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goldensail
132 Posts
On May 30 2024 04:44 Mizenhauer wrote: I always appreciate opinions with zero factual basis to them. Well that's why it's qualified with "I don't believe" i.e. presented as opinion as opposed to fact. But if you don't agree, tell me which of these Terran players would Serral have been better than, had he played the race. | ||
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goldensail
132 Posts
On May 30 2024 04:13 Comedy wrote: It's just the most ridiculous thing I've read today. Saying that the best player in the world would be not even in the top5 if he played another race. The bias is just baffling. You actually deserve a ban for making such ridiculous statements but it won't happen. This is basically to a more or lesser extent the problem with every diehard fanboy in here (Charosair, this guy, poopi, the loki guy), they're all terran players and they're letting that cloud their judgement, it's sad to see. As for goldensail, If you honestly think Serral objectively isn't up there in skill with Maru, Inno, Clem and 'likely a few others', nothing you say can be taken serious period. You clearly don't know the game and you respect terran a lot more than anyone else because you play terran and you've convinced yourself it's the hardest race because you can't reach grandmaster. gg. If bait, wp. Edit : post history checks out, it's either die-hard maru fanboying, or balance whine about zerg being an OP a-move race. LOL basically if I don't agree with you then "nothing you say can be taken serious period" and I "deserve a ban". Calm down buddy. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15951 Posts
On May 30 2024 05:43 Mizenhauer wrote: I've personally spoken to pro players who said Serral's mechanics are so good that it doesn't matter what race he plays. The entire reduction of players thing is sorely misunderstood and requires a lot more words than I care to expend. The important thing to ask yourself is this, "would Maru have won less events because Terminator or Trust or Hush or SkyHigh or the dozens of other irrelevant players who don't play anymore. Group A has the first and second best Terran player in the world. Group B has a multiple time world champion and a top 2 Protoss. That's kinda been business as usual for a decade. I don't need you to tell me about Maru's injury because you actually don't know anything about his actual condition. It's clear that Maru has had a number of injuries and, as a result, poor finishes. But, to address your lengthy diatribe, The whole "People plateau, have natural time frames where skill will wane, get injured, lose motivation, age and get slower etc and any of those things can result in a declining skill level even if they are still participating in whatever activity it is." Applies to Serral as well. He's had some lengthy periods where he didn't meet his standard. He has aged. The wear and tear that comes with Sc2 also applies to him. How do you know he's always super motivated the play? All of your stuff is conjecture because you can't quantify how much Maru's injuries impact him. You can't quantify the impact of all but the best Koreans retiring because the b-teamers couldn't afford to keep going. You also can't quantify the effect balance had on any player. Instead you can vaguely insinuate that these things are tree because they seem reasonable enough that most will believe them without examination. Yeah it applies to Serral as well, but he entered the scene way later than any other top player which is a huge advantage because it's easier to keep your motivation high and your body healthy for 5 years than to do it for 10 years. "would Maru have won less events because Terminator or Trust or Hush or SkyHigh or the dozens of other irrelevant players who don't play anymore. Another way to phrase it would be: " would Maru have won less events if Inno, TY, Flash, MMA, TaeJa, Stats, PartinG, Rain, Classic, sOs, herO, Zest, Dear, soO, Life, ByuL would all still be playing and at their peak?" To which the answer is a definitive yes. It's not a coincidence that back then repeat champions were extremely rare and even the best players could get eliminated in the ro32. | ||
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Comedy
456 Posts
On May 30 2024 05:57 goldensail wrote: LOL basically if I don't agree with you then "nothing you say can be taken serious period" and I "deserve a ban". Calm down buddy. It's just a bunch of nonsense. I'd never say something like 'If maru played another race he'd be outside of the top5 for that race, he'd be a lot worse, win way less, etc. It's straight up disrespectful. Then I check your post history and it's all whining about zerg and hardcore fanboying for Maru. You simply can't be objective. | ||
Mizenhauer
United States1856 Posts
