On May 23 2024 03:56 Poopi wrote: ByuN micro is very good, in the sense that he is able to be super cost efficient. People are mocking his splits but they fail to understand that what matters is being cost efficient with your actions, not splitting for the beauty of it.
ByuN is still a monster in that regard, even though lots of casuals don’t seem to grasp it. They are the same casuals that think Zest’s macro is bad because he floats money, not realizing it’s usually by choice.
ByuN's micro is fine, He's very good at controlling small groups of units (which makes sense given his success with reapers and the 2/1/1). Other than that, he's slightly above average.
He is better with small groups of units compared to large armies indeed. But he axes his play even in TvT around that, and somehow makes it work more often than not
Which player would you use as baseline for « average » though? If you mean someone like HeroMarine, I agree. If you mean random GM terrans, I don’t really agree
When it comes to Code S, ByuN is pretty reliable. He makes the Round of 8 pretty regularly, but he's only made it past that stage once since 2016. It's pretty clear that ByuN reliably beats the players he should, but he's inarguably worse than the Dark, Maru, herO, Cure type players who win/reach the finals. That being said, ByuN is extremely likely to reach the second round and finish in the top half of participants of any given tournaments, so he's certainly not average. Whether you use the word "above average" or "good", it's all describing the same thing.
On May 22 2024 21:48 rwala wrote: It is true that Maru has very good control, which is what makes a lot of these strategies possible. But he never had Byun-level micro skills (there are old interviews of Maru saying he tried so hard to copy Byun’s reaper micro and couldn’t do it).
You are citing a 12 month period (mid 2016-mid 2017) during which ByuN had the undisputed best REAPER control in the world (the unit was nerfed soon after and ByuN became a slightly above average Terran who hasn't won a premier event in eight years).
ByuN could micro one unit (reaper) and snipe slow banelings off creep when doing the 2/1/1. His splits are awful and he falls apart when he has to pay attention to an army and multiple defensive positions (this is a theme going back to 2016).
Take any other period of time, or any other Terran unit and it's clear that Maru's micro is vastly superior, or on par, with anyone to have played SC2. It's not even a discussion.
It’s enough of a discussion that I’m sharing the opinion of other GM-level players and casters that have discussed it (I’m not good enough to judge). But no matter, my argument here does not rest or fall on this point. I agree Maru’s micro is very good and among the best in the game.
On May 12 2024 05:47 Starcloud wrote: It would be more interesting to have an article with wondering the reasons why Maru is so dominate in the first place. Maybe have an interview or two from his rivals even. Now this feels more like an additional explanation for his number one position, that really doesnt actually add up anything to the case.
It's just army control. And it isn't just max army situations, it's every phase of the game, including multiple fronts.
Both He and Serral are the only players to make not only their max armies look untouchable, but also the only ones to navigate seemingly unwinnable situations if/when they ever get behind.
In Maru's case he's much more prone to making build order mistakes and suboptimal strategy decisions. He overcomes this by being able to identify and execute in situations where other players might not be able to do either.
Worth noting I still think Serral is the best overall since his play is much more suffocating as he doesn't make near as mistakes. As for the interviews there have been a handful and they've all pretty much mirrored this thinking.
I’m not sure it’s this simple. “Strategy” in RTS often comes down to pre-game decisions on what builds, tech/army comp, and timing attacks you want to go for, mixed in with some in-game decisions on the same. I actually don’t think there’s anyone better at the strategy component than Maru, other than maybe Rogue, who somehow can soul read his opponents and craft strategies that perfectly counter them.
Perhaps somewhat of a hot take, but Serral only really got good at the “strategy” component of the game in the last couple of years. He had gotten by for so long on near flawless execution that it wasn’t until he was regularly dropping series to Clem and Reynor that he realized he needed to start mixing in cheeses, all-ins, high-risk backstabs, etc. It is a testament to how great Serral is that he was able to adapt so perfectly, but also revealing that he resisted it for so long.
