With Code S fully underway, we find ourselves in an increasingly familiar situation. Maru, fresh off claiming his eighth Code S title, has already advanced to the Round of 8, and looks poised to win the tournament for a ninth time.
Maru’s position as the undisputed best player in South Korea is far from surprising. Every truly great player leaves behind a legacy and Maru’s will inevitably be tied to his complete dominance of the most prestigious competition in StarCraft II history. Four titles ahead of the closest contender, Maru is the unquestioned king of Code S. But, given how absolute his reign has been, his success begs questions. One of which is, how do we evaluate Maru’s future success in a competition in which he has lapped the field time and again?
While some might quibble about the current level of competition, Code S remains the gold standard when it comes to individual competition. There are events with larger prize pools and stiffer competition, but none can best Code S when it comes to historical significance and name value. Fourteen years ago, in the nascent days of Wings of Liberty, Mvp, NesTea and MC built their reputation on Code S titles. INnoVation, Zest and Rain continued that tradition—defying the odds by winning seasons of Code S where two thirds of the participants were viable championship contenders. Stats and Rogue added their names to the ledgers in Legacy of the Void and, even now, with an inarguably diminished scene, winning Code S secures you an indelible place in StarCraft II history. TY and Dark may have only won the competition twice, but those triumphs rank among the greatest accomplishments of their decorated careers.
Maru earned his first Korean Individual League trophy in 2013, before doubling his trophy haul during Season 1 of SSL two years later. But, it wasn’t until 2018 that he finally captured the Code S title which had eluded him for eight years.
He followed that up by winning the next three seasons, as well—instantly catapulting himself ahead of Mvp (who had held the record for most championships since 2011). Six years removed from his fourth title, Maru is the undisputed master of Code S. He has won eight of the 17 Seasons held from 2018 onwards. With another three second place finishes to his name, Maru has reached the finals of 65% of the seasons held over the past six years. And, while Maru already possessed one of the highest win percentages in Code S history at 61% by the end of 2020, the steady departure of viable contenders has ballooned his win rate to the verge of absurdity.
While Maru’s grasp on Code S has gone largely uncontested since 2018, the retirement of TY and Stats in 2021, as well as Rogue in 2022 have only tightened his grip. Maru’s record in Code S since the start of 2022 is an astounding 82-42 (67%) in games and 34-12 (74%) in matches. His closest rival during this period, Dark, is 62-47 (57%) in games and 25-12 (68%) in matches. As it stands, Maru has won over 350 games in Code S—a mark that exceeds his closest competitor by more than 100.
Overall, Maru has won four of the five seasons of Code S held since Rogue departed for the military. And, while some might point to the absence of four time champion as one of the reasons for Maru’s recent success, one can’t ignore that Maru pulled this trick when he won four seasons in a row back in 2018 and 2019. He shattered numerous records along the way—becoming the first player to win two consecutive seasons of Code S since NesTea did so in 2010, before increasing his trophy haul to four within the span of ten months. Maru matched NesTea in other ways, becoming the first player to sweep the finals of Code S since the IM Zerg mauled InCa in 2011. Maru tied soO’s record for the most consecutive final appearances (four) and broke Mvp’s record of three Code S titles. Season by season Maru climbed the ladder of the greatest players to ever participate in the competition, with each trophy drastically altering his career. His first victory was long overdue for someone of his talent. His second was the start of something special. His third put him level with Mvp and his fourth was his ascension to a tier all his own.
Then again, it doesn’t feel like it did over a half decade ago. Maru’s first four titles were something out of an epic tale. He wasn’t just defeating his peers, he was grappling fate, logic and the weight of history into submission. His fifth title, the G5L, felt similarly profound—the realization of a collective dream a dozen years in the making.
Nowadays, Maru’s wins border on deflating. Maru was never truly threatened in the most recent season of Code S. Even Cure and herO, the opponents against whom Maru faced off in the semifinals and finals respectively, only managed to steal one game between them. After that Maru took the stage and kissed the Code S trophy amid a shower of confetti for the eighth time. Simply put, he has transformed wonderment into inevitability.
I needed something to break up this massive block of text and this fits the bill
Regardless of what some might insist, the majority of the best players in the world still hail from South Korea. These aren’t the “glory days” where 15 of the 16 qualifiers for the 2015 WCS Global Finals were Korean, Code S awarded over 100,000 dollars and weekenders were a feeding ground for Koreans traveling abroad. That era is gone, but Code S is littered with talented players and all time greats. In fact, while the last three “World Championship” quality events (IEM Katowice 2023, 2024 and Gamers8 2023) were won by foreigners, Koreans took up five of the eight quarterfinal spots and, by and large, outperformed their foreign opposition in the group stage. Serral, Reynor and Clem have illustrated they can compete and defeat top tier Korean pros, but the rest of the foreign scene struggles mightily with players like SHIN, ByuN or Classic—all of whom have had limited success in Code S over the past few years.
Code S may not have as many competitors or the depth of talent it once had, but the results of Group B (and the impending Group of Death consisting of Cure, Stats, Dark and Rogue) prove that every victory, even those in the opening round, are hard fought and well deserved. Ten different players have reached the semifinals of Code S dating back to the first season of 2023. Maru and Cure managed to make it on three occasions but, outside of that, only GuMiho and Dark logged more than one appearance—with ByuN, Bunny, Classic, Solar, herO and Stats settling for a single trip.
The honest truth is there isn’t a progamer in Korea capable of reliably defeating Maru at the moment. herO denied Maru the G5L only two years ago, but Maru’s 4-1 victory in the finals of the most recent season of Code S further illustrated the gulf between him and second best. There isn’t a Protoss in Korea who can rival herO, but even he is nothing more than fodder—at least in Code S.
There is always a note of resignation when Maru wins Code S, but even the harshest critic has to admit his brilliance is undeniable. How many times have we watched Maru’s opponents shatter his economy, reset his tank count or get ahead on bases only for them to flail helplessly once Maru starts to work his magic? There is perhaps no better example of the discrepancy between Maru and his peers than Cure. Maru’s former teammate has been the second best Korean Terran since TY retired, but the two of them could never be confused for one another. Maru 5-0 record against Cure in offline Best of 5+ over the past four years is evidence enough. But when you take into account the fact that Maru’s chances of beating Cure in Best of 3 (70%) rises to an even more daunting 78% in a seven game series, it’s clear as day that Cure needs everything to break his way if he wants to win Code S—including dodging Maru.
The same goes for Dark, who Aligulac gives a 37% chance of beating Maru in a Best of 7. This pattern also applies to herO, whose 4-1 defeat in Code S (which happens 15% of the time according to Aligulac) lines up nicely with Maru’s 56% chance of victory. For once, the eye test lines up with the math. Maru looks, feels, and is the favorite in every match he plays.
All of this begs a question—if Maru’s triumphs in Code S feel so insubstantial, how do subsequent victories affect his legacy and his position as one of the greatest of all time? There is an argument to be made that future titles are simply gratuitous. How much does it matter if Maru retires with nine, 10 or 19 Code S titles? He has already long since claimed dominion over the event and, by extension, Korean StarCraft II.
Alternatively, the fact that Maru outpaces his closest competitor (Rogue) by a full four Code S titles while simultaneously retaining his position as the most likely player to win the event going forward means each Championship has an exponential effect on his legacy rather than a linear one. After all, if Maru retired with twelve Code S titles while everyone else was left languishing with four or less, how could that not further Maru’s case? As much as some seek mitigating factors such as the lack of top tier talent, the relative dearth of competitive players compared to the past or the fact that many players’ pursuit of Maru was effectively ended prematurely by military service, Maru is the one winning Code S at a never before imagined rate—not Dark, not Cure and not herO. It’s Maru that continues to add to his unmatched trophy collection with each passing season.
At the end of the day, Code S hasn’t changed all that much. The format has shifted and the prize money has decreased, but navigating the gauntlet that is Code S is as challenging a prospect as any that exists in the game today. The fact that Maru has won the event so often and with such apparent ease is a testament to his greatness and the continued significance of Code S.
It’s tempting to say that the most prestigious event in StarCraft II is no longer about who qualifies or how balanced the game is at the time. That it’s not about who catches fire or who devises the most effective strategy. There are moments where it certainly seems that if Maru executes as he should and avoids some grave mistake along the way, that this Season of Code S is destined to become his for the ninth time. Fortunately, we only have to wait until June 27th to get our answer. Then we can start asking the same questions all over again.
I feel like people are being dismissive of code S and Maru winning it, is partly because of his lack of success in international tournament which draw the comparison to Serral who choose to not play in any code S. And I have heard several well-known caster who are being that way, some of them just flat out say Maru is not even a top 5 candidate to win any non-KR offline tournament, despite him making multiple Ro4 and Grand Final. Some of them believe in other Terran like Byun, Clem, Cure or even Gumiho ahead of Maru when they made prediction before the tournament. Having said that, Maru does need to win another DAMN world champ caliber title to validate his greatness imo, and give us fanboy joy to cheer for him.
My simple issue with Maru is that he lacks a World Championship, whether that be Blizzcon or IEM Katowice (when it was chosen to be the World Championships)
I dont understand this addendum tbh. Yeah, Maru is a great player. Yes, he dominates on Korean soil (besides Serral). Yes, he prolly wins more Code S- titles. These things already had been addressed with with the previous GOAT-article. It would be more interesting to have an article with wondering the reasons why Maru is so dominate in the first place. Maybe have an interview or two from his rivals even. Now this feels more like an additional explanation for his number one position, that really doesnt actually add up anything to the case.
The GSL has always been a global tournament in name only. A tournament being held over a long period of time where each match takes place in a studio automatically weeds out majority of the world and only domestic players can reliably participate.
If there was a GSL style tournament but instead held in Europe or America majority of the players would be Europeans or Americans. The amount of Koreans willing to move and live in another continent with an entirely different culture and language they aren't fluent with would prevent most from participating, the same way the GSL keeps foreigners out due to how inconvenient it is to partake.
GSL has always been a tournament for Koreans held in korea with international competition allowed to partake if they are willing to deal with the inconveniences that come with it. While koreans are the best players in the world this made the GSL the hardest tournament to win and with price pool to match it became the most prestigious.
Nowadays we have a few players outside of Korea who would be championship contenders if they were to participate in GSL, namely Serral and Clem. They most likely will never participate in GSL due to the inconvenient nature of the tournament. Dedicating months of your life for a tournament with 1/4th of the price pool of winning ESL Europe doesn't make much sense.
GSL will continue to be a prestigous tournament but only because of the average level of players participating in it. For foreigners it makes no sense to ever participate in GSL as the 1st place hardly covers the plane tickets.
In my eyes winning an ESL International is a greater achievement than winning a GSL now. Simply because the price pool attracts all the best players in the world and the tournament format doesn't require you to restructure your entire life to participate.
SC2 isn't what it once was, we aren't in the hyper comptetitive era of 2012-2016. We probably never will be again. It's why I remain shocked Maru Serral and Rogue are the only ones discussed as GOAT candidates given the majority of the success of all 3 came post 2017
Maru has a good chance of winning with the current state of the game. Plus his strong TvT. But interesting question of how to deal with it. The next person to win multiple GSL titles (if GSL remains) will always be compared to Maru.
On May 12 2024 06:01 Ronski wrote: GSL has always been a tournament for Koreans held in korea with international competition allowed to partake if they are willing to deal with the inconveniences that come with it. While koreans are the best players in the world this made the GSL the hardest tournament to win and with price pool to match it became the most prestigious.
i remember a video from beastyqt, i think. In it he talks about the skill difference between Koreans and foreigners. ( before regional lock) One point he made I found interesting: Foreigner tournaments usually only lasted a few days. In other words, Koreans arrived, won and left. and the dominance was clear. but once a tournament went on for a week + and Koreans practiced on the EU server. And he said Korean was still stronger, but you could already see a change.
On May 12 2024 05:59 Mizenhauer wrote: Please refer to the subtitle. Titling it as GOAT Addendum is just the easiest way to do it (for more reasons than I care to discuss). The article is about the delightful conundrum that is the dynamic between Maru and Code S. Good Luck.
I think you did it on purpose to trigger something. alternative: Addendum Maru article: Maru and the perception of Code S (with a link to the old article)
Thank you for writing this thoughtful article. It's made me reflect even more on a topic that's bugged me for like a year now, which is why exactly Maru's many GSL wins just don't quite seem as impactful as he continues to rack them up.
I now realize the answer is pretty much the opposite of a lot of what you write above. It's not that his constant wins just makes us numb to that extent, but rather GSL Code S has simply put not been the most "prestigious" or "gold standard" tournament for a while, certainly not with the prize pool deflation and honestly not since ~2019.
It used to be any player who won Code S was the best player in the world. For the most part, people would agree that at least at that point and time, you were the undisputed best player in the world. That in itself was a momentous achievement, and that's what earned you an immortal place in SC2 history.
And as a fan, if you wanted to be sure to see the highest level of play possible, you would turn into GSL Code S. And you could be pretty certain there was no tournament that was going to have a higher level of play than what you were watching at that time.
None of that is true anymore. Yes, Koreans writ large are way better than foreigners writ large. But it's undisputed that the absolute best foreigners are killers. Koreans have not won a single premier international offline event since 2022 DH Atlanta. Even right now, if you asked me for the top five players in the world, foreigners are going to be three of them (Serral, Clem, Maxpax). You honestly could even argue that Serral/Clem/Maxpax are each stronger than Maru overall (Maxpax is the more questionable one but it's more than plausible), meaning that even when Maru won the last GSL he could still only be the fourth best player in the world.
When Maru (or Solar, or whoever) wins a GSL now, it doesn't mean much beyond that they won a very difficult tournament. And maybe it means they are the best Korean at that point. That's awesome. But it no longer means they are the best in the world.
When you want to see the absolute highest level of play, it's going to be at a premier international event. And if you want to know who is really the absolute best player in the world, it's also going to be at a premier international event. GSL no longer is that tournament.
On May 12 2024 10:25 Pandain wrote: Thank you for writing this thoughtful article. It's made me reflect even more on a topic that's bugged me for like a year now, which is why exactly Maru's many GSL wins just don't quite seem as impactful as he continues to rack them up.
I now realize the answer is pretty much the opposite of a lot of what you write above. It's not that his constant wins just makes us numb to that extent, but rather GSL Code S has simply put not been the most "prestigious" or "gold standard" tournament for a while, certainly not with the prize pool deflation and honestly not since ~2019.
It used to be any player who won Code S was the best player in the world. For the most part, people would agree that at least at that point and time, you were the undisputed best player in the world. That in itself was a momentous achievement, and that's what earned you an immortal place in SC2 history.
And as a fan, if you wanted to be sure to see the highest level of play possible, you would turn into GSL Code S. And you could be pretty certain there was no tournament that was going to have a higher level of play than what you were watching at that time.
None of that is true anymore. Yes, Koreans writ large are way better than foreigners writ large. But it's undisputed that the absolute best foreigners are killers. Koreans have not won a single premier international offline event since 2022 DH Atlanta. Even right now, if you asked me for the top five players in the world, foreigners are going to be three of them (Serral, Clem, Maxpax). You honestly could even argue that Serral/Clem/Maxpax are each stronger than Maru overall (Maxpax is the more questionable one but it's more than plausible), meaning that even when Maru won the last GSL he could still only be the fourth best player in the world.
When Maru (or Solar, or whoever) wins a GSL now, it doesn't mean much beyond that they won a very difficult tournament. And maybe it means they are the best Korean at that point. That's awesome. But it no longer means they are the best in the world.
When you want to see the absolute highest level of play, it's going to be at a premier international event. And if you want to know who is really the absolute best player in the world, it's also going to be at a premier international event. GSL no longer is that tournament.
I mean if you're putting maxpax at top 3 in the world, you're not really opening yourself up for a discussion, even if you're framing your post at large as open to debate. Maxpax hasn't won a premier tournament even though he does compete in premier tournaments, albeit online ones. The dude farms esl weeklies and that's about it. This is why the foreign bias arguments are always front and center.
I find it amusing that oliveira's iem win in 2023 is used against koreans but not against europeans. Last time I checked china wasn't in europe.
Also amusing how reynor is left out of the european trifecta, when the dude won g8 in 2023 and is actually in top 3 of europe, unlike maxpax. Is it perhaps because he bombed out of gsl less than a week ago and acknowledging that fact would cut against your overarching analysis? Surely if gsl wasn't all that hard, a world champ and g8 winner would've made it past ro16
The perception of GSL is pretty easy: It is most likely the hardest regional event to win. Nothing less, but also not more. Saying "GSL hasn't changed" is technically correct, it is still somewhat the same format with the best koreans, who are as a region/nation still the best at Starcraft 2. But GSLs position in the SC2-Ecosystem has changed dramatically. It used to be the pinnacle, in terms of prizepool, prestige and pure skill. It isn't anything of these anymore. Well, okay, it is still prestigous, aka. coasting by its name. Katowice and especially the EWC, but basically any World Championship in the last few years has a much higher value compared to GSL. Actually, that also includes any Masters event aswell.
And I know, people will now immediately jump to the "hurr, but prep tournaments are SO MUCH HARDER to win!!!1"...if that was true, why can't the dude who wins two out of three of these prep tournaments not replicate this feat in an easier enviroment that awards significantly more money?
That, for me, is the true story about GSL: Marus dominance doesn't hurt the tournament, but the lack of titles in the actual greatest tournaments is what makes GSL feel so unceremonial. If Maru would have won one or even two WCs in the last few years, his dominance in GSL would look even more impressive.
On May 12 2024 10:25 Pandain wrote: None of that is true anymore. Yes, Koreans writ large are way better than foreigners writ large. But it's undisputed that the absolute best foreigners are killers. Koreans have not won a single premier international offline event since 2022 DH Atlanta. Even right now, if you asked me for the top five players in the world, foreigners are going to be three of them (Serral, Clem, Maxpax). You honestly could even argue that Serral/Clem/Maxpax are each stronger than Maru overall (Maxpax is the more questionable one but it's more than plausible), meaning that even when Maru won the last GSL he could still only be the fourth best player in the world.
When Maru (or Solar, or whoever) wins a GSL now, it doesn't mean much beyond that they won a very difficult tournament. And maybe it means they are the best Korean at that point. That's awesome. But it no longer means they are the best in the world.
When you want to see the absolute highest level of play, it's going to be at a premier international event. And if you want to know who is really the absolute best player in the world, it's also going to be at a premier international event. GSL no longer is that tournament.
This is the "dismissive" attitude that I feel from certain EU fans, or some known caster. So just because EU won 4 offline international tournament in a row (2 ESL, Gamers8 and IEM), now they are automatically better than KR at the top? So when KR won 2 offline ESL in 2022 and none of EU making it to top4 in IEM last year, did we shit talk the EU top for that too? It would only be true if EU players come in and just dominate KR, but aside Serral I havent seen other top EU player done that consistently enough.
There are so many things that went into a tournament result, thats why its hard to just pick a certain period or tournament and call it how things will be from now on. By your definition, Clem was the best player in the world after winning Atlanta until he lost to Serral in IEM? And hes still the best Terran in the world because no other Terran has won international event since then?
And imho, the Seasonal offline events are to promote the most amount of games, not the best quality of games. Winning 2 bo3 in the Winner Bracket (one possibly against a low seed player) guarantee the spot in the playoff, while the rest have to play from the Knockout Bracket with zero seeding is not the best format. I have always believe that the best format for tournaments with stacked roster is round-robin, or true Swiss-format, group stage to seed into the playoff. You have to play against everybody once, and then beat them in the playoff again to claim that you are the best players.
I will admit that I was impressed from how badly + Show Spoiler +
Reynor got walloped this last GSL.
I think that it's clear GSL Koreans still can hold their own. But I also do think it's laughable comparing GSL 2024 to GSL 2014.
I'm not really bothered by who is considered #1 up till 2023 though, and it'll only be harder to "rank" while Serral is away. Unless he just comes back for every major tournament to crush people.
On May 12 2024 10:25 Pandain wrote: Thank you for writing this thoughtful article. It's made me reflect even more on a topic that's bugged me for like a year now, which is why exactly Maru's many GSL wins just don't quite seem as impactful as he continues to rack them up.
I now realize the answer is pretty much the opposite of a lot of what you write above. It's not that his constant wins just makes us numb to that extent, but rather GSL Code S has simply put not been the most "prestigious" or "gold standard" tournament for a while, certainly not with the prize pool deflation and honestly not since ~2019.
It used to be any player who won Code S was the best player in the world. For the most part, people would agree that at least at that point and time, you were the undisputed best player in the world. That in itself was a momentous achievement, and that's what earned you an immortal place in SC2 history.
And as a fan, if you wanted to be sure to see the highest level of play possible, you would turn into GSL Code S. And you could be pretty certain there was no tournament that was going to have a higher level of play than what you were watching at that time.
None of that is true anymore. Yes, Koreans writ large are way better than foreigners writ large. But it's undisputed that the absolute best foreigners are killers. Koreans have not won a single premier international offline event since 2022 DH Atlanta. Even right now, if you asked me for the top five players in the world, foreigners are going to be three of them (Serral, Clem, Maxpax). You honestly could even argue that Serral/Clem/Maxpax are each stronger than Maru overall (Maxpax is the more questionable one but it's more than plausible), meaning that even when Maru won the last GSL he could still only be the fourth best player in the world.
When Maru (or Solar, or whoever) wins a GSL now, it doesn't mean much beyond that they won a very difficult tournament. And maybe it means they are the best Korean at that point. That's awesome. But it no longer means they are the best in the world.
When you want to see the absolute highest level of play, it's going to be at a premier international event. And if you want to know who is really the absolute best player in the world, it's also going to be at a premier international event. GSL no longer is that tournament.
I disagree wholeheartedly. When Solar won his Code S, he was also a dominant force in the WTL beating basically every top Zerg (Serral, Reynor, Dark) in GSL+WTL during that timeframe. He also beat Maru in group stage, dominated vs Gumiho, and overall did well in both WTL and this particular GSL.
So for that specific timeframe, he was the best player in the world -> Onsyde / Vitality won yet another WTL and he finally won code S.
That doesn’t mean that he remained the best player in the world for long, but he was in that timeframe for sure.
On May 12 2024 10:25 Pandain wrote: None of that is true anymore. Yes, Koreans writ large are way better than foreigners writ large. But it's undisputed that the absolute best foreigners are killers. Koreans have not won a single premier international offline event since 2022 DH Atlanta. Even right now, if you asked me for the top five players in the world, foreigners are going to be three of them (Serral, Clem, Maxpax). You honestly could even argue that Serral/Clem/Maxpax are each stronger than Maru overall (Maxpax is the more questionable one but it's more than plausible), meaning that even when Maru won the last GSL he could still only be the fourth best player in the world.
When Maru (or Solar, or whoever) wins a GSL now, it doesn't mean much beyond that they won a very difficult tournament. And maybe it means they are the best Korean at that point. That's awesome. But it no longer means they are the best in the world.
When you want to see the absolute highest level of play, it's going to be at a premier international event. And if you want to know who is really the absolute best player in the world, it's also going to be at a premier international event. GSL no longer is that tournament.
This is the "dismissive" attitude that I feel from certain EU fans, or some known caster. So just because EU won 4 offline international tournament in a row (2 ESL, Gamers8 and IEM), now they are automatically better than KR at the top? So when KR won 2 offline ESL in 2022 and none of EU making it to top4 in IEM last year, did we shit talk the EU top for that too? It would only be true if EU players come in and just dominate KR, but aside Serral I havent seen other top EU player done that consistently enough.
There are so many things that went into a tournament result, thats why its hard to just pick a certain period or tournament and call it how things will be from now on. By your definition, Clem was the best player in the world after winning Atlanta until he lost to Serral in IEM? And hes still the best Terran in the world because no other Terran has won international event since then?
And imho, the Seasonal offline events are to promote the most amount of games, not the best quality of games. Winning 2 bo3 in the Winner Bracket (one possibly against a low seed player) guarantee the spot in the playoff, while the rest have to play from the Knockout Bracket with zero seeding is not the best format. I have always believe that the best format for tournaments with stacked roster is round-robin, or true Swiss-format, group stage to seed into the playoff. You have to play against everybody once, and then beat them in the playoff again to claim that you are the best players.
It's eight premier international tournaments in a row, including both offline and online. I feel like I don't even need to say more on that. You need to do some serious mind-games to try to argue that that's not important in some kind of very important sense.
And I would not even say EU is better than KR "at the top." That's too vague because, like you said, a majority of top 10 players have always been KR. Rather, when we talk about who are the people actually winning tournaments where everyone is participating, it's just undeniable that those players are foreigners. For a long time now.
@Poopi, I'm pretty skeptical most people would have even said that Solar was the best korean at that point, let alone player in the world. I wouldn't on either. But you just made my point. Whatever we make of Solar, you would need to see how he was competing against the best foreigners, such as results in WTL. Him winning GSL by itself is no longer that ergo proof that he was the best.
On May 12 2024 10:25 Pandain wrote: None of that is true anymore. Yes, Koreans writ large are way better than foreigners writ large. But it's undisputed that the absolute best foreigners are killers. Koreans have not won a single premier international offline event since 2022 DH Atlanta. Even right now, if you asked me for the top five players in the world, foreigners are going to be three of them (Serral, Clem, Maxpax). You honestly could even argue that Serral/Clem/Maxpax are each stronger than Maru overall (Maxpax is the more questionable one but it's more than plausible), meaning that even when Maru won the last GSL he could still only be the fourth best player in the world.
When Maru (or Solar, or whoever) wins a GSL now, it doesn't mean much beyond that they won a very difficult tournament. And maybe it means they are the best Korean at that point. That's awesome. But it no longer means they are the best in the world.
When you want to see the absolute highest level of play, it's going to be at a premier international event. And if you want to know who is really the absolute best player in the world, it's also going to be at a premier international event. GSL no longer is that tournament.
This is the "dismissive" attitude that I feel from certain EU fans, or some known caster. So just because EU won 4 offline international tournament in a row (2 ESL, Gamers8 and IEM), now they are automatically better than KR at the top? So when KR won 2 offline ESL in 2022 and none of EU making it to top4 in IEM last year, did we shit talk the EU top for that too? It would only be true if EU players come in and just dominate KR, but aside Serral I havent seen other top EU player done that consistently enough.
There are so many things that went into a tournament result, thats why its hard to just pick a certain period or tournament and call it how things will be from now on. By your definition, Clem was the best player in the world after winning Atlanta until he lost to Serral in IEM? And hes still the best Terran in the world because no other Terran has won international event since then?
And imho, the Seasonal offline events are to promote the most amount of games, not the best quality of games. Winning 2 bo3 in the Winner Bracket (one possibly against a low seed player) guarantee the spot in the playoff, while the rest have to play from the Knockout Bracket with zero seeding is not the best format. I have always believe that the best format for tournaments with stacked roster is round-robin, or true Swiss-format, group stage to seed into the playoff. You have to play against everybody once, and then beat them in the playoff again to claim that you are the best players.
It's eight premier international tournaments in a row, including both offline and online. I feel like I don't even need to say more on that. You need to do some serious mind-games to try to argue that that's not important in some kind of very important sense.
And I would not even say EU is better than KR "at the top." That's too vague because, like you said, a majority of top 10 players have always been KR. Rather, when we talk about who are the people actually winning tournaments where everyone is participating, it's just undeniable that those players are foreigners. For a long time now.
@Poopi, I'm pretty skeptical most people would have even said that Solar was the best korean at that point, let alone player in the world. I wouldn't on either. But you just made my point. Whatever we make of Solar, you would need to see how he was competing against the best foreigners, such as results in WTL. Him winning GSL by itself is no longer that ergo proof that he was the best.
Actually it was the proof? It’s not WTL proves that Solar is the best in the world, it’s that in WTL we saw his potential (like we saw the potential for ByuN in the various online tournaments before his GSL + BlizzCon win) in every match-up, so he had the potential to finally win a Code S title, and he managed to do so. WTL results by themselves don’t have much value, it’s just a minor team league that mainly team owners / managers care about. Like when I went to Katowice in 2023, there was a guy from PSistorm and it was like he didn’t know individual leagues existed and were the real thing to gauge player’s level / form. I was a bit shocked but not surprised, most recent fans / viewers of StarCraft 2 didn’t follow the entirety of the StarCraft 2 scene, so they are biased by the foreign casters pushing narratives even before they are real (example being Serral as a goat candidate in 2019. He is now, but back then it was ridiculous) To bring back WTL, it’s good entertainment but it’s online + mainly bo1 so we are far from the days of proleague where this was a real thing.
If Solar didn’t win his Code S, no one would remember that he did heavy lifting in WTL, because it doesn’t matter much. His code S title matters.
On May 12 2024 10:25 Pandain wrote: None of that is true anymore. Yes, Koreans writ large are way better than foreigners writ large. But it's undisputed that the absolute best foreigners are killers. Koreans have not won a single premier international offline event since 2022 DH Atlanta. Even right now, if you asked me for the top five players in the world, foreigners are going to be three of them (Serral, Clem, Maxpax). You honestly could even argue that Serral/Clem/Maxpax are each stronger than Maru overall (Maxpax is the more questionable one but it's more than plausible), meaning that even when Maru won the last GSL he could still only be the fourth best player in the world.
When Maru (or Solar, or whoever) wins a GSL now, it doesn't mean much beyond that they won a very difficult tournament. And maybe it means they are the best Korean at that point. That's awesome. But it no longer means they are the best in the world.
When you want to see the absolute highest level of play, it's going to be at a premier international event. And if you want to know who is really the absolute best player in the world, it's also going to be at a premier international event. GSL no longer is that tournament.
This is the "dismissive" attitude that I feel from certain EU fans, or some known caster. So just because EU won 4 offline international tournament in a row (2 ESL, Gamers8 and IEM), now they are automatically better than KR at the top? So when KR won 2 offline ESL in 2022 and none of EU making it to top4 in IEM last year, did we shit talk the EU top for that too? It would only be true if EU players come in and just dominate KR, but aside Serral I havent seen other top EU player done that consistently enough.
There are so many things that went into a tournament result, thats why its hard to just pick a certain period or tournament and call it how things will be from now on. By your definition, Clem was the best player in the world after winning Atlanta until he lost to Serral in IEM? And hes still the best Terran in the world because no other Terran has won international event since then?
And imho, the Seasonal offline events are to promote the most amount of games, not the best quality of games. Winning 2 bo3 in the Winner Bracket (one possibly against a low seed player) guarantee the spot in the playoff, while the rest have to play from the Knockout Bracket with zero seeding is not the best format. I have always believe that the best format for tournaments with stacked roster is round-robin, or true Swiss-format, group stage to seed into the playoff. You have to play against everybody once, and then beat them in the playoff again to claim that you are the best players.
It's eight premier international tournaments in a row, including both offline and online. I feel like I don't even need to say more on that. You need to do some serious mind-games to try to argue that that's not important in some kind of very important sense.
And I would not even say EU is better than KR "at the top." That's too vague because, like you said, a majority of top 10 players have always been KR. Rather, when we talk about who are the people actually winning tournaments where everyone is participating, it's just undeniable that those players are foreigners. For a long time now.
@Poopi, I'm pretty skeptical most people would have even said that Solar was the best korean at that point, let alone player in the world. I wouldn't on either. But you just made my point. Whatever we make of Solar, you would need to see how he was competing against the best foreigners, such as results in WTL. Him winning GSL by itself is no longer that ergo proof that he was the best.
Actually it was the proof? It’s not WTL proves that Solar is the best in the world, it’s that in WTL we saw his potential (like we saw the potential for ByuN in the various online tournaments before his GSL + BlizzCon win) in every match-up, so he had the potential to finally win a Code S title, and he managed to do so. WTL results by themselves don’t have much value, it’s just a minor team league that mainly team owners / managers care about. It’s good entertainment but it’s online + mainly bo1 so we are far from the days of proleague where this was a real thing.
If Solar didn’t win his Code S, no one would remember that he did heavy lifting in WTL, because it doesn’t matter much. His code S title matters.
But the point is you then had to point to WTL. Because even if it proved he was the best in Korea, you argued he was better than Serral/Reynor because of WTL. That's my point. If you want to know who is the best in the world you need to look to international tournaments. And if you don't think WTL was actually important, and is only entertainment, than actually we have no reason to think that he was better than Serral/Reynor, and certainly not Clem who he didn't face.
And of course, this is ignoring even the implausible argument that winning 2-0 vs Serral and 1-0 vs Reynor meant he was a stronger player than them. At best you could say he had better ZvZ than Serral which is fair because Serrals ZvZ was comparatively bad for a few years.
On May 12 2024 10:25 Pandain wrote: None of that is true anymore. Yes, Koreans writ large are way better than foreigners writ large. But it's undisputed that the absolute best foreigners are killers. Koreans have not won a single premier international offline event since 2022 DH Atlanta. Even right now, if you asked me for the top five players in the world, foreigners are going to be three of them (Serral, Clem, Maxpax). You honestly could even argue that Serral/Clem/Maxpax are each stronger than Maru overall (Maxpax is the more questionable one but it's more than plausible), meaning that even when Maru won the last GSL he could still only be the fourth best player in the world.
When Maru (or Solar, or whoever) wins a GSL now, it doesn't mean much beyond that they won a very difficult tournament. And maybe it means they are the best Korean at that point. That's awesome. But it no longer means they are the best in the world.
When you want to see the absolute highest level of play, it's going to be at a premier international event. And if you want to know who is really the absolute best player in the world, it's also going to be at a premier international event. GSL no longer is that tournament.
This is the "dismissive" attitude that I feel from certain EU fans, or some known caster. So just because EU won 4 offline international tournament in a row (2 ESL, Gamers8 and IEM), now they are automatically better than KR at the top? So when KR won 2 offline ESL in 2022 and none of EU making it to top4 in IEM last year, did we shit talk the EU top for that too? It would only be true if EU players come in and just dominate KR, but aside Serral I havent seen other top EU player done that consistently enough.
There are so many things that went into a tournament result, thats why its hard to just pick a certain period or tournament and call it how things will be from now on. By your definition, Clem was the best player in the world after winning Atlanta until he lost to Serral in IEM? And hes still the best Terran in the world because no other Terran has won international event since then?
And imho, the Seasonal offline events are to promote the most amount of games, not the best quality of games. Winning 2 bo3 in the Winner Bracket (one possibly against a low seed player) guarantee the spot in the playoff, while the rest have to play from the Knockout Bracket with zero seeding is not the best format. I have always believe that the best format for tournaments with stacked roster is round-robin, or true Swiss-format, group stage to seed into the playoff. You have to play against everybody once, and then beat them in the playoff again to claim that you are the best players.
It's eight premier international tournaments in a row, including both offline and online. I feel like I don't even need to say more on that. You need to do some serious mind-games to try to argue that that's not important in some kind of very important sense.
And I would not even say EU is better than KR "at the top." That's too vague because, like you said, a majority of top 10 players have always been KR. Rather, when we talk about who are the people actually winning tournaments where everyone is participating, it's just undeniable that those players are foreigners. For a long time now.
@Poopi, I'm pretty skeptical most people would have even said that Solar was the best korean at that point, let alone player in the world. I wouldn't on either. But you just made my point. Whatever we make of Solar, you would need to see how he was competing against the best foreigners, such as results in WTL. Him winning GSL by itself is no longer that ergo proof that he was the best.
Actually it was the proof? It’s not WTL proves that Solar is the best in the world, it’s that in WTL we saw his potential (like we saw the potential for ByuN in the various online tournaments before his GSL + BlizzCon win) in every match-up, so he had the potential to finally win a Code S title, and he managed to do so. WTL results by themselves don’t have much value, it’s just a minor team league that mainly team owners / managers care about. It’s good entertainment but it’s online + mainly bo1 so we are far from the days of proleague where this was a real thing.
If Solar didn’t win his Code S, no one would remember that he did heavy lifting in WTL, because it doesn’t matter much. His code S title matters.
But the point is you then had to point to WTL. Because even if it proved he was the best in Korea, you argued he was better than Serral/Reynor because of WTL. That's my point. If you want to know who is the best in the world you need to look to international tournaments. And if you don't think WTL was actually important, and is only entertainment, than actually we have no reason to think that he was better than Serral/Reynor, and certainly not Clem who he didn't face.
And of course, this is ignoring even the implausible argument that winning 2-0 vs Serral and 1-0 vs Reynor meant he was a stronger player than them. At best you could say he had better ZvZ than Serral which is fair because Serrals ZvZ was comparatively bad for a few years.
But it’s a meaningless point then? Tournaments winners are not who would have beaten every other player in BoX. It’s who lifts the trophy. That’s why you can have bracket luck etc. Was Oliveira the best in the world when he won Katowice 2023? Yes he was, but that doesn’t mean he would have beaten other players that he didn’t face, that we can’t know. He was the best player because that day the biggest tournament was Katowice and he won it. So if your point is that in order to be the best in the world, you need to be able to beat every other competitor on the planet on the exact same day, I am sorry but it’s not going to happen.
Indeed, most tournaments end up with a bracket, so you will inevitably avoid other players.
So the real question is: is Code S still the tournament with the highest level of play overall? The answer is yes (obviously): super duper low ping that allows the finest of play, rest days so players are playing in their best shape, time for preparation so even underdogs are difficult to beat, etc.
But if you want a tournament that guarantees the player winning it is capable of beating any pro player on the planet that day, there is none that exists, not even the international ones. Like Oliveira won, but maybe if they played 2 hours later Maru would have won.
We have a saying in French for such arguments: « avec des si on mettrait Paris dans une bouteille » -> with if, we would put Paris in a bottle.
On May 12 2024 10:25 Pandain wrote: None of that is true anymore. Yes, Koreans writ large are way better than foreigners writ large. But it's undisputed that the absolute best foreigners are killers. Koreans have not won a single premier international offline event since 2022 DH Atlanta. Even right now, if you asked me for the top five players in the world, foreigners are going to be three of them (Serral, Clem, Maxpax). You honestly could even argue that Serral/Clem/Maxpax are each stronger than Maru overall (Maxpax is the more questionable one but it's more than plausible), meaning that even when Maru won the last GSL he could still only be the fourth best player in the world.
When Maru (or Solar, or whoever) wins a GSL now, it doesn't mean much beyond that they won a very difficult tournament. And maybe it means they are the best Korean at that point. That's awesome. But it no longer means they are the best in the world.
When you want to see the absolute highest level of play, it's going to be at a premier international event. And if you want to know who is really the absolute best player in the world, it's also going to be at a premier international event. GSL no longer is that tournament.
This is the "dismissive" attitude that I feel from certain EU fans, or some known caster. So just because EU won 4 offline international tournament in a row (2 ESL, Gamers8 and IEM), now they are automatically better than KR at the top? So when KR won 2 offline ESL in 2022 and none of EU making it to top4 in IEM last year, did we shit talk the EU top for that too? It would only be true if EU players come in and just dominate KR, but aside Serral I havent seen other top EU player done that consistently enough.
There are so many things that went into a tournament result, thats why its hard to just pick a certain period or tournament and call it how things will be from now on. By your definition, Clem was the best player in the world after winning Atlanta until he lost to Serral in IEM? And hes still the best Terran in the world because no other Terran has won international event since then?
And imho, the Seasonal offline events are to promote the most amount of games, not the best quality of games. Winning 2 bo3 in the Winner Bracket (one possibly against a low seed player) guarantee the spot in the playoff, while the rest have to play from the Knockout Bracket with zero seeding is not the best format. I have always believe that the best format for tournaments with stacked roster is round-robin, or true Swiss-format, group stage to seed into the playoff. You have to play against everybody once, and then beat them in the playoff again to claim that you are the best players.
It's eight premier international tournaments in a row, including both offline and online. I feel like I don't even need to say more on that. You need to do some serious mind-games to try to argue that that's not important in some kind of very important sense.
And I would not even say EU is better than KR "at the top." That's too vague because, like you said, a majority of top 10 players have always been KR. Rather, when we talk about who are the people actually winning tournaments where everyone is participating, it's just undeniable that those players are foreigners. For a long time now.
@Poopi, I'm pretty skeptical most people would have even said that Solar was the best korean at that point, let alone player in the world. I wouldn't on either. But you just made my point. Whatever we make of Solar, you would need to see how he was competing against the best foreigners, such as results in WTL. Him winning GSL by itself is no longer that ergo proof that he was the best.
Actually it was the proof? It’s not WTL proves that Solar is the best in the world, it’s that in WTL we saw his potential (like we saw the potential for ByuN in the various online tournaments before his GSL + BlizzCon win) in every match-up, so he had the potential to finally win a Code S title, and he managed to do so. WTL results by themselves don’t have much value, it’s just a minor team league that mainly team owners / managers care about. It’s good entertainment but it’s online + mainly bo1 so we are far from the days of proleague where this was a real thing.
If Solar didn’t win his Code S, no one would remember that he did heavy lifting in WTL, because it doesn’t matter much. His code S title matters.
But the point is you then had to point to WTL. Because even if it proved he was the best in Korea, you argued he was better than Serral/Reynor because of WTL. That's my point. If you want to know who is the best in the world you need to look to international tournaments. And if you don't think WTL was actually important, and is only entertainment, than actually we have no reason to think that he was better than Serral/Reynor, and certainly not Clem who he didn't face.
And of course, this is ignoring even the implausible argument that winning 2-0 vs Serral and 1-0 vs Reynor meant he was a stronger player than them. At best you could say he had better ZvZ than Serral which is fair because Serrals ZvZ was comparatively bad for a few years.
But it’s a meaningless point then? Tournaments winners are not who would have beaten every other player in BoX. It’s who lifts the trophy. That’s why you can have bracket luck etc. Was Oliveira the best in the world when he won Katowice 2023? Yes he was, but that doesn’t mean he would have beaten other players that he didn’t face, that we can’t know. He was the best player because that day the biggest tournament was Katowice and he won it. So if your point is that in order to be the best in the world, you need to be able to beat every other competitor on the planet on the exact same day, I am sorry but it’s not going to happen.
Indeed, most tournaments end up with a bracket, so you will inevitably avoid other players.
So the real question is: is Code S still the tournament with the highest level of play overall? The answer is yes (obviously): super duper low ping that allows the finest of play, rest days so players are playing in their best shape, time for preparation so even underdogs are difficult to beat, etc.
But if you want a tournament that guarantees the player winning it is capable of beating any pro player on the planet that day, there is none that exists, not even the international ones. Like Oliveira won, but maybe if they played 2 hours later Maru would have won.
We have a saying in French for such arguments: « avec des si on mettrait Paris dans une bouteille » -> with if, we would put Paris in a bottle.
My point is to be the best in the world they need to have performed the best in a tournament that also had all (or at least most of) the other best players in the world. That's true broadly in GSL but not for the absolute best players, when for the majority of the last 2 years arguably 3/5 or 3/6 of the top 6 players have been non-Korean.
On May 12 2024 06:01 Ronski wrote: The GSL has always been a global tournament in name only. A tournament being held over a long period of time where each match takes place in a studio automatically weeds out majority of the world and only domestic players can reliably participate.
If there was a GSL style tournament but instead held in Europe or America majority of the players would be Europeans or Americans. The amount of Koreans willing to move and live in another continent with an entirely different culture and language they aren't fluent with would prevent most from participating, the same way the GSL keeps foreigners out due to how inconvenient it is to partake.
GSL has always been a tournament for Koreans held in korea with international competition allowed to partake if they are willing to deal with the inconveniences that come with it. While koreans are the best players in the world this made the GSL the hardest tournament to win and with price pool to match it became the most prestigious.
Nowadays we have a few players outside of Korea who would be championship contenders if they were to participate in GSL, namely Serral and Clem. They most likely will never participate in GSL due to the inconvenient nature of the tournament. Dedicating months of your life for a tournament with 1/4th of the price pool of winning ESL Europe doesn't make much sense.
GSL will continue to be a prestigous tournament but only because of the average level of players participating in it. For foreigners it makes no sense to ever participate in GSL as the 1st place hardly covers the plane tickets.
In my eyes winning an ESL International is a greater achievement than winning a GSL now. Simply because the price pool attracts all the best players in the world and the tournament format doesn't require you to restructure your entire life to participate.
Its 100% more global than the region locked playground EU and NA events
On May 12 2024 10:25 Pandain wrote: None of that is true anymore. Yes, Koreans writ large are way better than foreigners writ large. But it's undisputed that the absolute best foreigners are killers. Koreans have not won a single premier international offline event since 2022 DH Atlanta. Even right now, if you asked me for the top five players in the world, foreigners are going to be three of them (Serral, Clem, Maxpax). You honestly could even argue that Serral/Clem/Maxpax are each stronger than Maru overall (Maxpax is the more questionable one but it's more than plausible), meaning that even when Maru won the last GSL he could still only be the fourth best player in the world.
When Maru (or Solar, or whoever) wins a GSL now, it doesn't mean much beyond that they won a very difficult tournament. And maybe it means they are the best Korean at that point. That's awesome. But it no longer means they are the best in the world.
When you want to see the absolute highest level of play, it's going to be at a premier international event. And if you want to know who is really the absolute best player in the world, it's also going to be at a premier international event. GSL no longer is that tournament.
This is the "dismissive" attitude that I feel from certain EU fans, or some known caster. So just because EU won 4 offline international tournament in a row (2 ESL, Gamers8 and IEM), now they are automatically better than KR at the top? So when KR won 2 offline ESL in 2022 and none of EU making it to top4 in IEM last year, did we shit talk the EU top for that too? It would only be true if EU players come in and just dominate KR, but aside Serral I havent seen other top EU player done that consistently enough.
There are so many things that went into a tournament result, thats why its hard to just pick a certain period or tournament and call it how things will be from now on. By your definition, Clem was the best player in the world after winning Atlanta until he lost to Serral in IEM? And hes still the best Terran in the world because no other Terran has won international event since then?
And imho, the Seasonal offline events are to promote the most amount of games, not the best quality of games. Winning 2 bo3 in the Winner Bracket (one possibly against a low seed player) guarantee the spot in the playoff, while the rest have to play from the Knockout Bracket with zero seeding is not the best format. I have always believe that the best format for tournaments with stacked roster is round-robin, or true Swiss-format, group stage to seed into the playoff. You have to play against everybody once, and then beat them in the playoff again to claim that you are the best players.
It's eight premier international tournaments in a row, including both offline and online. I feel like I don't even need to say more on that. You need to do some serious mind-games to try to argue that that's not important in some kind of very important sense.
And I would not even say EU is better than KR "at the top." That's too vague because, like you said, a majority of top 10 players have always been KR. Rather, when we talk about who are the people actually winning tournaments where everyone is participating, it's just undeniable that those players are foreigners. For a long time now.
@Poopi, I'm pretty skeptical most people would have even said that Solar was the best korean at that point, let alone player in the world. I wouldn't on either. But you just made my point. Whatever we make of Solar, you would need to see how he was competing against the best foreigners, such as results in WTL. Him winning GSL by itself is no longer that ergo proof that he was the best.
I do not defend what already happen, aka KR players havent won an international tournament for a while, but I do not agree with the assessment that change the view on the power between EU vs KR for the next international event that they play.
Outside of Serral who should be the No.1 at this point, I do not look at Clem, Reynor and Oliveira (people who won the previous international tournaments) as more favorite than the KR. In fact, after Serral, I would take Maru ahead of Clem in term of the chance of winning. Clem would have the same chance with Dark and herO , and then Reynor is in the mix with the rest of them like Solar Byun Classic Cure. Oliveira is not even in top 10 of my list despite him still is the defending world champion.
On May 12 2024 10:25 Pandain wrote: None of that is true anymore. Yes, Koreans writ large are way better than foreigners writ large. But it's undisputed that the absolute best foreigners are killers. Koreans have not won a single premier international offline event since 2022 DH Atlanta. Even right now, if you asked me for the top five players in the world, foreigners are going to be three of them (Serral, Clem, Maxpax). You honestly could even argue that Serral/Clem/Maxpax are each stronger than Maru overall (Maxpax is the more questionable one but it's more than plausible), meaning that even when Maru won the last GSL he could still only be the fourth best player in the world.
When Maru (or Solar, or whoever) wins a GSL now, it doesn't mean much beyond that they won a very difficult tournament. And maybe it means they are the best Korean at that point. That's awesome. But it no longer means they are the best in the world.
When you want to see the absolute highest level of play, it's going to be at a premier international event. And if you want to know who is really the absolute best player in the world, it's also going to be at a premier international event. GSL no longer is that tournament.
This is the "dismissive" attitude that I feel from certain EU fans, or some known caster. So just because EU won 4 offline international tournament in a row (2 ESL, Gamers8 and IEM), now they are automatically better than KR at the top? So when KR won 2 offline ESL in 2022 and none of EU making it to top4 in IEM last year, did we shit talk the EU top for that too? It would only be true if EU players come in and just dominate KR, but aside Serral I havent seen other top EU player done that consistently enough.
There are so many things that went into a tournament result, thats why its hard to just pick a certain period or tournament and call it how things will be from now on. By your definition, Clem was the best player in the world after winning Atlanta until he lost to Serral in IEM? And hes still the best Terran in the world because no other Terran has won international event since then?
And imho, the Seasonal offline events are to promote the most amount of games, not the best quality of games. Winning 2 bo3 in the Winner Bracket (one possibly against a low seed player) guarantee the spot in the playoff, while the rest have to play from the Knockout Bracket with zero seeding is not the best format. I have always believe that the best format for tournaments with stacked roster is round-robin, or true Swiss-format, group stage to seed into the playoff. You have to play against everybody once, and then beat them in the playoff again to claim that you are the best players.
It's eight premier international tournaments in a row, including both offline and online. I feel like I don't even need to say more on that. You need to do some serious mind-games to try to argue that that's not important in some kind of very important sense.
And I would not even say EU is better than KR "at the top." That's too vague because, like you said, a majority of top 10 players have always been KR. Rather, when we talk about who are the people actually winning tournaments where everyone is participating, it's just undeniable that those players are foreigners. For a long time now.
@Poopi, I'm pretty skeptical most people would have even said that Solar was the best korean at that point, let alone player in the world. I wouldn't on either. But you just made my point. Whatever we make of Solar, you would need to see how he was competing against the best foreigners, such as results in WTL. Him winning GSL by itself is no longer that ergo proof that he was the best.
Actually it was the proof? It’s not WTL proves that Solar is the best in the world, it’s that in WTL we saw his potential (like we saw the potential for ByuN in the various online tournaments before his GSL + BlizzCon win) in every match-up, so he had the potential to finally win a Code S title, and he managed to do so. WTL results by themselves don’t have much value, it’s just a minor team league that mainly team owners / managers care about. It’s good entertainment but it’s online + mainly bo1 so we are far from the days of proleague where this was a real thing.
If Solar didn’t win his Code S, no one would remember that he did heavy lifting in WTL, because it doesn’t matter much. His code S title matters.
But the point is you then had to point to WTL. Because even if it proved he was the best in Korea, you argued he was better than Serral/Reynor because of WTL. That's my point. If you want to know who is the best in the world you need to look to international tournaments. And if you don't think WTL was actually important, and is only entertainment, than actually we have no reason to think that he was better than Serral/Reynor, and certainly not Clem who he didn't face.
And of course, this is ignoring even the implausible argument that winning 2-0 vs Serral and 1-0 vs Reynor meant he was a stronger player than them. At best you could say he had better ZvZ than Serral which is fair because Serrals ZvZ was comparatively bad for a few years.
But it’s a meaningless point then? Tournaments winners are not who would have beaten every other player in BoX. It’s who lifts the trophy. That’s why you can have bracket luck etc. Was Oliveira the best in the world when he won Katowice 2023? Yes he was, but that doesn’t mean he would have beaten other players that he didn’t face, that we can’t know. He was the best player because that day the biggest tournament was Katowice and he won it. So if your point is that in order to be the best in the world, you need to be able to beat every other competitor on the planet on the exact same day, I am sorry but it’s not going to happen.
Indeed, most tournaments end up with a bracket, so you will inevitably avoid other players.
So the real question is: is Code S still the tournament with the highest level of play overall? The answer is yes (obviously): super duper low ping that allows the finest of play, rest days so players are playing in their best shape, time for preparation so even underdogs are difficult to beat, etc.
But if you want a tournament that guarantees the player winning it is capable of beating any pro player on the planet that day, there is none that exists, not even the international ones. Like Oliveira won, but maybe if they played 2 hours later Maru would have won.
We have a saying in French for such arguments: « avec des si on mettrait Paris dans une bouteille » -> with if, we would put Paris in a bottle.
My point is to be the best in the world they need to have performed the best in a tournament that also had all (or at least most of) the other best players in the world. That's true broadly in GSL but not for the absolute best players, when for the majority of the last 2 years arguably 3/5 or 3/6 of the top 6 players have been non-Korean.
Okay, I get your point, let's agree to disagree then. We are both biased in opposite directions.
If there was a GSL style tournament but instead held in Europe or America majority of the players would be Europeans or Americans. The amount of Koreans willing to move and live in another continent with an entirely different culture and language they aren't fluent with would prevent most from participating, the same way the GSL keeps foreigners out due to how inconvenient it is to partake.
Honestly, what's the point of this article at this exact moment? Given the quite likely scenario that Maru will win again this season, wouldn't it have been much more appropriate to at least wait until this GSL is over?
Maru is amazing and should be celebrated. But this seems like a really odd time to do it. Unless the purpose is to have the same 10 posters arguing about Serral vs Maru in LR threads where neither of them are playing.
On May 12 2024 23:58 Glorfindelio wrote: Honestly, what's the point of this article at this exact moment? Given the quite likely scenario that Maru will win again this season, wouldn't it have been much more appropriate to at least wait until this GSL is over?
Maru is amazing and should be celebrated. But this seems like a really odd time to do it. Unless the purpose is to have the same 10 posters arguing about Serral vs Maru in LR threads where neither of them are playing.
I think that the dynamic between Maru and Code S is a fascinating conundrum. Maru's results and the perception of Code S are directly tied to one another, but it's difficult to quantify how much one influences the other. This piece is more of a musing on the topic than anything else. And, since it It isn't an official TL.net article, it doesn't need to abide by some restrictions you'd get if it were one.
Re: the people who argue about Maru/Serral.
They are going to do it whether or not this this thread exists. You can't escape it.
On May 12 2024 22:48 Haighstrom wrote: I can't really understand the purpose of this post, and the only consequence I can see of it is continuing to exacerbate division in the community.
GSL is great. Maru is great. Serral is great. Starcraft is great. Please stop these inflammatory posts.
That’s all cool and all, but Maru is greater Peace and love though!
On May 12 2024 10:25 Pandain wrote: Thank you for writing this thoughtful article. It's made me reflect even more on a topic that's bugged me for like a year now, which is why exactly Maru's many GSL wins just don't quite seem as impactful as he continues to rack them up.
I now realize the answer is pretty much the opposite of a lot of what you write above. It's not that his constant wins just makes us numb to that extent, but rather GSL Code S has simply put not been the most "prestigious" or "gold standard" tournament for a while, certainly not with the prize pool deflation and honestly not since ~2019.
It used to be any player who won Code S was the best player in the world. For the most part, people would agree that at least at that point and time, you were the undisputed best player in the world. That in itself was a momentous achievement, and that's what earned you an immortal place in SC2 history.
And as a fan, if you wanted to be sure to see the highest level of play possible, you would turn into GSL Code S. And you could be pretty certain there was no tournament that was going to have a higher level of play than what you were watching at that time.
None of that is true anymore. Yes, Koreans writ large are way better than foreigners writ large. But it's undisputed that the absolute best foreigners are killers. Koreans have not won a single premier international offline event since 2022 DH Atlanta. Even right now, if you asked me for the top five players in the world, foreigners are going to be three of them (Serral, Clem, Maxpax). You honestly could even argue that Serral/Clem/Maxpax are each stronger than Maru overall (Maxpax is the more questionable one but it's more than plausible), meaning that even when Maru won the last GSL he could still only be the fourth best player in the world.
When Maru (or Solar, or whoever) wins a GSL now, it doesn't mean much beyond that they won a very difficult tournament. And maybe it means they are the best Korean at that point. That's awesome. But it no longer means they are the best in the world.
When you want to see the absolute highest level of play, it's going to be at a premier international event. And if you want to know who is really the absolute best player in the world, it's also going to be at a premier international event. GSL no longer is that tournament.
The foreigner bias has always been around since day 1. Still is and your post is proof of it.
The only top 5 player in the world in your list is Serral.
Maxpax? Really? If I said some Korean who won only online tourney and never went to an offline event was the best and didn't win any premier tournament / gsl etc you'd say I'm biased, but here you are listing maxpax as top 3.
Clem is fantastic player, but he's not overall better than than many korean T's, he's top 10 sure but not top 5.
Either way Koreans even in their weakened state still have most of the top players.
On May 12 2024 10:25 Pandain wrote: None of that is true anymore. Yes, Koreans writ large are way better than foreigners writ large. But it's undisputed that the absolute best foreigners are killers. Koreans have not won a single premier international offline event since 2022 DH Atlanta. Even right now, if you asked me for the top five players in the world, foreigners are going to be three of them (Serral, Clem, Maxpax). You honestly could even argue that Serral/Clem/Maxpax are each stronger than Maru overall (Maxpax is the more questionable one but it's more than plausible), meaning that even when Maru won the last GSL he could still only be the fourth best player in the world.
When Maru (or Solar, or whoever) wins a GSL now, it doesn't mean much beyond that they won a very difficult tournament. And maybe it means they are the best Korean at that point. That's awesome. But it no longer means they are the best in the world.
When you want to see the absolute highest level of play, it's going to be at a premier international event. And if you want to know who is really the absolute best player in the world, it's also going to be at a premier international event. GSL no longer is that tournament.
This is the "dismissive" attitude that I feel from certain EU fans, or some known caster. So just because EU won 4 offline international tournament in a row (2 ESL, Gamers8 and IEM), now they are automatically better than KR at the top? So when KR won 2 offline ESL in 2022 and none of EU making it to top4 in IEM last year, did we shit talk the EU top for that too? It would only be true if EU players come in and just dominate KR, but aside Serral I havent seen other top EU player done that consistently enough.
There are so many things that went into a tournament result, thats why its hard to just pick a certain period or tournament and call it how things will be from now on. By your definition, Clem was the best player in the world after winning Atlanta until he lost to Serral in IEM? And hes still the best Terran in the world because no other Terran has won international event since then?
And imho, the Seasonal offline events are to promote the most amount of games, not the best quality of games. Winning 2 bo3 in the Winner Bracket (one possibly against a low seed player) guarantee the spot in the playoff, while the rest have to play from the Knockout Bracket with zero seeding is not the best format. I have always believe that the best format for tournaments with stacked roster is round-robin, or true Swiss-format, group stage to seed into the playoff. You have to play against everybody once, and then beat them in the playoff again to claim that you are the best players.
It's eight premier international tournaments in a row, including both offline and online. I feel like I don't even need to say more on that. You need to do some serious mind-games to try to argue that that's not important in some kind of very important sense.
And I would not even say EU is better than KR "at the top." That's too vague because, like you said, a majority of top 10 players have always been KR. Rather, when we talk about who are the people actually winning tournaments where everyone is participating, it's just undeniable that those players are foreigners. For a long time now.
@Poopi, I'm pretty skeptical most people would have even said that Solar was the best korean at that point, let alone player in the world. I wouldn't on either. But you just made my point. Whatever we make of Solar, you would need to see how he was competing against the best foreigners, such as results in WTL. Him winning GSL by itself is no longer that ergo proof that he was the best.
Actually it was the proof? It’s not WTL proves that Solar is the best in the world, it’s that in WTL we saw his potential (like we saw the potential for ByuN in the various online tournaments before his GSL + BlizzCon win) in every match-up, so he had the potential to finally win a Code S title, and he managed to do so. WTL results by themselves don’t have much value, it’s just a minor team league that mainly team owners / managers care about. It’s good entertainment but it’s online + mainly bo1 so we are far from the days of proleague where this was a real thing.
If Solar didn’t win his Code S, no one would remember that he did heavy lifting in WTL, because it doesn’t matter much. His code S title matters.
But the point is you then had to point to WTL. Because even if it proved he was the best in Korea, you argued he was better than Serral/Reynor because of WTL. That's my point. If you want to know who is the best in the world you need to look to international tournaments. And if you don't think WTL was actually important, and is only entertainment, than actually we have no reason to think that he was better than Serral/Reynor, and certainly not Clem who he didn't face.
And of course, this is ignoring even the implausible argument that winning 2-0 vs Serral and 1-0 vs Reynor meant he was a stronger player than them. At best you could say he had better ZvZ than Serral which is fair because Serrals ZvZ was comparatively bad for a few years.
But it’s a meaningless point then? Tournaments winners are not who would have beaten every other player in BoX. It’s who lifts the trophy. That’s why you can have bracket luck etc. Was Oliveira the best in the world when he won Katowice 2023? Yes he was, but that doesn’t mean he would have beaten other players that he didn’t face, that we can’t know. He was the best player because that day the biggest tournament was Katowice and he won it. So if your point is that in order to be the best in the world, you need to be able to beat every other competitor on the planet on the exact same day, I am sorry but it’s not going to happen.
Indeed, most tournaments end up with a bracket, so you will inevitably avoid other players.
So the real question is: is Code S still the tournament with the highest level of play overall? The answer is yes (obviously): super duper low ping that allows the finest of play, rest days so players are playing in their best shape, time for preparation so even underdogs are difficult to beat, etc.
But if you want a tournament that guarantees the player winning it is capable of beating any pro player on the planet that day, there is none that exists, not even the international ones. Like Oliveira won, but maybe if they played 2 hours later Maru would have won.
We have a saying in French for such arguments: « avec des si on mettrait Paris dans une bouteille » -> with if, we would put Paris in a bottle.
My point is to be the best in the world they need to have performed the best in a tournament that also had all (or at least most of) the other best players in the world. That's true broadly in GSL but not for the absolute best players, when for the majority of the last 2 years arguably 3/5 or 3/6 of the top 6 players have been non-Korean.
Korea still has the majority of the best players, funny how you don't use your logic to apply to foreigners. They still haven't won any GSL.
Reynor just lost 0-4 in his group again. And Reynor at his best is the best foreigner in my eyes after Serral.
On May 12 2024 10:25 Pandain wrote: None of that is true anymore. Yes, Koreans writ large are way better than foreigners writ large. But it's undisputed that the absolute best foreigners are killers. Koreans have not won a single premier international offline event since 2022 DH Atlanta. Even right now, if you asked me for the top five players in the world, foreigners are going to be three of them (Serral, Clem, Maxpax). You honestly could even argue that Serral/Clem/Maxpax are each stronger than Maru overall (Maxpax is the more questionable one but it's more than plausible), meaning that even when Maru won the last GSL he could still only be the fourth best player in the world.
When Maru (or Solar, or whoever) wins a GSL now, it doesn't mean much beyond that they won a very difficult tournament. And maybe it means they are the best Korean at that point. That's awesome. But it no longer means they are the best in the world.
When you want to see the absolute highest level of play, it's going to be at a premier international event. And if you want to know who is really the absolute best player in the world, it's also going to be at a premier international event. GSL no longer is that tournament.
This is the "dismissive" attitude that I feel from certain EU fans, or some known caster. So just because EU won 4 offline international tournament in a row (2 ESL, Gamers8 and IEM), now they are automatically better than KR at the top? So when KR won 2 offline ESL in 2022 and none of EU making it to top4 in IEM last year, did we shit talk the EU top for that too? It would only be true if EU players come in and just dominate KR, but aside Serral I havent seen other top EU player done that consistently enough.
There are so many things that went into a tournament result, thats why its hard to just pick a certain period or tournament and call it how things will be from now on. By your definition, Clem was the best player in the world after winning Atlanta until he lost to Serral in IEM? And hes still the best Terran in the world because no other Terran has won international event since then?
And imho, the Seasonal offline events are to promote the most amount of games, not the best quality of games. Winning 2 bo3 in the Winner Bracket (one possibly against a low seed player) guarantee the spot in the playoff, while the rest have to play from the Knockout Bracket with zero seeding is not the best format. I have always believe that the best format for tournaments with stacked roster is round-robin, or true Swiss-format, group stage to seed into the playoff. You have to play against everybody once, and then beat them in the playoff again to claim that you are the best players.
It's eight premier international tournaments in a row, including both offline and online. I feel like I don't even need to say more on that. You need to do some serious mind-games to try to argue that that's not important in some kind of very important sense.
And I would not even say EU is better than KR "at the top." That's too vague because, like you said, a majority of top 10 players have always been KR. Rather, when we talk about who are the people actually winning tournaments where everyone is participating, it's just undeniable that those players are foreigners. For a long time now.
@Poopi, I'm pretty skeptical most people would have even said that Solar was the best korean at that point, let alone player in the world. I wouldn't on either. But you just made my point. Whatever we make of Solar, you would need to see how he was competing against the best foreigners, such as results in WTL. Him winning GSL by itself is no longer that ergo proof that he was the best.
Actually it was the proof? It’s not WTL proves that Solar is the best in the world, it’s that in WTL we saw his potential (like we saw the potential for ByuN in the various online tournaments before his GSL + BlizzCon win) in every match-up, so he had the potential to finally win a Code S title, and he managed to do so. WTL results by themselves don’t have much value, it’s just a minor team league that mainly team owners / managers care about. It’s good entertainment but it’s online + mainly bo1 so we are far from the days of proleague where this was a real thing.
If Solar didn’t win his Code S, no one would remember that he did heavy lifting in WTL, because it doesn’t matter much. His code S title matters.
But the point is you then had to point to WTL. Because even if it proved he was the best in Korea, you argued he was better than Serral/Reynor because of WTL. That's my point. If you want to know who is the best in the world you need to look to international tournaments. And if you don't think WTL was actually important, and is only entertainment, than actually we have no reason to think that he was better than Serral/Reynor, and certainly not Clem who he didn't face.
And of course, this is ignoring even the implausible argument that winning 2-0 vs Serral and 1-0 vs Reynor meant he was a stronger player than them. At best you could say he had better ZvZ than Serral which is fair because Serrals ZvZ was comparatively bad for a few years.
But it’s a meaningless point then? Tournaments winners are not who would have beaten every other player in BoX. It’s who lifts the trophy. That’s why you can have bracket luck etc. Was Oliveira the best in the world when he won Katowice 2023? Yes he was, but that doesn’t mean he would have beaten other players that he didn’t face, that we can’t know. He was the best player because that day the biggest tournament was Katowice and he won it. So if your point is that in order to be the best in the world, you need to be able to beat every other competitor on the planet on the exact same day, I am sorry but it’s not going to happen.
Indeed, most tournaments end up with a bracket, so you will inevitably avoid other players.
So the real question is: is Code S still the tournament with the highest level of play overall? The answer is yes (obviously): super duper low ping that allows the finest of play, rest days so players are playing in their best shape, time for preparation so even underdogs are difficult to beat, etc.
But if you want a tournament that guarantees the player winning it is capable of beating any pro player on the planet that day, there is none that exists, not even the international ones. Like Oliveira won, but maybe if they played 2 hours later Maru would have won.
We have a saying in French for such arguments: « avec des si on mettrait Paris dans une bouteille » -> with if, we would put Paris in a bottle.
My point is to be the best in the world they need to have performed the best in a tournament that also had all (or at least most of) the other best players in the world. That's true broadly in GSL but not for the absolute best players, when for the majority of the last 2 years arguably 3/5 or 3/6 of the top 6 players have been non-Korean.
Korea still has the majority of the best players, funny how you don't use your logic to apply to foreigners. They still haven't won any GSL.
Reynor just lost 0-4 in his group again. And Reynor at his best is the best foreigner in my eyes after Serral.
You're being a prisoner of the moment. Reynor isn't the first big name player to lose in the opening round and he won't be the last.
On May 12 2024 10:25 Pandain wrote: Thank you for writing this thoughtful article. It's made me reflect even more on a topic that's bugged me for like a year now, which is why exactly Maru's many GSL wins just don't quite seem as impactful as he continues to rack them up.
I now realize the answer is pretty much the opposite of a lot of what you write above. It's not that his constant wins just makes us numb to that extent, but rather GSL Code S has simply put not been the most "prestigious" or "gold standard" tournament for a while, certainly not with the prize pool deflation and honestly not since ~2019.
It used to be any player who won Code S was the best player in the world. For the most part, people would agree that at least at that point and time, you were the undisputed best player in the world. That in itself was a momentous achievement, and that's what earned you an immortal place in SC2 history.
And as a fan, if you wanted to be sure to see the highest level of play possible, you would turn into GSL Code S. And you could be pretty certain there was no tournament that was going to have a higher level of play than what you were watching at that time.
None of that is true anymore. Yes, Koreans writ large are way better than foreigners writ large. But it's undisputed that the absolute best foreigners are killers. Koreans have not won a single premier international offline event since 2022 DH Atlanta. Even right now, if you asked me for the top five players in the world, foreigners are going to be three of them (Serral, Clem, Maxpax). You honestly could even argue that Serral/Clem/Maxpax are each stronger than Maru overall (Maxpax is the more questionable one but it's more than plausible), meaning that even when Maru won the last GSL he could still only be the fourth best player in the world.
When Maru (or Solar, or whoever) wins a GSL now, it doesn't mean much beyond that they won a very difficult tournament. And maybe it means they are the best Korean at that point. That's awesome. But it no longer means they are the best in the world.
When you want to see the absolute highest level of play, it's going to be at a premier international event. And if you want to know who is really the absolute best player in the world, it's also going to be at a premier international event. GSL no longer is that tournament.
The foreigner bias has always been around since day 1. Still is and your post is proof of it.
The only top 5 player in the world in your list is Serral.
Maxpax? Really? If I said some Korean who won only online tourney and never went to an offline event was the best and didn't win any premier tournament / gsl etc you'd say I'm biased, but here you are listing maxpax as top 3.
Clem is fantastic player, but he's not overall better than than many korean T's, he's top 10 sure but not top 5.
Either way Koreans even in their weakened state still have most of the top players.
Yeah, putting MaxPax as one of the best players in the world is simply ridiculous. That’s like saying a random guy from a random country that doesn’t have internet is one of the best StarCraft 2 players because theoretically / genetically he might have the best potential. Guess what, if his environment doesn’t allow him to compete and he can’t reach his potential, it’s just that, potential. Back to MaxPax, as long as he can’t play offline due to anxiety (because let’s be real, given the informations we have, that’s the best educated guess we have), his perceived level by the Reddit community / discord / twitch etc. is meaningless. The recency bias is also blatant there, since MaxPax reached the finals of the EU tournament he is [i]de facto[i] top 8 world, even taking online into account?
Using Reynor as proxy who played in both GSL and the EU tournament, top 6 in the EU tournament is equivalent at best to 0-4 in ro16 of GSL. Then we have Spirit at top 3, which is a good tell of the level of the scene in Europe currently. Using his WTL results as proxy compared to other KR players, despite «easy » first 3 matches, he is at rank #21 with 2w-4l record (World Team League/2024/Summer/Statistics).
Top 10 in WTL is 5 KR players, 3 CN players and Reynor + MaxPax. EU is super weak as a whole atm and MaxPax results are not that of a top 8 player in the world, nor is his gameplay.
edit: gameplay wise currently without taking Serral into account because we didn't see him much, my current top 8 would be (in no particular order), Clem, Maru, HerO, Cure, soO, GuMiho, Solar and ByuN. MaxPax would be in top 12 or maybe top 10.
Cure is pretty ballsy given his results, but I think he will surprise us in his GSL group. Overall "gameplay" is pretty duper subjective though, because sometimes you can "see" or "feel" that a player is just missing one or two tweak in his gameplay to reach "perfection" (like Oliveira in 2022/2023), but that doesn't mean that player will be able to correct those things without losing the other things that made him great at this particular moment.
MaxPax is a decent candidate for top 8 gameplay, but he is not an "obvious" pick like Clem atm, Maru or herO
Question about the regional lock: If Maru officially lives in the EU (Sweden/ England/ Germany) for a year, can he play in the ESL SC2 Masters tournaments in that year?
On May 12 2024 04:19 kennytennyson2 wrote: My simple issue with Maru is that he lacks a World Championship, whether that be Blizzcon or IEM Katowice (when it was chosen to be the World Championships)
Your problem with Maru is he lacks a world championship?
Maru has came second place in the world championships or close it it several times, and he has won countless code S and been competitive in that tournament for almost if not a decade.
Serral has won the world championship and 0 code S has not even competed in one.
You cannot compare the two Maru is in a league of his own
On May 12 2024 04:19 kennytennyson2 wrote: My simple issue with Maru is that he lacks a World Championship, whether that be Blizzcon or IEM Katowice (when it was chosen to be the World Championships)
You cannot compare the two Maru is in a league of his own
True, Marus lack of WCs is so heavy he can't fill it up with his regional success.
On May 12 2024 04:19 kennytennyson2 wrote: My simple issue with Maru is that he lacks a World Championship, whether that be Blizzcon or IEM Katowice (when it was chosen to be the World Championships)
Your problem with Maru is he lacks a world championship?
Maru has came second place in the world championships or close it it several times, and he has won countless code S and been competitive in that tournament for almost if not a decade.
Serral has won the world championship and 0 code S has not even competed in one.
You cannot compare the two Maru is in a league of his own
Answer to the quote above Maru is in a league of his own in terms of code S / longevity, but Serral is in the GOAT conversation now that he has 3 World Championships and has been the most feared foreign player since 2018 (or one of the most feared).
The problem is exactly the point of the topic: Serral won't ever participate in code S (and code S is becoming less and less prestigious / financially interesting, so only the true warriors like Reynor or the usual foreigners + some newcomers commit to participate in it, huge props to him / them for trying it out). On the other hand, Maru has no reason NOT to participate in code S, but his problem is that he is too good so he is the favorite every time he enters the tournament. At this point, winning code S is expected and anything but 1st place is a disappointment, since he is on paper the best KR player by far nowadays.
Personal opinion as a starcraft 2 fan / follower of the scene since WoL:
I personally think Maru should keep competing in code S for the money (his legacy in the tournament is already done), and try to win the tournament in Saudi Arabia not for the "WC" prestige, but rather just because it's a lot of money.
On the other hand, someone like Reynor needs to win code S for his legacy, so it's useful for him to try to win it. As for the money, lamborghini ain't cheap so he should keep winning the big $ tournaments as well.
For Serral though, his legacy is done too like Maru, so he should just farm money in the big tournaments he is allowed to enter I guess.
Foreigners who should try Code S would be Clem and HeroMarine, Clem because it would be useful for him on the international stage, and HeroMarine because he has a real shot at winning it given his intellect at figuring other players out. His mechanics ain't as good as Clem, but they are good enough to beat any player in the world if his plan is thought out enough.
On May 12 2024 04:19 kennytennyson2 wrote: My simple issue with Maru is that he lacks a World Championship, whether that be Blizzcon or IEM Katowice (when it was chosen to be the World Championships)
Your problem with Maru is he lacks a world championship?
Maru has came second place in the world championships or close it it several times, and he has won countless code S and been competitive in that tournament for almost if not a decade.
Serral has won the world championship and 0 code S has not even competed in one.
You cannot compare the two Maru is in a league of his own
Answer to the quote above Maru is in a league of his own in terms of code S / longevity, but Serral is in the GOAT conversation now that he has 3 World Championships and has been the most feared foreign player since 2018 (or one of the most feared).
The problem is exactly the point of the topic: Serral won't ever participate in code S (and code S is becoming less and less prestigious / financially interesting, so only the true warriors like Reynor or the usual foreigners + some newcomers commit to participate in it, huge props to him / them for trying it out). On the other hand, Maru has no reason NOT to participate in code S, but his problem is that he is too good so he is the favorite every time he enters the tournament. At this point, winning code S is expected and anything but 1st place is a disappointment, since he is on paper the best KR player by far nowadays.
Personal opinion as a starcraft 2 fan / follower of the scene since WoL:
I personally think Maru should keep competing in code S for the money (his legacy in the tournament is already done), and try to win the tournament in Saudi Arabia not for the "WC" prestige, but rather just because it's a lot of money.
On the other hand, someone like Reynor needs to win code S for his legacy, so it's useful for him to try to win it. As for the money, lamborghini ain't cheap so he should keep winning the big $ tournaments as well.
For Serral though, his legacy is done too like Maru, so he should just farm money in the big tournaments he is allowed to enter I guess.
Foreigners who should try Code S would be Clem and HeroMarine, Clem because it would be useful for him on the international stage, and HeroMarine because he has a real shot at winning it given his intellect at figuring other players out. His mechanics ain't as good as Clem, but they are good enough to beat any player in the world if his plan is thought out enough.
This is one of the most absurd things i have ever read. Rough....
On May 12 2024 04:19 kennytennyson2 wrote: My simple issue with Maru is that he lacks a World Championship, whether that be Blizzcon or IEM Katowice (when it was chosen to be the World Championships)
Your problem with Maru is he lacks a world championship?
Maru has came second place in the world championships or close it it several times, and he has won countless code S and been competitive in that tournament for almost if not a decade.
