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Maru has a legacy of earning titles like the Terran hope and the Fourth Race.
We only know Serral for winning. Serral no special storyline. He isn't the lone beacon of hope when all other Zergs are getting destroyed in RO16 or before. He isn't the one defying expectations and casters exclaiming "When he's behind, he's ahead!". Serral plays Zerg very, very good; the best rightnow. And that's it. There's no great legacy.
For someone who has earned this much money from SC2, there's no reason why Serral can't spend a season or two of GSL in Korea without any financial constraints - just purely for the love of the game that has given him so much. Korea is historically considered the Mecca of Starcraft, and it still remains so for a large number of fans.
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Northern Ireland25538 Posts
I’m not sure within the StarCraft context how much bigger a narrative you can get as the first foreigner to break a what, 16 year dominance across two games of Korean players
I mean I guess it’s somewhat normalised now that foreigners can more routinely go toe-to-toe, but that was pretty huge at the time.
Maru’s performance when Terran was struggling is absolutely compelling too of course but the whole ‘Fourth Race’ thing is a bit exaggerated IMO and a kinda misappropriation of Moon’s nickname where it was more apt.
I mean the (general, if not universal) considered GOATs prior to this era were both Terran players, Miz stuck another Terran in his top 10 and I think Taeja’s got a decent claim to dwell in and around the top 15
It’s hardly like he’s been carrying a race that has had such consistent success for a big chunk of SC2’s history.
Less competitive era that it was, herO more recently and Trap for a period before him were probably doing just as much heavy lifting for their respective races
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On May 30 2024 13:58 Pentarp wrote:
We only know Serral for winning. Serral no special storyline. He isn't the lone beacon of hope when all other Zergs are getting destroyed in RO16 or before. He isn't the one defying expectations and casters exclaiming "When he's behind, he's ahead!". Serral plays Zerg very, very good; the best rightnow. And that's it. There's no great legacy. I wasn't going to weigh in on this, but this is an incredibly weird thing to say.
Serral was the first non-korean player to win a world championship. His 2018 world championship win is arguably the most cataclysmic, paradigm shifting event in all of SC2, knocking down the giant wall of two decades of Korean dominance across both Starcrafts. He was the ONE different flag in a sea of Korean flags. Right up there in importance with the arrival of KeSPA, the end of pro-league, Maru's 4th consecutive GSL and G5L, Life's ban, and I'd say bigger than Neeb winning the Kespa cup in 2016.
Goat or not, that's up to interpretation sure, but saying that Serral has no great legacy is a top 10 dumbest take I've ever seen.
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On May 30 2024 14:22 WombaT wrote:
Maru’s performance when Terran was struggling is absolutely compelling too of course but the whole ‘Fourth Race’ thing is a bit exaggerated IMO and a kinda misappropriation of Moon’s nickname where it was more apt.
I mean the (general, if not universal) considered GOATs prior to this era were both Terran players
Maru making a GSL top 4 when he was the only Terran in the ro16 seems like a fourth race to me. Plus winning 2 premiers as the only Terran in the top 8.
The other part is true but very misleading because the only reason that was true is because Life match fixed. If he didn't do that he would have 100% been the goat by 2017. He was already almost even with Mvp and that list was made before his second Blizzcon finals. There's also soO whose only issue was being a kong. You switch even 30% of those silvers to golds and he would have had a more impressive career than any Terran besides Maru.
It's also worth noting Zerg had already won the most money before Rogue/Serral started winning a bunch. It was by a slimmer margin than it is now but they were already the most successful race on a monetary basis.
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Northern Ireland25538 Posts
On May 30 2024 14:41 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2024 14:22 WombaT wrote:
Maru’s performance when Terran was struggling is absolutely compelling too of course but the whole ‘Fourth Race’ thing is a bit exaggerated IMO and a kinda misappropriation of Moon’s nickname where it was more apt.
I mean the (general, if not universal) considered GOATs prior to this era were both Terran players Maru making a GSL top 4 when he was the only Terran in the ro16 seems like a fourth race to me. Plus winning 2 premiers as the only Terran in the top 8. The other part is true but very misleading because the only reason that was true is because Life match fixed. If he didn't do that he would have 100% been the goat by 2017. He was already almost even with Mvp and that list was made before his second Blizzcon finals. There's also soO whose only issue was being a kong. You switch even 30% of those silvers to golds and he would have had a more impressive career than any Terran besides Maru.
And if my aunty had balls she’d be my uncle as we say over here.
For me Maru doing so well when his brethren were universally failing is absolutely praiseworthy, but also something of a curiosity at the same time.
Until the gradually declining depth at the business end of the scene he didn’t really transfer his outperformance of his racial peers in the bad times to a similar degree in the good times.
I mean if he had we’d be into Wayne Gretzky territory where there is no GOAT debate
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On May 30 2024 10:07 Zealot Lord wrote:
The SC2 goat debate between Maru and Serral is nonsensical to be honest - they may be playing the same game but everyone knows the races aren't equally evenly balanced.
The only thing that can be reasonably deduced and conclude is that Serral is the greatest Zerg player of all time, and Maru is the greatest terran player of all time but nothing more.
That's actually a pretty good take.
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In 2018, serral's breakout year where he won all wcs events, GSL vs the world, and the world championship, In Korea not a single zerg made it to a final of GSL, or any of the GSL super tournaments.
