bugged me for like a year now, which is why exactly Maru's many GSL wins just don't quite seem as impactful as he continues to rack them up.
I now realize the answer is pretty much the opposite of a lot of what you write above. It's not that his constant wins just makes us numb to that extent, but rather GSL Code S has simply put not been the most "prestigious" or "gold standard" tournament for a while, certainly not with the prize pool deflation and honestly not since ~2019.
It used to be any player who won Code S was the best player in the world. For the most part, people would agree that at least at that point and time, you were the undisputed best player in the world. That in itself was a momentous achievement, and that's what earned you an immortal place in SC2 history.
And as a fan, if you wanted to be sure to see the highest level of play possible, you would turn into GSL Code S. And you could be pretty certain there was no tournament that was going to have a higher level of play than what you were watching at that time.
None of that is true anymore. Yes, Koreans writ large are way better than foreigners writ large. But it's undisputed that the absolute best foreigners are killers. Koreans have not won a single premier international offline event since 2022 DH Atlanta. Even right now, if you asked me for the top five players in the world, foreigners are going to be three of them (Serral, Clem, Maxpax). You honestly could even argue that Serral/Clem/Maxpax are each stronger than Maru overall (Maxpax is the more questionable one but it's more than plausible), meaning that even when Maru won the last GSL he could still only be the fourth best player in the world.
When Maru (or Solar, or whoever) wins a GSL now, it doesn't mean much beyond that they won a very difficult tournament. And maybe it means they are the best Korean at that point. That's awesome. But it no longer means they are the best in the world.
When you want to see the absolute highest level of play, it's going to be at a premier international event. And if you want to know who is really the absolute best player in the world, it's also going to be at a premier international event. GSL no longer is that tournament.
I mean if you're putting maxpax at top 3 in the world, you're not really opening yourself up for a discussion, even if you're framing your post at large as open to debate. Maxpax hasn't won a premier tournament even though he does compete in premier tournaments, albeit online ones. The dude farms esl weeklies and that's about it. This is why the foreign bias arguments are always front and center.
I find it amusing that oliveira's iem win in 2023 is used against koreans but not against europeans. Last time I checked china wasn't in europe.
Also amusing how reynor is left out of the european trifecta, when the dude won g8 in 2023 and is actually in top 3 of europe, unlike maxpax. Is it perhaps because he bombed out of gsl less than a week ago and acknowledging that fact would cut against your overarching analysis? Surely if gsl wasn't all that hard, a world champ and g8 winner would've made it past ro16
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The perception of GSL is pretty easy: It is most likely the hardest regional event to win. Nothing less, but also not more. Saying "GSL hasn't changed" is technically correct, it is still somewhat the same format with the best koreans, who are as a region/nation still the best at Starcraft 2. But GSLs position in the SC2-Ecosystem has changed dramatically. It used to be the pinnacle, in terms of prizepool, prestige and pure skill. It isn't anything of these anymore. Well, okay, it is still prestigous, aka. coasting by its name. Katowice and especially the EWC, but basically any World Championship in the last few years has a much higher value compared to GSL. Actually, that also includes any Masters event aswell.
And I know, people will now immediately jump to the "hurr, but prep tournaments are SO MUCH HARDER to win!!!1"...if that was true, why can't the dude who wins two out of three of these prep tournaments not replicate this feat in an easier enviroment that awards significantly more money?
That, for me, is the true story about GSL: Marus dominance doesn't hurt the tournament, but the lack of titles in the actual greatest tournaments is what makes GSL feel so unceremonial. If Maru would have won one or even two WCs in the last few years, his dominance in GSL would look even more impressive.
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On May 12 2024 10:25 Pandain wrote:
None of that is true anymore. Yes, Koreans writ large are way better than foreigners writ large. But it's undisputed that the absolute best foreigners are killers. Koreans have not won a single premier international offline event since 2022 DH Atlanta. Even right now, if you asked me for the top five players in the world, foreigners are going to be three of them (Serral, Clem, Maxpax). You honestly could even argue that Serral/Clem/Maxpax are each stronger than Maru overall (Maxpax is the more questionable one but it's more than plausible), meaning that even when Maru won the last GSL he could still only be the fourth best player in the world.
When Maru (or Solar, or whoever) wins a GSL now, it doesn't mean much beyond that they won a very difficult tournament. And maybe it means they are the best Korean at that point. That's awesome. But it no longer means they are the best in the world.
When you want to see the absolute highest level of play, it's going to be at a premier international event. And if you want to know who is really the absolute best player in the world, it's also going to be at a premier international event. GSL no longer is that tournament.
This is the "dismissive" attitude that I feel from certain EU fans, or some known caster. So just because EU won 4 offline international tournament in a row (2 ESL, Gamers8 and IEM), now they are automatically better than KR at the top? So when KR won 2 offline ESL in 2022 and none of EU making it to top4 in IEM last year, did we shit talk the EU top for that too? It would only be true if EU players come in and just dominate KR, but aside Serral I havent seen other top EU player done that consistently enough.