On May 30 2024 05:58 Charoisaur wrote: Yeah it applies to Serral as well, but he entered the scene way later than any other top player which is a huge advantage because it's easier to keep your motivation high and your body healthy for 5 years than to do it for 10 years. Another way to phrase it would be: " would Maru have won less events if Inno, TY, Flash, MMA, TaeJa, Stats, PartinG, Rain, Classic, sOs, herO, Zest, Dear, soO, Life, ByuL would all still be playing and at their peak?" To which the answer is a definitive yes. It's not a coincidence that back then repeat champions were extremely rare and even the best players could get eliminated in the ro32. Serral has played the game almost as long as anyone. Forteatenly for him, he had to go to school. The amount of those players who were in their prime at once is a joke. ByuL was only good in 2015 and for few months where mutas where playable in 2017. soO's peak ended in 2017, but he was pretty mediocre in 2015 and 2016. TY didn't reach the finals of a premier event until 2016. PartinG made the finals of 2015 but was way worse the rest of the year and never got close to that. MMA was cooked by 2015 and he was worse than Maru by 2013. Stats didn't make it to the finals of a premier event until 2016. Dear was cooked by 2018 and only really challenged for titles in 2013 and 2015. sOs was pretty miserable in Code S years not other than 2013 and 2017 (he was pretty miserable in the seasons he didn't make the finals in those years). Of course there were more big named players way back in the ol days and Maru was plenty good then as well. | ||
Poopi
France12859 Posts
The main problem is that most people watching sc2 didn’t motivate themselves enough to reach a sufficiently decent level at some point in time, in order to truly appreciate what the players are doing | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25229 Posts
On May 30 2024 05:58 Charoisaur wrote: Yeah it applies to Serral as well, but he entered the scene way later than any other top player which is a huge advantage because it's easier to keep your motivation high and your body healthy for 5 years than to do it for 10 years. Another way to phrase it would be: " would Maru have won less events if Inno, TY, Flash, MMA, TaeJa, Stats, PartinG, Rain, Classic, sOs, herO, Zest, Dear, soO, Life, ByuL would all still be playing and at their peak?" To which the answer is a definitive yes. It's not a coincidence that back then repeat champions were extremely rare and even the best players could get eliminated in the ro32. This goes for Maru too though Entered the scene at a very young age, so had a longer span than almost anyone, uninterrupted by military service. Only became a prolific tournament winner in basically the same era as Serral, likewise Rogue It’s applying a certain lens to the career of one player and not another that can get a tad irritating. Outside of a select few, Serral’s maintained a certain level at this point for years longer than most of the top names of yesteryear. | ||
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Poopi
France12859 Posts
On May 30 2024 06:56 WombaT wrote: This goes for Maru too though Entered the scene at a very young age, so had a longer span than almost anyone, uninterrupted by military service. Only became a prolific tournament winner in basically the same era as Serral, likewise Rogue It’s applying a certain lens to the career of one player and not another that can get a tad irritating. Outside of a select few, Serral’s maintained a certain level at this point for years longer than most of the top names of yesteryear. This is blatantly wrong though? Maru was a key proleague player and also a winner in KIL, as demonstrated in the original thread. Nobody topped 2 KIL in that competitive era. | ||
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lokol4890
114 Posts
On May 30 2024 04:13 Comedy wrote: It's just the most ridiculous thing I've read today. Saying that the best player in the world would be not even in the top5 if he played another race. The bias is just baffling. You actually deserve a ban for making such ridiculous statements but it won't happen. This is basically to a more or lesser extent the problem with every diehard fanboy in here (Charosair, this guy, poopi, the loki guy), they're all terran players and they're letting that cloud their judgement, it's sad to see. As for goldensail, If you honestly think Serral objectively isn't up there in skill with Maru, Inno, Clem and 'likely a few others', nothing you say can be taken serious period. You clearly don't know the game and you respect terran a lot more than anyone else because you play terran and you've convinced yourself it's the hardest race because you can't reach grandmaster. gg. If bait, wp. Edit : post history checks out, it's either die-hard maru fanboying, or balance whine about zerg being an OP a-move race. What's with the weird ad homs? Here, let me try it, see this is the problem with hardcore serral fans. Cannot actually engage on the merits and instead resort to ad homs because they have no idea how to properly argue. It's sad to see. gg. | ||
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Comedy
456 Posts