He was the first zerg to demonstrate the power of perfectly controlled zerg late game, and that it can even win vs protoss air armada, no other zerg was able to do it in 2018.
And yes, like the other guy said, he broke the mold of korean dominance, while practicing from his home in Finland on an inferior server, and became better than all his korean opponents.
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France12886 Posts
On May 30 2024 08:56 Antithesis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2024 08:27 Poopi wrote:On May 30 2024 08:26 Comedy wrote:On May 30 2024 08:16 Poopi wrote:
Winning four code S in a row is just impossible.
Oh wait… someone did it.
Being the Terran hope for so long is impossible. Oh wait, someone did it.
Reinventing himself many times throughout his career is impossible… oh wait, someone did it.
Being nigh invincible in a mirror match-up is impossible… oh wait, someone did it.
Beating the TvT master TY in a bo7 finals is impossible, oh wait someone managed to do it.
Beating Dear when he was destroying all the other terrans with a streak like 20-0 in the new patch is impossible… oh wait, someone did it. Maru is amazing and being the 2nd best player throughout the history of this game is an incredible accomplishment. It's just that in direct comparison with Serral he falls short on every metric except the longevity one, it is what it is. The best player in the world didn't participate in those GSLs maru won unfortunately, it'd be kinda like someone farming BW leagues while Flash competes elsewhere, it's still really good, but it just means less when the best player in the world isn't participating. Then when they enter the same tournament, Serral out performs consistently. Just making those GSLs not much more than a showing of incredible consistency. But if you can't beat Serral, then you're just the best of the rest. Greatness is not just about metrics. I mean I really think you are either trolling, or don’t understand the meaning of greatness Making your case dependent, not upon metrics, but upon some elusive notion of greatness is tantamount to an admission of defeat in argument. It's still more implausible to hold that there's an uncontroversial interpretation of greatness according to which your favorite player fares better than everyone else.
I don’t have any case though
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On May 30 2024 15:49 Comedy wrote:
In 2018, serral's breakout year where he won all wcs events, GSL vs the world, and the world championship, In Korea not a single zerg made it to a final of GSL, or any of the GSL super tournaments.
He was the first zerg to demonstrate the power of perfectly controlled zerg late game, and that it can even win vs protoss air armada, no other zerg was able to do it in 2018.
And yes, like the other guy said, he broke the mold of korean dominance, while practicing from his home in Finland on an inferior server, and became better than all his korean opponents.
That's not true, Rogue was the first one to show the prowess of perfectly controlled Zerg lategame in 2017 to the point where Tastosis famously called him "the best lategame player of all time".
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On May 30 2024 16:25 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2024 15:49 Comedy wrote:
In 2018, serral's breakout year where he won all wcs events, GSL vs the world, and the world championship, In Korea not a single zerg made it to a final of GSL, or any of the GSL super tournaments.
He was the first zerg to demonstrate the power of perfectly controlled zerg late game, and that it can even win vs protoss air armada, no other zerg was able to do it in 2018.
And yes, like the other guy said, he broke the mold of korean dominance, while practicing from his home in Finland on an inferior server, and became better than all his korean opponents. That's not true, Rogue was the first one to show the prowess of perfectly controlled Zerg lategame in 2017 to the point where Tastosis famously called him "the best lategame player of all time".
Actually rogue famously lost to Neeb in late game zvp @ blizzcon 2017 in that 1+ hour game they had. He wasn't close to Serral lategame that he showed the following year.
Also lol @ quoting tastosis.
Btw, end of 2017 there was a balance patch, when rogue was playing late game he was still able to cast fungal growth while burrowed. And infested terrans had 9 range instead of 7. Alongside many other small changes like infested terrans automatically targetting air and so on. Lategame zvp in 2017 was actually a lot different than it was in 2018.
It's always been my personal opinion that they should have kept playing on the 2018 patch a lot longer. It was actually the most balanced looking patch that I have seen. The following year they truly fucked it up with the ridiculous nydus worm spam gameplay.
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On May 30 2024 16:35 Comedy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2024 16:25 Charoisaur wrote:On May 30 2024 15:49 Comedy wrote:
In 2018, serral's breakout year where he won all wcs events, GSL vs the world, and the world championship, In Korea not a single zerg made it to a final of GSL, or any of the GSL super tournaments.
He was the first zerg to demonstrate the power of perfectly controlled zerg late game, and that it can even win vs protoss air armada, no other zerg was able to do it in 2018.
And yes, like the other guy said, he broke the mold of korean dominance, while practicing from his home in Finland on an inferior server, and became better than all his korean opponents. That's not true, Rogue was the first one to show the prowess of perfectly controlled Zerg lategame in 2017 to the point where Tastosis famously called him "the best lategame player of all time". Actually rogue famously lost to Neeb in late game zvp @ blizzcon 2017 in that 1+ hour game they had. He wasn't close to Serral lategame that he showed the following year. Also lol @ quoting tastosis. Btw, end of 2017 there was a balance patch, when rogue was playing late game he was still able to cast fungal growth while burrowed. And infested terrans had 9 range instead of 7. Alongside many other small changes like infested terrans automatically targetting air and so on. Lategame zvp in 2017 was actually a lot different than it was in 2018. It's always been my personal opinion that they should have kept playing on the 2018 patch a lot longer. It was actually the most balanced looking patch that I have seen. The following year they truly fucked it up with the ridiculous nydus worm spam gameplay.
you said
and that it can even win vs protoss air armada, no other zerg was able to do it in 2018.
which is just false. Rogue showed it many times, 1 loss doesn't invalidate that. Ofc Serral was even better in lategame but Rogue was the first one to show the way.
