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On May 31 2024 02:49 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2024 01:35 Comedy wrote:On May 31 2024 01:25 goldensail wrote:On May 30 2024 22:20 Pandain wrote:On May 30 2024 20:19 goldensail wrote:Guys, I'm pretty sure at this point, most things that can be said about Maru vs. Serral being the #1 GOAT have been said. And let's not kid ourselves - basically no one is convincing anyone else. Instead of endless bickering (in which I have taken part), how about we return to normalcy where in a thread about Maru, we talk about Maru, and in a thread about Serral, we stay on Serral, without being ridiculed as "echo chambers", and thereby try to be generally positive/constructive? Basically a truce, at least until the next tournament  I actually find the discussion quite fascinating and informative. I think it's properly informed me over the years to be more partial to Maru being GOAT than Serral, although its extremely close and I go back and forth on it myself. I think at least these conversations have sharpened my beliefs, and hopefully others, on the best (and worst) arguments people make on behalf of Serral or Maru. The best arguments for Serral are him absolutely dominating pretty much every player to have played in the last 6 years (including Rogue/Maru + Show Spoiler + He only has like a 51% win record vs Rogue overall, but offline he's 4-0 in series (!) and 10-2 in games (!!!!), and the vast majority of people who don't think Serral is the GOAT seem to prefer offline tournaments over anything. As to Maru, at worst for Serral they were even 2018-2021 and then Serral absolutely destroys Maru after. , his unparalleled consistency, ridiculous set of tournament victories (and yes, online tournaments are still important in the modern SC2 competitive environment), and his pure "terror" factor that he's had pretty much since 2018 and has never really been replicated by anyone else. The best arguments for Maru are his longevity, teamleague record, that he does stuff with Terran no one else is able to do or even close, and paired with the fact he's been either the second or third best player in the last six years, and not really significantly behind Serral or Rogue in that regard. Weak-to-okay arguments for Maru are him doing good even in periods of bad balance, the competitive scene being weaker, and balance arguments. But it's hard because the "bad balance" period was really just a year or so, not that long a period, and Maru's most significant achievements happened in the same exact competitive "decline" as Serral. + Show Spoiler + Yes, Maru had a great pre-2017 resume. But let's not exaggerate and say he was like a GOAT candidate or even really close. He was #12 or #13 or so on stuchio's mid-2015 GOAT list, and even if you count in 2016 he would probably be 10-7 at best. . There's too much to talk on the pure balance discussion so I won't get into that, but obviously people will have different views on the extent of that and whether it should play a role at all. And then in terms of "counter" arguments I think it's completely fair to find important statements like (1) Serral has never won a GSL, but also find important that (2) Maru's GSLs do mean less considering Serral has not been competing in them and he's been on average the best player in the last six years. I also think it's completely fair, of course, that Maru's remarkable lack of winning a world championship or even premier international offline tournament (although WESG is a very important exception + Show Spoiler + Star Wars is cool too but lots of top players didn't participate ) works against him as well, particularly since I believe those tournaments have been on average the most important in the post-2017 SC2 competitive ecosystem. All that said, extremely close. And people make great arguments and, just as valuably, sometimes worse arguments. (sigh) I really didn't want to start this again. But since you are fairly dismissive of balance, let me ask a few questions: 1. Do you believe we have had perfect balance? 2. If so, why did the Balance team feel they have to fix PvT balance by nerfing Terran? 3. If not, which race is the strongest? For what it's worth I actually agree with a fair bit of what you said above. Anyway, let's see what happens in Dallas. Hate to break it to you but your opinion, pandain's, or mine about imbalance is totally irrelevant cause we're newbies When you're not qualified to talk about something, just don't, makes you look smarter and less pathetic Bringing balance into a goat argument is especially just low class, and pretty desperate Unless someone like Lambo, harstem, or heromarine wants to come in here and give breakdowns on how they perceived balance for the past few years, it's pointless to discuss I mean I view myself as a better sc2 player than Harstem overall in terms of talent (despite achieving way less), that doesn’t mean my opinion is wrong (or right)
That finally explains why you think Maru is the most talented player 
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On May 31 2024 03:06 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2024 02:56 Acrofales wrote:On May 31 2024 02:49 Poopi wrote:On May 31 2024 01:35 Comedy wrote:On May 31 2024 01:25 goldensail wrote:On May 30 2024 22:20 Pandain wrote:On May 30 2024 20:19 goldensail wrote:Guys, I'm pretty sure at this point, most things that can be said about Maru vs. Serral being the #1 GOAT have been said. And let's not kid ourselves - basically no one is convincing anyone else. Instead of endless bickering (in which I have taken part), how about we return to normalcy where in a thread about Maru, we talk about Maru, and in a thread about Serral, we stay on Serral, without being ridiculed as "echo chambers", and thereby try to be generally positive/constructive? Basically a truce, at least until the next tournament I actually find the discussion quite fascinating and informative. I think it's properly informed me over the years to be more partial to Maru being GOAT than Serral, although its extremely close and I go back and forth on it myself. I think at least these conversations have sharpened my beliefs, and hopefully others, on the best (and worst) arguments people make on behalf of Serral or Maru. The best arguments for Serral are him absolutely dominating pretty much every player to have played in the last 6 years (including Rogue/Maru + Show Spoiler + He only has like a 51% win record vs Rogue overall, but offline he's 4-0 in series (!) and 10-2 in games (!!!!), and the vast majority of people who don't think Serral is the GOAT seem to prefer offline tournaments over anything. As to Maru, at