Maru’s execution I don’t think has ever been on Serral’s level. But it’s always been very good. The thing is, I think people confuse Maru’s old cheesy play with being a younger, faster, more aggressive player, but if you listen to Day9 dailies from like over 10 years ago he explains how these were actually strategic plays. A “normal” player would cut their losses after the 3rd medivac full of mines gets shot down, but Maru calculates (almost always correctly) that this particular opponent (e.g. Myungsik or Neeb, to think of a couple games off the top) will be so distracted and fearful of additional mine drops that Maru can safely macro to a winning position. His 2018 proxy play was a similar concept. Yes once every few games he would do game ending damage and this was an important part of the calculus, but it was much more about disrupting the opponent’s play and taking control of the game.
It is true that Maru has very good control, which is what makes a lot of these strategies possible. But he never had Byun-level micro skills (there are old interviews of Maru saying he tried so hard to copy Byun’s reaper micro and couldn’t do it). And yet it is amazing that Maru went from aggro proxy Terran to turtle Terran in such a short period of time. In that time, he also showed how mech could be good against Zerg (and even Protoss!). He added some of the most incredible comebacks to the game’s history off great execution for sure, but more importantly impeccable strategic decision-making and game sense regarding the position he was in and what the perfect response needed to be. Serral almost never makes enough mistakes to end up in these kinds of desperate positions, but when he does, he often just executes his defense perfectly until the other guy throws away their winning position.
The thing is, SC2 is primarily a game about who executes “better” and I don’t think I’ve ever seen a player execute as well as Serral (except maybe Clem on his best days). Mvp, TY, SOS, and Rogue I felt maybe had the best strategic understanding of the game for their races, but Maru I think has maybe surpassed TY in the last few years. This is why I think Maru is so good at GSL. He is just very good at preparing strategies that can work against specific opponents, but then also has that unique ability to pull it back quite often even if his strategy doesn’t pan out. And yet Flash is maybe the only gamer who can reliably overcome an execution skill deficit with his superior strategic understanding of the game (as he demonstrated with his incredible Random run in ASL).
The thing is with these strategic players, your decisions are not always going to work out and then it’s easy to say these were “mistakes”. In some cases, they are just strategic mistakes. For example, Maru should not have played this one base skirmish style of TvT against Oliveira in the Katowice finals on given that he was almost certainly going to have a major edge in the mid and late game. But in general strategies involve calculated risk so they don’t always pan out.
I agree with some of the above with a few comments.
It's not clear to me that Maru "never had Byun-level micro skills" - I've watched many Byun's old reaper micro vids and I didn't find them more impressive than Maru's current level. Byun pioneered it, but Maru became just as good. It's possible that the pre-nerf power of the reapers contributed to the impression that Byun made better of them. For units other than reapers, I believe Maru's micro is better than Byun's e.g. his control of marines in proxy racks plays. In TvT early skirmishes, these two are comparable and Maru perhaps has a slight edge.
Serral is indeed very solid in executing. However I would also say this stability is at least partially due to 1) Zerg play being more forgiving when it comes to the likelihood/impact of mistakes, and 2) sticking to a proven playbook.
When a team of ghosts gets fungaled, or a clumped up ball of marines doesn't split in time and gets blown up by banes, the game is often over for the Terran because it takes too long/too much to replace these units. Miss a nydus at your home base? Your production is gone and again GG. The margin of error is quite small. In contrast for a Zerg - didn't control banes perfectly? That's OK as long as they didn't all get blown up and trade well enough. Didn't control lings during back-stabbing? That's OK they will auto attack and can be replaced quickly. Lost some infestors that got spotted? No problem just make more with your superior economy. I'm simplifying a bit but hopefully you get the idea.
I talked about the playbook in another post so won't repeat it here.
People are getting caught up on the Byun thing, which is not really my main point. I was just throwing out an example of a player that has historically relied a bit more on micro and execution and it’s apropos and amusing that Maru himself said he was jealous that he couldn’t make it work. But you can pick Clem then, or Serral, etc. Maru’s micro is very good and precise for sure, I’m not disputing that but I also tend to listen to players and Reynor and Serral do not want to play against Clem with mines or multi-prong and they do not want to play against Maru in late game. This is probably all you really need to know.