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Guys, I'm pretty sure at this point, most things that can be said about Maru vs. Serral being the #1 GOAT have been said. And let's not kid ourselves - basically no one is convincing anyone else.
Instead of endless bickering (in which I have taken part), how about we return to normalcy where in a thread about Maru, we talk about Maru, and in a thread about Serral, we stay on Serral, without being ridiculed as "echo chambers", and thereby try to be generally positive/constructive?
Basically a truce, at least until the next tournament 
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On May 30 2024 20:19 goldensail wrote:Guys, I'm pretty sure at this point, most things that can be said about Maru vs. Serral being the #1 GOAT have been said. And let's not kid ourselves - basically no one is convincing anyone else. Instead of endless bickering (in which I have taken part), how about we return to normalcy where in a thread about Maru, we talk about Maru, and in a thread about Serral, we stay on Serral, without being ridiculed as "echo chambers", and thereby try to be generally positive/constructive? Basically a truce, at least until the next tournament
I actually find the discussion quite fascinating and informative. I think it's properly informed me over the years to be more partial to Maru being GOAT than Serral, although its extremely close and I go back and forth on it myself.
I think at least these conversations have sharpened my beliefs, and hopefully others, on the best (and worst) arguments people make on behalf of Serral or Maru. The best arguments for Serral are him absolutely dominating pretty much every player to have played in the last 6 years (including Rogue/Maru + Show Spoiler + He only has like a 51% win record vs Rogue overall, but offline he's 4-0 in series (!) and 10-2 in games (!!!!), and the vast majority of people who don't think Serral is the GOAT seem to prefer offline tournaments over anything. As to Maru, at worst for Serral they were even 2018-2021 and then Serral absolutely destroys Maru after.
Weak-to-okay arguments for Maru are him doing good even in periods of bad balance, the competitive scene being weaker, and balance arguments. But it's hard because the "bad balance" period was really just a year or so, not that long a period, and Maru's most significant achievements happened in the same exact competitive "decline" as Serral. + Show Spoiler + Yes, Maru had a great pre-2017 resume. But let's not exaggerate and say he was like a GOAT candidate or even really close. He was #12 or #13 or so on stuchio's mid-2015 GOAT list, and even if you count in 2016 he would probably be 10-7 at best.
And then in terms of "counter" arguments I think it's completely fair to find important statements like (1) Serral has never won a GSL, but also find important that (2) Maru's GSLs do mean less considering Serral has not been competing in them and he's been on average the best player in the last six years. I also think it's completely fair, of course, that Maru's remarkable lack of winning a world championship or even premier international offline tournament (although WESG is a very important exception + Show Spoiler + Star Wars is cool too but lots of top players didn't participate
All that said, extremely close. And people make great arguments and, just as valuably, sometimes worse arguments.
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Northern Ireland25538 Posts
On May 30 2024 22:20 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2024 20:19 goldensail wrote:Guys, I'm pretty sure at this point, most things that can be said about Maru vs. Serral being the #1 GOAT have been said. And let's not kid ourselves - basically no one is convincing anyone else. Instead of endless bickering (in which I have taken part), how about we return to normalcy where in a thread about Maru, we talk about Maru, and in a thread about Serral, we stay on Serral, without being ridiculed as "echo chambers", and thereby try to be generally positive/constructive? Basically a truce, at least until the next tournament I actually find the discussion quite fascinating and informative. I think it's properly informed me over the years to be more partial to Maru being GOAT than Serral, although its extremely close and I go back and forth on it myself. I think at least these conversations have sharpened my beliefs, and hopefully others, on the best (and worst) arguments people make on behalf of Serral or Maru. The best arguments for Serral are him absolutely dominating pretty much every player to have played in the last 6 years (including Rogue/Maru + Show Spoiler + He only has like a 51% win record vs Rogue overall, but offline he's 4-0 in series (!) and 10-2 in games (!!!!), and the vast majority of people who don't think Serral is the GOAT seem to prefer offline tournaments over anything. As to Maru, at worst for Serral they were even 2018-2021 and then Serral absolutely destroys Maru after. , his unparalleled consistency, ridiculous set of tournament victories (and yes, online tournaments are still important in the modern SC2 competitive environment), and his pure "terror" factor that he's had pretty much since 2018 and has never really been replicated by anyone else. The best arguments for Maru are his longevity, teamleague record, that he does stuff with Terran no one else is able to do or even close, and paired with the fact he's been either the second or third best player in the last six years, and not really significantly behind Serral or Rogue in that regard. Weak-to-okay arguments for Maru are him doing good even in periods of bad balance, the competitive scene being weaker, and balance arguments. But it's hard because the "bad balance" period was really just a year or so, not that long a period, and Maru's most significant achievements happened in the same exact competitive "decline" as Serral. + Show Spoiler + Yes, Maru had a great pre-2017 resume. But let's not exaggerate and say he was like a GOAT candidate or even really close. He was #12 or #13 or so on stuchio's mid-2015 GOAT list, and even if you count in 2016 he would probably be 10-7 at best. . There's too much to talk on the pure balance discussion so I won't get into that, but obviously people will have different views on the extent of that and whether it should play a role at all. And then in terms of "counter" arguments I think it's completely fair to find important statements like (1) Serral has never won a GSL, but also find important that (2) Maru's GSLs do mean less considering Serral has not been competing in them and he's been on average the best player in the last six years. I also think it's completely fair, of course, that Maru's remarkable lack of winning a world championship or even premier international offline tournament (although WESG is a very important exception + Show Spoiler + Star Wars is cool too but lots of top players didn't participate ) works against him as well, particularly since I believe those tournaments have been on average the most important in the post-2017 SC2 competitive ecosystem. All that said, extremely close. And people make great arguments and, just as valuably, sometimes worse arguments.