worst for Serral they were even 2018-2021 and then Serral absolutely destroys Maru after. , his unparalleled consistency, ridiculous set of tournament victories (and yes, online tournaments are still important in the modern SC2 competitive environment), and his pure "terror" factor that he's had pretty much since 2018 and has never really been replicated by anyone else. The best arguments for Maru are his longevity, teamleague record, that he does stuff with Terran no one else is able to do or even close, and paired with the fact he's been either the second or third best player in the last six years, and not really significantly behind Serral or Rogue in that regard. Weak-to-okay arguments for Maru are him doing good even in periods of bad balance, the competitive scene being weaker, and balance arguments. But it's hard because the "bad balance" period was really just a year or so, not that long a period, and Maru's most significant achievements happened in the same exact competitive "decline" as Serral. + Show Spoiler + Yes, Maru had a great pre-2017 resume. But let's not exaggerate and say he was like a GOAT candidate or even really close. He was #12 or #13 or so on stuchio's mid-2015 GOAT list, and even if you count in 2016 he would probably be 10-7 at best. . There's too much to talk on the pure balance discussion so I won't get into that, but obviously people will have different views on the extent of that and whether it should play a role at all. And then in terms of "counter" arguments I think it's completely fair to find important statements like (1) Serral has never won a GSL, but also find important that (2) Maru's GSLs do mean less considering Serral has not been competing in them and he's been on average the best player in the last six years. I also think it's completely fair, of course, that Maru's remarkable lack of winning a world championship or even premier international offline tournament (although WESG is a very important exception + Show Spoiler + Star Wars is cool too but lots of top players didn't participate ) works against him as well, particularly since I believe those tournaments have been on average the most important in the post-2017 SC2 competitive ecosystem. All that said, extremely close. And people make great arguments and, just as valuably, sometimes worse arguments. (sigh) I really didn't want to start this again. But since you are fairly dismissive of balance, let me ask a few questions: 1. Do you believe we have had perfect balance? 2. If so, why did the Balance team feel they have to fix PvT balance by nerfing Terran? 3. If not, which race is the strongest? For what it's worth I actually agree with a fair bit of what you said above. Anyway, let's see what happens in Dallas. Hate to break it to you but your opinion, pandain's, or mine about imbalance is totally irrelevant cause we're newbies When you're not qualified to talk about something, just don't, makes you look smarter and less pathetic Bringing balance into a goat argument is especially just low class, and pretty desperate Unless someone like Lambo, harstem, or heromarine wants to come in here and give breakdowns on how they perceived balance for the past few years, it's pointless to discuss I mean I view myself as a better sc2 player than Harstem overall in terms of talent (despite achieving way less), that doesn’t mean my opinion is wrong (or right) Authority arguments are kinda dumb by definition, that’s not how science works Even a kid could be right about something, without being able to explain why That’s why there are things like peers reviews in science. I don't think anybody cares what you view yourself as. You obviously aren't a better SC2 player than Harstem despite your trolly illusions of grandeur Exactly  . How would you try to judge balance is interesting though. Since sc2 is all about mechanics and attention once the collective intelligence gathered knowledge about the maps / patch. There is the mind games aspect to it, as well as momentum / psychology when humans are playing (sorry MaxPax you are probably just AlphaStar  ) We can try to judge balance using tools like AI playing, but is that a good way to judge balance for humans? That’s imo a very good question, and I don’t think I have the answer
How does any of that follow from your inane postulation? You aren't as good as Harstem therefore nobody is qualified to discuss balance? Not even Maru?
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France12906 Posts
On May 31 2024 03:57 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2024 03:06 Poopi wrote:On May 31 2024 02:56 Acrofales wrote:On May 31 2024 02:49 Poopi wrote:On May 31 2024 01:35 Comedy wrote:On May 31 2024 01:25 goldensail wrote:On May 30 2024 22:20 Pandain wrote:On May 30 2024 20:19 goldensail wrote:Guys, I'm pretty sure at this point, most things that can be said about Maru vs. Serral being the #1 GOAT have been said. And let's not kid ourselves - basically no one is convincing anyone else. Instead of endless bickering (in which I have taken part), how about we return to normalcy where in a thread about Maru, we talk about Maru, and in a thread about Serral, we stay on Serral, without being ridiculed as "echo chambers", and thereby try to be generally positive/constructive? Basically a truce, at least until the next tournament I actually find the discussion quite fascinating and informative. I think it's properly informed me over the years to be more partial to Maru being GOAT than Serral, although its extremely close and I go back and forth on it myself. I think at least these conversations have sharpened my beliefs, and hopefully others, on the best (and worst) arguments people make on behalf of Serral or Maru. The best arguments for Serral are him absolutely dominating pretty much every player to have played in the last 6 years (including Rogue/Maru + Show Spoiler + He only has like a 51% win record vs Rogue overall, but offline he's 4-0 in series (!) and 10-2 in games (!!!!), and the vast majority of people who don't think Serral is the GOAT seem to prefer offline tournaments over anything. As to Maru, at worst for Serral they were even 2018-2021 and then Serral absolutely destroys Maru after. , his unparalleled consistency, ridiculous set of tournament victories (and yes, online tournaments are still important in the modern SC2 competitive environment), and his pure "terror" factor that he's had pretty much since 2018 and has never really been replicated by anyone else. The best arguments for Maru are his longevity, teamleague record, that he does stuff with Terran no one else is able to do or even close, and paired with the fact he's been either the second or third best player