To get people to chill and not feel like I’m dissing Maru, I have my own personal list of favorite Maru micro moments. When he sniped an adept with a reaper dancing around a nexus (against SOS I think it was). When he used basically used war prismesque drop micro with cyclones in medivacs to kill a bunch of TY’s tanks and workers to win his 3rd GSL in 2018. Recently some Zerg (maybe Lambo?) was trying to all-in him and he kept building and canceling a bunker to block the lings from getting in. Once against Clem I think he stole the guys tech lab with a proxied barracks and messed up his build. He once salvaged a lost position against Solar basically with two cyclones that each had like 30+ kills or something. Maru is sick, for sure.
On May 23 2024 08:20 rwala wrote: To get people to chill and not feel like I’m dissing Maru, I have my own personal list of favorite Maru micro moments. When he sniped an adept with a reaper dancing around a nexus (against SOS I think it was). When he used basically used war prismesque drop micro with cyclones in medivacs to kill a bunch of TY’s tanks and workers to win his 3rd GSL in 2018. Recently some Zerg (maybe Lambo?) was trying to all-in him and he kept building and canceling a bunker to block the lings from getting in. Once against Clem I think he stole the guys tech lab with a proxied barracks and messed up his build. He once salvaged a lost position against Solar basically with two cyclones that each had like 30+ kills or something. Maru is sick, for sure.
Maru had incredible micro throughout his career. He started as the heir of MKP, and slowly evolved his game. I am not sure if he had to adapt his style lately because of his shoulder issues, or if he feels like playing fast paced Terran isn’t that good anymore, but what Clem does (albeit impressive), Maru did as well back then. Multiple times he redefined what we thought was possible in that regard.
What is also impressive in his defensive setup, is often his ability to « know » when to expand / defend / which buildings to place in what order, without having other people showing him the way. It’s probably actually him (with the help of Ryung for tests?) who thinks about the sim city / building order to make the different defensive styles work, in precise ways.
It might seem « easy » at first glance, but he was the only player for a long time who really knew how to play that style properly
On May 23 2024 03:56 Poopi wrote: ByuN micro is very good, in the sense that he is able to be super cost efficient. People are mocking his splits but they fail to understand that what matters is being cost efficient with your actions, not splitting for the beauty of it.
ByuN is still a monster in that regard, even though lots of casuals don’t seem to grasp it. They are the same casuals that think Zest’s macro is bad because he floats money, not realizing it’s usually by choice.
ByuN's micro is fine, He's very good at controlling small groups of units (which makes sense given his success with reapers and the 2/1/1). Other than that, he's slightly above average.
He is better with small groups of units compared to large armies indeed. But he axes his play even in TvT around that, and somehow makes it work more often than not
Which player would you use as baseline for « average » though? If you mean someone like HeroMarine, I agree. If you mean random GM terrans, I don’t really agree
When it comes to Code S, ByuN is pretty reliable. He makes the Round of 8 pretty regularly, but he's only made it past that stage once since 2016. It's pretty clear that ByuN reliably beats the players he should, but he's inarguably worse than the Dark, Maru, herO, Cure type players who win/reach the finals. That being said, ByuN is extremely likely to reach the second round and finish in the top half of participants of any given tournaments, so he's certainly not average. Whether you use the word "above average" or "good", it's all describing the same thing.
He’s a strange player that Byun, one of the better years and especially storylines we’ve seen for a relatively fleeting moment, but relatively middle of the pack for much of the rest of his career.
On May 23 2024 15:30 WombaT wrote: He’s a strange player that Byun, one of the better years and especially storylines we’ve seen for a relatively fleeting moment, but relatively middle of the pack for much of the rest of his career.
There's a rather unsavory word that starts with p that describes this phenomena.