Excellently put sir!
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On May 30 2024 22:20 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2024 20:19 goldensail wrote:Guys, I'm pretty sure at this point, most things that can be said about Maru vs. Serral being the #1 GOAT have been said. And let's not kid ourselves - basically no one is convincing anyone else. Instead of endless bickering (in which I have taken part), how about we return to normalcy where in a thread about Maru, we talk about Maru, and in a thread about Serral, we stay on Serral, without being ridiculed as "echo chambers", and thereby try to be generally positive/constructive? Basically a truce, at least until the next tournament I actually find the discussion quite fascinating and informative. I think it's properly informed me over the years to be more partial to Maru being GOAT than Serral, although its extremely close and I go back and forth on it myself. I think at least these conversations have sharpened my beliefs, and hopefully others, on the best (and worst) arguments people make on behalf of Serral or Maru. The best arguments for Serral are him absolutely dominating pretty much every player to have played in the last 6 years (including Rogue/Maru + Show Spoiler + He only has like a 51% win record vs Rogue overall, but offline he's 4-0 in series (!) and 10-2 in games (!!!!), and the vast majority of people who don't think Serral is the GOAT seem to prefer offline tournaments over anything. As to Maru, at worst for Serral they were even 2018-2021 and then Serral absolutely destroys Maru after. , his unparalleled consistency, ridiculous set of tournament victories (and yes, online tournaments are still important in the modern SC2 competitive environment), and his pure "terror" factor that he's had pretty much since 2018 and has never really been replicated by anyone else. The best arguments for Maru are his longevity, teamleague record, that he does stuff with Terran no one else is able to do or even close, and paired with the fact he's been either the second or third best player in the last six years, and not really significantly behind Serral or Rogue in that regard. Weak-to-okay arguments for Maru are him doing good even in periods of bad balance, the competitive scene being weaker, and balance arguments. But it's hard because the "bad balance" period was really just a year or so, not that long a period, and Maru's most significant achievements happened in the same exact competitive "decline" as Serral. + Show Spoiler + Yes, Maru had a great pre-2017 resume. But let's not exaggerate and say he was like a GOAT candidate or even really close. He was #12 or #13 or so on stuchio's mid-2015 GOAT list, and even if you count in 2016 he would probably be 10-7 at best. . There's too much to talk on the pure balance discussion so I won't get into that, but obviously people will have different views on the extent of that and whether it should play a role at all. And then in terms of "counter" arguments I think it's completely fair to find important statements like (1) Serral has never won a GSL, but also find important that (2) Maru's GSLs do mean less considering Serral has not been competing in them and he's been on average the best player in the last six years. I also think it's completely fair, of course, that Maru's remarkable lack of winning a world championship or even premier international offline tournament (although WESG is a very important exception + Show Spoiler + Star Wars is cool too but lots of top players didn't participate ) works against him as well, particularly since I believe those tournaments have been on average the most important in the post-2017 SC2 competitive ecosystem. All that said, extremely close. And people make great arguments and, just as valuably, sometimes worse arguments.
(sigh) I really didn't want to start this again. But since you are fairly dismissive of balance, let me ask a few questions:
1. Do you believe we have had perfect balance?
2. If so, why did the Balance team feel they have to fix PvT balance by nerfing Terran?
3. If not, which race is the strongest?
For what it's worth I actually agree with a fair bit of what you said above.
Anyway, let's see what happens in Dallas.