in the last six years, and not really significantly behind Serral or Rogue in that regard. Weak-to-okay arguments for Maru are him doing good even in periods of bad balance, the competitive scene being weaker, and balance arguments. But it's hard because the "bad balance" period was really just a year or so, not that long a period, and Maru's most significant achievements happened in the same exact competitive "decline" as Serral. + Show Spoiler + Yes, Maru had a great pre-2017 resume. But let's not exaggerate and say he was like a GOAT candidate or even really close. He was #12 or #13 or so on stuchio's mid-2015 GOAT list, and even if you count in 2016 he would probably be 10-7 at best. . There's too much to talk on the pure balance discussion so I won't get into that, but obviously people will have different views on the extent of that and whether it should play a role at all. And then in terms of "counter" arguments I think it's completely fair to find important statements like (1) Serral has never won a GSL, but also find important that (2) Maru's GSLs do mean less considering Serral has not been competing in them and he's been on average the best player in the last six years. I also think it's completely fair, of course, that Maru's remarkable lack of winning a world championship or even premier international offline tournament (although WESG is a very important exception + Show Spoiler + Star Wars is cool too but lots of top players didn't participate ) works against him as well, particularly since I believe those tournaments have been on average the most important in the post-2017 SC2 competitive ecosystem. All that said, extremely close. And people make great arguments and, just as valuably, sometimes worse arguments. (sigh) I really didn't want to start this again. But since you are fairly dismissive of balance, let me ask a few questions: 1. Do you believe we have had perfect balance? 2. If so, why did the Balance team feel they have to fix PvT balance by nerfing Terran? 3. If not, which race is the strongest? For what it's worth I actually agree with a fair bit of what you said above. Anyway, let's see what happens in Dallas. Hate to break it to you but your opinion, pandain's, or mine about imbalance is totally irrelevant cause we're newbies When you're not qualified to talk about something, just don't, makes you look smarter and less pathetic Bringing balance into a goat argument is especially just low class, and pretty desperate Unless someone like Lambo, harstem, or heromarine wants to come in here and give breakdowns on how they perceived balance for the past few years, it's pointless to discuss I mean I view myself as a better sc2 player than Harstem overall in terms of talent (despite achieving way less), that doesn’t mean my opinion is wrong (or right) Authority arguments are kinda dumb by definition, that’s not how science works Even a kid could be right about something, without being able to explain why That’s why there are things like peers reviews in science. I don't think anybody cares what you view yourself as. You obviously aren't a better SC2 player than Harstem despite your trolly illusions of grandeur Exactly . How would you try to judge balance is interesting though. Since sc2 is all about mechanics and attention once the collective intelligence gathered knowledge about the maps / patch. There is the mind games aspect to it, as well as momentum / psychology when humans are playing (sorry MaxPax you are probably just AlphaStar ) We can try to judge balance using tools like AI playing, but is that a good way to judge balance for humans? That’s imo a very good question, and I don’t think I have the answer How does any of that follow from your inane postulation? You aren't as good as Harstem therefore nobody is qualified to discuss balance? Not even Maru?
Everybody is qualified to discuss balance
Being great at something doesn’t necessarily mean that your opinion should be trusted at all times though
There are a lot of cognitive biases, that’s why there are peer reviews
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1. I don't think anyone can argue that balance (race+map) doesn't impact results - it clearly does. Let's treat that as a given.
2. I don't think anyone can argue convincingly that only pros are qualified to speak about balance. That's like a restaurant saying to its customers "you are not a chef, so you're not qualified to tell me this food is bad". If we follow this logic, then exactly how accomplished do you have to be in order to discuss balance? GM? High GM? Shin? Maru?
3. If the argument is "balance is too subjective to be used in a GOAT assessment", then it's a matter of convenience, at the most practicality, not principle. If we were actually writing a serious paper on this, we would've needed to call it out as a limitation in our methodology.
I have my view about balance, which is that Zerg is favored and increasingly so as players climb the skill curve (i.e. top Zergs amplify that advantage). My belief is based on results in the past several years, Rogue's own admission(tl.net), and my personal understanding of the game. You may well have a different opinion, but don't get angry and resort to verbal violence. I do find that Serral fans tend to hate balance discussions and immediately want to shut them down, because if balance is indeed Zerg favored, it taints Serral's win record.
If your argument is "yeah I think Zerg is a bit favored but since we can't assess the degree of impact that has on results, let's just name GOATs by race" - I'm perfectly fine with that.
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It's like the other guy said, serral actually underperformed towards the end of 2019 compared (when yes, zerg was a little bit silly with the nydus worm spam) to his better years (2018 and 2022-2024), Serral does well regardless of balance, because his strenghts are not based on gimmicks, or abusive play. The way he wins is cause he plays close to perfection. If anything there's an argument to be made that zerg favored balance hurts him because zvz is always going to be volatile because of the larva mechanic. How many games did serral lose in tragic fashion to a lesser zerg because he got roach allined by a guy with 10 drones less and he scouted it 2 seconds too late? Yes.
Bringing into the goat debate is too subjective, it can't be quantified, and there's certainly no clear case that terran was underpowered in the last couple of years. Clem has been beating serral and reynor since the end of 2020 in regionals. Zerg was only clearly OP in 2019 - because of nydus worm spam that Serral didn't abuse, nor did he get abnormaly good results during that time.