Serral has won the world championship and 0 code S has not even competed in one.
You cannot compare the two Maru is in a league of his own
Answer to the quote above Maru is in a league of his own in terms of code S / longevity, but Serral is in the GOAT conversation now that he has 3 World Championships and has been the most feared foreign player since 2018 (or one of the most feared).
The problem is exactly the point of the topic: Serral won't ever participate in code S (and code S is becoming less and less prestigious / financially interesting, so only the true warriors like Reynor or the usual foreigners + some newcomers commit to participate in it, huge props to him / them for trying it out). On the other hand, Maru has no reason NOT to participate in code S, but his problem is that he is too good so he is the favorite every time he enters the tournament. At this point, winning code S is expected and anything but 1st place is a disappointment, since he is on paper the best KR player by far nowadays.
Personal opinion as a starcraft 2 fan / follower of the scene since WoL:
I personally think Maru should keep competing in code S for the money (his legacy in the tournament is already done), and try to win the tournament in Saudi Arabia not for the "WC" prestige, but rather just because it's a lot of money.
On the other hand, someone like Reynor needs to win code S for his legacy, so it's useful for him to try to win it. As for the money, lamborghini ain't cheap so he should keep winning the big $ tournaments as well.
For Serral though, his legacy is done too like Maru, so he should just farm money in the big tournaments he is allowed to enter I guess.
Foreigners who should try Code S would be Clem and HeroMarine, Clem because it would be useful for him on the international stage, and HeroMarine because he has a real shot at winning it given his intellect at figuring other players out. His mechanics ain't as good as Clem, but they are good enough to beat any player in the world if his plan is thought out enough.
This is one of the most absurd things i have ever read. Rough....
Which part?
Edit: unless StarCraft 2 lives long enough competitively, this GOAT list should be the final written one with good enough quality and research put into it to be considered « canon » like stuchiu’s list. So to all the Serral fans out there, sorry but the game is lost, people in 50 years that might read about StarCraft 2 and find this forum will conclude that the GOAT of this game was Maru.
We can thank Mizenhauer for writing history. The players made history, but the historians write History.
On May 12 2024 04:19 kennytennyson2 wrote: My simple issue with Maru is that he lacks a World Championship, whether that be Blizzcon or IEM Katowice (when it was chosen to be the World Championships)
Your problem with Maru is he lacks a world championship?
Maru has came second place in the world championships or close it it several times, and he has won countless code S and been competitive in that tournament for almost if not a decade.
Serral has won the world championship and 0 code S has not even competed in one.
You cannot compare the two Maru is in a league of his own
Answer to the quote above Maru is in a league of his own in terms of code S / longevity, but Serral is in the GOAT conversation now that he has 3 World Championships and has been the most feared foreign player since 2018 (or one of the most feared).
The problem is exactly the point of the topic: Serral won't ever participate in code S (and code S is becoming less and less prestigious / financially interesting, so only the true warriors like Reynor or the usual foreigners + some newcomers commit to participate in it, huge props to him / them for trying it out). On the other hand, Maru has no reason NOT to participate in code S, but his problem is that he is too good so he is the favorite every time he enters the tournament. At this point, winning code S is expected and anything but 1st place is a disappointment, since he is on paper the best KR player by far nowadays.
Personal opinion as a starcraft 2 fan / follower of the scene since WoL:
I personally think Maru should keep competing in code S for the money (his legacy in the tournament is already done), and try to win the tournament in Saudi Arabia not for the "WC" prestige, but rather just because it's a lot of money.
On the other hand, someone like Reynor needs to win code S for his legacy, so it's useful for him to try to win it. As for the money, lamborghini ain't cheap so he should keep winning the big $ tournaments as well.
For Serral though, his legacy is done too like Maru, so he should just farm money in the big tournaments he is allowed to enter I guess.
Foreigners who should try Code S would be Clem and HeroMarine, Clem because it would be useful for him on the international stage, and HeroMarine because he has a real shot at winning it given his intellect at figuring other players out. His mechanics ain't as good as Clem, but they are good enough to beat any player in the world if his plan is thought out enough.
This is one of the most absurd things i have ever read. Rough....
Which part?
Edit: unless StarCraft 2 lives long enough competitively, this GOAT list should be the final written one with good enough quality and research put into it to be considered « canon » like stuchiu’s list. So to all the Serral fans out there, sorry but the game is lost, people in 50 years that might read about StarCraft 2 and find this forum will conclude that the GOAT of this game was Maru.
We can thank Mizenhauer for writing history. The players made history, but the historians write History.
As a history student myself I can tell you that historians DO NOT write History, they analyze it. And that analysis can always be overturned, even when there are no new facts presented, happened a lot, will always happen. And random people looking into this game in 50 years won't read a collection of long articles to know who the GOAT was, they would just look up the very raw numbers. Which would present Serral on top with already two or three (depending on the count) World Championships and the most money earned (as of yet of course, the EWC might change a lot of that).
Combined with the fact that Serral is the far more widespread known player...Maru doesn't have particularly good odds to survive the test of time.
Part 1) GSL The fact that Korean returnees (from military service) like herO are still dominating says a lot about the former level of competitiveness of KR players - herO wasn't even the best Protoss before! So Maru's 4-peat in GSL '18/'19 back when Inno, Rogue, Dark, SOS, Stats, TY, Classic were all still at their prime, is the most impressive accomplishment of any SC2 player IMO.
Regarding the current scene: 1. Let's remember the most recent GSL showing by Reynor isn't his first attempt, nor his second, but his third - and he has never gone past round 1. 2. Personally I cannot take Maxpax seriously until he shows up offline or at least turns his cam on. What if he's looking at a real time cast during online play? I'm not accusing him of doing so, there's no evidence that this happens, but I don't understand why everyone else has to abide by a very reasonable rule and he doesn't? 3. Clem has moments of brilliance, but hasn't been stable enough e.g. he lost 0-3 to Firefly recently in WTL and it's not like he wasn't trying judging from how he looked on cam. 4. Olivera gave Maru a black eye in Kato '23 which is often used against the latter, but let's not forget he also beat Reynor and herO that day. Let's see if he can find his occasional magic in the upcoming Stars War event on his home court, but otherwise he's usually a RO8 player and not more.
In summary, with the exception of Serral, RoWstill doesn't compare to Korea. If we have an international offline event today without regional quota, is it not reasonable to see 10~11 KR, 4~5 EU, and 1 Asian players making RO16? GSL, even in its current state, is still far more than "just another regional locked event".
Part 2) Maru 1. The international premier events that Maru participated in but didn't win (championship-wise) are basically all held in Europe/US, and home court/time zone is definitely an advantage for local players. Maru seemed more comfortable at WESGs for example, where the time difference is only 1 hr (between China and Korea). 2) Maru is notorious for trying different openings that often put him behind in the early game but then claws his way back. To me this makes watching his games more exciting (and scary). It also says something about his confidence i.e. he can goof and win anyway. 3) Maru has openly talked about his injuries since at least '21, and I can definitely see him slowing down with wear and tear. Injuries can be expected to affect micro-heavy Terrans very significantly and it must be frustrating. For him to still win title after title is testament to his skill - I mean the guy had a large patch on his shoulder during the most recent GSL finals and he dominated anyway. 2 Kato finals in a row is a dissappointment only for Maru - it would be an accomplishment for basically anyone else.
It's not my intention to diss anyone to pump Maru in this thread, but to celebrate the truly legendary SC2 player that he is. I don't mind one bit that he win another GSL, although I hope he perserves his arm well for a global event of the highest prize pool which he certainly deserves to win.
On May 12 2024 04:19 kennytennyson2 wrote: My simple issue with Maru is that he lacks a World Championship, whether that be Blizzcon or IEM Katowice (when it was chosen to be the World Championships)
Your problem with Maru is he lacks a world championship?
Maru has came second place in the world championships or close it it several times, and he has won countless code S and been competitive in that tournament for almost if not a decade.
Serral has won the world championship and 0 code S has not even competed in one.
You cannot compare the two Maru is in a league of his own
Answer to the quote above Maru is in a league of his own in terms of code S / longevity, but Serral is in the GOAT conversation now that he has 3 World Championships and has been the most feared foreign player since 2018 (or one of the most feared).
The problem is exactly the point of the topic: Serral won't ever participate in code S (and code S is becoming less and less prestigious / financially interesting, so only the true warriors like Reynor or the usual foreigners + some newcomers commit to participate in it, huge props to him / them for trying it out). On the other hand, Maru has no reason NOT to participate in code S, but his problem is that he is too good so he is the favorite every time he enters the tournament. At this point, winning code S is expected and anything but 1st place is a disappointment, since he is on paper the best KR player by far nowadays.
Personal opinion as a starcraft 2 fan / follower of the scene since WoL:
I personally think Maru should keep competing in code S for the money (his legacy in the tournament is already done), and try to win the tournament in Saudi Arabia not for the "WC" prestige, but rather just because it's a lot of money.
On the other hand, someone like Reynor needs to win code S for his legacy, so it's useful for him to try to win it. As for the money, lamborghini ain't cheap so he should keep winning the big $ tournaments as well.
For Serral though, his legacy is done too like Maru, so he should just farm money in the big tournaments he is allowed to enter I guess.
Foreigners who should try Code S would be Clem and HeroMarine, Clem because it would be useful for him on the international stage, and HeroMarine because he has a real shot at winning it given his intellect at figuring other players out. His mechanics ain't as good as Clem, but they are good enough to beat any player in the world if his plan is thought out enough.
This is one of the most absurd things i have ever read. Rough....
Which part?
Edit: unless StarCraft 2 lives long enough competitively, this GOAT list should be the final written one with good enough quality and research put into it to be considered « canon » like stuchiu’s list. So to all the Serral fans out there, sorry but the game is lost, people in 50 years that might read about StarCraft 2 and find this forum will conclude that the GOAT of this game was Maru.
We can thank Mizenhauer for writing history. The players made history, but the historians write History.
As a history student myself I can tell you that historians DO NOT write History, they analyze it. And that analysis can always be overturned, even when there are no new facts presented, happened a lot, will always happen. And random people looking into this game in 50 years won't read a collection of long articles to know who the GOAT was, they would just look up the very raw numbers. Which would present Serral on top with already two or three (depending on the count) World Championships and the most money earned (as of yet of course, the EWC might change a lot of that).
Combined with the fact that Serral is the far more widespread known player...Maru doesn't have particularly good odds to survive the test of time.
I guess we will see in 50 years then? If we are both still alive then, and you were right, I will give you something symbolic. If you are a young student in history, there are decent odds that we might still be alive in 50 years so this is a good bet to take. Are you in? If I end up being right I don’t need you to give me anything, Maru being considered GOAT 50 years from now would be a good enough gift.
On May 13 2024 09:00 Balnazza wrote: As a history student myself I can tell you that historians DO NOT write History, they analyze it. And that analysis can always be overturned, even when there are no new facts presented, happened a lot, will always happen. And random people looking into this game in 50 years won't read a collection of long articles to know who the GOAT was, they would just look up the very raw numbers. Which would present Serral on top with already two or three (depending on the count) World Championships and the most money earned (as of yet of course, the EWC might change a lot of that).
Combined with the fact that Serral is the far more widespread known player...Maru doesn't have particularly good odds to survive the test of time.
For the sake of the game I hope it survives for many more years, similar to how BW is apparently still alive and (reasonably) well. So there's always the possibility that new history can be written.
In "The Last Dance", when MJ was asked who's the GOAT, he said "...nobody knows...I never played Wilt Chamberlain...nobody knows". And the present world remains divided between MJ/Kobe/LeBron. 50 years from now, I doubt people will be interested in stats. Miz's piece will be an important reference, but I think people will watch the replays and draw their own individual conclusion, just like today.
Finally, "the fact that Serral is the far more widespread known player" - is clearly just the European fan in you talking.
On May 12 2024 04:19 kennytennyson2 wrote: My simple issue with Maru is that he lacks a World Championship, whether that be Blizzcon or IEM Katowice (when it was chosen to be the World Championships)
Your problem with Maru is he lacks a world championship?
Maru has came second place in the world championships or close it it several times, and he has won countless code S and been competitive in that tournament for almost if not a decade.
Serral has won the world championship and 0 code S has not even competed in one.
You cannot compare the two Maru is in a league of his own
Answer to the quote above Maru is in a league of his own in terms of code S / longevity, but Serral is in the GOAT conversation now that he has 3 World Championships and has been the most feared foreign player since 2018 (or one of the most feared).
The problem is exactly the point of the topic: Serral won't ever participate in code S (and code S is becoming less and less prestigious / financially interesting, so only the true warriors like Reynor or the usual foreigners + some newcomers commit to participate in it, huge props to him / them for trying it out). On the other hand, Maru has no reason NOT to participate in code S, but his problem is that he is too good so he is the favorite every time he enters the tournament. At this point, winning code S is expected and anything but 1st place is a disappointment, since he is on paper the best KR player by far nowadays.
Personal opinion as a starcraft 2 fan / follower of the scene since WoL:
I personally think Maru should keep competing in code S for the money (his legacy in the tournament is already done), and try to win the tournament in Saudi Arabia not for the "WC" prestige, but rather just because it's a lot of money.
On the other hand, someone like Reynor needs to win code S for his legacy, so it's useful for him to try to win it. As for the money, lamborghini ain't cheap so he should keep winning the big $ tournaments as well.
For Serral though, his legacy is done too like Maru, so he should just farm money in the big tournaments he is allowed to enter I guess.
Foreigners who should try Code S would be Clem and HeroMarine, Clem because it would be useful for him on the international stage, and HeroMarine because he has a real shot at winning it given his intellect at figuring other players out. His mechanics ain't as good as Clem, but they are good enough to beat any player in the world if his plan is thought out enough.
This is one of the most absurd things i have ever read. Rough....
Which part?
Edit: unless StarCraft 2 lives long enough competitively, this GOAT list should be the final written one with good enough quality and research put into it to be considered « canon » like stuchiu’s list. So to all the Serral fans out there, sorry but the game is lost, people in 50 years that might read about StarCraft 2 and find this forum will conclude that the GOAT of this game was Maru.
We can thank Mizenhauer for writing history. The players made history, but the historians write History.
As a history student myself I can tell you that historians DO NOT write History, they analyze it. And that analysis can always be overturned, even when there are no new facts presented, happened a lot, will always happen. And random people looking into this game in 50 years won't read a collection of long articles to know who the GOAT was, they would just look up the very raw numbers. Which would present Serral on top with already two or three (depending on the count) World Championships and the most money earned (as of yet of course, the EWC might change a lot of that).
Combined with the fact that Serral is the far more widespread known player...Maru doesn't have particularly good odds to survive the test of time.
I guess we will see in 50 years then? If we are both still alive then, and you were right, I will give you something symbolic. If you are a young student in history, there are decent odds that we might still be alive in 50 years so this is a good bet to take. Are you in? If I end up being right I don’t need you to give me anything, Maru being considered GOAT 50 years from now would be a good enough gift.
Considering my lifestyle I will most definetly be kicking the bucket long before, but deal.
Finally, "the fact that Serral is the far more widespread known player" - is clearly just the European fan in you talking.
No, it isn't. If we talk beyond SC2 fans and just look at a general sense of Esports, Maru winning GSL doesn't mean anything. It's a small note. World Championships already attract more attention (not saying you can compare winning Katowice with Faker winning Worlds or anything), but the narrative of Serral "beating the koreans" is truely the thing that makes him famous, even now. Please also remember that if you don't know what GSL is, you would simply look at the prizepool...which would tell you "ah, this is probably not that important?" Doesn't say much about either of them, but it still remains a fact.
On May 12 2024 06:01 Ronski wrote: The GSL has always been a global tournament in name only. A tournament being held over a long period of time where each match takes place in a studio automatically weeds out majority of the world and only domestic players can reliably participate.
If there was a GSL style tournament but instead held in Europe or America majority of the players would be Europeans or Americans. The amount of Koreans willing to move and live in another continent with an entirely different culture and language they aren't fluent with would prevent most from participating, the same way the GSL keeps foreigners out due to how inconvenient it is to partake.
GSL has always been a tournament for Koreans held in korea with international competition allowed to partake if they are willing to deal with the inconveniences that come with it. While koreans are the best players in the world this made the GSL the hardest tournament to win and with price pool to match it became the most prestigious.
Modern GSL tournaments aren't as long as you think.
Neeb, Reynor, Oliveira, Astrea, SpeCial. Scarlett, Elazer, SortOf, Nice, Has, Zanster, and many other foreigners have had attempts at GSL. What noteworthy foreigners of LotV, except Serral and Clem, haven't?
Hell Maru even defeated Scarlett, Neeb, and Reynor during his 2018 GSL runs. He beat all of the players Serral did to win the World Championship that year, and then some, usually multiple times.
For the record I agree that the last few years Katowice and similar events are a bigger deal than GSL. But putting GSL in the box of 'regional events', basically just because Serral chooses not to compete, is a bit silly. And we all know you wouldn't be saying this if Serral played in GSL, there's no use in acting otherwise
Finally, "the fact that Serral is the far more widespread known player" - is clearly just the European fan in you talking.
No, it isn't. If we talk beyond SC2 fans and just look at a general sense of Esports, Maru winning GSL doesn't mean anything. It's a small note. World Championships already attract more attention (not saying you can compare winning Katowice with Faker winning Worlds or anything), but the narrative of Serral "beating the koreans" is truely the thing that makes him famous, even now. Please also remember that if you don't know what GSL is, you would simply look at the prizepool...which would tell you "ah, this is probably not that important?" Doesn't say much about either of them, but it still remains a fact.
C'mon man, if someone is into SC2 he knows Maru and he knows Serral.
If someone isn't into SC2 but he's heard of Serral for whatever other reason, how is he relevant? Surely we're talking about interest from reasonably informed members of the community. Fame barely plays a part in the GOAT discussion, let alone fame among random folks.
Btw am I having this conversation with a college kid? If so I'll stop.
On May 12 2024 04:19 kennytennyson2 wrote: My simple issue with Maru is that he lacks a World Championship, whether that be Blizzcon or IEM Katowice (when it was chosen to be the World Championships)
Your problem with Maru is he lacks a world championship?
Maru has came second place in the world championships or close it it several times, and he has won countless code S and been competitive in that tournament for almost if not a decade.
Serral has won the world championship and 0 code S has not even competed in one.
You cannot compare the two Maru is in a league of his own
Answer to the quote above Maru is in a league of his own in terms of code S / longevity, but Serral is in the GOAT conversation now that he has 3 World Championships and has been the most feared foreign player since 2018 (or one of the most feared).
The problem is exactly the point of the topic: Serral won't ever participate in code S (and code S is becoming less and less prestigious / financially interesting, so only the true warriors like Reynor or the usual foreigners + some newcomers commit to participate in it, huge props to him / them for trying it out). On the other hand, Maru has no reason NOT to participate in code S, but his problem is that he is too good so he is the favorite every time he enters the tournament. At this point, winning code S is expected and anything but 1st place is a disappointment, since he is on paper the best KR player by far nowadays.
Personal opinion as a starcraft 2 fan / follower of the scene since WoL:
I personally think Maru should keep competing in code S for the money (his legacy in the tournament is already done), and try to win the tournament in Saudi Arabia not for the "WC" prestige, but rather just because it's a lot of money.
On the other hand, someone like Reynor needs to win code S for his legacy, so it's useful for him to try to win it. As for the money, lamborghini ain't cheap so he should keep winning the big $ tournaments as well.
For Serral though, his legacy is done too like Maru, so he should just farm money in the big tournaments he is allowed to enter I guess.
Foreigners who should try Code S would be Clem and HeroMarine, Clem because it would be useful for him on the international stage, and HeroMarine because he has a real shot at winning it given his intellect at figuring other players out. His mechanics ain't as good as Clem, but they are good enough to beat any player in the world if his plan is thought out enough.
This is one of the most absurd things i have ever read. Rough....
Which part?
Edit: unless StarCraft 2 lives long enough competitively, this GOAT list should be the final written one with good enough quality and research put into it to be considered « canon » like stuchiu’s list. So to all the Serral fans out there, sorry but the game is lost, people in 50 years that might read about StarCraft 2 and find this forum will conclude that the GOAT of this game was Maru.
We can thank Mizenhauer for writing history. The players made history, but the historians write History.
As a history student myself I can tell you that historians DO NOT write History, they analyze it. And that analysis can always be overturned, even when there are no new facts presented, happened a lot, will always happen. And random people looking into this game in 50 years won't read a collection of long articles to know who the GOAT was, they would just look up the very raw numbers. Which would present Serral on top with already two or three (depending on the count) World Championships and the most money earned (as of yet of course, the EWC might change a lot of that).
Combined with the fact that Serral is the far more widespread known player...Maru doesn't have particularly good odds to survive the test of time.
I guess we will see in 50 years then? If we are both still alive then, and you were right, I will give you something symbolic. If you are a young student in history, there are decent odds that we might still be alive in 50 years so this is a good bet to take. Are you in? If I end up being right I don’t need you to give me anything, Maru being considered GOAT 50 years from now would be a good enough gift.
Considering my lifestyle I will most definetly be kicking the bucket long before, but deal.
Finally, "the fact that Serral is the far more widespread known player" - is clearly just the European fan in you talking.
No, it isn't. If we talk beyond SC2 fans and just look at a general sense of Esports, Maru winning GSL doesn't mean anything. It's a small note. World Championships already attract more attention (not saying you can compare winning Katowice with Faker winning Worlds or anything), but the narrative of Serral "beating the koreans" is truely the thing that makes him famous, even now. Please also remember that if you don't know what GSL is, you would simply look at the prizepool...which would tell you "ah, this is probably not that important?" Doesn't say much about either of them, but it still remains a fact.
Serral became relevant when sc2s popularity had already faded. Maru was a profilic player at the peak of sc2s popularity. Maru is for sure the more widespread known player
On May 12 2024 04:19 kennytennyson2 wrote: My simple issue with Maru is that he lacks a World Championship, whether that be Blizzcon or IEM Katowice (when it was chosen to be the World Championships)
Your problem with Maru is he lacks a world championship?
Maru has came second place in the world championships or close it it several times, and he has won countless code S and been competitive in that tournament for almost if not a decade.
Serral has won the world championship and 0 code S has not even competed in one.
You cannot compare the two Maru is in a league of his own
Answer to the quote above Maru is in a league of his own in terms of code S / longevity, but Serral is in the GOAT conversation now that he has 3 World Championships and has been the most feared foreign player since 2018 (or one of the most feared).
The problem is exactly the point of the topic: Serral won't ever participate in code S (and code S is becoming less and less prestigious / financially interesting, so only the true warriors like Reynor or the usual foreigners + some newcomers commit to participate in it, huge props to him / them for trying it out). On the other hand, Maru has no reason NOT to participate in code S, but his problem is that he is too good so he is the favorite every time he enters the tournament. At this point, winning code S is expected and anything but 1st place is a disappointment, since he is on paper the best KR player by far nowadays.
Personal opinion as a starcraft 2 fan / follower of the scene since WoL:
I personally think Maru should keep competing in code S for the money (his legacy in the tournament is already done), and try to win the tournament in Saudi Arabia not for the "WC" prestige, but rather just because it's a lot of money.
On the other hand, someone like Reynor needs to win code S for his legacy, so it's useful for him to try to win it. As for the money, lamborghini ain't cheap so he should keep winning the big $ tournaments as well.
For Serral though, his legacy is done too like Maru, so he should just farm money in the big tournaments he is allowed to enter I guess.
Foreigners who should try Code S would be Clem and HeroMarine, Clem because it would be useful for him on the international stage, and HeroMarine because he has a real shot at winning it given his intellect at figuring other players out. His mechanics ain't as good as Clem, but they are good enough to beat any player in the world if his plan is thought out enough.
This is one of the most absurd things i have ever read. Rough....
Which part?
Edit: unless StarCraft 2 lives long enough competitively, this GOAT list should be the final written one with good enough quality and research put into it to be considered « canon » like stuchiu’s list. So to all the Serral fans out there, sorry but the game is lost, people in 50 years that might read about StarCraft 2 and find this forum will conclude that the GOAT of this game was Maru.
We can thank Mizenhauer for writing history. The players made history, but the historians write History.
As a history student myself I can tell you that historians DO NOT write History, they analyze it. And that analysis can always be overturned, even when there are no new facts presented, happened a lot, will always happen. And random people looking into this game in 50 years won't read a collection of long articles to know who the GOAT was, they would just look up the very raw numbers. Which would present Serral on top with already two or three (depending on the count) World Championships and the most money earned (as of yet of course, the EWC might change a lot of that).
Combined with the fact that Serral is the far more widespread known player...Maru doesn't have particularly good odds to survive the test of time.
I guess we will see in 50 years then? If we are both still alive then, and you were right, I will give you something symbolic. If you are a young student in history, there are decent odds that we might still be alive in 50 years so this is a good bet to take. Are you in? If I end up being right I don’t need you to give me anything, Maru being considered GOAT 50 years from now would be a good enough gift.
Considering my lifestyle I will most definetly be kicking the bucket long before, but deal.
Finally, "the fact that Serral is the far more widespread known player" - is clearly just the European fan in you talking.
No, it isn't. If we talk beyond SC2 fans and just look at a general sense of Esports, Maru winning GSL doesn't mean anything. It's a small note. World Championships already attract more attention (not saying you can compare winning Katowice with Faker winning Worlds or anything), but the narrative of Serral "beating the koreans" is truely the thing that makes him famous, even now. Please also remember that if you don't know what GSL is, you would simply look at the prizepool...which would tell you "ah, this is probably not that important?" Doesn't say much about either of them, but it still remains a fact.
Well if we think about "famous", INno is probably more famous than every other KR Player then: his brother is Gumayusi playing for the greatest team of all time in LoL (yes the one with Faker), he is well known in the chinese community (and there are more chinese than europeans), and he won WESG versus a guy named Serral, winning a lot of money in the process
INno would be my #1 GOAT in a world without Maru, the guy is just incredibly talented, just a little bit less godlike than Maru.
On May 13 2024 09:07 goldensail wrote: I want to divide this thread into 2 parts:
Part 1) GSL The fact that Korean returnees (from military service) like herO are still dominating says a lot about the former level of competitiveness of KR players - herO wasn't even the best Protoss before! So Maru's 4-peat in GSL '18/'19 back when Inno, Rogue, Dark, SOS, Stats, TY, Classic were all still at their prime, is the most impressive accomplishment of any SC2 player IMO.
Regarding the current scene: 1. Let's remember the most recent GSL showing by Reynor isn't his first attempt, nor his second, but his third - and he has never gone past round 1. 2. Personally I cannot take Maxpax seriously until he shows up offline or at least turns his cam on. What if he's looking at a real time cast during online play? I'm not accusing him of doing so, there's no evidence that this happens, but I don't understand why everyone else has to abide by a very reasonable rule and he doesn't? 3. Clem has moments of brilliance, but hasn't been stable enough e.g. he lost 0-3 to Firefly recently in WTL and it's not like he wasn't trying judging from how he looked on cam. 4. Olivera gave Maru a black eye in Kato '23 which is often used against the latter, but let's not forget he also beat Reynor and herO that day. Let's see if he can find his occasional magic in the upcoming Stars War event on his home court, but otherwise he's usually a RO8 player and not more.
In summary, with the exception of Serral, RoWstill doesn't compare to Korea. If we have an international offline event today without regional quota, is it not reasonable to see 10~11 KR, 4~5 EU, and 1 Asian players making RO16? GSL, even in its current state, is still far more than "just another regional locked event".
Part 2) Maru 1. The international premier events that Maru participated in but didn't win (championship-wise) are basically all held in Europe/US, and home court/time zone is definitely an advantage for local players. Maru seemed more comfortable at WESGs for example, where the time difference is only 1 hr (between China and Korea). 2) Maru is notorious for trying different openings that often put him behind in the early game but then claws his way back. To me this makes watching his games more exciting (and scary). It also says something about his confidence i.e. he can goof and win anyway. 3) Maru has openly talked about his injuries since at least '21, and I can definitely see him slowing down with wear and tear. Injuries can be expected to affect micro-heavy Terrans very significantly and it must be frustrating. For him to still win title after title is testament to his skill - I mean the guy had a large patch on his shoulder during the most recent GSL finals and he dominated anyway. 2 Kato finals in a row is a dissappointment only for Maru - it would be an accomplishment for basically anyone else.
It's not my intention to diss anyone to pump Maru in this thread, but to celebrate the truly legendary SC2 player that he is. I don't mind one bit that he win another GSL, although I hope he perserves his arm well for a global event of the highest prize pool which he certainly deserves to win.
Quality post in a sea of new gen starcraft fans Finally someone enlightened in this GOAT debate
On May 12 2024 04:19 kennytennyson2 wrote: My simple issue with Maru is that he lacks a World Championship, whether that be Blizzcon or IEM Katowice (when it was chosen to be the World Championships)
Your problem with Maru is he lacks a world championship?
Maru has came second place in the world championships or close it it several times, and he has won countless code S and been competitive in that tournament for almost if not a decade.
Serral has won the world championship and 0 code S has not even competed in one.
You cannot compare the two Maru is in a league of his own
Answer to the quote above Maru is in a league of his own in terms of code S / longevity, but Serral is in the GOAT conversation now that he has 3 World Championships and has been the most feared foreign player since 2018 (or one of the most feared).
The problem is exactly the point of the topic: Serral won't ever participate in code S (and code S is becoming less and less prestigious / financially interesting, so only the true warriors like Reynor or the usual foreigners + some newcomers commit to participate in it, huge props to him / them for trying it out). On the other hand, Maru has no reason NOT to participate in code S, but his problem is that he is too good so he is the favorite every time he enters the tournament. At this point, winning code S is expected and anything but 1st place is a disappointment, since he is on paper the best KR player by far nowadays.
Personal opinion as a starcraft 2 fan / follower of the scene since WoL:
I personally think Maru should keep competing in code S for the money (his legacy in the tournament is already done), and try to win the tournament in Saudi Arabia not for the "WC" prestige, but rather just because it's a lot of money.
On the other hand, someone like Reynor needs to win code S for his legacy, so it's useful for him to try to win it. As for the money, lamborghini ain't cheap so he should keep winning the big $ tournaments as well.
For Serral though, his legacy is done too like Maru, so he should just farm money in the big tournaments he is allowed to enter I guess.
Foreigners who should try Code S would be Clem and HeroMarine, Clem because it would be useful for him on the international stage, and HeroMarine because he has a real shot at winning it given his intellect at figuring other players out. His mechanics ain't as good as Clem, but they are good enough to beat any player in the world if his plan is thought out enough.
This is one of the most absurd things i have ever read. Rough....
Which part?
Edit: unless StarCraft 2 lives long enough competitively, this GOAT list should be the final written one with good enough quality and research put into it to be considered « canon » like stuchiu’s list. So to all the Serral fans out there, sorry but the game is lost, people in 50 years that might read about StarCraft 2 and find this forum will conclude that the GOAT of this game was Maru.
We can thank Mizenhauer for writing history. The players made history, but the historians write History.
As a history student myself I can tell you that historians DO NOT write History, they analyze it. And that analysis can always be overturned, even when there are no new facts presented, happened a lot, will always happen. And random people looking into this game in 50 years won't read a collection of long articles to know who the GOAT was, they would just look up the very raw numbers. Which would present Serral on top with already two or three (depending on the count) World Championships and the most money earned (as of yet of course, the EWC might change a lot of that).
Combined with the fact that Serral is the far more widespread known player...Maru doesn't have particularly good odds to survive the test of time.
I guess we will see in 50 years then? If we are both still alive then, and you were right, I will give you something symbolic. If you are a young student in history, there are decent odds that we might still be alive in 50 years so this is a good bet to take. Are you in? If I end up being right I don’t need you to give me anything, Maru being considered GOAT 50 years from now would be a good enough gift.
in 50 years serral will be synonym with starcraft 2
In korea they wont even talk about starcraft 2 and just remember bw players
On May 12 2024 04:19 kennytennyson2 wrote: My simple issue with Maru is that he lacks a World Championship, whether that be Blizzcon or IEM Katowice (when it was chosen to be the World Championships)
Your problem with Maru is he lacks a world championship?
Maru has came second place in the world championships or close it it several times, and he has won countless code S and been competitive in that tournament for almost if not a decade.
Serral has won the world championship and 0 code S has not even competed in one.
You cannot compare the two Maru is in a league of his own
Answer to the quote above Maru is in a league of his own in terms of code S / longevity, but Serral is in the GOAT conversation now that he has 3 World Championships and has been the most feared foreign player since 2018 (or one of the most feared).
The problem is exactly the point of the topic: Serral won't ever participate in code S (and code S is becoming less and less prestigious / financially interesting, so only the true warriors like Reynor or the usual foreigners + some newcomers commit to participate in it, huge props to him / them for trying it out). On the other hand, Maru has no reason NOT to participate in code S, but his problem is that he is too good so he is the favorite every time he enters the tournament. At this point, winning code S is expected and anything but 1st place is a disappointment, since he is on paper the best KR player by far nowadays.
Personal opinion as a starcraft 2 fan / follower of the scene since WoL:
I personally think Maru should keep competing in code S for the money (his legacy in the tournament is already done), and try to win the tournament in Saudi Arabia not for the "WC" prestige, but rather just because it's a lot of money.
On the other hand, someone like Reynor needs to win code S for his legacy, so it's useful for him to try to win it. As for the money, lamborghini ain't cheap so he should keep winning the big $ tournaments as well.
For Serral though, his legacy is done too like Maru, so he should just farm money in the big tournaments he is allowed to enter I guess.
Foreigners who should try Code S would be Clem and HeroMarine, Clem because it would be useful for him on the international stage, and HeroMarine because he has a real shot at winning it given his intellect at figuring other players out. His mechanics ain't as good as Clem, but they are good enough to beat any player in the world if his plan is thought out enough.
This is one of the most absurd things i have ever read. Rough....
Which part?
Edit: unless StarCraft 2 lives long enough competitively, this GOAT list should be the final written one with good enough quality and research put into it to be considered « canon » like stuchiu’s list. So to all the Serral fans out there, sorry but the game is lost, people in 50 years that might read about StarCraft 2 and find this forum will conclude that the GOAT of this game was Maru.
We can thank Mizenhauer for writing history. The players made history, but the historians write History.
As a history student myself I can tell you that historians DO NOT write History, they analyze it. And that analysis can always be overturned, even when there are no new facts presented, happened a lot, will always happen. And random people looking into this game in 50 years won't read a collection of long articles to know who the GOAT was, they would just look up the very raw numbers. Which would present Serral on top with already two or three (depending on the count) World Championships and the most money earned (as of yet of course, the EWC might change a lot of that).
Combined with the fact that Serral is the far more widespread known player...Maru doesn't have particularly good odds to survive the test of time.
I guess we will see in 50 years then? If we are both still alive then, and you were right, I will give you something symbolic. If you are a young student in history, there are decent odds that we might still be alive in 50 years so this is a good bet to take. Are you in? If I end up being right I don’t need you to give me anything, Maru being considered GOAT 50 years from now would be a good enough gift.
in 50 years serral will be synonym with starcraft 2
In korea they wont even talk about starcraft 2 and just remember bw players
On May 12 2024 04:19 kennytennyson2 wrote: My simple issue with Maru is that he lacks a World Championship, whether that be Blizzcon or IEM Katowice (when it was chosen to be the World Championships)
Your problem with Maru is he lacks a world championship?
Maru has came second place in the world championships or close it it several times, and he has won countless code S and been competitive in that tournament for almost if not a decade.
Serral has won the world championship and 0 code S has not even competed in one.
You cannot compare the two Maru is in a league of his own
Answer to the quote above Maru is in a league of his own in terms of code S / longevity, but Serral is in the GOAT conversation now that he has 3 World Championships and has been the most feared foreign player since 2018 (or one of the most feared).
The problem is exactly the point of the topic: Serral won't ever participate in code S (and code S is becoming less and less prestigious / financially interesting, so only the true warriors like Reynor or the usual foreigners + some newcomers commit to participate in it, huge props to him / them for trying it out). On the other hand, Maru has no reason NOT to participate in code S, but his problem is that he is too good so he is the favorite every time he enters the tournament. At this point, winning code S is expected and anything but 1st place is a disappointment, since he is on paper the best KR player by far nowadays.
Personal opinion as a starcraft 2 fan / follower of the scene since WoL:
I personally think Maru should keep competing in code S for the money (his legacy in the tournament is already done), and try to win the tournament in Saudi Arabia not for the "WC" prestige, but rather just because it's a lot of money.
On the other hand, someone like Reynor needs to win code S for his legacy, so it's useful for him to try to win it. As for the money, lamborghini ain't cheap so he should keep winning the big $ tournaments as well.
For Serral though, his legacy is done too like Maru, so he should just farm money in the big tournaments he is allowed to enter I guess.
Foreigners who should try Code S would be Clem and HeroMarine, Clem because it would be useful for him on the international stage, and HeroMarine because he has a real shot at winning it given his intellect at figuring other players out. His mechanics ain't as good as Clem, but they are good enough to beat any player in the world if his plan is thought out enough.
This is one of the most absurd things i have ever read. Rough....
Which part?
Edit: unless StarCraft 2 lives long enough competitively, this GOAT list should be the final written one with good enough quality and research put into it to be considered « canon » like stuchiu’s list. So to all the Serral fans out there, sorry but the game is lost, people in 50 years that might read about StarCraft 2 and find this forum will conclude that the GOAT of this game was Maru.
We can thank Mizenhauer for writing history. The players made history, but the historians write History.
As a history student myself I can tell you that historians DO NOT write History, they analyze it. And that analysis can always be overturned, even when there are no new facts presented, happened a lot, will always happen. And random people looking into this game in 50 years won't read a collection of long articles to know who the GOAT was, they would just look up the very raw numbers. Which would present Serral on top with already two or three (depending on the count) World Championships and the most money earned (as of yet of course, the EWC might change a lot of that).
Combined with the fact that Serral is the far more widespread known player...Maru doesn't have particularly good odds to survive the test of time.
I guess we will see in 50 years then? If we are both still alive then, and you were right, I will give you something symbolic. If you are a young student in history, there are decent odds that we might still be alive in 50 years so this is a good bet to take. Are you in? If I end up being right I don’t need you to give me anything, Maru being considered GOAT 50 years from now would be a good enough gift.
Considering my lifestyle I will most definetly be kicking the bucket long before, but deal.
Finally, "the fact that Serral is the far more widespread known player" - is clearly just the European fan in you talking.
No, it isn't. If we talk beyond SC2 fans and just look at a general sense of Esports, Maru winning GSL doesn't mean anything. It's a small note. World Championships already attract more attention (not saying you can compare winning Katowice with Faker winning Worlds or anything), but the narrative of Serral "beating the koreans" is truely the thing that makes him famous, even now. Please also remember that if you don't know what GSL is, you would simply look at the prizepool...which would tell you "ah, this is probably not that important?" Doesn't say much about either of them, but it still remains a fact.
Serral became relevant when sc2s popularity had already faded. Maru was a profilic player at the peak of sc2s popularity. Maru is for sure the more widespread known player
Happy cake day!
That said I wish people wouldn’t make assertions like this.
Maru prior to his 4peat, which I might add is also in the epoch of Serral becoming relevant was actually pretty underrated IMO. SC2 has always been pretty much a foreign affair as terms of audience. Hey I watched and dug Proleague but a hell of a lot of SC2 viewers didn’t. Of the Starleagues, the more casual fan would have been far more likely to check out the GSL than SSL or w/e
Mvp was the guy, and he popped over to things like MLGs and won multiple international tournaments. In a period where this was novel. MC was winning many a fan as much for his personality as his play.
Latterly Taeja doing his thing (see GOAT discussions from that period), Life obviously and the first incarnation of Innovation
These aren’t arguments against Maru’s accomplishments, as I said I feel he was somewhat underrated prior to his GSL explosion, but the perception of him by and large.
I could argue that Taylor Swift is great, or sucks (I actually quite like her work), that’s subject to subjectivity but I can’t really make a claim that she’s not popular as she very obviously is.
Anybody who follows SC2 even vaguely will know who Maru is, and Serral, you can’t not. I mean you can’t be a tennis fan but not having heard of Roger Federer and Rafael Nadal. As to how they’re perceived in the pantheon, I don’t actually know. I would suspect it maybe swings Serral, between foreigner bias, foreigner audience, him winning those big WC tournaments, and some of Maru’s best work being in domains a lot of the audience probably didn’t consume, or value all that much.
I think proper SC2 connoisseurs who devour everything, who are on TL LR threads for any and all meaningful tournaments can better contextualise their achievements, and may diverge based on subjective weightings, but a lot of SC2 fans, I’d wager the majority do not do this.
For the record they’re both pretty neck and neck for me, I think Maru can pull stuff off nobody else can when he’s absolutely on it and Serral brings an unparalleled level of consistently high performance to the table. Maru will do something cool that will make me want to log in and completely fail to replicate it, and Serral is that relentless winner that inspires that way, like a peak Tiger Woods or a Novak Djokovic.
Maru should be known as the best/greatest KR players and Terran players, at the very least. Its hard to gauge popularity, because greater accomplishment doesnt always guarantee greater popularity. I dare say Clem is more popular than Maru right now, and even Byun is probably known more to Western audience than Maru because of his style and personality.
On May 12 2024 04:19 kennytennyson2 wrote: My simple issue with Maru is that he lacks a World Championship, whether that be Blizzcon or IEM Katowice (when it was chosen to be the World Championships)
Your problem with Maru is he lacks a world championship?
Maru has came second place in the world championships or close it it several times, and he has won countless code S and been competitive in that tournament for almost if not a decade.
Serral has won the world championship and 0 code S has not even competed in one.
You cannot compare the two Maru is in a league of his own
Answer to the quote above Maru is in a league of his own in terms of code S / longevity, but Serral is in the GOAT conversation now that he has 3 World Championships and has been the most feared foreign player since 2018 (or one of the most feared).
The problem is exactly the point of the topic: Serral won't ever participate in code S (and code S is becoming less and less prestigious / financially interesting, so only the true warriors like Reynor or the usual foreigners + some newcomers commit to participate in it, huge props to him / them for trying it out). On the other hand, Maru has no reason NOT to participate in code S, but his problem is that he is too good so he is the favorite every time he enters the tournament. At this point, winning code S is expected and anything but 1st place is a disappointment, since he is on paper the best KR player by far nowadays.
Personal opinion as a starcraft 2 fan / follower of the scene since WoL:
I personally think Maru should keep competing in code S for the money (his legacy in the tournament is already done), and try to win the tournament in Saudi Arabia not for the "WC" prestige, but rather just because it's a lot of money.
On the other hand, someone like Reynor needs to win code S for his legacy, so it's useful for him to try to win it. As for the money, lamborghini ain't cheap so he should keep winning the big $ tournaments as well.
For Serral though, his legacy is done too like Maru, so he should just farm money in the big tournaments he is allowed to enter I guess.
Foreigners who should try Code S would be Clem and HeroMarine, Clem because it would be useful for him on the international stage, and HeroMarine because he has a real shot at winning it given his intellect at figuring other players out. His mechanics ain't as good as Clem, but they are good enough to beat any player in the world if his plan is thought out enough.
This is one of the most absurd things i have ever read. Rough....
Which part?
Edit: unless StarCraft 2 lives long enough competitively, this GOAT list should be the final written one with good enough quality and research put into it to be considered « canon » like stuchiu’s list. So to all the Serral fans out there, sorry but the game is lost, people in 50 years that might read about StarCraft 2 and find this forum will conclude that the GOAT of this game was Maru.
We can thank Mizenhauer for writing history. The players made history, but the historians write History.
As a history student myself I can tell you that historians DO NOT write History, they analyze it. And that analysis can always be overturned, even when there are no new facts presented, happened a lot, will always happen. And random people looking into this game in 50 years won't read a collection of long articles to know who the GOAT was, they would just look up the very raw numbers. Which would present Serral on top with already two or three (depending on the count) World Championships and the most money earned (as of yet of course, the EWC might change a lot of that).
Combined with the fact that Serral is the far more widespread known player...Maru doesn't have particularly good odds to survive the test of time.
I guess we will see in 50 years then? If we are both still alive then, and you were right, I will give you something symbolic. If you are a young student in history, there are decent odds that we might still be alive in 50 years so this is a good bet to take. Are you in? If I end up being right I don’t need you to give me anything, Maru being considered GOAT 50 years from now would be a good enough gift.
Considering my lifestyle I will most definetly be kicking the bucket long before, but deal.
Finally, "the fact that Serral is the far more widespread known player" - is clearly just the European fan in you talking.
No, it isn't. If we talk beyond SC2 fans and just look at a general sense of Esports, Maru winning GSL doesn't mean anything. It's a small note. World Championships already attract more attention (not saying you can compare winning Katowice with Faker winning Worlds or anything), but the narrative of Serral "beating the koreans" is truely the thing that makes him famous, even now. Please also remember that if you don't know what GSL is, you would simply look at the prizepool...which would tell you "ah, this is probably not that important?" Doesn't say much about either of them, but it still remains a fact.
Serral became relevant when sc2s popularity had already faded. Maru was a profilic player at the peak of sc2s popularity. Maru is for sure the more widespread known player
Happy cake day!
That said I wish people wouldn’t make assertions like this.
Maru prior to his 4peat, which I might add is also in the epoch of Serral becoming relevant was actually pretty underrated IMO. SC2 has always been pretty much a foreign affair as terms of audience. Hey I watched and dug Proleague but a hell of a lot of SC2 viewers didn’t. Of the Starleagues, the more casual fan would have been far more likely to check out the GSL than SSL or w/e
Mvp was the guy, and he popped over to things like MLGs and won multiple international tournaments. In a period where this was novel. MC was winning many a fan as much for his personality as his play.
Latterly Taeja doing his thing (see GOAT discussions from that period), Life obviously and the first incarnation of Innovation
These aren’t arguments against Maru’s accomplishments, as I said I feel he was somewhat underrated prior to his GSL explosion, but the perception of him by and large.
I could argue that Taylor Swift is great, or sucks (I actually quite like her work), that’s subject to subjectivity but I can’t really make a claim that she’s not popular as she very obviously is.
Anybody who follows SC2 even vaguely will know who Maru is, and Serral, you can’t not. I mean you can’t be a tennis fan but not having heard of Roger Federer and Rafael Nadal. As to how they’re perceived in the pantheon, I don’t actually know. I would suspect it maybe swings Serral, between foreigner bias, foreigner audience, him winning those big WC tournaments, and some of Maru’s best work being in domains a lot of the audience probably didn’t consume, or value all that much.
I think proper SC2 connoisseurs who devour everything, who are on TL LR threads for any and all meaningful tournaments can better contextualise their achievements, and may diverge based on subjective weightings, but a lot of SC2 fans, I’d wager the majority do not do this.
For the record they’re both pretty neck and neck for me, I think Maru can pull stuff off nobody else can when he’s absolutely on it and Serral brings an unparalleled level of consistently high performance to the table. Maru will do something cool that will make me want to log in and completely fail to replicate it, and Serral is that relentless winner that inspires that way, like a peak Tiger Woods or a Novak Djokovic.
Maru is not well known in the casual audience, but I would rather have my boy Maru known in the KR elitist niche club on tl.net rather than the random sc2 viewers who think getting masters level in any game is a difficult achievement
On May 12 2024 04:19 kennytennyson2 wrote: My simple issue with Maru is that he lacks a World Championship, whether that be Blizzcon or IEM Katowice (when it was chosen to be the World Championships)
Your problem with Maru is he lacks a world championship?
Maru has came second place in the world championships or close it it several times, and he has won countless code S and been competitive in that tournament for almost if not a decade.
Serral has won the world championship and 0 code S has not even competed in one.
You cannot compare the two Maru is in a league of his own
Answer to the quote above Maru is in a league of his own in terms of code S / longevity, but Serral is in the GOAT conversation now that he has 3 World Championships and has been the most feared foreign player since 2018 (or one of the most feared).
The problem is exactly the point of the topic: Serral won't ever participate in code S (and code S is becoming less and less prestigious / financially interesting, so only the true warriors like Reynor or the usual foreigners + some newcomers commit to participate in it, huge props to him / them for trying it out). On the other hand, Maru has no reason NOT to participate in code S, but his problem is that he is too good so he is the favorite every time he enters the tournament. At this point, winning code S is expected and anything but 1st place is a disappointment, since he is on paper the best KR player by far nowadays.
Personal opinion as a starcraft 2 fan / follower of the scene since WoL:
I personally think Maru should keep competing in code S for the money (his legacy in the tournament is already done), and try to win the tournament in Saudi Arabia not for the "WC" prestige, but rather just because it's a lot of money.
On the other hand, someone like Reynor needs to win code S for his legacy, so it's useful for him to try to win it. As for the money, lamborghini ain't cheap so he should keep winning the big $ tournaments as well.
For Serral though, his legacy is done too like Maru, so he should just farm money in the big tournaments he is allowed to enter I guess.
Foreigners who should try Code S would be Clem and HeroMarine, Clem because it would be useful for him on the international stage, and HeroMarine because he has a real shot at winning it given his intellect at figuring other players out. His mechanics ain't as good as Clem, but they are good enough to beat any player in the world if his plan is thought out enough.
This is one of the most absurd things i have ever read. Rough....
Which part?
Edit: unless StarCraft 2 lives long enough competitively, this GOAT list should be the final written one with good enough quality and research put into it to be considered « canon » like stuchiu’s list. So to all the Serral fans out there, sorry but the game is lost, people in 50 years that might read about StarCraft 2 and find this forum will conclude that the GOAT of this game was Maru.
We can thank Mizenhauer for writing history. The players made history, but the historians write History.
As a history student myself I can tell you that historians DO NOT write History, they analyze it. And that analysis can always be overturned, even when there are no new facts presented, happened a lot, will always happen. And random people looking into this game in 50 years won't read a collection of long articles to know who the GOAT was, they would just look up the very raw numbers. Which would present Serral on top with already two or three (depending on the count) World Championships and the most money earned (as of yet of course, the EWC might change a lot of that).
Combined with the fact that Serral is the far more widespread known player...Maru doesn't have particularly good odds to survive the test of time.
I guess we will see in 50 years then? If we are both still alive then, and you were right, I will give you something symbolic. If you are a young student in history, there are decent odds that we might still be alive in 50 years so this is a good bet to take. Are you in? If I end up being right I don’t need you to give me anything, Maru being considered GOAT 50 years from now would be a good enough gift.
Considering my lifestyle I will most definetly be kicking the bucket long before, but deal.
Finally, "the fact that Serral is the far more widespread known player" - is clearly just the European fan in you talking.
No, it isn't. If we talk beyond SC2 fans and just look at a general sense of Esports, Maru winning GSL doesn't mean anything. It's a small note. World Championships already attract more attention (not saying you can compare winning Katowice with Faker winning Worlds or anything), but the narrative of Serral "beating the koreans" is truely the thing that makes him famous, even now. Please also remember that if you don't know what GSL is, you would simply look at the prizepool...which would tell you "ah, this is probably not that important?" Doesn't say much about either of them, but it still remains a fact.
Serral became relevant when sc2s popularity had already faded. Maru was a profilic player at the peak of sc2s popularity. Maru is for sure the more widespread known player
In my personal (although limited) experience of speaking with people who are into gaming but not into SC2, Serral (or "that Finish or Swede guy") definitely rang more of a bell than Maru. He made some headlines outside of the SC2 community. If you followed SC2 enough to know who Maru was in 2014-15, it's almost certain that you know who Serral is, even if you didn't watch SC2 by then, I don't think the opposite is true.
But in any case, it dosen't really matter, Idra is arguably one of the most well-known SC2 players, but I'd be hard press to put him in a top 100 if we look only at actual results and talent.
On May 12 2024 04:19 kennytennyson2 wrote: My simple issue with Maru is that he lacks a World Championship, whether that be Blizzcon or IEM Katowice (when it was chosen to be the World Championships)
Your problem with Maru is he lacks a world championship?
Maru has came second place in the world championships or close it it several times, and he has won countless code S and been competitive in that tournament for almost if not a decade.
Serral has won the world championship and 0 code S has not even competed in one.
You cannot compare the two Maru is in a league of his own
Answer to the quote above Maru is in a league of his own in terms of code S / longevity, but Serral is in the GOAT conversation now that he has 3 World Championships and has been the most feared foreign player since 2018 (or one of the most feared).
The problem is exactly the point of the topic: Serral won't ever participate in code S (and code S is becoming less and less prestigious / financially interesting, so only the true warriors like Reynor or the usual foreigners + some newcomers commit to participate in it, huge props to him / them for trying it out). On the other hand, Maru has no reason NOT to participate in code S, but his problem is that he is too good so he is the favorite every time he enters the tournament. At this point, winning code S is expected and anything but 1st place is a disappointment, since he is on paper the best KR player by far nowadays.
Personal opinion as a starcraft 2 fan / follower of the scene since WoL:
I personally think Maru should keep competing in code S for the money (his legacy in the tournament is already done), and try to win the tournament in Saudi Arabia not for the "WC" prestige, but rather just because it's a lot of money.
On the other hand, someone like Reynor needs to win code S for his legacy, so it's useful for him to try to win it. As for the money, lamborghini ain't cheap so he should keep winning the big $ tournaments as well.
For Serral though, his legacy is done too like Maru, so he should just farm money in the big tournaments he is allowed to enter I guess.
Foreigners who should try Code S would be Clem and HeroMarine, Clem because it would be useful for him on the international stage, and HeroMarine because he has a real shot at winning it given his intellect at figuring other players out. His mechanics ain't as good as Clem, but they are good enough to beat any player in the world if his plan is thought out enough.
This is one of the most absurd things i have ever read. Rough....
Which part?
Edit: unless StarCraft 2 lives long enough competitively, this GOAT list should be the final written one with good enough quality and research put into it to be considered « canon » like stuchiu’s list. So to all the Serral fans out there, sorry but the game is lost, people in 50 years that might read about StarCraft 2 and find this forum will conclude that the GOAT of this game was Maru.
We can thank Mizenhauer for writing history. The players made history, but the historians write History.
As a history student myself I can tell you that historians DO NOT write History, they analyze it. And that analysis can always be overturned, even when there are no new facts presented, happened a lot, will always happen. And random people looking into this game in 50 years won't read a collection of long articles to know who the GOAT was, they would just look up the very raw numbers. Which would present Serral on top with already two or three (depending on the count) World Championships and the most money earned (as of yet of course, the EWC might change a lot of that).
Combined with the fact that Serral is the far more widespread known player...Maru doesn't have particularly good odds to survive the test of time.
I guess we will see in 50 years then? If we are both still alive then, and you were right, I will give you something symbolic. If you are a young student in history, there are decent odds that we might still be alive in 50 years so this is a good bet to take. Are you in? If I end up being right I don’t need you to give me anything, Maru being considered GOAT 50 years from now would be a good enough gift.
in 50 years serral will be synonym with starcraft 2
In korea they wont even talk about starcraft 2 and just remember bw players
On May 13 2024 21:45 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: holy crap i just realized, yes why doesn't maxpax have to turn his webcam on when others have to in online tournaments?
In short, if it's either that or you don't have him, the organizers let it fly. Pretty sure he has taken financial penalties in Chinese tournaments because of it.
On May 13 2024 21:45 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: holy crap i just realized, yes why doesn't maxpax have to turn his webcam on when others have to in online tournaments?
He has to, but he pay penalties. It's the same in other sports, if you can afford to pay the fees, you can basically act however you want.
Finally, "the fact that Serral is the far more widespread known player" - is clearly just the European fan in you talking.
No, it isn't. If we talk beyond SC2 fans and just look at a general sense of Esports, Maru winning GSL doesn't mean anything. It's a small note. World Championships already attract more attention (not saying you can compare winning Katowice with Faker winning Worlds or anything), but the narrative of Serral "beating the koreans" is truely the thing that makes him famous, even now. Please also remember that if you don't know what GSL is, you would simply look at the prizepool...which would tell you "ah, this is probably not that important?" Doesn't say much about either of them, but it still remains a fact.
C'mon man, if someone is into SC2 he knows Maru and he knows Serral.
If someone isn't into SC2 but he's heard of Serral for whatever other reason, how is he relevant? Surely we're talking about interest from reasonably informed members of the community. Fame barely plays a part in the GOAT discussion, let alone fame among random folks.
Btw am I having this conversation with a college kid? If so I'll stop.
Is the "college kid" (cute assumption btw) using too difficult of words for you or why is that?
To wrap that topic up: Please read the entire conversation. I mentioned Serral being "more widespread famous" in the context of who would be remembered in 50 years...which is a cute, insignificant argument Poopi and I were having. Of course "fame outside of the games community" is not an argument for GOATness, or lets say it is one, but it comes preeeetty far down the list and will never be the tiebreaker. But that wasn't the argument we were having.
But to make it clear: Yes, of course, anyone in the SC2 community knows Maru and Serral. Everyone in said community probably knows 99% of players who play any ESL Regional and/or WTL. The playerbase is too small to make the "do you know this MaSa-kid? I think he is the next thing, he is SO good"-kind of statements anymore. Anyone outside of the SC2 community (and that includes people who left 2014/15) probably have no idea who Maru is, because there is no reason to know him if you aren't into SC2. If you are interested in Esports in general, you might atleast heard about the Serral-sensation of 2018. But that is about it.
Maybe to demonstrate: For those people who never were interested in WC3, do you know (without looking it up) which two players entered the WCG Hall of Fame for WC3?
On May 13 2024 12:04 AlexGano wrote: I remember you said there would be a detailed article about why dark got #11, is it still on your schedule or it has been posted before?
That won't be happening any time soon. The TLDR is, that just like NesTea, Mvp etc recieved "demerits" for having short careers, how long a player played came into consideration as well. My issues with Dark were 1) inflated win rate in Code S due to some weird placements. 2) He has the second longest uninterpreted career behind Maru. Did he achieve enough over the course of his career given the opportunities he's enjoyed (compared to other players obviously)?
I had Dark as high as seven during my process, but some arbitrary decisions made during the planning stages (how to weigh things etc) were less than flattering when applied to someone with Dark's career profile. Had I chosen different parameters, he easily could have been higher. For example, If I was only concerned with collective career achievements, Dark would be fourth behind Maru, Serral, Rogue.
On May 13 2024 21:45 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: holy crap i just realized, yes why doesn't maxpax have to turn his webcam on when others have to in online tournaments?
Maybe it's actually some kind of Danish-made AI algorithm playing, like AlphaGo in some Go tournaments or the old IBM Chess Programs in some Chess tournaments?
On May 12 2024 02:19 Mizenhauer wrote: MOD EDIT: Spoilering OP + Show Spoiler +
GOAT Addendum: Maru and the perception of Code S
With Code S fully underway, we find ourselves in an increasingly familiar situation. Maru, fresh off claiming his eighth Code S title, has already advanced to the Round of 8, and looks poised to win the tournament for a ninth time.
Maru’s position as the undisputed best player in South Korea is far from surprising. Every truly great player leaves behind a legacy and Maru’s will inevitably be tied to his complete dominance of the most prestigious competition in StarCraft II history. Four titles ahead of the closest contender, Maru is the unquestioned king of Code S. But, given how absolute his reign has been, his success begs questions. One of which is, how do we evaluate Maru’s future success in a competition in which he has lapped the field time and again?
While some might quibble about the current level of competition, Code S remains the gold standard when it comes to individual competition. There are events with larger prize pools and stiffer competition, but none can best Code S when it comes to historical significance and name value. Fourteen years ago, in the nascent days of Wings of Liberty, Mvp, NesTea and MC built their reputation on Code S titles. INnoVation, Zest and Rain continued that tradition—defying the odds by winning seasons of Code S where two thirds of the participants were viable championship contenders. Stats and Rogue added their names to the ledgers in Legacy of the Void and, even now, with an inarguably diminished scene, winning Code S secures you an indelible place in StarCraft II history. TY and Dark may have only won the competition twice, but those triumphs rank among the greatest accomplishments of their decorated careers.
Maru earned his first Korean Individual League trophy in 2013, before doubling his trophy haul during Season 1 of SSL two years later. But, it wasn’t until 2018 that he finally captured the Code S title which had eluded him for eight years.
He followed that up by winning the next three seasons, as well—instantly catapulting himself ahead of Mvp (who had held the record for most championships since 2011). Six years removed from his fourth title, Maru is the undisputed master of Code S. He has won eight of the 17 Seasons held from 2018 onwards. With another three second place finishes to his name, Maru has reached the finals of 65% of the seasons held over the past six years. And, while Maru already possessed one of the highest win percentages in Code S history at 61% by the end of 2020, the steady departure of viable contenders has ballooned his win rate to the verge of absurdity.
While Maru’s grasp on Code S has gone largely uncontested since 2018, the retirement of TY and Stats in 2021, as well as Rogue in 2022 have only tightened his grip. Maru’s record in Code S since the start of 2022 is an astounding 82-42 (67%) in games and 34-12 (74%) in matches. His closest rival during this period, Dark, is 62-47 (57%) in games and 25-12 (68%) in matches. As it stands, Maru has won over 350 games in Code S—a mark that exceeds his closest competitor by more than 100.
Overall, Maru has won four of the five seasons of Code S held since Rogue departed for the military. And, while some might point to the absence of four time champion as one of the reasons for Maru’s recent success, one can’t ignore that Maru pulled this trick when he won four seasons in a row back in 2018 and 2019. He shattered numerous records along the way—becoming the first player to win two consecutive seasons of Code S since NesTea did so in 2010, before increasing his trophy haul to four within the span of ten months. Maru matched NesTea in other ways, becoming the first player to sweep the finals of Code S since the IM Zerg mauled InCa in 2011. Maru tied soO’s record for the most consecutive final appearances (four) and broke Mvp’s record of three Code S titles. Season by season Maru climbed the ladder of the greatest players to ever participate in the competition, with each trophy drastically altering his career. His first victory was long overdue for someone of his talent. His second was the start of something special. His third put him level with Mvp and his fourth was his ascension to a tier all his own.
Then again, it doesn’t feel like it did over a half decade ago. Maru’s first four titles were something out of an epic tale. He wasn’t just defeating his peers, he was grappling fate, logic and the weight of history into submission. His fifth title, the G5L, felt similarly profound—the realization of a collective dream a dozen years in the making.
Nowadays, Maru’s wins border on deflating. Maru was never truly threatened in the most recent season of Code S. Even Cure and herO, the opponents against whom Maru faced off in the semifinals and finals respectively, only managed to steal one game between them. After that Maru took the stage and kissed the Code S trophy amid a shower of confetti for the eighth time. Simply put, he has transformed wonderment into inevitability.
I needed something to break up this massive block of text and this fits the bill
Regardless of what some might insist, the majority of the best players in the world still hail from South Korea. These aren’t the “glory days” where 15 of the 16 qualifiers for the 2015 WCS Global Finals were Korean, Code S awarded over 100,000 dollars and weekenders were a feeding ground for Koreans traveling abroad. That era is gone, but Code S is littered with talented players and all time greats. In fact, while the last three “World Championship” quality events (IEM Katowice 2023, 2024 and Gamers8 2023) were won by foreigners, Koreans took up five of the eight quarterfinal spots and, by and large, outperformed their foreign opposition in the group stage. Serral, Reynor and Clem have illustrated they can compete and defeat top tier Korean pros, but the rest of the foreign scene struggles mightily with players like SHIN, ByuN or Classic—all of whom have had limited success in Code S over the past few years.
Code S may not have as many competitors or the depth of talent it once had, but the results of Group B (and the impending Group of Death consisting of Cure, Stats, Dark and Rogue) prove that every victory, even those in the opening round, are hard fought and well deserved. Ten different players have reached the semifinals of Code S dating back to the first season of 2023. Maru and Cure managed to make it on three occasions but, outside of that, only GuMiho and Dark logged more than one appearance—with ByuN, Bunny, Classic, Solar, herO and Stats settling for a single trip.
The honest truth is there isn’t a progamer in Korea capable of reliably defeating Maru at the moment. herO denied Maru the G5L only two years ago, but Maru’s 4-1 victory in the finals of the most recent season of Code S further illustrated the gulf between him and second best. There isn’t a Protoss in Korea who can rival herO, but even he is nothing more than fodder—at least in Code S.
There is always a note of resignation when Maru wins Code S, but even the harshest critic has to admit his brilliance is undeniable. How many times have we watched Maru’s opponents shatter his economy, reset his tank count or get ahead on bases only for them to flail helplessly once Maru starts to work his magic? There is perhaps no better example of the discrepancy between Maru and his peers than Cure. Maru’s former teammate has been the second best Korean Terran since TY retired, but the two of them could never be confused for one another. Maru 5-0 record against Cure in offline Best of 5+ over the past four years is evidence enough. But when you take into account the fact that Maru’s chances of beating Cure in Best of 3 (70%) rises to an even more daunting 78% in a seven game series, it’s clear as day that Cure needs everything to break his way if he wants to win Code S—including dodging Maru.
The same goes for Dark, who Aligulac gives a 37% chance of beating Maru in a Best of 7. This pattern also applies to herO, whose 4-1 defeat in Code S (which happens 15% of the time according to Aligulac) lines up nicely with Maru’s 56% chance of victory. For once, the eye test lines up with the math. Maru looks, feels, and is the favorite in every match he plays.
All of this begs a question—if Maru’s triumphs in Code S feel so insubstantial, how do subsequent victories affect his legacy and his position as one of the greatest of all time? There is an argument to be made that future titles are simply gratuitous. How much does it matter if Maru retires with nine, 10 or 19 Code S titles? He has already long since claimed dominion over the event and, by extension, Korean StarCraft II.
Alternatively, the fact that Maru outpaces his closest competitor (Rogue) by a full four Code S titles while simultaneously retaining his position as the most likely player to win the event going forward means each Championship has an exponential effect on his legacy rather than a linear one. After all, if Maru retired with twelve Code S titles while everyone else was left languishing with four or less, how could that not further Maru’s case? As much as some seek mitigating factors such as the lack of top tier talent, the relative dearth of competitive players compared to the past or the fact that many players’ pursuit of Maru was effectively ended prematurely by military service, Maru is the one winning Code S at a never before imagined rate—not Dark, not Cure and not herO. It’s Maru that continues to add to his unmatched trophy collection with each passing season.
At the end of the day, Code S hasn’t changed all that much. The format has shifted and the prize money has decreased, but navigating the gauntlet that is Code S is as challenging a prospect as any that exists in the game today. The fact that Maru has won the event so often and with such apparent ease is a testament to his greatness and the continued significance of Code S.
It’s tempting to say that the most prestigious event in StarCraft II is no longer about who qualifies or how balanced the game is at the time. That it’s not about who catches fire or who devises the most effective strategy. There are moments where it certainly seems that if Maru executes as he should and avoids some grave mistake along the way, that this Season of Code S is destined to become his for the ninth time. Fortunately, we only have to wait until June 27th to get our answer. Then we can start asking the same questions all over again.
I feel like rating another Maru victory in Code S is as difficult as rating a Premier Serral trophy.
I think those accomplishments will only be truly measured if, after one or two decades of a stable prize pool in the regions, as well of a stable number of pro players active... We need a controled and stable enviroment for comparisons...
SCII has gone under way too many changes in its 14 years of existence - of which i have no complaints, cus they generate discussions and kinda create interesting varying stories.
On May 13 2024 09:07 goldensail wrote: I want to divide this thread into 2 parts:
Part 1) GSL The fact that Korean returnees (from military service) like herO are still dominating says a lot about the former level of competitiveness of KR players - herO wasn't even the best Protoss before! So Maru's 4-peat in GSL '18/'19 back when Inno, Rogue, Dark, SOS, Stats, TY, Classic were all still at their prime, is the most impressive accomplishment of any SC2 player IMO.
Regarding the current scene: 1. Let's remember the most recent GSL showing by Reynor isn't his first attempt, nor his second, but his third - and he has never gone past round 1. 2. Personally I cannot take Maxpax seriously until he shows up offline or at least turns his cam on. What if he's looking at a real time cast during online play? I'm not accusing him of doing so, there's no evidence that this happens, but I don't understand why everyone else has to abide by a very reasonable rule and he doesn't? 3. Clem has moments of brilliance, but hasn't been stable enough e.g. he lost 0-3 to Firefly recently in WTL and it's not like he wasn't trying judging from how he looked on cam. 4. Olivera gave Maru a black eye in Kato '23 which is often used against the latter, but let's not forget he also beat Reynor and herO that day. Let's see if he can find his occasional magic in the upcoming Stars War event on his home court, but otherwise he's usually a RO8 player and not more.
In summary, with the exception of Serral, RoWstill doesn't compare to Korea. If we have an international offline event today without regional quota, is it not reasonable to see 10~11 KR, 4~5 EU, and 1 Asian players making RO16? GSL, even in its current state, is still far more than "just another regional locked event".
Part 2) Maru 1. The international premier events that Maru participated in but didn't win (championship-wise) are basically all held in Europe/US, and home court/time zone is definitely an advantage for local players. Maru seemed more comfortable at WESGs for example, where the time difference is only 1 hr (between China and Korea). 2) Maru is notorious for trying different openings that often put him behind in the early game but then claws his way back. To me this makes watching his games more exciting (and scary). It also says something about his confidence i.e. he can goof and win anyway. 3) Maru has openly talked about his injuries since at least '21, and I can definitely see him slowing down with wear and tear. Injuries can be expected to affect micro-heavy Terrans very significantly and it must be frustrating. For him to still win title after title is testament to his skill - I mean the guy had a large patch on his shoulder during the most recent GSL finals and he dominated anyway. 2 Kato finals in a row is a dissappointment only for Maru - it would be an accomplishment for basically anyone else.
It's not my intention to diss anyone to pump Maru in this thread, but to celebrate the truly legendary SC2 player that he is. I don't mind one bit that he win another GSL, although I hope he perserves his arm well for a global event of the highest prize pool which he certainly deserves to win.
can't disagree with anything in this post.
it is true that the competition in Code S has been on a decline for a while now, but it is still above the foreign scene. i do my best to watch both ASL and GSL and I can't help but feel like BW continues to evolve while SC2 devolves. i just can't get excited about watching GSL anymore.
one last note about international events/travel. IIRC Reynor was in korea for several weeks practicing and laddering for this Code-S. I don't believe that most foreign SC2 players get more than a few days to adjust and for anyone that hasn't traveled to/from China, KR, JP, SEA, etc. you don't understand how rough it is compared to NA-EU travel.
On May 12 2024 02:19 Mizenhauer wrote: GOAT Addendum: Maru and the perception of Code S
With Code S fully underway, we find ourselves in an increasingly familiar situation. Maru, fresh off claiming his eighth Code S title, has already advanced to the Round of 8, and looks poised to win the tournament for a ninth time.
Maru’s position as the undisputed best player in South Korea is far from surprising. Every truly great player leaves behind a legacy and Maru’s will inevitably be tied to his complete dominance of the most prestigious competition in StarCraft II history. Four titles ahead of the closest contender, Maru is the unquestioned king of Code S. But, given how absolute his reign has been, his success begs questions. One of which is, how do we evaluate Maru’s future success in a competition in which he has lapped the field time and again?
While some might quibble about the current level of competition, Code S remains the gold standard when it comes to individual competition. There are events with larger prize pools and stiffer competition, but none can best Code S when it comes to historical significance and name value. Fourteen years ago, in the nascent days of Wings of Liberty, Mvp, NesTea and MC built their reputation on Code S titles. INnoVation, Zest and Rain continued that tradition—defying the odds by winning seasons of Code S where two thirds of the participants were viable championship contenders. Stats and Rogue added their names to the ledgers in Legacy of the Void and, even now, with an inarguably diminished scene, winning Code S secures you an indelible place in StarCraft II history. TY and Dark may have only won the competition twice, but those triumphs rank among the greatest accomplishments of their decorated careers.
Maru earned his first Korean Individual League trophy in 2013, before doubling his trophy haul during Season 1 of SSL two years later. But, it wasn’t until 2018 that he finally captured the Code S title which had eluded him for eight years.
He followed that up by winning the next three seasons, as well—instantly catapulting himself ahead of Mvp (who had held the record for most championships since 2011). Six years removed from his fourth title, Maru is the undisputed master of Code S. He has won eight of the 17 Seasons held from 2018 onwards. With another three second place finishes to his name, Maru has reached the finals of 65% of the seasons held over the past six years. And, while Maru already possessed one of the highest win percentages in Code S history at 61% by the end of 2020, the steady departure of viable contenders has ballooned his win rate to the verge of absurdity.
While Maru’s grasp on Code S has gone largely uncontested since 2018, the retirement of TY and Stats in 2021, as well as Rogue in 2022 have only tightened his grip. Maru’s record in Code S since the start of 2022 is an astounding 82-42 (67%) in games and 34-12 (74%) in matches. His closest rival during this period, Dark, is 62-47 (57%) in games and 25-12 (68%) in matches. As it stands, Maru has won over 350 games in Code S—a mark that exceeds his closest competitor by more than 100.
Overall, Maru has won four of the five seasons of Code S held since Rogue departed for the military. And, while some might point to the absence of four time champion as one of the reasons for Maru’s recent success, one can’t ignore that Maru pulled this trick when he won four seasons in a row back in 2018 and 2019. He shattered numerous records along the way—becoming the first player to win two consecutive seasons of Code S since NesTea did so in 2010, before increasing his trophy haul to four within the span of ten months. Maru matched NesTea in other ways, becoming the first player to sweep the finals of Code S since the IM Zerg mauled InCa in 2011. Maru tied soO’s record for the most consecutive final appearances (four) and broke Mvp’s record of three Code S titles. Season by season Maru climbed the ladder of the greatest players to ever participate in the competition, with each trophy drastically altering his career. His first victory was long overdue for someone of his talent. His second was the start of something special. His third put him level with Mvp and his fourth was his ascension to a tier all his own.
Then again, it doesn’t feel like it did over a half decade ago. Maru’s first four titles were something out of an epic tale. He wasn’t just defeating his peers, he was grappling fate, logic and the weight of history into submission. His fifth title, the G5L, felt similarly profound—the realization of a collective dream a dozen years in the making.
Nowadays, Maru’s wins border on deflating. Maru was never truly threatened in the most recent season of Code S. Even Cure and herO, the opponents against whom Maru faced off in the semifinals and finals respectively, only managed to steal one game between them. After that Maru took the stage and kissed the Code S trophy amid a shower of confetti for the eighth time. Simply put, he has transformed wonderment into inevitability.
I needed something to break up this massive block of text and this fits the bill
Regardless of what some might insist, the majority of the best players in the world still hail from South Korea. These aren’t the “glory days” where 15 of the 16 qualifiers for the 2015 WCS Global Finals were Korean, Code S awarded over 100,000 dollars and weekenders were a feeding ground for Koreans traveling abroad. That era is gone, but Code S is littered with talented players and all time greats. In fact, while the last three “World Championship” quality events (IEM Katowice 2023, 2024 and Gamers8 2023) were won by foreigners, Koreans took up five of the eight quarterfinal spots and, by and large, outperformed their foreign opposition in the group stage. Serral, Reynor and Clem have illustrated they can compete and defeat top tier Korean pros, but the rest of the foreign scene struggles mightily with players like SHIN, ByuN or Classic—all of whom have had limited success in Code S over the past few years.
Code S may not have as many competitors or the depth of talent it once had, but the results of Group B (and the impending Group of Death consisting of Cure, Stats, Dark and Rogue) prove that every victory, even those in the opening round, are hard fought and well deserved. Ten different players have reached the semifinals of Code S dating back to the first season of 2023. Maru and Cure managed to make it on three occasions but, outside of that, only GuMiho and Dark logged more than one appearance—with ByuN, Bunny, Classic, Solar, herO and Stats settling for a single trip.
The honest truth is there isn’t a progamer in Korea capable of reliably defeating Maru at the moment. herO denied Maru the G5L only two years ago, but Maru’s 4-1 victory in the finals of the most recent season of Code S further illustrated the gulf between him and second best. There isn’t a Protoss in Korea who can rival herO, but even he is nothing more than fodder—at least in Code S.
There is always a note of resignation when Maru wins Code S, but even the harshest critic has to admit his brilliance is undeniable. How many times have we watched Maru’s opponents shatter his economy, reset his tank count or get ahead on bases only for them to flail helplessly once Maru starts to work his magic? There is perhaps no better example of the discrepancy between Maru and his peers than Cure. Maru’s former teammate has been the second best Korean Terran since TY retired, but the two of them could never be confused for one another. Maru 5-0 record against Cure in offline Best of 5+ over the past four years is evidence enough. But when you take into account the fact that Maru’s chances of beating Cure in Best of 3 (70%) rises to an even more daunting 78% in a seven game series, it’s clear as day that Cure needs everything to break his way if he wants to win Code S—including dodging Maru.