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On May 31 2024 01:25 goldensail wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2024 22:20 Pandain wrote:On May 30 2024 20:19 goldensail wrote:Guys, I'm pretty sure at this point, most things that can be said about Maru vs. Serral being the #1 GOAT have been said. And let's not kid ourselves - basically no one is convincing anyone else. Instead of endless bickering (in which I have taken part), how about we return to normalcy where in a thread about Maru, we talk about Maru, and in a thread about Serral, we stay on Serral, without being ridiculed as "echo chambers", and thereby try to be generally positive/constructive? Basically a truce, at least until the next tournament I actually find the discussion quite fascinating and informative. I think it's properly informed me over the years to be more partial to Maru being GOAT than Serral, although its extremely close and I go back and forth on it myself. I think at least these conversations have sharpened my beliefs, and hopefully others, on the best (and worst) arguments people make on behalf of Serral or Maru. The best arguments for Serral are him absolutely dominating pretty much every player to have played in the last 6 years (including Rogue/Maru + Show Spoiler + He only has like a 51% win record vs Rogue overall, but offline he's 4-0 in series (!) and 10-2 in games (!!!!), and the vast majority of people who don't think Serral is the GOAT seem to prefer offline tournaments over anything. As to Maru, at worst for Serral they were even 2018-2021 and then Serral absolutely destroys Maru after. , his unparalleled consistency, ridiculous set of tournament victories (and yes, online tournaments are still important in the modern SC2 competitive environment), and his pure "terror" factor that he's had pretty much since 2018 and has never really been replicated by anyone else. The best arguments for Maru are his longevity, teamleague record, that he does stuff with Terran no one else is able to do or even close, and paired with the fact he's been either the second or third best player in the last six years, and not really significantly behind Serral or Rogue in that regard. Weak-to-okay arguments for Maru are him doing good even in periods of bad balance, the competitive scene being weaker, and balance arguments. But it's hard because the "bad balance" period was really just a year or so, not that long a period, and Maru's most significant achievements happened in the same exact competitive "decline" as Serral. + Show Spoiler + Yes, Maru had a great pre-2017 resume. But let's not exaggerate and say he was like a GOAT candidate or even really close. He was #12 or #13 or so on stuchio's mid-2015 GOAT list, and even if you count in 2016 he would probably be 10-7 at best. . There's too much to talk on the pure balance discussion so I won't get into that, but obviously people will have different views on the extent of that and whether it should play a role at all. And then in terms of "counter" arguments I think it's completely fair to find important statements like (1) Serral has never won a GSL, but also find important that (2) Maru's GSLs do mean less considering Serral has not been competing in them and he's been on average the best player in the last six years. I also think it's completely fair, of course, that Maru's remarkable lack of winning a world championship or even premier international offline tournament (although WESG is a very important exception + Show Spoiler + Star Wars is cool too but lots of top players didn't participate ) works against him as well, particularly since I believe those tournaments have been on average the most important in the post-2017 SC2 competitive ecosystem. All that said, extremely close. And people make great arguments and, just as valuably, sometimes worse arguments. (sigh) I really didn't want to start this again. But since you are fairly dismissive of balance, let me ask a few questions: 1. Do you believe we have had perfect balance? 2. If so, why did the Balance team feel they have to fix PvT balance by nerfing Terran? 3. If not, which race is the strongest? For what it's worth I actually agree with a fair bit of what you said above. Anyway, let's see what happens in Dallas.
Hate to break it to you but your opinion, pandain's, or mine about imbalance is totally irrelevant cause we're newbies
When you're not qualified to talk about something, just don't, makes you look smarter and less pathetic
Bringing balance into a goat argument is especially just low class, and pretty desperate
Unless someone like Lambo, harstem, or heromarine wants to come in here and give breakdowns on how they perceived balance for the past few years, it's pointless to discuss
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On May 31 2024 01:35 Comedy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2024 01:25 goldensail wrote:On May 30 2024 22:20 Pandain wrote:On May 30 2024 20:19 goldensail wrote:Guys, I'm pretty sure at this point, most things that can be said about Maru vs. Serral being the #1 GOAT have been said. And let's not kid ourselves - basically no one is convincing anyone else. Instead of endless bickering (in which I have taken part), how about we return to normalcy where in a thread about Maru, we talk about Maru, and in a thread about Serral, we stay on Serral, without being ridiculed as "echo chambers", and thereby try to be generally positive/constructive? Basically a truce, at least until the next tournament I actually find the discussion quite fascinating and informative. I think it's properly informed me over the years to be more partial to Maru being GOAT than Serral, although its extremely close and I go back and forth on it myself. I think at least these conversations have sharpened my beliefs, and hopefully others, on the best (and worst) arguments people make on behalf of Serral or Maru. The best arguments for Serral are him absolutely dominating pretty much every player to have played in the last 6 years (including Rogue/Maru + Show Spoiler + He only has like a 51% win record vs Rogue overall, but offline he's 4-0 in series (!) and 10-2 in games (!!!!), and the vast majority of people who don't think Serral is the GOAT seem to prefer offline tournaments over anything. As to Maru, at worst for Serral they were even 2018-2021 and then Serral absolutely destroys Maru after. , his unparalleled consistency, ridiculous set of tournament victories (and yes, online tournaments are still important in the modern SC2 competitive environment), and his pure "terror" factor that he's had pretty much since 2018 and has never really been replicated by anyone else. The best arguments for Maru are his longevity, teamleague record, that he does stuff with Terran no one else is able to do or even close, and paired with the fact he's been either the second or third best player in the last six years, and not really significantly behind Serral or Rogue in that regard. Weak-to-okay arguments for Maru are him doing good even in periods of bad balance, the competitive scene being weaker, and balance arguments. But it's hard because the "bad balance" period was really just a year or so, not that long a period, and Maru's most significant achievements happened in the same exact competitive "decline" as Serral. + Show Spoiler + Yes, Maru had a great pre-2017 resume. But let's not exaggerate and say he was like a GOAT candidate or even really close. He was #12 or #13 or so on stuchio's mid-2015 GOAT list, and even if you count in 2016 he would probably be 10-7 at best. . There's too much to talk on the pure balance discussion so I won't get into that, but obviously people will have different views on the extent of that and whether it should play a role at all. And then in terms of "counter" arguments I think it's completely fair to find important statements like (1) Serral has never won a GSL, but also find important that (2) Maru's GSLs do mean less considering Serral has not been competing in them and he's been on average the best player in the last six years. I also think it's completely fair, of course, that Maru's remarkable lack of winning a world championship or even premier international offline tournament (although WESG is a very important exception + Show Spoiler + Star Wars is cool too but lots of top players didn't participate ) works against him as well, particularly since I believe those tournaments have been on average the most important in the post-2017 SC2 competitive ecosystem. All that said, extremely close. And people make great arguments and, just as valuably, sometimes worse arguments. (sigh) I really didn't want to start this again. But since you are fairly dismissive of balance, let me ask a few questions: 1. Do you believe we have had perfect balance? 2. If so, why did the Balance team feel they have to fix PvT balance by nerfing Terran? 3. If not, which race is the strongest? For what it's worth I actually agree with a fair bit of what you said above. Anyway, let's see what happens in Dallas. Hate to break it to you but your opinion, pandain's, or mine about imbalance is totally irrelevant cause we're newbies When you're not qualified to talk about something, just don't, makes you look smarter and less pathetic Bringing balance into a goat argument is especially just low class, and pretty desperate Unless someone like Lambo, harstem, or heromarine wants to come in here and give breakdowns on how they perceived balance for the past few years, it's pointless to discuss
Well this argument isn't quite right, because taken to your extreme then the average observer couldn't say that balance ever had an impact on tournament victories, even in clear examples like late WoL or blink-stalker HotS PvT. + Show Spoiler + And for what it's worth, I used to be GM in WoL, so I think I know enough to be able to have an opinion of some kind on balance. But it doesn't even matter if I never was.