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United States1906 Posts
On May 31 2024 04:44 Comedy wrote:
It's like the other guy said, serral actually underperformed towards the end of 2019 compared (when yes, zerg was a little bit silly with the nydus worm spam) to his better years (2018 and 2022-2024), Serral does well regardless of balance, because his strenghts are not based on gimmicks, or abusive play. The way he wins is cause he plays close to perfection. If anything there's an argument to be made that zerg favored balance hurts him because zvz is always going to be volatile because of the larva mechanic. How many games did serral lose in tragic fashion to a lesser zerg because he got roach allined by a guy with 10 drones less and he scouted it 2 seconds too late? Yes.
Bringing into the goat debate is too subjective, it can't be quantified, and there's certainly no clear case that terran was underpowered in the last couple of years. Clem has been beating serral and reynor since the end of 2020 in regionals. Zerg was only clearly OP in 2019 - because of nydus worm spam that Serral didn't abuse, nor did he get abnormaly good results during that time.
I've always thought that StarCraft II is less about who does the most things right and more about who does the least things wrong. The game is incredibly punishing. Even small mistakes can lead to irrevocable leads.
Serral is just so steady. He's obviously gone up and down over his career, but when he's at his best it doesn't matter what his opponents do. I know it's a long time ago, but Dark and Rogue played their absolute best against him at BlizzCon and it didn't matter. Serral won on the margins. He forced mistakes and always had the right answers. When he turns it on and plays at his best, I don't rate anyone to beat him.
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On May 31 2024 06:02 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2024 04:44 Comedy wrote:
It's like the other guy said, serral actually underperformed towards the end of 2019 compared (when yes, zerg was a little bit silly with the nydus worm spam) to his better years (2018 and 2022-2024), Serral does well regardless of balance, because his strenghts are not based on gimmicks, or abusive play. The way he wins is cause he plays close to perfection. If anything there's an argument to be made that zerg favored balance hurts him because zvz is always going to be volatile because of the larva mechanic. How many games did serral lose in tragic fashion to a lesser zerg because he got roach allined by a guy with 10 drones less and he scouted it 2 seconds too late? Yes.
Bringing into the goat debate is too subjective, it can't be quantified, and there's certainly no clear case that terran was underpowered in the last couple of years. Clem has been beating serral and reynor since the end of 2020 in regionals. Zerg was only clearly OP in 2019 - because of nydus worm spam that Serral didn't abuse, nor did he get abnormaly good results during that time. I've always thought that StarCraft II is less about who does the most things right and more about who does the least things wrong. The game is incredibly punishing. Even small mistakes can lead to irrevocable leads. Serral is just so steady. He's obviously gone up and down over his career, but when he's at his best it doesn't matter what his opponents do. I know it's a long time ago, but Dark and Rogue played their absolute best against him at BlizzCon and it didn't matter. Serral won on the margins. He forced mistakes and always had the right answers. When he turns it on and plays at his best, I don't rate anyone to beat him.
That is precisely my feeling about Serral. He can have this aura of invincibility, which makes everything seem so effortless. There is always the "yes, and..." with his kind of play. And there is usually no flashy moment that makes you say "what a play", it is just outright dominance that no one can compete with.
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France12906 Posts
On May 31 2024 06:02 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2024 04:44 Comedy wrote:
It's like the other guy said, serral actually underperformed towards the end of 2019 compared (when yes, zerg was a little bit silly with the nydus worm spam) to his better years (2018 and 2022-2024), Serral does well regardless of balance, because his strenghts are not based on gimmicks, or abusive play. The way he wins is cause he plays close to perfection. If anything there's an argument to be made that zerg favored balance hurts him because zvz is always going to be volatile because of the larva mechanic. How many games did serral lose in tragic fashion to a lesser zerg because he got roach allined by a guy with 10 drones less and he scouted it 2 seconds too late? Yes.
Bringing into the goat debate is too subjective, it can't be quantified, and there's certainly no clear case that terran was underpowered in the last couple of years. Clem has been beating serral and reynor since the end of 2020 in regionals. Zerg was only clearly OP in 2019 - because of nydus worm spam that Serral didn't abuse, nor did he get abnormaly good results during that time. I've always thought that StarCraft II is less about who does the most things right and more about who does the least things wrong. The game is incredibly punishing. Even small mistakes can lead to irrevocable leads. Serral is just so steady. He's obviously gone up and down over his career, but when he's at his best it doesn't matter what his opponents do. I know it's a long time ago, but Dark and Rogue played their absolute best against him at BlizzCon and it didn't matter. Serral won on the margins. He forced mistakes and always had the right answers. When he turns it on and plays at his best, I don't rate anyone to beat him.
Serral is the perfect player
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On May 31 2024 06:44 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2024 06:02 Mizenhauer wrote:On May 31 2024 04:44 Comedy wrote:
It's like the other guy said, serral actually underperformed towards the end of 2019 compared (when yes, zerg was a little bit silly with the nydus worm spam) to his better years (2018 and 2022-2024), Serral does well regardless of balance, because his strenghts are not based on gimmicks, or abusive play. The way he wins is cause he plays close to perfection. If anything there's an argument to be made that zerg favored balance hurts him because zvz is always going to be volatile because of the larva mechanic. How many games did serral lose in tragic fashion to a lesser zerg because he got roach allined by a guy with 10 drones less and he scouted it 2 seconds too late? Yes.