Serral has 1) Winrates better than anyone, overall, vs non koreans, vs koreans, offline & online each category 2) Winning head to head vs other goat contenders (Maru, Rogue) 3) More titles than anybody. 4) More prizemoney won than anybody What merits we arguing about? Only argument in favor of maru is that he's won code S, a tournament where the best player of the world (serral) didn't participate, and that he was good in proleague when serral was still in highschool, not even being a serious competitor yet, while maru was a full time progamer in the team house infrastructure from a much younger age, with an entire coaching staff and the most competitive environment sc2 has ever seen. Serral ascended to the top completely on his own, in a much worse practice environment, while not going full time till he was 18 years old. Won his first WCS event when he was 2 months shy of 20 years old. Spent the next 6 years farming tournaments, finishing in the top4 more than anyone else, winning more money, and having the best win rates that any player has ever had in the history of the game, and it's not even close. I dunno what merits you need but the only one you have is longevity, the fact maru reached his skill level earlier in life. It's not surprising considering he was a full time progamer from the age of (13,14?) in a korean teamhouse with some of the best players around coming out of the BW Eco system of professional play. But even then, during his years pre 2018, he wasn't even considered the best terran, let alone the best player. Innovation was clearly above him during the 2013-2017 era, and Taeja was early on too. Unfortunately when Maru truly ascended, Serral did too, and Serral has consistently outperformed him ever since, except for in the tournaments he didn't participate (GSL). When he did travel to Korea in 2018 and 2019 for GSL vs the world he took first place each time, on maru's home soil, while maru couldnt even get past weaker players to make it to face serral directly. | ||
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Poopi
France12859 Posts
Oh wait… someone did it. Being the Terran hope for so long is impossible. Oh wait, someone did it. Reinventing himself many times throughout his career is impossible… oh wait, someone did it. Being nigh invincible in a mirror match-up is impossible… oh wait, someone did it. Beating the TvT master TY in a bo7 finals is impossible, oh wait someone managed to do it. Beating Dear when he was destroying all the other terrans with a streak like 20-0 in the new patch is impossible… oh wait, someone did it. I mean I could go on and on, there are many arguments in favor of Maru. But you are probably one of the newest generation from Reddit / YouTube / TikTok StarCraft super biased by the foreign casters. Here is an information: I spoke to Elazer during nation wars and he was agreeing with me about how Oliveira was capable of playing as well as Maru / Clem when he was hot, just a few tiny mistakes to fix (he lost to SKillous during NW). That year, Oliveira won Katowice. How did Elazer know the potential of Oliveira? Because he practiced with him. But even though I didn’t practice with Oliveira, watching several of his series, I was able to see the flashes of brilliance and how only minor details needed to be fixed. He was inspired by Oliveira the MMA fighter and that name change was a blessing, because he truly fought hard at this Katowice. Did Maru choke? Yes and no. It could have ended differently, but it’s not necessarily just because of Maru. Players know other players. Clem usually says he copies Cure because you can’t copy Maru, since Maru is Maru. You know who else has a similar aura? Faker in LoL, Flash in BW. Serral is also viewed as a god by other players sometimes, but most know that he is mortal too and can be defeated. Is Serral the goat? He might be Is Maru the goat? He might be Is Rogue the goat? He was for a while, now it remains to be seen Was INno the goat? He could have been at some point, but now it’s probably over Is Zest the goat? Probably not, but it might be because of his race (and its volatility in long series) What is my personal goat? I have all three: Rogue, Serral and Maru. My heart goes to Rogue, but head Maru and Serral. | ||
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Comedy
456 Posts
On May 30 2024 08:16 Poopi wrote: Winning four code S in a row is just impossible. Oh wait… someone did it. Being the Terran hope for so long is impossible. Oh wait, someone did it. Reinventing himself many times throughout his career is impossible… oh wait, someone did it. Being nigh invincible in a mirror match-up is impossible… oh wait, someone did it. Beating the TvT master TY in a bo7 finals is impossible, oh wait someone managed to do it. Beating Dear when he was destroying all the other terrans with a streak like 20-0 in the new patch is impossible… oh wait, someone did it. Maru is amazing and being the 2nd best player throughout the history of this game is an incredible accomplishment. It's just that in direct comparison with Serral he falls short on every metric except the longevity one, it is what it is. The best player in the world didn't participate in those GSLs maru won unfortunately, it'd be kinda like someone farming BW leagues while Flash competes elsewhere, it's still really good, but it just means less when the best player in the world isn't participating. Then when they enter the same tournament, Serral out performs consistently. Just making those GSLs not much more than a showing of incredible consistency. But if you can't beat Serral, then you're just the best of the rest. | ||