To be clear for goldensail, I didn't "dismiss" the balance argument. I just think it's the exact kind of topic that's too subjective, and lacks clear objective criteria or evidences, that it's hard to convince others of. It's fine if you have a position on it personally. But there's no real way to objectively prove that Serral would have won less if Zerg was slightly weaker in some way. Or whether Serral is "more or less skilled" than say Maru in some kind of abstract way, assuming such an analysis is even possible.
I don't think any of Serral's victories have ever clearly been the result of abusing broken things, like Rogue's numerous swarm-host/nydus world championships or Dark's 2019 Blizzcon victory. At most he would do queen walks sometimes, but he definitely never did it as much as others. Serral's victories have by far just come from him being extremely skilled, such as brute-force ZvT or late game ZvP, and it's pretty unquestionable that no other Zerg has been able to do those same things to that degree. Of course, like people have mentioned, Serral inherently benefits from the game being broken even if he doesn't abuse those things himself, but at that point it's impossible to really say to what extent balance is playing a role.
And importantly, Serral's two most dominant time periods were when Zerg was not strong: 2018 (where balance was pretty agreed to be even), and late 2023/now (where Zerg is even thought to be weak, if anything). So you definitely can not say that the only reason he's winning is balance if he's been his absolute best in periods where balance is not playing the same role.
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France12886 Posts
On May 31 2024 01:35 Comedy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2024 01:25 goldensail wrote:On May 30 2024 22:20 Pandain wrote:On May 30 2024 20:19 goldensail wrote:Guys, I'm pretty sure at this point, most things that can be said about Maru vs. Serral being the #1 GOAT have been said. And let's not kid ourselves - basically no one is convincing anyone else. Instead of endless bickering (in which I have taken part), how about we return to normalcy where in a thread about Maru, we talk about Maru, and in a thread about Serral, we stay on Serral, without being ridiculed as "echo chambers", and thereby try to be generally positive/constructive? Basically a truce, at least until the next tournament I actually find the discussion quite fascinating and informative. I think it's properly informed me over the years to be more partial to Maru being GOAT than Serral, although its extremely close and I go back and forth on it myself. I think at least these conversations have sharpened my beliefs, and hopefully others, on the best (and worst) arguments people make on behalf of Serral or Maru. The best arguments for Serral are him absolutely dominating pretty much every player to have played in the last 6 years (including Rogue/Maru + Show Spoiler + He only has like a 51% win record vs Rogue overall, but offline he's 4-0 in series (!) and 10-2 in games (!!!!), and the vast majority of people who don't think Serral is the GOAT seem to prefer offline tournaments over anything. As to Maru, at worst for Serral they were even 2018-2021 and then Serral absolutely destroys Maru after. , his unparalleled consistency, ridiculous set of tournament victories (and yes, online tournaments are still important in the modern SC2 competitive environment), and his pure "terror" factor that he's had pretty much since 2018 and has never really been replicated by anyone else. The best arguments for Maru are his longevity, teamleague record, that he does stuff with Terran no one else is able to do or even close, and paired with the fact he's been either the second or third best player in the last six years, and not really significantly behind Serral or Rogue in that regard. Weak-to-okay arguments for Maru are him doing good even in periods of bad balance, the competitive scene being weaker, and balance arguments. But it's hard because the "bad balance" period was really just a year or so, not that long a period, and Maru's most significant achievements happened in the same exact competitive "decline" as Serral. + Show Spoiler + Yes, Maru had a great pre-2017 resume. But let's not exaggerate and say he was like a GOAT candidate or even really close. He was #12 or #13 or so on stuchio's mid-2015 GOAT list, and even if you count in 2016 he would probably be 10-7 at best. . There's too much to talk on the pure balance discussion so I won't get into that, but obviously people will have different views on the extent of that and whether it should play a role at all. And then in terms of "counter" arguments I think it's completely fair to find important statements like (1) Serral has never won a GSL, but also find important that (2) Maru's GSLs do mean less considering Serral has not been competing in them and he's been on average the best player in the last six years. I also think it's completely fair, of course, that Maru's remarkable lack of winning a world championship or even premier international offline tournament (although WESG is a very important exception + Show Spoiler + Star Wars is cool too but lots of top players didn't participate ) works against him as well, particularly since I believe those tournaments have been on average the most important in the post-2017 SC2 competitive ecosystem. All that said, extremely close. And people make great arguments and, just as valuably, sometimes worse arguments. (sigh) I really didn't want to start this again. But since you are fairly dismissive of balance, let me ask a few questions: 1. Do you believe we have had perfect balance? 2. If so, why did the Balance team feel they have to fix PvT balance by nerfing Terran? 3. If not, which race is the strongest? For what it's worth I actually agree with a fair bit of what you said above. Anyway, let's see what happens in Dallas. Hate to break it to you but your opinion, pandain's, or mine about imbalance is totally irrelevant cause we're newbies When you're not qualified to talk about something, just don't, makes you look smarter and less pathetic Bringing balance into a goat argument is especially just low class, and pretty desperate Unless someone like Lambo, harstem, or heromarine wants to come in here and give breakdowns on how they perceived balance for the past few years, it's pointless to discuss
I mean I view myself as a better sc2 player than Harstem overall in terms of talent (despite achieving way less), that doesn’t mean my opinion is wrong (or right)
Authority arguments are kinda dumb by definition, that’s not how science works
Even a kid could be right about something, without being able to explain why
That’s why there are things like peers reviews in science.