Bringing into the goat debate is too subjective, it can't be quantified, and there's certainly no clear case that terran was underpowered in the last couple of years. Clem has been beating serral and reynor since the end of 2020 in regionals. Zerg was only clearly OP in 2019 - because of nydus worm spam that Serral didn't abuse, nor did he get abnormaly good results during that time. I've always thought that StarCraft II is less about who does the most things right and more about who does the least things wrong. The game is incredibly punishing. Even small mistakes can lead to irrevocable leads. Serral is just so steady. He's obviously gone up and down over his career, but when he's at his best it doesn't matter what his opponents do. I know it's a long time ago, but Dark and Rogue played their absolute best against him at BlizzCon and it didn't matter. Serral won on the margins. He forced mistakes and always had the right answers. When he turns it on and plays at his best, I don't rate anyone to beat him. Serral is the perfect player
The perfect *zerg* player.
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France12906 Posts
On May 31 2024 07:51 tskarzyn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2024 06:44 Poopi wrote:On May 31 2024 06:02 Mizenhauer wrote:On May 31 2024 04:44 Comedy wrote:
It's like the other guy said, serral actually underperformed towards the end of 2019 compared (when yes, zerg was a little bit silly with the nydus worm spam) to his better years (2018 and 2022-2024), Serral does well regardless of balance, because his strenghts are not based on gimmicks, or abusive play. The way he wins is cause he plays close to perfection. If anything there's an argument to be made that zerg favored balance hurts him because zvz is always going to be volatile because of the larva mechanic. How many games did serral lose in tragic fashion to a lesser zerg because he got roach allined by a guy with 10 drones less and he scouted it 2 seconds too late? Yes.
Bringing into the goat debate is too subjective, it can't be quantified, and there's certainly no clear case that terran was underpowered in the last couple of years. Clem has been beating serral and reynor since the end of 2020 in regionals. Zerg was only clearly OP in 2019 - because of nydus worm spam that Serral didn't abuse, nor did he get abnormaly good results during that time. I've always thought that StarCraft II is less about who does the most things right and more about who does the least things wrong. The game is incredibly punishing. Even small mistakes can lead to irrevocable leads. Serral is just so steady. He's obviously gone up and down over his career, but when he's at his best it doesn't matter what his opponents do. I know it's a long time ago, but Dark and Rogue played their absolute best against him at BlizzCon and it didn't matter. Serral won on the margins. He forced mistakes and always had the right answers. When he turns it on and plays at his best, I don't rate anyone to beat him. Serral is the perfect player The perfect *zerg* player.
Those games versus Rogue and Dark were incredible. Some Serral games are pure « chef d’œuvre »
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On May 31 2024 04:21 goldensail wrote:I have my view about balance, which is that Zerg is favored and increasingly so as players climb the skill curve (i.e. top Zergs amplify that advantage). My belief is based on results in the past several years, Rogue's own admission( tl.net), and my personal understanding of the game. You may well have a different opinion, but don't get angry and resort to verbal violence. I do find that Serral fans tend to hate balance discussions and immediately want to shut them down, because if balance is indeed Zerg favored, it taints Serral's win record. If your argument is "yeah I think Zerg is a bit favored but since we can't assess the degree of impact that has on results, let's just name GOATs by race" - I'm perfectly fine with that.
do not agree with you. It's 2024, with every patch since 2019 zerg struggle more and more.
Funny to use the word “dominated” or “favored” when flooded with toss in every qualifier/gm/major tournament since 2018.
GSL is the top tournament? then ask yourself how many ZvZ finals there were and how many TvT. and look how often it was Zerg in semifiale compared to T.
I think the argument “zerg is favored” hasn't been true for 5 years.
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On May 31 2024 08:39 jack_less wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2024 04:21 goldensail wrote:I have my view about balance, which is that Zerg is favored and increasingly so as players climb the skill curve (i.e. top Zergs amplify that advantage). My belief is based on results in the past several years, Rogue's own admission( tl.net), and my personal understanding of the game. You may well have a different opinion, but don't get angry and resort to verbal violence. I do find that Serral fans tend to hate balance discussions and immediately want to shut them down, because if balance is indeed Zerg favored, it taints Serral's win record. If your argument is "yeah I think Zerg is a bit favored but since we can't assess the degree of impact that has on results, let's just name GOATs by race" - I'm perfectly fine with that. do not agree with you. It's 2024, with every patch since 2019 zerg struggle more and more. Funny to use the word “dominated” or “favored” when flooded with toss in every qualifier/gm/major tournament since 2018. GSL is the top tournament? then ask yourself how many ZvZ finals there were and how many TvT. and look how often it was Zerg in semifiale compared to T. I think the argument “zerg is favored” hasn't been true for 5 years.
Zerg won more premiers from 2019-2022 than Toss or Terran even with Serral excluded. If you exclude the top of each race then they won more than both combined. That's a lot more relevant than the amount of Toss in the EU region qualifiers.
Lack of ZvZ finals in GSL is literally only because Dark and Rogue ended up on the same side of the bracket over and over for like 2 years in a row and then Rogue went to military.