The same goes for Dark, who Aligulac gives a 37% chance of beating Maru in a Best of 7. This pattern also applies to herO, whose 4-1 defeat in Code S (which happens 15% of the time according to Aligulac) lines up nicely with Maru’s 56% chance of victory. For once, the eye test lines up with the math. Maru looks, feels, and is the favorite in every match he plays.
All of this begs a question—if Maru’s triumphs in Code S feel so insubstantial, how do subsequent victories affect his legacy and his position as one of the greatest of all time? There is an argument to be made that future titles are simply gratuitous. How much does it matter if Maru retires with nine, 10 or 19 Code S titles? He has already long since claimed dominion over the event and, by extension, Korean StarCraft II.
Alternatively, the fact that Maru outpaces his closest competitor (Rogue) by a full four Code S titles while simultaneously retaining his position as the most likely player to win the event going forward means each Championship has an exponential effect on his legacy rather than a linear one. After all, if Maru retired with twelve Code S titles while everyone else was left languishing with four or less, how could that not further Maru’s case? As much as some seek mitigating factors such as the lack of top tier talent, the relative dearth of competitive players compared to the past or the fact that many players’ pursuit of Maru was effectively ended prematurely by military service, Maru is the one winning Code S at a never before imagined rate—not Dark, not Cure and not herO. It’s Maru that continues to add to his unmatched trophy collection with each passing season.
At the end of the day, Code S hasn’t changed all that much. The format has shifted and the prize money has decreased, but navigating the gauntlet that is Code S is as challenging a prospect as any that exists in the game today. The fact that Maru has won the event so often and with such apparent ease is a testament to his greatness and the continued significance of Code S.
It’s tempting to say that the most prestigious event in StarCraft II is no longer about who qualifies or how balanced the game is at the time. That it’s not about who catches fire or who devises the most effective strategy. There are moments where it certainly seems that if Maru executes as he should and avoids some grave mistake along the way, that this Season of Code S is destined to become his for the ninth time. Fortunately, we only have to wait until June 27th to get our answer. Then we can start asking the same questions all over again.
I feel like rating another Maru victory in Code S is as difficult as rating a Premier Serral trophy.
I think those accomplishments will only be truly measured if, after one or two decades of a stable prize pool in the regions, as well of a stable number of pro players active... We need a controled and stable enviroment for comparisons...
SCII has gone under way too many changes in its 14 years of existence - of which i have no complaints, cus they generate discussions and kinda create interesting varying stories.
Some mod edit this so that the article is spoilered. This is such an eyesore.
On May 13 2024 09:07 goldensail wrote: I want to divide this thread into 2 parts:
Part 1) GSL The fact that Korean returnees (from military service) like herO are still dominating says a lot about the former level of competitiveness of KR players - herO wasn't even the best Protoss before! So Maru's 4-peat in GSL '18/'19 back when Inno, Rogue, Dark, SOS, Stats, TY, Classic were all still at their prime, is the most impressive accomplishment of any SC2 player IMO.
Regarding the current scene: 1. Let's remember the most recent GSL showing by Reynor isn't his first attempt, nor his second, but his third - and he has never gone past round 1. 2. Personally I cannot take Maxpax seriously until he shows up offline or at least turns his cam on. What if he's looking at a real time cast during online play? I'm not accusing him of doing so, there's no evidence that this happens, but I don't understand why everyone else has to abide by a very reasonable rule and he doesn't? 3. Clem has moments of brilliance, but hasn't been stable enough e.g. he lost 0-3 to Firefly recently in WTL and it's not like he wasn't trying judging from how he looked on cam. 4. Olivera gave Maru a black eye in Kato '23 which is often used against the latter, but let's not forget he also beat Reynor and herO that day. Let's see if he can find his occasional magic in the upcoming Stars War event on his home court, but otherwise he's usually a RO8 player and not more.
In summary, with the exception of Serral, RoWstill doesn't compare to Korea. If we have an international offline event today without regional quota, is it not reasonable to see 10~11 KR, 4~5 EU, and 1 Asian players making RO16? GSL, even in its current state, is still far more than "just another regional locked event".
Part 2) Maru 1. The international premier events that Maru participated in but didn't win (championship-wise) are basically all held in Europe/US, and home court/time zone is definitely an advantage for local players. Maru seemed more comfortable at WESGs for example, where the time difference is only 1 hr (between China and Korea). 2) Maru is notorious for trying different openings that often put him behind in the early game but then claws his way back. To me this makes watching his games more exciting (and scary). It also says something about his confidence i.e. he can goof and win anyway. 3) Maru has openly talked about his injuries since at least '21, and I can definitely see him slowing down with wear and tear. Injuries can be expected to affect micro-heavy Terrans very significantly and it must be frustrating. For him to still win title after title is testament to his skill - I mean the guy had a large patch on his shoulder during the most recent GSL finals and he dominated anyway. 2 Kato finals in a row is a dissappointment only for Maru - it would be an accomplishment for basically anyone else.
It's not my intention to diss anyone to pump Maru in this thread, but to celebrate the truly legendary SC2 player that he is. I don't mind one bit that he win another GSL, although I hope he perserves his arm well for a global event of the highest prize pool which he certainly deserves to win.
Interesting post.
I'll push back a bit on the home turf stuff though. If we are to remove Maru from the equation for a second, I don't think there is a case that there are any strong "home turf" advantage in SC2. Apart from a couple of cases (Thorzain winning in Stockholm for example), There isn't anything telling us that Europeans do better in Europe, Americans and Canadians better in NA events, and Chinese/Koreans better in Korea. We've had Koreans who seemed to play better abroad (MMA, TaeJa, Solar, sOs...), and even some foreigners who produced their career best in Korea (Elazer, Scarlett, Jinro, arguably Neeb).
We can say that Maru, in particular, has problems in foreign events, but not really that it's harder for Koreans to win foreign events. Certain players play better in certain formats/conditions/environments, but I don't think there's necessarily one that necessarily favors players from one region above another.
I would argue, for example, that Inno never had a problem with abroad tournaments, but he did have a big problem playing big matches in front of big crowds, which mostly happened outside of Korea. You could reasonably pose a similar hypothesis about Maru, who only ever won his initial OSL in front of a bigger crowd.
On May 13 2024 09:07 goldensail wrote: I want to divide this thread into 2 parts:
Part 1) GSL The fact that Korean returnees (from military service) like herO are still dominating says a lot about the former level of competitiveness of KR players - herO wasn't even the best Protoss before! So Maru's 4-peat in GSL '18/'19 back when Inno, Rogue, Dark, SOS, Stats, TY, Classic were all still at their prime, is the most impressive accomplishment of any SC2 player IMO.
Regarding the current scene: 1. Let's remember the most recent GSL showing by Reynor isn't his first attempt, nor his second, but his third - and he has never gone past round 1. 2. Personally I cannot take Maxpax seriously until he shows up offline or at least turns his cam on. What if he's looking at a real time cast during online play? I'm not accusing him of doing so, there's no evidence that this happens, but I don't understand why everyone else has to abide by a very reasonable rule and he doesn't? 3. Clem has moments of brilliance, but hasn't been stable enough e.g. he lost 0-3 to Firefly recently in WTL and it's not like he wasn't trying judging from how he looked on cam. 4. Olivera gave Maru a black eye in Kato '23 which is often used against the latter, but let's not forget he also beat Reynor and herO that day. Let's see if he can find his occasional magic in the upcoming Stars War event on his home court, but otherwise he's usually a RO8 player and not more.
In summary, with the exception of Serral, RoWstill doesn't compare to Korea. If we have an international offline event today without regional quota, is it not reasonable to see 10~11 KR, 4~5 EU, and 1 Asian players making RO16? GSL, even in its current state, is still far more than "just another regional locked event".
Part 2) Maru 1. The international premier events that Maru participated in but didn't win (championship-wise) are basically all held in Europe/US, and home court/time zone is definitely an advantage for local players. Maru seemed more comfortable at WESGs for example, where the time difference is only 1 hr (between China and Korea). 2) Maru is notorious for trying different openings that often put him behind in the early game but then claws his way back. To me this makes watching his games more exciting (and scary). It also says something about his confidence i.e. he can goof and win anyway. 3) Maru has openly talked about his injuries since at least '21, and I can definitely see him slowing down with wear and tear. Injuries can be expected to affect micro-heavy Terrans very significantly and it must be frustrating. For him to still win title after title is testament to his skill - I mean the guy had a large patch on his shoulder during the most recent GSL finals and he dominated anyway. 2 Kato finals in a row is a dissappointment only for Maru - it would be an accomplishment for basically anyone else.
It's not my intention to diss anyone to pump Maru in this thread, but to celebrate the truly legendary SC2 player that he is. I don't mind one bit that he win another GSL, although I hope he perserves his arm well for a global event of the highest prize pool which he certainly deserves to win.
Interesting post.
I'll push back a bit on the home turf stuff though. If we are to remove Maru from the equation for a second, I don't think there is a case that there are any strong "home turf" advantage in SC2. Apart from a couple of cases (Thorzain winning in Stockholm for example), There isn't anything telling us that Europeans do better in Europe, Americans and Canadians better in NA events, and Chinese/Koreans better in Korea. We've had Koreans who seemed to play better abroad (MMA, TaeJa, Solar, sOs...), and even some foreigners who produced their career best in Korea (Elazer, Scarlett, Jinro, arguably Neeb).
We can say that Maru, in particular, has problems in foreign events, but not really that it's harder for Koreans to win foreign events. Certain players play better in certain formats/conditions/environments, but I don't think there's necessarily one that necessarily favors players from one region above another.
I would argue, for example, that Inno never had a problem with abroad tournaments, but he did have a big problem playing big matches in front of big crowds, which mostly happened outside of Korea. You could reasonably pose a similar hypothesis about Maru, who only ever won his initial OSL in front of a bigger crowd.
I think you're onto something when you mentioned the effect of large crowds on Maru. In old days many major events construct private booths to allow players to better focus. Today no longer so. I believe Maru mentioned the oohs and ahs of the audience during Kato '23 final did affect his nerves. Maru also tend to do very well in online events where he plays from the comfort of his own home. Another peculiarity is he likes to take his shoes off while playing and he does that even in GSL (perhaps because it's more culturally acceptable there?). But in international events he doesn't from what I've seen.
Many of us have experienced jetlag disrupting sleep cycles, the impact varies by person and by occasion. For foreign players in GSL, they tend to have settled for a period of time so it matters less, but in EU/US weekenders I imagine the effect is more pronounced. Since I haven't collected the data I acknowledge this is a hypothesis. If we had more offline events in Asia we would be better able to assess - let's see how the European players do in the upcoming Stars War in China.
Flighttime from Seoul to Dallas and Paris to Dallas are almost the same (12 vs. 10), yet Clem won ESL Dallas. The flight to Riyad is only 5-6h from Rome and 11h from Seoul, which of course is a big difference, but it is still not a particularly short flight. Yet Reynor won Gamers8. Helsinki to Seoul are almost 12h, yet Serral won GSL vs. the World (twice I believe?). Interestingly, the flighttime from Seoul and Helsinki towards Anaheim (BlizzCon) is almost identical, talking about like 10min difference. So Serral was equally as jetlagged as every korean who won the tournament before and afterwards. And of course we don't have to talk about the countless koreans who won all sorts of tournaments across the world. There is also the case of the last BlizzCon finals, when Blizzard had the grandious idea to do the Group Stage in Korea...so basically every European had to fly 12h to Korea and then 12h to Anaheim in the span of a week. Still Serral and Reynor made it to the Top 8, Reynor even reaching the Finals (please note: Not saying that particular affected the outcome of the tournament aka. Dark winning).
So I would say it is fair to assume that if this affect Marus performance, it is a Maru-Problem, not a Korean-Problem. Or maybe it really isn't about the jetlag at all, but just a question of audience. Does anyone remember how the audience-situation was at WESG?
I am a Maru fanboy and I do not buy the jetlag excuse or audience, its not like Maru struggled and got stomped out of the tournament or something. He lost to a player who performed better, except for the time he choked to Oliveira, but still have a deep run at those tournament. Yes, you can say he hasnt won an international event outside of Asia, but that doesnt mean he has a performance issue, hes still EASILY the most accomplished Terran during these last couple years. I believe the issue has always been within Maru and his choice of opening, he either die or get massively behind in those important first couple minutes of the game, and he need to FIX it himself.
I’m not sure how long he’s been suffering with them, but Maru himself said it’s not really an issue of travelling or being uncomfortable, just that his body struggles to aid him in keeping up peak form with more high-stakes games crammed into a shorter period of time.
On May 14 2024 11:24 tigera6 wrote: I am a Maru fanboy and I do not buy the jetlag excuse or audience, its not like Maru struggled and got stomped out of the tournament or something. He lost to a player who performed better, except for the time he choked to Oliveira, but still have a deep run at those tournament. Yes, you can say he hasnt won an international event outside of Asia, but that doesnt mean he has a performance issue, hes still EASILY the most accomplished Terran during these last couple years. I believe the issue has always been within Maru and his choice of opening, he either die or get massively behind in those important first couple minutes of the game, and he need to FIX it himself.
He didn’t choke vs Oliveira. Nor did herO and Reynor. The problem was not the pressure that Maru was feeling, the problem was that Oliveira was riding his momentum so high that nobody could beat him that day.
It has nothing to do with choking (which is basically failing to perform as expected under pressure), Maru played decently well, it was not a catastrophic performance per se.
Similarly, Serral didn’t choke vs RagnaroK that tournament, his ZvZ practice was just subpar.
Maru won like 9 games out of 10 in practice game vs Oliveira prior to Katowice. That’s sweet, but if Oliveira maintains his best form for 4 games he can win a bo7. There was no player capable of stopping Oliveira that day.
Playing the exact same opening 3 games in a row against heavy counter build, resulting into 3 straight lost to a less skilled opponent is a "choke" in my book. If Maru was to play those games out properly, I would say he had a great shot at winning. And I do not use that word a lot, even when Maru suffered worse lost to Rogue, herO and recently Serral, I believe those were just him being outplayed by stronger opponent.
On May 14 2024 11:24 tigera6 wrote: I am a Maru fanboy and I do not buy the jetlag excuse or audience, its not like Maru struggled and got stomped out of the tournament or something. He lost to a player who performed better, except for the time he choked to Oliveira, but still have a deep run at those tournament. Yes, you can say he hasnt won an international event outside of Asia, but that doesnt mean he has a performance issue, hes still EASILY the most accomplished Terran during these last couple years. I believe the issue has always been within Maru and his choice of opening, he either die or get massively behind in those important first couple minutes of the game, and he need to FIX it himself.
He didn’t choke vs Oliveira. Nor did herO and Reynor. The problem was not the pressure that Maru was feeling, the problem was that Oliveira was riding his momentum so high that nobody could beat him that day.
It has nothing to do with choking (which is basically failing to perform as expected under pressure), Maru played decently well, it was not a catastrophic performance per se.
Similarly, Serral didn’t choke vs RagnaroK that tournament, his ZvZ practice was just subpar.
Maru won like 9 games out of 10 in practice game vs Oliveira prior to Katowice. That’s sweet, but if Oliveira maintains his best form for 4 games he can win a bo7. There was no player capable of stopping Oliveira that day.
I have a different opinion - while Oliveira was playing like he has never played before (he was down 0-2 to Reynor and somehow turned it around to reverse sweep 3:2), I actually did think Maru was playing badly that day. His micro and multi-tasking was not on point, and he made many questionable choices. Anyone can have a bad day, and that was perhaps Maru's worst day. As fate would have it, he collided with Oliveira on the latter's best day. Weeks later he beat Oliveira 4:0 in PiG Fest. I love Maru, and he usually looks as cool as a cucumber after a win/loss, but I sometimes wonder if there's an unseen fragility beneath that calm.
On May 14 2024 11:24 tigera6 wrote: I am a Maru fanboy and I do not buy the jetlag excuse or audience, its not like Maru struggled and got stomped out of the tournament or something. He lost to a player who performed better, except for the time he choked to Oliveira, but still have a deep run at those tournament. Yes, you can say he hasnt won an international event outside of Asia, but that doesnt mean he has a performance issue, hes still EASILY the most accomplished Terran during these last couple years. I believe the issue has always been within Maru and his choice of opening, he either die or get massively behind in those important first couple minutes of the game, and he need to FIX it himself.
He didn’t choke vs Oliveira. Nor did herO and Reynor. The problem was not the pressure that Maru was feeling, the problem was that Oliveira was riding his momentum so high that nobody could beat him that day.
It has nothing to do with choking (which is basically failing to perform as expected under pressure), Maru played decently well, it was not a catastrophic performance per se.
Similarly, Serral didn’t choke vs RagnaroK that tournament, his ZvZ practice was just subpar.
Maru won like 9 games out of 10 in practice game vs Oliveira prior to Katowice. That’s sweet, but if Oliveira maintains his best form for 4 games he can win a bo7. There was no player capable of stopping Oliveira that day.
I have a different opinion - while Oliveira was playing like he has never played before (he was down 0-2 to Reynor and somehow turned it around to reverse sweep 3:2), I actually did think Maru was playing badly that day. His micro and multi-tasking was not on point, and he made many questionable choices. Anyone can have a bad day, and that was perhaps Maru's worst day. As fate would have it, he collided with Oliveira on the latter's best day. Weeks later he beat Oliveira 4:0 in PiG Fest. I love Maru, and he usually looks as cool as a cucumber after a win/loss, but I sometimes wonder if there's an unseen fragility beneath that calm.
I mean it's pretty well known by players and fans (afaik) that Maru is incredibly gifted but incredibly insecure about his own abilities. That's why it's so cool to be a fan of Maru, the guy has been given outwordly capabilities for Starcraft, yet he keeps doubting himself over and over again. However, with hard work and dedication, he managed to overcome his fears and finally won 4 code S in a row (an impossible achievement back then). That's pretty damn inspiring to me: everyone is telling you that you are gifted, because they see the potential in you, but you still have to put in the hours anyways, and learn how to overcome your weaknesses to make your strengths shine.
On May 14 2024 04:00 BluemoonSC wrote: one last note about international events/travel. IIRC Reynor was in korea for several weeks practicing and laddering for this Code-S. I don't believe that most foreign SC2 players get more than a few days to adjust and for anyone that hasn't traveled to/from China, KR, JP, SEA, etc. you don't understand how rough it is compared to NA-EU travel.
This bit literally makes no sense. Your location says socal. Travelling from LA to Germany for a tournament is almost the same thing as travelling from EU to Korea.
Difference between LA -> EU = +9 Difference between EU -> KR = +7 or +8 depending time of year.
Very comparable. Even flight times are roughly the same.
I will agree with you that travelling forward in time, so going east is more difficult, but that might just be my personal thing that going to bed a few hours earlier is a lot harder than going to bed a few hours later.
On May 12 2024 04:19 kennytennyson2 wrote: My simple issue with Maru is that he lacks a World Championship, whether that be Blizzcon or IEM Katowice (when it was chosen to be the World Championships)
Your problem with Maru is he lacks a world championship?
Maru has came second place in the world championships or close it it several times, and he has won countless code S and been competitive in that tournament for almost if not a decade.
Serral has won the world championship and 0 code S has not even competed in one.
You cannot compare the two Maru is in a league of his own
Answer to the quote above Maru is in a league of his own in terms of code S / longevity, but Serral is in the GOAT conversation now that he has 3 World Championships and has been the most feared foreign player since 2018 (or one of the most feared).
The problem is exactly the point of the topic: Serral won't ever participate in code S (and code S is becoming less and less prestigious / financially interesting, so only the true warriors like Reynor or the usual foreigners + some newcomers commit to participate in it, huge props to him / them for trying it out). On the other hand, Maru has no reason NOT to participate in code S, but his problem is that he is too good so he is the favorite every time he enters the tournament. At this point, winning code S is expected and anything but 1st place is a disappointment, since he is on paper the best KR player by far nowadays.
Personal opinion as a starcraft 2 fan / follower of the scene since WoL:
I personally think Maru should keep competing in code S for the money (his legacy in the tournament is already done), and try to win the tournament in Saudi Arabia not for the "WC" prestige, but rather just because it's a lot of money.
On the other hand, someone like Reynor needs to win code S for his legacy, so it's useful for him to try to win it. As for the money, lamborghini ain't cheap so he should keep winning the big $ tournaments as well.
For Serral though, his legacy is done too like Maru, so he should just farm money in the big tournaments he is allowed to enter I guess.
Foreigners who should try Code S would be Clem and HeroMarine, Clem because it would be useful for him on the international stage, and HeroMarine because he has a real shot at winning it given his intellect at figuring other players out. His mechanics ain't as good as Clem, but they are good enough to beat any player in the world if his plan is thought out enough.
I know you won't admit serral is way much better than Maru and you would still think Maru is better than serral even if he loses 0-4 0-3 and 0-3 OVER AND OVER AGAIN, you just need to accept that, Serral keeps winning more and more tournaments where Maru also participates and Maru hasn't won ANY tournament where serral also participate, since IEM 2022, which is over 2 years :-). You can still keep arguing Maru is better, the more you argue the more clownish you are.
On May 14 2024 04:00 BluemoonSC wrote: one last note about international events/travel. IIRC Reynor was in korea for several weeks practicing and laddering for this Code-S. I don't believe that most foreign SC2 players get more than a few days to adjust and for anyone that hasn't traveled to/from China, KR, JP, SEA, etc. you don't understand how rough it is compared to NA-EU travel.
This bit literally makes no sense. Your location says socal. Travelling from LA to Germany for a tournament is almost the same thing as travelling from EU to Korea.
Difference between LA -> EU = +9 Difference between EU -> KR = +7 or +8 depending time of year.
Very comparable. Even flight times are roughly the same.
I will agree with you that travelling forward in time, so going east is more difficult, but that might just be my personal thing that going to bed a few hours earlier is a lot harder than going to bed a few hours later.
that is not how jetlag and the human body works.
12 pm in dallas, 7pm in paris, and 2am in seoul. in the US, your circadian rhythm tells you to be awake if you're in NA from EU and asleep from seoul
12pm paris would be 7pm seoul, so around finals time, coming from Seoul your body is telling you to get ready for bed. e: idk why i included this, anyone in EU wouldn't be running on jetlag so it's moot
it's not as straight forward as "same number of hours = equal jetlag"
On May 12 2024 10:25 Pandain wrote: Thank you for writing this thoughtful article. It's made me reflect even more on a topic that's bugged me for like a year now, which is why exactly Maru's many GSL wins just don't quite seem as impactful as he continues to rack them up.
I now realize the answer is pretty much the opposite of a lot of what you write above. It's not that his constant wins just makes us numb to that extent, but rather GSL Code S has simply put not been the most "prestigious" or "gold standard" tournament for a while, certainly not with the prize pool deflation and honestly not since ~2019.
It used to be any player who won Code S was the best player in the world. For the most part, people would agree that at least at that point and time, you were the undisputed best player in the world. That in itself was a momentous achievement, and that's what earned you an immortal place in SC2 history.
And as a fan, if you wanted to be sure to see the highest level of play possible, you would turn into GSL Code S. And you could be pretty certain there was no tournament that was going to have a higher level of play than what you were watching at that time.
None of that is true anymore. Yes, Koreans writ large are way better than foreigners writ large. But it's undisputed that the absolute best foreigners are killers. Koreans have not won a single premier international offline event since 2022 DH Atlanta. Even right now, if you asked me for the top five players in the world, foreigners are going to be three of them (Serral, Clem, Maxpax). You honestly could even argue that Serral/Clem/Maxpax are each stronger than Maru overall (Maxpax is the more questionable one but it's more than plausible), meaning that even when Maru won the last GSL he could still only be the fourth best player in the world.
When Maru (or Solar, or whoever) wins a GSL now, it doesn't mean much beyond that they won a very difficult tournament. And maybe it means they are the best Korean at that point. That's awesome. But it no longer means they are the best in the world.
When you want to see the absolute highest level of play, it's going to be at a premier international event. And if you want to know who is really the absolute best player in the world, it's also going to be at a premier international event. GSL no longer is that tournament.
Hard disagree. In fact, the only reason Maxpax is ranked above Reynor is probably because he got crushed so hard in GSL. I agree it was sad, but clearly there's a grain of truth to the idea that GSL is a different kind of beast than weekenders. Players prep differently and being good at a weekender is a different skillset than being good at the GSL, and to some extent, those skills translate to team leagues where you also only have to focus on killing a single opponent such as pro league or the group stages of WTL. Both herO and Gumiho clearly prepared, not to play against a Zerg, but to play against Reynor. Now I obviously don't know if Reynor lost because of being unaccustomed to that kind of prep, but I think between the preparation and the live studio environment, GSL is different from most weekenders.
Consider it like other sports: tennis pros who excel in solo play don't necessarily excel in doubles, and vice versa. Running 100m sprint vs running a marathon are entirely and completely different disciplines despite both being, fundamentally, about running a specific distance as fast as possible. Maybe GSL and weekender tournaments are just as different as those kind of things, but eSports in general is just new enough that we don't know, and expect that someone who excels at preparation tournaments (marathons) to also excel at weekenders (sprints) and vice versa. GSL is definitely still the premier prep tournament.
On May 18 2024 06:10 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: Rule number 1 in this forum: never ask today's 'GOATS' what achievement they had when Kespa team houses existed.
Maru beaten Innovation in his peak form with one of the fastest BO7 ever. Just ask any Inno fan out there, they remember
No one is denying Maru's greatness in Korea. Winning more GSL will only help his case against almost everyone else in the history. It's only a problem when you are talking about the comparison to Serral. Because the entire roster of GSL, including Maru himself, has been dominated by Serral on international stage for years. If I want to be mean, I could even say GSL at this point is a group therapy session for players that can't beat Serral.
In theory, a player like Serral shouldn't even exist. A more competitive environment should logically produce better players. Imagine a European country with no NBA players defeats team USA on basketball most of the time they meet on international stage. It's not even small sample size, they play each other dozens of times every year and team USA lost 80% of the time. In this case, what's the point of talking about glorious rich history of NBA itself anymore? You can argue about small rule difference or 3 point line distance all you want, but the skill gap is obvious and hard to deny.
It doesn't make sense, but that's what we have now. You can talk about Maru's greatness in GSL all you want, but it doesn't mean much when you keep getting swept by Serral.
On May 18 2024 06:10 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: Rule number 1 in this forum: never ask today's 'GOATS' what achievement they had when Kespa team houses existed.
Maru beaten Innovation in his peak form with one of the fastest BO7 ever. Just ask any Inno fan out there, they remember
You are picking the wrong player to fight.
Guess what's the series record between innovation and prime Maru in 2017-2019?
On May 19 2024 20:21 Nasigil1 wrote: No one is denying Maru's greatness in Korea. Winning more GSL will only help his case against almost everyone else in the history. It's only a problem when you are talking about the comparison to Serral. Because the entire roster of GSL, including Maru himself, has been dominated by Serral on international stage for years. If I want to be mean, I could even say GSL at this point is a group therapy session for players that can't beat Serral.
In theory, a player like Serral shouldn't even exist. A more competitive environment should logically produce better players. Imagine a European country with no NBA players defeats team USA on basketball most of the time they meet on international stage. It's not even small sample size, they play each other dozens of times every year and team USA lost 80% of the time. In this case, what's the point of talking about glorious rich history of NBA itself anymore? You can argue about small rule difference or 3 point line distance all you want, but the skill gap is obvious and hard to deny.
It doesn't make sense, but that's what we have now. You can talk about Maru's greatness in GSL all you want, but it doesn't mean much when you keep getting swept by Serral.
I understand your logic.
My problem has been balance. When Maru uses ravens effectively, it gets nerfed. When Serral uses infestors effectively, it stays the way it is. I've talked about balance enough that I don't want to repeat myself anymore, but I've gone from being puzzled to being suspicious that there's a conscious effort to keep Zerg advantaged, whatever the motive might be. The recent patch to boost PvT while saying TvZ is fine is laughable IMO. Hell they can't even resist the urge to increase fungal range when it's more obvious than ever that it's OP!
So bottomline is you're looking at pure results, whereas I'm saying the results are skewed. I don't expect everyone to agree, but at least you guys can understand where I'm coming from. We can agree to disagree.
On May 18 2024 06:10 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: Rule number 1 in this forum: never ask today's 'GOATS' what achievement they had when Kespa team houses existed.
Maru beaten Innovation in his peak form with one of the fastest BO7 ever. Just ask any Inno fan out there, they remember
You are picking the wrong player to fight.
Guess what's the series record between innovation and prime Maru in 2017-2019?
Innovation 7-0 Maru in series, 14-4 in maps.
Fun fact, Maru's TvT was considered his weakest matchup earlier on in his career, although he had pretty much always been considered one of the strongest Terrans.
"...prime Maru in 2017-2019" is misleading: 1. '17 wasn't a great year for Maru at all 2. Maru didn't play Inno in his miracle year '18 3. Maru had a slump in '19 from GSL S2 - you might remember he got knocked out in RO32 and didn't have much to show for the rest of the year
From '20 on Maru had a significant advantage over Inno.
If we rewind time to end of '17, sure, Inno would have had a strong claim to the GOAT title and Maru would not. But it would be unfair to say Maru had no achievement until that point. That statement belongs to someone else in the GOAT list.
On May 19 2024 20:21 Nasigil1 wrote: No one is denying Maru's greatness in Korea. Winning more GSL will only help his case against almost everyone else in the history. It's only a problem when you are talking about the comparison to Serral. Because the entire roster of GSL, including Maru himself, has been dominated by Serral on international stage for years. If I want to be mean, I could even say GSL at this point is a group therapy session for players that can't beat Serral.
In theory, a player like Serral shouldn't even exist. A more competitive environment should logically produce better players. Imagine a European country with no NBA players defeats team USA on basketball most of the time they meet on international stage. It's not even small sample size, they play each other dozens of times every year and team USA lost 80% of the time. In this case, what's the point of talking about glorious rich history of NBA itself anymore? You can argue about small rule difference or 3 point line distance all you want, but the skill gap is obvious and hard to deny.
It doesn't make sense, but that's what we have now. You can talk about Maru's greatness in GSL all you want, but it doesn't mean much when you keep getting swept by Serral.
I understand your logic.
My problem has been balance. When Maru uses ravens effectively, it gets nerfed. When Serral uses infestors effectively, it stays the way it is. I've talked about balance enough that I don't want to repeat myself anymore, but I've gone from being puzzled to being suspicious that there's a conscious effort to keep Zerg advantaged, whatever the motive might be. The recent patch to boost PvT while saying TvZ is fine is laughable IMO. Hell they can't even resist the urge to increase fungal range when it's more obvious than ever that it's OP!
So bottomline is you're looking at pure results, whereas I'm saying the results are skewed. I don't expect everyone to agree, but at least you guys can understand where I'm coming from. We can agree to disagree.
Infestors got nerfed pretty quickly after Katowice after Serral showcased very potent use of the burrow/fungal combo. And Zerg in general has had pretty impactful nerfs in the recent past.
I realise the Terran martyr complex remains perpetually in vogue but can we at least be accurate about it?
Blizz’s team should absolutely be criticised for the WoL/HoTS mistakes they made in not nerfing infestors sooner at the nadir of the BL/Infestor era, but on the flipside retooling mass raven play, or reaper spam were good calls.
I mean it may have been more ‘fair’ in terms of treating Zerg and Terran more equally, but worse for the game overall and I know what I’d take in that trade.
On May 19 2024 20:21 Nasigil1 wrote: No one is denying Maru's greatness in Korea. Winning more GSL will only help his case against almost everyone else in the history. It's only a problem when you are talking about the comparison to Serral. Because the entire roster of GSL, including Maru himself, has been dominated by Serral on international stage for years. If I want to be mean, I could even say GSL at this point is a group therapy session for players that can't beat Serral.
In theory, a player like Serral shouldn't even exist. A more competitive environment should logically produce better players. Imagine a European country with no NBA players defeats team USA on basketball most of the time they meet on international stage. It's not even small sample size, they play each other dozens of times every year and team USA lost 80% of the time. In this case, what's the point of talking about glorious rich history of NBA itself anymore? You can argue about small rule difference or 3 point line distance all you want, but the skill gap is obvious and hard to deny.
It doesn't make sense, but that's what we have now. You can talk about Maru's greatness in GSL all you want, but it doesn't mean much when you keep getting swept by Serral.
I understand your logic.
My problem has been balance. When Maru uses ravens effectively, it gets nerfed. When Serral uses infestors effectively, it stays the way it is. I've talked about balance enough that I don't want to repeat myself anymore, but I've gone from being puzzled to being suspicious that there's a conscious effort to keep Zerg advantaged, whatever the motive might be. The recent patch to boost PvT while saying TvZ is fine is laughable IMO. Hell they can't even resist the urge to increase fungal range when it's more obvious than ever that it's OP!
So bottomline is you're looking at pure results, whereas I'm saying the results are skewed. I don't expect everyone to agree, but at least you guys can understand where I'm coming from. We can agree to disagree.
Infestors got nerfed pretty quickly after Katowice after Serral showcased very potent use of the burrow/fungal combo. And Zerg in general has had pretty impactful nerfs in the recent past.
I realise the Terran martyr complex remains perpetually in vogue but can we at least be accurate about it?
Blizz’s team should absolutely be criticised for the WoL/HoTS mistakes they made in not nerfing infestors sooner at the nadir of the BL/Infestor era, but on the flipside retooling mass raven play, or reaper spam were good calls.
I mean it may have been more ‘fair’ in terms of treating Zerg and Terran more equally, but worse for the game overall and I know what I’d take in that trade.
Infestors got nerfed and buffed at the same time and the buff is probably the more impactful one (plus 1 range vs slightly easier to see while moving burrowed)
My problem has been balance. When Maru uses ravens effectively, it gets nerfed. When Serral uses infestors effectively, it stays the way it is. I've talked about balance enough that I don't want to repeat myself anymore, but I've gone from being puzzled to being suspicious that there's a conscious effort to keep Zerg advantaged, whatever the motive might be. The recent patch to boost PvT while saying TvZ is fine is laughable IMO. Hell they can't even resist the urge to increase fungal range when it's more obvious than ever that it's OP!
How should Dark feel then? Everything he plays gets a default nerf. Mass broodling wave -out off game, early Ravange - nerf ... Even Serral got special nerf, a Roach nerf for zvz and an infestor nerf. Will maru mass raven nerf? didn't every terran take advantage of that? same with ghost... still not changed.
My problem has been balance. When Maru uses ravens effectively, it gets nerfed. When Serral uses infestors effectively, it stays the way it is. I've talked about balance enough that I don't want to repeat myself anymore, but I've gone from being puzzled to being suspicious that there's a conscious effort to keep Zerg advantaged, whatever the motive might be. The recent patch to boost PvT while saying TvZ is fine is laughable IMO. Hell they can't even resist the urge to increase fungal range when it's more obvious than ever that it's OP!
How should Dark feel then? Everything he plays gets a default nerf. Mass broodling wave -out off game, early Ravange - nerf ... Even Serral got special nerf, a Roach nerf for zvz and an infestor nerf. Will maru mass raven nerf? didn't every terran take advantage of that? same with ghost... still not changed.
what? Do you not read patch notes? Ghosts have been nerfhammered like 4 times. And in the two tournaments that led to Ravens getting nerfed (GSL and WESG) Maru was the only terran in the ro8 both times. And those were straight nerfs, not a nerf compensated by a buff, like most Zerg 'nerfs'
On May 18 2024 06:10 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: Rule number 1 in this forum: never ask today's 'GOATS' what achievement they had when Kespa team houses existed.
This has been mentioned plenty of times.
Since the Korean team league structure collapsed, the standard of competition has dropped off a cliff. Players did not dominate season after season back when the Korean team leagues existed. Several players rose up to win GSL only to drop off just as quickly. Maru's G5L was such a landmark achievement precisely because it was so difficult for someone to achieve that many GSL wins prior to Maru managing to do so, but even that happened after the Korean team league structure collapsed.
Even qualifying for GSL consistently was difficult back then. For example, look at the winners of the NesTea Award, given to players who manage to qualify for Code S ten times in a row. Only four players managed to do this before the Korean team league structure fell apart in 2016. Fifteen players have done so since. It's not difficult to join the dots.
Serral's achievements are impressive, but they've all come during a period where there's a lower standard of competition. People can choose to ignore this if they want - "you can only beat what's put in front of you" - but I personally think it's an important factor to consider.
On May 19 2024 20:21 Nasigil1 wrote: No one is denying Maru's greatness in Korea. Winning more GSL will only help his case against almost everyone else in the history. It's only a problem when you are talking about the comparison to Serral. Because the entire roster of GSL, including Maru himself, has been dominated by Serral on international stage for years. If I want to be mean, I could even say GSL at this point is a group therapy session for players that can't beat Serral.
In theory, a player like Serral shouldn't even exist. A more competitive environment should logically produce better players. Imagine a European country with no NBA players defeats team USA on basketball most of the time they meet on international stage. It's not even small sample size, they play each other dozens of times every year and team USA lost 80% of the time. In this case, what's the point of talking about glorious rich history of NBA itself anymore? You can argue about small rule difference or 3 point line distance all you want, but the skill gap is obvious and hard to deny.
It doesn't make sense, but that's what we have now. You can talk about Maru's greatness in GSL all you want, but it doesn't mean much when you keep getting swept by Serral.
I've talked about balance enough that I don't want to repeat myself anymore, but I've gone from being puzzled to being suspicious that there's a conscious effort to keep Zerg advantaged, whatever the motive might be. [...] Hell they can't even resist the urge to increase fungal range when it's more obvious than ever that it's OP!
Wait, are you an actual believer in the reality of the Zerg cabal? Like, do you unironically "suspect" there is an ominous "they" with the inexplicable desire to "keep Zerg advantaged"?
This is hilarious. If so, how do you reconcile it with the fact that Serral is as much of an outlier among Zerg players as he is among the general player basis? No other currently active zerg, not Reynor, not Dark, not Solar, comes even close to Serral in terms of results. The most interesting thing that has happened to Zerg since Serral has commenced his military service is Reynor bombing out of GSL. Also, how do you reconcile it with the fact that the magical infestor, a unit you believe "it's more obvious than ever that it's OP", barely has any out-of-the-ordinary, let alone "overpowered" impact in any game not played by Serral?
Wait, are you an actual believer in the reality of the Zerg cabal? Like, do you unironically "suspect" there is an ominous "they" with the inexplicable desire to "keep Zerg advantaged"?
This is hilarious. If so, how do you reconcile it with the fact that Serral is as much of an outlier among Zerg players as he is among the general player basis? No other currently active zerg, not Reynor, not Dark, not Solar, comes even close to Serral in terms of results. The most interesting thing that has happened to Zerg since Serral has commenced his military service is Reynor bombing out of GSL. Also, how do you reconcile it with the fact that the magical infestor, a unit you believe "it's more obvious than ever that it's OP", barely has any out-of-the-ordinary, let alone "overpowered" impact in any game not played by Serral?
It's a fact that Serral is far less dominant vZ compared to vT/vP.
The point that Serral uses infestors more effectively than other Zergs does not contradict the point that infestors are OP. Btw watch this www.youtube.com
I won't waste my breath on this any more than the above. You will believe what you want to believe.
On May 19 2024 20:21 Nasigil1 wrote: No one is denying Maru's greatness in Korea. Winning more GSL will only help his case against almost everyone else in the history. It's only a problem when you are talking about the comparison to Serral. Because the entire roster of GSL, including Maru himself, has been dominated by Serral on international stage for years. If I want to be mean, I could even say GSL at this point is a group therapy session for players that can't beat Serral.
In theory, a player like Serral shouldn't even exist. A more competitive environment should logically produce better players. Imagine a European country with no NBA players defeats team USA on basketball most of the time they meet on international stage. It's not even small sample size, they play each other dozens of times every year and team USA lost 80% of the time. In this case, what's the point of talking about glorious rich history of NBA itself anymore? You can argue about small rule difference or 3 point line distance all you want, but the skill gap is obvious and hard to deny.
It doesn't make sense, but that's what we have now. You can talk about Maru's greatness in GSL all you want, but it doesn't mean much when you keep getting swept by Serral.
I've talked about balance enough that I don't want to repeat myself anymore, but I've gone from being puzzled to being suspicious that there's a conscious effort to keep Zerg advantaged, whatever the motive might be. [...] Hell they can't even resist the urge to increase fungal range when it's more obvious than ever that it's OP!
Wait, are you an actual believer in the reality of the Zerg cabal? Like, do you unironically "suspect" there is an ominous "they" with the inexplicable desire to "keep Zerg advantaged"?
This is hilarious. If so, how do you reconcile it with the fact that Serral is as much of an outlier among Zerg players as he is among the general player basis? No other currently active zerg, not Reynor, not Dark, not Solar, comes even close to Serral in terms of results. The most interesting thing that has happened to Zerg since Serral has commenced his military service is Reynor bombing out of GSL. Also, how do you reconcile it with the fact that the magical infestor, a unit you believe "it's more obvious than ever that it's OP", barely has any out-of-the-ordinary, let alone "overpowered" impact in any game not played by Serral?
Serral being an outlier among Zerg is only a relatively recent thing for the last ~1.5 years. From 2018-2022 there was almost always another Zerg doing as well or in some time frames even better than him and the obvious truth is that the majority of big events he won during that 5 year period would have still been won by another Zerg even if he didn't win it. It's only 2023 forward where he's started winning stuff that would have been won by T/P if he wasn't around.
As for the cabal thing i think certain community members who have been very important in terms of balance decisions honestly believed that Serral (and Reynor at certain points) were just so far and away the best in the world that Zerg results were justified. It wasn't a conspiracy but their actual belief. This naturally led to Zerg not getting deserved nerfs as fast as they should have and pretty much always getting some type of compensatory buff anytime they did get an actual nerf.
On May 19 2024 20:21 Nasigil1 wrote: No one is denying Maru's greatness in Korea. Winning more GSL will only help his case against almost everyone else in the history. It's only a problem when you are talking about the comparison to Serral. Because the entire roster of GSL, including Maru himself, has been dominated by Serral on international stage for years. If I want to be mean, I could even say GSL at this point is a group therapy session for players that can't beat Serral.
In theory, a player like Serral shouldn't even exist. A more competitive environment should logically produce better players. Imagine a European country with no NBA players defeats team USA on basketball most of the time they meet on international stage. It's not even small sample size, they play each other dozens of times every year and team USA lost 80% of the time. In this case, what's the point of talking about glorious rich history of NBA itself anymore? You can argue about small rule difference or 3 point line distance all you want, but the skill gap is obvious and hard to deny.
It doesn't make sense, but that's what we have now. You can talk about Maru's greatness in GSL all you want, but it doesn't mean much when you keep getting swept by Serral.
I've talked about balance enough that I don't want to repeat myself anymore, but I've gone from being puzzled to being suspicious that there's a conscious effort to keep Zerg advantaged, whatever the motive might be. [...] Hell they can't even resist the urge to increase fungal range when it's more obvious than ever that it's OP!
Wait, are you an actual believer in the reality of the Zerg cabal? Like, do you unironically "suspect" there is an ominous "they" with the inexplicable desire to "keep Zerg advantaged"?
This is hilarious. If so, how do you reconcile it with the fact that Serral is as much of an outlier among Zerg players as he is among the general player basis? No other currently active zerg, not Reynor, not Dark, not Solar, comes even close to Serral in terms of results. The most interesting thing that has happened to Zerg since Serral has commenced his military service is Reynor bombing out of GSL. Also, how do you reconcile it with the fact that the magical infestor, a unit you believe "it's more obvious than ever that it's OP", barely has any out-of-the-ordinary, let alone "overpowered" impact in any game not played by Serral?
Serral being an outlier among Zerg is only a relatively recent thing for the last ~1.5 years. From 2018-2022 there was almost always another Zerg doing as well or in some time frames even better than him and the obvious truth is that the majority of big events he won during that 5 year period would have still been won by another Zerg even if he didn't win it. It's only 2023 forward where he's started winning stuff that would have been won by T/P if he wasn't around.
Imo it's even more recent because in 2023 reynor won g8 and solar gsl
On May 19 2024 20:21 Nasigil1 wrote: No one is denying Maru's greatness in Korea. Winning more GSL will only help his case against almost everyone else in the history. It's only a problem when you are talking about the comparison to Serral. Because the entire roster of GSL, including Maru himself, has been dominated by Serral on international stage for years. If I want to be mean, I could even say GSL at this point is a group therapy session for players that can't beat Serral.
In theory, a player like Serral shouldn't even exist. A more competitive environment should logically produce better players. Imagine a European country with no NBA players defeats team USA on basketball most of the time they meet on international stage. It's not even small sample size, they play each other dozens of times every year and team USA lost 80% of the time. In this case, what's the point of talking about glorious rich history of NBA itself anymore? You can argue about small rule difference or 3 point line distance all you want, but the skill gap is obvious and hard to deny
It doesn't make sense, but that's what we have now. You can talk about Maru's greatness in GSL all you want, but it doesn't mean much when you keep getting swept by Serral.
I've talked about balance enough that I don't want to repeat myself anymore, but I've gone from being puzzled to being suspicious that there's a conscious effort to keep Zerg advantaged, whatever the motive might be. [...] Hell they can't even resist the urge to increase fungal range when it's more obvious than ever that it's OP!
Wait, are you an actual believer in the reality of the Zerg cabal? Like, do you unironically "suspect" there is an ominous "they" with the inexplicable desire to "keep Zerg advantaged"?
This is hilarious. If so, how do you reconcile it with the fact that Serral is as much of an outlier among Zerg players as he is among the general player basis? No other currently active zerg, not Reynor, not Dark, not Solar, comes even close to Serral in terms of results. The most interesting thing that has happened to Zerg since Serral has commenced his military service is Reynor bombing out of GSL. Also, how do you reconcile it with the fact that the magical infestor, a unit you believe "it's more obvious than ever that it's OP", barely has any out-of-the-ordinary, let alone "overpowered" impact in any game not played by Serral?
Serral being an outlier among Zerg is only a relatively recent thing for the last ~1.5 years. From 2018-2022 there was almost always another Zerg doing as well or in some time frames even better than him
The fact that on each particular occasion there may have been, out of the entirety of Zerg players, almost always another one doing as well or at times better than Serral, does not negate the fact that he was an outlier even during this period. To the contrary, it confirms it, because for the statement to even make sense you must grant the premise that out of all Zerg players, Serral has been at the top most consistently, whereas those close to him varied over time or from instance to instance (or, conversely, displayed greater variation in their own results).
On May 19 2024 20:21 Nasigil1 wrote: No one is denying Maru's greatness in Korea. Winning more GSL will only help his case against almost everyone else in the history. It's only a problem when you are talking about the comparison to Serral. Because the entire roster of GSL, including Maru himself, has been dominated by Serral on international stage for years. If I want to be mean, I could even say GSL at this point is a group therapy session for players that can't beat Serral.
In theory, a player like Serral shouldn't even exist. A more competitive environment should logically produce better players. Imagine a European country with no NBA players defeats team USA on basketball most of the time they meet on international stage. It's not even small sample size, they play each other dozens of times every year and team USA lost 80% of the time. In this case, what's the point of talking about glorious rich history of NBA itself anymore? You can argue about small rule difference or 3 point line distance all you want, but the skill gap is obvious and hard to deny
It doesn't make sense, but that's what we have now. You can talk about Maru's greatness in GSL all you want, but it doesn't mean much when you keep getting swept by Serral.
I've talked about balance enough that I don't want to repeat myself anymore, but I've gone from being puzzled to being suspicious that there's a conscious effort to keep Zerg advantaged, whatever the motive might be. [...] Hell they can't even resist the urge to increase fungal range when it's more obvious than ever that it's OP!
Wait, are you an actual believer in the reality of the Zerg cabal? Like, do you unironically "suspect" there is an ominous "they" with the inexplicable desire to "keep Zerg advantaged"?
This is hilarious. If so, how do you reconcile it with the fact that Serral is as much of an outlier among Zerg players as he is among the general player basis? No other currently active zerg, not Reynor, not Dark, not Solar, comes even close to Serral in terms of results. The most interesting thing that has happened to Zerg since Serral has commenced his military service is Reynor bombing out of GSL. Also, how do you reconcile it with the fact that the magical infestor, a unit you believe "it's more obvious than ever that it's OP", barely has any out-of-the-ordinary, let alone "overpowered" impact in any game not played by Serral?
Serral being an outlier among Zerg is only a relatively recent thing for the last ~1.5 years. From 2018-2022 there was almost always another Zerg doing as well or in some time frames even better than him
The fact that on each particular occasion there may have been, out of the entirety of Zerg players, almost always another one doing as well or at times better than Serral, does not negate the fact that he was an outlier even during this period. To the contrary, it confirms it, because for the statement to even make sense you must grant the premise that out of all Zerg players, Serral has been at the top most consistently, whereas those close to him varied over time or from instance to instance (or, conversely, displayed greater variation in their own results).
The Serral fans are coming full force when Maru is dominating, I can't say I am surprised but it is still an enjoyable sight to see them defend zerg OPness over the years in order to hail Serral as a god among men
On May 19 2024 20:21 Nasigil1 wrote: No one is denying Maru's greatness in Korea. Winning more GSL will only help his case against almost everyone else in the history. It's only a problem when you are talking about the comparison to Serral. Because the entire roster of GSL, including Maru himself, has been dominated by Serral on international stage for years. If I want to be mean, I could even say GSL at this point is a group therapy session for players that can't beat Serral.
In theory, a player like Serral shouldn't even exist. A more competitive environment should logically produce better players. Imagine a European country with no NBA players defeats team USA on basketball most of the time they meet on international stage. It's not even small sample size, they play each other dozens of times every year and team USA lost 80% of the time. In this case, what's the point of talking about glorious rich history of NBA itself anymore? You can argue about small rule difference or 3 point line distance all you want, but the skill gap is obvious and hard to deny
It doesn't make sense, but that's what we have now. You can talk about Maru's greatness in GSL all you want, but it doesn't mean much when you keep getting swept by Serral.
I've talked about balance enough that I don't want to repeat myself anymore, but I've gone from being puzzled to being suspicious that there's a conscious effort to keep Zerg advantaged, whatever the motive might be. [...] Hell they can't even resist the urge to increase fungal range when it's more obvious than ever that it's OP!
Wait, are you an actual believer in the reality of the Zerg cabal? Like, do you unironically "suspect" there is an ominous "they" with the inexplicable desire to "keep Zerg advantaged"?
This is hilarious. If so, how do you reconcile it with the fact that Serral is as much of an outlier among Zerg players as he is among the general player basis? No other currently active zerg, not Reynor, not Dark, not Solar, comes even close to Serral in terms of results. The most interesting thing that has happened to Zerg since Serral has commenced his military service is Reynor bombing out of GSL. Also, how do you reconcile it with the fact that the magical infestor, a unit you believe "it's more obvious than ever that it's OP", barely has any out-of-the-ordinary, let alone "overpowered" impact in any game not played by Serral?
Serral being an outlier among Zerg is only a relatively recent thing for the last ~1.5 years. From 2018-2022 there was almost always another Zerg doing as well or in some time frames even better than him
The fact that on each particular occasion there may have been, out of the entirety of Zerg players, almost always another one doing as well or at times better than Serral, does not negate the fact that he was an outlier even during this period. To the contrary, it confirms it, because for the statement to even make sense you must grant the premise that out of all Zerg players, Serral has been at the top most consistently, whereas those close to him varied over time or from instance to instance (or, conversely, displayed greater variation in their own results).
The Serral fans are coming full force when Maru is dominating, I can't say I am surprised but it is still an enjoyable sight to see them defend zerg OPness over the years in order to hail Serral as a god among men
Well, since it takes Serral's absence for Maru to dominate, this is a self-burn more than anything.
On May 19 2024 20:21 Nasigil1 wrote: No one is denying Maru's greatness in Korea. Winning more GSL will only help his case against almost everyone else in the history. It's only a problem when you are talking about the comparison to Serral. Because the entire roster of GSL, including Maru himself, has been dominated by Serral on international stage for years. If I want to be mean, I could even say GSL at this point is a group therapy session for players that can't beat Serral.
In theory, a player like Serral shouldn't even exist. A more competitive environment should logically produce better players. Imagine a European country with no NBA players defeats team USA on basketball most of the time they meet on international stage. It's not even small sample size, they play each other dozens of times every year and team USA lost 80% of the time. In this case, what's the point of talking about glorious rich history of NBA itself anymore? You can argue about small rule difference or 3 point line distance all you want, but the skill gap is obvious and hard to deny
It doesn't make sense, but that's what we have now. You can talk about Maru's greatness in GSL all you want, but it doesn't mean much when you keep getting swept by Serral.
I've talked about balance enough that I don't want to repeat myself anymore, but I've gone from being puzzled to being suspicious that there's a conscious effort to keep Zerg advantaged, whatever the motive might be. [...] Hell they can't even resist the urge to increase fungal range when it's more obvious than ever that it's OP!
Wait, are you an actual believer in the reality of the Zerg cabal? Like, do you unironically "suspect" there is an ominous "they" with the inexplicable desire to "keep Zerg advantaged"?
This is hilarious. If so, how do you reconcile it with the fact that Serral is as much of an outlier among Zerg players as he is among the general player basis? No other currently active zerg, not Reynor, not Dark, not Solar, comes even close to Serral in terms of results. The most interesting thing that has happened to Zerg since Serral has commenced his military service is Reynor bombing out of GSL. Also, how do you reconcile it with the fact that the magical infestor, a unit you believe "it's more obvious than ever that it's OP", barely has any out-of-the-ordinary, let alone "overpowered" impact in any game not played by Serral?
Serral being an outlier among Zerg is only a relatively recent thing for the last ~1.5 years. From 2018-2022 there was almost always another Zerg doing as well or in some time frames even better than him
The fact that on each particular occasion there may have been, out of the entirety of Zerg players, almost always another one doing as well or at times better than Serral, does not negate the fact that he was an outlier even during this period. To the contrary, it confirms it, because for the statement to even make sense you must grant the premise that out of all Zerg players, Serral has been at the top most consistently, whereas those close to him varied over time or from instance to instance (or, conversely, displayed greater variation in their own results).
The Serral fans are coming full force when Maru is dominating, I can't say I am surprised but it is still an enjoyable sight to see them defend zerg OPness over the years in order to hail Serral as a god among men
Well, since it takes Serral's absence for Maru to dominate, this is a self-burn more than anything.
Anyway, it doesn't add anything to the argument.
I didn’t recall Serral coming to the GSL? And there is nothing to add basically, this GOAT debate won’t ever have a definitive answer.
On May 18 2024 06:10 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: Rule number 1 in this forum: never ask today's 'GOATS' what achievement they had when Kespa team houses existed.
This has been mentioned plenty of times.
Since the Korean team league structure collapsed, the standard of competition has dropped off a cliff. Players did not dominate season after season back when the Korean team leagues existed. Several players rose up to win GSL only to drop off just as quickly. Maru's G5L was such a landmark achievement precisely because it was so difficult for someone to achieve that many GSL wins prior to Maru managing to do so, but even that happened after the Korean team league structure collapsed.
Even qualifying for GSL consistently was difficult back then. For example, look at the winners of the NesTea Award, given to players who manage to qualify for Code S ten times in a row. Only four players managed to do this before the Korean team league structure fell apart in 2016. Fifteen players have done so since. It's not difficult to join the dots.
Serral's achievements are impressive, but they've all come during a period where there's a lower standard of competition. People can choose to ignore this if they want - "you can only beat what's put in front of you" - but I personally think it's an important factor to consider.
There are so many things wrong here, but it would take me 30 minutes to properly respond, But, since you have no actual data to support the claims you've made, I'll save myself 29.5 minutes and leave it at that.
On May 18 2024 06:10 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: Rule number 1 in this forum: never ask today's 'GOATS' what achievement they had when Kespa team houses existed.
This has been mentioned plenty of times.
Since the Korean team league structure collapsed, the standard of competition has dropped off a cliff. Players did not dominate season after season back when the Korean team leagues existed. Several players rose up to win GSL only to drop off just as quickly. Maru's G5L was such a landmark achievement precisely because it was so difficult for someone to achieve that many GSL wins prior to Maru managing to do so, but even that happened after the Korean team league structure collapsed.
Even qualifying for GSL consistently was difficult back then. For example, look at the winners of the NesTea Award, given to players who manage to qualify for Code S ten times in a row. Only four players managed to do this before the Korean team league structure fell apart in 2016. Fifteen players have done so since. It's not difficult to join the dots.
Serral's achievements are impressive, but they've all come during a period where there's a lower standard of competition. People can choose to ignore this if they want - "you can only beat what's put in front of you" - but I personally think it's an important factor to consider.
One flipside of this argument is that Korean players are operating under similar conditions to foreign players now, and without having that team house setup advantage that gap has closed considerably.
I don’t think it’s a complete refutation, there are other associated issues that are also impactful. It’s not just the collapse of the previous structure, it’s an underfunding of the current one which contributes to the overall decline.
On May 19 2024 20:21 Nasigil1 wrote: No one is denying Maru's greatness in Korea. Winning more GSL will only help his case against almost everyone else in the history. It's only a problem when you are talking about the comparison to Serral. Because the entire roster of GSL, including Maru himself, has been dominated by Serral on international stage for years. If I want to be mean, I could even say GSL at this point is a group therapy session for players that can't beat Serral.
In theory, a player like Serral shouldn't even exist. A more competitive environment should logically produce better players. Imagine a European country with no NBA players defeats team USA on basketball most of the time they meet on international stage. It's not even small sample size, they play each other dozens of times every year and team USA lost 80% of the time. In this case, what's the point of talking about glorious rich history of NBA itself anymore? You can argue about small rule difference or 3 point line distance all you want, but the skill gap is obvious and hard to deny
It doesn't make sense, but that's what we have now. You can talk about Maru's greatness in GSL all you want, but it doesn't mean much when you keep getting swept by Serral.
I've talked about balance enough that I don't want to repeat myself anymore, but I've gone from being puzzled to being suspicious that there's a conscious effort to keep Zerg advantaged, whatever the motive might be. [...] Hell they can't even resist the urge to increase fungal range when it's more obvious than ever that it's OP!
Wait, are you an actual believer in the reality of the Zerg cabal? Like, do you unironically "suspect" there is an ominous "they" with the inexplicable desire to "keep Zerg advantaged"?
This is hilarious. If so, how do you reconcile it with the fact that Serral is as much of an outlier among Zerg players as he is among the general player basis? No other currently active zerg, not Reynor, not Dark, not Solar, comes even close to Serral in terms of results. The most interesting thing that has happened to Zerg since Serral has commenced his military service is Reynor bombing out of GSL. Also, how do you reconcile it with the fact that the magical infestor, a unit you believe "it's more obvious than ever that it's OP", barely has any out-of-the-ordinary, let alone "overpowered" impact in any game not played by Serral?
Serral being an outlier among Zerg is only a relatively recent thing for the last ~1.5 years. From 2018-2022 there was almost always another Zerg doing as well or in some time frames even better than him
The fact that on each particular occasion there may have been, out of the entirety of Zerg players, almost always another one doing as well or at times better than Serral, does not negate the fact that he was an outlier even during this period. To the contrary, it confirms it, because for the statement to even make sense you must grant the premise that out of all Zerg players, Serral has been at the top most consistently, whereas those close to him varied over time or from instance to instance (or, conversely, displayed greater variation in their own results).
The Serral fans are coming full force when Maru is dominating, I can't say I am surprised but it is still an enjoyable sight to see them defend zerg OPness over the years in order to hail Serral as a god among men
Maru has Dark’s number, in recent years, he lost a big match but he has a winning record against Reynor too. It’s Serral who’s got the big H2H advantage versus Maru (and a winning one against basically today’s entire field)
Even if Zerg has been doing pretty well, which it has, Serral can still be an outlier.
On May 19 2024 20:21 Nasigil1 wrote: No one is denying Maru's greatness in Korea. Winning more GSL will only help his case against almost everyone else in the history. It's only a problem when you are talking about the comparison to Serral. Because the entire roster of GSL, including Maru himself, has been dominated by Serral on international stage for years. If I want to be mean, I could even say GSL at this point is a group therapy session for players that can't beat Serral.
In theory, a player like Serral shouldn't even exist. A more competitive environment should logically produce better players. Imagine a European country with no NBA players defeats team USA on basketball most of the time they meet on international stage. It's not even small sample size, they play each other dozens of times every year and team USA lost 80% of the time. In this case, what's the point of talking about glorious rich history of NBA itself anymore? You can argue about small rule difference or 3 point line distance all you want, but the skill gap is obvious and hard to deny
It doesn't make sense, but that's what we have now. You can talk about Maru's greatness in GSL all you want, but it doesn't mean much when you keep getting swept by Serral.
I've talked about balance enough that I don't want to repeat myself anymore, but I've gone from being puzzled to being suspicious that there's a conscious effort to keep Zerg advantaged, whatever the motive might be. [...] Hell they can't even resist the urge to increase fungal range when it's more obvious than ever that it's OP!
Wait, are you an actual believer in the reality of the Zerg cabal? Like, do you unironically "suspect" there is an ominous "they" with the inexplicable desire to "keep Zerg advantaged"?
This is hilarious. If so, how do you reconcile it with the fact that Serral is as much of an outlier among Zerg players as he is among the general player basis? No other currently active zerg, not Reynor, not Dark, not Solar, comes even close to Serral in terms of results. The most interesting thing that has happened to Zerg since Serral has commenced his military service is Reynor bombing out of GSL. Also, how do you reconcile it with the fact that the magical infestor, a unit you believe "it's more obvious than ever that it's OP", barely has any out-of-the-ordinary, let alone "overpowered" impact in any game not played by Serral?
Serral being an outlier among Zerg is only a relatively recent thing for the last ~1.5 years. From 2018-2022 there was almost always another Zerg doing as well or in some time frames even better than him
The fact that on each particular occasion there may have been, out of the entirety of Zerg players, almost always another one doing as well or at times better than Serral, does not negate the fact that he was an outlier even during this period. To the contrary, it confirms it, because for the statement to even make sense you must grant the premise that out of all Zerg players, Serral has been at the top most consistently, whereas those close to him varied over time or from instance to instance (or, conversely, displayed greater variation in their own results).
The Serral fans are coming full force when Maru is dominating, I can't say I am surprised but it is still an enjoyable sight to see them defend zerg OPness over the years in order to hail Serral as a god among men
Maru has Dark’s number, in recent years, he lost a big match but he has a winning record against Reynor too. It’s Serral who’s got the big H2H advantage versus Maru (and a winning one against basically today’s entire field)
Even if Zerg has been doing pretty well, which it has, Serral can still be an outlier.
Dark is too old and far past his prime, Reynor has been carried in 2019 onwards so the expectations are a bit higher than his real potential, and Rogue has just come back. So I don’t think Serral is that much of an outlier, more like the top KR zergs are past their prime, and Reynor is inconsistent.
On May 19 2024 20:21 Nasigil1 wrote: No one is denying Maru's greatness in Korea. Winning more GSL will only help his case against almost everyone else in the history. It's only a problem when you are talking about the comparison to Serral. Because the entire roster of GSL, including Maru himself, has been dominated by Serral on international stage for years. If I want to be mean, I could even say GSL at this point is a group therapy session for players that can't beat Serral.
In theory, a player like Serral shouldn't even exist. A more competitive environment should logically produce better players. Imagine a European country with no NBA players defeats team USA on basketball most of the time they meet on international stage. It's not even small sample size, they play each other dozens of times every year and team USA lost 80% of the time. In this case, what's the point of talking about glorious rich history of NBA itself anymore? You can argue about small rule difference or 3 point line distance all you want, but the skill gap is obvious and hard to deny
It doesn't make sense, but that's what we have now. You can talk about Maru's greatness in GSL all you want, but it doesn't mean much when you keep getting swept by Serral.
I've talked about balance enough that I don't want to repeat myself anymore, but I've gone from being puzzled to being suspicious that there's a conscious effort to keep Zerg advantaged, whatever the motive might be. [...] Hell they can't even resist the urge to increase fungal range when it's more obvious than ever that it's OP!
Wait, are you an actual believer in the reality of the Zerg cabal? Like, do you unironically "suspect" there is an ominous "they" with the inexplicable desire to "keep Zerg advantaged"?
This is hilarious. If so, how do you reconcile it with the fact that Serral is as much of an outlier among Zerg players as he is among the general player basis? No other currently active zerg, not Reynor, not Dark, not Solar, comes even close to Serral in terms of results. The most interesting thing that has happened to Zerg since Serral has commenced his military service is Reynor bombing out of GSL. Also, how do you reconcile it with the fact that the magical infestor, a unit you believe "it's more obvious than ever that it's OP", barely has any out-of-the-ordinary, let alone "overpowered" impact in any game not played by Serral?
Serral being an outlier among Zerg is only a relatively recent thing for the last ~1.5 years. From 2018-2022 there was almost always another Zerg doing as well or in some time frames even better than him
The fact that on each particular occasion there may have been, out of the entirety of Zerg players, almost always another one doing as well or at times better than Serral, does not negate the fact that he was an outlier even during this period. To the contrary, it confirms it, because for the statement to even make sense you must grant the premise that out of all Zerg players, Serral has been at the top most consistently, whereas those close to him varied over time or from instance to instance (or, conversely, displayed greater variation in their own results).
The Serral fans are coming full force when Maru is dominating, I can't say I am surprised but it is still an enjoyable sight to see them defend zerg OPness over the years in order to hail Serral as a god among men
Maru has Dark’s number, in recent years, he lost a big match but he has a winning record against Reynor too. It’s Serral who’s got the big H2H advantage versus Maru (and a winning one against basically today’s entire field)
Even if Zerg has been doing pretty well, which it has, Serral can still be an outlier.
Maru and Dark are basically perfect 50-50. Even their last 10 series are 5-5. Without doing an indepth tally of all their series by location I'd be pretty confident that Maru does better against him in matches that take place in Korea though which Serral has never had to deal with.
With a few exceptions the discrepancy between Maru vs Reynor and Maru vs Serral is mainly just timing, locations and circumstances of a lot of the matches imo. Serral is definitely more consistent than Reynor but I don't think he's on some completely different level. Especially not comparable to how big the gap between Maru and the 2nd best Terran had typically been since 2018.
Edit to add justification to the second paragraph. If you compare Reynor and Serral's TvZ win rates against all the top Terrans what you consistently find is that Serral is around 10% ahead +- 5% depending on the Terran. This is true for their winrates vs Clem, heromarine, Gumiho, Byun, Inno, Bunny, and Cure. This is a more accurate representation of the skill/consistency gap between them and is based on a much higher sample size vs a large variety of Terran playstyles. The only top Terran that they have super different win rates against is Maru where instead of being a 8-15% gap it's almost a 40% gap which is just absurd. There's no way for style differences to justify that. I think it's pretty clear there's just a sample size issue going on and the win rates would close over time with more games played.
I would be interested in seeing statistics on this since it's impossible to know until you see the data, but I do not think people fully appreciate how much harder it is to win a prep-based tournament like GSL, all things equal. When opponents have time to prep for each other, you'd expect higher variance in the performance of championship-tier players and higher rates of upsets. I remember when Rogue would win a world championship and then immediately bomb out in the Ro32 group stages of GSL and people meme'd on the guy for being lazy or whatever. But what we forget is that it was actually quite common for championship-tier players to bomb out in the group stages, or even fail to qualify, for GSL. That's because really smart players who may be less talented or skilled can gain a significant edge by prepping tailored strategies rather than having to rely on their standard play (which will naturally favor the more skilled player).
By contrast, the weekender tourneys--especially the ones with like with like 6 or 8 person round robin groups or double elimination brackets--smooth the variance quite a bit by giving the edge to the best players who perform reliably well in all match-ups, and are best positioned to recover from an upset or two.
What am I saying and what am I not saying? I am NOT saying that GSL tends to produce champions that are "better" than these weekender tourneys. If anything, Serral, who most would say is the "best" player, is going to be the most likely to win these weekenders because his general ZvP, ZvT, and ZvZ is the best and most stable in the business. And yet the reality is that anyone can have a good weekend and win a weekender...
What I AM saying is that GSL is harder to win, relatively speaking, especially for the best players whose standard play is likely to be countered with tailored, prepped builds. This is why--contrary to the alternative history that Serral fans like to tout--it is not at all obvious that Serral would have won a bunch of GSLs when facing the prep of players like Dark, Classic, Gumiho, Zest, Rogue, Trap, Shin, etc. I remember there was one series where Lambo described how he prepped for and ultimately beat Serral with some very specific mind games and tailored strategies. Perhaps that was a lucky one-off, but GSL is full of super smart players like Lambo who are studying your play for weeks to try to snipe you out of the group stages.
In the GOAT debate, there's a lot of emphasis put on Maru "choking" in these weekender tourneys, but much more interesting is the question of how these weekender tourneys are set up to make it possible for a guy like Oliveira to lose 3 matches on one day, then wake up the next day, play out of his mind, and win a world championship. Soo did the same thing a few years back. And yet this is quite literally not possible to do in GSL. In GSL, you've got to be on your best form for weeks beating players who are watching all your replays and studying your game for any possible weakness.
When you have this context, what Maru has done and continues to do in the GSL is actually kinda insane. I don't agree that this season or any season of GSL is just Maru's for the taking. It's easier to win GSL now than before for sure, but it's still arguably the hardest tournament format to win, and Maru is singular in how easy he makes it look sometimes.
p.s. I actuality think there was a fairly monumental change recently that greatly impacts both the perception and reality of GSL as the most competitive 1v1 tournament in e-sports. And that is....having the semi-finals and finals on the same day. More than any other change, I feel this one undermines GSL as the ultimate "prep"-based tournament, even though it still remains more of a prep-based tourney that any of the others. I have found that it also makes the finals so much less hype than the prior GSLs when you had like a week or sometimes 10 days to build excitement and intrigue towards the finals.
On May 19 2024 20:21 Nasigil1 wrote: No one is denying Maru's greatness in Korea. Winning more GSL will only help his case against almost everyone else in the history. It's only a problem when you are talking about the comparison to Serral. Because the entire roster of GSL, including Maru himself, has been dominated by Serral on international stage for years. If I want to be mean, I could even say GSL at this point is a group therapy session for players that can't beat Serral.
In theory, a player like Serral shouldn't even exist. A more competitive environment should logically produce better players. Imagine a European country with no NBA players defeats team USA on basketball most of the time they meet on international stage. It's not even small sample size, they play each other dozens of times every year and team USA lost 80% of the time. In this case, what's the point of talking about glorious rich history of NBA itself anymore? You can argue about small rule difference or 3 point line distance all you want, but the skill gap is obvious and hard to deny
It doesn't make sense, but that's what we have now. You can talk about Maru's greatness in GSL all you want, but it doesn't mean much when you keep getting swept by Serral.
I've talked about balance enough that I don't want to repeat myself anymore, but I've gone from being puzzled to being suspicious that there's a conscious effort to keep Zerg advantaged, whatever the motive might be. [...] Hell they can't even resist the urge to increase fungal range when it's more obvious than ever that it's OP!
Wait, are you an actual believer in the reality of the Zerg cabal? Like, do you unironically "suspect" there is an ominous "they" with the inexplicable desire to "keep Zerg advantaged"?
This is hilarious. If so, how do you reconcile it with the fact that Serral is as much of an outlier among Zerg players as he is among the general player basis? No other currently active zerg, not Reynor, not Dark, not Solar, comes even close to Serral in terms of results. The most interesting thing that has happened to Zerg since Serral has commenced his military service is Reynor bombing out of GSL. Also, how do you reconcile it with the fact that the magical infestor, a unit you believe "it's more obvious than ever that it's OP", barely has any out-of-the-ordinary, let alone "overpowered" impact in any game not played by Serral?
Serral being an outlier among Zerg is only a relatively recent thing for the last ~1.5 years. From 2018-2022 there was almost always another Zerg doing as well or in some time frames even better than him
The fact that on each particular occasion there may have been, out of the entirety of Zerg players, almost always another one doing as well or at times better than Serral, does not negate the fact that he was an outlier even during this period. To the contrary, it confirms it, because for the statement to even make sense you must grant the premise that out of all Zerg players, Serral has been at the top most consistently, whereas those close to him varied over time or from instance to instance (or, conversely, displayed greater variation in their own results).
The Serral fans are coming full force when Maru is dominating, I can't say I am surprised but it is still an enjoyable sight to see them defend zerg OPness over the years in order to hail Serral as a god among men
Maru has Dark’s number, in recent years, he lost a big match but he has a winning record against Reynor too. It’s Serral who’s got the big H2H advantage versus Maru (and a winning one against basically today’s entire field)
Even if Zerg has been doing pretty well, which it has, Serral can still be an outlier.
Edit to add justification to the second paragraph. If you compare Reynor and Serral's TvZ win rates against all the top Terrans what you consistently find is that Serral is around 10% ahead +- 5% depending on the Terran. This is true for their winrates vs Clem, heromarine, Gumiho, Byun, Inno, Bunny, and Cure. This is a more accurate representation of the skill/consistency gap between them and is based on a much higher sample size vs a large variety of Terran playstyles. The only top Terran that they have super different win rates against is Maru where instead of being a 8-15% gap it's almost a 40% gap which is just absurd. There's no way for style differences to justify that. I think it's pretty clear there's just a sample size issue going on and the win rates would close over time with more games played.
Interesting. I'm wondering about your evaluation.
According to your data, Serral is around 8-15% ahead of Reynor in terms of winrate against each and everyone of the very top terrans. Moreover, against arguably the best terran of all times, he is almost 40% ahead, which indeed is ridiculous. And what is more, one might add that Serral is not just ahead in terms of winrate, he has the best winrate of all Zerg players against most if not all of the top terrans.
And from this data, you conclude that Serral is not a level above Reynor?
For this conclusion to make sense, the listed discrepancies in winrate would need to be the standard discrepancies between players at the same tier. But from all the statistics I know, the discrepancy between Serral's winrates and those of all the other top tier Zerg players is far greater than that between the winrates of those other players. That is, Reynor, Dark, Solar, and so on, are much closer to one another in terms of winrate than they are to Serral.
On May 19 2024 20:21 Nasigil1 wrote: No one is denying Maru's greatness in Korea. Winning more GSL will only help his case against almost everyone else in the history. It's only a problem when you are talking about the comparison to Serral. Because the entire roster of GSL, including Maru himself, has been dominated by Serral on international stage for years. If I want to be mean, I could even say GSL at this point is a group therapy session for players that can't beat Serral.
In theory, a player like Serral shouldn't even exist. A more competitive environment should logically produce better players. Imagine a European country with no NBA players defeats team USA on basketball most of the time they meet on international stage. It's not even small sample size, they play each other dozens of times every year and team USA lost 80% of the time. In this case, what's the point of talking about glorious rich history of NBA itself anymore? You can argue about small rule difference or 3 point line distance all you want, but the skill gap is obvious and hard to deny
It doesn't make sense, but that's what we have now. You can talk about Maru's greatness in GSL all you want, but it doesn't mean much when you keep getting swept by Serral.
I've talked about balance enough that I don't want to repeat myself anymore, but I've gone from being puzzled to being suspicious that there's a conscious effort to keep Zerg advantaged, whatever the motive might be. [...] Hell they can't even resist the urge to increase fungal range when it's more obvious than ever that it's OP!
Wait, are you an actual believer in the reality of the Zerg cabal? Like, do you unironically "suspect" there is an ominous "they" with the inexplicable desire to "keep Zerg advantaged"?
This is hilarious. If so, how do you reconcile it with the fact that Serral is as much of an outlier among Zerg players as he is among the general player basis? No other currently active zerg, not Reynor, not Dark, not Solar, comes even close to Serral in terms of results. The most interesting thing that has happened to Zerg since Serral has commenced his military service is Reynor bombing out of GSL. Also, how do you reconcile it with the fact that the magical infestor, a unit you believe "it's more obvious than ever that it's OP", barely has any out-of-the-ordinary, let alone "overpowered" impact in any game not played by Serral?
Serral being an outlier among Zerg is only a relatively recent thing for the last ~1.5 years. From 2018-2022 there was almost always another Zerg doing as well or in some time frames even better than him
The fact that on each particular occasion there may have been, out of the entirety of Zerg players, almost always another one doing as well or at times better than Serral, does not negate the fact that he was an outlier even during this period. To the contrary, it confirms it, because for the statement to even make sense you must grant the premise that out of all Zerg players, Serral has been at the top most consistently, whereas those close to him varied over time or from instance to instance (or, conversely, displayed greater variation in their own results).
The Serral fans are coming full force when Maru is dominating, I can't say I am surprised but it is still an enjoyable sight to see them defend zerg OPness over the years in order to hail Serral as a god among men
Maru has Dark’s number, in recent years, he lost a big match but he has a winning record against Reynor too. It’s Serral who’s got the big H2H advantage versus Maru (and a winning one against basically today’s entire field)
Even if Zerg has been doing pretty well, which it has, Serral can still be an outlier.