There are so many things that went into a tournament result, thats why its hard to just pick a certain period or tournament and call it how things will be from now on. By your definition, Clem was the best player in the world after winning Atlanta until he lost to Serral in IEM? And hes still the best Terran in the world because no other Terran has won international event since then?
And imho, the Seasonal offline events are to promote the most amount of games, not the best quality of games. Winning 2 bo3 in the Winner Bracket (one possibly against a low seed player) guarantee the spot in the playoff, while the rest have to play from the Knockout Bracket with zero seeding is not the best format. I have always believe that the best format for tournaments with stacked roster is round-robin, or true Swiss-format, group stage to seed into the playoff. You have to play against everybody once, and then beat them in the playoff again to claim that you are the best players.
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If Maru doesn't win WESG, but two or three GSLs, will you rank him in GOAT1？
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I will admit that I was impressed from how badly + Show Spoiler +Reynor got walloped this last GSL.
I'm not really bothered by who is considered #1 up till 2023 though, and it'll only be harder to "rank" while Serral is away. Unless he just comes back for every major tournament to crush people.
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France12750 Posts
On May 12 2024 10:25 Pandain wrote:
Thank you for writing this thoughtful article. It's made me reflect even more on a topic that's bugged me for like a year now, which is why exactly Maru's many GSL wins just don't quite seem as impactful as he continues to rack them up.
I now realize the answer is pretty much the opposite of a lot of what you write above. It's not that his constant wins just makes us numb to that extent, but rather GSL Code S has simply put not been the most "prestigious" or "gold standard" tournament for a while, certainly not with the prize pool deflation and honestly not since ~2019.
It used to be any player who won Code S was the best player in the world. For the most part, people would agree that at least at that point and time, you were the undisputed best player in the world. That in itself was a momentous achievement, and that's what earned you an immortal place in SC2 history.
And as a fan, if you wanted to be sure to see the highest level of play possible, you would turn into GSL Code S. And you could be pretty certain there was no tournament that was going to have a higher level of play than what you were watching at that time.
None of that is true anymore. Yes, Koreans writ large are way better than foreigners writ large. But it's undisputed that the absolute best foreigners are killers. Koreans have not won a single premier international offline event since 2022 DH Atlanta. Even right now, if you asked me for the top five players in the world, foreigners are going to be three of them (Serral, Clem, Maxpax). You honestly could even argue that Serral/Clem/Maxpax are each stronger than Maru overall (Maxpax is the more questionable one but it's more than plausible), meaning that even when Maru won the last GSL he could still only be the fourth best player in the world.
When Maru (or Solar, or whoever) wins a GSL now, it doesn't mean much beyond that they won a very difficult tournament. And maybe it means they are the best Korean at that point. That's awesome. But it no longer means they are the best in the world.
When you want to see the absolute highest level of play, it's going to be at a premier international event. And if you want to know who is really the absolute best player in the world, it's also going to be at a premier international event. GSL no longer is that tournament.
I disagree wholeheartedly. When Solar won his Code S, he was also a dominant force in the WTL beating basically every top Zerg (Serral, Reynor, Dark) in GSL+WTL during that timeframe. He also beat Maru in group stage, dominated vs Gumiho, and overall did well in both WTL and this particular GSL.
So for that specific timeframe, he was the best player in the world -> Onsyde / Vitality won yet another WTL and he finally won code S.
That doesn’t mean that he remained the best player in the world for long, but he was in that timeframe for sure.
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On May 12 2024 12:38 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2024 10:25 Pandain wrote:
None of that is true anymore. Yes, Koreans writ large are way better than foreigners writ large. But it's undisputed that the absolute best foreigners are killers. Koreans have not won a single premier international offline event since 2022 DH Atlanta. Even right now, if you asked me for the top five players in the world, foreigners are going to be three of them (Serral, Clem, Maxpax). You honestly could even argue that Serral/Clem/Maxpax are each stronger than Maru overall (Maxpax is the more questionable one but it's more than plausible), meaning that even when Maru won the last GSL he could still only be the fourth best player in the world.
When Maru (or Solar, or whoever) wins a GSL now, it doesn't mean much beyond that they won a very difficult tournament. And maybe it means they are the best Korean at that point. That's awesome. But it no longer means they are the best in the world.
When you want to see the absolute highest level of play, it's going to be at a premier international event. And if you want to know who is really the absolute best player in the world, it's also going to be at a premier international event. GSL no longer is that tournament. This is the "dismissive" attitude that I feel from certain EU fans, or some known caster. So just because EU won 4 offline international tournament in a row (2 ESL, Gamers8 and IEM), now they are automatically better than KR at the top? So when KR won 2 offline ESL in 2022 and none of EU making it to top4 in IEM last year, did we shit talk the EU top for that too? It would only be true if EU players come in and just dominate KR, but aside Serral I havent seen other top EU player done that consistently enough. There are so many things that went into a tournament result, thats why its hard to just pick a certain period or tournament and call it how things will be from now on. By your definition, Clem was the best player in the world after winning Atlanta until he lost to Serral in IEM? And hes still the best Terran in the world because no other Terran has won international event since then? And imho, the Seasonal offline events are to promote the most amount of games, not the best quality of games. Winning 2 bo3 in the Winner Bracket (one possibly against a low seed player) guarantee the spot in the playoff, while the rest have to play from the Knockout Bracket with zero seeding is not the best format. I have always believe that the best format for tournaments with stacked roster is round-robin, or true Swiss-format, group stage to seed into the playoff. You have to play against everybody once, and then beat them in the playoff again to claim that you are the best players.