On May 23 2024 03:56 Poopi wrote: ByuN micro is very good, in the sense that he is able to be super cost efficient. People are mocking his splits but they fail to understand that what matters is being cost efficient with your actions, not splitting for the beauty of it.
ByuN is still a monster in that regard, even though lots of casuals don’t seem to grasp it. They are the same casuals that think Zest’s macro is bad because he floats money, not realizing it’s usually by choice.
ByuN's micro is fine, He's very good at controlling small groups of units (which makes sense given his success with reapers and the 2/1/1). Other than that, he's slightly above average.
He is better with small groups of units compared to large armies indeed. But he axes his play even in TvT around that, and somehow makes it work more often than not
Which player would you use as baseline for « average » though? If you mean someone like HeroMarine, I agree. If you mean random GM terrans, I don’t really agree
When it comes to Code S, ByuN is pretty reliable. He makes the Round of 8 pretty regularly, but he's only made it past that stage once since 2016. It's pretty clear that ByuN reliably beats the players he should, but he's inarguably worse than the Dark, Maru, herO, Cure type players who win/reach the finals. That being said, ByuN is extremely likely to reach the second round and finish in the top half of participants of any given tournaments, so he's certainly not average. Whether you use the word "above average" or "good", it's all describing the same thing.
He’s a strange player that Byun, one of the better years and especially storylines we’ve seen for a relatively fleeting moment, but relatively middle of the pack for much of the rest of his career.
Still, bloody fun to watch nonetheless!
There were several times where he was destroying Cure and Dark in bo5 until his wrist pain prevented him for finishing the job. ByuN is imo on the same tier as TY in terms of LotV terrans, which is not bad per se. Of course, INno and Maru are above everyone else but being top 4 LotV terran isn't bad
I never thought I would have to defend Maru's micro, it's a bit like defending MJ's fade-away, but here's one of the many games where he showed me what I hadn't seen before (from 05:53):
On May 23 2024 03:56 Poopi wrote: ByuN micro is very good, in the sense that he is able to be super cost efficient. People are mocking his splits but they fail to understand that what matters is being cost efficient with your actions, not splitting for the beauty of it.
ByuN is still a monster in that regard, even though lots of casuals don’t seem to grasp it. They are the same casuals that think Zest’s macro is bad because he floats money, not realizing it’s usually by choice.
ByuN's micro is fine, He's very good at controlling small groups of units (which makes sense given his success with reapers and the 2/1/1). Other than that, he's slightly above average.
He is better with small groups of units compared to large armies indeed. But he axes his play even in TvT around that, and somehow makes it work more often than not
Which player would you use as baseline for « average » though? If you mean someone like HeroMarine, I agree. If you mean random GM terrans, I don’t really agree
When it comes to Code S, ByuN is pretty reliable. He makes the Round of 8 pretty regularly, but he's only made it past that stage once since 2016. It's pretty clear that ByuN reliably beats the players he should, but he's inarguably worse than the Dark, Maru, herO, Cure type players who win/reach the finals. That being said, ByuN is extremely likely to reach the second round and finish in the top half of participants of any given tournaments, so he's certainly not average. Whether you use the word "above average" or "good", it's all describing the same thing.
He’s a strange player that Byun, one of the better years and especially storylines we’ve seen for a relatively fleeting moment, but relatively middle of the pack for much of the rest of his career.
Still, bloody fun to watch nonetheless!
There were several times where he was destroying Cure and Dark in bo5 until his wrist pain prevented him for finishing the job. ByuN is imo on the same tier as TY in terms of LotV terrans, which is not bad per se. Of course, INno and Maru are above everyone else but being top 4 LotV terran isn't bad
I think Cure is better and I'd maybe take Clem over him ever since modern LOTV (2017). I don't think you can account for someone's physical issue (especially one that seemed more stress-based), we only have actual results to judge him and ever since they removed the tankivack and the super-reapers they haven't been that great,
The issue with Byun, outside of the wrist, is his lack of willingness to play high-tech units. Hes a Tank-Bio guy and would stick to that for too long at times. His early and mid game are top tier, but he fell behind in lategame against higher tech army from the opponent.