Dark is too old and far past his prime, Reynor has been carried in 2019 onwards so the expectations are a bit higher than his real potential, and Rogue has just come back. So I don’t think Serral is that much of an outlier, more like the top KR zergs are past their prime, and Reynor is inconsistent.
"Serral is no outlier! He is just better than everyone else for a variety of different reasons!"
Honestly, I find some of the claims on this page rather baffling. I do of course agree that everyone will and should draw different conclusions about the GoaT depending on what is taken into account and how the criteria are weighted. This is how it should be.
But if you choose to focus on pure, raw winrates, there is no denying that Serral is an outlier and the #1. This is really the wrong fight to pick.
The irony is, despite how much people claim Serral has dominated Maru in head-to-head which is true, its the other top Zergs that has stopped Maru from getting better result in premiere tournament more so than Serral. Rogue beat him twice in IEM, once in GSL Final, Dark beat him in 2019 Blizzon and 2022 Valencia, Reynor beat him in IEM 2021 and another Grand Final that I dont remember when.
On May 21 2024 11:07 tigera6 wrote: The irony is, despite how much people claim Serral has dominated Maru in head-to-head which is true, its the other top Zergs that has stopper Maru from getting better result in premiere tournament more so than Serral. Rogue beat him twice in IEM, once in GSL Final, Dark beat him in 2019 Blizzon and 2022 Valencia, Reynor beat him in IEM 2021 and another Grand Final that I dont remember when.
Two out of Serral's three World Championship/Kato titles include direct wins over Maru. He not only 4:0'ed him in the Kato 24 finals, he also 3:1'ed him in the semifinals of Kato 22, which for some reason is often forgotten.
p.s. I actuality think there was a fairly monumental change recently that greatly impacts both the perception and reality of GSL as the most competitive 1v1 tournament in e-sports. And that is....having the semi-finals and finals on the same day. More than any other change, I feel this one undermines GSL as the ultimate "prep"-based tournament, even though it still remains more of a prep-based tourney that any of the others. I have found that it also makes the finals so much less hype than the prior GSLs when you had like a week or sometimes 10 days to build excitement and intrigue towards the finals.
Agreed.
I also think having the semi-finals and final on the same day is an advantage for the Zerg, since Terran has to rely more on precise micro/constant multi-tasking and their wrists/overall stamina burn out quicker. It's much easier to A-move lings to backstab than to load up two medivacs, drop units, and then still have to avoid all sorts of static and non-static defenses (which can come quickly to rescue on creep). Often it's these backstabs rather than frontal engagements that win the game. PiG had said a BO7 (compared to BO5) favors Zerg, I believe for the same reason, and he's not exactly a Terran/Maru fan.
On May 21 2024 11:07 tigera6 wrote: The irony is, despite how much people claim Serral has dominated Maru in head-to-head which is true, its the other top Zergs that has stopper Maru from getting better result in premiere tournament more so than Serral. Rogue beat him twice in IEM, once in GSL Final, Dark beat him in 2019 Blizzon and 2022 Valencia, Reynor beat him in IEM 2021 and another Grand Final that I dont remember when.
Two out of Serral's three World Championship/Kato titles include direct wins over Maru. He not only 4:0'ed him in the Kato 24 finals, he also 3:1'ed him in the semifinals of Kato 22, which for some reason is often forgotten.
That is 2 comparing to the 6-7 losses to the other Zergs, Maru would be in a different place had he was able to win half of those matches. Serral was not the main reason Maru didnt have “international success”, Zerg was.
Edit: If you think about it, Zerg being dominant was partly Maru fault because he couldnt take care of them, damn.
Aside from the already mentioned series Rogue also eliminated Maru from a Blizzcon back in hots and a super tournament finals in 2021 and Dark eliminated him from a Katowice in hots as well. Plus Jaedong eliminated him from a Blizzcon. If Zerg was just a tiny smidge weaker at a couple points throughout the life of the game Maru would be the indisputable goat.
On May 21 2024 11:07 tigera6 wrote: The irony is, despite how much people claim Serral has dominated Maru in head-to-head which is true, its the other top Zergs that has stopper Maru from getting better result in premiere tournament more so than Serral. Rogue beat him twice in IEM, once in GSL Final, Dark beat him in 2019 Blizzon and 2022 Valencia, Reynor beat him in IEM 2021 and another Grand Final that I dont remember when.
Two out of Serral's three World Championship/Kato titles include direct wins over Maru. He not only 4:0'ed him in the Kato 24 finals, he also 3:1'ed him in the semifinals of Kato 22, which for some reason is often forgotten.
Don’t worry it’s not forgotten, that gold map was something else in terms of balance and Rogue, Reynor or Serral would have won the tournament. HeroMarine overperformed though, props to him
I often wish we have more data-driven analyses to support arguments from both sides. A guy with the handle "Imdata" tried doing that some time ago to support his argument that Serral is a bigger outlier than Maru, I actually thought it was a good attempt, but unfortunately his data was clearly flawed and I didn't see a follow-up after I pointed out some issues.
If we have a hosted dataset (e.g. participants and results from all Premier/Major events for the last 10 years) in Excel format that we can download and model, I believe we can have more objective discussions.
On May 21 2024 15:23 goldensail wrote: I often wish we have more data-driven analyses to support arguments from both sides. A guy with the handle "Imdata" tried doing that some time ago to support his argument that Serral is a bigger outlier than Maru, I actually thought it was a good attempt, but unfortunately his data was clearly flawed and I didn't see a follow-up after I pointed out some issues.
If we have a hosted dataset (e.g. participants and results from all Premier/Major events for the last 10 years) in Excel format that we can download and model, I believe we can have more objective discussions.
On May 18 2024 06:10 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: Rule number 1 in this forum: never ask today's 'GOATS' what achievement they had when Kespa team houses existed.
This has been mentioned plenty of times.
Since the Korean team league structure collapsed, the standard of competition has dropped off a cliff. Players did not dominate season after season back when the Korean team leagues existed. Several players rose up to win GSL only to drop off just as quickly. Maru's G5L was such a landmark achievement precisely because it was so difficult for someone to achieve that many GSL wins prior to Maru managing to do so, but even that happened after the Korean team league structure collapsed.
Even qualifying for GSL consistently was difficult back then. For example, look at the winners of the NesTea Award, given to players who manage to qualify for Code S ten times in a row. Only four players managed to do this before the Korean team league structure fell apart in 2016. Fifteen players have done so since. It's not difficult to join the dots.
Serral's achievements are impressive, but they've all come during a period where there's a lower standard of competition. People can choose to ignore this if they want - "you can only beat what's put in front of you" - but I personally think it's an important factor to consider.
One flipside of this argument is that Korean players are operating under similar conditions to foreign players now, and without having that team house setup advantage that gap has closed considerably.
I don’t think it’s a complete refutation, there are other associated issues that are also impactful. It’s not just the collapse of the previous structure, it’s an underfunding of the current one which contributes to the overall decline.
The collapse of the Korean team league structure is just a convenient line for me to draw. Regardless of where you choose to draw the line, it remains my opinion that the standard and depth of competition has declined as a result of money leaving the scene, and that this makes Serral's achievements less remarkable than those of other GOAT candidates.
It'll only ever be an opinion though. Amongst his peers, Serral is clearly an outlier, and for some people that is the most important thing. I can't say those people are objectively wrong, it's just a different perspective, and that's what makes the discussion interesting!
On May 18 2024 06:10 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: Rule number 1 in this forum: never ask today's 'GOATS' what achievement they had when Kespa team houses existed.
This has been mentioned plenty of times.
Since the Korean team league structure collapsed, the standard of competition has dropped off a cliff. Players did not dominate season after season back when the Korean team leagues existed. Several players rose up to win GSL only to drop off just as quickly. Maru's G5L was such a landmark achievement precisely because it was so difficult for someone to achieve that many GSL wins prior to Maru managing to do so, but even that happened after the Korean team league structure collapsed.
Even qualifying for GSL consistently was difficult back then. For example, look at the winners of the NesTea Award, given to players who manage to qualify for Code S ten times in a row. Only four players managed to do this before the Korean team league structure fell apart in 2016. Fifteen players have done so since. It's not difficult to join the dots.
Serral's achievements are impressive, but they've all come during a period where there's a lower standard of competition. People can choose to ignore this if they want - "you can only beat what's put in front of you" - but I personally think it's an important factor to consider.
One flipside of this argument is that Korean players are operating under similar conditions to foreign players now, and without having that team house setup advantage that gap has closed considerably.
I don’t think it’s a complete refutation, there are other associated issues that are also impactful. It’s not just the collapse of the previous structure, it’s an underfunding of the current one which contributes to the overall decline.
The collapse of the Korean team league structure is just a convenient line for me to draw. Regardless of where you choose to draw the line, it remains my opinion that the standard and depth of competition has declined as a result of money leaving the scene, and that this makes Serral's achievements less remarkable than those of other GOAT candidates.
It'll only ever be an opinion though. Amongst his peers, Serral is clearly an outlier, and for some people that is the most important thing. I can't say those people are objectively wrong, it's just a different perspective, and that's what makes the discussion interesting!
The same applies for Rogue though, not just Serral. He "only" started winning big when proleague was disbanded, and zerg started to get really strong. Only Maru among the three GOAT candidates was truly a top class player in the fiercest era. Imo Serral has a better case of GOATness than Rogue. As for Maru, as a super fan I am biased so my opinion on the matter isn't very interesting
On May 18 2024 06:10 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: Rule number 1 in this forum: never ask today's 'GOATS' what achievement they had when Kespa team houses existed.
This has been mentioned plenty of times.
Since the Korean team league structure collapsed, the standard of competition has dropped off a cliff. Players did not dominate season after season back when the Korean team leagues existed. Several players rose up to win GSL only to drop off just as quickly. Maru's G5L was such a landmark achievement precisely because it was so difficult for someone to achieve that many GSL wins prior to Maru managing to do so, but even that happened after the Korean team league structure collapsed.
Even qualifying for GSL consistently was difficult back then. For example, look at the winners of the NesTea Award, given to players who manage to qualify for Code S ten times in a row. Only four players managed to do this before the Korean team league structure fell apart in 2016. Fifteen players have done so since. It's not difficult to join the dots.
Serral's achievements are impressive, but they've all come during a period where there's a lower standard of competition. People can choose to ignore this if they want - "you can only beat what's put in front of you" - but I personally think it's an important factor to consider.
One flipside of this argument is that Korean players are operating under similar conditions to foreign players now, and without having that team house setup advantage that gap has closed considerably.
I don’t think it’s a complete refutation, there are other associated issues that are also impactful. It’s not just the collapse of the previous structure, it’s an underfunding of the current one which contributes to the overall decline.
The collapse of the Korean team league structure is just a convenient line for me to draw. Regardless of where you choose to draw the line, it remains my opinion that the standard and depth of competition has declined as a result of money leaving the scene, and that this makes Serral's achievements less remarkable than those of other GOAT candidates.
It'll only ever be an opinion though. Amongst his peers, Serral is clearly an outlier, and for some people that is the most important thing. I can't say those people are objectively wrong, it's just a different perspective, and that's what makes the discussion interesting!
The same applies for Rogue though, not just Serral. He "only" started winning big when proleague was disbanded, and zerg started to get really strong. Only Maru among the three GOAT candidates was truly a top class player in the fiercest era. Imo Serral has a better case of GOATness than Rogue. As for Maru, as a super fan I am biased so my opinion on the matter isn't very interesting
My reasoning applies to anyone who came to prominence after the scene peaked, and to everything anyone achieved after the scene peaked.
If you wanted to describe it statistically, then I suppose the way it works in my head is that every achievement prior to the scene peaking has a 1x multiplier, whereas every achievement after the scene peaked has an ever decreasing multiplier the further away we get from the peak.
But this is just one (very subjective) way of looking at things, and I'm not claiming to be more "correct" than anyone else.
On May 18 2024 06:10 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: Rule number 1 in this forum: never ask today's 'GOATS' what achievement they had when Kespa team houses existed.
This has been mentioned plenty of times.
Since the Korean team league structure collapsed, the standard of competition has dropped off a cliff. Players did not dominate season after season back when the Korean team leagues existed. Several players rose up to win GSL only to drop off just as quickly. Maru's G5L was such a landmark achievement precisely because it was so difficult for someone to achieve that many GSL wins prior to Maru managing to do so, but even that happened after the Korean team league structure collapsed.
Even qualifying for GSL consistently was difficult back then. For example, look at the winners of the NesTea Award, given to players who manage to qualify for Code S ten times in a row. Only four players managed to do this before the Korean team league structure fell apart in 2016. Fifteen players have done so since. It's not difficult to join the dots.
Serral's achievements are impressive, but they've all come during a period where there's a lower standard of competition. People can choose to ignore this if they want - "you can only beat what's put in front of you" - but I personally think it's an important factor to consider.
One flipside of this argument is that Korean players are operating under similar conditions to foreign players now, and without having that team house setup advantage that gap has closed considerably.
I don’t think it’s a complete refutation, there are other associated issues that are also impactful. It’s not just the collapse of the previous structure, it’s an underfunding of the current one which contributes to the overall decline.
The collapse of the Korean team league structure is just a convenient line for me to draw. Regardless of where you choose to draw the line, it remains my opinion that the standard and depth of competition has declined as a result of money leaving the scene, and that this makes Serral's achievements less remarkable than those of other GOAT candidates.
It'll only ever be an opinion though. Amongst his peers, Serral is clearly an outlier, and for some people that is the most important thing. I can't say those people are objectively wrong, it's just a different perspective, and that's what makes the discussion interesting!
The same applies for Rogue though, not just Serral. He "only" started winning big when proleague was disbanded, and zerg started to get really strong. Only Maru among the three GOAT candidates was truly a top class player in the fiercest era. Imo Serral has a better case of GOATness than Rogue. As for Maru, as a super fan I am biased so my opinion on the matter isn't very interesting
My reasoning applies to anyone who came to prominence after the scene peaked, and to everything anyone achieved after the scene peaked.
If you wanted to describe it statistically, then I suppose the way it works in my head is that every achievement prior to the scene peaking has a 1x multiplier, whereas every achievement after the scene peaked has an ever decreasing multiplier the further away we get from the peak.
But this is just one (very subjective) way of looking at things, and I'm not claiming to be more "correct" than anyone else.
But what if there is another competitive peak? I mean, imagine if SA keeps investing into esports, and the new RTS (zerospace / stormgate) are worse than Starcraft 2, so ultimately Microsoft/Blizzard finally cares about sc2 again and invests into it. We could have another competitive peak if some new blood from foreign scene / KR scene plays starcraft instead of fortnite, league of legends or whatever other esports. At which point will your multiplier starts increasing back to 1x then? And at which rate your multiplier decays from the peak, to like now in 2024? Seems like magic numbers to me instead of a carefully thought out process
On May 21 2024 15:23 goldensail wrote: I often wish we have more data-driven analyses to support arguments from both sides. A guy with the handle "Imdata" tried doing that some time ago to support his argument that Serral is a bigger outlier than Maru, I actually thought it was a good attempt, but unfortunately his data was clearly flawed and I didn't see a follow-up after I pointed out some issues.
If we have a hosted dataset (e.g. participants and results from all Premier/Major events for the last 10 years) in Excel format that we can download and model, I believe we can have more objective discussions.
Thank you. I don't know SQL and I'm debating with myself whether I should learn a new tool just so I can argue better on an internet forum about a game
On May 18 2024 06:10 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: Rule number 1 in this forum: never ask today's 'GOATS' what achievement they had when Kespa team houses existed.
This has been mentioned plenty of times.
Since the Korean team league structure collapsed, the standard of competition has dropped off a cliff. Players did not dominate season after season back when the Korean team leagues existed. Several players rose up to win GSL only to drop off just as quickly. Maru's G5L was such a landmark achievement precisely because it was so difficult for someone to achieve that many GSL wins prior to Maru managing to do so, but even that happened after the Korean team league structure collapsed.
Even qualifying for GSL consistently was difficult back then. For example, look at the winners of the NesTea Award, given to players who manage to qualify for Code S ten times in a row. Only four players managed to do this before the Korean team league structure fell apart in 2016. Fifteen players have done so since. It's not difficult to join the dots.
Serral's achievements are impressive, but they've all come during a period where there's a lower standard of competition. People can choose to ignore this if they want - "you can only beat what's put in front of you" - but I personally think it's an important factor to consider.
One flipside of this argument is that Korean players are operating under similar conditions to foreign players now, and without having that team house setup advantage that gap has closed considerably.
I don’t think it’s a complete refutation, there are other associated issues that are also impactful. It’s not just the collapse of the previous structure, it’s an underfunding of the current one which contributes to the overall decline.
The collapse of the Korean team league structure is just a convenient line for me to draw. Regardless of where you choose to draw the line, it remains my opinion that the standard and depth of competition has declined as a result of money leaving the scene, and that this makes Serral's achievements less remarkable than those of other GOAT candidates.
It'll only ever be an opinion though. Amongst his peers, Serral is clearly an outlier, and for some people that is the most important thing. I can't say those people are objectively wrong, it's just a different perspective, and that's what makes the discussion interesting!
The same applies for Rogue though, not just Serral. He "only" started winning big when proleague was disbanded, and zerg started to get really strong. Only Maru among the three GOAT candidates was truly a top class player in the fiercest era. Imo Serral has a better case of GOATness than Rogue. As for Maru, as a super fan I am biased so my opinion on the matter isn't very interesting
My reasoning applies to anyone who came to prominence after the scene peaked, and to everything anyone achieved after the scene peaked.
If you wanted to describe it statistically, then I suppose the way it works in my head is that every achievement prior to the scene peaking has a 1x multiplier, whereas every achievement after the scene peaked has an ever decreasing multiplier the further away we get from the peak.
But this is just one (very subjective) way of looking at things, and I'm not claiming to be more "correct" than anyone else.
But what if there is another competitive peak? I mean, imagine if SA keeps investing into esports, and the new RTS (zerospace / stormgate) are worse than Starcraft 2, so ultimately Microsoft/Blizzard finally cares about sc2 again and invests into it. We could have another competitive peak if some new blood from foreign scene / KR scene plays starcraft instead of fortnite, league of legends or whatever other esports. At which point will your multiplier starts increasing back to 1x then? And at which rate your multiplier decays from the peak, to like now in 2024? Seems like magic numbers to me instead of a carefully thought out process
I don't think that's likely to happen, and I'm not sure how I would feel if it did given the murkiness of Saudi Arabian funding, but I suppose it would have to start trending back towards 1x.
Having said that, it's more of a concept/feeling than a rigid statistical system.
It's not a well thought-out process in the slightest.
On May 21 2024 15:23 goldensail wrote: I often wish we have more data-driven analyses to support arguments from both sides. A guy with the handle "Imdata" tried doing that some time ago to support his argument that Serral is a bigger outlier than Maru, I actually thought it was a good attempt, but unfortunately his data was clearly flawed and I didn't see a follow-up after I pointed out some issues.
If we have a hosted dataset (e.g. participants and results from all Premier/Major events for the last 10 years) in Excel format that we can download and model, I believe we can have more objective discussions.
Thank you. I don't know SQL and I'm debating with myself whether I should learn a new tool just so I can argue better on an internet forum about a game
Again I appreciate it.
I don't think you should learn SQL to do it. I prompted ChatGPT with your request AND the tables description of aligulac database (available on the link), downloaded the aligulac.sql.gz zipped file and the response it gave seems good enough to work, and relatively easy to implement even for a beginner. I will try it once work is finished to see if it gives a good result.
If you want to try to implement it yourself, here is the answer (you would need Python, I choose it because it's the easiest way for me but feel free to ask anything to the chatbot).
To create an Excel dataset containing participants and results from major/premier tournaments over the last 10 years from the aligulac database dump, follow these steps. We'll use Python and assume you can execute these steps in an environment where you have access to PostgreSQL and Python.
### Step 1: Set Up Your Database 1. **Unzip the SQL dump**: If you haven't already, unzip your `aligulac.sql.gz` file. ```bash gzip -d aligulac.sql.gz ```
2. **Create a PostgreSQL database**: ```sql CREATE DATABASE aligulac; ```
3. **Import the SQL dump into PostgreSQL**: ```bash psql -d aligulac -f aligulac.sql ```
### Step 2: Install Required Python Libraries You'll need `pandas` for data manipulation, `sqlalchemy` for database connection, and `openpyxl` to write to Excel. ```bash pip install pandas sqlalchemy openpyxl psycopg2 ```
### Step 3: Python Script to Extract Data and Export to Excel Now, let's write a Python script that connects to the PostgreSQL database, queries the data, and writes it to an Excel file.
```python import pandas as pd from sqlalchemy import create_engine from datetime import datetime, timedelta
# Calculate the date 10 years ago ten_years_ago = datetime.now() - timedelta(days=365*10)
# SQL Query to fetch major/premier tournament results from the last 10 years query = """ SELECT p.tag AS player_tag, p.country, m.date, m.sca, m.scb, m.rca, m.rcb, e.name AS event_name FROM match m JOIN player p ON p.id = m.pla_id JOIN event e ON e.id = m.eventobj_id WHERE m.date >= %s AND e.big = True ORDER BY m.date DESC; """
# Execute the query df = pd.read_sql(query, engine, params={ten_years_ago})
# Export to Excel output_file = 'tournament_results.xlsx' df.to_excel(output_file, index=False, engine='openpyxl')
print(f"Data exported to {output_file}") ```
### Explanation: 1. *atabase Connection**: Adjust the `create_engine` line to match your PostgreSQL username, password, and database details. 2. **SQL Query**: This queries the `match`, `player`, and `event` tables. It joins these tables to fetch player tags, country codes, match dates, scores, races, and event names for matches that occurred in the last ten years in major/premier events (where `big = True`). 3. **Export to Excel**: The script then writes this data to an Excel file using the `pandas` library.
### Step 4: Execute the Script Run the Python script in your environment. This will generate an Excel file named `tournament_results.xlsx` in your current directory containing the dataset you need.
This workflow assumes a functional Python environment with database access. Adjust credentials and connection details as necessary for your setup.
On May 18 2024 06:10 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: Rule number 1 in this forum: never ask today's 'GOATS' what achievement they had when Kespa team houses existed.
This has been mentioned plenty of times.
Since the Korean team league structure collapsed, the standard of competition has dropped off a cliff. Players did not dominate season after season back when the Korean team leagues existed. Several players rose up to win GSL only to drop off just as quickly. Maru's G5L was such a landmark achievement precisely because it was so difficult for someone to achieve that many GSL wins prior to Maru managing to do so, but even that happened after the Korean team league structure collapsed.
Even qualifying for GSL consistently was difficult back then. For example, look at the winners of the NesTea Award, given to players who manage to qualify for Code S ten times in a row. Only four players managed to do this before the Korean team league structure fell apart in 2016. Fifteen players have done so since. It's not difficult to join the dots.
Serral's achievements are impressive, but they've all come during a period where there's a lower standard of competition. People can choose to ignore this if they want - "you can only beat what's put in front of you" - but I personally think it's an important factor to consider.
One flipside of this argument is that Korean players are operating under similar conditions to foreign players now, and without having that team house setup advantage that gap has closed considerably.
I don’t think it’s a complete refutation, there are other associated issues that are also impactful. It’s not just the collapse of the previous structure, it’s an underfunding of the current one which contributes to the overall decline.
The collapse of the Korean team league structure is just a convenient line for me to draw. Regardless of where you choose to draw the line, it remains my opinion that the standard and depth of competition has declined as a result of money leaving the scene, and that this makes Serral's achievements less remarkable than those of other GOAT candidates.
It'll only ever be an opinion though. Amongst his peers, Serral is clearly an outlier, and for some people that is the most important thing. I can't say those people are objectively wrong, it's just a different perspective, and that's what makes the discussion interesting!
The same applies for Rogue though, not just Serral. He "only" started winning big when proleague was disbanded, and zerg started to get really strong. Only Maru among the three GOAT candidates was truly a top class player in the fiercest era. Imo Serral has a better case of GOATness than Rogue. As for Maru, as a super fan I am biased so my opinion on the matter isn't very interesting
My reasoning applies to anyone who came to prominence after the scene peaked, and to everything anyone achieved after the scene peaked.
If you wanted to describe it statistically, then I suppose the way it works in my head is that every achievement prior to the scene peaking has a 1x multiplier, whereas every achievement after the scene peaked has an ever decreasing multiplier the further away we get from the peak.
But this is just one (very subjective) way of looking at things, and I'm not claiming to be more "correct" than anyone else.
But what if there is another competitive peak? I mean, imagine if SA keeps investing into esports, and the new RTS (zerospace / stormgate) are worse than Starcraft 2, so ultimately Microsoft/Blizzard finally cares about sc2 again and invests into it. We could have another competitive peak if some new blood from foreign scene / KR scene plays starcraft instead of fortnite, league of legends or whatever other esports. At which point will your multiplier starts increasing back to 1x then? And at which rate your multiplier decays from the peak, to like now in 2024? Seems like magic numbers to me instead of a carefully thought out process
I don't think that's likely to happen, and I'm not sure how I would feel if it did given the murkiness of Saudi Arabian funding, but I suppose it would have to start trending back towards 1x.
Having said that, it's more of a concept/feeling than a rigid statistical system.
It's not a well thought-out process in the slightest.
On May 18 2024 06:10 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: Rule number 1 in this forum: never ask today's 'GOATS' what achievement they had when Kespa team houses existed.
This has been mentioned plenty of times.
Since the Korean team league structure collapsed, the standard of competition has dropped off a cliff. Players did not dominate season after season back when the Korean team leagues existed. Several players rose up to win GSL only to drop off just as quickly. Maru's G5L was such a landmark achievement precisely because it was so difficult for someone to achieve that many GSL wins prior to Maru managing to do so, but even that happened after the Korean team league structure collapsed.
Even qualifying for GSL consistently was difficult back then. For example, look at the winners of the NesTea Award, given to players who manage to qualify for Code S ten times in a row. Only four players managed to do this before the Korean team league structure fell apart in 2016. Fifteen players have done so since. It's not difficult to join the dots.
Serral's achievements are impressive, but they've all come during a period where there's a lower standard of competition. People can choose to ignore this if they want - "you can only beat what's put in front of you" - but I personally think it's an important factor to consider.
One flipside of this argument is that Korean players are operating under similar conditions to foreign players now, and without having that team house setup advantage that gap has closed considerably.
I don’t think it’s a complete refutation, there are other associated issues that are also impactful. It’s not just the collapse of the previous structure, it’s an underfunding of the current one which contributes to the overall decline.
The collapse of the Korean team league structure is just a convenient line for me to draw. Regardless of where you choose to draw the line, it remains my opinion that the standard and depth of competition has declined as a result of money leaving the scene, and that this makes Serral's achievements less remarkable than those of other GOAT candidates.
It'll only ever be an opinion though. Amongst his peers, Serral is clearly an outlier, and for some people that is the most important thing. I can't say those people are objectively wrong, it's just a different perspective, and that's what makes the discussion interesting!
The same applies for Rogue though, not just Serral. He "only" started winning big when proleague was disbanded, and zerg started to get really strong. Only Maru among the three GOAT candidates was truly a top class player in the fiercest era. Imo Serral has a better case of GOATness than Rogue. As for Maru, as a super fan I am biased so my opinion on the matter isn't very interesting
My reasoning applies to anyone who came to prominence after the scene peaked, and to everything anyone achieved after the scene peaked.
If you wanted to describe it statistically, then I suppose the way it works in my head is that every achievement prior to the scene peaking has a 1x multiplier, whereas every achievement after the scene peaked has an ever decreasing multiplier the further away we get from the peak.
But this is just one (very subjective) way of looking at things, and I'm not claiming to be more "correct" than anyone else.
But what if there is another competitive peak? I mean, imagine if SA keeps investing into esports, and the new RTS (zerospace / stormgate) are worse than Starcraft 2, so ultimately Microsoft/Blizzard finally cares about sc2 again and invests into it. We could have another competitive peak if some new blood from foreign scene / KR scene plays starcraft instead of fortnite, league of legends or whatever other esports. At which point will your multiplier starts increasing back to 1x then? And at which rate your multiplier decays from the peak, to like now in 2024? Seems like magic numbers to me instead of a carefully thought out process
I don't think that's likely to happen, and I'm not sure how I would feel if it did given the murkiness of Saudi Arabian funding, but I suppose it would have to start trending back towards 1x.
Having said that, it's more of a concept/feeling than a rigid statistical system.
It's not a well thought-out process in the slightest.
So it's mostly foreigner bashing then?
An entirely unintended consequence!
And I should probably add that every Zerg achievement towards the end of WoL gets an automatic 0x multiplier...
On May 21 2024 15:23 goldensail wrote: I often wish we have more data-driven analyses to support arguments from both sides. A guy with the handle "Imdata" tried doing that some time ago to support his argument that Serral is a bigger outlier than Maru, I actually thought it was a good attempt, but unfortunately his data was clearly flawed and I didn't see a follow-up after I pointed out some issues.
If we have a hosted dataset (e.g. participants and results from all Premier/Major events for the last 10 years) in Excel format that we can download and model, I believe we can have more objective discussions.
I have most of that stuff. It's just a huge pain to edit a massive google sheet with all the (most relevant) information.
Personally, I find Mvp to be the biggest outlier as far as "dominance" goes. He played during an era where all the best players were playing in Korea and he had far superior win rates (and won way more events) against the same field that all the other top pros (MC, NesTea, MKP, MMA, Leenock etc) where playing against.
Serral's numbers reflect a slightly greater degree of dominance. But, given region lock and all sorts of factors that have segmented the player base, he doesn't get as many chances as Mvp did to go against his top rivals (and/or victims) which is why I have Serral as the "best" player rather than the most "dominant".
It's hard to call Maru the GOAT when a contemporary has a dominating record against him.
That said, I think two trends are fairly reliable.
Zerg is better in weekend tournaments. The race is built for stability: -Stable, unexploitable standard openings -superior scouting -strongest defensively (due to creep, larvae, scouting advantage, etc.) -Limited need for build variety
GSL on the other hand is built for Terran and Protoss. Each round, you are focusing on 1-2 players at most. Build variety becomes an advantage as you can tune builds to exploit specific opponents. Get past your 2 opponents? Now you have another week+ to prepare new builds for pre-determined opponents.
Throw in the fact that Koreans are playing with severe jet lag in the majority of weekenders, and it's no surprise that Serral has dominated the European scene.
TLDR: Serral is the best Zerg, Maru is the best Terran, but we will never know who the best player is.
On May 21 2024 20:48 tskarzyn wrote: It's hard to call Maru the GOAT when a contemporary has a dominating record against him.
That said, I think two trends are fairly reliable.
Zerg is better in weekend tournaments. The race is built for stability: -Stable, unexploitable standard openings -superior scouting -strongest defensively (due to creep, larvae, scouting advantage, etc.) -Limited need for build variety
GSL on the other hand is built for Terran and Protoss. Each round, you are focusing on 1-2 players at most. Build variety becomes an advantage as you can tune builds to exploit specific opponents. Get past your 2 opponents? Now you have another week+ to prepare new builds for pre-determined opponents.
Throw in the fact that Koreans are playing with severe jet lag in the majority of weekenders, and it's no surprise that Serral has dominated the European scene.
TLDR: Serral is the best Zerg, Maru is the best Terran, but we will never know who the best player is.
Maru is the best player, playing the most difficult race at a level way above the other terrans for long period of times
On May 18 2024 06:10 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: Rule number 1 in this forum: never ask today's 'GOATS' what achievement they had when Kespa team houses existed.
This has been mentioned plenty of times.
Since the Korean team league structure collapsed, the standard of competition has dropped off a cliff. Players did not dominate season after season back when the Korean team leagues existed. Several players rose up to win GSL only to drop off just as quickly. Maru's G5L was such a landmark achievement precisely because it was so difficult for someone to achieve that many GSL wins prior to Maru managing to do so, but even that happened after the Korean team league structure collapsed.
Even qualifying for GSL consistently was difficult back then. For example, look at the winners of the NesTea Award, given to players who manage to qualify for Code S ten times in a row. Only four players managed to do this before the Korean team league structure fell apart in 2016. Fifteen players have done so since. It's not difficult to join the dots.
Serral's achievements are impressive, but they've all come during a period where there's a lower standard of competition. People can choose to ignore this if they want - "you can only beat what's put in front of you" - but I personally think it's an important factor to consider.
One flipside of this argument is that Korean players are operating under similar conditions to foreign players now, and without having that team house setup advantage that gap has closed considerably.
I don’t think it’s a complete refutation, there are other associated issues that are also impactful. It’s not just the collapse of the previous structure, it’s an underfunding of the current one which contributes to the overall decline.
The collapse of the Korean team league structure is just a convenient line for me to draw. Regardless of where you choose to draw the line, it remains my opinion that the standard and depth of competition has declined as a result of money leaving the scene, and that this makes Serral's achievements less remarkable than those of other GOAT candidates.
It'll only ever be an opinion though. Amongst his peers, Serral is clearly an outlier, and for some people that is the most important thing. I can't say those people are objectively wrong, it's just a different perspective, and that's what makes the discussion interesting!
The same applies for Rogue though, not just Serral. He "only" started winning big when proleague was disbanded, and zerg started to get really strong. Only Maru among the three GOAT candidates was truly a top class player in the fiercest era. Imo Serral has a better case of GOATness than Rogue. As for Maru, as a super fan I am biased so my opinion on the matter isn't very interesting
If the only era that counts is before the collapse of proleague, the GOAT is clearly innovation. In fact, Maru probably doesn't make top 10.
Edit: obviously can make a case for he-who-shall-not-be-named as well, but we WON'T.
On May 18 2024 06:10 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: Rule number 1 in this forum: never ask today's 'GOATS' what achievement they had when Kespa team houses existed.
This has been mentioned plenty of times.
Since the Korean team league structure collapsed, the standard of competition has dropped off a cliff. Players did not dominate season after season back when the Korean team leagues existed. Several players rose up to win GSL only to drop off just as quickly. Maru's G5L was such a landmark achievement precisely because it was so difficult for someone to achieve that many GSL wins prior to Maru managing to do so, but even that happened after the Korean team league structure collapsed.
Even qualifying for GSL consistently was difficult back then. For example, look at the winners of the NesTea Award, given to players who manage to qualify for Code S ten times in a row. Only four players managed to do this before the Korean team league structure fell apart in 2016. Fifteen players have done so since. It's not difficult to join the dots.
Serral's achievements are impressive, but they've all come during a period where there's a lower standard of competition. People can choose to ignore this if they want - "you can only beat what's put in front of you" - but I personally think it's an important factor to consider.
One flipside of this argument is that Korean players are operating under similar conditions to foreign players now, and without having that team house setup advantage that gap has closed considerably.
I don’t think it’s a complete refutation, there are other associated issues that are also impactful. It’s not just the collapse of the previous structure, it’s an underfunding of the current one which contributes to the overall decline.
The collapse of the Korean team league structure is just a convenient line for me to draw. Regardless of where you choose to draw the line, it remains my opinion that the standard and depth of competition has declined as a result of money leaving the scene, and that this makes Serral's achievements less remarkable than those of other GOAT candidates.
It'll only ever be an opinion though. Amongst his peers, Serral is clearly an outlier, and for some people that is the most important thing. I can't say those people are objectively wrong, it's just a different perspective, and that's what makes the discussion interesting!
The same applies for Rogue though, not just Serral. He "only" started winning big when proleague was disbanded, and zerg started to get really strong. Only Maru among the three GOAT candidates was truly a top class player in the fiercest era. Imo Serral has a better case of GOATness than Rogue. As for Maru, as a super fan I am biased so my opinion on the matter isn't very interesting
If the only era that counts is before the collapse of proleague, the GOAT is clearly innovation. In fact, Maru probably doesn't make top 10.
Edit: obviously can make a case for he-who-shall-not-be-named as well, but we WON'T.
Yeah INnoVation is the GOAT in my heart as well, if only Maru didn't exist to remind INno that he isn't the most talented / gifted player in the world. Poor INno
On May 21 2024 15:23 goldensail wrote: I often wish we have more data-driven analyses to support arguments from both sides. A guy with the handle "Imdata" tried doing that some time ago to support his argument that Serral is a bigger outlier than Maru, I actually thought it was a good attempt, but unfortunately his data was clearly flawed and I didn't see a follow-up after I pointed out some issues.
If we have a hosted dataset (e.g. participants and results from all Premier/Major events for the last 10 years) in Excel format that we can download and model, I believe we can have more objective discussions.
I have most of that stuff. It's just a huge pain to edit a massive google sheet with all the (most relevant) information.
Personally, I find Mvp to be the biggest outlier as far as "dominance" goes. He played during an era where all the best players were playing in Korea and he had far superior win rates (and won way more events) against the same field that all the other top pros (MC, NesTea, MKP, MMA, Leenock etc) where playing against.
Serral's numbers reflect a slightly greater degree of dominance. But, given region lock and all sorts of factors that have segmented the player base, he doesn't get as many chances as Mvp did to go against his top rivals (and/or victims) which is why I have Serral as the "best" player rather than the most "dominant".
This makes sense. I can't remember if you went into this at all, but I wonder what you think of the game's evolution towards more stable metas and how it impacts these player assessments. My intuition is that this makes Mvp's dominance even that much more impressive, because in those earlier years it was a lot easier to discover or develop new strategies, tactics, and builds that could counter a particular player's strengths. And because the pro scene was a lot bigger, it was more likely that those strategies would surface quickly to displace any player who was super dominant.
It's interesting to think of how these SC2 GOAT convos compare with similar convos in chess where there are legitimately multiple GOAT contenders. Maru is kinda like Gary Kasparov in that he's been on top forever, over the course of multiple generations and metas in how the game is played. Serral is kinda like Magnus Carlsen in that he's the best player to ever play the game. And Mvp is kinda like Bobby Fischer in the level of unrivaled dominance he had over his peers. There are differences of course, these aren't perfect analogies.
There's actually another analogy that I want to touch on, which is how both Mvp and Maru adapted to their injuries. I don't know if Maru has ever said this, but having watched the guy forever, he's definitely adapted to a more cerebral style that is focused on strategic decision-making more than the ridiculously fast mechanics and micro that define, for example, Clem's playstyle. I wonder how much of this adaptation is just a natural result of his accumulated game knowledge and maturity, and how much of it is a deliberate pivot to a style that works better with his injuries.
I don't think you should learn SQL to do it. I prompted ChatGPT with your request AND the tables description of aligulac database (available on the link), downloaded the aligulac.sql.gz zipped file and the response it gave seems good enough to work, and relatively easy to implement even for a beginner. I will try it once work is finished to see if it gives a good result.
If you want to try to implement it yourself, here is the answer (you would need Python, I choose it because it's the easiest way for me but feel free to ask anything to the chatbot).
On May 18 2024 06:10 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: Rule number 1 in this forum: never ask today's 'GOATS' what achievement they had when Kespa team houses existed.
This has been mentioned plenty of times.
Since the Korean team league structure collapsed, the standard of competition has dropped off a cliff. Players did not dominate season after season back when the Korean team leagues existed. Several players rose up to win GSL only to drop off just as quickly. Maru's G5L was such a landmark achievement precisely because it was so difficult for someone to achieve that many GSL wins prior to Maru managing to do so, but even that happened after the Korean team league structure collapsed.
Even qualifying for GSL consistently was difficult back then. For example, look at the winners of the NesTea Award, given to players who manage to qualify for Code S ten times in a row. Only four players managed to do this before the Korean team league structure fell apart in 2016. Fifteen players have done so since. It's not difficult to join the dots.
Serral's achievements are impressive, but they've all come during a period where there's a lower standard of competition. People can choose to ignore this if they want - "you can only beat what's put in front of you" - but I personally think it's an important factor to consider.
One flipside of this argument is that Korean players are operating under similar conditions to foreign players now, and without having that team house setup advantage that gap has closed considerably.
I don’t think it’s a complete refutation, there are other associated issues that are also impactful. It’s not just the collapse of the previous structure, it’s an underfunding of the current one which contributes to the overall decline.
The collapse of the Korean team league structure is just a convenient line for me to draw. Regardless of where you choose to draw the line, it remains my opinion that the standard and depth of competition has declined as a result of money leaving the scene, and that this makes Serral's achievements less remarkable than those of other GOAT candidates.
It'll only ever be an opinion though. Amongst his peers, Serral is clearly an outlier, and for some people that is the most important thing. I can't say those people are objectively wrong, it's just a different perspective, and that's what makes the discussion interesting!
The same applies for Rogue though, not just Serral. He "only" started winning big when proleague was disbanded, and zerg started to get really strong. Only Maru among the three GOAT candidates was truly a top class player in the fiercest era. Imo Serral has a better case of GOATness than Rogue. As for Maru, as a super fan I am biased so my opinion on the matter isn't very interesting
If the only era that counts is before the collapse of proleague, the GOAT is clearly innovation. In fact, Maru probably doesn't make top 10.
Edit: obviously can make a case for he-who-shall-not-be-named as well, but we WON'T.
There's a difference between "Results after 2016 shouldn't count" and "results post-2016 should gradually be worth less as the competition of the scene decreased".
The first one is imo stupid and I'm not sure why people bring it up, as if in 2017 it suddenly was so much easier to win tournaments just because Kespa disbanded. The scene getting less competitive was a gradual process, it didn't happen over night.
On May 21 2024 20:48 tskarzyn wrote: It's hard to call Maru the GOAT when a contemporary has a dominating record against him.
That said, I think two trends are fairly reliable.
Zerg is better in weekend tournaments. The race is built for stability: -Stable, unexploitable standard openings -superior scouting -strongest defensively (due to creep, larvae, scouting advantage, etc.) -Limited need for build variety
GSL on the other hand is built for Terran and Protoss. Each round, you are focusing on 1-2 players at most. Build variety becomes an advantage as you can tune builds to exploit specific opponents. Get past your 2 opponents? Now you have another week+ to prepare new builds for pre-determined opponents.
Throw in the fact that Koreans are playing with severe jet lag in the majority of weekenders, and it's no surprise that Serral has dominated the European scene.
TLDR: Serral is the best Zerg, Maru is the best Terran, but we will never know who the best player is.
I'd add to that that Serrals record against Maru is almost solely based on 2022-2024 as they hardly faced each other before that. I think Maru can still be the Goat despite another player being better than him for 2.5 years out of Marus 14 year career.
Of course it can never be proven but I think Serral got quite lucky he mostly avoided Maru from 2018-2021 as his ZvT back then wasn't on the level as it was in 2022-2024 and he lost multiple important series against the likes of Byun, Cure, Inno, Clem during that time
On May 21 2024 20:48 tskarzyn wrote: It's hard to call Maru the GOAT when a contemporary has a dominating record against him.
That said, I think two trends are fairly reliable.
Zerg is better in weekend tournaments. The race is built for stability: -Stable, unexploitable standard openings -superior scouting -strongest defensively (due to creep, larvae, scouting advantage, etc.) -Limited need for build variety
GSL on the other hand is built for Terran and Protoss. Each round, you are focusing on 1-2 players at most. Build variety becomes an advantage as you can tune builds to exploit specific opponents. Get past your 2 opponents? Now you have another week+ to prepare new builds for pre-determined opponents.
Throw in the fact that Koreans are playing with severe jet lag in the majority of weekenders, and it's no surprise that Serral has dominated the European scene.
TLDR: Serral is the best Zerg, Maru is the best Terran, but we will never know who the best player is.
I'd add to that that Serrals record against Maru is almost solely based on 2022-2024 as they hardly faced each other before that. I think Maru can still be the Goat despite another player being better than him for 2.5 years out of Marus 14 year career.
Of course it can never be proven but I think Serral got quite lucky he mostly avoided Maru from 2018-2021 as his ZvT back then wasn't on the level as it was in 2022-2024 and he lost multiple important series against the likes of Byun, Cure, Inno, Clem during that time
Considering maru bopped him when they played at the wesg in 2018, yeah that probably tracks
On May 21 2024 20:48 tskarzyn wrote: It's hard to call Maru the GOAT when a contemporary has a dominating record against him.
That said, I think two trends are fairly reliable.
Zerg is better in weekend tournaments. The race is built for stability: -Stable, unexploitable standard openings -superior scouting -strongest defensively (due to creep, larvae, scouting advantage, etc.) -Limited need for build variety
GSL on the other hand is built for Terran and Protoss. Each round, you are focusing on 1-2 players at most. Build variety becomes an advantage as you can tune builds to exploit specific opponents. Get past your 2 opponents? Now you have another week+ to prepare new builds for pre-determined opponents.
Throw in the fact that Koreans are playing with severe jet lag in the majority of weekenders, and it's no surprise that Serral has dominated the European scene.
TLDR: Serral is the best Zerg, Maru is the best Terran, but we will never know who the best player is.
I'd add to that that Serrals record against Maru is almost solely based on 2022-2024 as they hardly faced each other before that. I think Maru can still be the Goat despite another player being better than him for 2.5 years out of Marus 14 year career.
Of course it can never be proven but I think Serral got quite lucky he mostly avoided Maru from 2018-2021 as his ZvT back then wasn't on the level as it was in 2022-2024 and he lost multiple important series against the likes of Byun, Cure, Inno, Clem during that time
It's almost like H2H record isn't the most meaningful metric for GOAT matters (nor are earnings, it's still painful how some "weaker" regions players got A TON of money for simply being the largest fish in a small NA / LATAM pond)
On May 21 2024 20:48 tskarzyn wrote: It's hard to call Maru the GOAT when a contemporary has a dominating record against him.
That said, I think two trends are fairly reliable.
Zerg is better in weekend tournaments. The race is built for stability: -Stable, unexploitable standard openings -superior scouting -strongest defensively (due to creep, larvae, scouting advantage, etc.) -Limited need for build variety
GSL on the other hand is built for Terran and Protoss. Each round, you are focusing on 1-2 players at most. Build variety becomes an advantage as you can tune builds to exploit specific opponents. Get past your 2 opponents? Now you have another week+ to prepare new builds for pre-determined opponents.
Throw in the fact that Koreans are playing with severe jet lag in the majority of weekenders, and it's no surprise that Serral has dominated the European scene.
TLDR: Serral is the best Zerg, Maru is the best Terran, but we will never know who the best player is.
I'd add to that that Serrals record against Maru is almost solely based on 2022-2024 as they hardly faced each other before that. I think Maru can still be the Goat despite another player being better than him for 2.5 years out of Marus 14 year career.
Of course it can never be proven but I think Serral got quite lucky he mostly avoided Maru from 2018-2021 as his ZvT back then wasn't on the level as it was in 2022-2024 and he lost multiple important series against the likes of Byun, Cure, Inno, Clem during that time
It's almost like H2H record isn't the most meaningful metric for GOAT matters (nor are earnings, it's still painful how some "weaker" regions players got A TON of money for simply being the largest fish in a small NA / LATAM pond)
Head to head records are part of a players statistical profile. It's a good measure of how good a player is versus his peers and is a valuable part of assessing a player's overall value. I'm of the opinion that H2H, while tempting, should not be a major factor when deciding a player's overall value relative to another player. It was useful to use when evaluating Serral and Mvp against their peers (specially comparing overlapping players in a defined time period), but I wouldn't put too much focus on it as a general rule.
On May 21 2024 20:48 tskarzyn wrote: It's hard to call Maru the GOAT when a contemporary has a dominating record against him.
That said, I think two trends are fairly reliable.
Zerg is better in weekend tournaments. The race is built for stability: -Stable, unexploitable standard openings -superior scouting -strongest defensively (due to creep, larvae, scouting advantage, etc.) -Limited need for build variety
GSL on the other hand is built for Terran and Protoss. Each round, you are focusing on 1-2 players at most. Build variety becomes an advantage as you can tune builds to exploit specific opponents. Get past your 2 opponents? Now you have another week+ to prepare new builds for pre-determined opponents.
Throw in the fact that Koreans are playing with severe jet lag in the majority of weekenders, and it's no surprise that Serral has dominated the European scene.
TLDR: Serral is the best Zerg, Maru is the best Terran, but we will never know who the best player is.
I'd add to that that Serrals record against Maru is almost solely based on 2022-2024 as they hardly faced each other before that. I think Maru can still be the Goat despite another player being better than him for 2.5 years out of Marus 14 year career.
Of course it can never be proven but I think Serral got quite lucky he mostly avoided Maru from 2018-2021 as his ZvT back then wasn't on the level as it was in 2022-2024 and he lost multiple important series against the likes of Byun, Cure, Inno, Clem during that time
It's almost like H2H record isn't the most meaningful metric for GOAT matters (nor are earnings, it's still painful how some "weaker" regions players got A TON of money for simply being the largest fish in a small NA / LATAM pond)
Head to head records are part of a players statistical profile. It's a good measure of how good a player is versus his peers and is a valuable part of assessing a player's overall value. I'm of the opinion that H2H, while tempting, should not be a major factor when deciding a player's overall value relative to another player. It was useful to use when evaluating Serral and Mvp against their peers (specially comparing overlapping players in a defined time period), but I wouldn't put too much focus on it as a general rule.
The main problem with head2head (imo) is that if a player A is beating player B in a specific time period (due to being better in the match-up, favorable balance, being more in form or whatever), the more they play in this period, the more it will benefit player A.
However, if player B were to beat player A in a different time period / circumstances, but they weren’t given as many occasions to play often, he won’t be able to catch up.
For a more concrete example, what would have happened if Serral before he went full time were to play the KR players pre-2017? Or what if Maru kept playing versus Serral after he beat him in WESG2018?
In BW, only maps change afaik, but in sc2 we have a lot more patches on top of the map rotations. It makes the comparisons difficult.
At the very top level, a tiny advantage like favorable map / balance can skew the results. It’s very probable Protosser has beaten Serral in sc2 more often than the contrary, but they probably stopped playing against each other since Protosser moved on to something else, but if he were to play his younger brother in his prime, the record would probably lean towards Serral very quickly.
This is why comparing players of different eras is difficult.
On May 22 2024 01:05 Poopi wrote: This is why comparing players of different eras is difficult.
That is the first issue you run into with a GOAT list. My solution was to "score" as you would in golf, where players compete against the course and are compared against one another to determine the winner. If you don't filter this through both stages you become insanely subjective insanely fast as you try to figure out how to weigh the million and one differences between Mvp and Serral's career.
I don't think you should learn SQL to do it. I prompted ChatGPT with your request AND the tables description of aligulac database (available on the link), downloaded the aligulac.sql.gz zipped file and the response it gave seems good enough to work, and relatively easy to implement even for a beginner. I will try it once work is finished to see if it gives a good result.
If you want to try to implement it yourself, here is the answer (you would need Python, I choose it because it's the easiest way for me but feel free to ask anything to the chatbot).
Thanks!
It seems like using their database dump isn't as "easy" as it sounds, probably because of
The dump contains 11 tables. Some columns are foreign keys to tables that have been removed from the dump (primarily involving user accounts). Everything given below is in terms of PostgreSQL standards.
. I will try to tackle it later then.
As Mizenhauer previously said though, having all of this data in an excel sheet (or google sheets) doesn't seem like the easiest way to visualize it / get meaningful informations. It is still interesting to try and gather such data for everyone to be able to play a bit with it and draw their own conclusions about the greatest players.
Such discussions (GOAT, etc.) help keeping a sport / esport alive imo
On May 22 2024 01:05 Poopi wrote: This is why comparing players of different eras is difficult.
That is the first issue you run into with a GOAT list. My solution was to "score" as you would in golf, where players compete against the course and are compared against one another to determine the winner. If you don't filter this through both stages you become insanely subjective insanely fast as you try to figure out how to weigh the million and one differences between Mvp and Serral's career.
Yeah I can see how it is very difficult to do "objectively".
That's probably why people weren't sure about Dark or mvp being omitted from the list, even more than Rain, mvp feels like a player from a completely different era of sc2
On May 18 2024 06:10 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: Rule number 1 in this forum: never ask today's 'GOATS' what achievement they had when Kespa team houses existed.
This has been mentioned plenty of times.
Since the Korean team league structure collapsed, the standard of competition has dropped off a cliff. Players did not dominate season after season back when the Korean team leagues existed. Several players rose up to win GSL only to drop off just as quickly. Maru's G5L was such a landmark achievement precisely because it was so difficult for someone to achieve that many GSL wins prior to Maru managing to do so, but even that happened after the Korean team league structure collapsed.
Even qualifying for GSL consistently was difficult back then. For example, look at the winners of the NesTea Award, given to players who manage to qualify for Code S ten times in a row. Only four players managed to do this before the Korean team league structure fell apart in 2016. Fifteen players have done so since. It's not difficult to join the dots.
Serral's achievements are impressive, but they've all come during a period where there's a lower standard of competition. People can choose to ignore this if they want - "you can only beat what's put in front of you" - but I personally think it's an important factor to consider.
One flipside of this argument is that Korean players are operating under similar conditions to foreign players now, and without having that team house setup advantage that gap has closed considerably.
I don’t think it’s a complete refutation, there are other associated issues that are also impactful. It’s not just the collapse of the previous structure, it’s an underfunding of the current one which contributes to the overall decline.
The collapse of the Korean team league structure is just a convenient line for me to draw. Regardless of where you choose to draw the line, it remains my opinion that the standard and depth of competition has declined as a result of money leaving the scene, and that this makes Serral's achievements less remarkable than those of other GOAT candidates.
It'll only ever be an opinion though. Amongst his peers, Serral is clearly an outlier, and for some people that is the most important thing. I can't say those people are objectively wrong, it's just a different perspective, and that's what makes the discussion interesting!
The same applies for Rogue though, not just Serral. He "only" started winning big when proleague was disbanded, and zerg started to get really strong. Only Maru among the three GOAT candidates was truly a top class player in the fiercest era. Imo Serral has a better case of GOATness than Rogue. As for Maru, as a super fan I am biased so my opinion on the matter isn't very interesting
If the only era that counts is before the collapse of proleague, the GOAT is clearly innovation. In fact, Maru probably doesn't make top 10.
Edit: obviously can make a case for he-who-shall-not-be-named as well, but we WON'T.
I wasn't saying that I believe everything after Proleague is completely irrelevant, just that I believe everything after Proleague is steadily less relevant. It's a sliding scale, not a cliff-edge.
On May 12 2024 05:47 Starcloud wrote: It would be more interesting to have an article with wondering the reasons why Maru is so dominate in the first place. Maybe have an interview or two from his rivals even. Now this feels more like an additional explanation for his number one position, that really doesnt actually add up anything to the case.
It's just army control. And it isn't just max army situations, it's every phase of the game, including multiple fronts.
Both He and Serral are the only players to make not only their max armies look untouchable, but also the only ones to navigate seemingly unwinnable situations if/when they ever get behind.
In Maru's case he's much more prone to making build order mistakes and suboptimal strategy decisions. He overcomes this by being able to identify and execute in situations where other players might not be able to do either.
Worth noting I still think Serral is the best overall since his play is much more suffocating as he doesn't make near as mistakes. As for the interviews there have been a handful and they've all pretty much mirrored this thinking.
On May 12 2024 05:47 Starcloud wrote: It would be more interesting to have an article with wondering the reasons why Maru is so dominate in the first place. Maybe have an interview or two from his rivals even. Now this feels more like an additional explanation for his number one position, that really doesnt actually add up anything to the case.
It's just army control. And it isn't just max army situations, it's every phase of the game, including multiple fronts.
Both He and Serral are the only players to make not only their max armies look untouchable, but also the only ones to navigate seemingly unwinnable situations if/when they ever get behind.
In Maru's case he's much more prone to making build order mistakes and suboptimal strategy decisions. He overcomes this by being able to identify and execute in situations where other players might not be able to do either.
Worth noting I still think Serral is the best overall since his play is much more suffocating as he doesn't make near as mistakes. As for the interviews there have been a handful and they've all pretty much mirrored this thinking.
Aye, I think Maru is the guy who does things you didn’t think were possible, mixed in with the occasional baffling decision, where Serral is the guy who basically always does what you’re ’supposed’ to do and executes it excellently almost every time.
You really don’t want to run into Maru if he’s on his absolute A game, but on an average day for both it’s Serral you wanna avoid.
Even if the most low-stakes environment for good pros, laddering, Serral basically doesn’t lose. I’ve watched him frequently do a 3 hour stream and not actually lose a game.
Maru is obviously no slouch laddering either don’t get me wrong there! But Serral’s floor is just ridiculously high, like he brings 80/90% of his best game all the time, even in the most casual of settings. It’d be like a pool player in your local bar playing pretty close to how they would in a big prestige tournament.
On May 12 2024 05:47 Starcloud wrote: It would be more interesting to have an article with wondering the reasons why Maru is so dominate in the first place. Maybe have an interview or two from his rivals even. Now this feels more like an additional explanation for his number one position, that really doesnt actually add up anything to the case.
It's just army control. And it isn't just max army situations, it's every phase of the game, including multiple fronts.
Both He and Serral are the only players to make not only their max armies look untouchable, but also the only ones to navigate seemingly unwinnable situations if/when they ever get behind.
In Maru's case he's much more prone to making build order mistakes and suboptimal strategy decisions. He overcomes this by being able to identify and execute in situations where other players might not be able to do either.
Worth noting I still think Serral is the best overall since his play is much more suffocating as he doesn't make near as mistakes. As for the interviews there have been a handful and they've all pretty much mirrored this thinking.
I’m not sure it’s this simple. “Strategy” in RTS often comes down to pre-game decisions on what builds, tech/army comp, and timing attacks you want to go for, mixed in with some in-game decisions on the same. I actually don’t think there’s anyone better at the strategy component than Maru, other than maybe Rogue, who somehow can soul read his opponents and craft strategies that perfectly counter them.
Perhaps somewhat of a hot take, but Serral only really got good at the “strategy” component of the game in the last couple of years. He had gotten by for so long on near flawless execution that it wasn’t until he was regularly dropping series to Clem and Reynor that he realized he needed to start mixing in cheeses, all-ins, high-risk backstabs, etc. It is a testament to how great Serral is that he was able to adapt so perfectly, but also revealing that he resisted it for so long.
Maru’s execution I don’t think has ever been on Serral’s level. But it’s always been very good. The thing is, I think people confuse Maru’s old cheesy play with being a younger, faster, more aggressive player, but if you listen to Day9 dailies from like over 10 years ago he explains how these were actually strategic plays. A “normal” player would cut their losses after the 3rd medivac full of mines gets shot down, but Maru calculates (almost always correctly) that this particular opponent (e.g. Myungsik or Neeb, to think of a couple games off the top) will be so distracted and fearful of additional mine drops that Maru can safely macro to a winning position. His 2018 proxy play was a similar concept. Yes once every few games he would do game ending damage and this was an important part of the calculus, but it was much more about disrupting the opponent’s play and taking control of the game.
It is true that Maru has very good control, which is what makes a lot of these strategies possible. But he never had Byun-level micro skills (there are old interviews of Maru saying he tried so hard to copy Byun’s reaper micro and couldn’t do it). And yet it is amazing that Maru went from aggro proxy Terran to turtle Terran in such a short period of time. In that time, he also showed how mech could be good against Zerg (and even Protoss!). He added some of the most incredible comebacks to the game’s history off great execution for sure, but more importantly impeccable strategic decision-making and game sense regarding the position he was in and what the perfect response needed to be. Serral almost never makes enough mistakes to end up in these kinds of desperate positions, but when he does, he often just executes his defense perfectly until the other guy throws away their winning position.
The thing is, SC2 is primarily a game about who executes “better” and I don’t think I’ve ever seen a player execute as well as Serral (except maybe Clem on his best days). Mvp, TY, SOS, and Rogue I felt maybe had the best strategic understanding of the game for their races, but Maru I think has maybe surpassed TY in the last few years. This is why I think Maru is so good at GSL. He is just very good at preparing strategies that can work against specific opponents, but then also has that unique ability to pull it back quite often even if his strategy doesn’t pan out. And yet Flash is maybe the only gamer who can reliably overcome an execution skill deficit with his superior strategic understanding of the game (as he demonstrated with his incredible Random run in ASL).
The thing is with these strategic players, your decisions are not always going to work out and then it’s easy to say these were “mistakes”. In some cases, they are just strategic mistakes. For example, Maru should not have played this one base skirmish style of TvT against Oliveira in the Katowice finals on given that he was almost certainly going to have a major edge in the mid and late game. But in general strategies involve calculated risk so they don’t always pan out.
On May 22 2024 21:48 rwala wrote: It is true that Maru has very good control, which is what makes a lot of these strategies possible. But he never had Byun-level micro skills (there are old interviews of Maru saying he tried so hard to copy Byun’s reaper micro and couldn’t do it).
You are citing a 12 month period (mid 2016-mid 2017) during which ByuN had the undisputed best REAPER control in the world (the unit was nerfed soon after and ByuN became a slightly above average Terran who hasn't won a premier event in eight years).
ByuN could micro one unit (reaper) and snipe slow banelings off creep when doing the 2/1/1. His splits are awful and he falls apart when he has to pay attention to an army and multiple defensive positions (this is a theme going back to 2016).
Take any other period of time, or any other Terran unit and it's clear that Maru's micro is vastly superior, or on par, with anyone to have played SC2. It's not even a discussion.
On May 22 2024 21:48 rwala wrote: It is true that Maru has very good control, which is what makes a lot of these strategies possible. But he never had Byun-level micro skills (there are old interviews of Maru saying he tried so hard to copy Byun’s reaper micro and couldn’t do it).
You are citing a 12 month period (mid 2016-mid 2017) during which ByuN had the undisputed best REAPER control in the world (the unit was nerfed soon after and ByuN became a slightly above average Terran who hasn't won a premier event in eight years).
ByuN could micro one unit (reaper) and snipe slow banelings off creep when doing the 2/1/1. His splits are awful and he falls apart when he has to pay attention to an army and multiple defensive positions (this is a theme going back to 2016).
Take any other period of time, or any other Terran unit and it's clear that Maru's micro is vastly superior, or on par, with anyone to have played SC2. It's not even a discussion.
Yeah agreed. Maru was initially known as an aggressive/cheesy/micro based player. His TvP dropping marauders on Colossus was huge at the time, relentless drops (exid Terran), engagements, concaves. Then you factor in how many games he has pulled back by being unkillable and efficient.
Not to mention one thing I think he does far and away better than any other terran is siege tank target fire on banes or other priority targets.
On May 12 2024 05:47 Starcloud wrote: It would be more interesting to have an article with wondering the reasons why Maru is so dominate in the first place. Maybe have an interview or two from his rivals even. Now this feels more like an additional explanation for his number one position, that really doesnt actually add up anything to the case.
It's just army control. And it isn't just max army situations, it's every phase of the game, including multiple fronts.
Both He and Serral are the only players to make not only their max armies look untouchable, but also the only ones to navigate seemingly unwinnable situations if/when they ever get behind.
In Maru's case he's much more prone to making build order mistakes and suboptimal strategy decisions. He overcomes this by being able to identify and execute in situations where other players might not be able to do either.
Worth noting I still think Serral is the best overall since his play is much more suffocating as he doesn't make near as mistakes. As for the interviews there have been a handful and they've all pretty much mirrored this thinking.
I’m not sure it’s this simple. “Strategy” in RTS often comes down to pre-game decisions on what builds, tech/army comp, and timing attacks you want to go for, mixed in with some in-game decisions on the same. I actually don’t think there’s anyone better at the strategy component than Maru, other than maybe Rogue, who somehow can soul read his opponents and craft strategies that perfectly counter them.
Perhaps somewhat of a hot take, but Serral only really got good at the “strategy” component of the game in the last couple of years. He had gotten by for so long on near flawless execution that it wasn’t until he was regularly dropping series to Clem and Reynor that he realized he needed to start mixing in cheeses, all-ins, high-risk backstabs, etc. It is a testament to how great Serral is that he was able to adapt so perfectly, but also revealing that he resisted it for so long.
Maru’s execution I don’t think has ever been on Serral’s level. But it’s always been very good. The thing is, I think people confuse Maru’s old cheesy play with being a younger, faster, more aggressive player, but if you listen to Day9 dailies from like over 10 years ago he explains how these were actually strategic plays. A “normal” player would cut their losses after the 3rd medivac full of mines gets shot down, but Maru calculates (almost always correctly) that this particular opponent (e.g. Myungsik or Neeb, to think of a couple games off the top) will be so distracted and fearful of additional mine drops that Maru can safely macro to a winning position. His 2018 proxy play was a similar concept. Yes once every few games he would do game ending damage and this was an important part of the calculus, but it was much more about disrupting the opponent’s play and taking control of the game.
It is true that Maru has very good control, which is what makes a lot of these strategies possible. But he never had Byun-level micro skills (there are old interviews of Maru saying he tried so hard to copy Byun’s reaper micro and couldn’t do it). And yet it is amazing that Maru went from aggro proxy Terran to turtle Terran in such a short period of time. In that time, he also showed how mech could be good against Zerg (and even Protoss!). He added some of the most incredible comebacks to the game’s history off great execution for sure, but more importantly impeccable strategic decision-making and game sense regarding the position he was in and what the perfect response needed to be. Serral almost never makes enough mistakes to end up in these kinds of desperate positions, but when he does, he often just executes his defense perfectly until the other guy throws away their winning position.
The thing is, SC2 is primarily a game about who executes “better” and I don’t think I’ve ever seen a player execute as well as Serral (except maybe Clem on his best days). Mvp, TY, SOS, and Rogue I felt maybe had the best strategic understanding of the game for their races, but Maru I think has maybe surpassed TY in the last few years. This is why I think Maru is so good at GSL. He is just very good at preparing strategies that can work against specific opponents, but then also has that unique ability to pull it back quite often even if his strategy doesn’t pan out. And yet Flash is maybe the only gamer who can reliably overcome an execution skill deficit with his superior strategic understanding of the game (as he demonstrated with his incredible Random run in ASL).
The thing is with these strategic players, your decisions are not always going to work out and then it’s easy to say these were “mistakes”. In some cases, they are just strategic mistakes. For example, Maru should not have played this one base skirmish style of TvT against Oliveira in the Katowice finals on given that he was almost certainly going to have a major edge in the mid and late game. But in general strategies involve calculated risk so they don’t always pan out.
I agree with some of the above with a few comments.
It's not clear to me that Maru "never had Byun-level micro skills" - I've watched many Byun's old reaper micro vids and I didn't find them more impressive than Maru's current level. Byun pioneered it, but Maru became just as good. It's possible that the pre-nerf power of the reapers contributed to the impression that Byun made better of them. For units other than reapers, I believe Maru's micro is better than Byun's e.g. his control of marines in proxy racks plays. In TvT early skirmishes, these two are comparable and Maru perhaps has a slight edge.
Serral is indeed very solid in executing. However I would also say this stability is at least partially due to 1) Zerg play being more forgiving when it comes to the likelihood/impact of mistakes, and 2) sticking to a proven playbook.
When a team of ghosts gets fungaled, or a clumped up ball of marines doesn't split in time and gets blown up by banes, the game is often over for the Terran because it takes too long/too much to replace these units. Miss a nydus at your home base? Your production is gone and again GG. The margin of error is quite small. In contrast for a Zerg - didn't control banes perfectly? That's OK as long as they didn't all get blown up and trade well enough. Didn't control lings during back-stabbing? That's OK they will auto attack and can be replaced quickly. Lost some infestors that got spotted? No problem just make more with your superior economy. I'm simplifying a bit but hopefully you get the idea.
I talked about the playbook in another post so won't repeat it here.
When a team of ghosts gets fungaled, or a clumped up ball of marines doesn't split in time and gets blown up by banes, the game is often over for the Terran because it takes too long/too much to replace these units. Miss a nydus at your home base? Your production is gone and again GG. The margin of error is quite small. In contrast for a Zerg - didn't control banes perfectly? That's OK as long as they didn't all get blown up and trade well enough. Didn't control lings during back-stabbing? That's OK they will auto attack and can be replaced quickly. Lost some infestors that got spotted? No problem just make more with your superior economy. I'm simplifying a bit but hopefully you get the idea.
Terran player detected! with standard stuff "Terran is the hardest race" mimimi. I used to believe it, but I don't agree anymore. Terran has the most diversity and usability in its units. The way it is acted here "one mistake and you lose" simply marine spam 50/0 -> can fight everything and outscale all no aoe units. just tank -> 10min+ playtime. lose all workers, keyword Mule. stabilize Terrans ecco until it is 60-80 workers again.
in other words it is almost impossible to lose a unit or trade inefficiently as a terran. always this fake hype about Terran "micro".
On May 12 2024 05:47 Starcloud wrote: It would be more interesting to have an article with wondering the reasons why Maru is so dominate in the first place. Maybe have an interview or two from his rivals even. Now this feels more like an additional explanation for his number one position, that really doesnt actually add up anything to the case.
It's just army control. And it isn't just max army situations, it's every phase of the game, including multiple fronts.
Both He and Serral are the only players to make not only their max armies look untouchable, but also the only ones to navigate seemingly unwinnable situations if/when they ever get behind.
In Maru's case he's much more prone to making build order mistakes and suboptimal strategy decisions. He overcomes this by being able to identify and execute in situations where other players might not be able to do either.
Worth noting I still think Serral is the best overall since his play is much more suffocating as he doesn't make near as mistakes. As for the interviews there have been a handful and they've all pretty much mirrored this thinking.
I’m not sure it’s this simple. “Strategy” in RTS often comes down to pre-game decisions on what builds, tech/army comp, and timing attacks you want to go for, mixed in with some in-game decisions on the same. I actually don’t think there’s anyone better at the strategy component than Maru, other than maybe Rogue, who somehow can soul read his opponents and craft strategies that perfectly counter them.
Perhaps somewhat of a hot take, but Serral only really got good at the “strategy” component of the game in the last couple of years. He had gotten by for so long on near flawless execution that it wasn’t until he was regularly dropping series to Clem and Reynor that he realized he needed to start mixing in cheeses, all-ins, high-risk backstabs, etc. It is a testament to how great Serral is that he was able to adapt so perfectly, but also revealing that he resisted it for so long.
Maru’s execution I don’t think has ever been on Serral’s level. But it’s always been very good. The thing is, I think people confuse Maru’s old cheesy play with being a younger, faster, more aggressive player, but if you listen to Day9 dailies from like over 10 years ago he explains how these were actually strategic plays. A “normal” player would cut their losses after the 3rd medivac full of mines gets shot down, but Maru calculates (almost always correctly) that this particular opponent (e.g. Myungsik or Neeb, to think of a couple games off the top) will be so distracted and fearful of additional mine drops that Maru can safely macro to a winning position. His 2018 proxy play was a similar concept. Yes once every few games he would do game ending damage and this was an important part of the calculus, but it was much more about disrupting the opponent’s play and taking control of the game.
It is true that Maru has very good control, which is what makes a lot of these strategies possible. But he never had Byun-level micro skills (there are old interviews of Maru saying he tried so hard to copy Byun’s reaper micro and couldn’t do it). And yet it is amazing that Maru went from aggro proxy Terran to turtle Terran in such a short period of time. In that time, he also showed how mech could be good against Zerg (and even Protoss!). He added some of the most incredible comebacks to the game’s history off great execution for sure, but more importantly impeccable strategic decision-making and game sense regarding the position he was in and what the perfect response needed to be. Serral almost never makes enough mistakes to end up in these kinds of desperate positions, but when he does, he often just executes his defense perfectly until the other guy throws away their winning position.
The thing is, SC2 is primarily a game about who executes “better” and I don’t think I’ve ever seen a player execute as well as Serral (except maybe Clem on his best days). Mvp, TY, SOS, and Rogue I felt maybe had the best strategic understanding of the game for their races, but Maru I think has maybe surpassed TY in the last few years. This is why I think Maru is so good at GSL. He is just very good at preparing strategies that can work against specific opponents, but then also has that unique ability to pull it back quite often even if his strategy doesn’t pan out. And yet Flash is maybe the only gamer who can reliably overcome an execution skill deficit with his superior strategic understanding of the game (as he demonstrated with his incredible Random run in ASL).
The thing is with these strategic players, your decisions are not always going to work out and then it’s easy to say these were “mistakes”. In some cases, they are just strategic mistakes. For example, Maru should not have played this one base skirmish style of TvT against Oliveira in the Katowice finals on given that he was almost certainly going to have a major edge in the mid and late game. But in general strategies involve calculated risk so they don’t always pan out.
I agree with some of the above with a few comments.
It's not clear to me that Maru "never had Byun-level micro skills" - I've watched many Byun's old reaper micro vids and I didn't find them more impressive than Maru's current level. Byun pioneered it, but Maru became just as good. It's possible that the pre-nerf power of the reapers contributed to the impression that Byun made better of them. For units other than reapers, I believe Maru's micro is better than Byun's e.g. his control of marines in proxy racks plays. In TvT early skirmishes, these two are comparable and Maru perhaps has a slight edge.
Maru micro isnt as "flashy", as in he would continuous drop/undrop a Cyclone to deal mitigated damage on the opponent, or making Reaper "juke" move that escape the ling surround, I think Byun and Clem are better than him at this. But Maru would focus his energy on making great macro timing, doesnt miss upgrade, setting up units, making the right in-game decision. I think those are more important than the simple "micro" of the units, like I dont care how good you micro the Medivac drop, you cant stop a Viking/Raven - Tank combo if you dont have the right units. Terran is about efficiency, and Maru has been the most efficient at playing it for a while now imo.
On May 12 2024 05:47 Starcloud wrote: It would be more interesting to have an article with wondering the reasons why Maru is so dominate in the first place. Maybe have an interview or two from his rivals even. Now this feels more like an additional explanation for his number one position, that really doesnt actually add up anything to the case.
It's just army control. And it isn't just max army situations, it's every phase of the game, including multiple fronts.
Both He and Serral are the only players to make not only their max armies look untouchable, but also the only ones to navigate seemingly unwinnable situations if/when they ever get behind.
In Maru's case he's much more prone to making build order mistakes and suboptimal strategy decisions. He overcomes this by being able to identify and execute in situations where other players might not be able to do either.
Worth noting I still think Serral is the best overall since his play is much more suffocating as he doesn't make near as mistakes. As for the interviews there have been a handful and they've all pretty much mirrored this thinking.
I’m not sure it’s this simple. “Strategy” in RTS often comes down to pre-game decisions on what builds, tech/army comp, and timing attacks you want to go for, mixed in with some in-game decisions on the same. I actually don’t think there’s anyone better at the strategy component than Maru, other than maybe Rogue, who somehow can soul read his opponents and craft strategies that perfectly counter them.
Perhaps somewhat of a hot take, but Serral only really got good at the “strategy” component of the game in the last couple of years. He had gotten by for so long on near flawless execution that it wasn’t until he was regularly dropping series to Clem and Reynor that he realized he needed to start mixing in cheeses, all-ins, high-risk backstabs, etc. It is a testament to how great Serral is that he was able to adapt so perfectly, but also revealing that he resisted it for so long.
Maru’s execution I don’t think has ever been on Serral’s level. But it’s always been very good. The thing is, I think people confuse Maru’s old cheesy play with being a younger, faster, more aggressive player, but if you listen to Day9 dailies from like over 10 years ago he explains how these were actually strategic plays. A “normal” player would cut their losses after the 3rd medivac full of mines gets shot down, but Maru calculates (almost always correctly) that this particular opponent (e.g. Myungsik or Neeb, to think of a couple games off the top) will be so distracted and fearful of additional mine drops that Maru can safely macro to a winning position. His 2018 proxy play was a similar concept. Yes once every few games he would do game ending damage and this was an important part of the calculus, but it was much more about disrupting the opponent’s play and taking control of the game.
It is true that Maru has very good control, which is what makes a lot of these strategies possible. But he never had Byun-level micro skills (there are old interviews of Maru saying he tried so hard to copy Byun’s reaper micro and couldn’t do it). And yet it is amazing that Maru went from aggro proxy Terran to turtle Terran in such a short period of time. In that time, he also showed how mech could be good against Zerg (and even Protoss!). He added some of the most incredible comebacks to the game’s history off great execution for sure, but more importantly impeccable strategic decision-making and game sense regarding the position he was in and what the perfect response needed to be. Serral almost never makes enough mistakes to end up in these kinds of desperate positions, but when he does, he often just executes his defense perfectly until the other guy throws away their winning position.
The thing is, SC2 is primarily a game about who executes “better” and I don’t think I’ve ever seen a player execute as well as Serral (except maybe Clem on his best days). Mvp, TY, SOS, and Rogue I felt maybe had the best strategic understanding of the game for their races, but Maru I think has maybe surpassed TY in the last few years. This is why I think Maru is so good at GSL. He is just very good at preparing strategies that can work against specific opponents, but then also has that unique ability to pull it back quite often even if his strategy doesn’t pan out. And yet Flash is maybe the only gamer who can reliably overcome an execution skill deficit with his superior strategic understanding of the game (as he demonstrated with his incredible Random run in ASL).
The thing is with these strategic players, your decisions are not always going to work out and then it’s easy to say these were “mistakes”. In some cases, they are just strategic mistakes. For example, Maru should not have played this one base skirmish style of TvT against Oliveira in the Katowice finals on given that he was almost certainly going to have a major edge in the mid and late game. But in general strategies involve calculated risk so they don’t always pan out.