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On May 31 2024 02:49 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2024 01:35 Comedy wrote:On May 31 2024 01:25 goldensail wrote:On May 30 2024 22:20 Pandain wrote:On May 30 2024 20:19 goldensail wrote:Guys, I'm pretty sure at this point, most things that can be said about Maru vs. Serral being the #1 GOAT have been said. And let's not kid ourselves - basically no one is convincing anyone else. Instead of endless bickering (in which I have taken part), how about we return to normalcy where in a thread about Maru, we talk about Maru, and in a thread about Serral, we stay on Serral, without being ridiculed as "echo chambers", and thereby try to be generally positive/constructive? Basically a truce, at least until the next tournament I actually find the discussion quite fascinating and informative. I think it's properly informed me over the years to be more partial to Maru being GOAT than Serral, although its extremely close and I go back and forth on it myself. I think at least these conversations have sharpened my beliefs, and hopefully others, on the best (and worst) arguments people make on behalf of Serral or Maru. The best arguments for Serral are him absolutely dominating pretty much every player to have played in the last 6 years (including Rogue/Maru + Show Spoiler + He only has like a 51% win record vs Rogue overall, but offline he's 4-0 in series (!) and 10-2 in games (!!!!), and the vast majority of people who don't think Serral is the GOAT seem to prefer offline tournaments over anything. As to Maru, at worst for Serral they were even 2018-2021 and then Serral absolutely destroys Maru after. , his unparalleled consistency, ridiculous set of tournament victories (and yes, online tournaments are still important in the modern SC2 competitive environment), and his pure "terror" factor that he's had pretty much since 2018 and has never really been replicated by anyone else. The best arguments for Maru are his longevity, teamleague record, that he does stuff with Terran no one else is able to do or even close, and paired with the fact he's been either the second or third best player in the last six years, and not really significantly behind Serral or Rogue in that regard. Weak-to-okay arguments for Maru are him doing good even in periods of bad balance, the competitive scene being weaker, and balance arguments. But it's hard because the "bad balance" period was really just a year or so, not that long a period, and Maru's most significant achievements happened in the same exact competitive "decline" as Serral. + Show Spoiler + Yes, Maru had a great pre-2017 resume. But let's not exaggerate and say he was like a GOAT candidate or even really close. He was #12 or #13 or so on stuchio's mid-2015 GOAT list, and even if you count in 2016 he would probably be 10-7 at best. . There's too much to talk on the pure balance discussion so I won't get into that, but obviously people will have different views on the extent of that and whether it should play a role at all. And then in terms of "counter" arguments I think it's completely fair to find important statements like (1) Serral has never won a GSL, but also find important that (2) Maru's GSLs do mean less considering Serral has not been competing in them and he's been on average the best player in the last six years. I also think it's completely fair, of course, that Maru's remarkable lack of winning a world championship or even premier international offline tournament (although WESG is a very important exception + Show Spoiler + Star Wars is cool too but lots of top players didn't participate ) works against him as well, particularly since I believe those tournaments have been on average the most important in the post-2017 SC2 competitive ecosystem. All that said, extremely close. And people make great arguments and, just as valuably, sometimes worse arguments. (sigh) I really didn't want to start this again. But since you are fairly dismissive of balance, let me ask a few questions: 1. Do you believe we have had perfect balance? 2. If so, why did the Balance team feel they have to fix PvT balance by nerfing Terran? 3. If not, which race is the strongest? For what it's worth I actually agree with a fair bit of what you said above. Anyway, let's see what happens in Dallas. Hate to break it to you but your opinion, pandain's, or mine about imbalance is totally irrelevant cause we're newbies When you're not qualified to talk about something, just don't, makes you look smarter and less pathetic Bringing balance into a goat argument is especially just low class, and pretty desperate Unless someone like Lambo, harstem, or heromarine wants to come in here and give breakdowns on how they perceived balance for the past few years, it's pointless to discuss I mean I view myself as a better sc2 player than Harstem overall in terms of talent (despite achieving way less), that doesn’t mean my opinion is wrong (or right) Authority arguments are kinda dumb by definition, that’s not how science works Even a kid could be right about something, without being able to explain why That’s why there are things like peers reviews in science.