On May 19 2024 20:21 Nasigil1 wrote: No one is denying Maru's greatness in Korea. Winning more GSL will only help his case against almost everyone else in the history. It's only a problem when you are talking about the comparison to Serral. Because the entire roster of GSL, including Maru himself, has been dominated by Serral on international stage for years. If I want to be mean, I could even say GSL at this point is a group therapy session for players that can't beat Serral.
In theory, a player like Serral shouldn't even exist. A more competitive environment should logically produce better players. Imagine a European country with no NBA players defeats team USA on basketball most of the time they meet on international stage. It's not even small sample size, they play each other dozens of times every year and team USA lost 80% of the time. In this case, what's the point of talking about glorious rich history of NBA itself anymore? You can argue about small rule difference or 3 point line distance all you want, but the skill gap is obvious and hard to deny
It doesn't make sense, but that's what we have now. You can talk about Maru's greatness in GSL all you want, but it doesn't mean much when you keep getting swept by Serral.
I've talked about balance enough that I don't want to repeat myself anymore, but I've gone from being puzzled to being suspicious that there's a conscious effort to keep Zerg advantaged, whatever the motive might be. [...] Hell they can't even resist the urge to increase fungal range when it's more obvious than ever that it's OP!
Wait, are you an actual believer in the reality of the Zerg cabal? Like, do you unironically "suspect" there is an ominous "they" with the inexplicable desire to "keep Zerg advantaged"?
This is hilarious. If so, how do you reconcile it with the fact that Serral is as much of an outlier among Zerg players as he is among the general player basis? No other currently active zerg, not Reynor, not Dark, not Solar, comes even close to Serral in terms of results. The most interesting thing that has happened to Zerg since Serral has commenced his military service is Reynor bombing out of GSL. Also, how do you reconcile it with the fact that the magical infestor, a unit you believe "it's more obvious than ever that it's OP", barely has any out-of-the-ordinary, let alone "overpowered" impact in any game not played by Serral?
Serral being an outlier among Zerg is only a relatively recent thing for the last ~1.5 years. From 2018-2022 there was almost always another Zerg doing as well or in some time frames even better than him
The fact that on each particular occasion there may have been, out of the entirety of Zerg players, almost always another one doing as well or at times better than Serral, does not negate the fact that he was an outlier even during this period. To the contrary, it confirms it, because for the statement to even make sense you must grant the premise that out of all Zerg players, Serral has been at the top most consistently, whereas those close to him varied over time or from instance to instance (or, conversely, displayed greater variation in their own results).
The Serral fans are coming full force when Maru is dominating, I can't say I am surprised but it is still an enjoyable sight to see them defend zerg OPness over the years in order to hail Serral as a god among men
You are right, but it's just happy to see Serral crashes Maru after Maru defeating any other zerg
And it's extremely fun to see Maru fans defending their idols after being crashed by Serral over and over again. Ohh no, zergs are OP. Ohh no, maps are biased. Ohh no, Serral faced Maru when Maru is not at his 100% condition. ... Ohh no, ohh no, ohh no...
On May 21 2024 20:48 tskarzyn wrote: It's hard to call Maru the GOAT when a contemporary has a dominating record against him.
That said, I think two trends are fairly reliable.
Zerg is better in weekend tournaments. The race is built for stability: -Stable, unexploitable standard openings -superior scouting -strongest defensively (due to creep, larvae, scouting advantage, etc.) -Limited need for build variety
GSL on the other hand is built for Terran and Protoss. Each round, you are focusing on 1-2 players at most. Build variety becomes an advantage as you can tune builds to exploit specific opponents. Get past your 2 opponents? Now you have another week+ to prepare new builds for pre-determined opponents.
Throw in the fact that Koreans are playing with severe jet lag in the majority of weekenders, and it's no surprise that Serral has dominated the European scene.