I agree with some of the above with a few comments.
It's not clear to me that Maru "never had Byun-level micro skills" - I've watched many Byun's old reaper micro vids and I didn't find them more impressive than Maru's current level. Byun pioneered it, but Maru became just as good. It's possible that the pre-nerf power of the reapers contributed to the impression that Byun made better of them. For units other than reapers, I believe Maru's micro is better than Byun's e.g. his control of marines in proxy racks plays. In TvT early skirmishes, these two are comparable and Maru perhaps has a slight edge.
Maru micro isnt as "flashy", as in he would continuous drop/undrop a Cyclone to deal mitigated damage on the opponent, or making Reaper "juke" move that escape the ling surround, I think Byun and Clem are better than him at this. But Maru would focus his energy on making great macro timing, doesnt miss upgrade, setting up units, making the right in-game decision. I think those are more important than the simple "micro" of the units, like I dont care how good you micro the Medivac drop, you cant stop a Viking/Raven - Tank combo if you dont have the right units. Terran is about efficiency, and Maru has been the most efficient at playing it for a while now imo.
The thing about Maru is that he's changed tremendously during his career. When he won OSL in 2013, he was viewed as a "cheesy micro player". Two years later-he's the second best macro terran (behind INnoVation(and possibly TaeJa)) and he wins SSL
I've always thought these videos are very reflective of the game at a time. Terrans were splitting, controlling small groups (or individual groups) in small/medium fight and stutter stepping like crazy.
It's fair to say that Maru had the best micro among Terran in the world by summer/fall 2013. I know watching the Maru/Dear games at the end of that year is ancient history at this point, but the stuff they were doing was groundbreaking. To say we had never seen people do the things they did would be an understatement.
There are links to the rest of the games from that series in the spoiled section
ByuN micro is very good, in the sense that he is able to be super cost efficient. People are mocking his splits but they fail to understand that what matters is being cost efficient with your actions, not splitting for the beauty of it.
ByuN is still a monster in that regard, even though lots of casuals don’t seem to grasp it. They are the same casuals that think Zest’s macro is bad because he floats money, not realizing it’s usually by choice.
On May 23 2024 03:56 Poopi wrote: ByuN micro is very good, in the sense that he is able to be super cost efficient. People are mocking his splits but they fail to understand that what matters is being cost efficient with your actions, not splitting for the beauty of it.
ByuN is still a monster in that regard, even though lots of casuals don’t seem to grasp it. They are the same casuals that think Zest’s macro is bad because he floats money, not realizing it’s usually by choice.
ByuN's micro is fine, He's very good at controlling small groups of units (which makes sense given his success with reapers and the 2/1/1). Other than that, he's slightly above average.
On May 23 2024 03:56 Poopi wrote: ByuN micro is very good, in the sense that he is able to be super cost efficient. People are mocking his splits but they fail to understand that what matters is being cost efficient with your actions, not splitting for the beauty of it.
ByuN is still a monster in that regard, even though lots of casuals don’t seem to grasp it. They are the same casuals that think Zest’s macro is bad because he floats money, not realizing it’s usually by choice.
ByuN's micro is fine, He's very good at controlling small groups of units (which makes sense given his success with reapers and the 2/1/1). Other than that, he's slightly above average.
He is better with small groups of units compared to large armies indeed. But he axes his play even in TvT around that, and somehow makes it work more often than not
Which player would you use as baseline for « average » though? If you mean someone like HeroMarine, I agree. If you mean random GM terrans, I don’t really agree
On May 23 2024 03:56 Poopi wrote: ByuN micro is very good, in the sense that he is able to be super cost efficient. People are mocking his splits but they fail to understand that what matters is being cost efficient with your actions, not splitting for the beauty of it.
ByuN is still a monster in that regard, even though lots of casuals don’t seem to grasp it. They are the same casuals that think Zest’s macro is bad because he floats money, not realizing it’s usually by choice.
ByuN's micro is fine, He's very good at controlling small groups of units (which makes sense given his success with reapers and the 2/1/1). Other than that, he's slightly above average.
He is better with small groups of units compared to large armies indeed. But he axes his play even in TvT around that, and somehow makes it work more often than not
Which player would you use as baseline for « average » though? If you mean someone like HeroMarine, I agree. If you mean random GM terrans, I don’t really agree
When it comes to Code S, ByuN is pretty reliable. He makes the Round of 8 pretty regularly, but he's only made it past that stage once since 2016. It's pretty clear that ByuN reliably beats the players he should, but he's inarguably worse than the Dark, Maru, herO, Cure type players who win/reach the finals. That being said, ByuN is extremely likely to reach the second round and finish in the top half of participants of any given tournaments, so he's certainly not average. Whether you use the word "above average" or "good", it's all describing the same thing.
On May 22 2024 21:48 rwala wrote: It is true that Maru has very good control, which is what makes a lot of these strategies possible. But he never had Byun-level micro skills (there are old interviews of Maru saying he tried so hard to copy Byun’s reaper micro and couldn’t do it).
You are citing a 12 month period (mid 2016-mid 2017) during which ByuN had the undisputed best REAPER control in the world (the unit was nerfed soon after and ByuN became a slightly above average Terran who hasn't won a premier event in eight years).
ByuN could micro one unit (reaper) and snipe slow banelings off creep when doing the 2/1/1. His splits are awful and he falls apart when he has to pay attention to an army and multiple defensive positions (this is a theme going back to 2016).
Take any other period of time, or any other Terran unit and it's clear that Maru's micro is vastly superior, or on par, with anyone to have played SC2. It's not even a discussion.
It’s enough of a discussion that I’m sharing the opinion of other GM-level players and casters that have discussed it (I’m not good enough to judge). But no matter, my argument here does not rest or fall on this point. I agree Maru’s micro is very good and among the best in the game.
On May 12 2024 05:47 Starcloud wrote: It would be more interesting to have an article with wondering the reasons why Maru is so dominate in the first place. Maybe have an interview or two from his rivals even. Now this feels more like an additional explanation for his number one position, that really doesnt actually add up anything to the case.
It's just army control. And it isn't just max army situations, it's every phase of the game, including multiple fronts.
Both He and Serral are the only players to make not only their max armies look untouchable, but also the only ones to navigate seemingly unwinnable situations if/when they ever get behind.
In Maru's case he's much more prone to making build order mistakes and suboptimal strategy decisions. He overcomes this by being able to identify and execute in situations where other players might not be able to do either.
Worth noting I still think Serral is the best overall since his play is much more suffocating as he doesn't make near as mistakes. As for the interviews there have been a handful and they've all pretty much mirrored this thinking.
I’m not sure it’s this simple. “Strategy” in RTS often comes down to pre-game decisions on what builds, tech/army comp, and timing attacks you want to go for, mixed in with some in-game decisions on the same. I actually don’t think there’s anyone better at the strategy component than Maru, other than maybe Rogue, who somehow can soul read his opponents and craft strategies that perfectly counter them.
Perhaps somewhat of a hot take, but Serral only really got good at the “strategy” component of the game in the last couple of years. He had gotten by for so long on near flawless execution that it wasn’t until he was regularly dropping series to Clem and Reynor that he realized he needed to start mixing in cheeses, all-ins, high-risk backstabs, etc. It is a testament to how great Serral is that he was able to adapt so perfectly, but also revealing that he resisted it for so long.
Maru’s execution I don’t think has ever been on Serral’s level. But it’s always been very good. The thing is, I think people confuse Maru’s old cheesy play with being a younger, faster, more aggressive player, but if you listen to Day9 dailies from like over 10 years ago he explains how these were actually strategic plays. A “normal” player would cut their losses after the 3rd medivac full of mines gets shot down, but Maru calculates (almost always correctly) that this particular opponent (e.g. Myungsik or Neeb, to think of a couple games off the top) will be so distracted and fearful of additional mine drops that Maru can safely macro to a winning position. His 2018 proxy play was a similar concept. Yes once every few games he would do game ending damage and this was an important part of the calculus, but it was much more about disrupting the opponent’s play and taking control of the game.
It is true that Maru has very good control, which is what makes a lot of these strategies possible. But he never had Byun-level micro skills (there are old interviews of Maru saying he tried so hard to copy Byun’s reaper micro and couldn’t do it). And yet it is amazing that Maru went from aggro proxy Terran to turtle Terran in such a short period of time. In that time, he also showed how mech could be good against Zerg (and even Protoss!). He added some of the most incredible comebacks to the game’s history off great execution for sure, but more importantly impeccable strategic decision-making and game sense regarding the position he was in and what the perfect response needed to be. Serral almost never makes enough mistakes to end up in these kinds of desperate positions, but when he does, he often just executes his defense perfectly until the other guy throws away their winning position.
The thing is, SC2 is primarily a game about who executes “better” and I don’t think I’ve ever seen a player execute as well as Serral (except maybe Clem on his best days). Mvp, TY, SOS, and Rogue I felt maybe had the best strategic understanding of the game for their races, but Maru I think has maybe surpassed TY in the last few years. This is why I think Maru is so good at GSL. He is just very good at preparing strategies that can work against specific opponents, but then also has that unique ability to pull it back quite often even if his strategy doesn’t pan out. And yet Flash is maybe the only gamer who can reliably overcome an execution skill deficit with his superior strategic understanding of the game (as he demonstrated with his incredible Random run in ASL).
The thing is with these strategic players, your decisions are not always going to work out and then it’s easy to say these were “mistakes”. In some cases, they are just strategic mistakes. For example, Maru should not have played this one base skirmish style of TvT against Oliveira in the Katowice finals on given that he was almost certainly going to have a major edge in the mid and late game. But in general strategies involve calculated risk so they don’t always pan out.
I agree with some of the above with a few comments.
It's not clear to me that Maru "never had Byun-level micro skills" - I've watched many Byun's old reaper micro vids and I didn't find them more impressive than Maru's current level. Byun pioneered it, but Maru became just as good. It's possible that the pre-nerf power of the reapers contributed to the impression that Byun made better of them. For units other than reapers, I believe Maru's micro is better than Byun's e.g. his control of marines in proxy racks plays. In TvT early skirmishes, these two are comparable and Maru perhaps has a slight edge.
Serral is indeed very solid in executing. However I would also say this stability is at least partially due to 1) Zerg play being more forgiving when it comes to the likelihood/impact of mistakes, and 2) sticking to a proven playbook.
When a team of ghosts gets fungaled, or a clumped up ball of marines doesn't split in time and gets blown up by banes, the game is often over for the Terran because it takes too long/too much to replace these units. Miss a nydus at your home base? Your production is gone and again GG. The margin of error is quite small. In contrast for a Zerg - didn't control banes perfectly? That's OK as long as they didn't all get blown up and trade well enough. Didn't control lings during back-stabbing? That's OK they will auto attack and can be replaced quickly. Lost some infestors that got spotted? No problem just make more with your superior economy. I'm simplifying a bit but hopefully you get the idea.
I talked about the playbook in another post so won't repeat it here.
People are getting caught up on the Byun thing, which is not really my main point. I was just throwing out an example of a player that has historically relied a bit more on micro and execution and it’s apropos and amusing that Maru himself said he was jealous that he couldn’t make it work. But you can pick Clem then, or Serral, etc. Maru’s micro is very good and precise for sure, I’m not disputing that but I also tend to listen to players and Reynor and Serral do not want to play against Clem with mines or multi-prong and they do not want to play against Maru in late game. This is probably all you really need to know.
To get people to chill and not feel like I’m dissing Maru, I have my own personal list of favorite Maru micro moments. When he sniped an adept with a reaper dancing around a nexus (against SOS I think it was). When he used basically used war prismesque drop micro with cyclones in medivacs to kill a bunch of TY’s tanks and workers to win his 3rd GSL in 2018. Recently some Zerg (maybe Lambo?) was trying to all-in him and he kept building and canceling a bunker to block the lings from getting in. Once against Clem I think he stole the guys tech lab with a proxied barracks and messed up his build. He once salvaged a lost position against Solar basically with two cyclones that each had like 30+ kills or something. Maru is sick, for sure.
On May 23 2024 08:20 rwala wrote: To get people to chill and not feel like I’m dissing Maru, I have my own personal list of favorite Maru micro moments. When he sniped an adept with a reaper dancing around a nexus (against SOS I think it was). When he used basically used war prismesque drop micro with cyclones in medivacs to kill a bunch of TY’s tanks and workers to win his 3rd GSL in 2018. Recently some Zerg (maybe Lambo?) was trying to all-in him and he kept building and canceling a bunker to block the lings from getting in. Once against Clem I think he stole the guys tech lab with a proxied barracks and messed up his build. He once salvaged a lost position against Solar basically with two cyclones that each had like 30+ kills or something. Maru is sick, for sure.
Maru had incredible micro throughout his career. He started as the heir of MKP, and slowly evolved his game. I am not sure if he had to adapt his style lately because of his shoulder issues, or if he feels like playing fast paced Terran isn’t that good anymore, but what Clem does (albeit impressive), Maru did as well back then. Multiple times he redefined what we thought was possible in that regard.
What is also impressive in his defensive setup, is often his ability to « know » when to expand / defend / which buildings to place in what order, without having other people showing him the way. It’s probably actually him (with the help of Ryung for tests?) who thinks about the sim city / building order to make the different defensive styles work, in precise ways.
It might seem « easy » at first glance, but he was the only player for a long time who really knew how to play that style properly
On May 23 2024 03:56 Poopi wrote: ByuN micro is very good, in the sense that he is able to be super cost efficient. People are mocking his splits but they fail to understand that what matters is being cost efficient with your actions, not splitting for the beauty of it.
ByuN is still a monster in that regard, even though lots of casuals don’t seem to grasp it. They are the same casuals that think Zest’s macro is bad because he floats money, not realizing it’s usually by choice.
ByuN's micro is fine, He's very good at controlling small groups of units (which makes sense given his success with reapers and the 2/1/1). Other than that, he's slightly above average.
He is better with small groups of units compared to large armies indeed. But he axes his play even in TvT around that, and somehow makes it work more often than not
Which player would you use as baseline for « average » though? If you mean someone like HeroMarine, I agree. If you mean random GM terrans, I don’t really agree
When it comes to Code S, ByuN is pretty reliable. He makes the Round of 8 pretty regularly, but he's only made it past that stage once since 2016. It's pretty clear that ByuN reliably beats the players he should, but he's inarguably worse than the Dark, Maru, herO, Cure type players who win/reach the finals. That being said, ByuN is extremely likely to reach the second round and finish in the top half of participants of any given tournaments, so he's certainly not average. Whether you use the word "above average" or "good", it's all describing the same thing.
He’s a strange player that Byun, one of the better years and especially storylines we’ve seen for a relatively fleeting moment, but relatively middle of the pack for much of the rest of his career.
On May 23 2024 15:30 WombaT wrote: He’s a strange player that Byun, one of the better years and especially storylines we’ve seen for a relatively fleeting moment, but relatively middle of the pack for much of the rest of his career.
There's a rather unsavory word that starts with p that describes this phenomena.
On May 23 2024 03:56 Poopi wrote: ByuN micro is very good, in the sense that he is able to be super cost efficient. People are mocking his splits but they fail to understand that what matters is being cost efficient with your actions, not splitting for the beauty of it.
ByuN is still a monster in that regard, even though lots of casuals don’t seem to grasp it. They are the same casuals that think Zest’s macro is bad because he floats money, not realizing it’s usually by choice.
ByuN's micro is fine, He's very good at controlling small groups of units (which makes sense given his success with reapers and the 2/1/1). Other than that, he's slightly above average.
He is better with small groups of units compared to large armies indeed. But he axes his play even in TvT around that, and somehow makes it work more often than not
Which player would you use as baseline for « average » though? If you mean someone like HeroMarine, I agree. If you mean random GM terrans, I don’t really agree
When it comes to Code S, ByuN is pretty reliable. He makes the Round of 8 pretty regularly, but he's only made it past that stage once since 2016. It's pretty clear that ByuN reliably beats the players he should, but he's inarguably worse than the Dark, Maru, herO, Cure type players who win/reach the finals. That being said, ByuN is extremely likely to reach the second round and finish in the top half of participants of any given tournaments, so he's certainly not average. Whether you use the word "above average" or "good", it's all describing the same thing.
He’s a strange player that Byun, one of the better years and especially storylines we’ve seen for a relatively fleeting moment, but relatively middle of the pack for much of the rest of his career.
Still, bloody fun to watch nonetheless!
There were several times where he was destroying Cure and Dark in bo5 until his wrist pain prevented him for finishing the job. ByuN is imo on the same tier as TY in terms of LotV terrans, which is not bad per se. Of course, INno and Maru are above everyone else but being top 4 LotV terran isn't bad
I never thought I would have to defend Maru's micro, it's a bit like defending MJ's fade-away, but here's one of the many games where he showed me what I hadn't seen before (from 05:53):
On May 23 2024 03:56 Poopi wrote: ByuN micro is very good, in the sense that he is able to be super cost efficient. People are mocking his splits but they fail to understand that what matters is being cost efficient with your actions, not splitting for the beauty of it.
ByuN is still a monster in that regard, even though lots of casuals don’t seem to grasp it. They are the same casuals that think Zest’s macro is bad because he floats money, not realizing it’s usually by choice.
ByuN's micro is fine, He's very good at controlling small groups of units (which makes sense given his success with reapers and the 2/1/1). Other than that, he's slightly above average.
He is better with small groups of units compared to large armies indeed. But he axes his play even in TvT around that, and somehow makes it work more often than not
Which player would you use as baseline for « average » though? If you mean someone like HeroMarine, I agree. If you mean random GM terrans, I don’t really agree
When it comes to Code S, ByuN is pretty reliable. He makes the Round of 8 pretty regularly, but he's only made it past that stage once since 2016. It's pretty clear that ByuN reliably beats the players he should, but he's inarguably worse than the Dark, Maru, herO, Cure type players who win/reach the finals. That being said, ByuN is extremely likely to reach the second round and finish in the top half of participants of any given tournaments, so he's certainly not average. Whether you use the word "above average" or "good", it's all describing the same thing.
He’s a strange player that Byun, one of the better years and especially storylines we’ve seen for a relatively fleeting moment, but relatively middle of the pack for much of the rest of his career.
Still, bloody fun to watch nonetheless!
There were several times where he was destroying Cure and Dark in bo5 until his wrist pain prevented him for finishing the job. ByuN is imo on the same tier as TY in terms of LotV terrans, which is not bad per se. Of course, INno and Maru are above everyone else but being top 4 LotV terran isn't bad
I think Cure is better and I'd maybe take Clem over him ever since modern LOTV (2017). I don't think you can account for someone's physical issue (especially one that seemed more stress-based), we only have actual results to judge him and ever since they removed the tankivack and the super-reapers they haven't been that great,
The issue with Byun, outside of the wrist, is his lack of willingness to play high-tech units. Hes a Tank-Bio guy and would stick to that for too long at times. His early and mid game are top tier, but he fell behind in lategame against higher tech army from the opponent.
On May 19 2024 20:21 Nasigil1 wrote: No one is denying Maru's greatness in Korea. Winning more GSL will only help his case against almost everyone else in the history. It's only a problem when you are talking about the comparison to Serral. Because the entire roster of GSL, including Maru himself, has been dominated by Serral on international stage for years. If I want to be mean, I could even say GSL at this point is a group therapy session for players that can't beat Serral.
In theory, a player like Serral shouldn't even exist. A more competitive environment should logically produce better players. Imagine a European country with no NBA players defeats team USA on basketball most of the time they meet on international stage. It's not even small sample size, they play each other dozens of times every year and team USA lost 80% of the time. In this case, what's the point of talking about glorious rich history of NBA itself anymore? You can argue about small rule difference or 3 point line distance all you want, but the skill gap is obvious and hard to deny
It doesn't make sense, but that's what we have now. You can talk about Maru's greatness in GSL all you want, but it doesn't mean much when you keep getting swept by Serral.
I've talked about balance enough that I don't want to repeat myself anymore, but I've gone from being puzzled to being suspicious that there's a conscious effort to keep Zerg advantaged, whatever the motive might be. [...] Hell they can't even resist the urge to increase fungal range when it's more obvious than ever that it's OP!
Wait, are you an actual believer in the reality of the Zerg cabal? Like, do you unironically "suspect" there is an ominous "they" with the inexplicable desire to "keep Zerg advantaged"?
This is hilarious. If so, how do you reconcile it with the fact that Serral is as much of an outlier among Zerg players as he is among the general player basis? No other currently active zerg, not Reynor, not Dark, not Solar, comes even close to Serral in terms of results. The most interesting thing that has happened to Zerg since Serral has commenced his military service is Reynor bombing out of GSL. Also, how do you reconcile it with the fact that the magical infestor, a unit you believe "it's more obvious than ever that it's OP", barely has any out-of-the-ordinary, let alone "overpowered" impact in any game not played by Serral?
Serral being an outlier among Zerg is only a relatively recent thing for the last ~1.5 years. From 2018-2022 there was almost always another Zerg doing as well or in some time frames even better than him
The fact that on each particular occasion there may have been, out of the entirety of Zerg players, almost always another one doing as well or at times better than Serral, does not negate the fact that he was an outlier even during this period. To the contrary, it confirms it, because for the statement to even make sense you must grant the premise that out of all Zerg players, Serral has been at the top most consistently, whereas those close to him varied over time or from instance to instance (or, conversely, displayed greater variation in their own results).
The Serral fans are coming full force when Maru is dominating, I can't say I am surprised but it is still an enjoyable sight to see them defend zerg OPness over the years in order to hail Serral as a god among men
You are right, but it's just happy to see Serral crashes Maru after Maru defeating any other zerg
And it's extremely fun to see Maru fans defending their idols after being crashed by Serral over and over again. Ohh no, zergs are OP. Ohh no, maps are biased. Ohh no, Serral faced Maru when Maru is not at his 100% condition. ... Ohh no, ohh no, ohh no...
On May 21 2024 20:48 tskarzyn wrote: It's hard to call Maru the GOAT when a contemporary has a dominating record against him.
That said, I think two trends are fairly reliable.
Zerg is better in weekend tournaments. The race is built for stability: -Stable, unexploitable standard openings -superior scouting -strongest defensively (due to creep, larvae, scouting advantage, etc.) -Limited need for build variety
GSL on the other hand is built for Terran and Protoss. Each round, you are focusing on 1-2 players at most. Build variety becomes an advantage as you can tune builds to exploit specific opponents. Get past your 2 opponents? Now you have another week+ to prepare new builds for pre-determined opponents.
Throw in the fact that Koreans are playing with severe jet lag in the majority of weekenders, and it's no surprise that Serral has dominated the European scene.
TLDR: Serral is the best Zerg, Maru is the best Terran, but we will never know who the best player is.
I'd add to that that Serrals record against Maru is almost solely based on 2022-2024 as they hardly faced each other before that. I think Maru can still be the Goat despite another player being better than him for 2.5 years out of Marus 14 year career.
Of course it can never be proven but I think Serral got quite lucky he mostly avoided Maru from 2018-2021 as his ZvT back then wasn't on the level as it was in 2022-2024 and he lost multiple important series against the likes of Byun, Cure, Inno, Clem during that time
You made me laugh, "Serral avoided Maru during 2018-2021" lmao so you mean Maru was transferred to a different person right after 2021, or something else, they faced each other more frequently after 2021 and the only offline final between these 2 is IEM katowice this year, and Serral won by a sweep, that's all. From another aspect, "Maru can still be the Goat despite another player being better than him for 2.5 years out of Marus 14 year career" is also nonsense, Maru wasn't the best before 2022, Rogue is def greater than him, and during 2018-2021 he wasn't even clearly better than Serral. Plus his archive record during HOTS is not as great as Innovation or MVP from WOL, how can he become the goat for "14 years career"?
On May 24 2024 01:07 tigera6 wrote: The issue with Byun, outside of the wrist, is his lack of willingness to play high-tech units. Hes a Tank-Bio guy and would stick to that for too long at times. His early and mid game are top tier, but he fell behind in lategame against higher tech army from the opponent.
An amusing article that captures the ByuN experience.
On May 21 2024 20:48 tskarzyn wrote: It's hard to call Maru the GOAT when a contemporary has a dominating record against him.
That said, I think two trends are fairly reliable.
Zerg is better in weekend tournaments. The race is built for stability: -Stable, unexploitable standard openings -superior scouting -strongest defensively (due to creep, larvae, scouting advantage, etc.) -Limited need for build variety
GSL on the other hand is built for Terran and Protoss. Each round, you are focusing on 1-2 players at most. Build variety becomes an advantage as you can tune builds to exploit specific opponents. Get past your 2 opponents? Now you have another week+ to prepare new builds for pre-determined opponents.
Throw in the fact that Koreans are playing with severe jet lag in the majority of weekenders, and it's no surprise that Serral has dominated the European scene.
TLDR: Serral is the best Zerg, Maru is the best Terran, but we will never know who the best player is.
I'd add to that that Serrals record against Maru is almost solely based on 2022-2024 as they hardly faced each other before that. I think Maru can still be the Goat despite another player being better than him for 2.5 years out of Marus 14 year career.
Of course it can never be proven but I think Serral got quite lucky he mostly avoided Maru from 2018-2021 as his ZvT back then wasn't on the level as it was in 2022-2024 and he lost multiple important series against the likes of Byun, Cure, Inno, Clem during that time
You made me laugh, "Serral avoided Maru during 2018-2021" lmao so you mean Maru was transferred to a different person right after 2021, or something else, they faced each other more frequently after 2021 and the only offline final between these 2 is IEM katowice this year, and Serral won by a sweep, that's all. From another aspect, "Maru can still be the Goat despite another player being better than him for 2.5 years out of Marus 14 year career" is also nonsense, Maru wasn't the best before 2022, Rogue is def greater than him, and during 2018-2021 he wasn't even clearly better than Serral. Plus his archive record during HOTS is not as great as Innovation or MVP from WOL, how can he become the goat for "14 years career"?
We're comparing Maru and Serral here so Rogue/Inno etc. being better than him isn't relevant. The Serral fans argument is that Maru can't be the Goat because Serral is better than him. But Serral being clearly better than him was only the case for 2,5 years out of Marus 14 year career.
On May 23 2024 15:30 WombaT wrote: He’s a strange player that Byun, one of the better years and especially storylines we’ve seen for a relatively fleeting moment, but relatively middle of the pack for much of the rest of his career.
There's a rather unsavory word that starts with p that describes this phenomena.
On May 23 2024 15:30 WombaT wrote: He’s a strange player that Byun, one of the better years and especially storylines we’ve seen for a relatively fleeting moment, but relatively middle of the pack for much of the rest of his career.
There's a rather unsavory word that starts with p that describes this phenomena.
On May 21 2024 20:48 tskarzyn wrote: It's hard to call Maru the GOAT when a contemporary has a dominating record against him.
That said, I think two trends are fairly reliable.
Zerg is better in weekend tournaments. The race is built for stability: -Stable, unexploitable standard openings -superior scouting -strongest defensively (due to creep, larvae, scouting advantage, etc.) -Limited need for build variety
GSL on the other hand is built for Terran and Protoss. Each round, you are focusing on 1-2 players at most. Build variety becomes an advantage as you can tune builds to exploit specific opponents. Get past your 2 opponents? Now you have another week+ to prepare new builds for pre-determined opponents.
Throw in the fact that Koreans are playing with severe jet lag in the majority of weekenders, and it's no surprise that Serral has dominated the European scene.
TLDR: Serral is the best Zerg, Maru is the best Terran, but we will never know who the best player is.
I'd add to that that Serrals record against Maru is almost solely based on 2022-2024 as they hardly faced each other before that. I think Maru can still be the Goat despite another player being better than him for 2.5 years out of Marus 14 year career.
Of course it can never be proven but I think Serral got quite lucky he mostly avoided Maru from 2018-2021 as his ZvT back then wasn't on the level as it was in 2022-2024 and he lost multiple important series against the likes of Byun, Cure, Inno, Clem during that time
You made me laugh, "Serral avoided Maru during 2018-2021" lmao so you mean Maru was transferred to a different person right after 2021, or something else, they faced each other more frequently after 2021 and the only offline final between these 2 is IEM katowice this year, and Serral won by a sweep, that's all. From another aspect, "Maru can still be the Goat despite another player being better than him for 2.5 years out of Marus 14 year career" is also nonsense, Maru wasn't the best before 2022, Rogue is def greater than him, and during 2018-2021 he wasn't even clearly better than Serral. Plus his archive record during HOTS is not as great as Innovation or MVP from WOL, how can he become the goat for "14 years career"?
We're comparing Maru and Serral here so Rogue/Inno etc. being better than him isn't relevant. The Serral fans argument is that Maru can't be the Goat because Serral is better than him. But Serral being clearly better than him was only the case for 2,5 years out of Marus 14 year career.
XY has more than 17 years of Starscraft career including BW, serral only became better than XY after 2017 (when serral becomes a full time player), which is only 7 years out of 17 years of his long career. So XY should be ranked higher in list than Serral.
On May 23 2024 22:37 goldensail wrote: I never thought I would have to defend Maru's micro, it's a bit like defending MJ's fade-away, but here's one of the many games where he showed me what I hadn't seen before (from 05:53):
On May 24 2024 05:57 njleslu2024 wrote: XY has more than 17 years of Starscraft career including BW, serral only became better than XY after 2017 (when serral becomes a full time player), which is only 7 years out of 17 years of his long career. So XY should be ranked higher in list than Serral.
On May 24 2024 05:57 njleslu2024 wrote: XY has more than 17 years of Starscraft career including BW, serral only became better than XY after 2017 (when serral becomes a full time player), which is only 7 years out of 17 years of his long career. So XY should be ranked higher in list than Serral.
On May 21 2024 20:48 tskarzyn wrote: It's hard to call Maru the GOAT when a contemporary has a dominating record against him.
That said, I think two trends are fairly reliable.
Zerg is better in weekend tournaments. The race is built for stability: -Stable, unexploitable standard openings -superior scouting -strongest defensively (due to creep, larvae, scouting advantage, etc.) -Limited need for build variety
GSL on the other hand is built for Terran and Protoss. Each round, you are focusing on 1-2 players at most. Build variety becomes an advantage as you can tune builds to exploit specific opponents. Get past your 2 opponents? Now you have another week+ to prepare new builds for pre-determined opponents.
Throw in the fact that Koreans are playing with severe jet lag in the majority of weekenders, and it's no surprise that Serral has dominated the European scene.
TLDR: Serral is the best Zerg, Maru is the best Terran, but we will never know who the best player is.
I'd add to that that Serrals record against Maru is almost solely based on 2022-2024 as they hardly faced each other before that. I think Maru can still be the Goat despite another player being better than him for 2.5 years out of Marus 14 year career.
Of course it can never be proven but I think Serral got quite lucky he mostly avoided Maru from 2018-2021 as his ZvT back then wasn't on the level as it was in 2022-2024 and he lost multiple important series against the likes of Byun, Cure, Inno, Clem during that time
You made me laugh, "Serral avoided Maru during 2018-2021" lmao so you mean Maru was transferred to a different person right after 2021, or something else, they faced each other more frequently after 2021 and the only offline final between these 2 is IEM katowice this year, and Serral won by a sweep, that's all. From another aspect, "Maru can still be the Goat despite another player being better than him for 2.5 years out of Marus 14 year career" is also nonsense, Maru wasn't the best before 2022, Rogue is def greater than him, and during 2018-2021 he wasn't even clearly better than Serral. Plus his archive record during HOTS is not as great as Innovation or MVP from WOL, how can he become the goat for "14 years career"?
We're comparing Maru and Serral here so Rogue/Inno etc. being better than him isn't relevant. The Serral fans argument is that Maru can't be the Goat because Serral is better than him. But Serral being clearly better than him was only the case for 2,5 years out of Marus 14 year career.
XY has more than 17 years of Starscraft career including BW, serral only became better than XY after 2017 (when serral becomes a full time player), which is only 7 years out of 17 years of his long career. So XY should be ranked higher in list than Serral.
Shouldn't have bothered replying to a troll account. But I'm not the one saying head-to-head is the deciding factor so you don't even have an argument
On May 23 2024 22:37 goldensail wrote: I never thought I would have to defend Maru's micro, it's a bit like defending MJ's fade-away, but here's one of the many games where he showed me what I hadn't seen before (from 05:53): + Show Spoiler +
Those are amazing, thanks Especially for back then, it's pretty good micro. I remember Maru showcasing insane micro in 2017 as well, but for some reason he didn't manage yet to be successful in LotV. Since I didn't follow much of HotS, I remembered Maru as this young promising terran from Prime, and I wondered why he wasn't as successful as TY/INno/ByuN in LotV after seeing some of his TvZ games. He was displaying crazy micro and multitasking, but somehow wasn't winning the events. (at the time I saw no one else in the world display such micro, it was after ByuN's blizzcon win so probably 2017)
Then in 2018 history had been made, he found a way to just win, things started clicking for him
Those are amazing, thanks Especially for back then, it's pretty good micro. I remember Maru showcasing insane micro in 2017 as well, but for some reason he didn't manage yet to be successful in LotV. Since I didn't follow much of HotS, I remembered Maru as this young promising terran from Prime, and I wondered why he wasn't as successful as TY/INno/ByuN in LotV after seeing some of his TvZ games. He was displaying crazy micro and multitasking, but somehow wasn't winning the events. (at the time I saw no one else in the world display such micro, it was after ByuN's blizzcon win so probably 2017)
Then in 2018 history had been made, he found a way to just win, things started clicking for him
I went back to watch 2018 GSL S1 again, the RO4 between Maru and Dark was breathtaking and this was Maru with the full package - offense, defense, strategy, tactics, micro, multi-tasking - during a time when there was actually decent balance:
This and the 2020 GSL ST1 Final between Maru and Dark are two of the best TvZs I've seen. Maru's multi-tasking was insane:
Those are amazing, thanks Especially for back then, it's pretty good micro. I remember Maru showcasing insane micro in 2017 as well, but for some reason he didn't manage yet to be successful in LotV. Since I didn't follow much of HotS, I remembered Maru as this young promising terran from Prime, and I wondered why he wasn't as successful as TY/INno/ByuN in LotV after seeing some of his TvZ games. He was displaying crazy micro and multitasking, but somehow wasn't winning the events. (at the time I saw no one else in the world display such micro, it was after ByuN's blizzcon win so probably 2017)
Then in 2018 history had been made, he found a way to just win, things started clicking for him
Those are amazing, thanks Especially for back then, it's pretty good micro. I remember Maru showcasing insane micro in 2017 as well, but for some reason he didn't manage yet to be successful in LotV. Since I didn't follow much of HotS, I remembered Maru as this young promising terran from Prime, and I wondered why he wasn't as successful as TY/INno/ByuN in LotV after seeing some of his TvZ games. He was displaying crazy micro and multitasking, but somehow wasn't winning the events. (at the time I saw no one else in the world display such micro, it was after ByuN's blizzcon win so probably 2017)
Then in 2018 history had been made, he found a way to just win, things started clicking for him
While that was an exciting series, from a level-of-play perspective I feel it was not as high as the two above.
Btw as a Maru fan, I find the two World Team League 2022 Winter Code A matches between Onsyde and Invictus (liquipedia.net) a lot of fun. While they were one-sided, they did allow Maru to showcase some very entertaining micro.
On May 29 2024 00:04 Comedy wrote: keep the echo chamber rollin'
There was no echo chamber about Serral whatsoever
So, Maru is incredible in many ways, but to me what was the most impressive was his ability to do virtually impossible things, like this game vs Reynor + Show Spoiler +
He could have defended far more easily, but he thought Reynor's attack was over or something, and he would have lost the game if not for his incredible micro / defense. It made the game goes for far longer (albeit Maru was slightly ahead basically the whole game) and it provided insane entertainment in the beginning of the game (especially for those who like flashy action), and also nice and chill entertainment with a calmer macro game later on.
That ability not just to win, but to win looking like a god in the process, is what makes Maru the greatest player imho. Obviously his resume / results are incredible, but the way he plays is also pure entertainment
On May 29 2024 01:53 ZeroByte13 wrote: I guess it comes with the territory when you root for the second best Starcraft II player of all times.
You have Serral as #2 best player of all time? It's an interesting choice, personally I hesitate between #3 and #4, him or Zest. #1 I have Maru, and #2 (no it's not soO) I have INnoVation. The fact that his brother Gumayusi is also godlike in League of Legends, playing in the GOAT LoL team (hi Boxer, thank you very much for SKT) alongside the LoL GOAT Faker, finished to convince me that talent > everything in esports. Inspiration is a close 2nd, as it drives people to work hard.
Still, I have Serral as the uncontested best zerg player of all time in starcraft 2. Life doesn't hold a candle to Serral in terms of talent.
As for poor INno, he was so absurdly dominant during the early HotS days with broken hellbats, it must have felt boring. The 4-0 by Maru in that 2013 WCS KR / OSL was probably the first time he realized he just encountered the future god of Starcraft 2, similarly to the 5 gods in Super Smash Bros Melee. His WESG victory versus Serral is the time he managed to defeat the zerg god of Starcraft 2.
On May 29 2024 02:25 Poopi wrote: You have Serral as #2 best player of all time?
I referenced the Mizenhauer's list here. But I'd also say Serral is #2 or #3 behind Rogue - probably #2 as Rogue went to military service while Serral kept raking in tourney wins. If Rogue didn't leave - maybe we'd have somewhat different conversation.
Inno at his peak was just terrifying but he fell off a lot after 2018 when he basically stopped practicing. Zest is the best, and the protoss GOAT for sure, but I'd have him as #5 or #6 maybe.
On May 29 2024 02:25 Poopi wrote: You have Serral as #2 best player of all time?
I referenced the Mizenhauer's list here. But I'd also say Serral is #2 or #3 behind Rogue - probably #2 as Rogue went to military service while Serral kept raking in tourney wins. If Rogue didn't leave - maybe we'd have somewhat different conversation.
Inno at his peak was just terrifying but he fell off a lot after 2018 when he basically stopped practicing. Zest is the best, and the protoss GOAT for sure, but I'd have him as #5 or #6 maybe.
Some interesting INnoVation and Rogue content on the way (i hope it's interesting to someone other than me).
On May 29 2024 00:04 Comedy wrote: keep the echo chamber rollin'
Ah yes the echo chamber with constant disagreement and discourse in it, that one.
I mean for his defense there were like 3 or 4 posts praising one of the best sc2 players of all time for his skills, that’s more than usual for our angry boomers ,14 people forum (not my words :D
On May 29 2024 00:04 Comedy wrote: keep the echo chamber rollin'
Ah yes the echo chamber with constant disagreement and discourse in it, that one.
Eventually everyone that disagrees bows out and let's the same 8 people just talk to each other about how they're right, I have been in these threads for months now and it's always what happens, so yes, it always ends up like an echo chamber
On May 29 2024 00:04 Comedy wrote: keep the echo chamber rollin'
Ah yes the echo chamber with constant disagreement and discourse in it, that one.
Eventually everyone that disagrees bows out and let's the same 8 people just talk to each other about how they're right, I have been in these threads for months now and it's always what happens, so yes, it always ends up like an echo chamber
Hey now, the same handful of individuals writing 80% of the posts doesn't quite comprise a chamber. More like time as a flat circle.
Serral is a freak and competitive in the games, but foreigners are always gonna get bonus points purely because we see them more. EU and NA is full of cope.
That said, Mvp is the goat stuchiu was right I'm a fossil get boomed like the celtics will get boomed by the mavs mizenhauer
also posts like the ones by Pandain and Ronski in the first page are exactly what I'm talking about. Clem and Maxpax lmaooooooooooooooooooooo
On May 21 2024 20:48 tskarzyn wrote: It's hard to call Maru the GOAT when a contemporary has a dominating record against him.
That said, I think two trends are fairly reliable.
Zerg is better in weekend tournaments. The race is built for stability: -Stable, unexploitable standard openings -superior scouting -strongest defensively (due to creep, larvae, scouting advantage, etc.) -Limited need for build variety
GSL on the other hand is built for Terran and Protoss. Each round, you are focusing on 1-2 players at most. Build variety becomes an advantage as you can tune builds to exploit specific opponents. Get past your 2 opponents? Now you have another week+ to prepare new builds for pre-determined opponents.
Throw in the fact that Koreans are playing with severe jet lag in the majority of weekenders, and it's no surprise that Serral has dominated the European scene.
TLDR: Serral is the best Zerg, Maru is the best Terran, but we will never know who the best player is.
I'd add to that that Serrals record against Maru is almost solely based on 2022-2024 as they hardly faced each other before that. I think Maru can still be the Goat despite another player being better than him for 2.5 years out of Marus 14 year career.
Of course it can never be proven but I think Serral got quite lucky he mostly avoided Maru from 2018-2021 as his ZvT back then wasn't on the level as it was in 2022-2024 and he lost multiple important series against the likes of Byun, Cure, Inno, Clem during that time
Wait what? Serral got "lucky"? Maru bombed out of every tournament he entered, goat my ass. That's hardly Serrals fault that Maru was so afraid he rather took an early exit than get swept by Serral
On May 21 2024 20:48 tskarzyn wrote: It's hard to call Maru the GOAT when a contemporary has a dominating record against him.
That said, I think two trends are fairly reliable.
Zerg is better in weekend tournaments. The race is built for stability: -Stable, unexploitable standard openings -superior scouting -strongest defensively (due to creep, larvae, scouting advantage, etc.) -Limited need for build variety
GSL on the other hand is built for Terran and Protoss. Each round, you are focusing on 1-2 players at most. Build variety becomes an advantage as you can tune builds to exploit specific opponents. Get past your 2 opponents? Now you have another week+ to prepare new builds for pre-determined opponents.
Throw in the fact that Koreans are playing with severe jet lag in the majority of weekenders, and it's no surprise that Serral has dominated the European scene.
TLDR: Serral is the best Zerg, Maru is the best Terran, but we will never know who the best player is.
I'd add to that that Serrals record against Maru is almost solely based on 2022-2024 as they hardly faced each other before that. I think Maru can still be the Goat despite another player being better than him for 2.5 years out of Marus 14 year career.
Of course it can never be proven but I think Serral got quite lucky he mostly avoided Maru from 2018-2021 as his ZvT back then wasn't on the level as it was in 2022-2024 and he lost multiple important series against the likes of Byun, Cure, Inno, Clem during that time
Wait what? Serral got "lucky"? Maru bombed out of every tournament he entered, goat my ass. That's hardly Serrals fault that Maru was so afraid he rather took an early exit than get swept by Serral
It's totally fair to say that he got lucky. Read the message. It's not like ZvT prowess is particularly rewarded in the foreigner circuits anyway, since foreigner Terrans are a rare breed. Spanking Special is not the same as spanking Maru.
On May 21 2024 20:48 tskarzyn wrote: It's hard to call Maru the GOAT when a contemporary has a dominating record against him.
That said, I think two trends are fairly reliable.
Zerg is better in weekend tournaments. The race is built for stability: -Stable, unexploitable standard openings -superior scouting -strongest defensively (due to creep, larvae, scouting advantage, etc.) -Limited need for build variety
GSL on the other hand is built for Terran and Protoss. Each round, you are focusing on 1-2 players at most. Build variety becomes an advantage as you can tune builds to exploit specific opponents. Get past your 2 opponents? Now you have another week+ to prepare new builds for pre-determined opponents.
Throw in the fact that Koreans are playing with severe jet lag in the majority of weekenders, and it's no surprise that Serral has dominated the European scene.
TLDR: Serral is the best Zerg, Maru is the best Terran, but we will never know who the best player is.
I'd add to that that Serrals record against Maru is almost solely based on 2022-2024 as they hardly faced each other before that. I think Maru can still be the Goat despite another player being better than him for 2.5 years out of Marus 14 year career.
Of course it can never be proven but I think Serral got quite lucky he mostly avoided Maru from 2018-2021 as his ZvT back then wasn't on the level as it was in 2022-2024 and he lost multiple important series against the likes of Byun, Cure, Inno, Clem during that time
Wait what? Serral got "lucky"? Maru bombed out of every tournament he entered, goat my ass. That's hardly Serrals fault that Maru was so afraid he rather took an early exit than get swept by Serral
It's totally fair to say that he got lucky. Read the message. It's not like ZvT prowess is particularly rewarded in the foreigner circuits anyway, since foreigner Terrans are a rare breed. Spanking Special is not the same as spanking Maru.
He was lucky in that he was able to beat more of the players at those tournaments Much luck. How the dice rolled for him to be better.
On May 21 2024 20:48 tskarzyn wrote: It's hard to call Maru the GOAT when a contemporary has a dominating record against him.
That said, I think two trends are fairly reliable.
Zerg is better in weekend tournaments. The race is built for stability: -Stable, unexploitable standard openings -superior scouting -strongest defensively (due to creep, larvae, scouting advantage, etc.) -Limited need for build variety
GSL on the other hand is built for Terran and Protoss. Each round, you are focusing on 1-2 players at most. Build variety becomes an advantage as you can tune builds to exploit specific opponents. Get past your 2 opponents? Now you have another week+ to prepare new builds for pre-determined opponents.
Throw in the fact that Koreans are playing with severe jet lag in the majority of weekenders, and it's no surprise that Serral has dominated the European scene.
TLDR: Serral is the best Zerg, Maru is the best Terran, but we will never know who the best player is.
I'd add to that that Serrals record against Maru is almost solely based on 2022-2024 as they hardly faced each other before that. I think Maru can still be the Goat despite another player being better than him for 2.5 years out of Marus 14 year career.
Of course it can never be proven but I think Serral got quite lucky he mostly avoided Maru from 2018-2021 as his ZvT back then wasn't on the level as it was in 2022-2024 and he lost multiple important series against the likes of Byun, Cure, Inno, Clem during that time
Wait what? Serral got "lucky"? Maru bombed out of every tournament he entered, goat my ass. That's hardly Serrals fault that Maru was so afraid he rather took an early exit than get swept by Serral
It's totally fair to say that he got lucky. Read the message. It's not like ZvT prowess is particularly rewarded in the foreigner circuits anyway, since foreigner Terrans are a rare breed. Spanking Special is not the same as spanking Maru.
You mean how Serral spanked Inno in GSLvWorld18? Or won vs Taeja then spanked Bunny and then won vs Inno at HSC18? Or how he defeatet TY in GSLvWorld19? Yeah Serral got really lucky
On May 21 2024 20:48 tskarzyn wrote: It's hard to call Maru the GOAT when a contemporary has a dominating record against him.
That said, I think two trends are fairly reliable.
Zerg is better in weekend tournaments. The race is built for stability: -Stable, unexploitable standard openings -superior scouting -strongest defensively (due to creep, larvae, scouting advantage, etc.) -Limited need for build variety
GSL on the other hand is built for Terran and Protoss. Each round, you are focusing on 1-2 players at most. Build variety becomes an advantage as you can tune builds to exploit specific opponents. Get past your 2 opponents? Now you have another week+ to prepare new builds for pre-determined opponents.
Throw in the fact that Koreans are playing with severe jet lag in the majority of weekenders, and it's no surprise that Serral has dominated the European scene.
TLDR: Serral is the best Zerg, Maru is the best Terran, but we will never know who the best player is.
I'd add to that that Serrals record against Maru is almost solely based on 2022-2024 as they hardly faced each other before that. I think Maru can still be the Goat despite another player being better than him for 2.5 years out of Marus 14 year career.
Of course it can never be proven but I think Serral got quite lucky he mostly avoided Maru from 2018-2021 as his ZvT back then wasn't on the level as it was in 2022-2024 and he lost multiple important series against the likes of Byun, Cure, Inno, Clem during that time
Wait what? Serral got "lucky"? Maru bombed out of every tournament he entered, goat my ass. That's hardly Serrals fault that Maru was so afraid he rather took an early exit than get swept by Serral
Read the context... In regards to his record against Maru it is indeed 'luck' that most of their encounters fell into the period where he was most favored against him. Anyone watching the game realizes Serral significantly stepped up his ZvT from 2022 on. and it's not like Serral never lost during that period, he also had losses vs many players, the brackets just never worked out for Maru and Serral to meet each other
On May 21 2024 20:48 tskarzyn wrote: It's hard to call Maru the GOAT when a contemporary has a dominating record against him.
That said, I think two trends are fairly reliable.
Zerg is better in weekend tournaments. The race is built for stability: -Stable, unexploitable standard openings -superior scouting -strongest defensively (due to creep, larvae, scouting advantage, etc.) -Limited need for build variety
GSL on the other hand is built for Terran and Protoss. Each round, you are focusing on 1-2 players at most. Build variety becomes an advantage as you can tune builds to exploit specific opponents. Get past your 2 opponents? Now you have another week+ to prepare new builds for pre-determined opponents.
Throw in the fact that Koreans are playing with severe jet lag in the majority of weekenders, and it's no surprise that Serral has dominated the European scene.
TLDR: Serral is the best Zerg, Maru is the best Terran, but we will never know who the best player is.
I'd add to that that Serrals record against Maru is almost solely based on 2022-2024 as they hardly faced each other before that. I think Maru can still be the Goat despite another player being better than him for 2.5 years out of Marus 14 year career.
Of course it can never be proven but I think Serral got quite lucky he mostly avoided Maru from 2018-2021 as his ZvT back then wasn't on the level as it was in 2022-2024 and he lost multiple important series against the likes of Byun, Cure, Inno, Clem during that time
Wait what? Serral got "lucky"? Maru bombed out of every tournament he entered, goat my ass. That's hardly Serrals fault that Maru was so afraid he rather took an early exit than get swept by Serral
It's totally fair to say that he got lucky. Read the message. It's not like ZvT prowess is particularly rewarded in the foreigner circuits anyway, since foreigner Terrans are a rare breed. Spanking Special is not the same as spanking Maru.
You mean how Serral spanked Inno in GSLvWorld18? Or won vs Taeja then spanked Bunny and then won vs Inno at HSC18? Or how he defeatet TY in GSLvWorld19? Yeah Serral got really lucky
Yeah he won some and lost some during that period. I can also reiterate his losses vs Inno (Katowice/WESG), vs Cure 0-3 and 1-4, had a pretty bad sting of losses vs Clem, lost to fresh out of military ByuN
On May 21 2024 20:48 tskarzyn wrote: It's hard to call Maru the GOAT when a contemporary has a dominating record against him.
That said, I think two trends are fairly reliable.
Zerg is better in weekend tournaments. The race is built for stability: -Stable, unexploitable standard openings -superior scouting -strongest defensively (due to creep, larvae, scouting advantage, etc.) -Limited need for build variety
GSL on the other hand is built for Terran and Protoss. Each round, you are focusing on 1-2 players at most. Build variety becomes an advantage as you can tune builds to exploit specific opponents. Get past your 2 opponents? Now you have another week+ to prepare new builds for pre-determined opponents.
Throw in the fact that Koreans are playing with severe jet lag in the majority of weekenders, and it's no surprise that Serral has dominated the European scene.
TLDR: Serral is the best Zerg, Maru is the best Terran, but we will never know who the best player is.
I'd add to that that Serrals record against Maru is almost solely based on 2022-2024 as they hardly faced each other before that. I think Maru can still be the Goat despite another player being better than him for 2.5 years out of Marus 14 year career.
Of course it can never be proven but I think Serral got quite lucky he mostly avoided Maru from 2018-2021 as his ZvT back then wasn't on the level as it was in 2022-2024 and he lost multiple important series against the likes of Byun, Cure, Inno, Clem during that time
Wait what? Serral got "lucky"? Maru bombed out of every tournament he entered, goat my ass. That's hardly Serrals fault that Maru was so afraid he rather took an early exit than get swept by Serral
Dumbest comment I've read here. If we follow that logic: "Serral is so afraid that he never even entered a GSL. Atleast Maru showed up for the other tourneys."
I don't believe Serral wins because he's lucky. He wins because he's one of the best Zergs, possibly even the best Zerg ever if we value consistency over creativity.
However, he is lucky in that: 1. he plays Zerg when Zerg is in an extraordinarily strong period 2. competition is dwindling 3. Maru is slowly but gradually wearing out
I don't believe he would've had the same success playing Terran - he would've lagged behind Maru, Inno, Clem and likely a few others.
On May 30 2024 03:26 goldensail wrote: I don't believe Serral wins because he's lucky. He wins because he's one of the best Zergs, possibly even the best Zerg ever if we value consistency over creativity.
However, he is lucky in that: 1. he plays Zerg when Zerg is in an extraordinarily strong period 2. competition is dwindling 3. Maru is slowly but gradually wearing out
I don't believe he would've had the same success playing Terran - he would've lagged behind Maru, Inno, Clem and likely a few others.
It's just the most ridiculous thing I've read today. Saying that the best player in the world would be not even in the top5 if he played another race. The bias is just baffling. You actually deserve a ban for making such ridiculous statements but it won't happen.
This is basically to a more or lesser extent the problem with every diehard fanboy in here (Charosair, this guy, poopi, the loki guy), they're all terran players and they're letting that cloud their judgement, it's sad to see.
As for goldensail, If you honestly think Serral objectively isn't up there in skill with Maru, Inno, Clem and 'likely a few others', nothing you say can be taken serious period. You clearly don't know the game and you respect terran a lot more than anyone else because you play terran and you've convinced yourself it's the hardest race because you can't reach grandmaster. gg.
If bait, wp.
Edit : post history checks out, it's either die-hard maru fanboying, or balance whine about zerg being an OP a-move race.
On May 30 2024 03:26 goldensail wrote: I don't believe Serral wins because he's lucky. He wins because he's one of the best Zergs, possibly even the best Zerg ever if we value consistency over creativity.
However, he is lucky in that: 1. he plays Zerg when Zerg is in an extraordinarily strong period 2. competition is dwindling 3. Maru is slowly but gradually wearing out
I don't believe he would've had the same success playing Terran - he would've lagged behind Maru, Inno, Clem and likely a few others.
I always appreciate opinions with zero factual basis to them.
For 1 Zerg being strong from 2018-2022 is pretty obvious by basically every metric. For most of those years Zerg won the most events even if you subtract Serral's wins altogether. 2023 forward is less clear.
For 2 competition is definitely less than it once was. We've gone from hundreds of full time pros to 20-30. Several KR pros outright state they practice less than in the past. Even with a rising skill level (which I find debatable) it's still easier to win events when there are only 30 other full time players around.
For 3 Maru has said he considers himself worse post injury. I'll take his own opinion over the weird idea I've seen here and on SCreddit so much that people's skill at an activity never stops going up as long as they do it actively. The need to believe that Serral is an undisputable goat or that modern sc2 is the peak is so weird that people are ignoring how human skill at every other activity besides SC2 works. People plateau, have natural time frames where skill will wane, get injured, lose motivation, age and get slower etc and amy of those things can result in a declining skill level even if they are still participating in whatever activity it is. This applies to everything from sports, games, work, music, art, and more. Skill improvement isn't a linear thing even with consistent effort over a long time span.
On May 30 2024 05:07 JJH777 wrote: How do those have no factual basis?
For 1 Zerg being strong from 2018-2022 is pretty obvious by basically every metric. For most of those years Zerg won the most events even if you subtract Serral's wins altogether. 2023 forward is less clear.
For 2 competition is definitely less than it once was. We've gone from hundreds of full time pros to 20-30. Several KR pros outright state they practice less than in the past. Even with a rising skill level (which I find debatable) it's still easier to win events when there are only 30 other full time players around.
For 3 Maru has said he considers himself worse post injury. I'll take his own opinion over the weird idea I've seen here and on SCreddit so much that people's skill at an activity never stops going up as long as they do it actively. The need to believe that Serral is an undisputable goat or that modern sc2 is the peak is so weird that people are ignoring how human skill at every other activity besides SC2 works. People plateau, have natural time frames where skill will wane, get injured, lose motivation, age and get slower etc and amy of those things can result in a declining skill level even if they are still participating in whatever activity it is. This applies to everything from sports, games, work, music, art, and more. Skill improvement isn't a linear thing even with consistent effort over a long time span.
I've personally spoken to pro players who said Serral's mechanics are so good that it doesn't matter what race he plays.
The entire reduction of players thing is sorely misunderstood and requires a lot more words than I care to expend. The important thing to ask yourself is this, "would Maru have won less events because Terminator or Trust or Hush or SkyHigh or the dozens of other irrelevant players who don't play anymore. Group A has the first and second best Terran player in the world. Group B has a multiple time world champion and a top 2 Protoss. That's kinda been business as usual for a decade.
I don't need you to tell me about Maru's injury because you actually don't know anything about his actual condition. It's clear that Maru has had a number of injuries and, as a result, poor finishes. But, to address your lengthy diatribe, The whole "People plateau, have natural time frames where skill will wane, get injured, lose motivation, age and get slower etc and any of those things can result in a declining skill level even if they are still participating in whatever activity it is." Applies to Serral as well. He's had some lengthy periods where he didn't meet his standard. He has aged. The wear and tear that comes with Sc2 also applies to him. How do you know he's always super motivated the play?
All of your stuff is conjecture because you can't quantify how much Maru's injuries impact him. You can't quantify the impact of all but the best Koreans retiring because the b-teamers couldn't afford to keep going. You also can't quantify the effect balance had on any player. Instead you can vaguely insinuate that these things are tree because they seem reasonable enough that most will believe them without examination.
On May 30 2024 03:26 goldensail wrote: I don't believe Serral wins because he's lucky. He wins because he's one of the best Zergs, possibly even the best Zerg ever if we value consistency over creativity.
However, he is lucky in that: 1. he plays Zerg when Zerg is in an extraordinarily strong period 2. competition is dwindling 3. Maru is slowly but gradually wearing out
I don't believe he would've had the same success playing Terran - he would've lagged behind Maru, Inno, Clem and likely a few others.
I always appreciate opinions with zero factual basis to them.
Well that's why it's qualified with "I don't believe" i.e. presented as opinion as opposed to fact.
But if you don't agree, tell me which of these Terran players would Serral have been better than, had he played the race.
On May 30 2024 03:26 goldensail wrote: I don't believe Serral wins because he's lucky. He wins because he's one of the best Zergs, possibly even the best Zerg ever if we value consistency over creativity.
However, he is lucky in that: 1. he plays Zerg when Zerg is in an extraordinarily strong period 2. competition is dwindling 3. Maru is slowly but gradually wearing out
I don't believe he would've had the same success playing Terran - he would've lagged behind Maru, Inno, Clem and likely a few others.
It's just the most ridiculous thing I've read today. Saying that the best player in the world would be not even in the top5 if he played another race. The bias is just baffling. You actually deserve a ban for making such ridiculous statements but it won't happen.
This is basically to a more or lesser extent the problem with every diehard fanboy in here (Charosair, this guy, poopi, the loki guy), they're all terran players and they're letting that cloud their judgement, it's sad to see.
As for goldensail, If you honestly think Serral objectively isn't up there in skill with Maru, Inno, Clem and 'likely a few others', nothing you say can be taken serious period. You clearly don't know the game and you respect terran a lot more than anyone else because you play terran and you've convinced yourself it's the hardest race because you can't reach grandmaster. gg.
If bait, wp.
Edit : post history checks out, it's either die-hard maru fanboying, or balance whine about zerg being an OP a-move race.
LOL basically if I don't agree with you then "nothing you say can be taken serious period" and I "deserve a ban". Calm down buddy.
On May 30 2024 05:07 JJH777 wrote: How do those have no factual basis?
For 1 Zerg being strong from 2018-2022 is pretty obvious by basically every metric. For most of those years Zerg won the most events even if you subtract Serral's wins altogether. 2023 forward is less clear.
For 2 competition is definitely less than it once was. We've gone from hundreds of full time pros to 20-30. Several KR pros outright state they practice less than in the past. Even with a rising skill level (which I find debatable) it's still easier to win events when there are only 30 other full time players around.
For 3 Maru has said he considers himself worse post injury. I'll take his own opinion over the weird idea I've seen here and on SCreddit so much that people's skill at an activity never stops going up as long as they do it actively. The need to believe that Serral is an undisputable goat or that modern sc2 is the peak is so weird that people are ignoring how human skill at every other activity besides SC2 works. People plateau, have natural time frames where skill will wane, get injured, lose motivation, age and get slower etc and amy of those things can result in a declining skill level even if they are still participating in whatever activity it is. This applies to everything from sports, games, work, music, art, and more. Skill improvement isn't a linear thing even with consistent effort over a long time span.
I've personally spoken to pro players who said Serral's mechanics are so good that it doesn't matter what race he plays.
The entire reduction of players thing is sorely misunderstood and requires a lot more words than I care to expend. The important thing to ask yourself is this, "would Maru have won less events because Terminator or Trust or Hush or SkyHigh or the dozens of other irrelevant players who don't play anymore. Group A has the first and second best Terran player in the world. Group B has a multiple time world champion and a top 2 Protoss. That's kinda been business as usual for a decade.
I don't need you to tell me about Maru's injury because you actually don't know anything about his actual condition. It's clear that Maru has had a number of injuries and, as a result, poor finishes. But, to address your lengthy diatribe, The whole "People plateau, have natural time frames where skill will wane, get injured, lose motivation, age and get slower etc and any of those things can result in a declining skill level even if they are still participating in whatever activity it is." Applies to Serral as well. He's had some lengthy periods where he didn't meet his standard. He has aged. The wear and tear that comes with Sc2 also applies to him. How do you know he's always super motivated the play?
All of your stuff is conjecture because you can't quantify how much Maru's injuries impact him. You can't quantify the impact of all but the best Koreans retiring because the b-teamers couldn't afford to keep going. You also can't quantify the effect balance had on any player. Instead you can vaguely insinuate that these things are tree because they seem reasonable enough that most will believe them without examination.
Yeah it applies to Serral as well, but he entered the scene way later than any other top player which is a huge advantage because it's easier to keep your motivation high and your body healthy for 5 years than to do it for 10 years.
"would Maru have won less events because Terminator or Trust or Hush or SkyHigh or the dozens of other irrelevant players who don't play anymore.
Another way to phrase it would be: " would Maru have won less events if Inno, TY, Flash, MMA, TaeJa, Stats, PartinG, Rain, Classic, sOs, herO, Zest, Dear, soO, Life, ByuL would all still be playing and at their peak?" To which the answer is a definitive yes. It's not a coincidence that back then repeat champions were extremely rare and even the best players could get eliminated in the ro32.
On May 30 2024 03:26 goldensail wrote: I don't believe Serral wins because he's lucky. He wins because he's one of the best Zergs, possibly even the best Zerg ever if we value consistency over creativity.
However, he is lucky in that: 1. he plays Zerg when Zerg is in an extraordinarily strong period 2. competition is dwindling 3. Maru is slowly but gradually wearing out
I don't believe he would've had the same success playing Terran - he would've lagged behind Maru, Inno, Clem and likely a few others.
It's just the most ridiculous thing I've read today. Saying that the best player in the world would be not even in the top5 if he played another race. The bias is just baffling. You actually deserve a ban for making such ridiculous statements but it won't happen.
This is basically to a more or lesser extent the problem with every diehard fanboy in here (Charosair, this guy, poopi, the loki guy), they're all terran players and they're letting that cloud their judgement, it's sad to see.
As for goldensail, If you honestly think Serral objectively isn't up there in skill with Maru, Inno, Clem and 'likely a few others', nothing you say can be taken serious period. You clearly don't know the game and you respect terran a lot more than anyone else because you play terran and you've convinced yourself it's the hardest race because you can't reach grandmaster. gg.
If bait, wp.
Edit : post history checks out, it's either die-hard maru fanboying, or balance whine about zerg being an OP a-move race.
LOL basically if I don't agree with you then "nothing you say can be taken serious period" and I "deserve a ban". Calm down buddy.
It's just a bunch of nonsense. I'd never say something like 'If maru played another race he'd be outside of the top5 for that race, he'd be a lot worse, win way less, etc. It's straight up disrespectful. Then I check your post history and it's all whining about zerg and hardcore fanboying for Maru. You simply can't be objective.
On May 30 2024 05:07 JJH777 wrote: How do those have no factual basis?
For 1 Zerg being strong from 2018-2022 is pretty obvious by basically every metric. For most of those years Zerg won the most events even if you subtract Serral's wins altogether. 2023 forward is less clear.
For 2 competition is definitely less than it once was. We've gone from hundreds of full time pros to 20-30. Several KR pros outright state they practice less than in the past. Even with a rising skill level (which I find debatable) it's still easier to win events when there are only 30 other full time players around.
For 3 Maru has said he considers himself worse post injury. I'll take his own opinion over the weird idea I've seen here and on SCreddit so much that people's skill at an activity never stops going up as long as they do it actively. The need to believe that Serral is an undisputable goat or that modern sc2 is the peak is so weird that people are ignoring how human skill at every other activity besides SC2 works. People plateau, have natural time frames where skill will wane, get injured, lose motivation, age and get slower etc and amy of those things can result in a declining skill level even if they are still participating in whatever activity it is. This applies to everything from sports, games, work, music, art, and more. Skill improvement isn't a linear thing even with consistent effort over a long time span.
I've personally spoken to pro players who said Serral's mechanics are so good that it doesn't matter what race he plays.
The entire reduction of players thing is sorely misunderstood and requires a lot more words than I care to expend. The important thing to ask yourself is this, "would Maru have won less events because Terminator or Trust or Hush or SkyHigh or the dozens of other irrelevant players who don't play anymore. Group A has the first and second best Terran player in the world. Group B has a multiple time world champion and a top 2 Protoss. That's kinda been business as usual for a decade.
I don't need you to tell me about Maru's injury because you actually don't know anything about his actual condition. It's clear that Maru has had a number of injuries and, as a result, poor finishes. But, to address your lengthy diatribe, The whole "People plateau, have natural time frames where skill will wane, get injured, lose motivation, age and get slower etc and any of those things can result in a declining skill level even if they are still participating in whatever activity it is." Applies to Serral as well. He's had some lengthy periods where he didn't meet his standard. He has aged. The wear and tear that comes with Sc2 also applies to him. How do you know he's always super motivated the play?
All of your stuff is conjecture because you can't quantify how much Maru's injuries impact him. You can't quantify the impact of all but the best Koreans retiring because the b-teamers couldn't afford to keep going. You also can't quantify the effect balance had on any player. Instead you can vaguely insinuate that these things are tree because they seem reasonable enough that most will believe them without examination.
Yeah it applies to Serral as well, but he entered the scene way later than any other top player which is a huge advantage because it's easier to keep your motivation high and your body healthy for 5 years than to do it for 10 years.
"would Maru have won less events because Terminator or Trust or Hush or SkyHigh or the dozens of other irrelevant players who don't play anymore.
Another way to phrase it would be: " would Maru have won less events if Inno, TY, Flash, MMA, TaeJa, Stats, PartinG, Rain, Classic, sOs, herO, Zest, Dear, soO, Life, ByuL would all still be playing and at their peak?" To which the answer is a definitive yes. It's not a coincidence that back then repeat champions were extremely rare and even the best players could get eliminated in the ro32.
Serral has played the game almost as long as anyone. Forteatenly for him, he had to go to school.
The amount of those players who were in their prime at once is a joke. ByuL was only good in 2015 and for few months where mutas where playable in 2017. soO's peak ended in 2017, but he was pretty mediocre in 2015 and 2016. TY didn't reach the finals of a premier event until 2016. PartinG made the finals of 2015 but was way worse the rest of the year and never got close to that. MMA was cooked by 2015 and he was worse than Maru by 2013. Stats didn't make it to the finals of a premier event until 2016. Dear was cooked by 2018 and only really challenged for titles in 2013 and 2015. sOs was pretty miserable in Code S years not other than 2013 and 2017 (he was pretty miserable in the seasons he didn't make the finals in those years). Of course there were more big named players way back in the ol days and Maru was plenty good then as well.
I mean it’s rather obvious that Serral is a great player and can play any race at the very top. The main problem is that most people watching sc2 didn’t motivate themselves enough to reach a sufficiently decent level at some point in time, in order to truly appreciate what the players are doing
On May 30 2024 05:07 JJH777 wrote: How do those have no factual basis?
For 1 Zerg being strong from 2018-2022 is pretty obvious by basically every metric. For most of those years Zerg won the most events even if you subtract Serral's wins altogether. 2023 forward is less clear.
For 2 competition is definitely less than it once was. We've gone from hundreds of full time pros to 20-30. Several KR pros outright state they practice less than in the past. Even with a rising skill level (which I find debatable) it's still easier to win events when there are only 30 other full time players around.
For 3 Maru has said he considers himself worse post injury. I'll take his own opinion over the weird idea I've seen here and on SCreddit so much that people's skill at an activity never stops going up as long as they do it actively. The need to believe that Serral is an undisputable goat or that modern sc2 is the peak is so weird that people are ignoring how human skill at every other activity besides SC2 works. People plateau, have natural time frames where skill will wane, get injured, lose motivation, age and get slower etc and amy of those things can result in a declining skill level even if they are still participating in whatever activity it is. This applies to everything from sports, games, work, music, art, and more. Skill improvement isn't a linear thing even with consistent effort over a long time span.
I've personally spoken to pro players who said Serral's mechanics are so good that it doesn't matter what race he plays.
The entire reduction of players thing is sorely misunderstood and requires a lot more words than I care to expend. The important thing to ask yourself is this, "would Maru have won less events because Terminator or Trust or Hush or SkyHigh or the dozens of other irrelevant players who don't play anymore. Group A has the first and second best Terran player in the world. Group B has a multiple time world champion and a top 2 Protoss. That's kinda been business as usual for a decade.
I don't need you to tell me about Maru's injury because you actually don't know anything about his actual condition. It's clear that Maru has had a number of injuries and, as a result, poor finishes. But, to address your lengthy diatribe, The whole "People plateau, have natural time frames where skill will wane, get injured, lose motivation, age and get slower etc and any of those things can result in a declining skill level even if they are still participating in whatever activity it is." Applies to Serral as well. He's had some lengthy periods where he didn't meet his standard. He has aged. The wear and tear that comes with Sc2 also applies to him. How do you know he's always super motivated the play?
All of your stuff is conjecture because you can't quantify how much Maru's injuries impact him. You can't quantify the impact of all but the best Koreans retiring because the b-teamers couldn't afford to keep going. You also can't quantify the effect balance had on any player. Instead you can vaguely insinuate that these things are tree because they seem reasonable enough that most will believe them without examination.
Yeah it applies to Serral as well, but he entered the scene way later than any other top player which is a huge advantage because it's easier to keep your motivation high and your body healthy for 5 years than to do it for 10 years.
"would Maru have won less events because Terminator or Trust or Hush or SkyHigh or the dozens of other irrelevant players who don't play anymore.
Another way to phrase it would be: " would Maru have won less events if Inno, TY, Flash, MMA, TaeJa, Stats, PartinG, Rain, Classic, sOs, herO, Zest, Dear, soO, Life, ByuL would all still be playing and at their peak?" To which the answer is a definitive yes. It's not a coincidence that back then repeat champions were extremely rare and even the best players could get eliminated in the ro32.
This goes for Maru too though
Entered the scene at a very young age, so had a longer span than almost anyone, uninterrupted by military service.
Only became a prolific tournament winner in basically the same era as Serral, likewise Rogue
It’s applying a certain lens to the career of one player and not another that can get a tad irritating.
Outside of a select few, Serral’s maintained a certain level at this point for years longer than most of the top names of yesteryear.
On May 30 2024 05:07 JJH777 wrote: How do those have no factual basis?
For 1 Zerg being strong from 2018-2022 is pretty obvious by basically every metric. For most of those years Zerg won the most events even if you subtract Serral's wins altogether. 2023 forward is less clear.
For 2 competition is definitely less than it once was. We've gone from hundreds of full time pros to 20-30. Several KR pros outright state they practice less than in the past. Even with a rising skill level (which I find debatable) it's still easier to win events when there are only 30 other full time players around.
For 3 Maru has said he considers himself worse post injury. I'll take his own opinion over the weird idea I've seen here and on SCreddit so much that people's skill at an activity never stops going up as long as they do it actively. The need to believe that Serral is an undisputable goat or that modern sc2 is the peak is so weird that people are ignoring how human skill at every other activity besides SC2 works. People plateau, have natural time frames where skill will wane, get injured, lose motivation, age and get slower etc and amy of those things can result in a declining skill level even if they are still participating in whatever activity it is. This applies to everything from sports, games, work, music, art, and more. Skill improvement isn't a linear thing even with consistent effort over a long time span.
I've personally spoken to pro players who said Serral's mechanics are so good that it doesn't matter what race he plays.
The entire reduction of players thing is sorely misunderstood and requires a lot more words than I care to expend. The important thing to ask yourself is this, "would Maru have won less events because Terminator or Trust or Hush or SkyHigh or the dozens of other irrelevant players who don't play anymore. Group A has the first and second best Terran player in the world. Group B has a multiple time world champion and a top 2 Protoss. That's kinda been business as usual for a decade.
I don't need you to tell me about Maru's injury because you actually don't know anything about his actual condition. It's clear that Maru has had a number of injuries and, as a result, poor finishes. But, to address your lengthy diatribe, The whole "People plateau, have natural time frames where skill will wane, get injured, lose motivation, age and get slower etc and any of those things can result in a declining skill level even if they are still participating in whatever activity it is." Applies to Serral as well. He's had some lengthy periods where he didn't meet his standard. He has aged. The wear and tear that comes with Sc2 also applies to him. How do you know he's always super motivated the play?
All of your stuff is conjecture because you can't quantify how much Maru's injuries impact him. You can't quantify the impact of all but the best Koreans retiring because the b-teamers couldn't afford to keep going. You also can't quantify the effect balance had on any player. Instead you can vaguely insinuate that these things are tree because they seem reasonable enough that most will believe them without examination.
Yeah it applies to Serral as well, but he entered the scene way later than any other top player which is a huge advantage because it's easier to keep your motivation high and your body healthy for 5 years than to do it for 10 years.
"would Maru have won less events because Terminator or Trust or Hush or SkyHigh or the dozens of other irrelevant players who don't play anymore.
Another way to phrase it would be: " would Maru have won less events if Inno, TY, Flash, MMA, TaeJa, Stats, PartinG, Rain, Classic, sOs, herO, Zest, Dear, soO, Life, ByuL would all still be playing and at their peak?" To which the answer is a definitive yes. It's not a coincidence that back then repeat champions were extremely rare and even the best players could get eliminated in the ro32.
This goes for Maru too though
Entered the scene at a very young age, so had a longer span than almost anyone, uninterrupted by military service.
Only became a prolific tournament winner in basically the same era as Serral, likewise Rogue
It’s applying a certain lens to the career of one player and not another that can get a tad irritating.
Outside of a select few, Serral’s maintained a certain level at this point for years longer than most of the top names of yesteryear.
This is blatantly wrong though? Maru was a key proleague player and also a winner in KIL, as demonstrated in the original thread. Nobody topped 2 KIL in that competitive era.
On May 30 2024 03:26 goldensail wrote: I don't believe Serral wins because he's lucky. He wins because he's one of the best Zergs, possibly even the best Zerg ever if we value consistency over creativity.
However, he is lucky in that: 1. he plays Zerg when Zerg is in an extraordinarily strong period 2. competition is dwindling 3. Maru is slowly but gradually wearing out
I don't believe he would've had the same success playing Terran - he would've lagged behind Maru, Inno, Clem and likely a few others.
It's just the most ridiculous thing I've read today. Saying that the best player in the world would be not even in the top5 if he played another race. The bias is just baffling. You actually deserve a ban for making such ridiculous statements but it won't happen.
This is basically to a more or lesser extent the problem with every diehard fanboy in here (Charosair, this guy, poopi, the loki guy), they're all terran players and they're letting that cloud their judgement, it's sad to see.
As for goldensail, If you honestly think Serral objectively isn't up there in skill with Maru, Inno, Clem and 'likely a few others', nothing you say can be taken serious period. You clearly don't know the game and you respect terran a lot more than anyone else because you play terran and you've convinced yourself it's the hardest race because you can't reach grandmaster. gg.
If bait, wp.
Edit : post history checks out, it's either die-hard maru fanboying, or balance whine about zerg being an OP a-move race.
What's with the weird ad homs? Here, let me try it, see this is the problem with hardcore serral fans. Cannot actually engage on the merits and instead resort to ad homs because they have no idea how to properly argue. It's sad to see. gg.
1) Winrates better than anyone, overall, vs non koreans, vs koreans, offline & online each category 2) Winning head to head vs other goat contenders (Maru, Rogue) 3) More titles than anybody. 4) More prizemoney won than anybody
What merits we arguing about?
Only argument in favor of maru is that he's won code S, a tournament where the best player of the world (serral) didn't participate, and that he was good in proleague when serral was still in highschool, not even being a serious competitor yet, while maru was a full time progamer in the team house infrastructure from a much younger age, with an entire coaching staff and the most competitive environment sc2 has ever seen.
Serral ascended to the top completely on his own, in a much worse practice environment, while not going full time till he was 18 years old. Won his first WCS event when he was 2 months shy of 20 years old. Spent the next 6 years farming tournaments, finishing in the top4 more than anyone else, winning more money, and having the best win rates that any player has ever had in the history of the game, and it's not even close.