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Poopi
France12859 Posts
On May 30 2024 08:26 Comedy wrote: Maru is amazing and being the 2nd best player throughout the history of this game is an incredible accomplishment. It's just that in direct comparison with Serral he falls short on every metric except the longevity one, it is what it is. The best player in the world didn't participate in those GSLs maru won unfortunately, it'd be kinda like someone farming BW leagues while Flash competes elsewhere, it's still really good, but it just means less when the best player in the world isn't participating. Then when they enter the same tournament, Serral out performs consistently. Just making those GSLs not much more than a showing of incredible consistency. But if you can't beat Serral, then you're just the best of the rest. Greatness is not just about metrics. I mean I really think you are either trolling, or don’t understand the meaning of greatness | ||
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JJH777
United States4406 Posts
On May 30 2024 08:26 Comedy wrote: The best player in the world didn't participate in those GSLs maru won unfortunately, it'd be kinda like someone farming BW leagues while Flash competes elsewhere, it's still really good, but it just means less when the best player in the world isn't participating. You can make a similar argument against many of Serral's trophies though. They may not have been missing the absolute best (though I would argue some were as Serral has not been the continuous best for 6 years straight) but most of them were missing as many as half the top 30 players in the world. I would argue that missing half the top 30 is worse than missing the individual best because in most tournaments Serral participates in you don't actually have to beat him to win the event. As good as he is he still doesn't win anywhere half of the events he participated in. When 10+ players are missing though you would have definitely had to play one of the missing players if they were present. It's more likely to have an impact on the bracket. There's a very high chance Maru could have won most of his GSLs without playing Serral even if Serral went to KR a bunch of times. The unfortunate reality of the SC2 scene is that all the top pros only participate in the same event once a year (Kato). Pretty much every other event is missing a bunch of top competitors. | ||
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Antithesis
Germany1178 Posts
On May 30 2024 08:27 Poopi wrote: Greatness is not just about metrics. I mean I really think you are either trolling, or don’t understand the meaning of greatness Making your case dependent, not upon metrics, but upon some elusive notion of greatness is tantamount to an admission of defeat in argument. It's still more implausible to hold that there's an uncontroversial interpretation of greatness according to which your favorite player fares better than everyone else. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15951 Posts
On May 30 2024 07:41 Comedy wrote: What merits do you need? Serral has 1) Winrates better than anyone, overall, vs non koreans, vs koreans, offline & online each category 2) Winning head to head vs other goat contenders (Maru, Rogue) 3) More titles than anybody. 4) More prizemoney won than anybody Not very convincing arguments imo. 1. Yes, this is the biggest argument in favor of Serral, however it's noteworthy that he started peaking when most of the other Goat contenders already started to decline and you can see that in his records against players like Inno or Dark who used to give him lots of troubles, and Serral only gained the upperhand in later years when the decline became more and more apparent. 2. Not even true, he's dead-even with Rogue. And head-to-head is not that relevant anyway because the record depends heavily on how often the players ended up facing each other in specific time periods. The record vs Maru is based almost entirely on 2022-2024 which was the period where Serral was most favored against Maru so the circumstances for the alltime h2h record were in favor of Serral. And I think another player being better than Maru for 2.5 years out of Marus 14 year career doesn't make him ineligible for being the Goat. But yeah, this is also a somewhat legit argument but not a really strong one. 3.Titles are irrelevant without considering the context of titles, and I assume what you mean is just "liquipedia defined premier tournaments" which is a completely arbitrary categorization. If you'd mean titles in general I'd assume someone like Clem would have the most. If you'd consider just the big offline events than Rogue and Maru are ahead of Serral. 4. Completely irrelevant considering the players have unequal opportunities to earn money depending on the country they are born in. | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