I don't think anybody cares what you view yourself as. You obviously aren't a better SC2 player than Harstem despite your trolly illusions of grandeur
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France12886 Posts
On May 31 2024 02:56 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2024 02:49 Poopi wrote:On May 31 2024 01:35 Comedy wrote:On May 31 2024 01:25 goldensail wrote:On May 30 2024 22:20 Pandain wrote:On May 30 2024 20:19 goldensail wrote:Guys, I'm pretty sure at this point, most things that can be said about Maru vs. Serral being the #1 GOAT have been said. And let's not kid ourselves - basically no one is convincing anyone else. Instead of endless bickering (in which I have taken part), how about we return to normalcy where in a thread about Maru, we talk about Maru, and in a thread about Serral, we stay on Serral, without being ridiculed as "echo chambers", and thereby try to be generally positive/constructive? Basically a truce, at least until the next tournament I actually find the discussion quite fascinating and informative. I think it's properly informed me over the years to be more partial to Maru being GOAT than Serral, although its extremely close and I go back and forth on it myself. I think at least these conversations have sharpened my beliefs, and hopefully others, on the best (and worst) arguments people make on behalf of Serral or Maru. The best arguments for Serral are him absolutely dominating pretty much every player to have played in the last 6 years (including Rogue/Maru + Show Spoiler + He only has like a 51% win record vs Rogue overall, but offline he's 4-0 in series (!) and 10-2 in games (!!!!), and the vast majority of people who don't think Serral is the GOAT seem to prefer offline tournaments over anything. As to Maru, at worst for Serral they were even 2018-2021 and then Serral absolutely destroys Maru after. , his unparalleled consistency, ridiculous set of tournament victories (and yes, online tournaments are still important in the modern SC2 competitive environment), and his pure "terror" factor that he's had pretty much since 2018 and has never really been replicated by anyone else. The best arguments for Maru are his longevity, teamleague record, that he does stuff with Terran no one else is able to do or even close, and paired with the fact he's been either the second or third best player in the last six years, and not really significantly behind Serral or Rogue in that regard. Weak-to-okay arguments for Maru are him doing good even in periods of bad balance, the competitive scene being weaker, and balance arguments. But it's hard because the "bad balance" period was really just a year or so, not that long a period, and Maru's most significant achievements happened in the same exact competitive "decline" as Serral. + Show Spoiler + Yes, Maru had a great pre-2017 resume. But let's not exaggerate and say he was like a GOAT candidate or even really close. He was #12 or #13 or so on stuchio's mid-2015 GOAT list, and even if you count in 2016 he would probably be 10-7 at best. . There's too much to talk on the pure balance discussion so I won't get into that, but obviously people will have different views on the extent of that and whether it should play a role at all. And then in terms of "counter" arguments I think it's completely fair to find important statements like (1) Serral has never won a GSL, but also find important that (2) Maru's GSLs do mean less considering Serral has not been competing in them and he's been on average the best player in the last six years. I also think it's completely fair, of course, that Maru's remarkable lack of winning a world championship or even premier international offline tournament (although WESG is a very important exception + Show Spoiler + Star Wars is cool too but lots of top players didn't participate ) works against him as well, particularly since I believe those tournaments have been on average the most important in the post-2017 SC2 competitive ecosystem. All that said, extremely close. And people make great arguments and, just as valuably, sometimes worse arguments. (sigh) I really didn't want to start this again. But since you are fairly dismissive of balance, let me ask a few questions: 1. Do you believe we have had perfect balance? 2. If so, why did the Balance team feel they have to fix PvT balance by nerfing Terran? 3. If not, which race is the strongest? For what it's worth I actually agree with a fair bit of what you said above. Anyway, let's see what happens in Dallas. Hate to break it to you but your opinion, pandain's, or mine about imbalance is totally irrelevant cause we're newbies When you're not qualified to talk about something, just don't, makes you look smarter and less pathetic Bringing balance into a goat argument is especially just low class, and pretty desperate Unless someone like Lambo, harstem, or heromarine wants to come in here and give breakdowns on how they perceived balance for the past few years, it's pointless to discuss I mean I view myself as a better sc2 player than Harstem overall in terms of talent (despite achieving way less), that doesn’t mean my opinion is wrong (or right) Authority arguments are kinda dumb by definition, that’s not how science works Even a kid could be right about something, without being able to explain why That’s why there are things like peers reviews in science. I don't think anybody cares what you view yourself as. You obviously aren't a better SC2 player than Harstem despite your trolly illusions of grandeur
Exactly  .
How would you try to judge balance is interesting though.
Since sc2 is all about mechanics and attention once the collective intelligence gathered knowledge about the maps / patch. There is the mind games aspect to it, as well as momentum / psychology when humans are playing (sorry MaxPax you are probably just AlphaStar  )
We can try to judge balance using tools like AI playing, but is that a good way to judge balance for humans?
That’s imo a very good question, and I don’t think I have the answer
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