TLDR: Serral is the best Zerg, Maru is the best Terran, but we will never know who the best player is.
I'd add to that that Serrals record against Maru is almost solely based on 2022-2024 as they hardly faced each other before that. I think Maru can still be the Goat despite another player being better than him for 2.5 years out of Marus 14 year career.
Of course it can never be proven but I think Serral got quite lucky he mostly avoided Maru from 2018-2021 as his ZvT back then wasn't on the level as it was in 2022-2024 and he lost multiple important series against the likes of Byun, Cure, Inno, Clem during that time
You made me laugh, "Serral avoided Maru during 2018-2021" lmao so you mean Maru was transferred to a different person right after 2021, or something else, they faced each other more frequently after 2021 and the only offline final between these 2 is IEM katowice this year, and Serral won by a sweep, that's all. From another aspect, "Maru can still be the Goat despite another player being better than him for 2.5 years out of Marus 14 year career" is also nonsense, Maru wasn't the best before 2022, Rogue is def greater than him, and during 2018-2021 he wasn't even clearly better than Serral. Plus his archive record during HOTS is not as great as Innovation or MVP from WOL, how can he become the goat for "14 years career"?
On May 24 2024 01:07 tigera6 wrote: The issue with Byun, outside of the wrist, is his lack of willingness to play high-tech units. Hes a Tank-Bio guy and would stick to that for too long at times. His early and mid game are top tier, but he fell behind in lategame against higher tech army from the opponent.
An amusing article that captures the ByuN experience.
On May 21 2024 20:48 tskarzyn wrote: It's hard to call Maru the GOAT when a contemporary has a dominating record against him.
That said, I think two trends are fairly reliable.
Zerg is better in weekend tournaments. The race is built for stability: -Stable, unexploitable standard openings -superior scouting -strongest defensively (due to creep, larvae, scouting advantage, etc.) -Limited need for build variety
GSL on the other hand is built for Terran and Protoss. Each round, you are focusing on 1-2 players at most. Build variety becomes an advantage as you can tune builds to exploit specific opponents. Get past your 2 opponents? Now you have another week+ to prepare new builds for pre-determined opponents.
Throw in the fact that Koreans are playing with severe jet lag in the majority of weekenders, and it's no surprise that Serral has dominated the European scene.
TLDR: Serral is the best Zerg, Maru is the best Terran, but we will never know who the best player is.
I'd add to that that Serrals record against Maru is almost solely based on 2022-2024 as they hardly faced each other before that. I think Maru can still be the Goat despite another player being better than him for 2.5 years out of Marus 14 year career.
Of course it can never be proven but I think Serral got quite lucky he mostly avoided Maru from 2018-2021 as his ZvT back then wasn't on the level as it was in 2022-2024 and he lost multiple important series against the likes of Byun, Cure, Inno, Clem during that time
You made me laugh, "Serral avoided Maru during 2018-2021" lmao so you mean Maru was transferred to a different person right after 2021, or something else, they faced each other more frequently after 2021 and the only offline final between these 2 is IEM katowice this year, and Serral won by a sweep, that's all. From another aspect, "Maru can still be the Goat despite another player being better than him for 2.5 years out of Marus 14 year career" is also nonsense, Maru wasn't the best before 2022, Rogue is def greater than him, and during 2018-2021 he wasn't even clearly better than Serral. Plus his archive record during HOTS is not as great as Innovation or MVP from WOL, how can he become the goat for "14 years career"?
We're comparing Maru and Serral here so Rogue/Inno etc. being better than him isn't relevant. The Serral fans argument is that Maru can't be the Goat because Serral is better than him. But Serral being clearly better than him was only the case for 2,5 years out of Marus 14 year career.
On May 23 2024 15:30 WombaT wrote: He’s a strange player that Byun, one of the better years and especially storylines we’ve seen for a relatively fleeting moment, but relatively middle of the pack for much of the rest of his career.
There's a rather unsavory word that starts with p that describes this phenomena.
EPT