It's eight premier international tournaments in a row, including both offline and online. I feel like I don't even need to say more on that. You need to do some serious mind-games to try to argue that that's not important in some kind of very important sense.
And I would not even say EU is better than KR "at the top." That's too vague because, like you said, a majority of top 10 players have always been KR. Rather, when we talk about who are the people actually winning tournaments where everyone is participating, it's just undeniable that those players are foreigners. For a long time now.
@Poopi, I'm pretty skeptical most people would have even said that Solar was the best korean at that point, let alone player in the world. I wouldn't on either. But you just made my point. Whatever we make of Solar, you would need to see how he was competing against the best foreigners, such as results in WTL. Him winning GSL by itself is no longer that ergo proof that he was the best.
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France12750 Posts
On May 12 2024 18:38 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2024 12:38 tigera6 wrote:On May 12 2024 10:25 Pandain wrote:
None of that is true anymore. Yes, Koreans writ large are way better than foreigners writ large. But it's undisputed that the absolute best foreigners are killers. Koreans have not won a single premier international offline event since 2022 DH Atlanta. Even right now, if you asked me for the top five players in the world, foreigners are going to be three of them (Serral, Clem, Maxpax). You honestly could even argue that Serral/Clem/Maxpax are each stronger than Maru overall (Maxpax is the more questionable one but it's more than plausible), meaning that even when Maru won the last GSL he could still only be the fourth best player in the world.
When Maru (or Solar, or whoever) wins a GSL now, it doesn't mean much beyond that they won a very difficult tournament. And maybe it means they are the best Korean at that point. That's awesome. But it no longer means they are the best in the world.
When you want to see the absolute highest level of play, it's going to be at a premier international event. And if you want to know who is really the absolute best player in the world, it's also going to be at a premier international event. GSL no longer is that tournament. This is the "dismissive" attitude that I feel from certain EU fans, or some known caster. So just because EU won 4 offline international tournament in a row (2 ESL, Gamers8 and IEM), now they are automatically better than KR at the top? So when KR won 2 offline ESL in 2022 and none of EU making it to top4 in IEM last year, did we shit talk the EU top for that too? It would only be true if EU players come in and just dominate KR, but aside Serral I havent seen other top EU player done that consistently enough. There are so many things that went into a tournament result, thats why its hard to just pick a certain period or tournament and call it how things will be from now on. By your definition, Clem was the best player in the world after winning Atlanta until he lost to Serral in IEM? And hes still the best Terran in the world because no other Terran has won international event since then? And imho, the Seasonal offline events are to promote the most amount of games, not the best quality of games. Winning 2 bo3 in the Winner Bracket (one possibly against a low seed player) guarantee the spot in the playoff, while the rest have to play from the Knockout Bracket with zero seeding is not the best format. I have always believe that the best format for tournaments with stacked roster is round-robin, or true Swiss-format, group stage to seed into the playoff. You have to play against everybody once, and then beat them in the playoff again to claim that you are the best players. It's eight premier international tournaments in a row, including both offline and online. I feel like I don't even need to say more on that. You need to do some serious mind-games to try to argue that that's not important in some kind of very important sense. And I would not even say EU is better than KR "at the top." That's too vague because, like you said, a majority of top 10 players have always been KR. Rather, when we talk about who are the people actually winning tournaments where everyone is participating, it's just undeniable that those players are foreigners. For a long time now. @Poopi, I'm pretty skeptical most people would have even said that Solar was the best korean at that point, let alone player in the world. I wouldn't on either. But you just made my point. Whatever we make of Solar, you would need to see how he was competing against the best foreigners, such as results in WTL. Him winning GSL by itself is no longer that ergo proof that he was the best.
Actually it was the proof? It’s not WTL proves that Solar is the best in the world, it’s that in WTL we saw his potential (like we saw the potential for ByuN in the various online tournaments before his GSL + BlizzCon win) in every match-up, so he had the potential to finally win a Code S title, and he managed to do so.
WTL results by themselves don’t have much value, it’s just a minor team league that mainly team owners / managers care about.
Like when I went to Katowice in 2023, there was a guy from PSistorm and it was like he didn’t know individual leagues existed and were the real thing to gauge player’s level / form.
I was a bit shocked but not surprised, most recent fans / viewers of StarCraft 2 didn’t follow the entirety of the StarCraft 2 scene, so they are biased by the foreign casters pushing narratives even before they are real (example being Serral as a goat candidate in 2019. He is now, but back then it was ridiculous)
To bring back WTL, it’s good entertainment but it’s online + mainly bo1 so we are far from the days of proleague where this was a real thing.
If Solar didn’t win his Code S, no one would remember that he did heavy lifting in WTL, because it doesn’t matter much. His code S title matters.
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EPT