I dunno what merits you need but the only one you have is longevity, the fact maru reached his skill level earlier in life. It's not surprising considering he was a full time progamer from the age of (13,14?) in a korean teamhouse with some of the best players around coming out of the BW Eco system of professional play. But even then, during his years pre 2018, he wasn't even considered the best terran, let alone the best player. Innovation was clearly above him during the 2013-2017 era, and Taeja was early on too. Unfortunately when Maru truly ascended, Serral did too, and Serral has consistently outperformed him ever since, except for in the tournaments he didn't participate (GSL).
When he did travel to Korea in 2018 and 2019 for GSL vs the world he took first place each time, on maru's home soil, while maru couldnt even get past weaker players to make it to face serral directly.
Winning four code S in a row is just impossible. Oh wait… someone did it. Being the Terran hope for so long is impossible. Oh wait, someone did it. Reinventing himself many times throughout his career is impossible… oh wait, someone did it. Being nigh invincible in a mirror match-up is impossible… oh wait, someone did it. Beating the TvT master TY in a bo7 finals is impossible, oh wait someone managed to do it. Beating Dear when he was destroying all the other terrans with a streak like 20-0 in the new patch is impossible… oh wait, someone did it. I mean I could go on and on, there are many arguments in favor of Maru. But you are probably one of the newest generation from Reddit / YouTube / TikTok StarCraft super biased by the foreign casters.
Here is an information: I spoke to Elazer during nation wars and he was agreeing with me about how Oliveira was capable of playing as well as Maru / Clem when he was hot, just a few tiny mistakes to fix (he lost to SKillous during NW). That year, Oliveira won Katowice. How did Elazer know the potential of Oliveira? Because he practiced with him.
But even though I didn’t practice with Oliveira, watching several of his series, I was able to see the flashes of brilliance and how only minor details needed to be fixed. He was inspired by Oliveira the MMA fighter and that name change was a blessing, because he truly fought hard at this Katowice.
Did Maru choke? Yes and no. It could have ended differently, but it’s not necessarily just because of Maru. Players know other players. Clem usually says he copies Cure because you can’t copy Maru, since Maru is Maru. You know who else has a similar aura? Faker in LoL, Flash in BW. Serral is also viewed as a god by other players sometimes, but most know that he is mortal too and can be defeated.
Is Serral the goat? He might be Is Maru the goat? He might be Is Rogue the goat? He was for a while, now it remains to be seen Was INno the goat? He could have been at some point, but now it’s probably over Is Zest the goat? Probably not, but it might be because of his race (and its volatility in long series)
What is my personal goat? I have all three: Rogue, Serral and Maru. My heart goes to Rogue, but head Maru and Serral.
On May 30 2024 08:16 Poopi wrote: Winning four code S in a row is just impossible. Oh wait… someone did it. Being the Terran hope for so long is impossible. Oh wait, someone did it. Reinventing himself many times throughout his career is impossible… oh wait, someone did it. Being nigh invincible in a mirror match-up is impossible… oh wait, someone did it. Beating the TvT master TY in a bo7 finals is impossible, oh wait someone managed to do it. Beating Dear when he was destroying all the other terrans with a streak like 20-0 in the new patch is impossible… oh wait, someone did it.
Maru is amazing and being the 2nd best player throughout the history of this game is an incredible accomplishment. It's just that in direct comparison with Serral he falls short on every metric except the longevity one, it is what it is.
The best player in the world didn't participate in those GSLs maru won unfortunately, it'd be kinda like someone farming BW leagues while Flash competes elsewhere, it's still really good, but it just means less when the best player in the world isn't participating.
Then when they enter the same tournament, Serral out performs consistently. Just making those GSLs not much more than a showing of incredible consistency. But if you can't beat Serral, then you're just the best of the rest.
On May 30 2024 08:16 Poopi wrote: Winning four code S in a row is just impossible. Oh wait… someone did it. Being the Terran hope for so long is impossible. Oh wait, someone did it. Reinventing himself many times throughout his career is impossible… oh wait, someone did it. Being nigh invincible in a mirror match-up is impossible… oh wait, someone did it. Beating the TvT master TY in a bo7 finals is impossible, oh wait someone managed to do it. Beating Dear when he was destroying all the other terrans with a streak like 20-0 in the new patch is impossible… oh wait, someone did it.
Maru is amazing and being the 2nd best player throughout the history of this game is an incredible accomplishment. It's just that in direct comparison with Serral he falls short on every metric except the longevity one, it is what it is.
The best player in the world didn't participate in those GSLs maru won unfortunately, it'd be kinda like someone farming BW leagues while Flash competes elsewhere, it's still really good, but it just means less when the best player in the world isn't participating.
Then when they enter the same tournament, Serral out performs consistently. Just making those GSLs not much more than a showing of incredible consistency. But if you can't beat Serral, then you're just the best of the rest.
Greatness is not just about metrics. I mean I really think you are either trolling, or don’t understand the meaning of greatness
On May 30 2024 08:16 Poopi wrote: Winning four code S in a row is just impossible. Oh wait… someone did it. Being the Terran hope for so long is impossible. Oh wait, someone did it. Reinventing himself many times throughout his career is impossible… oh wait, someone did it. Being nigh invincible in a mirror match-up is impossible… oh wait, someone did it. Beating the TvT master TY in a bo7 finals is impossible, oh wait someone managed to do it. Beating Dear when he was destroying all the other terrans with a streak like 20-0 in the new patch is impossible… oh wait, someone did it.
The best player in the world didn't participate in those GSLs maru won unfortunately, it'd be kinda like someone farming BW leagues while Flash competes elsewhere, it's still really good, but it just means less when the best player in the world isn't participating.
You can make a similar argument against many of Serral's trophies though. They may not have been missing the absolute best (though I would argue some were as Serral has not been the continuous best for 6 years straight) but most of them were missing as many as half the top 30 players in the world. I would argue that missing half the top 30 is worse than missing the individual best because in most tournaments Serral participates in you don't actually have to beat him to win the event. As good as he is he still doesn't win anywhere half of the events he participated in.
When 10+ players are missing though you would have definitely had to play one of the missing players if they were present. It's more likely to have an impact on the bracket. There's a very high chance Maru could have won most of his GSLs without playing Serral even if Serral went to KR a bunch of times.
The unfortunate reality of the SC2 scene is that all the top pros only participate in the same event once a year (Kato). Pretty much every other event is missing a bunch of top competitors.
On May 30 2024 08:16 Poopi wrote: Winning four code S in a row is just impossible. Oh wait… someone did it. Being the Terran hope for so long is impossible. Oh wait, someone did it. Reinventing himself many times throughout his career is impossible… oh wait, someone did it. Being nigh invincible in a mirror match-up is impossible… oh wait, someone did it. Beating the TvT master TY in a bo7 finals is impossible, oh wait someone managed to do it. Beating Dear when he was destroying all the other terrans with a streak like 20-0 in the new patch is impossible… oh wait, someone did it.
Maru is amazing and being the 2nd best player throughout the history of this game is an incredible accomplishment. It's just that in direct comparison with Serral he falls short on every metric except the longevity one, it is what it is.
The best player in the world didn't participate in those GSLs maru won unfortunately, it'd be kinda like someone farming BW leagues while Flash competes elsewhere, it's still really good, but it just means less when the best player in the world isn't participating.
Then when they enter the same tournament, Serral out performs consistently. Just making those GSLs not much more than a showing of incredible consistency. But if you can't beat Serral, then you're just the best of the rest.
Greatness is not just about metrics. I mean I really think you are either trolling, or don’t understand the meaning of greatness
Making your case dependent, not upon metrics, but upon some elusive notion of greatness is tantamount to an admission of defeat in argument. It's still more implausible to hold that there's an uncontroversial interpretation of greatness according to which your favorite player fares better than everyone else.
On May 30 2024 07:41 Comedy wrote: What merits do you need?
Serral has
1) Winrates better than anyone, overall, vs non koreans, vs koreans, offline & online each category 2) Winning head to head vs other goat contenders (Maru, Rogue) 3) More titles than anybody. 4) More prizemoney won than anybody
Not very convincing arguments imo.
1. Yes, this is the biggest argument in favor of Serral, however it's noteworthy that he started peaking when most of the other Goat contenders already started to decline and you can see that in his records against players like Inno or Dark who used to give him lots of troubles, and Serral only gained the upperhand in later years when the decline became more and more apparent.
2. Not even true, he's dead-even with Rogue. And head-to-head is not that relevant anyway because the record depends heavily on how often the players ended up facing each other in specific time periods. The record vs Maru is based almost entirely on 2022-2024 which was the period where Serral was most favored against Maru so the circumstances for the alltime h2h record were in favor of Serral. And I think another player being better than Maru for 2.5 years out of Marus 14 year career doesn't make him ineligible for being the Goat. But yeah, this is also a somewhat legit argument but not a really strong one.
3.Titles are irrelevant without considering the context of titles, and I assume what you mean is just "liquipedia defined premier tournaments" which is a completely arbitrary categorization. If you'd mean titles in general I'd assume someone like Clem would have the most. If you'd consider just the big offline events than Rogue and Maru are ahead of Serral.
4. Completely irrelevant considering the players have unequal opportunities to earn money depending on the country they are born in.
On May 30 2024 07:41 Comedy wrote: What merits do you need?
Serral has
1) Winrates better than anyone, overall, vs non koreans, vs koreans, offline & online each category 2) Winning head to head vs other goat contenders (Maru, Rogue) 3) More titles than anybody. 4) More prizemoney won than anybody
And I think another player being better than Maru for 2.5 years out of Marus 14 year career doesn't make him ineligible for being the Goat.
You have repeated this fallacious statement several times at this point.
First of all, it's debatable whether it's really just 2.5 years that Serral has better than Maru. But for the sake of argument, let's accept your premise. Even then, though, Serral and Maru would be roughly at the same level, at worst, ever since Serral became a fulltime pro, factoring in all the discrepancies of their respective trajectories and tournament participations. In any case, it would be patently false to say that Maru has been clearly and consistently better than Serral from 2018 to 2022 (hell, this period began with Serral winning a WC title). So being outperformed for 2.5 years by and, on balance, being roughly level for another 3.5 years to one's greatest contender is a non-negligible challenge to the GoaT title.
Second of all, your statement is misleadingly worded. You make it sound as if Maru had been considered the best player in the world continuously for 11.5 years except for the last 2.5 years, where Serral has overtaken him, which is just blatantly wrong. You know very well that for most of the time before 2018, Maru has not been considered the best player in the world except for relatively limited periods. Prior to 2018, it's mostly other players who were regarded as the best of their time – MVP, Inno, and so on.
So, no, it's not just "another player being better than Maru for 2.5 years out of Marus 14 year career".
The SC2 goat debate between Maru and Serral is nonsensical to be honest - they may be playing the same game but everyone knows the races aren't equally evenly balanced.
The only thing that can be reasonably deduced and conclude is that Serral is the greatest Zerg player of all time, and Maru is the greatest terran player of all time but nothing more.
On May 30 2024 07:41 Comedy wrote: What merits do you need?
Serral has
1) Winrates better than anyone, overall, vs non koreans, vs koreans, offline & online each category 2) Winning head to head vs other goat contenders (Maru, Rogue) 3) More titles than anybody. 4) More prizemoney won than anybody
And I think another player being better than Maru for 2.5 years out of Marus 14 year career doesn't make him ineligible for being the Goat.
You have repeated this fallacious statement several times at this point.
First of all, it's debatable whether it's really just 2.5 years that Serral has better than Maru. But for the sake of argument, let's accept your premise. Even then, though, Serral and Maru would be roughly at the same level, at worst, ever since Serral became a fulltime pro, factoring in all the discrepancies of their respective trajectories and tournament participations. In any case, it would be patently false to say that Maru has been clearly and consistently better than Serral from 2018 to 2022 (hell, this period began with Serral winning a WC title). So being outperformed for 2.5 years by and, on balance, being roughly level for another 3.5 years to one's greatest contender is a non-negligible challenge to the GoaT title.
Second of all, your statement is misleadingly worded. You make it sound as if Maru had been considered the best player in the world continuously for 11.5 years except for the last 2.5 years, where Serral has overtaken him, which is just blatantly wrong. You know very well that for most of the time before 2018, Maru has not been considered the best player in the world except for relatively limited periods. Prior to 2018, it's mostly other players who were regarded as the best of their time – MVP, Inno, and so on.
So, no, it's not just "another player being better than Maru for 2.5 years out of Marus 14 year career".
I mean even if we’re lowballing it, even 2.5 years is a decent chunk of time.
It took about that long, maybe a little longer for Maru to develop from young programing prodigy to a tournament winning calibre player, it’s not massively far off Mvp’s real peak years of dominance, or longer than other players could maintain a levdl of championship contention.
It’s not even an insignificant period within the particular SC2 context
I mean by all means have preferences but there’s just some serious myopia from folks putting forward the various merits of their dudes.
I think there’s quite an other side of the coin aspect when trying to compare folks across eras and contexts, but folks are only looking at one and hyper-focusing.
Obvious ones like Serral not playing GSL, a legit gap in his resume. But on the flip side increasingly his absence is also detrimental to the prestige of that tournament.
Maru has longevity on his side, but on the flip side there’s a last man standing element to his claim almost (exaggerating of course). Serral’s not playing at the time when the game is at its most competitive or in things like Proleague, but equally he ascended to his current level without the benefit of playing full time living/working with other elite progamers.
People will weigh these kind of things differently which is fair enough, we value different things but one does at least have to look at the other side of the scales too sometimes.
We only know Serral for winning. Serral no special storyline. He isn't the lone beacon of hope when all other Zergs are getting destroyed in RO16 or before. He isn't the one defying expectations and casters exclaiming "When he's behind, he's ahead!". Serral plays Zerg very, very good; the best rightnow. And that's it. There's no great legacy.
For someone who has earned this much money from SC2, there's no reason why Serral can't spend a season or two of GSL in Korea without any financial constraints - just purely for the love of the game that has given him so much. Korea is historically considered the Mecca of Starcraft, and it still remains so for a large number of fans.
I’m not sure within the StarCraft context how much bigger a narrative you can get as the first foreigner to break a what, 16 year dominance across two games of Korean players
I mean I guess it’s somewhat normalised now that foreigners can more routinely go toe-to-toe, but that was pretty huge at the time.
Maru’s performance when Terran was struggling is absolutely compelling too of course but the whole ‘Fourth Race’ thing is a bit exaggerated IMO and a kinda misappropriation of Moon’s nickname where it was more apt.
I mean the (general, if not universal) considered GOATs prior to this era were both Terran players, Miz stuck another Terran in his top 10 and I think Taeja’s got a decent claim to dwell in and around the top 15
It’s hardly like he’s been carrying a race that has had such consistent success for a big chunk of SC2’s history.
Less competitive era that it was, herO more recently and Trap for a period before him were probably doing just as much heavy lifting for their respective races
We only know Serral for winning. Serral no special storyline. He isn't the lone beacon of hope when all other Zergs are getting destroyed in RO16 or before. He isn't the one defying expectations and casters exclaiming "When he's behind, he's ahead!". Serral plays Zerg very, very good; the best rightnow. And that's it. There's no great legacy.
I wasn't going to weigh in on this, but this is an incredibly weird thing to say.
Serral was the first non-korean player to win a world championship. His 2018 world championship win is arguably the most cataclysmic, paradigm shifting event in all of SC2, knocking down the giant wall of two decades of Korean dominance across both Starcrafts. He was the ONE different flag in a sea of Korean flags. Right up there in importance with the arrival of KeSPA, the end of pro-league, Maru's 4th consecutive GSL and G5L, Life's ban, and I'd say bigger than Neeb winning the Kespa cup in 2016.
Goat or not, that's up to interpretation sure, but saying that Serral has no great legacy is a top 10 dumbest take I've ever seen.
On May 30 2024 14:22 WombaT wrote: Maru’s performance when Terran was struggling is absolutely compelling too of course but the whole ‘Fourth Race’ thing is a bit exaggerated IMO and a kinda misappropriation of Moon’s nickname where it was more apt.
I mean the (general, if not universal) considered GOATs prior to this era were both Terran players
Maru making a GSL top 4 when he was the only Terran in the ro16 seems like a fourth race to me. Plus winning 2 premiers as the only Terran in the top 8.
The other part is true but very misleading because the only reason that was true is because Life match fixed. If he didn't do that he would have 100% been the goat by 2017. He was already almost even with Mvp and that list was made before his second Blizzcon finals. There's also soO whose only issue was being a kong. You switch even 30% of those silvers to golds and he would have had a more impressive career than any Terran besides Maru.
It's also worth noting Zerg had already won the most money before Rogue/Serral started winning a bunch. It was by a slimmer margin than it is now but they were already the most successful race on a monetary basis.
On May 30 2024 14:22 WombaT wrote: Maru’s performance when Terran was struggling is absolutely compelling too of course but the whole ‘Fourth Race’ thing is a bit exaggerated IMO and a kinda misappropriation of Moon’s nickname where it was more apt.
I mean the (general, if not universal) considered GOATs prior to this era were both Terran players
Maru making a GSL top 4 when he was the only Terran in the ro16 seems like a fourth race to me. Plus winning 2 premiers as the only Terran in the top 8.
The other part is true but very misleading because the only reason that was true is because Life match fixed. If he didn't do that he would have 100% been the goat by 2017. He was already almost even with Mvp and that list was made before his second Blizzcon finals. There's also soO whose only issue was being a kong. You switch even 30% of those silvers to golds and he would have had a more impressive career than any Terran besides Maru.
And if my aunty had balls she’d be my uncle as we say over here.
For me Maru doing so well when his brethren were universally failing is absolutely praiseworthy, but also something of a curiosity at the same time.
Until the gradually declining depth at the business end of the scene he didn’t really transfer his outperformance of his racial peers in the bad times to a similar degree in the good times.
I mean if he had we’d be into Wayne Gretzky territory where there is no GOAT debate
On May 30 2024 10:07 Zealot Lord wrote: The SC2 goat debate between Maru and Serral is nonsensical to be honest - they may be playing the same game but everyone knows the races aren't equally evenly balanced.
The only thing that can be reasonably deduced and conclude is that Serral is the greatest Zerg player of all time, and Maru is the greatest terran player of all time but nothing more.
In 2018, serral's breakout year where he won all wcs events, GSL vs the world, and the world championship, In Korea not a single zerg made it to a final of GSL, or any of the GSL super tournaments.
He was the first zerg to demonstrate the power of perfectly controlled zerg late game, and that it can even win vs protoss air armada, no other zerg was able to do it in 2018.
And yes, like the other guy said, he broke the mold of korean dominance, while practicing from his home in Finland on an inferior server, and became better than all his korean opponents.
On May 30 2024 08:16 Poopi wrote: Winning four code S in a row is just impossible. Oh wait… someone did it. Being the Terran hope for so long is impossible. Oh wait, someone did it. Reinventing himself many times throughout his career is impossible… oh wait, someone did it. Being nigh invincible in a mirror match-up is impossible… oh wait, someone did it. Beating the TvT master TY in a bo7 finals is impossible, oh wait someone managed to do it. Beating Dear when he was destroying all the other terrans with a streak like 20-0 in the new patch is impossible… oh wait, someone did it.
Maru is amazing and being the 2nd best player throughout the history of this game is an incredible accomplishment. It's just that in direct comparison with Serral he falls short on every metric except the longevity one, it is what it is.
The best player in the world didn't participate in those GSLs maru won unfortunately, it'd be kinda like someone farming BW leagues while Flash competes elsewhere, it's still really good, but it just means less when the best player in the world isn't participating.
Then when they enter the same tournament, Serral out performs consistently. Just making those GSLs not much more than a showing of incredible consistency. But if you can't beat Serral, then you're just the best of the rest.
Greatness is not just about metrics. I mean I really think you are either trolling, or don’t understand the meaning of greatness
Making your case dependent, not upon metrics, but upon some elusive notion of greatness is tantamount to an admission of defeat in argument. It's still more implausible to hold that there's an uncontroversial interpretation of greatness according to which your favorite player fares better than everyone else.
On May 30 2024 15:49 Comedy wrote: In 2018, serral's breakout year where he won all wcs events, GSL vs the world, and the world championship, In Korea not a single zerg made it to a final of GSL, or any of the GSL super tournaments.
He was the first zerg to demonstrate the power of perfectly controlled zerg late game, and that it can even win vs protoss air armada, no other zerg was able to do it in 2018.
And yes, like the other guy said, he broke the mold of korean dominance, while practicing from his home in Finland on an inferior server, and became better than all his korean opponents.
That's not true, Rogue was the first one to show the prowess of perfectly controlled Zerg lategame in 2017 to the point where Tastosis famously called him "the best lategame player of all time".
On May 30 2024 15:49 Comedy wrote: In 2018, serral's breakout year where he won all wcs events, GSL vs the world, and the world championship, In Korea not a single zerg made it to a final of GSL, or any of the GSL super tournaments.
He was the first zerg to demonstrate the power of perfectly controlled zerg late game, and that it can even win vs protoss air armada, no other zerg was able to do it in 2018.
And yes, like the other guy said, he broke the mold of korean dominance, while practicing from his home in Finland on an inferior server, and became better than all his korean opponents.
That's not true, Rogue was the first one to show the prowess of perfectly controlled Zerg lategame in 2017 to the point where Tastosis famously called him "the best lategame player of all time".
Actually rogue famously lost to Neeb in late game zvp @ blizzcon 2017 in that 1+ hour game they had. He wasn't close to Serral lategame that he showed the following year.
Also lol @ quoting tastosis.
Btw, end of 2017 there was a balance patch, when rogue was playing late game he was still able to cast fungal growth while burrowed. And infested terrans had 9 range instead of 7. Alongside many other small changes like infested terrans automatically targetting air and so on. Lategame zvp in 2017 was actually a lot different than it was in 2018.
It's always been my personal opinion that they should have kept playing on the 2018 patch a lot longer. It was actually the most balanced looking patch that I have seen. The following year they truly fucked it up with the ridiculous nydus worm spam gameplay.
On May 30 2024 15:49 Comedy wrote: In 2018, serral's breakout year where he won all wcs events, GSL vs the world, and the world championship, In Korea not a single zerg made it to a final of GSL, or any of the GSL super tournaments.
He was the first zerg to demonstrate the power of perfectly controlled zerg late game, and that it can even win vs protoss air armada, no other zerg was able to do it in 2018.
And yes, like the other guy said, he broke the mold of korean dominance, while practicing from his home in Finland on an inferior server, and became better than all his korean opponents.
That's not true, Rogue was the first one to show the prowess of perfectly controlled Zerg lategame in 2017 to the point where Tastosis famously called him "the best lategame player of all time".
Actually rogue famously lost to Neeb in late game zvp @ blizzcon 2017 in that 1+ hour game they had. He wasn't close to Serral lategame that he showed the following year.
Also lol @ quoting tastosis.
Btw, end of 2017 there was a balance patch, when rogue was playing late game he was still able to cast fungal growth while burrowed. And infested terrans had 9 range instead of 7. Alongside many other small changes like infested terrans automatically targetting air and so on. Lategame zvp in 2017 was actually a lot different than it was in 2018.
It's always been my personal opinion that they should have kept playing on the 2018 patch a lot longer. It was actually the most balanced looking patch that I have seen. The following year they truly fucked it up with the ridiculous nydus worm spam gameplay.
you said
and that it can even win vs protoss air armada, no other zerg was able to do it in 2018.
which is just false. Rogue showed it many times, 1 loss doesn't invalidate that. Ofc Serral was even better in lategame but Rogue was the first one to show the way.
Guys, I'm pretty sure at this point, most things that can be said about Maru vs. Serral being the #1 GOAT have been said. And let's not kid ourselves - basically no one is convincing anyone else.
Instead of endless bickering (in which I have taken part), how about we return to normalcy where in a thread about Maru, we talk about Maru, and in a thread about Serral, we stay on Serral, without being ridiculed as "echo chambers", and thereby try to be generally positive/constructive?
Basically a truce, at least until the next tournament
On May 30 2024 20:19 goldensail wrote: Guys, I'm pretty sure at this point, most things that can be said about Maru vs. Serral being the #1 GOAT have been said. And let's not kid ourselves - basically no one is convincing anyone else.
Instead of endless bickering (in which I have taken part), how about we return to normalcy where in a thread about Maru, we talk about Maru, and in a thread about Serral, we stay on Serral, without being ridiculed as "echo chambers", and thereby try to be generally positive/constructive?
Basically a truce, at least until the next tournament
I actually find the discussion quite fascinating and informative. I think it's properly informed me over the years to be more partial to Maru being GOAT than Serral, although its extremely close and I go back and forth on it myself.
I think at least these conversations have sharpened my beliefs, and hopefully others, on the best (and worst) arguments people make on behalf of Serral or Maru. The best arguments for Serral are him absolutely dominating pretty much every player to have played in the last 6 years (including Rogue/Maru + Show Spoiler +
He only has like a 51% win record vs Rogue overall, but offline he's 4-0 in series (!) and 10-2 in games (!!!!), and the vast majority of people who don't think Serral is the GOAT seem to prefer offline tournaments over anything. As to Maru, at worst for Serral they were even 2018-2021 and then Serral absolutely destroys Maru after.
, his unparalleled consistency, ridiculous set of tournament victories (and yes, online tournaments are still important in the modern SC2 competitive environment), and his pure "terror" factor that he's had pretty much since 2018 and has never really been replicated by anyone else. The best arguments for Maru are his longevity, teamleague record, that he does stuff with Terran no one else is able to do or even close, and paired with the fact he's been either the second or third best player in the last six years, and not really significantly behind Serral or Rogue in that regard.
Weak-to-okay arguments for Maru are him doing good even in periods of bad balance, the competitive scene being weaker, and balance arguments. But it's hard because the "bad balance" period was really just a year or so, not that long a period, and Maru's most significant achievements happened in the same exact competitive "decline" as Serral. + Show Spoiler +
Yes, Maru had a great pre-2017 resume. But let's not exaggerate and say he was like a GOAT candidate or even really close. He was #12 or #13 or so on stuchio's mid-2015 GOAT list, and even if you count in 2016 he would probably be 10-7 at best.
. There's too much to talk on the pure balance discussion so I won't get into that, but obviously people will have different views on the extent of that and whether it should play a role at all.
And then in terms of "counter" arguments I think it's completely fair to find important statements like (1) Serral has never won a GSL, but also find important that (2) Maru's GSLs do mean less considering Serral has not been competing in them and he's been on average the best player in the last six years. I also think it's completely fair, of course, that Maru's remarkable lack of winning a world championship or even premier international offline tournament (although WESG is a very important exception + Show Spoiler +
Star Wars is cool too but lots of top players didn't participate
) works against him as well, particularly since I believe those tournaments have been on average the most important in the post-2017 SC2 competitive ecosystem.
All that said, extremely close. And people make great arguments and, just as valuably, sometimes worse arguments.
On May 30 2024 20:19 goldensail wrote: Guys, I'm pretty sure at this point, most things that can be said about Maru vs. Serral being the #1 GOAT have been said. And let's not kid ourselves - basically no one is convincing anyone else.
Instead of endless bickering (in which I have taken part), how about we return to normalcy where in a thread about Maru, we talk about Maru, and in a thread about Serral, we stay on Serral, without being ridiculed as "echo chambers", and thereby try to be generally positive/constructive?
Basically a truce, at least until the next tournament
I actually find the discussion quite fascinating and informative. I think it's properly informed me over the years to be more partial to Maru being GOAT than Serral, although its extremely close and I go back and forth on it myself.
I think at least these conversations have sharpened my beliefs, and hopefully others, on the best (and worst) arguments people make on behalf of Serral or Maru. The best arguments for Serral are him absolutely dominating pretty much every player to have played in the last 6 years (including Rogue/Maru + Show Spoiler +
He only has like a 51% win record vs Rogue overall, but offline he's 4-0 in series (!) and 10-2 in games (!!!!), and the vast majority of people who don't think Serral is the GOAT seem to prefer offline tournaments over anything. As to Maru, at worst for Serral they were even 2018-2021 and then Serral absolutely destroys Maru after.
, his unparalleled consistency, ridiculous set of tournament victories (and yes, online tournaments are still important in the modern SC2 competitive environment), and his pure "terror" factor that he's had pretty much since 2018 and has never really been replicated by anyone else. The best arguments for Maru are his longevity, teamleague record, that he does stuff with Terran no one else is able to do or even close, and paired with the fact he's been either the second or third best player in the last six years, and not really significantly behind Serral or Rogue in that regard.
Weak-to-okay arguments for Maru are him doing good even in periods of bad balance, the competitive scene being weaker, and balance arguments. But it's hard because the "bad balance" period was really just a year or so, not that long a period, and Maru's most significant achievements happened in the same exact competitive "decline" as Serral. + Show Spoiler +
Yes, Maru had a great pre-2017 resume. But let's not exaggerate and say he was like a GOAT candidate or even really close. He was #12 or #13 or so on stuchio's mid-2015 GOAT list, and even if you count in 2016 he would probably be 10-7 at best.
. There's too much to talk on the pure balance discussion so I won't get into that, but obviously people will have different views on the extent of that and whether it should play a role at all.
And then in terms of "counter" arguments I think it's completely fair to find important statements like (1) Serral has never won a GSL, but also find important that (2) Maru's GSLs do mean less considering Serral has not been competing in them and he's been on average the best player in the last six years. I also think it's completely fair, of course, that Maru's remarkable lack of winning a world championship or even premier international offline tournament (although WESG is a very important exception + Show Spoiler +
Star Wars is cool too but lots of top players didn't participate
) works against him as well, particularly since I believe those tournaments have been on average the most important in the post-2017 SC2 competitive ecosystem.
All that said, extremely close. And people make great arguments and, just as valuably, sometimes worse arguments.
On May 30 2024 20:19 goldensail wrote: Guys, I'm pretty sure at this point, most things that can be said about Maru vs. Serral being the #1 GOAT have been said. And let's not kid ourselves - basically no one is convincing anyone else.
Instead of endless bickering (in which I have taken part), how about we return to normalcy where in a thread about Maru, we talk about Maru, and in a thread about Serral, we stay on Serral, without being ridiculed as "echo chambers", and thereby try to be generally positive/constructive?
Basically a truce, at least until the next tournament
I actually find the discussion quite fascinating and informative. I think it's properly informed me over the years to be more partial to Maru being GOAT than Serral, although its extremely close and I go back and forth on it myself.
I think at least these conversations have sharpened my beliefs, and hopefully others, on the best (and worst) arguments people make on behalf of Serral or Maru. The best arguments for Serral are him absolutely dominating pretty much every player to have played in the last 6 years (including Rogue/Maru + Show Spoiler +
He only has like a 51% win record vs Rogue overall, but offline he's 4-0 in series (!) and 10-2 in games (!!!!), and the vast majority of people who don't think Serral is the GOAT seem to prefer offline tournaments over anything. As to Maru, at worst for Serral they were even 2018-2021 and then Serral absolutely destroys Maru after.
, his unparalleled consistency, ridiculous set of tournament victories (and yes, online tournaments are still important in the modern SC2 competitive environment), and his pure "terror" factor that he's had pretty much since 2018 and has never really been replicated by anyone else. The best arguments for Maru are his longevity, teamleague record, that he does stuff with Terran no one else is able to do or even close, and paired with the fact he's been either the second or third best player in the last six years, and not really significantly behind Serral or Rogue in that regard.
Weak-to-okay arguments for Maru are him doing good even in periods of bad balance, the competitive scene being weaker, and balance arguments. But it's hard because the "bad balance" period was really just a year or so, not that long a period, and Maru's most significant achievements happened in the same exact competitive "decline" as Serral. + Show Spoiler +
Yes, Maru had a great pre-2017 resume. But let's not exaggerate and say he was like a GOAT candidate or even really close. He was #12 or #13 or so on stuchio's mid-2015 GOAT list, and even if you count in 2016 he would probably be 10-7 at best.
. There's too much to talk on the pure balance discussion so I won't get into that, but obviously people will have different views on the extent of that and whether it should play a role at all.
And then in terms of "counter" arguments I think it's completely fair to find important statements like (1) Serral has never won a GSL, but also find important that (2) Maru's GSLs do mean less considering Serral has not been competing in them and he's been on average the best player in the last six years. I also think it's completely fair, of course, that Maru's remarkable lack of winning a world championship or even premier international offline tournament (although WESG is a very important exception + Show Spoiler +
Star Wars is cool too but lots of top players didn't participate
) works against him as well, particularly since I believe those tournaments have been on average the most important in the post-2017 SC2 competitive ecosystem.
All that said, extremely close. And people make great arguments and, just as valuably, sometimes worse arguments.
(sigh) I really didn't want to start this again. But since you are fairly dismissive of balance, let me ask a few questions:
1. Do you believe we have had perfect balance? 2. If so, why did the Balance team feel they have to fix PvT balance by nerfing Terran? 3. If not, which race is the strongest?
For what it's worth I actually agree with a fair bit of what you said above.
On May 30 2024 20:19 goldensail wrote: Guys, I'm pretty sure at this point, most things that can be said about Maru vs. Serral being the #1 GOAT have been said. And let's not kid ourselves - basically no one is convincing anyone else.
Instead of endless bickering (in which I have taken part), how about we return to normalcy where in a thread about Maru, we talk about Maru, and in a thread about Serral, we stay on Serral, without being ridiculed as "echo chambers", and thereby try to be generally positive/constructive?
Basically a truce, at least until the next tournament
I actually find the discussion quite fascinating and informative. I think it's properly informed me over the years to be more partial to Maru being GOAT than Serral, although its extremely close and I go back and forth on it myself.
I think at least these conversations have sharpened my beliefs, and hopefully others, on the best (and worst) arguments people make on behalf of Serral or Maru. The best arguments for Serral are him absolutely dominating pretty much every player to have played in the last 6 years (including Rogue/Maru + Show Spoiler +
He only has like a 51% win record vs Rogue overall, but offline he's 4-0 in series (!) and 10-2 in games (!!!!), and the vast majority of people who don't think Serral is the GOAT seem to prefer offline tournaments over anything. As to Maru, at worst for Serral they were even 2018-2021 and then Serral absolutely destroys Maru after.
, his unparalleled consistency, ridiculous set of tournament victories (and yes, online tournaments are still important in the modern SC2 competitive environment), and his pure "terror" factor that he's had pretty much since 2018 and has never really been replicated by anyone else. The best arguments for Maru are his longevity, teamleague record, that he does stuff with Terran no one else is able to do or even close, and paired with the fact he's been either the second or third best player in the last six years, and not really significantly behind Serral or Rogue in that regard.
Weak-to-okay arguments for Maru are him doing good even in periods of bad balance, the competitive scene being weaker, and balance arguments. But it's hard because the "bad balance" period was really just a year or so, not that long a period, and Maru's most significant achievements happened in the same exact competitive "decline" as Serral. + Show Spoiler +
Yes, Maru had a great pre-2017 resume. But let's not exaggerate and say he was like a GOAT candidate or even really close. He was #12 or #13 or so on stuchio's mid-2015 GOAT list, and even if you count in 2016 he would probably be 10-7 at best.
. There's too much to talk on the pure balance discussion so I won't get into that, but obviously people will have different views on the extent of that and whether it should play a role at all.
And then in terms of "counter" arguments I think it's completely fair to find important statements like (1) Serral has never won a GSL, but also find important that (2) Maru's GSLs do mean less considering Serral has not been competing in them and he's been on average the best player in the last six years. I also think it's completely fair, of course, that Maru's remarkable lack of winning a world championship or even premier international offline tournament (although WESG is a very important exception + Show Spoiler +
Star Wars is cool too but lots of top players didn't participate
) works against him as well, particularly since I believe those tournaments have been on average the most important in the post-2017 SC2 competitive ecosystem.
All that said, extremely close. And people make great arguments and, just as valuably, sometimes worse arguments.
(sigh) I really didn't want to start this again. But since you are fairly dismissive of balance, let me ask a few questions:
1. Do you believe we have had perfect balance? 2. If so, why did the Balance team feel they have to fix PvT balance by nerfing Terran? 3. If not, which race is the strongest?
For what it's worth I actually agree with a fair bit of what you said above.
Anyway, let's see what happens in Dallas.
Hate to break it to you but your opinion, pandain's, or mine about imbalance is totally irrelevant cause we're newbies
When you're not qualified to talk about something, just don't, makes you look smarter and less pathetic
Bringing balance into a goat argument is especially just low class, and pretty desperate Unless someone like Lambo, harstem, or heromarine wants to come in here and give breakdowns on how they perceived balance for the past few years, it's pointless to discuss
On May 30 2024 20:19 goldensail wrote: Guys, I'm pretty sure at this point, most things that can be said about Maru vs. Serral being the #1 GOAT have been said. And let's not kid ourselves - basically no one is convincing anyone else.
Instead of endless bickering (in which I have taken part), how about we return to normalcy where in a thread about Maru, we talk about Maru, and in a thread about Serral, we stay on Serral, without being ridiculed as "echo chambers", and thereby try to be generally positive/constructive?
Basically a truce, at least until the next tournament
I actually find the discussion quite fascinating and informative. I think it's properly informed me over the years to be more partial to Maru being GOAT than Serral, although its extremely close and I go back and forth on it myself.
I think at least these conversations have sharpened my beliefs, and hopefully others, on the best (and worst) arguments people make on behalf of Serral or Maru. The best arguments for Serral are him absolutely dominating pretty much every player to have played in the last 6 years (including Rogue/Maru + Show Spoiler +
He only has like a 51% win record vs Rogue overall, but offline he's 4-0 in series (!) and 10-2 in games (!!!!), and the vast majority of people who don't think Serral is the GOAT seem to prefer offline tournaments over anything. As to Maru, at worst for Serral they were even 2018-2021 and then Serral absolutely destroys Maru after.
, his unparalleled consistency, ridiculous set of tournament victories (and yes, online tournaments are still important in the modern SC2 competitive environment), and his pure "terror" factor that he's had pretty much since 2018 and has never really been replicated by anyone else. The best arguments for Maru are his longevity, teamleague record, that he does stuff with Terran no one else is able to do or even close, and paired with the fact he's been either the second or third best player in the last six years, and not really significantly behind Serral or Rogue in that regard.
Weak-to-okay arguments for Maru are him doing good even in periods of bad balance, the competitive scene being weaker, and balance arguments. But it's hard because the "bad balance" period was really just a year or so, not that long a period, and Maru's most significant achievements happened in the same exact competitive "decline" as Serral. + Show Spoiler +
Yes, Maru had a great pre-2017 resume. But let's not exaggerate and say he was like a GOAT candidate or even really close. He was #12 or #13 or so on stuchio's mid-2015 GOAT list, and even if you count in 2016 he would probably be 10-7 at best.
. There's too much to talk on the pure balance discussion so I won't get into that, but obviously people will have different views on the extent of that and whether it should play a role at all.
And then in terms of "counter" arguments I think it's completely fair to find important statements like (1) Serral has never won a GSL, but also find important that (2) Maru's GSLs do mean less considering Serral has not been competing in them and he's been on average the best player in the last six years. I also think it's completely fair, of course, that Maru's remarkable lack of winning a world championship or even premier international offline tournament (although WESG is a very important exception + Show Spoiler +
Star Wars is cool too but lots of top players didn't participate
) works against him as well, particularly since I believe those tournaments have been on average the most important in the post-2017 SC2 competitive ecosystem.
All that said, extremely close. And people make great arguments and, just as valuably, sometimes worse arguments.
(sigh) I really didn't want to start this again. But since you are fairly dismissive of balance, let me ask a few questions:
1. Do you believe we have had perfect balance? 2. If so, why did the Balance team feel they have to fix PvT balance by nerfing Terran? 3. If not, which race is the strongest?
For what it's worth I actually agree with a fair bit of what you said above.
Anyway, let's see what happens in Dallas.
Hate to break it to you but your opinion, pandain's, or mine about imbalance is totally irrelevant cause we're newbies
When you're not qualified to talk about something, just don't, makes you look smarter and less pathetic
Bringing balance into a goat argument is especially just low class, and pretty desperate Unless someone like Lambo, harstem, or heromarine wants to come in here and give breakdowns on how they perceived balance for the past few years, it's pointless to discuss
Well this argument isn't quite right, because taken to your extreme then the average observer couldn't say that balance ever had an impact on tournament victories, even in clear examples like late WoL or blink-stalker HotS PvT. + Show Spoiler +
And for what it's worth, I used to be GM in WoL, so I think I know enough to be able to have an opinion of some kind on balance. But it doesn't even matter if I never was.
You can debate balance just like you can debate anything else.
To be clear for goldensail, I didn't "dismiss" the balance argument. I just think it's the exact kind of topic that's too subjective, and lacks clear objective criteria or evidences, that it's hard to convince others of. It's fine if you have a position on it personally. But there's no real way to objectively prove that Serral would have won less if Zerg was slightly weaker in some way. Or whether Serral is "more or less skilled" than say Maru in some kind of abstract way, assuming such an analysis is even possible.
I don't think any of Serral's victories have ever clearly been the result of abusing broken things, like Rogue's numerous swarm-host/nydus world championships or Dark's 2019 Blizzcon victory. At most he would do queen walks sometimes, but he definitely never did it as much as others. Serral's victories have by far just come from him being extremely skilled, such as brute-force ZvT or late game ZvP, and it's pretty unquestionable that no other Zerg has been able to do those same things to that degree. Of course, like people have mentioned, Serral inherently benefits from the game being broken even if he doesn't abuse those things himself, but at that point it's impossible to really say to what extent balance is playing a role.
And importantly, Serral's two most dominant time periods were when Zerg was not strong: 2018 (where balance was pretty agreed to be even), and late 2023/now (where Zerg is even thought to be weak, if anything). So you definitely can not say that the only reason he's winning is balance if he's been his absolute best in periods where balance is not playing the same role.
On May 30 2024 20:19 goldensail wrote: Guys, I'm pretty sure at this point, most things that can be said about Maru vs. Serral being the #1 GOAT have been said. And let's not kid ourselves - basically no one is convincing anyone else.
Instead of endless bickering (in which I have taken part), how about we return to normalcy where in a thread about Maru, we talk about Maru, and in a thread about Serral, we stay on Serral, without being ridiculed as "echo chambers", and thereby try to be generally positive/constructive?
Basically a truce, at least until the next tournament
I actually find the discussion quite fascinating and informative. I think it's properly informed me over the years to be more partial to Maru being GOAT than Serral, although its extremely close and I go back and forth on it myself.
I think at least these conversations have sharpened my beliefs, and hopefully others, on the best (and worst) arguments people make on behalf of Serral or Maru. The best arguments for Serral are him absolutely dominating pretty much every player to have played in the last 6 years (including Rogue/Maru + Show Spoiler +
He only has like a 51% win record vs Rogue overall, but offline he's 4-0 in series (!) and 10-2 in games (!!!!), and the vast majority of people who don't think Serral is the GOAT seem to prefer offline tournaments over anything. As to Maru, at worst for Serral they were even 2018-2021 and then Serral absolutely destroys Maru after.
, his unparalleled consistency, ridiculous set of tournament victories (and yes, online tournaments are still important in the modern SC2 competitive environment), and his pure "terror" factor that he's had pretty much since 2018 and has never really been replicated by anyone else. The best arguments for Maru are his longevity, teamleague record, that he does stuff with Terran no one else is able to do or even close, and paired with the fact he's been either the second or third best player in the last six years, and not really significantly behind Serral or Rogue in that regard.
Weak-to-okay arguments for Maru are him doing good even in periods of bad balance, the competitive scene being weaker, and balance arguments. But it's hard because the "bad balance" period was really just a year or so, not that long a period, and Maru's most significant achievements happened in the same exact competitive "decline" as Serral. + Show Spoiler +
Yes, Maru had a great pre-2017 resume. But let's not exaggerate and say he was like a GOAT candidate or even really close. He was #12 or #13 or so on stuchio's mid-2015 GOAT list, and even if you count in 2016 he would probably be 10-7 at best.
. There's too much to talk on the pure balance discussion so I won't get into that, but obviously people will have different views on the extent of that and whether it should play a role at all.
And then in terms of "counter" arguments I think it's completely fair to find important statements like (1) Serral has never won a GSL, but also find important that (2) Maru's GSLs do mean less considering Serral has not been competing in them and he's been on average the best player in the last six years. I also think it's completely fair, of course, that Maru's remarkable lack of winning a world championship or even premier international offline tournament (although WESG is a very important exception + Show Spoiler +
Star Wars is cool too but lots of top players didn't participate
) works against him as well, particularly since I believe those tournaments have been on average the most important in the post-2017 SC2 competitive ecosystem.
All that said, extremely close. And people make great arguments and, just as valuably, sometimes worse arguments.
(sigh) I really didn't want to start this again. But since you are fairly dismissive of balance, let me ask a few questions:
1. Do you believe we have had perfect balance? 2. If so, why did the Balance team feel they have to fix PvT balance by nerfing Terran? 3. If not, which race is the strongest?
For what it's worth I actually agree with a fair bit of what you said above.
Anyway, let's see what happens in Dallas.
Hate to break it to you but your opinion, pandain's, or mine about imbalance is totally irrelevant cause we're newbies
When you're not qualified to talk about something, just don't, makes you look smarter and less pathetic
Bringing balance into a goat argument is especially just low class, and pretty desperate Unless someone like Lambo, harstem, or heromarine wants to come in here and give breakdowns on how they perceived balance for the past few years, it's pointless to discuss
I mean I view myself as a better sc2 player than Harstem overall in terms of talent (despite achieving way less), that doesn’t mean my opinion is wrong (or right)
Authority arguments are kinda dumb by definition, that’s not how science works Even a kid could be right about something, without being able to explain why That’s why there are things like peers reviews in science.
On May 30 2024 20:19 goldensail wrote: Guys, I'm pretty sure at this point, most things that can be said about Maru vs. Serral being the #1 GOAT have been said. And let's not kid ourselves - basically no one is convincing anyone else.
Instead of endless bickering (in which I have taken part), how about we return to normalcy where in a thread about Maru, we talk about Maru, and in a thread about Serral, we stay on Serral, without being ridiculed as "echo chambers", and thereby try to be generally positive/constructive?
Basically a truce, at least until the next tournament
I actually find the discussion quite fascinating and informative. I think it's properly informed me over the years to be more partial to Maru being GOAT than Serral, although its extremely close and I go back and forth on it myself.
I think at least these conversations have sharpened my beliefs, and hopefully others, on the best (and worst) arguments people make on behalf of Serral or Maru. The best arguments for Serral are him absolutely dominating pretty much every player to have played in the last 6 years (including Rogue/Maru + Show Spoiler +
He only has like a 51% win record vs Rogue overall, but offline he's 4-0 in series (!) and 10-2 in games (!!!!), and the vast majority of people who don't think Serral is the GOAT seem to prefer offline tournaments over anything. As to Maru, at worst for Serral they were even 2018-2021 and then Serral absolutely destroys Maru after.
, his unparalleled consistency, ridiculous set of tournament victories (and yes, online tournaments are still important in the modern SC2 competitive environment), and his pure "terror" factor that he's had pretty much since 2018 and has never really been replicated by anyone else. The best arguments for Maru are his longevity, teamleague record, that he does stuff with Terran no one else is able to do or even close, and paired with the fact he's been either the second or third best player in the last six years, and not really significantly behind Serral or Rogue in that regard.
Weak-to-okay arguments for Maru are him doing good even in periods of bad balance, the competitive scene being weaker, and balance arguments. But it's hard because the "bad balance" period was really just a year or so, not that long a period, and Maru's most significant achievements happened in the same exact competitive "decline" as Serral. + Show Spoiler +
Yes, Maru had a great pre-2017 resume. But let's not exaggerate and say he was like a GOAT candidate or even really close. He was #12 or #13 or so on stuchio's mid-2015 GOAT list, and even if you count in 2016 he would probably be 10-7 at best.
. There's too much to talk on the pure balance discussion so I won't get into that, but obviously people will have different views on the extent of that and whether it should play a role at all.
And then in terms of "counter" arguments I think it's completely fair to find important statements like (1) Serral has never won a GSL, but also find important that (2) Maru's GSLs do mean less considering Serral has not been competing in them and he's been on average the best player in the last six years. I also think it's completely fair, of course, that Maru's remarkable lack of winning a world championship or even premier international offline tournament (although WESG is a very important exception + Show Spoiler +
Star Wars is cool too but lots of top players didn't participate
) works against him as well, particularly since I believe those tournaments have been on average the most important in the post-2017 SC2 competitive ecosystem.
All that said, extremely close. And people make great arguments and, just as valuably, sometimes worse arguments.
(sigh) I really didn't want to start this again. But since you are fairly dismissive of balance, let me ask a few questions:
1. Do you believe we have had perfect balance? 2. If so, why did the Balance team feel they have to fix PvT balance by nerfing Terran? 3. If not, which race is the strongest?
For what it's worth I actually agree with a fair bit of what you said above.
Anyway, let's see what happens in Dallas.
Hate to break it to you but your opinion, pandain's, or mine about imbalance is totally irrelevant cause we're newbies
When you're not qualified to talk about something, just don't, makes you look smarter and less pathetic
Bringing balance into a goat argument is especially just low class, and pretty desperate Unless someone like Lambo, harstem, or heromarine wants to come in here and give breakdowns on how they perceived balance for the past few years, it's pointless to discuss
I mean I view myself as a better sc2 player than Harstem overall in terms of talent (despite achieving way less), that doesn’t mean my opinion is wrong (or right)
Authority arguments are kinda dumb by definition, that’s not how science works Even a kid could be right about something, without being able to explain why That’s why there are things like peers reviews in science.
I don't think anybody cares what you view yourself as. You obviously aren't a better SC2 player than Harstem despite your trolly illusions of grandeur
On May 30 2024 20:19 goldensail wrote: Guys, I'm pretty sure at this point, most things that can be said about Maru vs. Serral being the #1 GOAT have been said. And let's not kid ourselves - basically no one is convincing anyone else.
Instead of endless bickering (in which I have taken part), how about we return to normalcy where in a thread about Maru, we talk about Maru, and in a thread about Serral, we stay on Serral, without being ridiculed as "echo chambers", and thereby try to be generally positive/constructive?
Basically a truce, at least until the next tournament
I actually find the discussion quite fascinating and informative. I think it's properly informed me over the years to be more partial to Maru being GOAT than Serral, although its extremely close and I go back and forth on it myself.
I think at least these conversations have sharpened my beliefs, and hopefully others, on the best (and worst) arguments people make on behalf of Serral or Maru. The best arguments for Serral are him absolutely dominating pretty much every player to have played in the last 6 years (including Rogue/Maru + Show Spoiler +
He only has like a 51% win record vs Rogue overall, but offline he's 4-0 in series (!) and 10-2 in games (!!!!), and the vast majority of people who don't think Serral is the GOAT seem to prefer offline tournaments over anything. As to Maru, at worst for Serral they were even 2018-2021 and then Serral absolutely destroys Maru after.
, his unparalleled consistency, ridiculous set of tournament victories (and yes, online tournaments are still important in the modern SC2 competitive environment), and his pure "terror" factor that he's had pretty much since 2018 and has never really been replicated by anyone else. The best arguments for Maru are his longevity, teamleague record, that he does stuff with Terran no one else is able to do or even close, and paired with the fact he's been either the second or third best player in the last six years, and not really significantly behind Serral or Rogue in that regard.
Weak-to-okay arguments for Maru are him doing good even in periods of bad balance, the competitive scene being weaker, and balance arguments. But it's hard because the "bad balance" period was really just a year or so, not that long a period, and Maru's most significant achievements happened in the same exact competitive "decline" as Serral. + Show Spoiler +
Yes, Maru had a great pre-2017 resume. But let's not exaggerate and say he was like a GOAT candidate or even really close. He was #12 or #13 or so on stuchio's mid-2015 GOAT list, and even if you count in 2016 he would probably be 10-7 at best.
. There's too much to talk on the pure balance discussion so I won't get into that, but obviously people will have different views on the extent of that and whether it should play a role at all.
And then in terms of "counter" arguments I think it's completely fair to find important statements like (1) Serral has never won a GSL, but also find important that (2) Maru's GSLs do mean less considering Serral has not been competing in them and he's been on average the best player in the last six years. I also think it's completely fair, of course, that Maru's remarkable lack of winning a world championship or even premier international offline tournament (although WESG is a very important exception + Show Spoiler +
Star Wars is cool too but lots of top players didn't participate
) works against him as well, particularly since I believe those tournaments have been on average the most important in the post-2017 SC2 competitive ecosystem.
All that said, extremely close. And people make great arguments and, just as valuably, sometimes worse arguments.
(sigh) I really didn't want to start this again. But since you are fairly dismissive of balance, let me ask a few questions:
1. Do you believe we have had perfect balance? 2. If so, why did the Balance team feel they have to fix PvT balance by nerfing Terran? 3. If not, which race is the strongest?
For what it's worth I actually agree with a fair bit of what you said above.
Anyway, let's see what happens in Dallas.
Hate to break it to you but your opinion, pandain's, or mine about imbalance is totally irrelevant cause we're newbies
When you're not qualified to talk about something, just don't, makes you look smarter and less pathetic
Bringing balance into a goat argument is especially just low class, and pretty desperate Unless someone like Lambo, harstem, or heromarine wants to come in here and give breakdowns on how they perceived balance for the past few years, it's pointless to discuss
I mean I view myself as a better sc2 player than Harstem overall in terms of talent (despite achieving way less), that doesn’t mean my opinion is wrong (or right)
Authority arguments are kinda dumb by definition, that’s not how science works Even a kid could be right about something, without being able to explain why That’s why there are things like peers reviews in science.
I don't think anybody cares what you view yourself as. You obviously aren't a better SC2 player than Harstem despite your trolly illusions of grandeur
Exactly . How would you try to judge balance is interesting though. Since sc2 is all about mechanics and attention once the collective intelligence gathered knowledge about the maps / patch. There is the mind games aspect to it, as well as momentum / psychology when humans are playing (sorry MaxPax you are probably just AlphaStar )
We can try to judge balance using tools like AI playing, but is that a good way to judge balance for humans? That’s imo a very good question, and I don’t think I have the answer
On May 30 2024 20:19 goldensail wrote: Guys, I'm pretty sure at this point, most things that can be said about Maru vs. Serral being the #1 GOAT have been said. And let's not kid ourselves - basically no one is convincing anyone else.
Instead of endless bickering (in which I have taken part), how about we return to normalcy where in a thread about Maru, we talk about Maru, and in a thread about Serral, we stay on Serral, without being ridiculed as "echo chambers", and thereby try to be generally positive/constructive?
Basically a truce, at least until the next tournament
I actually find the discussion quite fascinating and informative. I think it's properly informed me over the years to be more partial to Maru being GOAT than Serral, although its extremely close and I go back and forth on it myself.
I think at least these conversations have sharpened my beliefs, and hopefully others, on the best (and worst) arguments people make on behalf of Serral or Maru. The best arguments for Serral are him absolutely dominating pretty much every player to have played in the last 6 years (including Rogue/Maru + Show Spoiler +
He only has like a 51% win record vs Rogue overall, but offline he's 4-0 in series (!) and 10-2 in games (!!!!), and the vast majority of people who don't think Serral is the GOAT seem to prefer offline tournaments over anything. As to Maru, at worst for Serral they were even 2018-2021 and then Serral absolutely destroys Maru after.
, his unparalleled consistency, ridiculous set of tournament victories (and yes, online tournaments are still important in the modern SC2 competitive environment), and his pure "terror" factor that he's had pretty much since 2018 and has never really been replicated by anyone else. The best arguments for Maru are his longevity, teamleague record, that he does stuff with Terran no one else is able to do or even close, and paired with the fact he's been either the second or third best player in the last six years, and not really significantly behind Serral or Rogue in that regard.
Weak-to-okay arguments for Maru are him doing good even in periods of bad balance, the competitive scene being weaker, and balance arguments. But it's hard because the "bad balance" period was really just a year or so, not that long a period, and Maru's most significant achievements happened in the same exact competitive "decline" as Serral. + Show Spoiler +
Yes, Maru had a great pre-2017 resume. But let's not exaggerate and say he was like a GOAT candidate or even really close. He was #12 or #13 or so on stuchio's mid-2015 GOAT list, and even if you count in 2016 he would probably be 10-7 at best.
. There's too much to talk on the pure balance discussion so I won't get into that, but obviously people will have different views on the extent of that and whether it should play a role at all.
And then in terms of "counter" arguments I think it's completely fair to find important statements like (1) Serral has never won a GSL, but also find important that (2) Maru's GSLs do mean less considering Serral has not been competing in them and he's been on average the best player in the last six years. I also think it's completely fair, of course, that Maru's remarkable lack of winning a world championship or even premier international offline tournament (although WESG is a very important exception + Show Spoiler +
Star Wars is cool too but lots of top players didn't participate
) works against him as well, particularly since I believe those tournaments have been on average the most important in the post-2017 SC2 competitive ecosystem.
All that said, extremely close. And people make great arguments and, just as valuably, sometimes worse arguments.
(sigh) I really didn't want to start this again. But since you are fairly dismissive of balance, let me ask a few questions:
1. Do you believe we have had perfect balance? 2. If so, why did the Balance team feel they have to fix PvT balance by nerfing Terran? 3. If not, which race is the strongest?
For what it's worth I actually agree with a fair bit of what you said above.
Anyway, let's see what happens in Dallas.
Hate to break it to you but your opinion, pandain's, or mine about imbalance is totally irrelevant cause we're newbies
When you're not qualified to talk about something, just don't, makes you look smarter and less pathetic
Bringing balance into a goat argument is especially just low class, and pretty desperate Unless someone like Lambo, harstem, or heromarine wants to come in here and give breakdowns on how they perceived balance for the past few years, it's pointless to discuss
I mean I view myself as a better sc2 player than Harstem overall in terms of talent (despite achieving way less), that doesn’t mean my opinion is wrong (or right)
That finally explains why you think Maru is the most talented player
On May 30 2024 20:19 goldensail wrote: Guys, I'm pretty sure at this point, most things that can be said about Maru vs. Serral being the #1 GOAT have been said. And let's not kid ourselves - basically no one is convincing anyone else.
Instead of endless bickering (in which I have taken part), how about we return to normalcy where in a thread about Maru, we talk about Maru, and in a thread about Serral, we stay on Serral, without being ridiculed as "echo chambers", and thereby try to be generally positive/constructive?
Basically a truce, at least until the next tournament
I actually find the discussion quite fascinating and informative. I think it's properly informed me over the years to be more partial to Maru being GOAT than Serral, although its extremely close and I go back and forth on it myself.
I think at least these conversations have sharpened my beliefs, and hopefully others, on the best (and worst) arguments people make on behalf of Serral or Maru. The best arguments for Serral are him absolutely dominating pretty much every player to have played in the last 6 years (including Rogue/Maru + Show Spoiler +
He only has like a 51% win record vs Rogue overall, but offline he's 4-0 in series (!) and 10-2 in games (!!!!), and the vast majority of people who don't think Serral is the GOAT seem to prefer offline tournaments over anything. As to Maru, at worst for Serral they were even 2018-2021 and then Serral absolutely destroys Maru after.
, his unparalleled consistency, ridiculous set of tournament victories (and yes, online tournaments are still important in the modern SC2 competitive environment), and his pure "terror" factor that he's had pretty much since 2018 and has never really been replicated by anyone else. The best arguments for Maru are his longevity, teamleague record, that he does stuff with Terran no one else is able to do or even close, and paired with the fact he's been either the second or third best player in the last six years, and not really significantly behind Serral or Rogue in that regard.
Weak-to-okay arguments for Maru are him doing good even in periods of bad balance, the competitive scene being weaker, and balance arguments. But it's hard because the "bad balance" period was really just a year or so, not that long a period, and Maru's most significant achievements happened in the same exact competitive "decline" as Serral. + Show Spoiler +
Yes, Maru had a great pre-2017 resume. But let's not exaggerate and say he was like a GOAT candidate or even really close. He was #12 or #13 or so on stuchio's mid-2015 GOAT list, and even if you count in 2016 he would probably be 10-7 at best.
. There's too much to talk on the pure balance discussion so I won't get into that, but obviously people will have different views on the extent of that and whether it should play a role at all.
And then in terms of "counter" arguments I think it's completely fair to find important statements like (1) Serral has never won a GSL, but also find important that (2) Maru's GSLs do mean less considering Serral has not been competing in them and he's been on average the best player in the last six years. I also think it's completely fair, of course, that Maru's remarkable lack of winning a world championship or even premier international offline tournament (although WESG is a very important exception + Show Spoiler +
Star Wars is cool too but lots of top players didn't participate
) works against him as well, particularly since I believe those tournaments have been on average the most important in the post-2017 SC2 competitive ecosystem.
All that said, extremely close. And people make great arguments and, just as valuably, sometimes worse arguments.
(sigh) I really didn't want to start this again. But since you are fairly dismissive of balance, let me ask a few questions:
1. Do you believe we have had perfect balance? 2. If so, why did the Balance team feel they have to fix PvT balance by nerfing Terran? 3. If not, which race is the strongest?
For what it's worth I actually agree with a fair bit of what you said above.
Anyway, let's see what happens in Dallas.
Hate to break it to you but your opinion, pandain's, or mine about imbalance is totally irrelevant cause we're newbies
When you're not qualified to talk about something, just don't, makes you look smarter and less pathetic
Bringing balance into a goat argument is especially just low class, and pretty desperate Unless someone like Lambo, harstem, or heromarine wants to come in here and give breakdowns on how they perceived balance for the past few years, it's pointless to discuss
I mean I view myself as a better sc2 player than Harstem overall in terms of talent (despite achieving way less), that doesn’t mean my opinion is wrong (or right)
Authority arguments are kinda dumb by definition, that’s not how science works Even a kid could be right about something, without being able to explain why That’s why there are things like peers reviews in science.
I don't think anybody cares what you view yourself as. You obviously aren't a better SC2 player than Harstem despite your trolly illusions of grandeur
Exactly . How would you try to judge balance is interesting though. Since sc2 is all about mechanics and attention once the collective intelligence gathered knowledge about the maps / patch. There is the mind games aspect to it, as well as momentum / psychology when humans are playing (sorry MaxPax you are probably just AlphaStar )
We can try to judge balance using tools like AI playing, but is that a good way to judge balance for humans? That’s imo a very good question, and I don’t think I have the answer
How does any of that follow from your inane postulation? You aren't as good as Harstem therefore nobody is qualified to discuss balance? Not even Maru?
On May 30 2024 20:19 goldensail wrote: Guys, I'm pretty sure at this point, most things that can be said about Maru vs. Serral being the #1 GOAT have been said. And let's not kid ourselves - basically no one is convincing anyone else.
Instead of endless bickering (in which I have taken part), how about we return to normalcy where in a thread about Maru, we talk about Maru, and in a thread about Serral, we stay on Serral, without being ridiculed as "echo chambers", and thereby try to be generally positive/constructive?
Basically a truce, at least until the next tournament
I actually find the discussion quite fascinating and informative. I think it's properly informed me over the years to be more partial to Maru being GOAT than Serral, although its extremely close and I go back and forth on it myself.
I think at least these conversations have sharpened my beliefs, and hopefully others, on the best (and worst) arguments people make on behalf of Serral or Maru. The best arguments for Serral are him absolutely dominating pretty much every player to have played in the last 6 years (including Rogue/Maru + Show Spoiler +
He only has like a 51% win record vs Rogue overall, but offline he's 4-0 in series (!) and 10-2 in games (!!!!), and the vast majority of people who don't think Serral is the GOAT seem to prefer offline tournaments over anything. As to Maru, at worst for Serral they were even 2018-2021 and then Serral absolutely destroys Maru after.
, his unparalleled consistency, ridiculous set of tournament victories (and yes, online tournaments are still important in the modern SC2 competitive environment), and his pure "terror" factor that he's had pretty much since 2018 and has never really been replicated by anyone else. The best arguments for Maru are his longevity, teamleague record, that he does stuff with Terran no one else is able to do or even close, and paired with the fact he's been either the second or third best player in the last six years, and not really significantly behind Serral or Rogue in that regard.
Weak-to-okay arguments for Maru are him doing good even in periods of bad balance, the competitive scene being weaker, and balance arguments. But it's hard because the "bad balance" period was really just a year or so, not that long a period, and Maru's most significant achievements happened in the same exact competitive "decline" as Serral. + Show Spoiler +
Yes, Maru had a great pre-2017 resume. But let's not exaggerate and say he was like a GOAT candidate or even really close. He was #12 or #13 or so on stuchio's mid-2015 GOAT list, and even if you count in 2016 he would probably be 10-7 at best.
. There's too much to talk on the pure balance discussion so I won't get into that, but obviously people will have different views on the extent of that and whether it should play a role at all.
And then in terms of "counter" arguments I think it's completely fair to find important statements like (1) Serral has never won a GSL, but also find important that (2) Maru's GSLs do mean less considering Serral has not been competing in them and he's been on average the best player in the last six years. I also think it's completely fair, of course, that Maru's remarkable lack of winning a world championship or even premier international offline tournament (although WESG is a very important exception + Show Spoiler +
Star Wars is cool too but lots of top players didn't participate
) works against him as well, particularly since I believe those tournaments have been on average the most important in the post-2017 SC2 competitive ecosystem.
All that said, extremely close. And people make great arguments and, just as valuably, sometimes worse arguments.
(sigh) I really didn't want to start this again. But since you are fairly dismissive of balance, let me ask a few questions:
1. Do you believe we have had perfect balance? 2. If so, why did the Balance team feel they have to fix PvT balance by nerfing Terran? 3. If not, which race is the strongest?
For what it's worth I actually agree with a fair bit of what you said above.
Anyway, let's see what happens in Dallas.
Hate to break it to you but your opinion, pandain's, or mine about imbalance is totally irrelevant cause we're newbies
When you're not qualified to talk about something, just don't, makes you look smarter and less pathetic
Bringing balance into a goat argument is especially just low class, and pretty desperate Unless someone like Lambo, harstem, or heromarine wants to come in here and give breakdowns on how they perceived balance for the past few years, it's pointless to discuss
I mean I view myself as a better sc2 player than Harstem overall in terms of talent (despite achieving way less), that doesn’t mean my opinion is wrong (or right)
Authority arguments are kinda dumb by definition, that’s not how science works Even a kid could be right about something, without being able to explain why That’s why there are things like peers reviews in science.
I don't think anybody cares what you view yourself as. You obviously aren't a better SC2 player than Harstem despite your trolly illusions of grandeur
Exactly . How would you try to judge balance is interesting though. Since sc2 is all about mechanics and attention once the collective intelligence gathered knowledge about the maps / patch. There is the mind games aspect to it, as well as momentum / psychology when humans are playing (sorry MaxPax you are probably just AlphaStar )
We can try to judge balance using tools like AI playing, but is that a good way to judge balance for humans? That’s imo a very good question, and I don’t think I have the answer
How does any of that follow from your inane postulation? You aren't as good as Harstem therefore nobody is qualified to discuss balance? Not even Maru?
Everybody is qualified to discuss balance Being great at something doesn’t necessarily mean that your opinion should be trusted at all times though There are a lot of cognitive biases, that’s why there are peer reviews
1. I don't think anyone can argue that balance (race+map) doesn't impact results - it clearly does. Let's treat that as a given. 2. I don't think anyone can argue convincingly that only pros are qualified to speak about balance. That's like a restaurant saying to its customers "you are not a chef, so you're not qualified to tell me this food is bad". If we follow this logic, then exactly how accomplished do you have to be in order to discuss balance? GM? High GM? Shin? Maru? 3. If the argument is "balance is too subjective to be used in a GOAT assessment", then it's a matter of convenience, at the most practicality, not principle. If we were actually writing a serious paper on this, we would've needed to call it out as a limitation in our methodology.
I have my view about balance, which is that Zerg is favored and increasingly so as players climb the skill curve (i.e. top Zergs amplify that advantage). My belief is based on results in the past several years, Rogue's own admission(tl.net), and my personal understanding of the game. You may well have a different opinion, but don't get angry and resort to verbal violence. I do find that Serral fans tend to hate balance discussions and immediately want to shut them down, because if balance is indeed Zerg favored, it taints Serral's win record.
If your argument is "yeah I think Zerg is a bit favored but since we can't assess the degree of impact that has on results, let's just name GOATs by race" - I'm perfectly fine with that.
It's like the other guy said, serral actually underperformed towards the end of 2019 compared (when yes, zerg was a little bit silly with the nydus worm spam) to his better years (2018 and 2022-2024), Serral does well regardless of balance, because his strenghts are not based on gimmicks, or abusive play. The way he wins is cause he plays close to perfection. If anything there's an argument to be made that zerg favored balance hurts him because zvz is always going to be volatile because of the larva mechanic. How many games did serral lose in tragic fashion to a lesser zerg because he got roach allined by a guy with 10 drones less and he scouted it 2 seconds too late? Yes.
Bringing into the goat debate is too subjective, it can't be quantified, and there's certainly no clear case that terran was underpowered in the last couple of years. Clem has been beating serral and reynor since the end of 2020 in regionals. Zerg was only clearly OP in 2019 - because of nydus worm spam that Serral didn't abuse, nor did he get abnormaly good results during that time.
On May 31 2024 04:44 Comedy wrote: It's like the other guy said, serral actually underperformed towards the end of 2019 compared (when yes, zerg was a little bit silly with the nydus worm spam) to his better years (2018 and 2022-2024), Serral does well regardless of balance, because his strenghts are not based on gimmicks, or abusive play. The way he wins is cause he plays close to perfection. If anything there's an argument to be made that zerg favored balance hurts him because zvz is always going to be volatile because of the larva mechanic. How many games did serral lose in tragic fashion to a lesser zerg because he got roach allined by a guy with 10 drones less and he scouted it 2 seconds too late? Yes.
Bringing into the goat debate is too subjective, it can't be quantified, and there's certainly no clear case that terran was underpowered in the last couple of years. Clem has been beating serral and reynor since the end of 2020 in regionals. Zerg was only clearly OP in 2019 - because of nydus worm spam that Serral didn't abuse, nor did he get abnormaly good results during that time.
I've always thought that StarCraft II is less about who does the most things right and more about who does the least things wrong. The game is incredibly punishing. Even small mistakes can lead to irrevocable leads.
Serral is just so steady. He's obviously gone up and down over his career, but when he's at his best it doesn't matter what his opponents do. I know it's a long time ago, but Dark and Rogue played their absolute best against him at BlizzCon and it didn't matter. Serral won on the margins. He forced mistakes and always had the right answers. When he turns it on and plays at his best, I don't rate anyone to beat him.
On May 31 2024 04:44 Comedy wrote: It's like the other guy said, serral actually underperformed towards the end of 2019 compared (when yes, zerg was a little bit silly with the nydus worm spam) to his better years (2018 and 2022-2024), Serral does well regardless of balance, because his strenghts are not based on gimmicks, or abusive play. The way he wins is cause he plays close to perfection. If anything there's an argument to be made that zerg favored balance hurts him because zvz is always going to be volatile because of the larva mechanic. How many games did serral lose in tragic fashion to a lesser zerg because he got roach allined by a guy with 10 drones less and he scouted it 2 seconds too late? Yes.
Bringing into the goat debate is too subjective, it can't be quantified, and there's certainly no clear case that terran was underpowered in the last couple of years. Clem has been beating serral and reynor since the end of 2020 in regionals. Zerg was only clearly OP in 2019 - because of nydus worm spam that Serral didn't abuse, nor did he get abnormaly good results during that time.
I've always thought that StarCraft II is less about who does the most things right and more about who does the least things wrong. The game is incredibly punishing. Even small mistakes can lead to irrevocable leads.
Serral is just so steady. He's obviously gone up and down over his career, but when he's at his best it doesn't matter what his opponents do. I know it's a long time ago, but Dark and Rogue played their absolute best against him at BlizzCon and it didn't matter. Serral won on the margins. He forced mistakes and always had the right answers. When he turns it on and plays at his best, I don't rate anyone to beat him.
That is precisely my feeling about Serral. He can have this aura of invincibility, which makes everything seem so effortless. There is always the "yes, and..." with his kind of play. And there is usually no flashy moment that makes you say "what a play", it is just outright dominance that no one can compete with.
On May 31 2024 04:44 Comedy wrote: It's like the other guy said, serral actually underperformed towards the end of 2019 compared (when yes, zerg was a little bit silly with the nydus worm spam) to his better years (2018 and 2022-2024), Serral does well regardless of balance, because his strenghts are not based on gimmicks, or abusive play. The way he wins is cause he plays close to perfection. If anything there's an argument to be made that zerg favored balance hurts him because zvz is always going to be volatile because of the larva mechanic. How many games did serral lose in tragic fashion to a lesser zerg because he got roach allined by a guy with 10 drones less and he scouted it 2 seconds too late? Yes.
Bringing into the goat debate is too subjective, it can't be quantified, and there's certainly no clear case that terran was underpowered in the last couple of years. Clem has been beating serral and reynor since the end of 2020 in regionals. Zerg was only clearly OP in 2019 - because of nydus worm spam that Serral didn't abuse, nor did he get abnormaly good results during that time.
I've always thought that StarCraft II is less about who does the most things right and more about who does the least things wrong. The game is incredibly punishing. Even small mistakes can lead to irrevocable leads.
Serral is just so steady. He's obviously gone up and down over his career, but when he's at his best it doesn't matter what his opponents do. I know it's a long time ago, but Dark and Rogue played their absolute best against him at BlizzCon and it didn't matter. Serral won on the margins. He forced mistakes and always had the right answers. When he turns it on and plays at his best, I don't rate anyone to beat him.
On May 31 2024 04:44 Comedy wrote: It's like the other guy said, serral actually underperformed towards the end of 2019 compared (when yes, zerg was a little bit silly with the nydus worm spam) to his better years (2018 and 2022-2024), Serral does well regardless of balance, because his strenghts are not based on gimmicks, or abusive play. The way he wins is cause he plays close to perfection. If anything there's an argument to be made that zerg favored balance hurts him because zvz is always going to be volatile because of the larva mechanic. How many games did serral lose in tragic fashion to a lesser zerg because he got roach allined by a guy with 10 drones less and he scouted it 2 seconds too late? Yes.
Bringing into the goat debate is too subjective, it can't be quantified, and there's certainly no clear case that terran was underpowered in the last couple of years. Clem has been beating serral and reynor since the end of 2020 in regionals. Zerg was only clearly OP in 2019 - because of nydus worm spam that Serral didn't abuse, nor did he get abnormaly good results during that time.
I've always thought that StarCraft II is less about who does the most things right and more about who does the least things wrong. The game is incredibly punishing. Even small mistakes can lead to irrevocable leads.
Serral is just so steady. He's obviously gone up and down over his career, but when he's at his best it doesn't matter what his opponents do. I know it's a long time ago, but Dark and Rogue played their absolute best against him at BlizzCon and it didn't matter. Serral won on the margins. He forced mistakes and always had the right answers. When he turns it on and plays at his best, I don't rate anyone to beat him.
On May 31 2024 04:44 Comedy wrote: It's like the other guy said, serral actually underperformed towards the end of 2019 compared (when yes, zerg was a little bit silly with the nydus worm spam) to his better years (2018 and 2022-2024), Serral does well regardless of balance, because his strenghts are not based on gimmicks, or abusive play. The way he wins is cause he plays close to perfection. If anything there's an argument to be made that zerg favored balance hurts him because zvz is always going to be volatile because of the larva mechanic. How many games did serral lose in tragic fashion to a lesser zerg because he got roach allined by a guy with 10 drones less and he scouted it 2 seconds too late? Yes.
Bringing into the goat debate is too subjective, it can't be quantified, and there's certainly no clear case that terran was underpowered in the last couple of years. Clem has been beating serral and reynor since the end of 2020 in regionals. Zerg was only clearly OP in 2019 - because of nydus worm spam that Serral didn't abuse, nor did he get abnormaly good results during that time.
I've always thought that StarCraft II is less about who does the most things right and more about who does the least things wrong. The game is incredibly punishing. Even small mistakes can lead to irrevocable leads.
Serral is just so steady. He's obviously gone up and down over his career, but when he's at his best it doesn't matter what his opponents do. I know it's a long time ago, but Dark and Rogue played their absolute best against him at BlizzCon and it didn't matter. Serral won on the margins. He forced mistakes and always had the right answers. When he turns it on and plays at his best, I don't rate anyone to beat him.
Serral is the perfect player
The perfect *zerg* player.
Those games versus Rogue and Dark were incredible. Some Serral games are pure « chef d’œuvre »
On May 31 2024 04:21 goldensail wrote: I have my view about balance, which is that Zerg is favored and increasingly so as players climb the skill curve (i.e. top Zergs amplify that advantage). My belief is based on results in the past several years, Rogue's own admission(tl.net), and my personal understanding of the game. You may well have a different opinion, but don't get angry and resort to verbal violence. I do find that Serral fans tend to hate balance discussions and immediately want to shut them down, because if balance is indeed Zerg favored, it taints Serral's win record.