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Antithesis
Germany1178 Posts
On May 30 2024 08:58 Charoisaur wrote: And I think another player being better than Maru for 2.5 years out of Marus 14 year career doesn't make him ineligible for being the Goat. You have repeated this fallacious statement several times at this point. First of all, it's debatable whether it's really just 2.5 years that Serral has better than Maru. But for the sake of argument, let's accept your premise. Even then, though, Serral and Maru would be roughly at the same level, at worst, ever since Serral became a fulltime pro, factoring in all the discrepancies of their respective trajectories and tournament participations. In any case, it would be patently false to say that Maru has been clearly and consistently better than Serral from 2018 to 2022 (hell, this period began with Serral winning a WC title). So being outperformed for 2.5 years by and, on balance, being roughly level for another 3.5 years to one's greatest contender is a non-negligible challenge to the GoaT title. Second of all, your statement is misleadingly worded. You make it sound as if Maru had been considered the best player in the world continuously for 11.5 years except for the last 2.5 years, where Serral has overtaken him, which is just blatantly wrong. You know very well that for most of the time before 2018, Maru has not been considered the best player in the world except for relatively limited periods. Prior to 2018, it's mostly other players who were regarded as the best of their time – MVP, Inno, and so on. So, no, it's not just "another player being better than Maru for 2.5 years out of Marus 14 year career". | ||
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Zealot Lord
Hong Kong747 Posts
The only thing that can be reasonably deduced and conclude is that Serral is the greatest Zerg player of all time, and Maru is the greatest terran player of all time but nothing more. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25229 Posts
On May 30 2024 09:29 Antithesis wrote: You have repeated this fallacious statement several times at this point. First of all, it's debatable whether it's really just 2.5 years that Serral has better than Maru. But for the sake of argument, let's accept your premise. Even then, though, Serral and Maru would be roughly at the same level, at worst, ever since Serral became a fulltime pro, factoring in all the discrepancies of their respective trajectories and tournament participations. In any case, it would be patently false to say that Maru has been clearly and consistently better than Serral from 2018 to 2022 (hell, this period began with Serral winning a WC title). So being outperformed for 2.5 years by and, on balance, being roughly level for another 3.5 years to one's greatest contender is a non-negligible challenge to the GoaT title. Second of all, your statement is misleadingly worded. You make it sound as if Maru had been considered the best player in the world continuously for 11.5 years except for the last 2.5 years, where Serral has overtaken him, which is just blatantly wrong. You know very well that for most of the time before 2018, Maru has not been considered the best player in the world except for relatively limited periods. Prior to 2018, it's mostly other players who were regarded as the best of their time – MVP, Inno, and so on. So, no, it's not just "another player being better than Maru for 2.5 years out of Marus 14 year career". I mean even if we’re lowballing it, even 2.5 years is a decent chunk of time. It took about that long, maybe a little longer for Maru to develop from young programing prodigy to a tournament winning calibre player, it’s not massively far off Mvp’s real peak years of dominance, or longer than other players could maintain a levdl of championship contention. It’s not even an insignificant period within the particular SC2 context I mean by all means have preferences but there’s just some serious myopia from folks putting forward the various merits of their dudes. I think there’s quite an other side of the coin aspect when trying to compare folks across eras and contexts, but folks are only looking at one and hyper-focusing. Obvious ones like Serral not playing GSL, a legit gap in his resume. But on the flip side increasingly his absence is also detrimental to the prestige of that tournament. Maru has longevity on his side, but on the flip side there’s a last man standing element to his claim almost (exaggerating of course). Serral’s not playing at the time when the game is at its most competitive or in things like Proleague, but equally he ascended to his current level without the benefit of playing full time living/working with other elite progamers. People will weigh these kind of things differently which is fair enough, we value different things but one does at least have to look at the other side of the scales too sometimes. | ||
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