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France12906 Posts
In a mmorpg I played during covid era, I named one character from a class I was wanting to learn « Joona Sotala ». That’s how much Serral has inspired me. There is the human being behind the nickname, similarly to the manga Yu Gi Oh with an Egyptian god etc. In that manga, the human is sometimes helped by an Egyptian god. I view Serral as the ideal / Egyptian god and Joona Sotala as the human being behind the « Serral » ideal / god.
In that manga, you tend to think that the ancient Egyptian god is the better Yu Gi Oh trading cards game player. But ultimately, the human Yu Gi ends up being better (despite being « just » an human, with emotions / imperfections)
To me, I view the imperfect human being Joona as a better player than « Serral ». Serral has that aura of invincibility and Joona has to take that mantle with him everytime he steps onto the stage. There is a burden with the nickname Serral. You must deliver.
Sometimes Joona fails to do so. But it’s alright. He inspired an entire generation of younger human to try and surpass Serral.
That’s why I prefer Joona to Serral.
That little guy I saw at the airport after Katowice 2022, with just a backpack. There were probably hundred people in the airport, but only a few of them knew that this little human being did something big only a few hours earlier. I watched him from afar, just smiling at how amazing it was to have seen a human play like a god only a few hours earlier, just being in the same place made me smile. I didn’t want to interrupt him for a picture. He had defeated my « chouchou » Maru in the semifinals or something. I quit the venue and watched Rogue vs Bunny from my phone in tears. I still came the day after to watch live HeroMarine vs Reynor and Serral vs Rogue. Then Serral vs Reynor. I cheered hard and shouted to Serral to destroy him. Then I felt bad for Reynor, so I started cheering for Reynor.
Ultimately Serral prevailed. It was an amazing moment. A moment I won’t forget. Rogue, HeroMarine, Reynor and Serral were on stage. But it was the human beings delivering to us an incredible show that moved me the most.
I won’t ever forget this moment. I forced myself to watch. Because usually I feel so bad and empathetic for the guy losing, that I quit the stream. But I forced myself to watch the ending in both Katowice 2022 and 2023. And it was worth it
Thank you dear humans inspiring us to enjoy StarCraft and life in general
I won’t ever forget you
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Are...are you having a moment again? Please remember, don't drink and post 
...also in the series Yugioh it is in fact not an Egyptian God, but the spirit of a pharao who inhabits Yugi. Which btw in the original manga was really meant to be a dark spirit (which is why he is often called "Yami", even though his entire thing is to be a nameless pharao who eventually gets revealed as Atem).
Also-also Yugi winning vs. Yami/Atem was probably the dumbest duel in the entire show, but anyway,
Also-also-also I don't think, culturally speaking, you can be further away from Egypt than as someone from Finland?
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France12906 Posts
On May 31 2024 10:28 Balnazza wrote:Are...are you having a moment again? Please remember, don't drink and post ...also in the series Yugioh it is in fact not an Egyptian God, but the spirit of a pharao who inhabits Yugi. Which btw in the original manga was really meant to be a dark spirit (which is why he is often called "Yami", even though his entire thing is to be a nameless pharao who eventually gets revealed as Atem). Also-also Yugi winning vs. Yami/Atem was probably the dumbest duel in the entire show, but anyway, Also-also-also I don't think, culturally speaking, you can be further away from Egypt than as someone from Finland?
I am not drunk.
It’s https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/age-regression#symptoms
I am actively rewiring my brain to another paradigm
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On May 31 2024 06:27 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2024 06:02 Mizenhauer wrote:On May 31 2024 04:44 Comedy wrote:
It's like the other guy said, serral actually underperformed towards the end of 2019 compared (when yes, zerg was a little bit silly with the nydus worm spam) to his better years (2018 and 2022-2024), Serral does well regardless of balance, because his strenghts are not based on gimmicks, or abusive play. The way he wins is cause he plays close to perfection. If anything there's an argument to be made that zerg favored balance hurts him because zvz is always going to be volatile because of the larva mechanic. How many games did serral lose in tragic fashion to a lesser zerg because he got roach allined by a guy with 10 drones less and he scouted it 2 seconds too late? Yes.
Bringing into the goat debate is too subjective, it can't be quantified, and there's certainly no clear case that terran was underpowered in the last couple of years. Clem has been beating serral and reynor since the end of 2020 in regionals. Zerg was only clearly OP in 2019 - because of nydus worm spam that Serral didn't abuse, nor did he get abnormaly good results during that time. I've always thought that StarCraft II is less about who does the most things right and more about who does the least things wrong. The game is incredibly punishing. Even small mistakes can lead to irrevocable leads. Serral is just so steady. He's obviously gone up and down over his career, but when he's at his best it doesn't matter what his opponents do. I know it's a long time ago, but Dark and Rogue played their absolute best against him at BlizzCon and it didn't matter. Serral won on the margins. He forced mistakes and always had the right answers. When he turns it on and plays at his best, I don't rate anyone to beat him. That is precisely my feeling about Serral. He can have this aura of invincibility, which makes everything seem so effortless. There is always the "yes, and..." with his kind of play. And there is usually no flashy moment that makes you say "what a play", it is just outright dominance that no one can compete with.
By the way, that's almost the exact point Reynor brought up in response to the GoaT debate in his interview with Starcraft Historian.