If your argument is "yeah I think Zerg is a bit favored but since we can't assess the degree of impact that has on results, let's just name GOATs by race" - I'm perfectly fine with that.
do not agree with you. It's 2024, with every patch since 2019 zerg struggle more and more. Funny to use the word “dominated” or “favored” when flooded with toss in every qualifier/gm/major tournament since 2018.
GSL is the top tournament? then ask yourself how many ZvZ finals there were and how many TvT. and look how often it was Zerg in semifiale compared to T. I think the argument “zerg is favored” hasn't been true for 5 years.
On May 31 2024 04:21 goldensail wrote: I have my view about balance, which is that Zerg is favored and increasingly so as players climb the skill curve (i.e. top Zergs amplify that advantage). My belief is based on results in the past several years, Rogue's own admission(tl.net), and my personal understanding of the game. You may well have a different opinion, but don't get angry and resort to verbal violence. I do find that Serral fans tend to hate balance discussions and immediately want to shut them down, because if balance is indeed Zerg favored, it taints Serral's win record.
If your argument is "yeah I think Zerg is a bit favored but since we can't assess the degree of impact that has on results, let's just name GOATs by race" - I'm perfectly fine with that.
do not agree with you. It's 2024, with every patch since 2019 zerg struggle more and more. Funny to use the word “dominated” or “favored” when flooded with toss in every qualifier/gm/major tournament since 2018.
GSL is the top tournament? then ask yourself how many ZvZ finals there were and how many TvT. and look how often it was Zerg in semifiale compared to T. I think the argument “zerg is favored” hasn't been true for 5 years.
Zerg won more premiers from 2019-2022 than Toss or Terran even with Serral excluded. If you exclude the top of each race then they won more than both combined. That's a lot more relevant than the amount of Toss in the EU region qualifiers.
Lack of ZvZ finals in GSL is literally only because Dark and Rogue ended up on the same side of the bracket over and over for like 2 years in a row and then Rogue went to military.
In a mmorpg I played during covid era, I named one character from a class I was wanting to learn « Joona Sotala ». That’s how much Serral has inspired me. There is the human being behind the nickname, similarly to the manga Yu Gi Oh with an Egyptian god etc. In that manga, the human is sometimes helped by an Egyptian god. I view Serral as the ideal / Egyptian god and Joona Sotala as the human being behind the « Serral » ideal / god.
In that manga, you tend to think that the ancient Egyptian god is the better Yu Gi Oh trading cards game player. But ultimately, the human Yu Gi ends up being better (despite being « just » an human, with emotions / imperfections)
To me, I view the imperfect human being Joona as a better player than « Serral ». Serral has that aura of invincibility and Joona has to take that mantle with him everytime he steps onto the stage. There is a burden with the nickname Serral. You must deliver.
Sometimes Joona fails to do so. But it’s alright. He inspired an entire generation of younger human to try and surpass Serral. That’s why I prefer Joona to Serral. That little guy I saw at the airport after Katowice 2022, with just a backpack. There were probably hundred people in the airport, but only a few of them knew that this little human being did something big only a few hours earlier. I watched him from afar, just smiling at how amazing it was to have seen a human play like a god only a few hours earlier, just being in the same place made me smile. I didn’t want to interrupt him for a picture. He had defeated my « chouchou » Maru in the semifinals or something. I quit the venue and watched Rogue vs Bunny from my phone in tears. I still came the day after to watch live HeroMarine vs Reynor and Serral vs Rogue. Then Serral vs Reynor. I cheered hard and shouted to Serral to destroy him. Then I felt bad for Reynor, so I started cheering for Reynor.
Ultimately Serral prevailed. It was an amazing moment. A moment I won’t forget. Rogue, HeroMarine, Reynor and Serral were on stage. But it was the human beings delivering to us an incredible show that moved me the most.
I won’t ever forget this moment. I forced myself to watch. Because usually I feel so bad and empathetic for the guy losing, that I quit the stream. But I forced myself to watch the ending in both Katowice 2022 and 2023. And it was worth it
Thank you dear humans inspiring us to enjoy StarCraft and life in general I won’t ever forget you
Are...are you having a moment again? Please remember, don't drink and post ...also in the series Yugioh it is in fact not an Egyptian God, but the spirit of a pharao who inhabits Yugi. Which btw in the original manga was really meant to be a dark spirit (which is why he is often called "Yami", even though his entire thing is to be a nameless pharao who eventually gets revealed as Atem). Also-also Yugi winning vs. Yami/Atem was probably the dumbest duel in the entire show, but anyway, Also-also-also I don't think, culturally speaking, you can be further away from Egypt than as someone from Finland?
On May 31 2024 10:28 Balnazza wrote: Are...are you having a moment again? Please remember, don't drink and post ...also in the series Yugioh it is in fact not an Egyptian God, but the spirit of a pharao who inhabits Yugi. Which btw in the original manga was really meant to be a dark spirit (which is why he is often called "Yami", even though his entire thing is to be a nameless pharao who eventually gets revealed as Atem). Also-also Yugi winning vs. Yami/Atem was probably the dumbest duel in the entire show, but anyway, Also-also-also I don't think, culturally speaking, you can be further away from Egypt than as someone from Finland?
On May 31 2024 04:44 Comedy wrote: It's like the other guy said, serral actually underperformed towards the end of 2019 compared (when yes, zerg was a little bit silly with the nydus worm spam) to his better years (2018 and 2022-2024), Serral does well regardless of balance, because his strenghts are not based on gimmicks, or abusive play. The way he wins is cause he plays close to perfection. If anything there's an argument to be made that zerg favored balance hurts him because zvz is always going to be volatile because of the larva mechanic. How many games did serral lose in tragic fashion to a lesser zerg because he got roach allined by a guy with 10 drones less and he scouted it 2 seconds too late? Yes.
Bringing into the goat debate is too subjective, it can't be quantified, and there's certainly no clear case that terran was underpowered in the last couple of years. Clem has been beating serral and reynor since the end of 2020 in regionals. Zerg was only clearly OP in 2019 - because of nydus worm spam that Serral didn't abuse, nor did he get abnormaly good results during that time.
I've always thought that StarCraft II is less about who does the most things right and more about who does the least things wrong. The game is incredibly punishing. Even small mistakes can lead to irrevocable leads.
Serral is just so steady. He's obviously gone up and down over his career, but when he's at his best it doesn't matter what his opponents do. I know it's a long time ago, but Dark and Rogue played their absolute best against him at BlizzCon and it didn't matter. Serral won on the margins. He forced mistakes and always had the right answers. When he turns it on and plays at his best, I don't rate anyone to beat him.
That is precisely my feeling about Serral. He can have this aura of invincibility, which makes everything seem so effortless. There is always the "yes, and..." with his kind of play. And there is usually no flashy moment that makes you say "what a play", it is just outright dominance that no one can compete with.
"Well, I think, I think people don't understand that if you play against Serral and if you play against Maru or Rogue, it's just, you know, it's different things. Sometimes against Serral, most people feel hopeless; it's like you cannot do anything. This guy just plays in a way that he leaves you no opening. Like his scouting is perfect; his late game is perfect; so what are you really playing for? Meanwhile someone like Maru and Rogue, they do a lot of mistakes. I don't want to, like, underplay them, but I think it's you know it's common knowledge that Maru has some weaknesses; Rogue has some weaknesses."
Obviously, Reynor himself has his biases, but I found it interesting to hear this from a pro, a world champion at that, who has actually faced all these players.
On May 31 2024 04:44 Comedy wrote: It's like the other guy said, serral actually underperformed towards the end of 2019 compared (when yes, zerg was a little bit silly with the nydus worm spam) to his better years (2018 and 2022-2024), Serral does well regardless of balance, because his strenghts are not based on gimmicks, or abusive play. The way he wins is cause he plays close to perfection. If anything there's an argument to be made that zerg favored balance hurts him because zvz is always going to be volatile because of the larva mechanic. How many games did serral lose in tragic fashion to a lesser zerg because he got roach allined by a guy with 10 drones less and he scouted it 2 seconds too late? Yes.
Bringing into the goat debate is too subjective, it can't be quantified, and there's certainly no clear case that terran was underpowered in the last couple of years. Clem has been beating serral and reynor since the end of 2020 in regionals. Zerg was only clearly OP in 2019 - because of nydus worm spam that Serral didn't abuse, nor did he get abnormaly good results during that time.
I've always thought that StarCraft II is less about who does the most things right and more about who does the least things wrong. The game is incredibly punishing. Even small mistakes can lead to irrevocable leads.
Serral is just so steady. He's obviously gone up and down over his career, but when he's at his best it doesn't matter what his opponents do. I know it's a long time ago, but Dark and Rogue played their absolute best against him at BlizzCon and it didn't matter. Serral won on the margins. He forced mistakes and always had the right answers. When he turns it on and plays at his best, I don't rate anyone to beat him.
That is precisely my feeling about Serral. He can have this aura of invincibility, which makes everything seem so effortless. There is always the "yes, and..." with his kind of play. And there is usually no flashy moment that makes you say "what a play", it is just outright dominance that no one can compete with.
"Well, I think, I think people don't understand that if you play against Serral and if you play against Maru or Rogue, it's just, you know, it's different things. Sometimes against Serral, most people feel hopeless; it's like you cannot do anything. This guy just plays in a way that he leaves you no opening. Like his scouting is perfect; his late game is perfect; so what are you really playing for? Meanwhile someone like Maru and Rogue, they do a lot of mistakes. I don't want to, like, underplay them, but I think it's you know it's common knowledge that Maru has some weaknesses; Rogue has some weaknesses."
Obviously, Reynor himself has his biases, but I found it interesting to hear this from a pro, a world champion at that, who has actually faced all these players.
And still Reynor has a better record against Serral than vs Maru
On May 31 2024 04:44 Comedy wrote: It's like the other guy said, serral actually underperformed towards the end of 2019 compared (when yes, zerg was a little bit silly with the nydus worm spam) to his better years (2018 and 2022-2024), Serral does well regardless of balance, because his strenghts are not based on gimmicks, or abusive play. The way he wins is cause he plays close to perfection. If anything there's an argument to be made that zerg favored balance hurts him because zvz is always going to be volatile because of the larva mechanic. How many games did serral lose in tragic fashion to a lesser zerg because he got roach allined by a guy with 10 drones less and he scouted it 2 seconds too late? Yes.
Bringing into the goat debate is too subjective, it can't be quantified, and there's certainly no clear case that terran was underpowered in the last couple of years. Clem has been beating serral and reynor since the end of 2020 in regionals. Zerg was only clearly OP in 2019 - because of nydus worm spam that Serral didn't abuse, nor did he get abnormaly good results during that time.
I've always thought that StarCraft II is less about who does the most things right and more about who does the least things wrong. The game is incredibly punishing. Even small mistakes can lead to irrevocable leads.
Serral is just so steady. He's obviously gone up and down over his career, but when he's at his best it doesn't matter what his opponents do. I know it's a long time ago, but Dark and Rogue played their absolute best against him at BlizzCon and it didn't matter. Serral won on the margins. He forced mistakes and always had the right answers. When he turns it on and plays at his best, I don't rate anyone to beat him.
That is precisely my feeling about Serral. He can have this aura of invincibility, which makes everything seem so effortless. There is always the "yes, and..." with his kind of play. And there is usually no flashy moment that makes you say "what a play", it is just outright dominance that no one can compete with.
"Well, I think, I think people don't understand that if you play against Serral and if you play against Maru or Rogue, it's just, you know, it's different things. Sometimes against Serral, most people feel hopeless; it's like you cannot do anything. This guy just plays in a way that he leaves you no opening. Like his scouting is perfect; his late game is perfect; so what are you really playing for? Meanwhile someone like Maru and Rogue, they do a lot of mistakes. I don't want to, like, underplay them, but I think it's you know it's common knowledge that Maru has some weaknesses; Rogue has some weaknesses."
Obviously, Reynor himself has his biases, but I found it interesting to hear this from a pro, a world champion at that, who has actually faced all these players.
And still Reynor has a better record against Serral than vs Maru
I guess reynor should look at his record first, before he expresses how he feels. Silly Reynor.
On May 31 2024 04:21 goldensail wrote: I have my view about balance, which is that Zerg is favored and increasingly so as players climb the skill curve (i.e. top Zergs amplify that advantage). My belief is based on results in the past several years, Rogue's own admission(tl.net), and my personal understanding of the game. You may well have a different opinion, but don't get angry and resort to verbal violence. I do find that Serral fans tend to hate balance discussions and immediately want to shut them down, because if balance is indeed Zerg favored, it taints Serral's win record.
If your argument is "yeah I think Zerg is a bit favored but since we can't assess the degree of impact that has on results, let's just name GOATs by race" - I'm perfectly fine with that.
do not agree with you. It's 2024, with every patch since 2019 zerg struggle more and more. Funny to use the word “dominated” or “favored” when flooded with toss in every qualifier/gm/major tournament since 2018.
Ahhh yes! All those Protoss players, flooding all the tournaments, and winning all the championships! Not to forget about the back to back to back to back protoss winning world championships! Darn those OP evil protosses! Taking all the prize money!
On May 31 2024 04:44 Comedy wrote: It's like the other guy said, serral actually underperformed towards the end of 2019 compared (when yes, zerg was a little bit silly with the nydus worm spam) to his better years (2018 and 2022-2024), Serral does well regardless of balance, because his strenghts are not based on gimmicks, or abusive play. The way he wins is cause he plays close to perfection. If anything there's an argument to be made that zerg favored balance hurts him because zvz is always going to be volatile because of the larva mechanic. How many games did serral lose in tragic fashion to a lesser zerg because he got roach allined by a guy with 10 drones less and he scouted it 2 seconds too late? Yes.
Bringing into the goat debate is too subjective, it can't be quantified, and there's certainly no clear case that terran was underpowered in the last couple of years. Clem has been beating serral and reynor since the end of 2020 in regionals. Zerg was only clearly OP in 2019 - because of nydus worm spam that Serral didn't abuse, nor did he get abnormaly good results during that time.
I've always thought that StarCraft II is less about who does the most things right and more about who does the least things wrong. The game is incredibly punishing. Even small mistakes can lead to irrevocable leads.
Serral is just so steady. He's obviously gone up and down over his career, but when he's at his best it doesn't matter what his opponents do. I know it's a long time ago, but Dark and Rogue played their absolute best against him at BlizzCon and it didn't matter. Serral won on the margins. He forced mistakes and always had the right answers. When he turns it on and plays at his best, I don't rate anyone to beat him.
That is precisely my feeling about Serral. He can have this aura of invincibility, which makes everything seem so effortless. There is always the "yes, and..." with his kind of play. And there is usually no flashy moment that makes you say "what a play", it is just outright dominance that no one can compete with.
"Well, I think, I think people don't understand that if you play against Serral and if you play against Maru or Rogue, it's just, you know, it's different things. Sometimes against Serral, most people feel hopeless; it's like you cannot do anything. This guy just plays in a way that he leaves you no opening. Like his scouting is perfect; his late game is perfect; so what are you really playing for? Meanwhile someone like Maru and Rogue, they do a lot of mistakes. I don't want to, like, underplay them, but I think it's you know it's common knowledge that Maru has some weaknesses; Rogue has some weaknesses."
Obviously, Reynor himself has his biases, but I found it interesting to hear this from a pro, a world champion at that, who has actually faced all these players.
And still Reynor has a better record against Serral than vs Maru
I don't know why Reynor feeling that way is undercut by his record in play. More to the point is that he has played against Serral a bajillion times. Even before they were teammates, they practiced together. There's lots of games between Serral and Reynor that will never have been watched by anyone, but will shape Reynor's opinion of how Serral plays and how hard it is to win against him. Meanwhile he loses percentually more against Maru, but only plays against Maru in high stakes games. His opinion is also more about the style. Maru may indeed be more prone to making errors than Serral, but also more adept at recovering from them. So Reynor might look back at those games he lost against Maru and say "I knew I was ahead when I sniped that medivac, if I had been more careful about widowmines, I would've had that game".
Maru is a very clutch player. Serral has some clutchness (it's kinda impossible not to, when at that level), but the sense he gives is not so much clutchness as much as just never even needing to be clutch, because he sledgehammers opponents to death from the very start. He's more like innovation in that sense than like Maru.
Which is better? It's not really a statement about "better". Are you better if you give the opponent the idea they can win, when really, you do sloppy nonsense earlygame because you know you can easily make it up with your superior game sense in the late game? Or are you better if you just don't take that kind of risk, precisely because you know you don't have to? They're just different approaches.
On May 31 2024 04:44 Comedy wrote: It's like the other guy said, serral actually underperformed towards the end of 2019 compared (when yes, zerg was a little bit silly with the nydus worm spam) to his better years (2018 and 2022-2024), Serral does well regardless of balance, because his strenghts are not based on gimmicks, or abusive play. The way he wins is cause he plays close to perfection. If anything there's an argument to be made that zerg favored balance hurts him because zvz is always going to be volatile because of the larva mechanic. How many games did serral lose in tragic fashion to a lesser zerg because he got roach allined by a guy with 10 drones less and he scouted it 2 seconds too late? Yes.
Bringing into the goat debate is too subjective, it can't be quantified, and there's certainly no clear case that terran was underpowered in the last couple of years. Clem has been beating serral and reynor since the end of 2020 in regionals. Zerg was only clearly OP in 2019 - because of nydus worm spam that Serral didn't abuse, nor did he get abnormaly good results during that time.
I've always thought that StarCraft II is less about who does the most things right and more about who does the least things wrong. The game is incredibly punishing. Even small mistakes can lead to irrevocable leads.
Serral is just so steady. He's obviously gone up and down over his career, but when he's at his best it doesn't matter what his opponents do. I know it's a long time ago, but Dark and Rogue played their absolute best against him at BlizzCon and it didn't matter. Serral won on the margins. He forced mistakes and always had the right answers. When he turns it on and plays at his best, I don't rate anyone to beat him.
That is precisely my feeling about Serral. He can have this aura of invincibility, which makes everything seem so effortless. There is always the "yes, and..." with his kind of play. And there is usually no flashy moment that makes you say "what a play", it is just outright dominance that no one can compete with.
"Well, I think, I think people don't understand that if you play against Serral and if you play against Maru or Rogue, it's just, you know, it's different things. Sometimes against Serral, most people feel hopeless; it's like you cannot do anything. This guy just plays in a way that he leaves you no opening. Like his scouting is perfect; his late game is perfect; so what are you really playing for? Meanwhile someone like Maru and Rogue, they do a lot of mistakes. I don't want to, like, underplay them, but I think it's you know it's common knowledge that Maru has some weaknesses; Rogue has some weaknesses."
Obviously, Reynor himself has his biases, but I found it interesting to hear this from a pro, a world champion at that, who has actually faced all these players.
And still Reynor has a better record against Serral than vs Maru
I guess reynor should look at his record first, before he expresses how he feels. Silly Reynor.
When Maru said that Rogue is the stronger Zerg compared to Serral people said he's just hyping up his teammate/buddy. Something similar might be going on with Reynor.
On May 31 2024 04:21 goldensail wrote: I have my view about balance, which is that Zerg is favored and increasingly so as players climb the skill curve (i.e. top Zergs amplify that advantage). My belief is based on results in the past several years, Rogue's own admission(tl.net), and my personal understanding of the game. You may well have a different opinion, but don't get angry and resort to verbal violence. I do find that Serral fans tend to hate balance discussions and immediately want to shut them down, because if balance is indeed Zerg favored, it taints Serral's win record.
If your argument is "yeah I think Zerg is a bit favored but since we can't assess the degree of impact that has on results, let's just name GOATs by race" - I'm perfectly fine with that.
do not agree with you. It's 2024, with every patch since 2019 zerg struggle more and more. Funny to use the word “dominated” or “favored” when flooded with toss in every qualifier/gm/major tournament since 2018.
Ahhh yes! All those Protoss players, flooding all the tournaments, and winning all the championships! Not to forget about the back to back to back to back protoss winning world championships! Darn those OP evil protosses! Taking all the prize money!
Flooding tournaments and winning are not the same. They absolutely are over-represented in GM and the lower pro level.
On May 31 2024 04:21 goldensail wrote: I have my view about balance, which is that Zerg is favored and increasingly so as players climb the skill curve (i.e. top Zergs amplify that advantage). My belief is based on results in the past several years, Rogue's own admission(tl.net), and my personal understanding of the game. You may well have a different opinion, but don't get angry and resort to verbal violence. I do find that Serral fans tend to hate balance discussions and immediately want to shut them down, because if balance is indeed Zerg favored, it taints Serral's win record.
If your argument is "yeah I think Zerg is a bit favored but since we can't assess the degree of impact that has on results, let's just name GOATs by race" - I'm perfectly fine with that.
do not agree with you. It's 2024, with every patch since 2019 zerg struggle more and more. Funny to use the word “dominated” or “favored” when flooded with toss in every qualifier/gm/major tournament since 2018.
Ahhh yes! All those Protoss players, flooding all the tournaments, and winning all the championships! Not to forget about the back to back to back to back protoss winning world championships! Darn those OP evil protosses! Taking all the prize money!
Simple example: DH Dallas 2024. Winners stage P6/T6/Z4 would you say Zerg dominated now? Open Stage 11/11/10. A lot of people only look at the first place and deduce the game status from that. Forgetting that there are several stages in a tournament that might give more information about the state of the game.
On May 31 2024 04:21 goldensail wrote: I have my view about balance, which is that Zerg is favored and increasingly so as players climb the skill curve (i.e. top Zergs amplify that advantage). My belief is based on results in the past several years, Rogue's own admission(tl.net), and my personal understanding of the game. You may well have a different opinion, but don't get angry and resort to verbal violence. I do find that Serral fans tend to hate balance discussions and immediately want to shut them down, because if balance is indeed Zerg favored, it taints Serral's win record.
If your argument is "yeah I think Zerg is a bit favored but since we can't assess the degree of impact that has on results, let's just name GOATs by race" - I'm perfectly fine with that.
do not agree with you. It's 2024, with every patch since 2019 zerg struggle more and more. Funny to use the word “dominated” or “favored” when flooded with toss in every qualifier/gm/major tournament since 2018.
Ahhh yes! All those Protoss players, flooding all the tournaments, and winning all the championships! Not to forget about the back to back to back to back protoss winning world championships! Darn those OP evil protosses! Taking all the prize money!
Simple example: DH Dallas 2024. Winners stage P6/T6/Z4 would you say Zerg dominated now? Open Stage 11/11/10. A lot of people only look at the first place and deduce the game status from that. Forgetting that there are several stages in a tournament that might give more information about the state of the game.
Soo... by your numbers, protoss is about 1/3 of the players. And flooding allthe tournaments. You are entitled to your opinion I suppose. I guess if you're part of the "patch protoss out of the game" crowd, thats reasonable logic.
On May 31 2024 04:44 Comedy wrote: It's like the other guy said, serral actually underperformed towards the end of 2019 compared (when yes, zerg was a little bit silly with the nydus worm spam) to his better years (2018 and 2022-2024), Serral does well regardless of balance, because his strenghts are not based on gimmicks, or abusive play. The way he wins is cause he plays close to perfection. If anything there's an argument to be made that zerg favored balance hurts him because zvz is always going to be volatile because of the larva mechanic. How many games did serral lose in tragic fashion to a lesser zerg because he got roach allined by a guy with 10 drones less and he scouted it 2 seconds too late? Yes.
Bringing into the goat debate is too subjective, it can't be quantified, and there's certainly no clear case that terran was underpowered in the last couple of years. Clem has been beating serral and reynor since the end of 2020 in regionals. Zerg was only clearly OP in 2019 - because of nydus worm spam that Serral didn't abuse, nor did he get abnormaly good results during that time.
I've always thought that StarCraft II is less about who does the most things right and more about who does the least things wrong. The game is incredibly punishing. Even small mistakes can lead to irrevocable leads.
Serral is just so steady. He's obviously gone up and down over his career, but when he's at his best it doesn't matter what his opponents do. I know it's a long time ago, but Dark and Rogue played their absolute best against him at BlizzCon and it didn't matter. Serral won on the margins. He forced mistakes and always had the right answers. When he turns it on and plays at his best, I don't rate anyone to beat him.
That is precisely my feeling about Serral. He can have this aura of invincibility, which makes everything seem so effortless. There is always the "yes, and..." with his kind of play. And there is usually no flashy moment that makes you say "what a play", it is just outright dominance that no one can compete with.
"Well, I think, I think people don't understand that if you play against Serral and if you play against Maru or Rogue, it's just, you know, it's different things. Sometimes against Serral, most people feel hopeless; it's like you cannot do anything. This guy just plays in a way that he leaves you no opening. Like his scouting is perfect; his late game is perfect; so what are you really playing for? Meanwhile someone like Maru and Rogue, they do a lot of mistakes. I don't want to, like, underplay them, but I think it's you know it's common knowledge that Maru has some weaknesses; Rogue has some weaknesses."
Obviously, Reynor himself has his biases, but I found it interesting to hear this from a pro, a world champion at that, who has actually faced all these players.
And still Reynor has a better record against Serral than vs Maru
I guess reynor should look at his record first, before he expresses how he feels. Silly Reynor.
When Maru said that Rogue is the stronger Zerg compared to Serral people said he's just hyping up his teammate/buddy. Something similar might be going on with Reynor.
Reynor has a clear incentive to hype Serral over Maru - if he had supported Maru > Serral, then the only reasonable explanation for Serral's win record over Maru is that ZvT is Zerg favored, but with that deduction, Reynor's losing record vs. Maru becomes irrefutable proof that Maru > him (Reynor).
Of course, it is still inexcusable that if Serral can beat Maru as a Zerg, why can't Reynor? Therefore no choice for him left but to say Serral is GOAT.
On May 31 2024 04:44 Comedy wrote: It's like the other guy said, serral actually underperformed towards the end of 2019 compared (when yes, zerg was a little bit silly with the nydus worm spam) to his better years (2018 and 2022-2024), Serral does well regardless of balance, because his strenghts are not based on gimmicks, or abusive play. The way he wins is cause he plays close to perfection. If anything there's an argument to be made that zerg favored balance hurts him because zvz is always going to be volatile because of the larva mechanic. How many games did serral lose in tragic fashion to a lesser zerg because he got roach allined by a guy with 10 drones less and he scouted it 2 seconds too late? Yes.
Bringing into the goat debate is too subjective, it can't be quantified, and there's certainly no clear case that terran was underpowered in the last couple of years. Clem has been beating serral and reynor since the end of 2020 in regionals. Zerg was only clearly OP in 2019 - because of nydus worm spam that Serral didn't abuse, nor did he get abnormaly good results during that time.
I've always thought that StarCraft II is less about who does the most things right and more about who does the least things wrong. The game is incredibly punishing. Even small mistakes can lead to irrevocable leads.
Serral is just so steady. He's obviously gone up and down over his career, but when he's at his best it doesn't matter what his opponents do. I know it's a long time ago, but Dark and Rogue played their absolute best against him at BlizzCon and it didn't matter. Serral won on the margins. He forced mistakes and always had the right answers. When he turns it on and plays at his best, I don't rate anyone to beat him.
That is precisely my feeling about Serral. He can have this aura of invincibility, which makes everything seem so effortless. There is always the "yes, and..." with his kind of play. And there is usually no flashy moment that makes you say "what a play", it is just outright dominance that no one can compete with.
"Well, I think, I think people don't understand that if you play against Serral and if you play against Maru or Rogue, it's just, you know, it's different things. Sometimes against Serral, most people feel hopeless; it's like you cannot do anything. This guy just plays in a way that he leaves you no opening. Like his scouting is perfect; his late game is perfect; so what are you really playing for? Meanwhile someone like Maru and Rogue, they do a lot of mistakes. I don't want to, like, underplay them, but I think it's you know it's common knowledge that Maru has some weaknesses; Rogue has some weaknesses."
Obviously, Reynor himself has his biases, but I found it interesting to hear this from a pro, a world champion at that, who has actually faced all these players.
And still Reynor has a better record against Serral than vs Maru
I guess reynor should look at his record first, before he expresses how he feels. Silly Reynor.
When Maru said that Rogue is the stronger Zerg compared to Serral people said he's just hyping up his teammate/buddy. Something similar might be going on with Reynor.
Reynor has a clear incentive to hype Serral over Maru - if he had supported Maru > Serral, then the only reasonable explanation for Serral's win record over Maru is that ZvT is Zerg favored, but with that deduction, Reynor's losing record vs. Maru becomes irrefutable proof that Maru > him (Reynor).
Of course, it is still inexcusable that if Serral can beat Maru as a Zerg, why can't Reynor? Therefore no choice for him left but to say Serral is GOAT.
;thank god we have your 200 iq brain to logically dedact why reynor suppots serral here, and it's not because serral beats maru every single time or maybe just because he feels serral is a better player.
On May 31 2024 04:44 Comedy wrote: It's like the other guy said, serral actually underperformed towards the end of 2019 compared (when yes, zerg was a little bit silly with the nydus worm spam) to his better years (2018 and 2022-2024), Serral does well regardless of balance, because his strenghts are not based on gimmicks, or abusive play. The way he wins is cause he plays close to perfection. If anything there's an argument to be made that zerg favored balance hurts him because zvz is always going to be volatile because of the larva mechanic. How many games did serral lose in tragic fashion to a lesser zerg because he got roach allined by a guy with 10 drones less and he scouted it 2 seconds too late? Yes.
Bringing into the goat debate is too subjective, it can't be quantified, and there's certainly no clear case that terran was underpowered in the last couple of years. Clem has been beating serral and reynor since the end of 2020 in regionals. Zerg was only clearly OP in 2019 - because of nydus worm spam that Serral didn't abuse, nor did he get abnormaly good results during that time.
I've always thought that StarCraft II is less about who does the most things right and more about who does the least things wrong. The game is incredibly punishing. Even small mistakes can lead to irrevocable leads.
Serral is just so steady. He's obviously gone up and down over his career, but when he's at his best it doesn't matter what his opponents do. I know it's a long time ago, but Dark and Rogue played their absolute best against him at BlizzCon and it didn't matter. Serral won on the margins. He forced mistakes and always had the right answers. When he turns it on and plays at his best, I don't rate anyone to beat him.
That is precisely my feeling about Serral. He can have this aura of invincibility, which makes everything seem so effortless. There is always the "yes, and..." with his kind of play. And there is usually no flashy moment that makes you say "what a play", it is just outright dominance that no one can compete with.
"Well, I think, I think people don't understand that if you play against Serral and if you play against Maru or Rogue, it's just, you know, it's different things. Sometimes against Serral, most people feel hopeless; it's like you cannot do anything. This guy just plays in a way that he leaves you no opening. Like his scouting is perfect; his late game is perfect; so what are you really playing for? Meanwhile someone like Maru and Rogue, they do a lot of mistakes. I don't want to, like, underplay them, but I think it's you know it's common knowledge that Maru has some weaknesses; Rogue has some weaknesses."
Obviously, Reynor himself has his biases, but I found it interesting to hear this from a pro, a world champion at that, who has actually faced all these players.
And still Reynor has a better record against Serral than vs Maru
I guess reynor should look at his record first, before he expresses how he feels. Silly Reynor.
When Maru said that Rogue is the stronger Zerg compared to Serral people said he's just hyping up his teammate/buddy. Something similar might be going on with Reynor.
Reynor has a clear incentive to hype Serral over Maru - if he had supported Maru > Serral, then the only reasonable explanation for Serral's win record over Maru is that ZvT is Zerg favored, but with that deduction, Reynor's losing record vs. Maru becomes irrefutable proof that Maru > him (Reynor).
Of course, it is still inexcusable that if Serral can beat Maru as a Zerg, why can't Reynor? Therefore no choice for him left but to say Serral is GOAT.
;thank god we have your 200 iq brain to logically dedact why reynor suppots serral here, and it's not because serral beats maru every single time or maybe just because he feels serral is a better player.
Jfc
I won't argue with idiots because they will just drag me down to their level and beat me with experience.
On May 31 2024 04:44 Comedy wrote: It's like the other guy said, serral actually underperformed towards the end of 2019 compared (when yes, zerg was a little bit silly with the nydus worm spam) to his better years (2018 and 2022-2024), Serral does well regardless of balance, because his strenghts are not based on gimmicks, or abusive play. The way he wins is cause he plays close to perfection. If anything there's an argument to be made that zerg favored balance hurts him because zvz is always going to be volatile because of the larva mechanic. How many games did serral lose in tragic fashion to a lesser zerg because he got roach allined by a guy with 10 drones less and he scouted it 2 seconds too late? Yes.
Bringing into the goat debate is too subjective, it can't be quantified, and there's certainly no clear case that terran was underpowered in the last couple of years. Clem has been beating serral and reynor since the end of 2020 in regionals. Zerg was only clearly OP in 2019 - because of nydus worm spam that Serral didn't abuse, nor did he get abnormaly good results during that time.
I've always thought that StarCraft II is less about who does the most things right and more about who does the least things wrong. The game is incredibly punishing. Even small mistakes can lead to irrevocable leads.
Serral is just so steady. He's obviously gone up and down over his career, but when he's at his best it doesn't matter what his opponents do. I know it's a long time ago, but Dark and Rogue played their absolute best against him at BlizzCon and it didn't matter. Serral won on the margins. He forced mistakes and always had the right answers. When he turns it on and plays at his best, I don't rate anyone to beat him.
That is precisely my feeling about Serral. He can have this aura of invincibility, which makes everything seem so effortless. There is always the "yes, and..." with his kind of play. And there is usually no flashy moment that makes you say "what a play", it is just outright dominance that no one can compete with.
"Well, I think, I think people don't understand that if you play against Serral and if you play against Maru or Rogue, it's just, you know, it's different things. Sometimes against Serral, most people feel hopeless; it's like you cannot do anything. This guy just plays in a way that he leaves you no opening. Like his scouting is perfect; his late game is perfect; so what are you really playing for? Meanwhile someone like Maru and Rogue, they do a lot of mistakes. I don't want to, like, underplay them, but I think it's you know it's common knowledge that Maru has some weaknesses; Rogue has some weaknesses."
Obviously, Reynor himself has his biases, but I found it interesting to hear this from a pro, a world champion at that, who has actually faced all these players.
And still Reynor has a better record against Serral than vs Maru
I guess reynor should look at his record first, before he expresses how he feels. Silly Reynor.
When Maru said that Rogue is the stronger Zerg compared to Serral people said he's just hyping up his teammate/buddy. Something similar might be going on with Reynor.
Reynor has a clear incentive to hype Serral over Maru - if he had supported Maru > Serral, then the only reasonable explanation for Serral's win record over Maru is that ZvT is Zerg favored, but with that deduction, Reynor's losing record vs. Maru becomes irrefutable proof that Maru > him (Reynor).
Of course, it is still inexcusable that if Serral can beat Maru as a Zerg, why can't Reynor? Therefore no choice for him left but to say Serral is GOAT.
Is this why quite a few top Koreans say basically the same thing?
It’s not like their respective careers aren’t somewhat borne out by what Reynor said. Even if the ‘weakness’ is merely a bit of inconsistency and they’re on a par on their best days, Rogue can blow very hot and quite cold, and Maru’s not averse to occasionally donating the odd set with some bafflingly bad build (as Reynor well knows)
I haven’t heard him say it, I imagine if Reynor was directly asked he’d put Serral on another level to himself as well, despite having a decent H2H and some big titles of his own.
Reynor and pretty much every other Zerg have had their ZvP issues in recent months in the bigger tournies, especially if herO was involved and Serral just beat him down pretty easily yesterday. Intrigued to see how he goes for the rest of it
On May 12 2024 02:19 Mizenhauer wrote: GOAT Addendum: Maru and the perception of Code S
With Code S fully underway, we find ourselves in an increasingly familiar situation. Maru, fresh off claiming his eighth Code S title, has already advanced to the Round of 8, and looks poised to win the tournament for a ninth time.
Maru’s position as the undisputed best player in South Korea is far from surprising. Every truly great player leaves behind a legacy and Maru’s will inevitably be tied to his complete dominance of the most prestigious competition in StarCraft II history. Four titles ahead of the closest contender, Maru is the unquestioned king of Code S. But, given how absolute his reign has been, his success begs questions. One of which is, how do we evaluate Maru’s future success in a competition in which he has lapped the field time and again?
While some might quibble about the current level of competition, Code S remains the gold standard when it comes to individual competition. There are events with larger prize pools and stiffer competition, but none can best Code S when it comes to historical significance and name value. Fourteen years ago, in the nascent days of Wings of Liberty, Mvp, NesTea and MC built their reputation on Code S titles. INnoVation, Zest and Rain continued that tradition—defying the odds by winning seasons of Code S where two thirds of the participants were viable championship contenders. Stats and Rogue added their names to the ledgers in Legacy of the Void and, even now, with an inarguably diminished scene, winning Code S secures you an indelible place in StarCraft II history. TY and Dark may have only won the competition twice, but those triumphs rank among the greatest accomplishments of their decorated careers.
Maru earned his first Korean Individual League trophy in 2013, before doubling his trophy haul during Season 1 of SSL two years later. But, it wasn’t until 2018 that he finally captured the Code S title which had eluded him for eight years.
He followed that up by winning the next three seasons, as well—instantly catapulting himself ahead of Mvp (who had held the record for most championships since 2011). Six years removed from his fourth title, Maru is the undisputed master of Code S. He has won eight of the 17 Seasons held from 2018 onwards. With another three second place finishes to his name, Maru has reached the finals of 65% of the seasons held over the past six years. And, while Maru already possessed one of the highest win percentages in Code S history at 61% by the end of 2020, the steady departure of viable contenders has ballooned his win rate to the verge of absurdity.
While Maru’s grasp on Code S has gone largely uncontested since 2018, the retirement of TY and Stats in 2021, as well as Rogue in 2022 have only tightened his grip. Maru’s record in Code S since the start of 2022 is an astounding 82-42 (67%) in games and 34-12 (74%) in matches. His closest rival during this period, Dark, is 62-47 (57%) in games and 25-12 (68%) in matches. As it stands, Maru has won over 350 games in Code S—a mark that exceeds his closest competitor by more than 100.
Overall, Maru has won four of the five seasons of Code S held since Rogue departed for the military. And, while some might point to the absence of four time champion as one of the reasons for Maru’s recent success, one can’t ignore that Maru pulled this trick when he won four seasons in a row back in 2018 and 2019. He shattered numerous records along the way—becoming the first player to win two consecutive seasons of Code S since NesTea did so in 2010, before increasing his trophy haul to four within the span of ten months. Maru matched NesTea in other ways, becoming the first player to sweep the finals of Code S since the IM Zerg mauled InCa in 2011. Maru tied soO’s record for the most consecutive final appearances (four) and broke Mvp’s record of three Code S titles. Season by season Maru climbed the ladder of the greatest players to ever participate in the competition, with each trophy drastically altering his career. His first victory was long overdue for someone of his talent. His second was the start of something special. His third put him level with Mvp and his fourth was his ascension to a tier all his own.
Then again, it doesn’t feel like it did over a half decade ago. Maru’s first four titles were something out of an epic tale. He wasn’t just defeating his peers, he was grappling fate, logic and the weight of history into submission. His fifth title, the G5L, felt similarly profound—the realization of a collective dream a dozen years in the making.
Nowadays, Maru’s wins border on deflating. Maru was never truly threatened in the most recent season of Code S. Even Cure and herO, the opponents against whom Maru faced off in the semifinals and finals respectively, only managed to steal one game between them. After that Maru took the stage and kissed the Code S trophy amid a shower of confetti for the eighth time. Simply put, he has transformed wonderment into inevitability.
I needed something to break up this massive block of text and this fits the bill
Regardless of what some might insist, the majority of the best players in the world still hail from South Korea. These aren’t the “glory days” where 15 of the 16 qualifiers for the 2015 WCS Global Finals were Korean, Code S awarded over 100,000 dollars and weekenders were a feeding ground for Koreans traveling abroad. That era is gone, but Code S is littered with talented players and all time greats. In fact, while the last three “World Championship” quality events (IEM Katowice 2023, 2024 and Gamers8 2023) were won by foreigners, Koreans took up five of the eight quarterfinal spots and, by and large, outperformed their foreign opposition in the group stage. Serral, Reynor and Clem have illustrated they can compete and defeat top tier Korean pros, but the rest of the foreign scene struggles mightily with players like SHIN, ByuN or Classic—all of whom have had limited success in Code S over the past few years.
Code S may not have as many competitors or the depth of talent it once had, but the results of Group B (and the impending Group of Death consisting of Cure, Stats, Dark and Rogue) prove that every victory, even those in the opening round, are hard fought and well deserved. Ten different players have reached the semifinals of Code S dating back to the first season of 2023. Maru and Cure managed to make it on three occasions but, outside of that, only GuMiho and Dark logged more than one appearance—with ByuN, Bunny, Classic, Solar, herO and Stats settling for a single trip.
The honest truth is there isn’t a progamer in Korea capable of reliably defeating Maru at the moment. herO denied Maru the G5L only two years ago, but Maru’s 4-1 victory in the finals of the most recent season of Code S further illustrated the gulf between him and second best. There isn’t a Protoss in Korea who can rival herO, but even he is nothing more than fodder—at least in Code S.
There is always a note of resignation when Maru wins Code S, but even the harshest critic has to admit his brilliance is undeniable. How many times have we watched Maru’s opponents shatter his economy, reset his tank count or get ahead on bases only for them to flail helplessly once Maru starts to work his magic? There is perhaps no better example of the discrepancy between Maru and his peers than Cure. Maru’s former teammate has been the second best Korean Terran since TY retired, but the two of them could never be confused for one another. Maru 5-0 record against Cure in offline Best of 5+ over the past four years is evidence enough. But when you take into account the fact that Maru’s chances of beating Cure in Best of 3 (70%) rises to an even more daunting 78% in a seven game series, it’s clear as day that Cure needs everything to break his way if he wants to win Code S—including dodging Maru.
The same goes for Dark, who Aligulac gives a 37% chance of beating Maru in a Best of 7. This pattern also applies to herO, whose 4-1 defeat in Code S (which happens 15% of the time according to Aligulac) lines up nicely with Maru’s 56% chance of victory. For once, the eye test lines up with the math. Maru looks, feels, and is the favorite in every match he plays.
All of this begs a question—if Maru’s triumphs in Code S feel so insubstantial, how do subsequent victories affect his legacy and his position as one of the greatest of all time? There is an argument to be made that future titles are simply gratuitous. How much does it matter if Maru retires with nine, 10 or 19 Code S titles? He has already long since claimed dominion over the event and, by extension, Korean StarCraft II.
Alternatively, the fact that Maru outpaces his closest competitor (Rogue) by a full four Code S titles while simultaneously retaining his position as the most likely player to win the event going forward means each Championship has an exponential effect on his legacy rather than a linear one. After all, if Maru retired with twelve Code S titles while everyone else was left languishing with four or less, how could that not further Maru’s case? As much as some seek mitigating factors such as the lack of top tier talent, the relative dearth of competitive players compared to the past or the fact that many players’ pursuit of Maru was effectively ended prematurely by military service, Maru is the one winning Code S at a never before imagined rate—not Dark, not Cure and not herO. It’s Maru that continues to add to his unmatched trophy collection with each passing season.
At the end of the day, Code S hasn’t changed all that much. The format has shifted and the prize money has decreased, but navigating the gauntlet that is Code S is as challenging a prospect as any that exists in the game today. The fact that Maru has won the event so often and with such apparent ease is a testament to his greatness and the continued significance of Code S.
It’s tempting to say that the most prestigious event in StarCraft II is no longer about who qualifies or how balanced the game is at the time. That it’s not about who catches fire or who devises the most effective strategy. There are moments where it certainly seems that if Maru executes as he should and avoids some grave mistake along the way, that this Season of Code S is destined to become his for the ninth time. Fortunately, we only have to wait until June 27th to get our answer. Then we can start asking the same questions all over again.
On May 31 2024 04:44 Comedy wrote: It's like the other guy said, serral actually underperformed towards the end of 2019 compared (when yes, zerg was a little bit silly with the nydus worm spam) to his better years (2018 and 2022-2024), Serral does well regardless of balance, because his strenghts are not based on gimmicks, or abusive play. The way he wins is cause he plays close to perfection. If anything there's an argument to be made that zerg favored balance hurts him because zvz is always going to be volatile because of the larva mechanic. How many games did serral lose in tragic fashion to a lesser zerg because he got roach allined by a guy with 10 drones less and he scouted it 2 seconds too late? Yes.
Bringing into the goat debate is too subjective, it can't be quantified, and there's certainly no clear case that terran was underpowered in the last couple of years. Clem has been beating serral and reynor since the end of 2020 in regionals. Zerg was only clearly OP in 2019 - because of nydus worm spam that Serral didn't abuse, nor did he get abnormaly good results during that time.
I've always thought that StarCraft II is less about who does the most things right and more about who does the least things wrong. The game is incredibly punishing. Even small mistakes can lead to irrevocable leads.
Serral is just so steady. He's obviously gone up and down over his career, but when he's at his best it doesn't matter what his opponents do. I know it's a long time ago, but Dark and Rogue played their absolute best against him at BlizzCon and it didn't matter. Serral won on the margins. He forced mistakes and always had the right answers. When he turns it on and plays at his best, I don't rate anyone to beat him.
That is precisely my feeling about Serral. He can have this aura of invincibility, which makes everything seem so effortless. There is always the "yes, and..." with his kind of play. And there is usually no flashy moment that makes you say "what a play", it is just outright dominance that no one can compete with.
"Well, I think, I think people don't understand that if you play against Serral and if you play against Maru or Rogue, it's just, you know, it's different things. Sometimes against Serral, most people feel hopeless; it's like you cannot do anything. This guy just plays in a way that he leaves you no opening. Like his scouting is perfect; his late game is perfect; so what are you really playing for? Meanwhile someone like Maru and Rogue, they do a lot of mistakes. I don't want to, like, underplay them, but I think it's you know it's common knowledge that Maru has some weaknesses; Rogue has some weaknesses."
Obviously, Reynor himself has his biases, but I found it interesting to hear this from a pro, a world champion at that, who has actually faced all these players.
And still Reynor has a better record against Serral than vs Maru
I guess reynor should look at his record first, before he expresses how he feels. Silly Reynor.
When Maru said that Rogue is the stronger Zerg compared to Serral people said he's just hyping up his teammate/buddy. Something similar might be going on with Reynor.
Reynor has a clear incentive to hype Serral over Maru - if he had supported Maru > Serral, then the only reasonable explanation for Serral's win record over Maru is that ZvT is Zerg favored, but with that deduction, Reynor's losing record vs. Maru becomes irrefutable proof that Maru > him (Reynor).
Of course, it is still inexcusable that if Serral can beat Maru as a Zerg, why can't Reynor? Therefore no choice for him left but to say Serral is GOAT.
Is this why quite a few top Koreans say basically the same thing?
It’s not like their respective careers aren’t somewhat borne out by what Reynor said. Even if the ‘weakness’ is merely a bit of inconsistency and they’re on a par on their best days, Rogue can blow very hot and quite cold, and Maru’s not averse to occasionally donating the odd set with some bafflingly bad build (as Reynor well knows)
I haven’t heard him say it, I imagine if Reynor was directly asked he’d put Serral on another level to himself as well, despite having a decent H2H and some big titles of his own.
Reynor and pretty much every other Zerg have had their ZvP issues in recent months in the bigger tournies, especially if herO was involved and Serral just beat him down pretty easily yesterday. Intrigued to see how he goes for the rest of it
You know how players can put those little comments in their GSL intro cards now? Reynor's was "budget Serral." I think that's a pretty direct acknowledgement.
On May 12 2024 02:19 Mizenhauer wrote: GOAT Addendum: Maru and the perception of Code S
With Code S fully underway, we find ourselves in an increasingly familiar situation. Maru, fresh off claiming his eighth Code S title, has already advanced to the Round of 8, and looks poised to win the tournament for a ninth time.
Maru’s position as the undisputed best player in South Korea is far from surprising. Every truly great player leaves behind a legacy and Maru’s will inevitably be tied to his complete dominance of the most prestigious competition in StarCraft II history. Four titles ahead of the closest contender, Maru is the unquestioned king of Code S. But, given how absolute his reign has been, his success begs questions. One of which is, how do we evaluate Maru’s future success in a competition in which he has lapped the field time and again?
While some might quibble about the current level of competition, Code S remains the gold standard when it comes to individual competition. There are events with larger prize pools and stiffer competition, but none can best Code S when it comes to historical significance and name value. Fourteen years ago, in the nascent days of Wings of Liberty, Mvp, NesTea and MC built their reputation on Code S titles. INnoVation, Zest and Rain continued that tradition—defying the odds by winning seasons of Code S where two thirds of the participants were viable championship contenders. Stats and Rogue added their names to the ledgers in Legacy of the Void and, even now, with an inarguably diminished scene, winning Code S secures you an indelible place in StarCraft II history. TY and Dark may have only won the competition twice, but those triumphs rank among the greatest accomplishments of their decorated careers.
Maru earned his first Korean Individual League trophy in 2013, before doubling his trophy haul during Season 1 of SSL two years later. But, it wasn’t until 2018 that he finally captured the Code S title which had eluded him for eight years.
He followed that up by winning the next three seasons, as well—instantly catapulting himself ahead of Mvp (who had held the record for most championships since 2011). Six years removed from his fourth title, Maru is the undisputed master of Code S. He has won eight of the 17 Seasons held from 2018 onwards. With another three second place finishes to his name, Maru has reached the finals of 65% of the seasons held over the past six years. And, while Maru already possessed one of the highest win percentages in Code S history at 61% by the end of 2020, the steady departure of viable contenders has ballooned his win rate to the verge of absurdity.
While Maru’s grasp on Code S has gone largely uncontested since 2018, the retirement of TY and Stats in 2021, as well as Rogue in 2022 have only tightened his grip. Maru’s record in Code S since the start of 2022 is an astounding 82-42 (67%) in games and 34-12 (74%) in matches. His closest rival during this period, Dark, is 62-47 (57%) in games and 25-12 (68%) in matches. As it stands, Maru has won over 350 games in Code S—a mark that exceeds his closest competitor by more than 100.
Overall, Maru has won four of the five seasons of Code S held since Rogue departed for the military. And, while some might point to the absence of four time champion as one of the reasons for Maru’s recent success, one can’t ignore that Maru pulled this trick when he won four seasons in a row back in 2018 and 2019. He shattered numerous records along the way—becoming the first player to win two consecutive seasons of Code S since NesTea did so in 2010, before increasing his trophy haul to four within the span of ten months. Maru matched NesTea in other ways, becoming the first player to sweep the finals of Code S since the IM Zerg mauled InCa in 2011. Maru tied soO’s record for the most consecutive final appearances (four) and broke Mvp’s record of three Code S titles. Season by season Maru climbed the ladder of the greatest players to ever participate in the competition, with each trophy drastically altering his career. His first victory was long overdue for someone of his talent. His second was the start of something special. His third put him level with Mvp and his fourth was his ascension to a tier all his own.
Then again, it doesn’t feel like it did over a half decade ago. Maru’s first four titles were something out of an epic tale. He wasn’t just defeating his peers, he was grappling fate, logic and the weight of history into submission. His fifth title, the G5L, felt similarly profound—the realization of a collective dream a dozen years in the making.
Nowadays, Maru’s wins border on deflating. Maru was never truly threatened in the most recent season of Code S. Even Cure and herO, the opponents against whom Maru faced off in the semifinals and finals respectively, only managed to steal one game between them. After that Maru took the stage and kissed the Code S trophy amid a shower of confetti for the eighth time. Simply put, he has transformed wonderment into inevitability.
I needed something to break up this massive block of text and this fits the bill
Regardless of what some might insist, the majority of the best players in the world still hail from South Korea. These aren’t the “glory days” where 15 of the 16 qualifiers for the 2015 WCS Global Finals were Korean, Code S awarded over 100,000 dollars and weekenders were a feeding ground for Koreans traveling abroad. That era is gone, but Code S is littered with talented players and all time greats. In fact, while the last three “World Championship” quality events (IEM Katowice 2023, 2024 and Gamers8 2023) were won by foreigners, Koreans took up five of the eight quarterfinal spots and, by and large, outperformed their foreign opposition in the group stage. Serral, Reynor and Clem have illustrated they can compete and defeat top tier Korean pros, but the rest of the foreign scene struggles mightily with players like SHIN, ByuN or Classic—all of whom have had limited success in Code S over the past few years.
Code S may not have as many competitors or the depth of talent it once had, but the results of Group B (and the impending Group of Death consisting of Cure, Stats, Dark and Rogue) prove that every victory, even those in the opening round, are hard fought and well deserved. Ten different players have reached the semifinals of Code S dating back to the first season of 2023. Maru and Cure managed to make it on three occasions but, outside of that, only GuMiho and Dark logged more than one appearance—with ByuN, Bunny, Classic, Solar, herO and Stats settling for a single trip.
The honest truth is there isn’t a progamer in Korea capable of reliably defeating Maru at the moment. herO denied Maru the G5L only two years ago, but Maru’s 4-1 victory in the finals of the most recent season of Code S further illustrated the gulf between him and second best. There isn’t a Protoss in Korea who can rival herO, but even he is nothing more than fodder—at least in Code S.
There is always a note of resignation when Maru wins Code S, but even the harshest critic has to admit his brilliance is undeniable. How many times have we watched Maru’s opponents shatter his economy, reset his tank count or get ahead on bases only for them to flail helplessly once Maru starts to work his magic? There is perhaps no better example of the discrepancy between Maru and his peers than Cure. Maru’s former teammate has been the second best Korean Terran since TY retired, but the two of them could never be confused for one another. Maru 5-0 record against Cure in offline Best of 5+ over the past four years is evidence enough. But when you take into account the fact that Maru’s chances of beating Cure in Best of 3 (70%) rises to an even more daunting 78% in a seven game series, it’s clear as day that Cure needs everything to break his way if he wants to win Code S—including dodging Maru.
The same goes for Dark, who Aligulac gives a 37% chance of beating Maru in a Best of 7. This pattern also applies to herO, whose 4-1 defeat in Code S (which happens 15% of the time according to Aligulac) lines up nicely with Maru’s 56% chance of victory. For once, the eye test lines up with the math. Maru looks, feels, and is the favorite in every match he plays.
All of this begs a question—if Maru’s triumphs in Code S feel so insubstantial, how do subsequent victories affect his legacy and his position as one of the greatest of all time? There is an argument to be made that future titles are simply gratuitous. How much does it matter if Maru retires with nine, 10 or 19 Code S titles? He has already long since claimed dominion over the event and, by extension, Korean StarCraft II.
Alternatively, the fact that Maru outpaces his closest competitor (Rogue) by a full four Code S titles while simultaneously retaining his position as the most likely player to win the event going forward means each Championship has an exponential effect on his legacy rather than a linear one. After all, if Maru retired with twelve Code S titles while everyone else was left languishing with four or less, how could that not further Maru’s case? As much as some seek mitigating factors such as the lack of top tier talent, the relative dearth of competitive players compared to the past or the fact that many players’ pursuit of Maru was effectively ended prematurely by military service, Maru is the one winning Code S at a never before imagined rate—not Dark, not Cure and not herO. It’s Maru that continues to add to his unmatched trophy collection with each passing season.
At the end of the day, Code S hasn’t changed all that much. The format has shifted and the prize money has decreased, but navigating the gauntlet that is Code S is as challenging a prospect as any that exists in the game today. The fact that Maru has won the event so often and with such apparent ease is a testament to his greatness and the continued significance of Code S.
It’s tempting to say that the most prestigious event in StarCraft II is no longer about who qualifies or how balanced the game is at the time. That it’s not about who catches fire or who devises the most effective strategy. There are moments where it certainly seems that if Maru executes as he should and avoids some grave mistake along the way, that this Season of Code S is destined to become his for the ninth time. Fortunately, we only have to wait until June 27th to get our answer. Then we can start asking the same questions all over again.
On May 12 2024 02:19 Mizenhauer wrote: GOAT Addendum: Maru and the perception of Code S
With Code S fully underway, we find ourselves in an increasingly familiar situation. Maru, fresh off claiming his eighth Code S title, has already advanced to the Round of 8, and looks poised to win the tournament for a ninth time.
Maru’s position as the undisputed best player in South Korea is far from surprising. Every truly great player leaves behind a legacy and Maru’s will inevitably be tied to his complete dominance of the most prestigious competition in StarCraft II history. Four titles ahead of the closest contender, Maru is the unquestioned king of Code S. But, given how absolute his reign has been, his success begs questions. One of which is, how do we evaluate Maru’s future success in a competition in which he has lapped the field time and again?
While some might quibble about the current level of competition, Code S remains the gold standard when it comes to individual competition. There are events with larger prize pools and stiffer competition, but none can best Code S when it comes to historical significance and name value. Fourteen years ago, in the nascent days of Wings of Liberty, Mvp, NesTea and MC built their reputation on Code S titles. INnoVation, Zest and Rain continued that tradition—defying the odds by winning seasons of Code S where two thirds of the participants were viable championship contenders. Stats and Rogue added their names to the ledgers in Legacy of the Void and, even now, with an inarguably diminished scene, winning Code S secures you an indelible place in StarCraft II history. TY and Dark may have only won the competition twice, but those triumphs rank among the greatest accomplishments of their decorated careers.
Maru earned his first Korean Individual League trophy in 2013, before doubling his trophy haul during Season 1 of SSL two years later. But, it wasn’t until 2018 that he finally captured the Code S title which had eluded him for eight years.
He followed that up by winning the next three seasons, as well—instantly catapulting himself ahead of Mvp (who had held the record for most championships since 2011). Six years removed from his fourth title, Maru is the undisputed master of Code S. He has won eight of the 17 Seasons held from 2018 onwards. With another three second place finishes to his name, Maru has reached the finals of 65% of the seasons held over the past six years. And, while Maru already possessed one of the highest win percentages in Code S history at 61% by the end of 2020, the steady departure of viable contenders has ballooned his win rate to the verge of absurdity.
While Maru’s grasp on Code S has gone largely uncontested since 2018, the retirement of TY and Stats in 2021, as well as Rogue in 2022 have only tightened his grip. Maru’s record in Code S since the start of 2022 is an astounding 82-42 (67%) in games and 34-12 (74%) in matches. His closest rival during this period, Dark, is 62-47 (57%) in games and 25-12 (68%) in matches. As it stands, Maru has won over 350 games in Code S—a mark that exceeds his closest competitor by more than 100.
Overall, Maru has won four of the five seasons of Code S held since Rogue departed for the military. And, while some might point to the absence of four time champion as one of the reasons for Maru’s recent success, one can’t ignore that Maru pulled this trick when he won four seasons in a row back in 2018 and 2019. He shattered numerous records along the way—becoming the first player to win two consecutive seasons of Code S since NesTea did so in 2010, before increasing his trophy haul to four within the span of ten months. Maru matched NesTea in other ways, becoming the first player to sweep the finals of Code S since the IM Zerg mauled InCa in 2011. Maru tied soO’s record for the most consecutive final appearances (four) and broke Mvp’s record of three Code S titles. Season by season Maru climbed the ladder of the greatest players to ever participate in the competition, with each trophy drastically altering his career. His first victory was long overdue for someone of his talent. His second was the start of something special. His third put him level with Mvp and his fourth was his ascension to a tier all his own.
Then again, it doesn’t feel like it did over a half decade ago. Maru’s first four titles were something out of an epic tale. He wasn’t just defeating his peers, he was grappling fate, logic and the weight of history into submission. His fifth title, the G5L, felt similarly profound—the realization of a collective dream a dozen years in the making.
Nowadays, Maru’s wins border on deflating. Maru was never truly threatened in the most recent season of Code S. Even Cure and herO, the opponents against whom Maru faced off in the semifinals and finals respectively, only managed to steal one game between them. After that Maru took the stage and kissed the Code S trophy amid a shower of confetti for the eighth time. Simply put, he has transformed wonderment into inevitability.
I needed something to break up this massive block of text and this fits the bill
Regardless of what some might insist, the majority of the best players in the world still hail from South Korea. These aren’t the “glory days” where 15 of the 16 qualifiers for the 2015 WCS Global Finals were Korean, Code S awarded over 100,000 dollars and weekenders were a feeding ground for Koreans traveling abroad. That era is gone, but Code S is littered with talented players and all time greats. In fact, while the last three “World Championship” quality events (IEM Katowice 2023, 2024 and Gamers8 2023) were won by foreigners, Koreans took up five of the eight quarterfinal spots and, by and large, outperformed their foreign opposition in the group stage. Serral, Reynor and Clem have illustrated they can compete and defeat top tier Korean pros, but the rest of the foreign scene struggles mightily with players like SHIN, ByuN or Classic—all of whom have had limited success in Code S over the past few years.
Code S may not have as many competitors or the depth of talent it once had, but the results of Group B (and the impending Group of Death consisting of Cure, Stats, Dark and Rogue) prove that every victory, even those in the opening round, are hard fought and well deserved. Ten different players have reached the semifinals of Code S dating back to the first season of 2023. Maru and Cure managed to make it on three occasions but, outside of that, only GuMiho and Dark logged more than one appearance—with ByuN, Bunny, Classic, Solar, herO and Stats settling for a single trip.
The honest truth is there isn’t a progamer in Korea capable of reliably defeating Maru at the moment. herO denied Maru the G5L only two years ago, but Maru’s 4-1 victory in the finals of the most recent season of Code S further illustrated the gulf between him and second best. There isn’t a Protoss in Korea who can rival herO, but even he is nothing more than fodder—at least in Code S.
There is always a note of resignation when Maru wins Code S, but even the harshest critic has to admit his brilliance is undeniable. How many times have we watched Maru’s opponents shatter his economy, reset his tank count or get ahead on bases only for them to flail helplessly once Maru starts to work his magic? There is perhaps no better example of the discrepancy between Maru and his peers than Cure. Maru’s former teammate has been the second best Korean Terran since TY retired, but the two of them could never be confused for one another. Maru 5-0 record against Cure in offline Best of 5+ over the past four years is evidence enough. But when you take into account the fact that Maru’s chances of beating Cure in Best of 3 (70%) rises to an even more daunting 78% in a seven game series, it’s clear as day that Cure needs everything to break his way if he wants to win Code S—including dodging Maru.
The same goes for Dark, who Aligulac gives a 37% chance of beating Maru in a Best of 7. This pattern also applies to herO, whose 4-1 defeat in Code S (which happens 15% of the time according to Aligulac) lines up nicely with Maru’s 56% chance of victory. For once, the eye test lines up with the math. Maru looks, feels, and is the favorite in every match he plays.
All of this begs a question—if Maru’s triumphs in Code S feel so insubstantial, how do subsequent victories affect his legacy and his position as one of the greatest of all time? There is an argument to be made that future titles are simply gratuitous. How much does it matter if Maru retires with nine, 10 or 19 Code S titles? He has already long since claimed dominion over the event and, by extension, Korean StarCraft II.
Alternatively, the fact that Maru outpaces his closest competitor (Rogue) by a full four Code S titles while simultaneously retaining his position as the most likely player to win the event going forward means each Championship has an exponential effect on his legacy rather than a linear one. After all, if Maru retired with twelve Code S titles while everyone else was left languishing with four or less, how could that not further Maru’s case? As much as some seek mitigating factors such as the lack of top tier talent, the relative dearth of competitive players compared to the past or the fact that many players’ pursuit of Maru was effectively ended prematurely by military service, Maru is the one winning Code S at a never before imagined rate—not Dark, not Cure and not herO. It’s Maru that continues to add to his unmatched trophy collection with each passing season.
At the end of the day, Code S hasn’t changed all that much. The format has shifted and the prize money has decreased, but navigating the gauntlet that is Code S is as challenging a prospect as any that exists in the game today. The fact that Maru has won the event so often and with such apparent ease is a testament to his greatness and the continued significance of Code S.
It’s tempting to say that the most prestigious event in StarCraft II is no longer about who qualifies or how balanced the game is at the time. That it’s not about who catches fire or who devises the most effective strategy. There are moments where it certainly seems that if Maru executes as he should and avoids some grave mistake along the way, that this Season of Code S is destined to become his for the ninth time. Fortunately, we only have to wait until June 27th to get our answer. Then we can start asking the same questions all over again.
On May 12 2024 02:19 Mizenhauer wrote: GOAT Addendum: Maru and the perception of Code S
With Code S fully underway, we find ourselves in an increasingly familiar situation. Maru, fresh off claiming his eighth Code S title, has already advanced to the Round of 8, and looks poised to win the tournament for a ninth time.
Maru’s position as the undisputed best player in South Korea is far from surprising. Every truly great player leaves behind a legacy and Maru’s will inevitably be tied to his complete dominance of the most prestigious competition in StarCraft II history. Four titles ahead of the closest contender, Maru is the unquestioned king of Code S. But, given how absolute his reign has been, his success begs questions. One of which is, how do we evaluate Maru’s future success in a competition in which he has lapped the field time and again?
While some might quibble about the current level of competition, Code S remains the gold standard when it comes to individual competition. There are events with larger prize pools and stiffer competition, but none can best Code S when it comes to historical significance and name value. Fourteen years ago, in the nascent days of Wings of Liberty, Mvp, NesTea and MC built their reputation on Code S titles. INnoVation, Zest and Rain continued that tradition—defying the odds by winning seasons of Code S where two thirds of the participants were viable championship contenders. Stats and Rogue added their names to the ledgers in Legacy of the Void and, even now, with an inarguably diminished scene, winning Code S secures you an indelible place in StarCraft II history. TY and Dark may have only won the competition twice, but those triumphs rank among the greatest accomplishments of their decorated careers.
Maru earned his first Korean Individual League trophy in 2013, before doubling his trophy haul during Season 1 of SSL two years later. But, it wasn’t until 2018 that he finally captured the Code S title which had eluded him for eight years.
He followed that up by winning the next three seasons, as well—instantly catapulting himself ahead of Mvp (who had held the record for most championships since 2011). Six years removed from his fourth title, Maru is the undisputed master of Code S. He has won eight of the 17 Seasons held from 2018 onwards. With another three second place finishes to his name, Maru has reached the finals of 65% of the seasons held over the past six years. And, while Maru already possessed one of the highest win percentages in Code S history at 61% by the end of 2020, the steady departure of viable contenders has ballooned his win rate to the verge of absurdity.
While Maru’s grasp on Code S has gone largely uncontested since 2018, the retirement of TY and Stats in 2021, as well as Rogue in 2022 have only tightened his grip. Maru’s record in Code S since the start of 2022 is an astounding 82-42 (67%) in games and 34-12 (74%) in matches. His closest rival during this period, Dark, is 62-47 (57%) in games and 25-12 (68%) in matches. As it stands, Maru has won over 350 games in Code S—a mark that exceeds his closest competitor by more than 100.
Overall, Maru has won four of the five seasons of Code S held since Rogue departed for the military. And, while some might point to the absence of four time champion as one of the reasons for Maru’s recent success, one can’t ignore that Maru pulled this trick when he won four seasons in a row back in 2018 and 2019. He shattered numerous records along the way—becoming the first player to win two consecutive seasons of Code S since NesTea did so in 2010, before increasing his trophy haul to four within the span of ten months. Maru matched NesTea in other ways, becoming the first player to sweep the finals of Code S since the IM Zerg mauled InCa in 2011. Maru tied soO’s record for the most consecutive final appearances (four) and broke Mvp’s record of three Code S titles. Season by season Maru climbed the ladder of the greatest players to ever participate in the competition, with each trophy drastically altering his career. His first victory was long overdue for someone of his talent. His second was the start of something special. His third put him level with Mvp and his fourth was his ascension to a tier all his own.
Then again, it doesn’t feel like it did over a half decade ago. Maru’s first four titles were something out of an epic tale. He wasn’t just defeating his peers, he was grappling fate, logic and the weight of history into submission. His fifth title, the G5L, felt similarly profound—the realization of a collective dream a dozen years in the making.
Nowadays, Maru’s wins border on deflating. Maru was never truly threatened in the most recent season of Code S. Even Cure and herO, the opponents against whom Maru faced off in the semifinals and finals respectively, only managed to steal one game between them. After that Maru took the stage and kissed the Code S trophy amid a shower of confetti for the eighth time. Simply put, he has transformed wonderment into inevitability.
I needed something to break up this massive block of text and this fits the bill
Regardless of what some might insist, the majority of the best players in the world still hail from South Korea. These aren’t the “glory days” where 15 of the 16 qualifiers for the 2015 WCS Global Finals were Korean, Code S awarded over 100,000 dollars and weekenders were a feeding ground for Koreans traveling abroad. That era is gone, but Code S is littered with talented players and all time greats. In fact, while the last three “World Championship” quality events (IEM Katowice 2023, 2024 and Gamers8 2023) were won by foreigners, Koreans took up five of the eight quarterfinal spots and, by and large, outperformed their foreign opposition in the group stage. Serral, Reynor and Clem have illustrated they can compete and defeat top tier Korean pros, but the rest of the foreign scene struggles mightily with players like SHIN, ByuN or Classic—all of whom have had limited success in Code S over the past few years.
Code S may not have as many competitors or the depth of talent it once had, but the results of Group B (and the impending Group of Death consisting of Cure, Stats, Dark and Rogue) prove that every victory, even those in the opening round, are hard fought and well deserved. Ten different players have reached the semifinals of Code S dating back to the first season of 2023. Maru and Cure managed to make it on three occasions but, outside of that, only GuMiho and Dark logged more than one appearance—with ByuN, Bunny, Classic, Solar, herO and Stats settling for a single trip.
The honest truth is there isn’t a progamer in Korea capable of reliably defeating Maru at the moment. herO denied Maru the G5L only two years ago, but Maru’s 4-1 victory in the finals of the most recent season of Code S further illustrated the gulf between him and second best. There isn’t a Protoss in Korea who can rival herO, but even he is nothing more than fodder—at least in Code S.
There is always a note of resignation when Maru wins Code S, but even the harshest critic has to admit his brilliance is undeniable. How many times have we watched Maru’s opponents shatter his economy, reset his tank count or get ahead on bases only for them to flail helplessly once Maru starts to work his magic? There is perhaps no better example of the discrepancy between Maru and his peers than Cure. Maru’s former teammate has been the second best Korean Terran since TY retired, but the two of them could never be confused for one another. Maru 5-0 record against Cure in offline Best of 5+ over the past four years is evidence enough. But when you take into account the fact that Maru’s chances of beating Cure in Best of 3 (70%) rises to an even more daunting 78% in a seven game series, it’s clear as day that Cure needs everything to break his way if he wants to win Code S—including dodging Maru.
The same goes for Dark, who Aligulac gives a 37% chance of beating Maru in a Best of 7. This pattern also applies to herO, whose 4-1 defeat in Code S (which happens 15% of the time according to Aligulac) lines up nicely with Maru’s 56% chance of victory. For once, the eye test lines up with the math. Maru looks, feels, and is the favorite in every match he plays.
All of this begs a question—if Maru’s triumphs in Code S feel so insubstantial, how do subsequent victories affect his legacy and his position as one of the greatest of all time? There is an argument to be made that future titles are simply gratuitous. How much does it matter if Maru retires with nine, 10 or 19 Code S titles? He has already long since claimed dominion over the event and, by extension, Korean StarCraft II.
Alternatively, the fact that Maru outpaces his closest competitor (Rogue) by a full four Code S titles while simultaneously retaining his position as the most likely player to win the event going forward means each Championship has an exponential effect on his legacy rather than a linear one. After all, if Maru retired with twelve Code S titles while everyone else was left languishing with four or less, how could that not further Maru’s case? As much as some seek mitigating factors such as the lack of top tier talent, the relative dearth of competitive players compared to the past or the fact that many players’ pursuit of Maru was effectively ended prematurely by military service, Maru is the one winning Code S at a never before imagined rate—not Dark, not Cure and not herO. It’s Maru that continues to add to his unmatched trophy collection with each passing season.
At the end of the day, Code S hasn’t changed all that much. The format has shifted and the prize money has decreased, but navigating the gauntlet that is Code S is as challenging a prospect as any that exists in the game today. The fact that Maru has won the event so often and with such apparent ease is a testament to his greatness and the continued significance of Code S.
It’s tempting to say that the most prestigious event in StarCraft II is no longer about who qualifies or how balanced the game is at the time. That it’s not about who catches fire or who devises the most effective strategy. There are moments where it certainly seems that if Maru executes as he should and avoids some grave mistake along the way, that this Season of Code S is destined to become his for the ninth time. Fortunately, we only have to wait until June 27th to get our answer. Then we can start asking the same questions all over again.
Hey Mizen, you think it would be a nice idea to make an American GOAT list??
Ohh, ley me try that one. For the sake of the list, I'm not considering Select, Polt or Violet.
1. Neeb (obviously) 2. Scarlett (also obviously) 3. Huk (since he won mixed event) 4. Special (Arguably a stronger and more consistent player than Huk but I can't put him higher since he never won any non-American events) 5. Idra (Again weaker player than some behind him, but he won an IEM and I do take into acount his influence outside the game) 6. Kelazhur (Super talented, some marquee performance even if he made a career of losing to Special) 7. Astrea (The first player to really challenge the Scarlett/Neeb grasp on the NA scene and become a top foreigner, even if Future also managed some moderate success) 8. Nina (One of the most stable player for a decade now, altough she's lacking big results, she has managed a few upsets across the years.) 9. Masa (Imo one of the most underrated player in all of SC2 history and a natural talent. He won a lot of big NA lan and of course upset Scarlett at WESG Canada. Also has some good Dreamhack and WCS results, well for a North American. 10. Vibe (He kind of get it by default because he had probably the slightly higher peak out of everyone of else, even if it was very short and during BL-Infestor, but I could be conviced of any of the honorable mentions
On May 12 2024 02:19 Mizenhauer wrote: GOAT Addendum: Maru and the perception of Code S
With Code S fully underway, we find ourselves in an increasingly familiar situation. Maru, fresh off claiming his eighth Code S title, has already advanced to the Round of 8, and looks poised to win the tournament for a ninth time.
Maru’s position as the undisputed best player in South Korea is far from surprising. Every truly great player leaves behind a legacy and Maru’s will inevitably be tied to his complete dominance of the most prestigious competition in StarCraft II history. Four titles ahead of the closest contender, Maru is the unquestioned king of Code S. But, given how absolute his reign has been, his success begs questions. One of which is, how do we evaluate Maru’s future success in a competition in which he has lapped the field time and again?
While some might quibble about the current level of competition, Code S remains the gold standard when it comes to individual competition. There are events with larger prize pools and stiffer competition, but none can best Code S when it comes to historical significance and name value. Fourteen years ago, in the nascent days of Wings of Liberty, Mvp, NesTea and MC built their reputation on Code S titles. INnoVation, Zest and Rain continued that tradition—defying the odds by winning seasons of Code S where two thirds of the participants were viable championship contenders. Stats and Rogue added their names to the ledgers in Legacy of the Void and, even now, with an inarguably diminished scene, winning Code S secures you an indelible place in StarCraft II history. TY and Dark may have only won the competition twice, but those triumphs rank among the greatest accomplishments of their decorated careers.
Maru earned his first Korean Individual League trophy in 2013, before doubling his trophy haul during Season 1 of SSL two years later. But, it wasn’t until 2018 that he finally captured the Code S title which had eluded him for eight years.
He followed that up by winning the next three seasons, as well—instantly catapulting himself ahead of Mvp (who had held the record for most championships since 2011). Six years removed from his fourth title, Maru is the undisputed master of Code S. He has won eight of the 17 Seasons held from 2018 onwards. With another three second place finishes to his name, Maru has reached the finals of 65% of the seasons held over the past six years. And, while Maru already possessed one of the highest win percentages in Code S history at 61% by the end of 2020, the steady departure of viable contenders has ballooned his win rate to the verge of absurdity.
While Maru’s grasp on Code S has gone largely uncontested since 2018, the retirement of TY and Stats in 2021, as well as Rogue in 2022 have only tightened his grip. Maru’s record in Code S since the start of 2022 is an astounding 82-42 (67%) in games and 34-12 (74%) in matches. His closest rival during this period, Dark, is 62-47 (57%) in games and 25-12 (68%) in matches. As it stands, Maru has won over 350 games in Code S—a mark that exceeds his closest competitor by more than 100.
Overall, Maru has won four of the five seasons of Code S held since Rogue departed for the military. And, while some might point to the absence of four time champion as one of the reasons for Maru’s recent success, one can’t ignore that Maru pulled this trick when he won four seasons in a row back in 2018 and 2019. He shattered numerous records along the way—becoming the first player to win two consecutive seasons of Code S since NesTea did so in 2010, before increasing his trophy haul to four within the span of ten months. Maru matched NesTea in other ways, becoming the first player to sweep the finals of Code S since the IM Zerg mauled InCa in 2011. Maru tied soO’s record for the most consecutive final appearances (four) and broke Mvp’s record of three Code S titles. Season by season Maru climbed the ladder of the greatest players to ever participate in the competition, with each trophy drastically altering his career. His first victory was long overdue for someone of his talent. His second was the start of something special. His third put him level with Mvp and his fourth was his ascension to a tier all his own.
