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GOAT Addendum: Maru and the perception of Code S - Page 10

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain18050 Posts
May 23 2024 20:33 GMT
#181
On May 24 2024 03:24 Branch.AUT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 23 2024 18:19 Mizenhauer wrote:
On May 23 2024 15:30 WombaT wrote:
He’s a strange player that Byun, one of the better years and especially storylines we’ve seen for a relatively fleeting moment, but relatively middle of the pack for much of the rest of his career.


There's a rather unsavory word that starts with p that describes this phenomena.


Are you calling Byun a ... patchzerg?

Either that, or a protoss
njleslu2024
Profile Joined May 2024
57 Posts
May 23 2024 20:57 GMT
#182
On May 24 2024 02:51 Charoisaur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 24 2024 01:49 njleslu2024 wrote:
On May 21 2024 23:35 Charoisaur wrote:
On May 21 2024 20:48 tskarzyn wrote:
It's hard to call Maru the GOAT when a contemporary has a dominating record against him.

That said, I think two trends are fairly reliable.

Zerg is better in weekend tournaments. The race is built for stability:
-Stable, unexploitable standard openings
-superior scouting
-strongest defensively (due to creep, larvae, scouting advantage, etc.)
-Limited need for build variety

GSL on the other hand is built for Terran and Protoss. Each round, you are focusing on 1-2 players at most. Build variety becomes an advantage as you can tune builds to exploit specific opponents. Get past your 2 opponents? Now you have another week+ to prepare new builds for pre-determined opponents.

Throw in the fact that Koreans are playing with severe jet lag in the majority of weekenders, and it's no surprise that Serral has dominated the European scene.

TLDR: Serral is the best Zerg, Maru is the best Terran, but we will never know who the best player is.

I'd add to that that Serrals record against Maru is almost solely based on 2022-2024 as they hardly faced each other before that. I think Maru can still be the Goat despite another player being better than him for 2.5 years out of Marus 14 year career.

Of course it can never be proven but I think Serral got quite lucky he mostly avoided Maru from 2018-2021 as his ZvT back then wasn't on the level as it was in 2022-2024 and he lost multiple important series against the likes of Byun, Cure, Inno, Clem during that time

You made me laugh, "Serral avoided Maru during 2018-2021" lmao so you mean Maru was transferred to a different person right after 2021, or something else, they faced each other more frequently after 2021 and the only offline final between these 2 is IEM katowice this year, and Serral won by a sweep, that's all.
From another aspect, "Maru can still be the Goat despite another player being better than him for 2.5 years out of Marus 14 year career" is also nonsense, Maru wasn't the best before 2022, Rogue is def greater than him, and during 2018-2021 he wasn't even clearly better than Serral. Plus his archive record during HOTS is not as great as Innovation or MVP from WOL, how can he become the goat for "14 years career"?

We're comparing Maru and Serral here so Rogue/Inno etc. being better than him isn't relevant.
The Serral fans argument is that Maru can't be the Goat because Serral is better than him. But Serral being clearly better than him was only the case for 2,5 years out of Marus 14 year career.


XY has more than 17 years of Starscraft career including BW, serral only became better than XY after 2017 (when serral becomes a full time player), which is only 7 years out of 17 years of his long career. So XY should be ranked higher in list than Serral.
rwala
Profile Joined December 2019
297 Posts
May 24 2024 00:22 GMT
#183
On May 23 2024 22:37 goldensail wrote:
I never thought I would have to defend Maru's micro, it's a bit like defending MJ's fade-away, but here's one of the many games where he showed me what I hadn't seen before (from 05:53):




That one was very cute, but try this:

AlexGano
Profile Joined February 2021
28 Posts
May 24 2024 00:52 GMT
#184
On May 24 2024 05:57 njleslu2024 wrote:
XY has more than 17 years of Starscraft career including BW, serral only became better than XY after 2017 (when serral becomes a full time player), which is only 7 years out of 17 years of his long career. So XY should be ranked higher in list than Serral.


(1/1)?
Glad to hear that as a XY's fan
njleslu2024
Profile Joined May 2024
57 Posts
May 24 2024 02:47 GMT
#185
On May 24 2024 09:52 AlexGano wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 24 2024 05:57 njleslu2024 wrote:
XY has more than 17 years of Starscraft career including BW, serral only became better than XY after 2017 (when serral becomes a full time player), which is only 7 years out of 17 years of his long career. So XY should be ranked higher in list than Serral.