Specifically, Reynor said:
"Well, I think, I think people don't understand that if you play against Serral and if you play against Maru or Rogue, it's just, you know, it's different things. Sometimes against Serral, most people feel hopeless; it's like you cannot do anything. This guy just plays in a way that he leaves you no opening. Like his scouting is perfect; his late game is perfect; so what are you really playing for? Meanwhile someone like Maru and Rogue, they do a lot of mistakes. I don't want to, like, underplay them, but I think it's you know it's common knowledge that Maru has some weaknesses; Rogue has some weaknesses."
Obviously, Reynor himself has his biases, but I found it interesting to hear this from a pro, a world champion at that, who has actually faced all these players.
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On May 31 2024 15:21 Antithesis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2024 06:27 Balnazza wrote:On May 31 2024 06:02 Mizenhauer wrote:On May 31 2024 04:44 Comedy wrote:
It's like the other guy said, serral actually underperformed towards the end of 2019 compared (when yes, zerg was a little bit silly with the nydus worm spam) to his better years (2018 and 2022-2024), Serral does well regardless of balance, because his strenghts are not based on gimmicks, or abusive play. The way he wins is cause he plays close to perfection. If anything there's an argument to be made that zerg favored balance hurts him because zvz is always going to be volatile because of the larva mechanic. How many games did serral lose in tragic fashion to a lesser zerg because he got roach allined by a guy with 10 drones less and he scouted it 2 seconds too late? Yes.
Bringing into the goat debate is too subjective, it can't be quantified, and there's certainly no clear case that terran was underpowered in the last couple of years. Clem has been beating serral and reynor since the end of 2020 in regionals. Zerg was only clearly OP in 2019 - because of nydus worm spam that Serral didn't abuse, nor did he get abnormaly good results during that time. I've always thought that StarCraft II is less about who does the most things right and more about who does the least things wrong. The game is incredibly punishing. Even small mistakes can lead to irrevocable leads. Serral is just so steady. He's obviously gone up and down over his career, but when he's at his best it doesn't matter what his opponents do. I know it's a long time ago, but Dark and Rogue played their absolute best against him at BlizzCon and it didn't matter. Serral won on the margins. He forced mistakes and always had the right answers. When he turns it on and plays at his best, I don't rate anyone to beat him. That is precisely my feeling about Serral. He can have this aura of invincibility, which makes everything seem so effortless. There is always the "yes, and..." with his kind of play. And there is usually no flashy moment that makes you say "what a play", it is just outright dominance that no one can compete with. By the way, that's almost the exact point Reynor brought up in response to the GoaT debate in his interview with Starcraft Historian. Specifically, Reynor said: "Well, I think, I think people don't understand that if you play against Serral and if you play against Maru or Rogue, it's just, you know, it's different things. Sometimes against Serral, most people feel hopeless; it's like you cannot do anything. This guy just plays in a way that he leaves you no opening. Like his scouting is perfect; his late game is perfect; so what are you really playing for? Meanwhile someone like Maru and Rogue, they do a lot of mistakes. I don't want to, like, underplay them, but I think it's you know it's common knowledge that Maru has some weaknesses; Rogue has some weaknesses."Obviously, Reynor himself has his biases, but I found it interesting to hear this from a pro, a world champion at that, who has actually faced all these players.
And still Reynor has a better record against Serral than vs Maru
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On May 31 2024 17:10 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2024 15:21 Antithesis wrote:On May 31 2024 06:27 Balnazza wrote:On May 31 2024 06:02 Mizenhauer wrote:On May 31 2024 04:44 Comedy wrote:
It's like the other guy said, serral actually underperformed towards the end of 2019 compared (when yes, zerg was a little bit silly with the nydus worm spam) to his better years (2018 and 2022-2024), Serral does well regardless of balance, because his strenghts are not based on gimmicks, or abusive play. The way he wins is cause he plays close to perfection. If anything there's an argument to be made that zerg favored balance hurts him because zvz is always going to be volatile because of the larva mechanic. How many games did serral lose in tragic fashion to a lesser zerg because he got roach allined by a guy with 10 drones less and he scouted it 2 seconds too late? Yes.
Bringing into the goat debate is too subjective, it can't be quantified, and there's certainly no clear case that terran was underpowered in the last couple of years. Clem has been beating serral and reynor since the end of 2020 in regionals. Zerg was only clearly OP in 2019 - because of nydus worm spam that Serral didn't abuse, nor did he get abnormaly good results during that time. I've always thought that StarCraft II is less about who does the most things right and more about who does the least things wrong. The game is incredibly punishing. Even small mistakes can lead to irrevocable leads. Serral is just so steady. He's obviously gone up and down over his career, but when he's at his best it doesn't matter what his opponents do. I know it's a long time ago, but Dark and Rogue played their absolute best against him at BlizzCon and it didn't matter. Serral won on the margins. He forced mistakes and always had the right answers. When he turns it on and plays at his best, I don't rate anyone to beat him. That is precisely my feeling about Serral. He can have this aura of invincibility, which makes everything seem so effortless. There is always the "yes, and..." with his kind of play. And there is usually no flashy moment that makes you say "what a play", it is just outright dominance that no one can compete with. By the way, that's almost the exact point Reynor brought up in response to the GoaT debate in his interview with Starcraft Historian. Specifically, Reynor said: "Well, I think, I think people don't understand that if you play against Serral and if you play against Maru or Rogue, it's just, you know, it's different things. Sometimes against Serral, most people feel hopeless; it's like you cannot do anything. This guy just plays in a way that he leaves you no opening. Like his scouting is perfect; his late game is perfect; so what are you really playing for? Meanwhile someone like Maru and Rogue, they do a lot of mistakes. I don't want to, like, underplay them, but I think it's you know it's common knowledge that Maru has some weaknesses; Rogue has some weaknesses."Obviously, Reynor himself has his biases, but I found it interesting to hear this from a pro, a world champion at that, who has actually faced all these players. And still Reynor has a better record against Serral than vs Maru
I guess reynor should look at his record first, before he expresses how he feels. Silly Reynor.