Then again, it doesn’t feel like it did over a half decade ago. Maru’s first four titles were something out of an epic tale. He wasn’t just defeating his peers, he was grappling fate, logic and the weight of history into submission. His fifth title, the G5L, felt similarly profound—the realization of a collective dream a dozen years in the making.
Nowadays, Maru’s wins border on deflating. Maru was never truly threatened in the most recent season of Code S. Even Cure and herO, the opponents against whom Maru faced off in the semifinals and finals respectively, only managed to steal one game between them. After that Maru took the stage and kissed the Code S trophy amid a shower of confetti for the eighth time. Simply put, he has transformed wonderment into inevitability.
I needed something to break up this massive block of text and this fits the bill
Regardless of what some might insist, the majority of the best players in the world still hail from South Korea. These aren’t the “glory days” where 15 of the 16 qualifiers for the 2015 WCS Global Finals were Korean, Code S awarded over 100,000 dollars and weekenders were a feeding ground for Koreans traveling abroad. That era is gone, but Code S is littered with talented players and all time greats. In fact, while the last three “World Championship” quality events (IEM Katowice 2023, 2024 and Gamers8 2023) were won by foreigners, Koreans took up five of the eight quarterfinal spots and, by and large, outperformed their foreign opposition in the group stage. Serral, Reynor and Clem have illustrated they can compete and defeat top tier Korean pros, but the rest of the foreign scene struggles mightily with players like SHIN, ByuN or Classic—all of whom have had limited success in Code S over the past few years.
Code S may not have as many competitors or the depth of talent it once had, but the results of Group B (and the impending Group of Death consisting of Cure, Stats, Dark and Rogue) prove that every victory, even those in the opening round, are hard fought and well deserved. Ten different players have reached the semifinals of Code S dating back to the first season of 2023. Maru and Cure managed to make it on three occasions but, outside of that, only GuMiho and Dark logged more than one appearance—with ByuN, Bunny, Classic, Solar, herO and Stats settling for a single trip.
The honest truth is there isn’t a progamer in Korea capable of reliably defeating Maru at the moment. herO denied Maru the G5L only two years ago, but Maru’s 4-1 victory in the finals of the most recent season of Code S further illustrated the gulf between him and second best. There isn’t a Protoss in Korea who can rival herO, but even he is nothing more than fodder—at least in Code S.
There is always a note of resignation when Maru wins Code S, but even the harshest critic has to admit his brilliance is undeniable. How many times have we watched Maru’s opponents shatter his economy, reset his tank count or get ahead on bases only for them to flail helplessly once Maru starts to work his magic? There is perhaps no better example of the discrepancy between Maru and his peers than Cure. Maru’s former teammate has been the second best Korean Terran since TY retired, but the two of them could never be confused for one another. Maru 5-0 record against Cure in offline Best of 5+ over the past four years is evidence enough. But when you take into account the fact that Maru’s chances of beating Cure in Best of 3 (70%) rises to an even more daunting 78% in a seven game series, it’s clear as day that Cure needs everything to break his way if he wants to win Code S—including dodging Maru.
The same goes for Dark, who Aligulac gives a 37% chance of beating Maru in a Best of 7. This pattern also applies to herO, whose 4-1 defeat in Code S (which happens 15% of the time according to Aligulac) lines up nicely with Maru’s 56% chance of victory. For once, the eye test lines up with the math. Maru looks, feels, and is the favorite in every match he plays.
All of this begs a question—if Maru’s triumphs in Code S feel so insubstantial, how do subsequent victories affect his legacy and his position as one of the greatest of all time? There is an argument to be made that future titles are simply gratuitous. How much does it matter if Maru retires with nine, 10 or 19 Code S titles? He has already long since claimed dominion over the event and, by extension, Korean StarCraft II.
Alternatively, the fact that Maru outpaces his closest competitor (Rogue) by a full four Code S titles while simultaneously retaining his position as the most likely player to win the event going forward means each Championship has an exponential effect on his legacy rather than a linear one. After all, if Maru retired with twelve Code S titles while everyone else was left languishing with four or less, how could that not further Maru’s case? As much as some seek mitigating factors such as the lack of top tier talent, the relative dearth of competitive players compared to the past or the fact that many players’ pursuit of Maru was effectively ended prematurely by military service, Maru is the one winning Code S at a never before imagined rate—not Dark, not Cure and not herO. It’s Maru that continues to add to his unmatched trophy collection with each passing season.
At the end of the day, Code S hasn’t changed all that much. The format has shifted and the prize money has decreased, but navigating the gauntlet that is Code S is as challenging a prospect as any that exists in the game today. The fact that Maru has won the event so often and with such apparent ease is a testament to his greatness and the continued significance of Code S.
It’s tempting to say that the most prestigious event in StarCraft II is no longer about who qualifies or how balanced the game is at the time. That it’s not about who catches fire or who devises the most effective strategy. There are moments where it certainly seems that if Maru executes as he should and avoids some grave mistake along the way, that this Season of Code S is destined to become his for the ninth time. Fortunately, we only have to wait until June 27th to get our answer. Then we can start asking the same questions all over again.
Hey Mizen, you think it would be a nice idea to make an American GOAT list??
Ohh, ley me try that one. For the sake of the list, I'm not considering Select, Polt or Violet.
1. Neeb (obviously) 2. Scarlett (also obviously) 3. Huk (since he won mixed event) 4. Special (Arguably a stronger and more consistent player than Huk but I can't put him higher since he never won any non-American events) 5. Idra (Again weaker player than some behind him, but he won an IEM and I do take into acount his influence outside the game) 6. Kelazhur (Super talented, some marquee performance even if he made a career of losing to Special) 7. Astrea (The first player to really challenge the Scarlett/Neeb grasp on the NA scene and become a top foreigner, even if Future also managed some moderate success) 8. Nina (One of the most stable player for a decade now, altough she's lacking big results, she has managed a few upsets across the years.) 9. Masa (Imo one of the most underrated player in all of SC2 history and a natural talent. He won a lot of big NA lan and of course upset Scarlett at WESG Canada. Also has some good Dreamhack and WCS results, well for a North American. 10. Vibe (He kind of get it by default because he had probably the slightly higher peak out of everyone of else, even if it was very short and during BL-Infestor, but I could be conviced of any of the honorable mentions
On May 12 2024 02:19 Mizenhauer wrote: GOAT Addendum: Maru and the perception of Code S
With Code S fully underway, we find ourselves in an increasingly familiar situation. Maru, fresh off claiming his eighth Code S title, has already advanced to the Round of 8, and looks poised to win the tournament for a ninth time.
Maru’s position as the undisputed best player in South Korea is far from surprising. Every truly great player leaves behind a legacy and Maru’s will inevitably be tied to his complete dominance of the most prestigious competition in StarCraft II history. Four titles ahead of the closest contender, Maru is the unquestioned king of Code S. But, given how absolute his reign has been, his success begs questions. One of which is, how do we evaluate Maru’s future success in a competition in which he has lapped the field time and again?
While some might quibble about the current level of competition, Code S remains the gold standard when it comes to individual competition. There are events with larger prize pools and stiffer competition, but none can best Code S when it comes to historical significance and name value. Fourteen years ago, in the nascent days of Wings of Liberty, Mvp, NesTea and MC built their reputation on Code S titles. INnoVation, Zest and Rain continued that tradition—defying the odds by winning seasons of Code S where two thirds of the participants were viable championship contenders. Stats and Rogue added their names to the ledgers in Legacy of the Void and, even now, with an inarguably diminished scene, winning Code S secures you an indelible place in StarCraft II history. TY and Dark may have only won the competition twice, but those triumphs rank among the greatest accomplishments of their decorated careers.
Maru earned his first Korean Individual League trophy in 2013, before doubling his trophy haul during Season 1 of SSL two years later. But, it wasn’t until 2018 that he finally captured the Code S title which had eluded him for eight years.
He followed that up by winning the next three seasons, as well—instantly catapulting himself ahead of Mvp (who had held the record for most championships since 2011). Six years removed from his fourth title, Maru is the undisputed master of Code S. He has won eight of the 17 Seasons held from 2018 onwards. With another three second place finishes to his name, Maru has reached the finals of 65% of the seasons held over the past six years. And, while Maru already possessed one of the highest win percentages in Code S history at 61% by the end of 2020, the steady departure of viable contenders has ballooned his win rate to the verge of absurdity.
While Maru’s grasp on Code S has gone largely uncontested since 2018, the retirement of TY and Stats in 2021, as well as Rogue in 2022 have only tightened his grip. Maru’s record in Code S since the start of 2022 is an astounding 82-42 (67%) in games and 34-12 (74%) in matches. His closest rival during this period, Dark, is 62-47 (57%) in games and 25-12 (68%) in matches. As it stands, Maru has won over 350 games in Code S—a mark that exceeds his closest competitor by more than 100.
Overall, Maru has won four of the five seasons of Code S held since Rogue departed for the military. And, while some might point to the absence of four time champion as one of the reasons for Maru’s recent success, one can’t ignore that Maru pulled this trick when he won four seasons in a row back in 2018 and 2019. He shattered numerous records along the way—becoming the first player to win two consecutive seasons of Code S since NesTea did so in 2010, before increasing his trophy haul to four within the span of ten months. Maru matched NesTea in other ways, becoming the first player to sweep the finals of Code S since the IM Zerg mauled InCa in 2011. Maru tied soO’s record for the most consecutive final appearances (four) and broke Mvp’s record of three Code S titles. Season by season Maru climbed the ladder of the greatest players to ever participate in the competition, with each trophy drastically altering his career. His first victory was long overdue for someone of his talent. His second was the start of something special. His third put him level with Mvp and his fourth was his ascension to a tier all his own.
Then again, it doesn’t feel like it did over a half decade ago. Maru’s first four titles were something out of an epic tale. He wasn’t just defeating his peers, he was grappling fate, logic and the weight of history into submission. His fifth title, the G5L, felt similarly profound—the realization of a collective dream a dozen years in the making.
Nowadays, Maru’s wins border on deflating. Maru was never truly threatened in the most recent season of Code S. Even Cure and herO, the opponents against whom Maru faced off in the semifinals and finals respectively, only managed to steal one game between them. After that Maru took the stage and kissed the Code S trophy amid a shower of confetti for the eighth time. Simply put, he has transformed wonderment into inevitability.
I needed something to break up this massive block of text and this fits the bill
Regardless of what some might insist, the majority of the best players in the world still hail from South Korea. These aren’t the “glory days” where 15 of the 16 qualifiers for the 2015 WCS Global Finals were Korean, Code S awarded over 100,000 dollars and weekenders were a feeding ground for Koreans traveling abroad. That era is gone, but Code S is littered with talented players and all time greats. In fact, while the last three “World Championship” quality events (IEM Katowice 2023, 2024 and Gamers8 2023) were won by foreigners, Koreans took up five of the eight quarterfinal spots and, by and large, outperformed their foreign opposition in the group stage. Serral, Reynor and Clem have illustrated they can compete and defeat top tier Korean pros, but the rest of the foreign scene struggles mightily with players like SHIN, ByuN or Classic—all of whom have had limited success in Code S over the past few years.
Code S may not have as many competitors or the depth of talent it once had, but the results of Group B (and the impending Group of Death consisting of Cure, Stats, Dark and Rogue) prove that every victory, even those in the opening round, are hard fought and well deserved. Ten different players have reached the semifinals of Code S dating back to the first season of 2023. Maru and Cure managed to make it on three occasions but, outside of that, only GuMiho and Dark logged more than one appearance—with ByuN, Bunny, Classic, Solar, herO and Stats settling for a single trip.
The honest truth is there isn’t a progamer in Korea capable of reliably defeating Maru at the moment. herO denied Maru the G5L only two years ago, but Maru’s 4-1 victory in the finals of the most recent season of Code S further illustrated the gulf between him and second best. There isn’t a Protoss in Korea who can rival herO, but even he is nothing more than fodder—at least in Code S.
There is always a note of resignation when Maru wins Code S, but even the harshest critic has to admit his brilliance is undeniable. How many times have we watched Maru’s opponents shatter his economy, reset his tank count or get ahead on bases only for them to flail helplessly once Maru starts to work his magic? There is perhaps no better example of the discrepancy between Maru and his peers than Cure. Maru’s former teammate has been the second best Korean Terran since TY retired, but the two of them could never be confused for one another. Maru 5-0 record against Cure in offline Best of 5+ over the past four years is evidence enough. But when you take into account the fact that Maru’s chances of beating Cure in Best of 3 (70%) rises to an even more daunting 78% in a seven game series, it’s clear as day that Cure needs everything to break his way if he wants to win Code S—including dodging Maru.
The same goes for Dark, who Aligulac gives a 37% chance of beating Maru in a Best of 7. This pattern also applies to herO, whose 4-1 defeat in Code S (which happens 15% of the time according to Aligulac) lines up nicely with Maru’s 56% chance of victory. For once, the eye test lines up with the math. Maru looks, feels, and is the favorite in every match he plays.
All of this begs a question—if Maru’s triumphs in Code S feel so insubstantial, how do subsequent victories affect his legacy and his position as one of the greatest of all time? There is an argument to be made that future titles are simply gratuitous. How much does it matter if Maru retires with nine, 10 or 19 Code S titles? He has already long since claimed dominion over the event and, by extension, Korean StarCraft II.
Alternatively, the fact that Maru outpaces his closest competitor (Rogue) by a full four Code S titles while simultaneously retaining his position as the most likely player to win the event going forward means each Championship has an exponential effect on his legacy rather than a linear one. After all, if Maru retired with twelve Code S titles while everyone else was left languishing with four or less, how could that not further Maru’s case? As much as some seek mitigating factors such as the lack of top tier talent, the relative dearth of competitive players compared to the past or the fact that many players’ pursuit of Maru was effectively ended prematurely by military service, Maru is the one winning Code S at a never before imagined rate—not Dark, not Cure and not herO. It’s Maru that continues to add to his unmatched trophy collection with each passing season.
At the end of the day, Code S hasn’t changed all that much. The format has shifted and the prize money has decreased, but navigating the gauntlet that is Code S is as challenging a prospect as any that exists in the game today. The fact that Maru has won the event so often and with such apparent ease is a testament to his greatness and the continued significance of Code S.
It’s tempting to say that the most prestigious event in StarCraft II is no longer about who qualifies or how balanced the game is at the time. That it’s not about who catches fire or who devises the most effective strategy. There are moments where it certainly seems that if Maru executes as he should and avoids some grave mistake along the way, that this Season of Code S is destined to become his for the ninth time. Fortunately, we only have to wait until June 27th to get our answer. Then we can start asking the same questions all over again.
Hey Mizen, you think it would be a nice idea to make an American GOAT list??
Ohh, ley me try that one. For the sake of the list, I'm not considering Select, Polt or Violet.
1. Neeb (obviously) 2. Scarlett (also obviously) 3. Huk (since he won mixed event) 4. Special (Arguably a stronger and more consistent player than Huk but I can't put him higher since he never won any non-American events) 5. Idra (Again weaker player than some behind him, but he won an IEM and I do take into acount his influence outside the game) 6. Kelazhur (Super talented, some marquee performance even if he made a career of losing to Special) 7. Astrea (The first player to really challenge the Scarlett/Neeb grasp on the NA scene and become a top foreigner, even if Future also managed some moderate success) 8. Nina (One of the most stable player for a decade now, altough she's lacking big results, she has managed a few upsets across the years.) 9. Masa (Imo one of the most underrated player in all of SC2 history and a natural talent. He won a lot of big NA lan and of course upset Scarlett at WESG Canada. Also has some good Dreamhack and WCS results, well for a North American. 10. Vibe (He kind of get it by default because he had probably the slightly higher peak out of everyone of else, even if it was very short and during BL-Infestor, but I could be conviced of any of the honorable mentions
On May 12 2024 02:19 Mizenhauer wrote: GOAT Addendum: Maru and the perception of Code S
With Code S fully underway, we find ourselves in an increasingly familiar situation. Maru, fresh off claiming his eighth Code S title, has already advanced to the Round of 8, and looks poised to win the tournament for a ninth time.
Maru’s position as the undisputed best player in South Korea is far from surprising. Every truly great player leaves behind a legacy and Maru’s will inevitably be tied to his complete dominance of the most prestigious competition in StarCraft II history. Four titles ahead of the closest contender, Maru is the unquestioned king of Code S. But, given how absolute his reign has been, his success begs questions. One of which is, how do we evaluate Maru’s future success in a competition in which he has lapped the field time and again?
While some might quibble about the current level of competition, Code S remains the gold standard when it comes to individual competition. There are events with larger prize pools and stiffer competition, but none can best Code S when it comes to historical significance and name value. Fourteen years ago, in the nascent days of Wings of Liberty, Mvp, NesTea and MC built their reputation on Code S titles. INnoVation, Zest and Rain continued that tradition—defying the odds by winning seasons of Code S where two thirds of the participants were viable championship contenders. Stats and Rogue added their names to the ledgers in Legacy of the Void and, even now, with an inarguably diminished scene, winning Code S secures you an indelible place in StarCraft II history. TY and Dark may have only won the competition twice, but those triumphs rank among the greatest accomplishments of their decorated careers.
Maru earned his first Korean Individual League trophy in 2013, before doubling his trophy haul during Season 1 of SSL two years later. But, it wasn’t until 2018 that he finally captured the Code S title which had eluded him for eight years.
He followed that up by winning the next three seasons, as well—instantly catapulting himself ahead of Mvp (who had held the record for most championships since 2011). Six years removed from his fourth title, Maru is the undisputed master of Code S. He has won eight of the 17 Seasons held from 2018 onwards. With another three second place finishes to his name, Maru has reached the finals of 65% of the seasons held over the past six years. And, while Maru already possessed one of the highest win percentages in Code S history at 61% by the end of 2020, the steady departure of viable contenders has ballooned his win rate to the verge of absurdity.
While Maru’s grasp on Code S has gone largely uncontested since 2018, the retirement of TY and Stats in 2021, as well as Rogue in 2022 have only tightened his grip. Maru’s record in Code S since the start of 2022 is an astounding 82-42 (67%) in games and 34-12 (74%) in matches. His closest rival during this period, Dark, is 62-47 (57%) in games and 25-12 (68%) in matches. As it stands, Maru has won over 350 games in Code S—a mark that exceeds his closest competitor by more than 100.
Overall, Maru has won four of the five seasons of Code S held since Rogue departed for the military. And, while some might point to the absence of four time champion as one of the reasons for Maru’s recent success, one can’t ignore that Maru pulled this trick when he won four seasons in a row back in 2018 and 2019. He shattered numerous records along the way—becoming the first player to win two consecutive seasons of Code S since NesTea did so in 2010, before increasing his trophy haul to four within the span of ten months. Maru matched NesTea in other ways, becoming the first player to sweep the finals of Code S since the IM Zerg mauled InCa in 2011. Maru tied soO’s record for the most consecutive final appearances (four) and broke Mvp’s record of three Code S titles. Season by season Maru climbed the ladder of the greatest players to ever participate in the competition, with each trophy drastically altering his career. His first victory was long overdue for someone of his talent. His second was the start of something special. His third put him level with Mvp and his fourth was his ascension to a tier all his own.
Then again, it doesn’t feel like it did over a half decade ago. Maru’s first four titles were something out of an epic tale. He wasn’t just defeating his peers, he was grappling fate, logic and the weight of history into submission. His fifth title, the G5L, felt similarly profound—the realization of a collective dream a dozen years in the making.
Nowadays, Maru’s wins border on deflating. Maru was never truly threatened in the most recent season of Code S. Even Cure and herO, the opponents against whom Maru faced off in the semifinals and finals respectively, only managed to steal one game between them. After that Maru took the stage and kissed the Code S trophy amid a shower of confetti for the eighth time. Simply put, he has transformed wonderment into inevitability.
I needed something to break up this massive block of text and this fits the bill
Regardless of what some might insist, the majority of the best players in the world still hail from South Korea. These aren’t the “glory days” where 15 of the 16 qualifiers for the 2015 WCS Global Finals were Korean, Code S awarded over 100,000 dollars and weekenders were a feeding ground for Koreans traveling abroad. That era is gone, but Code S is littered with talented players and all time greats. In fact, while the last three “World Championship” quality events (IEM Katowice 2023, 2024 and Gamers8 2023) were won by foreigners, Koreans took up five of the eight quarterfinal spots and, by and large, outperformed their foreign opposition in the group stage. Serral, Reynor and Clem have illustrated they can compete and defeat top tier Korean pros, but the rest of the foreign scene struggles mightily with players like SHIN, ByuN or Classic—all of whom have had limited success in Code S over the past few years.
Code S may not have as many competitors or the depth of talent it once had, but the results of Group B (and the impending Group of Death consisting of Cure, Stats, Dark and Rogue) prove that every victory, even those in the opening round, are hard fought and well deserved. Ten different players have reached the semifinals of Code S dating back to the first season of 2023. Maru and Cure managed to make it on three occasions but, outside of that, only GuMiho and Dark logged more than one appearance—with ByuN, Bunny, Classic, Solar, herO and Stats settling for a single trip.
The honest truth is there isn’t a progamer in Korea capable of reliably defeating Maru at the moment. herO denied Maru the G5L only two years ago, but Maru’s 4-1 victory in the finals of the most recent season of Code S further illustrated the gulf between him and second best. There isn’t a Protoss in Korea who can rival herO, but even he is nothing more than fodder—at least in Code S.
There is always a note of resignation when Maru wins Code S, but even the harshest critic has to admit his brilliance is undeniable. How many times have we watched Maru’s opponents shatter his economy, reset his tank count or get ahead on bases only for them to flail helplessly once Maru starts to work his magic? There is perhaps no better example of the discrepancy between Maru and his peers than Cure. Maru’s former teammate has been the second best Korean Terran since TY retired, but the two of them could never be confused for one another. Maru 5-0 record against Cure in offline Best of 5+ over the past four years is evidence enough. But when you take into account the fact that Maru’s chances of beating Cure in Best of 3 (70%) rises to an even more daunting 78% in a seven game series, it’s clear as day that Cure needs everything to break his way if he wants to win Code S—including dodging Maru.
The same goes for Dark, who Aligulac gives a 37% chance of beating Maru in a Best of 7. This pattern also applies to herO, whose 4-1 defeat in Code S (which happens 15% of the time according to Aligulac) lines up nicely with Maru’s 56% chance of victory. For once, the eye test lines up with the math. Maru looks, feels, and is the favorite in every match he plays.
All of this begs a question—if Maru’s triumphs in Code S feel so insubstantial, how do subsequent victories affect his legacy and his position as one of the greatest of all time? There is an argument to be made that future titles are simply gratuitous. How much does it matter if Maru retires with nine, 10 or 19 Code S titles? He has already long since claimed dominion over the event and, by extension, Korean StarCraft II.
Alternatively, the fact that Maru outpaces his closest competitor (Rogue) by a full four Code S titles while simultaneously retaining his position as the most likely player to win the event going forward means each Championship has an exponential effect on his legacy rather than a linear one. After all, if Maru retired with twelve Code S titles while everyone else was left languishing with four or less, how could that not further Maru’s case? As much as some seek mitigating factors such as the lack of top tier talent, the relative dearth of competitive players compared to the past or the fact that many players’ pursuit of Maru was effectively ended prematurely by military service, Maru is the one winning Code S at a never before imagined rate—not Dark, not Cure and not herO. It’s Maru that continues to add to his unmatched trophy collection with each passing season.
At the end of the day, Code S hasn’t changed all that much. The format has shifted and the prize money has decreased, but navigating the gauntlet that is Code S is as challenging a prospect as any that exists in the game today. The fact that Maru has won the event so often and with such apparent ease is a testament to his greatness and the continued significance of Code S.
It’s tempting to say that the most prestigious event in StarCraft II is no longer about who qualifies or how balanced the game is at the time. That it’s not about who catches fire or who devises the most effective strategy. There are moments where it certainly seems that if Maru executes as he should and avoids some grave mistake along the way, that this Season of Code S is destined to become his for the ninth time. Fortunately, we only have to wait until June 27th to get our answer. Then we can start asking the same questions all over again.
Hey Mizen, you think it would be a nice idea to make an American GOAT list??
Ohh, ley me try that one. For the sake of the list, I'm not considering Select, Polt or Violet.
1. Neeb (obviously) 2. Scarlett (also obviously) 3. Huk (since he won mixed event) 4. Special (Arguably a stronger and more consistent player than Huk but I can't put him higher since he never won any non-American events) 5. Idra (Again weaker player than some behind him, but he won an IEM and I do take into acount his influence outside the game) 6. Kelazhur (Super talented, some marquee performance even if he made a career of losing to Special) 7. Astrea (The first player to really challenge the Scarlett/Neeb grasp on the NA scene and become a top foreigner, even if Future also managed some moderate success) 8. Nina (One of the most stable player for a decade now, altough she's lacking big results, she has managed a few upsets across the years.) 9. Masa (Imo one of the most underrated player in all of SC2 history and a natural talent. He won a lot of big NA lan and of course upset Scarlett at WESG Canada. Also has some good Dreamhack and WCS results, well for a North American. 10. Vibe (He kind of get it by default because he had probably the slightly higher peak out of everyone of else, even if it was very short and during BL-Infestor, but I could be conviced of any of the honorable mentions
On May 12 2024 02:19 Mizenhauer wrote: GOAT Addendum: Maru and the perception of Code S
With Code S fully underway, we find ourselves in an increasingly familiar situation. Maru, fresh off claiming his eighth Code S title, has already advanced to the Round of 8, and looks poised to win the tournament for a ninth time.
Maru’s position as the undisputed best player in South Korea is far from surprising. Every truly great player leaves behind a legacy and Maru’s will inevitably be tied to his complete dominance of the most prestigious competition in StarCraft II history. Four titles ahead of the closest contender, Maru is the unquestioned king of Code S. But, given how absolute his reign has been, his success begs questions. One of which is, how do we evaluate Maru’s future success in a competition in which he has lapped the field time and again?
While some might quibble about the current level of competition, Code S remains the gold standard when it comes to individual competition. There are events with larger prize pools and stiffer competition, but none can best Code S when it comes to historical significance and name value. Fourteen years ago, in the nascent days of Wings of Liberty, Mvp, NesTea and MC built their reputation on Code S titles. INnoVation, Zest and Rain continued that tradition—defying the odds by winning seasons of Code S where two thirds of the participants were viable championship contenders. Stats and Rogue added their names to the ledgers in Legacy of the Void and, even now, with an inarguably diminished scene, winning Code S secures you an indelible place in StarCraft II history. TY and Dark may have only won the competition twice, but those triumphs rank among the greatest accomplishments of their decorated careers.
Maru earned his first Korean Individual League trophy in 2013, before doubling his trophy haul during Season 1 of SSL two years later. But, it wasn’t until 2018 that he finally captured the Code S title which had eluded him for eight years.
He followed that up by winning the next three seasons, as well—instantly catapulting himself ahead of Mvp (who had held the record for most championships since 2011). Six years removed from his fourth title, Maru is the undisputed master of Code S. He has won eight of the 17 Seasons held from 2018 onwards. With another three second place finishes to his name, Maru has reached the finals of 65% of the seasons held over the past six years. And, while Maru already possessed one of the highest win percentages in Code S history at 61% by the end of 2020, the steady departure of viable contenders has ballooned his win rate to the verge of absurdity.
While Maru’s grasp on Code S has gone largely uncontested since 2018, the retirement of TY and Stats in 2021, as well as Rogue in 2022 have only tightened his grip. Maru’s record in Code S since the start of 2022 is an astounding 82-42 (67%) in games and 34-12 (74%) in matches. His closest rival during this period, Dark, is 62-47 (57%) in games and 25-12 (68%) in matches. As it stands, Maru has won over 350 games in Code S—a mark that exceeds his closest competitor by more than 100.
Overall, Maru has won four of the five seasons of Code S held since Rogue departed for the military. And, while some might point to the absence of four time champion as one of the reasons for Maru’s recent success, one can’t ignore that Maru pulled this trick when he won four seasons in a row back in 2018 and 2019. He shattered numerous records along the way—becoming the first player to win two consecutive seasons of Code S since NesTea did so in 2010, before increasing his trophy haul to four within the span of ten months. Maru matched NesTea in other ways, becoming the first player to sweep the finals of Code S since the IM Zerg mauled InCa in 2011. Maru tied soO’s record for the most consecutive final appearances (four) and broke Mvp’s record of three Code S titles. Season by season Maru climbed the ladder of the greatest players to ever participate in the competition, with each trophy drastically altering his career. His first victory was long overdue for someone of his talent. His second was the start of something special. His third put him level with Mvp and his fourth was his ascension to a tier all his own.
Then again, it doesn’t feel like it did over a half decade ago. Maru’s first four titles were something out of an epic tale. He wasn’t just defeating his peers, he was grappling fate, logic and the weight of history into submission. His fifth title, the G5L, felt similarly profound—the realization of a collective dream a dozen years in the making.
Nowadays, Maru’s wins border on deflating. Maru was never truly threatened in the most recent season of Code S. Even Cure and herO, the opponents against whom Maru faced off in the semifinals and finals respectively, only managed to steal one game between them. After that Maru took the stage and kissed the Code S trophy amid a shower of confetti for the eighth time. Simply put, he has transformed wonderment into inevitability.
I needed something to break up this massive block of text and this fits the bill
Regardless of what some might insist, the majority of the best players in the world still hail from South Korea. These aren’t the “glory days” where 15 of the 16 qualifiers for the 2015 WCS Global Finals were Korean, Code S awarded over 100,000 dollars and weekenders were a feeding ground for Koreans traveling abroad. That era is gone, but Code S is littered with talented players and all time greats. In fact, while the last three “World Championship” quality events (IEM Katowice 2023, 2024 and Gamers8 2023) were won by foreigners, Koreans took up five of the eight quarterfinal spots and, by and large, outperformed their foreign opposition in the group stage. Serral, Reynor and Clem have illustrated they can compete and defeat top tier Korean pros, but the rest of the foreign scene struggles mightily with players like SHIN, ByuN or Classic—all of whom have had limited success in Code S over the past few years.
Code S may not have as many competitors or the depth of talent it once had, but the results of Group B (and the impending Group of Death consisting of Cure, Stats, Dark and Rogue) prove that every victory, even those in the opening round, are hard fought and well deserved. Ten different players have reached the semifinals of Code S dating back to the first season of 2023. Maru and Cure managed to make it on three occasions but, outside of that, only GuMiho and Dark logged more than one appearance—with ByuN, Bunny, Classic, Solar, herO and Stats settling for a single trip.
The honest truth is there isn’t a progamer in Korea capable of reliably defeating Maru at the moment. herO denied Maru the G5L only two years ago, but Maru’s 4-1 victory in the finals of the most recent season of Code S further illustrated the gulf between him and second best. There isn’t a Protoss in Korea who can rival herO, but even he is nothing more than fodder—at least in Code S.
There is always a note of resignation when Maru wins Code S, but even the harshest critic has to admit his brilliance is undeniable. How many times have we watched Maru’s opponents shatter his economy, reset his tank count or get ahead on bases only for them to flail helplessly once Maru starts to work his magic? There is perhaps no better example of the discrepancy between Maru and his peers than Cure. Maru’s former teammate has been the second best Korean Terran since TY retired, but the two of them could never be confused for one another. Maru 5-0 record against Cure in offline Best of 5+ over the past four years is evidence enough. But when you take into account the fact that Maru’s chances of beating Cure in Best of 3 (70%) rises to an even more daunting 78% in a seven game series, it’s clear as day that Cure needs everything to break his way if he wants to win Code S—including dodging Maru.
The same goes for Dark, who Aligulac gives a 37% chance of beating Maru in a Best of 7. This pattern also applies to herO, whose 4-1 defeat in Code S (which happens 15% of the time according to Aligulac) lines up nicely with Maru’s 56% chance of victory. For once, the eye test lines up with the math. Maru looks, feels, and is the favorite in every match he plays.
All of this begs a question—if Maru’s triumphs in Code S feel so insubstantial, how do subsequent victories affect his legacy and his position as one of the greatest of all time? There is an argument to be made that future titles are simply gratuitous. How much does it matter if Maru retires with nine, 10 or 19 Code S titles? He has already long since claimed dominion over the event and, by extension, Korean StarCraft II.
Alternatively, the fact that Maru outpaces his closest competitor (Rogue) by a full four Code S titles while simultaneously retaining his position as the most likely player to win the event going forward means each Championship has an exponential effect on his legacy rather than a linear one. After all, if Maru retired with twelve Code S titles while everyone else was left languishing with four or less, how could that not further Maru’s case? As much as some seek mitigating factors such as the lack of top tier talent, the relative dearth of competitive players compared to the past or the fact that many players’ pursuit of Maru was effectively ended prematurely by military service, Maru is the one winning Code S at a never before imagined rate—not Dark, not Cure and not herO. It’s Maru that continues to add to his unmatched trophy collection with each passing season.
At the end of the day, Code S hasn’t changed all that much. The format has shifted and the prize money has decreased, but navigating the gauntlet that is Code S is as challenging a prospect as any that exists in the game today. The fact that Maru has won the event so often and with such apparent ease is a testament to his greatness and the continued significance of Code S.
It’s tempting to say that the most prestigious event in StarCraft II is no longer about who qualifies or how balanced the game is at the time. That it’s not about who catches fire or who devises the most effective strategy. There are moments where it certainly seems that if Maru executes as he should and avoids some grave mistake along the way, that this Season of Code S is destined to become his for the ninth time. Fortunately, we only have to wait until June 27th to get our answer. Then we can start asking the same questions all over again.
Hey Mizen, you think it would be a nice idea to make an American GOAT list??
Ohh, ley me try that one. For the sake of the list, I'm not considering Select, Polt or Violet.
1. Neeb (obviously) 2. Scarlett (also obviously) 3. Huk (since he won mixed event) 4. Special (Arguably a stronger and more consistent player than Huk but I can't put him higher since he never won any non-American events) 5. Idra (Again weaker player than some behind him, but he won an IEM and I do take into acount his influence outside the game) 6. Kelazhur (Super talented, some marquee performance even if he made a career of losing to Special) 7. Astrea (The first player to really challenge the Scarlett/Neeb grasp on the NA scene and become a top foreigner, even if Future also managed some moderate success) 8. Nina (One of the most stable player for a decade now, altough she's lacking big results, she has managed a few upsets across the years.) 9. Masa (Imo one of the most underrated player in all of SC2 history and a natural talent. He won a lot of big NA lan and of course upset Scarlett at WESG Canada. Also has some good Dreamhack and WCS results, well for a North American. 10. Vibe (He kind of get it by default because he had probably the slightly higher peak out of everyone of else, even if it was very short and during BL-Infestor, but I could be conviced of any of the honorable mentions
On June 02 2024 01:37 goldensail wrote: Well, pros are subject to bias just like the rest of us. Case in point, Dallas player cards say, in terms of micro:
On June 02 2024 01:37 goldensail wrote: Well, pros are subject to bias just like the rest of us. Case in point, Dallas player cards say, in terms of micro:
I'm supposed to believe Serral, herO, AND Clem all have better micro than Maru?
Maybe they feel that his micro is currently that. Not that his « peak » career micro has been at that level.
It's just a systemic issue with ratings. The same thing happens if you were to ask someone where they rate a movie on a 1-5 scale. There is no absolute truth as to what constitutes a "5", so it's up to everyone to come up with their own criteria which are always highly subjective. And... that's how we arrive here.
On June 02 2024 01:37 goldensail wrote: Well, pros are subject to bias just like the rest of us. Case in point, Dallas player cards say, in terms of micro:
I'm supposed to believe Serral, herO, AND Clem all have better micro than Maru?
Maybe they feel that his micro is currently that. Not that his « peak » career micro has been at that level.
Is it?
Speed-wise yes Maru is not as fast as when he was young, but there's a different score for that.
For micro, Maru is still as good as anyone else. What has Serral shown in terms of micro to deserve a higher score?
Guess what are the micro scores for Oliveira and Reynor? 83 and 92 - that's a huge gap, while in my view Oliveira is actually pretty good with micro, yet people continue to underestimate him and that's what I call bias.
On June 02 2024 01:37 goldensail wrote: Well, pros are subject to bias just like the rest of us. Case in point, Dallas player cards say, in terms of micro:
I'm supposed to believe Serral, herO, AND Clem all have better micro than Maru?
Maybe they feel that his micro is currently that. Not that his « peak » career micro has been at that level.
Is it?
Speed-wise yes Maru is not as fast as when he was young, but there's a different score for that.
For micro, Maru is still as good as anyone else. What has Serral shown in terms of micro to deserve a higher score?
Guess what are the micro scores for Oliveira and Reynor? 83 and 92 - that's a huge gap, while in my view Oliveira is actually pretty good with micro, yet people continue to underestimate him and that's what I call bias.
They're not biased, they just don't agree with you.
On June 02 2024 01:37 goldensail wrote: Well, pros are subject to bias just like the rest of us. Case in point, Dallas player cards say, in terms of micro:
I'm supposed to believe Serral, herO, AND Clem all have better micro than Maru?
Maybe they feel that his micro is currently that. Not that his « peak » career micro has been at that level.
Is it?
Speed-wise yes Maru is not as fast as when he was young, but there's a different score for that.
For micro, Maru is still as good as anyone else. What has Serral shown in terms of micro to deserve a higher score?
Guess what are the micro scores for Oliveira and Reynor? 83 and 92 - that's a huge gap, while in my view Oliveira is actually pretty good with micro, yet people continue to underestimate him and that's what I call bias.
To be fair, Oliveira's results the past six months have been pretty bad and his score justified. If he was playing like he is now, all his scores would be 90+.
Prior to this I wouldn't even say like he had been at his normal Oliveira level
Well yeah, and like Mizenhauer says, I don't really know what you mean by "biased" regarding Maru's weaker micro score. It's clearly not race-focused because Clem is above him (and has the highest?) It's also not korean-focused because herO is above him. It's just people have a different opinion. If you just mean people are underrating Oliveira, well that's probably been true his whole career until he won Katowice.
On June 02 2024 01:37 goldensail wrote: Well, pros are subject to bias just like the rest of us. Case in point, Dallas player cards say, in terms of micro:
I'm supposed to believe Serral, herO, AND Clem all have better micro than Maru?
Maybe they feel that his micro is currently that. Not that his « peak » career micro has been at that level.
Is it?
Speed-wise yes Maru is not as fast as when he was young, but there's a different score for that.
For micro, Maru is still as good as anyone else. What has Serral shown in terms of micro to deserve a higher score?
Guess what are the micro scores for Oliveira and Reynor? 83 and 92 - that's a huge gap, while in my view Oliveira is actually pretty good with micro, yet people continue to underestimate him and that's what I call bias.
I don't know why Serral is given such a high micro score. I do think around a 90 for Maru is fair. I'd rank Reynor over Serral for micro. And Clem and Byun over Maru for micro.
I think the difference between Oliveira and Reynor's micro was quite evident in their use of spellcasters in game 2 yesterday, with Reynor continuously getting better use of his vipers than Oliveira did of his ghosts, despite Reynor only having a few vipers and Oliveira cranking out dozens of ghosts. Reynor lost the match on decision-making, which was seriously off in games 1 and 4.
On June 02 2024 01:37 goldensail wrote: Well, pros are subject to bias just like the rest of us. Case in point, Dallas player cards say, in terms of micro:
I'm supposed to believe Serral, herO, AND Clem all have better micro than Maru?
Maybe they feel that his micro is currently that. Not that his « peak » career micro has been at that level.
Is it?
Speed-wise yes Maru is not as fast as when he was young, but there's a different score for that.
For micro, Maru is still as good as anyone else. What has Serral shown in terms of micro to deserve a higher score?
Guess what are the micro scores for Oliveira and Reynor? 83 and 92 - that's a huge gap, while in my view Oliveira is actually pretty good with micro, yet people continue to underestimate him and that's what I call bias.
I don't know why Serral is given such a high micro score. I do think around a 90 for Maru is fair. I'd rank Reynor over Serral for micro. And Clem and Byun over Maru for micro.
I think the difference between Oliveira and Reynor's micro was quite evident in their use of spellcasters in game 2 yesterday, with Reynor continuously getting better use of his vipers than Oliveira did of his ghosts, despite Reynor only having a few vipers and Oliveira cranking out dozens of ghosts. Reynor lost the match on decision-making, which was seriously off in games 1 and 4.
Why don't you think Serral should get a great micro score? When have you ever really seen him make a micro mistake (big mine hit, mess up army control, e.g.)? It's the opposite, he has the best Zerg spellcaster control, is ridiculously good at dodging mine or disruptor hits. And generally speaking I don't think any Zerg is better at army positioning/engagements then him, at least for a Zerg.
I don't think there's anything really that Reynor does better with his units over Serral, other than being faster (and that's close and probably not true now).
On June 02 2024 01:37 goldensail wrote: Well, pros are subject to bias just like the rest of us. Case in point, Dallas player cards say, in terms of micro:
I'm supposed to believe Serral, herO, AND Clem all have better micro than Maru?
Maybe they feel that his micro is currently that. Not that his « peak » career micro has been at that level.
Is it?
Speed-wise yes Maru is not as fast as when he was young, but there's a different score for that.
For micro, Maru is still as good as anyone else. What has Serral shown in terms of micro to deserve a higher score?
Guess what are the micro scores for Oliveira and Reynor? 83 and 92 - that's a huge gap, while in my view Oliveira is actually pretty good with micro, yet people continue to underestimate him and that's what I call bias.
I don't know why Serral is given such a high micro score. I do think around a 90 for Maru is fair. I'd rank Reynor over Serral for micro. And Clem and Byun over Maru for micro.
I think the difference between Oliveira and Reynor's micro was quite evident in their use of spellcasters in game 2 yesterday, with Reynor continuously getting better use of his vipers than Oliveira did of his ghosts, despite Reynor only having a few vipers and Oliveira cranking out dozens of ghosts. Reynor lost the match on decision-making, which was seriously off in games 1 and 4.
Why don't you think Serral should get a great micro score? When have you ever really seen him make a micro mistake (big mine hit, mess up army control, e.g.)? It's the opposite, he has the best Zerg spellcaster control, is ridiculously good at dodging mine or disruptor hits. And generally speaking I don't think any Zerg is better at army positioning/engagements then him, at least for a Zerg.
I don't think there's anything really that Reynor does better with his units over Serral, other than being faster (and that's close and probably not true now).
I think there are 2 separate categories, spellcaster/army control and micro. Micro is the tricks and mimics you fo with your units, spellcasting usage and army usage is not considered micro. I agree is a bit fuzzy, but if army control and spellcasting control were assigned to micro, then Maru would have better micro than ByuN and Clem.. by far!.Yet he doesn't because people calls micro to other types of unit control. Under that micro definition, Serral doesnt have great micro, or at least he doesnt show it as much.
On June 02 2024 01:37 goldensail wrote: Well, pros are subject to bias just like the rest of us. Case in point, Dallas player cards say, in terms of micro:
I'm supposed to believe Serral, herO, AND Clem all have better micro than Maru?
Maybe they feel that his micro is currently that. Not that his « peak » career micro has been at that level.
Is it?
Speed-wise yes Maru is not as fast as when he was young, but there's a different score for that.
For micro, Maru is still as good as anyone else. What has Serral shown in terms of micro to deserve a higher score?
Guess what are the micro scores for Oliveira and Reynor? 83 and 92 - that's a huge gap, while in my view Oliveira is actually pretty good with micro, yet people continue to underestimate him and that's what I call bias.
I don't know why Serral is given such a high micro score. I do think around a 90 for Maru is fair. I'd rank Reynor over Serral for micro. And Clem and Byun over Maru for micro.
I think the difference between Oliveira and Reynor's micro was quite evident in their use of spellcasters in game 2 yesterday, with Reynor continuously getting better use of his vipers than Oliveira did of his ghosts, despite Reynor only having a few vipers and Oliveira cranking out dozens of ghosts. Reynor lost the match on decision-making, which was seriously off in games 1 and 4.
His micro is top-tier it’s just the rest of his game is so good one doesn’t perhaps notice it so much. Despite it being his relative weakest matchup he’s still a top-notch ZvZ player and you can’t really be that without damn solid micro, plus he almost always engages well in the other matchups
Personally I think it’s probably fatigue that contributes to wonky ratings anyway.
Give me 5 players to rate across multiple stats and I’ll spend a decent amount of time properly pondering it, accurately as I can.
Gimme like 30 to do and I don’t think I could be arsed. I might go ‘oh no I gave x player 98 in a category and now I’m realising there’s 3-4 players I’d rate higher, but I’ve little room to manouevre now.’
I’m either left redoing some of my baselines and my entire list, or just saying ‘fuck it, it’s just for a bit of fun fluff content anyway’, and I imagine many will go the latter.
On June 02 2024 01:37 goldensail wrote: Well, pros are subject to bias just like the rest of us. Case in point, Dallas player cards say, in terms of micro:
I'm supposed to believe Serral, herO, AND Clem all have better micro than Maru?
Maybe they feel that his micro is currently that. Not that his « peak » career micro has been at that level.
Is it?
Speed-wise yes Maru is not as fast as when he was young, but there's a different score for that.
For micro, Maru is still as good as anyone else. What has Serral shown in terms of micro to deserve a higher score?
Guess what are the micro scores for Oliveira and Reynor? 83 and 92 - that's a huge gap, while in my view Oliveira is actually pretty good with micro, yet people continue to underestimate him and that's what I call bias.
To be fair, Oliveira's results the past six months have been pretty bad and his score justified. If he was playing like he is now, all his scores would be 90+.
Prior to this I wouldn't even say like he had been at his normal Oliveira level
Well yeah, and like Mizenhauer says, I don't really know what you mean by "biased" regarding Maru's weaker micro score. It's clearly not race-focused because Clem is above him (and has the highest?) It's also not korean-focused because herO is above him. It's just people have a different opinion. If you just mean people are underrating Oliveira, well that's probably been true his whole career until he won Katowice.
As opposed to expecting nothing of him for the 9 years he played prior to winning said event.
On June 02 2024 01:37 goldensail wrote: Well, pros are subject to bias just like the rest of us. Case in point, Dallas player cards say, in terms of micro:
I'm supposed to believe Serral, herO, AND Clem all have better micro than Maru?
Maybe they feel that his micro is currently that. Not that his « peak » career micro has been at that level.
Is it?
Speed-wise yes Maru is not as fast as when he was young, but there's a different score for that.
For micro, Maru is still as good as anyone else. What has Serral shown in terms of micro to deserve a higher score?
Guess what are the micro scores for Oliveira and Reynor? 83 and 92 - that's a huge gap, while in my view Oliveira is actually pretty good with micro, yet people continue to underestimate him and that's what I call bias.
I don't know why Serral is given such a high micro score. I do think around a 90 for Maru is fair. I'd rank Reynor over Serral for micro. And Clem and Byun over Maru for micro.
I think the difference between Oliveira and Reynor's micro was quite evident in their use of spellcasters in game 2 yesterday, with Reynor continuously getting better use of his vipers than Oliveira did of his ghosts, despite Reynor only having a few vipers and Oliveira cranking out dozens of ghosts. Reynor lost the match on decision-making, which was seriously off in games 1 and 4.
Why don't you think Serral should get a great micro score? When have you ever really seen him make a micro mistake (big mine hit, mess up army control, e.g.)? It's the opposite, he has the best Zerg spellcaster control, is ridiculously good at dodging mine or disruptor hits. And generally speaking I don't think any Zerg is better at army positioning/engagements then him, at least for a Zerg.
I don't think there's anything really that Reynor does better with his units over Serral, other than being faster (and that's close and probably not true now).
I think there are 2 separate categories, spellcaster/army control and micro. Micro is the tricks and mimics you fo with your units, spellcasting usage and army usage is not considered micro. I agree is a bit fuzzy, but if army control and spellcasting control were assigned to micro, then Maru would have better micro than ByuN and Clem.. by far!.Yet he doesn't because people calls micro to other types of unit control. Under that micro definition, Serral doesnt have great micro, or at least he doesnt show it as much.
On June 02 2024 01:37 goldensail wrote: Well, pros are subject to bias just like the rest of us. Case in point, Dallas player cards say, in terms of micro:
I'm supposed to believe Serral, herO, AND Clem all have better micro than Maru?
Maybe they feel that his micro is currently that. Not that his « peak » career micro has been at that level.
Is it?
Speed-wise yes Maru is not as fast as when he was young, but there's a different score for that.
For micro, Maru is still as good as anyone else. What has Serral shown in terms of micro to deserve a higher score?
Guess what are the micro scores for Oliveira and Reynor? 83 and 92 - that's a huge gap, while in my view Oliveira is actually pretty good with micro, yet people continue to underestimate him and that's what I call bias.
To be fair, Oliveira's results the past six months have been pretty bad and his score justified. If he was playing like he is now, all his scores would be 90+.
Prior to this I wouldn't even say like he had been at his normal Oliveira level
Well yeah, and like Mizenhauer says, I don't really know what you mean by "biased" regarding Maru's weaker micro score. It's clearly not race-focused because Clem is above him (and has the highest?) It's also not korean-focused because herO is above him. It's just people have a different opinion. If you just mean people are underrating Oliveira, well that's probably been true his whole career until he won Katowice.
As opposed to expecting nothing of him for the 9 years he played prior to winning said event.
Well I mean I think it's fair to believe since he's been in the Chinese scene he may not have gotten a clear and constant recognition from the community that he's been the third (and sometimes second) best foreign Terran for probably 7 years now.
But you're right I think it's also fair to say he had been rightfully placed for years at "extremely good Terran who at his very best can put the S-tier players to a good series, but not really win" - and only recently has that last clause changed.
On June 02 2024 01:37 goldensail wrote: Well, pros are subject to bias just like the rest of us. Case in point, Dallas player cards say, in terms of micro:
I'm supposed to believe Serral, herO, AND Clem all have better micro than Maru?
Maybe they feel that his micro is currently that. Not that his « peak » career micro has been at that level.
Is it?
Speed-wise yes Maru is not as fast as when he was young, but there's a different score for that.
For micro, Maru is still as good as anyone else. What has Serral shown in terms of micro to deserve a higher score?
Guess what are the micro scores for Oliveira and Reynor? 83 and 92 - that's a huge gap, while in my view Oliveira is actually pretty good with micro, yet people continue to underestimate him and that's what I call bias.
I don't know why Serral is given such a high micro score. I do think around a 90 for Maru is fair. I'd rank Reynor over Serral for micro. And Clem and Byun over Maru for micro.
I think the difference between Oliveira and Reynor's micro was quite evident in their use of spellcasters in game 2 yesterday, with Reynor continuously getting better use of his vipers than Oliveira did of his ghosts, despite Reynor only having a few vipers and Oliveira cranking out dozens of ghosts. Reynor lost the match on decision-making, which was seriously off in games 1 and 4.
Why don't you think Serral should get a great micro score? When have you ever really seen him make a micro mistake (big mine hit, mess up army control, e.g.)? It's the opposite, he has the best Zerg spellcaster control, is ridiculously good at dodging mine or disruptor hits. And generally speaking I don't think any Zerg is better at army positioning/engagements then him, at least for a Zerg.
I don't think there's anything really that Reynor does better with his units over Serral, other than being faster (and that's close and probably not true now).
I think there are 2 separate categories, spellcaster/army control and micro. Micro is the tricks and mimics you fo with your units, spellcasting usage and army usage is not considered micro. I agree is a bit fuzzy, but if army control and spellcasting control were assigned to micro, then Maru would have better micro than ByuN and Clem.. by far!.Yet he doesn't because people calls micro to other types of unit control. Under that micro definition, Serral doesnt have great micro, or at least he doesnt show it as much.
On June 02 2024 01:37 goldensail wrote: Well, pros are subject to bias just like the rest of us. Case in point, Dallas player cards say, in terms of micro:
I'm supposed to believe Serral, herO, AND Clem all have better micro than Maru?
Maybe they feel that his micro is currently that. Not that his « peak » career micro has been at that level.
Is it?
Speed-wise yes Maru is not as fast as when he was young, but there's a different score for that.
For micro, Maru is still as good as anyone else. What has Serral shown in terms of micro to deserve a higher score?
Guess what are the micro scores for Oliveira and Reynor? 83 and 92 - that's a huge gap, while in my view Oliveira is actually pretty good with micro, yet people continue to underestimate him and that's what I call bias.
To be fair, Oliveira's results the past six months have been pretty bad and his score justified. If he was playing like he is now, all his scores would be 90+.
Prior to this I wouldn't even say like he had been at his normal Oliveira level
Well yeah, and like Mizenhauer says, I don't really know what you mean by "biased" regarding Maru's weaker micro score. It's clearly not race-focused because Clem is above him (and has the highest?) It's also not korean-focused because herO is above him. It's just people have a different opinion. If you just mean people are underrating Oliveira, well that's probably been true his whole career until he won Katowice.
As opposed to expecting nothing of him for the 9 years he played prior to winning said event.
Well I mean I think it's fair to believe since he's been in the Chinese scene he may not have gotten a clear and constant recognition from the community that he's been the third (and sometimes second) best foreign Terran for probably 7 years now.
But you're right I think it's also fair to say he had been rightfully placed for years at "extremely good Terran who at his very best can put the S-tier players to a good series, but not really win" - and only recently has that last clause changed.
Pretty much, if Oliveira had won a bunch of WCS events and then had a great weekend to win a WC then I think perception would be rather different, it’s got little to do with him being a Chinese player.
He’s historically been quite like Heromarine or Showtime, he’ll beat players he’s expected to beat consistently, he’ll show good games against those he’s not and lose more often than not, although take the occasional scalp.
He’s obviously an excellent player but he’s a clear A class player who can have a great tournament rather than a consistent S class one. Which really doesn’t put him in bad company, I’d stick a player like Gumiho or Ragnarok in there and they’re obviously quality players. You don’t have to be a Serral or a Maru to be a great player
On June 02 2024 01:37 goldensail wrote: Well, pros are subject to bias just like the rest of us. Case in point, Dallas player cards say, in terms of micro:
I'm supposed to believe Serral, herO, AND Clem all have better micro than Maru?
Maybe they feel that his micro is currently that. Not that his « peak » career micro has been at that level.
Is it?
Speed-wise yes Maru is not as fast as when he was young, but there's a different score for that.
For micro, Maru is still as good as anyone else. What has Serral shown in terms of micro to deserve a higher score?
Guess what are the micro scores for Oliveira and Reynor? 83 and 92 - that's a huge gap, while in my view Oliveira is actually pretty good with micro, yet people continue to underestimate him and that's what I call bias.
They're not biased, they just don't agree with you.
According to the player cards: Reynor OVR 90 ATK 91 DEF 85 STR 83 SPD 96 MAC 93 MIC 92
OLIVEIRA OVR 82 ATK 85 DEF 78 STR 81 SPED 83 MAC 82 MIC 83
At least in recent years, Oli's speed is actually quite good (think about in G1 how well he dealt with the nydus threats), micro is just fine (e.g. he can stand largely toe-to-toe against any Terran in early skirmishes), macro is also quite decent (observe how quickly he pumps out units). There's no objective way to justify 96/92/93 in these metrics for Reynor and 83/83/82 for him. If there's no bias, how do you explain this discrepancy?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying as a result of one match Oli is overall a better player than Reynor, I'm saying because people consider Oli a weaker player, they rate him much lower than he deserves at least in some of the metrics, and that's bias.
Just to remind everyone what we're debating - I was saying pros' opinion are subject to bias just like the rest of us. The opposite side would be "pros are completely objective, free of bias". Think about which argument makes more sense to you.
These pros have been playing these players for the last year+ in weeklies and big tournaments, it’s just their perception.
Oliveira hasn’t done a huge amount for a while, even in weeklies so why would they rate some theoretical high versus what they’ve been facing week in, week out?
Of course there’s some bias, there always will be.
It’s the pro’s appraisal of where they think Oliveira currently stands, not his theoretical peak
Reynor’s had similar struggles in the past year and is somewhat slumping, often due to bad decisions. The one thing that’s still there regardless is his speed, he’s still probably the outright fastest player out there. Sometimes it works, sometimes (and more often lately) not, but regardless he’s an incredibly fast player. Probably THE fastest in the scene
So giving him a high rating there despite him slumping is perfectly reasonable, the speed is still obviously there just maybe his brain isn’t keeping up
On June 03 2024 00:11 WombaT wrote: These pros have been playing these players for the last year+ in weeklies and big tournaments, it’s just their perception.
Oliveira hasn’t done a huge amount for a while, even in weeklies so why would they rate some theoretical high versus what they’ve been facing week in, week out?
Of course there’s some bias, there always will be.
It’s the pro’s appraisal of where they think Oliveira currently stands, not his theoretical peak
Reynor’s had similar struggles in the past year and is somewhat slumping, often due to bad decisions. The one thing that’s still there regardless is his speed, he’s still probably the outright fastest player out there. Sometimes it works, sometimes (and more often lately) not, but regardless he’s an incredibly fast player. Probably THE fastest in the scene
So giving him a high rating there despite him slumping is perfectly reasonable, the speed is still obviously there just maybe his brain isn’t keeping up
What I'm saying is, what's missing for Oli isn't speed, micro, or macro and it hasn't been for at least a few years (rather it's the strategy/tactics and the ability to adapt based on how a game is going that usually prevent him from reaching the very top of the ladder). That should've been known to fellow pros even before Dallas.
Anyway, "Of course there’s some bias, there always will be." is good enough for me.
On June 03 2024 06:39 imData wrote: I can't understand how Maru can even be considered ahead of Serral after tonight.
Two 4-0 in 3 months, the second one being against Serral in service when Maru is supposed to be a full time player.
This is just shameful for him at this point.
If having Maru's skill is shameful, oh boy, how I wanted that shame for myself!!
It's shameful for a player like Maru who's arguably supposed to be the best player in the world to lose against a player who couldn't train as much as he's supposed to.
Especially in such a one-sided final when he also lost 4-0 just 3 months ago.
On June 03 2024 06:39 imData wrote: I can't understand how Maru can even be considered ahead of Serral after tonight.
Two 4-0 in 3 months, the second one being against Serral in service when Maru is supposed to be a full time player.
This is just shameful for him at this point.
If having Maru's skill is shameful, oh boy, how I wanted that shame for myself!!
It's shameful for a player like Maru who's arguably supposed to be the best player in the world to lose against a player who couldn't train as much as he's supposed to.
Especially in such a one-sided final when he also lost 4-0 just 3 months ago.
Its shameful for Maru?
He isnt supposed to be anything. Ive never heard him boasting to be the GOAT.
I defend Serral as GOAT. But that posture of yours is irrational, and possibly toxic.
On June 03 2024 06:39 imData wrote: I can't understand how Maru can even be considered ahead of Serral after tonight.
Two 4-0 in 3 months, the second one being against Serral in service when Maru is supposed to be a full time player.
This is just shameful for him at this point.
If having Maru's skill is shameful, oh boy, how I wanted that shame for myself!!
It's shameful for a player like Maru who's arguably supposed to be the best player in the world to lose against a player who couldn't train as much as he's supposed to.
Especially in such a one-sided final when he also lost 4-0 just 3 months ago.
Its shameful for Maru?
He isnt supposed to be anything. Ive never heard him boasting to be the GOAT.
I defend Serral as GOAT. But that posture of yours is irrational, and possibly toxic.
Maru is not defining himself as the GOAT. When did I say that? What are you even about?
But some people are clearly convinced he is above Serral on that point and I'd like them to explain themselves that's all.
On June 03 2024 06:39 imData wrote: I can't understand how Maru can even be considered ahead of Serral after tonight.
Two 4-0 in 3 months, the second one being against Serral in service when Maru is supposed to be a full time player.
This is just shameful for him at this point.
If having Maru's skill is shameful, oh boy, how I wanted that shame for myself!!
It's shameful for a player like Maru who's arguably supposed to be the best player in the world to lose against a player who couldn't train as much as he's supposed to.
Especially in such a one-sided final when he also lost 4-0 just 3 months ago.
Its shameful for Maru?
He isnt supposed to be anything. Ive never heard him boasting to be the GOAT.
I defend Serral as GOAT. But that posture of yours is irrational, and possibly toxic.
Maru is not defining himself as the GOAT. When did I say that? What are you even about?
But some people are clearly convinced he is above Serral on that point and I'd like them to explain themselves that's all.
I know you didnt say that.
What im trying to show you is that the only situation that Maru could possibly have any reason to be ashamed for his results is if he was about boasting that.
But he doesnt.
There's absolutely no reasont to have this kinda post: "This is just shameful for him at this point."
You're mad at people who rate Maru above Serral, but pointing your criticism at Maru.
On June 03 2024 06:39 imData wrote: I can't understand how Maru can even be considered ahead of Serral after tonight.
Two 4-0 in 3 months, the second one being against Serral in service when Maru is supposed to be a full time player.
This is just shameful for him at this point.
If having Maru's skill is shameful, oh boy, how I wanted that shame for myself!!
It's shameful for a player like Maru who's arguably supposed to be the best player in the world to lose against a player who couldn't train as much as he's supposed to.
Especially in such a one-sided final when he also lost 4-0 just 3 months ago.
I think you are way out of line with these comments towards Maru. It's absolutely not shameful to lose against someone who just played better. Both played their best and reached the final beating everyone else, where ultimately one guy won and both players beated multiple champions to reach the final. If that is shameful how should average John Doe feel?
On June 03 2024 06:39 imData wrote: I can't understand how Maru can even be considered ahead of Serral after tonight.
Two 4-0 in 3 months, the second one being against Serral in service when Maru is supposed to be a full time player.
This is just shameful for him at this point.
Losing in a finals to the best player in the world is not shameful. And even if I think that evaluation of the player he lost to is painfully obvious at this point, disagreeing is also not shameful.
Maru does not need to be ashamed in any way, shape or form. Dude has a pretty stellar 2024 so far, reaching the Finals of every offline event he attended, winning GSL and StarsWars.
He is just suffering from the combination of Serral being better than him, in an unwordly form right now and he has Marus number. Something Serral does just works against Maru. Serral suffered through that with Reynor especially I think. Tough for Maru that his nemesis happens to be the guy that also rarely gets beaten...or never as of right now
On June 03 2024 09:21 Balnazza wrote: Maru does not need to be ashamed in any way, shape or form. Dude has a pretty stellar 2024 so far, reaching the Finals of every offline event he attended, winning GSL and StarsWars.
He is just suffering from the combination of Serral being better than him, in an unwordly form right now and he has Marus number. Something Serral does just works against Maru. Serral suffered through that with Reynor especially I think. Tough for Maru that his nemesis happens to be the guy that also rarely gets beaten...or never as of right now
If Serral did not exist we'd be calling Maru a bonjwa right now, having likely had won 4 straight premier tournaments.
On June 03 2024 06:39 imData wrote: I can't understand how Maru can even be considered ahead of Serral after tonight.
Two 4-0 in 3 months, the second one being against Serral in service when Maru is supposed to be a full time player.
This is just shameful for him at this point.
If having Maru's skill is shameful, oh boy, how I wanted that shame for myself!!
It's shameful for a player like Maru who's arguably supposed to be the best player in the world to lose against a player who couldn't train as much as he's supposed to.
Especially in such a one-sided final when he also lost 4-0 just 3 months ago.
Funny these kind of whining only comes out when Serral stomps Maru
Did you put the same energy when Maru stomped dark in the same tournament
FYI, Maru is a tier below Serral, so it’s no surprise losing to goat serral
On June 03 2024 06:39 imData wrote: I can't understand how Maru can even be considered ahead of Serral after tonight.
Two 4-0 in 3 months, the second one being against Serral in service when Maru is supposed to be a full time player.
This is just shameful for him at this point.
Probably because the majority of Maru's case is from the last decade whereas Serral's case is his dominance this decade (and the tail end of last).
Like nobody is arguing that Serral isn't better than Maru right now, literally nobody. The discussion is about who is the greatest of all time. And it's down to the individual if Serral's current dominance has more weight than not having been good during SC2's peak competitive scene.
On June 03 2024 06:39 imData wrote: I can't understand how Maru can even be considered ahead of Serral after tonight.
Two 4-0 in 3 months, the second one being against Serral in service when Maru is supposed to be a full time player.
This is just shameful for him at this point.
If having Maru's skill is shameful, oh boy, how I wanted that shame for myself!!
It's shameful for a player like Maru who's arguably supposed to be the best player in the world to lose against a player who couldn't train as much as he's supposed to.
Especially in such a one-sided final when he also lost 4-0 just 3 months ago.
If we follow this logic, then every SC2 pro except Serral should be ashamed of him/herself.
I promised myself I won't argue with idiots but I'll make a special exception for you.
Maru is only claimed to be the GOAT, because he has won many GSLs and it shouldn't be as highly considered after its prize pool dropped. They are on par with what were super tournaments. Meanwhile Serral just won double, in a tournament that has substantially more players in it.
Yes GSLs were prestigious and Maru won many of them, but the last 3 should not be weighted as heavily. I believe the ones with over $100,000 prize pools should be weighted more, since first place gets about 30k. 6 out of his 9 are considerable.
Meanwhile there is IEM which should be the heaviest rated tournament. Serral has won 4 while Maru has had 0. In fact, Maru loses to Serral in the finals for it to make it easier to figure out which player is better.
On June 03 2024 06:39 imData wrote: I can't understand how Maru can even be considered ahead of Serral after tonight.
Two 4-0 in 3 months, the second one being against Serral in service when Maru is supposed to be a full time player.
This is just shameful for him at this point.
If having Maru's skill is shameful, oh boy, how I wanted that shame for myself!!
It's shameful for a player like Maru who's arguably supposed to be the best player in the world to lose against a player who couldn't train as much as he's supposed to.
Especially in such a one-sided final when he also lost 4-0 just 3 months ago.
How is it shameful to lose to someone who played better than you in a particular series? Maru might have won if Oliveira beat Serral. Would that mean that Maru is still the best player in the world? Or we call that bracket luck? But then, if Oliveira beat Serral, would have Serral been the best player in the world?
"Couldn't train as much as he's supposed to" -> I don't see how Serral is "supposed" to train "X" amount. Maybe it's in his contract (and even then you could argue it's just an agreement between 2 parties that he is free to break, as a human being), but usually at this level, the player / their coaches etc. know what is best for them in terms of training. Maybe he can't play much sc2 in the military, but he has time to shadow play? Maybe it was better for him not to think much about starcraft 2 for a few weeks, then come back with a fresh mind, talk to the other players, and come with a plan?
The finals being one-sided is unfortunate for the spectators, but the players don't owe us anything. The show was still great overall, at least from stream (good production casters etc), and it seemed great for the people there too.
So I agree with the kajtarp that these comments are a bit out of line.
On June 03 2024 09:21 Balnazza wrote: Maru does not need to be ashamed in any way, shape or form. Dude has a pretty stellar 2024 so far, reaching the Finals of every offline event he attended, winning GSL and StarsWars.
He is just suffering from the combination of Serral being better than him, in an unwordly form right now and he has Marus number. Something Serral does just works against Maru. Serral suffered through that with Reynor especially I think. Tough for Maru that his nemesis happens to be the guy that also rarely gets beaten...or never as of right now
If Serral did not exist we'd be calling Maru a bonjwa right now, having likely had won 4 straight premier tournaments.
But Serral does exist, and their head to head result is sufficient to let me say that Maru cannot be considered the GOAT
Oliveira though... Maru and Serral are kind of the "two gods" right now, where other players don't seem to be able to beat them. In their head 2 head, Serral > Maru.
But Oliveira managed to defeat Maru in an important finals, and was very close to beating Serral there (albeit not as important). Is he the Leffen of Starcraft 2 (without the villain persona), being the first one to show others that the gods of Starcraft 2 are human too and can be beaten?
On June 03 2024 09:21 Balnazza wrote: Maru does not need to be ashamed in any way, shape or form. Dude has a pretty stellar 2024 so far, reaching the Finals of every offline event he attended, winning GSL and StarsWars.
He is just suffering from the combination of Serral being better than him, in an unwordly form right now and he has Marus number. Something Serral does just works against Maru. Serral suffered through that with Reynor especially I think. Tough for Maru that his nemesis happens to be the guy that also rarely gets beaten...or never as of right now
If Serral did not exist we'd be calling Maru a bonjwa right now, having likely had won 4 straight premier tournaments.
But Serral does exist, and their head to head result is sufficient to let me say that Maru cannot be considered the GOAT
Thank you for your affirmative statement. It's a shame nobody really cares about what you posit. H2h is one of very very many things to be considered in weighing greatness. Not the most important of those things. So Serral beating Maru twice in 2024 in a rather serious beatdown, is really just not that interesting when the argument for Maru's greatness has very little to do with his 2024 performance, which is still by all measures, the second-best player in the world by a decent margin.
On June 03 2024 18:51 Poopi wrote: Oliveira though... Maru and Serral are kind of the "two gods" right now, where other players don't seem to be able to beat them. In their head 2 head, Serral > Maru.
But Oliveira managed to defeat Maru in an important finals, and was very close to beating Serral there (albeit not as important). Is he the Leffen of Starcraft 2 (without the villain persona), being the first one to show others that the gods of Starcraft 2 are human too and can be beaten?
That's an interesting storyline imo
The only edge Oliveira has on Maru is sparring with Serral, it seems.
He knows what works best against the GOAT and, since he has a lot of practice against him, he doesnt flinch like Maru does.
On June 03 2024 18:51 Poopi wrote: Oliveira though... Maru and Serral are kind of the "two gods" right now, where other players don't seem to be able to beat them. In their head 2 head, Serral > Maru.
But Oliveira managed to defeat Maru in an important finals, and was very close to beating Serral there (albeit not as important). Is he the Leffen of Starcraft 2 (without the villain persona), being the first one to show others that the gods of Starcraft 2 are human too and can be beaten?
That's an interesting storyline imo
The only edge Oliveira has on Maru is sparring with Serral, it seems.
He knows what works best against the GOAT and, since he has a lot of practice against him, he doesnt flinch like Maru does.
Styles make fights in a lot of 1v1 sports and Serral has solved Maru. It's at the point where Maru would have to completely overhaul how he plays if he wants to beat Serral. Given the current state of sc2 it is probably impossible,
On June 03 2024 18:51 Poopi wrote: Oliveira though... Maru and Serral are kind of the "two gods" right now, where other players don't seem to be able to beat them. In their head 2 head, Serral > Maru.
But Oliveira managed to defeat Maru in an important finals, and was very close to beating Serral there (albeit not as important). Is he the Leffen of Starcraft 2 (without the villain persona), being the first one to show others that the gods of Starcraft 2 are human too and can be beaten?
That's an interesting storyline imo
The only edge Oliveira has on Maru is sparring with Serral, it seems.
He knows what works best against the GOAT and, since he has a lot of practice against him, he doesnt flinch like Maru does.
Styles make fights in a lot of 1v1 sports and Serral has solved Maru. It's at the point where Maru would have to completely overhaul how he plays if he wants to beat Serral. Given the current state of sc2 it is probably impossible,
Indeed, Rafael Nadal had a game almost tailor-made for Roger Federer, especially on clay.
To combat it Federer would have had to completely change as a player and become left-handed, which just isn’t something you can do at that level of competition
On June 03 2024 06:39 imData wrote: I can't understand how Maru can even be considered ahead of Serral after tonight.
Two 4-0 in 3 months, the second one being against Serral in service when Maru is supposed to be a full time player.
This is just shameful for him at this point.
If having Maru's skill is shameful, oh boy, how I wanted that shame for myself!!
It's shameful for a player like Maru who's arguably supposed to be the best player in the world to lose against a player who couldn't train as much as he's supposed to.
Especially in such a one-sided final when he also lost 4-0 just 3 months ago.
I understand advocating for your favorite player, but I find posts like these really distasteful. I'm sure Maru feels some level of angst that he can't bring the level of play he customarily displays to his series with Serral--you have no idea what goes on inside a player's head. While some posters don't argue in good faith with the GOAT discussions, which leads to hyperbolic posting in response, it baffles me when people attack a player (Maru or Serral) that has given this game and us thousands of hours of entertainment. It's a privilege to witness their insane talent, skill and dedication. Arguing with fans/forum heads is one thing, trying to cast shame on the second greatest or greatest player of all time is dumb.
On June 03 2024 18:51 Poopi wrote: Oliveira though... Maru and Serral are kind of the "two gods" right now, where other players don't seem to be able to beat them. In their head 2 head, Serral > Maru.
But Oliveira managed to defeat Maru in an important finals, and was very close to beating Serral there (albeit not as important). Is he the Leffen of Starcraft 2 (without the villain persona), being the first one to show others that the gods of Starcraft 2 are human too and can be beaten?
That's an interesting storyline imo
The only edge Oliveira has on Maru is sparring with Serral, it seems.
He knows what works best against the GOAT and, since he has a lot of practice against him, he doesnt flinch like Maru does.
He has the international tournament win edge, and a Katowice at that.
On June 03 2024 06:39 imData wrote: I can't understand how Maru can even be considered ahead of Serral after tonight.
Two 4-0 in 3 months, the second one being against Serral in service when Maru is supposed to be a full time player.
This is just shameful for him at this point.
If having Maru's skill is shameful, oh boy, how I wanted that shame for myself!!
It's shameful for a player like Maru who's arguably supposed to be the best player in the world to lose against a player who couldn't train as much as he's supposed to.
Especially in such a one-sided final when he also lost 4-0 just 3 months ago.
I understand advocating for your favorite player, but I find posts like these really distasteful. I'm sure Maru feels some level of angst that he can't bring the level of play he customarily displays to his series with Serral--you have no idea what goes on inside a player's head. While some posters don't argue in good faith with the GOAT discussions, which leads to hyperbolic posting in response, it baffles me when people attack a player (Maru or Serral) that has given this game and us thousands of hours of entertainment. It's a privilege to witness their insane talent, skill and dedication. Arguing with fans/forum heads is one thing, trying to cast shame on the second greatest or greatest player of all time is dumb.
So we also couldn't cast shame on the second greatest player, if he lost to H-to-the-usky-Husky, wusky?
On June 03 2024 06:39 imData wrote: I can't understand how Maru can even be considered ahead of Serral after tonight.
Two 4-0 in 3 months, the second one being against Serral in service when Maru is supposed to be a full time player.
This is just shameful for him at this point.
If having Maru's skill is shameful, oh boy, how I wanted that shame for myself!!
It's shameful for a player like Maru who's arguably supposed to be the best player in the world to lose against a player who couldn't train as much as he's supposed to.
Especially in such a one-sided final when he also lost 4-0 just 3 months ago.
I understand advocating for your favorite player, but I find posts like these really distasteful. I'm sure Maru feels some level of angst that he can't bring the level of play he customarily displays to his series with Serral--you have no idea what goes on inside a player's head. While some posters don't argue in good faith with the GOAT discussions, which leads to hyperbolic posting in response, it baffles me when people attack a player (Maru or Serral) that has given this game and us thousands of hours of entertainment. It's a privilege to witness their insane talent, skill and dedication. Arguing with fans/forum heads is one thing, trying to cast shame on the second greatest or greatest player of all time is dumb.
On July 19 2024 10:09 Incognoto wrote: My apologies for being out of the loop. Is Serral not playing full time? What's he up to?
Feels like the completly wrong thread for that question, but in short: Currently, Serral is fulfilling his military service in Finland. He is however still allowed to compete (there is a special "Athlete Unit" in the Finish Miliatry). So while he can't train freely as much as before and can't compete constantly, he is still able to do the important things, like going to the World Cup.
On July 19 2024 10:09 Incognoto wrote: My apologies for being out of the loop. Is Serral not playing full time? What's he up to?
Feels like the completly wrong thread for that question, but in short: Currently, Serral is fulfilling his military service in Finland. He is however still allowed to compete (there is a special "Athlete Unit" in the Finish Miliatry). So while he can't train freely as much as before and can't compete constantly, he is still able to do the important things, like going to the World Cup.
Yes, but he is still not full time like others. Hard to believe it won't hurt him in the long run.
On July 19 2024 17:28 Ch3rry wrote: This debate could go on and on, but looks like Serral is RoaT (richest) right now.
Maru Approx. Total Winnings:$1,317,292
Serral Approx. Total Winnings:$1,506,631
Has been for 2 years now
You're close! According to the Wayback machine's archive of esportsearnings it looks like Serral passed Rogue for the #1 spot at the tail end of 2020 or the very start of 2021. So ~3.5 years
EPT
![[image loading]](/staff/Mizenhauer/maru_win.jpg)
World Team League/2024/Summer/Statistics).
Mizenhauer for writing history. The players made history, but the historians write History.
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