(1/1)?
Glad to hear that as a XY's fan

bro saw you from scboy forum
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15977 Posts
May 24 2024 09:40 GMT
#186
On May 24 2024 05:57 njleslu2024 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 24 2024 02:51 Charoisaur wrote:
On May 24 2024 01:49 njleslu2024 wrote:
On May 21 2024 23:35 Charoisaur wrote:
On May 21 2024 20:48 tskarzyn wrote:
It's hard to call Maru the GOAT when a contemporary has a dominating record against him.

That said, I think two trends are fairly reliable.

Zerg is better in weekend tournaments. The race is built for stability:
-Stable, unexploitable standard openings
-superior scouting
-strongest defensively (due to creep, larvae, scouting advantage, etc.)
-Limited need for build variety

GSL on the other hand is built for Terran and Protoss. Each round, you are focusing on 1-2 players at most. Build variety becomes an advantage as you can tune builds to exploit specific opponents. Get past your 2 opponents? Now you have another week+ to prepare new builds for pre-determined opponents.

Throw in the fact that Koreans are playing with severe jet lag in the majority of weekenders, and it's no surprise that Serral has dominated the European scene.

TLDR: Serral is the best Zerg, Maru is the best Terran, but we will never know who the best player is.

I'd add to that that Serrals record against Maru is almost solely based on 2022-2024 as they hardly faced each other before that. I think Maru can still be the Goat despite another player being better than him for 2.5 years out of Marus 14 year career.

Of course it can never be proven but I think Serral got quite lucky he mostly avoided Maru from 2018-2021 as his ZvT back then wasn't on the level as it was in 2022-2024 and he lost multiple important series against the likes of Byun, Cure, Inno, Clem during that time

You made me laugh, "Serral avoided Maru during 2018-2021" lmao so you mean Maru was transferred to a different person right after 2021, or something else, they faced each other more frequently after 2021 and the only offline final between these 2 is IEM katowice this year, and Serral won by a sweep, that's all.
From another aspect, "Maru can still be the Goat despite another player being better than him for 2.5 years out of Marus 14 year career" is also nonsense, Maru wasn't the best before 2022, Rogue is def greater than him, and during 2018-2021 he wasn't even clearly better than Serral. Plus his archive record during HOTS is not as great as Innovation or MVP from WOL, how can he become the goat for "14 years career"?

We're comparing Maru and Serral here so Rogue/Inno etc. being better than him isn't relevant.
The Serral fans argument is that Maru can't be the Goat because Serral is better than him. But Serral being clearly better than him was only the case for 2,5 years out of Marus 14 year career.


XY has more than 17 years of Starscraft career including BW, serral only became better than XY after 2017 (when serral becomes a full time player), which is only 7 years out of 17 years of his long career. So XY should be ranked higher in list than Serral.

Shouldn't have bothered replying to a troll account. But I'm not the one saying head-to-head is the deciding factor so you don't even have an argument
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France12897 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-05-24 10:09:18
May 24 2024 10:08 GMT
#187
On May 24 2024 09:22 rwala wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 23 2024 22:37 goldensail wrote:
I never thought I would have to defend Maru's micro, it's a bit like defending MJ's fade-away, but here's one of the many games where he showed me what I hadn't seen before (from 05:53):
+ Show Spoiler +
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQtmm-XwkWQ&list=PLqq0Hqu3Ey-c3WArkv5og2MXZicEB9j9L&index=196




That one was very cute, but try this:

+ Show Spoiler +
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-_2kjicW6o


Those are amazing, thanks
Especially for back then, it's pretty good micro.
I remember Maru showcasing insane micro in 2017 as well, but for some reason he didn't manage yet to be successful in LotV. Since I didn't follow much of HotS, I remembered Maru as this young promising terran from Prime, and I wondered why he wasn't as successful as TY/INno/ByuN in LotV after seeing some of his TvZ games. He was displaying crazy micro and multitasking, but somehow wasn't winning the events. (at the time I saw no one else in the world display such micro, it was after ByuN's blizzcon win so probably 2017)

Then in 2018 history had been made, he found a way to just win, things started clicking for him
WriterMaru
goldensail
Profile Joined May 2022
132 Posts
May 24 2024 17:50 GMT
#188
On May 24 2024 19:08 Poopi wrote:

Those are amazing, thanks
Especially for back then, it's pretty good micro.
I remember Maru showcasing insane micro in 2017 as well, but for some reason he didn't manage yet to be successful in LotV. Since I didn't follow much of HotS, I remembered Maru as this young promising terran from Prime, and I wondered why he wasn't as successful as TY/INno/ByuN in LotV after seeing some of his TvZ games. He was displaying crazy micro and multitasking, but somehow wasn't winning the events. (at the time I saw no one else in the world display such micro, it was after ByuN's blizzcon win so probably 2017)

Then in 2018 history had been made, he found a way to just win, things started clicking for him


I went back to watch 2018 GSL S1 again, the RO4 between Maru and Dark was breathtaking and this was Maru with the full package - offense, defense, strategy, tactics, micro, multi-tasking - during a time when there was actually decent balance:


This and the 2020 GSL ST1 Final between Maru and Dark are two of the best TvZs I've seen. Maru's multi-tasking was insane:
swarminfestor
Profile Joined September 2017
Malaysia2449 Posts
May 24 2024 19:54 GMT
#189
On May 25 2024 02:50 goldensail wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 24 2024 19:08 Poopi wrote:

Those are amazing, thanks
Especially for back then, it's pretty good micro.
I remember Maru showcasing insane micro in 2017 as well, but for some reason he didn't manage yet to be successful in LotV. Since I didn't follow much of HotS, I remembered Maru as this young promising terran from Prime, and I wondered why he wasn't as successful as TY/INno/ByuN in LotV after seeing some of his TvZ games. He was displaying crazy micro and multitasking, but somehow wasn't winning the events. (at the time I saw no one else in the world display such micro, it was after ByuN's blizzcon win so probably 2017)

Then in 2018 history had been made, he found a way to just win, things started clicking for him


I went back to watch 2018 GSL S1 again, the RO4 between Maru and Dark was breathtaking and this was Maru with the full package - offense, defense, strategy, tactics, micro, multi-tasking - during a time when there was actually decent balance:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ccz_kY51tEY&list=PL9kbtXdyV0zvm9WFqSZvLNap4S6G6AFqV&index=65

This and the 2020 GSL ST1 Final between Maru and Dark are two of the best TvZs I've seen. Maru's multi-tasking was insane:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBINsLYKkp4&t=8527s


Should include also Maru vs Dark at WESG.
Rogue & Maru fan boy. ^^
goldensail
Profile Joined May 2022
132 Posts
May 27 2024 20:48 GMT
#190
On May 25 2024 04:54 swarminfestor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 25 2024 02:50 goldensail wrote:
On May 24 2024 19:08 Poopi wrote:

Those are amazing, thanks
Especially for back then, it's pretty good micro.
I remember Maru showcasing insane micro in 2017 as well, but for some reason he didn't manage yet to be successful in LotV. Since I didn't follow much of HotS, I remembered Maru as this young promising terran from Prime, and I wondered why he wasn't as successful as TY/INno/ByuN in LotV after seeing some of his TvZ games. He was displaying crazy micro and multitasking, but somehow wasn't winning the events. (at the time I saw no one else in the world display such micro, it was after ByuN's blizzcon win so probably 2017)

Then in 2018 history had been made, he found a way to just win, things started clicking for him


I went back to watch 2018 GSL S1 again, the RO4 between Maru and Dark was breathtaking and this was Maru with the full package - offense, defense, strategy, tactics, micro, multi-tasking - during a time when there was actually decent balance:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ccz_kY51tEY&list=PL9kbtXdyV0zvm9WFqSZvLNap4S6G6AFqV&index=65

This and the 2020 GSL ST1 Final between Maru and Dark are two of the best TvZs I've seen. Maru's multi-tasking was insane:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBINsLYKkp4&t=8527s


Should include also Maru vs Dark at WESG.


While that was an exciting series, from a level-of-play perspective I feel it was not as high as the two above.

Btw as a Maru fan, I find the two World Team League 2022 Winter Code A matches between Onsyde and Invictus (liquipedia.net) a lot of fun. While they were one-sided, they did allow Maru to showcase some very entertaining micro.
Comedy
Profile Joined March 2016
456 Posts
May 28 2024 15:04 GMT
#191
keep the echo chamber rollin'
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France12897 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-05-28 16:03:04
May 28 2024 16:02 GMT
#192
On May 29 2024 00:04 Comedy wrote:
keep the echo chamber rollin'

There was no echo chamber about Serral whatsoever

So, Maru is incredible in many ways, but to me what was the most impressive was his ability to do virtually impossible things, like this game vs Reynor + Show Spoiler +

He could have defended far more easily, but he thought Reynor's attack was over or something, and he would have lost the game if not for his incredible micro / defense. It made the game goes for far longer (albeit Maru was slightly ahead basically the whole game) and it provided insane entertainment in the beginning of the game (especially for those who like flashy action), and also nice and chill entertainment with a calmer macro game later on.