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On May 31 2024 08:39 jack_less wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2024 04:21 goldensail wrote:I have my view about balance, which is that Zerg is favored and increasingly so as players climb the skill curve (i.e. top Zergs amplify that advantage). My belief is based on results in the past several years, Rogue's own admission( tl.net), and my personal understanding of the game. You may well have a different opinion, but don't get angry and resort to verbal violence. I do find that Serral fans tend to hate balance discussions and immediately want to shut them down, because if balance is indeed Zerg favored, it taints Serral's win record. If your argument is "yeah I think Zerg is a bit favored but since we can't assess the degree of impact that has on results, let's just name GOATs by race" - I'm perfectly fine with that. do not agree with you. It's 2024, with every patch since 2019 zerg struggle more and more. Funny to use the word “dominated” or “favored” when flooded with toss in every qualifier/gm/major tournament since 2018.
Ahhh yes! All those Protoss players, flooding all the tournaments, and winning all the championships! Not to forget about the back to back to back to back protoss winning world championships! Darn those OP evil protosses! Taking all the prize money!
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On May 31 2024 17:10 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2024 15:21 Antithesis wrote:On May 31 2024 06:27 Balnazza wrote:On May 31 2024 06:02 Mizenhauer wrote:On May 31 2024 04:44 Comedy wrote:
It's like the other guy said, serral actually underperformed towards the end of 2019 compared (when yes, zerg was a little bit silly with the nydus worm spam) to his better years (2018 and 2022-2024), Serral does well regardless of balance, because his strenghts are not based on gimmicks, or abusive play. The way he wins is cause he plays close to perfection. If anything there's an argument to be made that zerg favored balance hurts him because zvz is always going to be volatile because of the larva mechanic. How many games did serral lose in tragic fashion to a lesser zerg because he got roach allined by a guy with 10 drones less and he scouted it 2 seconds too late? Yes.
Bringing into the goat debate is too subjective, it can't be quantified, and there's certainly no clear case that terran was underpowered in the last couple of years. Clem has been beating serral and reynor since the end of 2020 in regionals. Zerg was only clearly OP in 2019 - because of nydus worm spam that Serral didn't abuse, nor did he get abnormaly good results during that time. I've always thought that StarCraft II is less about who does the most things right and more about who does the least things wrong. The game is incredibly punishing. Even small mistakes can lead to irrevocable leads. Serral is just so steady. He's obviously gone up and down over his career, but when he's at his best it doesn't matter what his opponents do. I know it's a long time ago, but Dark and Rogue played their absolute best against him at BlizzCon and it didn't matter. Serral won on the margins. He forced mistakes and always had the right answers. When he turns it on and plays at his best, I don't rate anyone to beat him. That is precisely my feeling about Serral. He can have this aura of invincibility, which makes everything seem so effortless. There is always the "yes, and..." with his kind of play. And there is usually no flashy moment that makes you say "what a play", it is just outright dominance that no one can compete with. By the way, that's almost the exact point Reynor brought up in response to the GoaT debate in his interview with Starcraft Historian. Specifically, Reynor said: "Well, I think, I think people don't understand that if you play against Serral and if you play against Maru or Rogue, it's just, you know, it's different things. Sometimes against Serral, most people feel hopeless; it's like you cannot do anything. This guy just plays in a way that he leaves you no opening. Like his scouting is perfect; his late game is perfect; so what are you really playing for? Meanwhile someone like Maru and Rogue, they do a lot of mistakes. I don't want to, like, underplay them, but I think it's you know it's common knowledge that Maru has some weaknesses; Rogue has some weaknesses."Obviously, Reynor himself has his biases, but I found it interesting to hear this from a pro, a world champion at that, who has actually faced all these players. And still Reynor has a better record against Serral than vs Maru
I don't know why Reynor feeling that way is undercut by his record in play. More to the point is that he has played against Serral a bajillion times. Even before they were teammates, they practiced together. There's lots of games between Serral and Reynor that will never have been watched by anyone, but will shape Reynor's opinion of how Serral plays and how hard it is to win against him. Meanwhile he loses percentually more against Maru, but only plays against Maru in high stakes games. His opinion is also more about the style. Maru may indeed be more prone to making errors than Serral, but also more adept at recovering from them. So Reynor might look back at those games he lost against Maru and say "I knew I was ahead when I sniped that medivac, if I had been more careful about widowmines, I would've had that game".
Maru is a very clutch player. Serral has some clutchness (it's kinda impossible not to, when at that level), but the sense he gives is not so much clutchness as much as just never even needing to be clutch, because he sledgehammers opponents to death from the very start. He's more like innovation in that sense than like Maru.
Which is better? It's not really a statement about "better". Are you better if you give the opponent the idea they can win, when really, you do sloppy nonsense earlygame because you know you can easily make it up with your superior game sense in the late game? Or are you better if you just don't take that kind of risk, precisely because you know you don't have to? They're just different approaches.
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