That ability not just to win, but to win looking like a god in the process, is what makes Maru the greatest player imho.
Obviously his resume / results are incredible, but the way he plays is also pure entertainment
WriterMaru
Comedy
Profile Joined March 2016
456 Posts
May 28 2024 16:09 GMT
#193
that game just looks like a throw by reynor
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France12897 Posts
May 28 2024 16:39 GMT
#194
On May 29 2024 01:09 Comedy wrote:
that game just looks like a throw by reynor

I mean aren’t all lost Zerg games kind of throws anyways?
Except in the mirror MU
WriterMaru
goldensail
Profile Joined May 2022
132 Posts
May 28 2024 16:39 GMT
#195
On May 29 2024 00:04 Comedy wrote:
keep the echo chamber rollin'


We're sharing entertaining content, as fans do, under a thread that is about Maru.

You contribute nothing but sarcasm, just because you like a different player.
ZeroByte13
Profile Joined March 2022
768 Posts
May 28 2024 16:53 GMT
#196
I guess it comes with the territory when you root for the second best Starcraft II player of all times.
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France12897 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-05-28 17:30:13
May 28 2024 17:25 GMT
#197
On May 29 2024 01:53 ZeroByte13 wrote:
I guess it comes with the territory when you root for the second best Starcraft II player of all times.

You have Serral as #2 best player of all time?
It's an interesting choice, personally I hesitate between #3 and #4, him or Zest. #1 I have Maru, and #2 (no it's not soO) I have INnoVation. The fact that his brother Gumayusi is also godlike in League of Legends, playing in the GOAT LoL team (hi Boxer, thank you very much for SKT) alongside the LoL GOAT Faker, finished to convince me that talent > everything in esports. Inspiration is a close 2nd, as it drives people to work hard.

Still, I have Serral as the uncontested best zerg player of all time in starcraft 2. Life doesn't hold a candle to Serral in terms of talent.

As for poor INno, he was so absurdly dominant during the early HotS days with broken hellbats, it must have felt boring. The 4-0 by Maru in that 2013 WCS KR / OSL was probably the first time he realized he just encountered the future god of Starcraft 2, similarly to the 5 gods in Super Smash Bros Melee. His WESG victory versus Serral is the time he managed to defeat the zerg god of Starcraft 2.
WriterMaru
ZeroByte13
Profile Joined March 2022
768 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-05-28 17:46:00
May 28 2024 17:43 GMT
#198
On May 29 2024 02:25 Poopi wrote:
You have Serral as #2 best player of all time?
I referenced the Mizenhauer's list here.
But I'd also say Serral is #2 or #3 behind Rogue - probably #2 as Rogue went to military service while Serral kept raking in tourney wins. If Rogue didn't leave - maybe we'd have somewhat different conversation.

Inno at his peak was just terrifying but he fell off a lot after 2018 when he basically stopped practicing.
Zest is the best, and the protoss GOAT for sure, but I'd have him as #5 or #6 maybe.
Mizenhauer
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
United States1886 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-05-28 18:36:26
May 28 2024 18:36 GMT
#199
On May 29 2024 02:43 ZeroByte13 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2024 02:25 Poopi wrote:
You have Serral as #2 best player of all time?
I referenced the Mizenhauer's list here.
But I'd also say Serral is #2 or #3 behind Rogue - probably #2 as Rogue went to military service while Serral kept raking in tourney wins. If Rogue didn't leave - maybe we'd have somewhat different conversation.

Inno at his peak was just terrifying but he fell off a lot after 2018 when he basically stopped practicing.
Zest is the best, and the protoss GOAT for sure, but I'd have him as #5 or #6 maybe.


Some interesting INnoVation and Rogue content on the way (i hope it's interesting to someone other than me).
┗|∵|┓Second Place in LB 28, Third Place in LB 29 and Destined to Be a Kong
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25665 Posts
May 28 2024 19:16 GMT
#200
On May 29 2024 00:04 Comedy wrote:
keep the echo chamber rollin'

Ah yes the echo chamber with constant disagreement and discourse in it, that one.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
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